Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 06:06 PM	Hopefully this will not devolve into a pages long tangential flame war. I'm looking for RSE level events or non-events such as the Wheel to Tree Cosmology change or the Thunder Blessing which are major shifts in the Realms but are either ongoing or unexplained. Some RSEs like the Time of Troubles or the Dracorage came to a conclusion, so those aren't what I'm looking for. I appreciate any help you guys can give me.
Old Sage 03-04-07, 06:47 PM	Now, where did I put my notebooks... ;)
Tyrant of the Moonsea 03-04-07, 07:15 PM	The return of Bane is one
Wizard56 03-04-07, 07:23 PM	Was the return of Shade ever resolved, or is that bunch still lurking out over the desert?
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 07:42 PM	The return of Bane is one Ah, that's a good one. Was the return of Shade ever resolved, or is that bunch still lurking out over the desert? I thought they just came back to the Realms and are here to stay. It seems the Twilight War trilogy will cover further developments about the Shades, both Sharran and Maskan.
Wizard56 03-04-07, 07:47 PM	Shade does reprsent a major ongoing change, tho'.
Wizard56 03-04-07, 07:48 PM	What about the death of Blackstaff? Is that significant enough a change to matter?
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 08:04 PM	Yes, I suppose Shade does represent such a change. Just that there's a lot of "baggage" actively attached to it, including a ruling family of epic mages, the churches of several deities, the Phaerimm, hints of the Sarruhk, and a large chunk of the Netherese legacy. Not to mention the published and unpublished material on the subject, at least two novel series, numerous mentions in sourcebooks and heavy Shade involvement in the upcoming mega-adventure trilogy. Likewise, the event with Khelban seems for the most part concluded. He did his part, passed his mantle on to Tsarra, and left the twins in the care of Laeral. The network he left behind will look after the interests he so carefully watched. I guess I should be more clear in what I'm looking for, events that changed things but really have almost no published lore (and very little revealed unpublished material) about them such as the Thunder Blessing (I believe this boon was just granted with few specific details as to why) or the Return of Bane. Or retcon incidents like the Cosmology change.
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 08:05 PM	-I'm still looking for all those Potions of Longetivity...:detect: -I know, I know. Before someone says that they still do exist in the 3e Realms, I am still waiting for them to be included in a sourcebook. Any sourcebook...
Old Sage 03-04-07, 08:47 PM	Do they really have to be? Remember, as Ed has said... "Rules should never trump accumulated Realmslore (our collective imagined ‘reality’)." Thus, we can safely assume that even if PCs can’t find or get potions of longevity, or that players can’t find them in the rulebooks, doesn’t mean NPCs in the established Realms (such as Mirt, Durnan, Filfaeril, and dozens more) didn’t find and imbibe (or even store, for future use) them in the past. They're out there regardless of what current rulebooks now say.
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 08:52 PM	-I said not to use that quote! Don't anger me, or I shall teleport you to Osse! I'm going to buy a Timeshare for us down there...:D :P
Old Sage 03-04-07, 08:57 PM	I suppose I deserved that. ;)
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 09:57 PM	So any other similar events?
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 11:15 PM	So any other similar events? -The Drow, and why they can no longer inherently cast Darkness, Faerie Fire and Levitate. The entire debacle about their items was explained in Windwalker, but I don't recall anything about their natural magics, or lack thereof. -The 'Prince Lamruil and his quest to find an Elven homeland in the north' plotline was abandoned, and then somewhat tramped... -And, where did Infravision go?
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 12:06 AM	Hmm, those are a bit smaller scale but along the lines of what I'm looking for. Thanks, oh Lordly Third of the Mighty Triumvirate.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 12:08 AM	Hmm, those are a bit smaller scale but along the lines of what I'm looking for. Thanks, oh Lordly Third of the Mighty Triumvirate. -Sure, they are smaller scale to us, but think about all those Drow who are going, "WTF is going on here!?"
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 12:20 AM	Drow 1: "WTF, we roxxors the lesser?" Drow 2: "Blame it on the Woman, she's always putting us down. Fight the Power! Dual scimitars ... for everyone!"
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 02:12 AM	Was the Thunder Blessing ever given a specific reason for its start? Or did Moradin just see the decline of dwarves and decided to grant them a boost.
Zevox 03-05-07, 02:59 AM	-The Drow, and why they can no longer inherently cast Darkness, Faerie Fire and Levitate. The entire debacle about their items was explained in Windwalker, but I don't recall anything about their natural magics, or lack thereof. Eh, the former two they can still do by the rules. Unless that was changed in the Realms while I wasn't looking? Zevox
bitter thorn 03-05-07, 03:33 AM	I believe the "new" explaination of Karsus' folly somehow creating the shadow weave would be a big one.
Krash 03-05-07, 04:55 AM	-The Drow, and why they can no longer inherently cast Darkness, Faerie Fire and Levitate. -And, where did Infravision go? These phenomena are not restricted to the Realms. They occurred in GH and anyone's homebrew who decided to adopt the 3E changes wholesale. They are changes to the game rules and hence "things always were like that". Frankly, I just can't comprehend why people go into conniptions about such things. -- George Krashos
Jax_Nightstalker 03-05-07, 04:59 AM	-The Drow, and why they can no longer inherently cast Darkness, Faerie Fire and Levitate. The entire debacle about their items was explained in Windwalker, but I don't recall anything about their natural magics, or lack thereof. -The 'Prince Lamruil and his quest to find an Elven homeland in the north' plotline was abandoned, and then somewhat tramped... -And, where did Infravision go? I thought in the Windwalker book it stated the Drow were able to carry their natural magic to the surface now. And I also thought Prince Lamruil did find a new homeland for the elves on the mainland, didn't it make mention of that in the book Gate (could have gotten the title of the book wrong). The same book Mydrannor was rebuilt.
Jax_Nightstalker 03-05-07, 05:03 AM	Been wondering about that last sourse of heavy magic the City of Shade recovered and Shar took. What plots and plans does she have for that mighty relic or artifact.
Stigger 03-05-07, 09:16 AM	Well, potions of longevity did make an appearance in Blackstaff with Maskar Wands swilling one... it's a step in a hopeful direction at least.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 10:54 AM	Was the Thunder Blessing ever given a specific reason for its start? Or did Moradin just see the decline of dwarves and decided to grant them a boost. -I believe that the he just saw them declining, and decided to give 'em a boost. Eh, the former two they can still do by the rules. Unless that was changed in the Realms while I wasn't looking? Zevox -You're right. They just can levitate at will, using their own natural powers, anymore. I believe the "new" explaination of Karsus' folly somehow creating the shadow weave would be a big one. -This is impossible, as Lord Shadow utilized the Shadow Weave (as demonstrated in a short story in Realms of Shadow). Therefore, if he drew from it before I cast my spell, you cannot blame me for having created it. ;) These phenomena are not restricted to the Realms. They occurred in GH and anyone's homebrew who decided to adopt the 3E changes wholesale. They are changes to the game rules and hence "things always were like that". Frankly, I just can't comprehend why people go into conniptions about such things. -- George Krashos -As Ed has said (Thank you, Sage), "Rules should never trump accumulated Realmslore (our collective imagined ‘reality’)." I thought in the Windwalker book it stated the Drow were able to carry their natural magic to the surface now. And I also thought Prince Lamruil did find a new homeland for the elves on the mainland, didn't it make mention of that in the book Gate (could have gotten the title of the book wrong). The same book Mydrannor was rebuilt. -It did, but the Drow ability to levitate mysteriously vanished. And no, the plot with Prince Lamruil has been completely phased out and ignored, much to my dismay. Been wondering about that last sourse of heavy magic the City of Shade recovered and Shar took. What plots and plans does she have for that mighty relic or artifact. -The Karse Stone, my ever-bleeding heart...
The Ubbergeek 03-05-07, 11:32 AM	-As Ed has said (Thank you, Sage), "Rules should never trump accumulated Realmslore (our collective imagined ‘reality’)." But then, one should remember it's a D&D world, FR should not trump the metaphysic of D&D extremely.
Bolithio 03-05-07, 11:47 AM	These may be obscure - things i've wondered about: What ever happened in the Lands of Intigue? In (70'?) Amn was occupied by Ogres and Gobliniods? Was that ever sorted out? Also, what was the impact of the recovery of the Wyrmskull throne? Is the kingdom of Shanatar on the rise? This could play into/with the thunder blessing.... How many Manshoons are left?
Stigger 03-05-07, 11:57 AM	The Amnian/Sothsyllis thing has been dragging on forever it seems... it's still being fought as far as I know, with a temporary alliance to battle some Maztican transplant monsters threatening both sides... one of the few cases I'd much rather see the monsters win instead of the humans. Though it's a little off topic, did they ever resolve that 2e thing with the Yugoloth taking away demons and devils ability to teleport? Planescape I know, but I don't recall ever seeing that one resolved either.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 12:21 PM	But then, one should remember it's a D&D world, FR should not trump the metaphysic of D&D extremely. -Realmslore is first and primary, like Primus. Established fact does not arbitrarily change. Rules do change. And, remember, the Realms were a fantasy setting before the rules of Dungeons and Dragons were applied to them.
Old Sage 03-05-07, 07:27 PM	Officially, there are three Manshoons clones active -- all we know is that there's one with the Zhents. One is a vampire crimelord in Westgate -- the Night King. And one is hanging with Halaster in Undermountain. We're assuming Ed will reveal more, in time. And the tidbit from both THO and Ed - "Remember the clever words of Richard Lee Byers, at last year's GenCon Indy FR seminar: "In my father's house, there are many Manshoons." In other words, there are MORE Manshoons than 3e lore currently admits (as Ed will reveal in the fullness of time). And I'd say he's far more powerful than Fzoul, because he has fall-back plans and caches and plans set in motion far beyond Fzoul's capacity to anticipate. He may have suffered a personal setback within the Zhentarim, temporarily, but (to quote Ed of the Greenwood, hereafter): "He's MUCH more cunning and better prepared than Fzoul has ever been. Fzoul always plays the "Hi, God of the Moment, I'm Yours!" card, and that's like juggling a flaming sword: no matter how good you are, sooner or later you're going to get badly cut and burned. My money is always on Manshoon - - and remember, I created Fzoul, Manshoon, and the Zhentarim, but haven't really had the chance to properly tell any of their stories, yet. Just fragments." To this I can add: don't miss the Best of Eddie book, for a few glimpses more . . . love, THO"
Old Sage 03-05-07, 07:28 PM	Re: Current events surrounding the Sythillisian Empire. See Power of Faerun.
Stigger 03-05-07, 07:32 PM	"He's MUCH more cunning and better prepared than Fzoul has ever been. Fzoul always plays the "Hi, God of the Moment, I'm Yours!" card, and that's like juggling a flaming sword: no matter how good you are, sooner or later you're going to get badly cut and burned. Suddenly I'm feeling much more vindicated in my views on Fzoul... :D
Krash 03-05-07, 09:51 PM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;11671011-As Ed has said (Thank you, Sage), "Rules should never trump accumulated Realmslore (our collective imagined ‘reality’)." [/QUOTE] Drow having infravision, darkvision or x-ray vision has absolutely nothing to do with 'realmslore'. Drow having innate spell abilities has absolutely nothing to do with 'realmslore'. -- George Krashos
Faraer 03-05-07, 10:24 PM	They do if they're written into Realmslore as aspects of drow society and stories predicated on them; they don't if they're just fluctuating rules details which can be written off as 'fuzzy lens' rules artefacts.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 10:26 PM	Precisely. If lore is in some way written around the mechanics of a system in a way that changing those mechanics would make the lore make 'no sense,' then there is something intrinsically wrong with the changes to the mechanics (if you're considering lore to trump all).
Zevox 03-05-07, 11:33 PM	I agree with Dan Faraer here. Case in point: if Drow don't have infravision, what is Narbondel in Menzo for? Zevox
Dark Wizard 03-06-07, 12:03 AM	:: Sighs in relief drow are not even a minor part of the reason I asked the question of this thread topic, but I take note of it in case. ::
miscellany 03-06-07, 02:48 AM	-Realmslore is first and primary, like Primus. Established fact does not arbitrarily change. Rules do change. And, remember, the Realms were a fantasy setting before the rules of Dungeons and Dragons were applied to them. Just as we shouldn't forget the Realms were introduced as a D&D setting to the D&D public. The Realms status as a little-known fictional setting prior to this has no bearing on its current form. Formative Realmslore and the tone of the setting was based on the rules (as they were back in the day) prior to the setting's release to the public and after as well. The vast, vast majority of Realms gamers don't even begin to hold the rarified (that is, overly informed) views of the setting the tiny handful in this thread do. Rules inform gamers about the Realms as much as pure ‘lore’ does because elements of the Realms are predicated on those rules, no matter what the fancy ‘Ed Says So’ hand-waving implies. OK that’s the end of this tangent sorry DW! ::::::::::::::: Dwarves being able to cast spells as Wizards? Epic Magic? The fate of any Gold Dwarf-led quests to reclaim lost Halls in the northern Realms? Whither the last Ghazneth? What are the surviving Phaerim up to now? All we can think of atm. :)
Lord Karsus 03-06-07, 09:17 AM	Drow having infravision, darkvision or x-ray vision has absolutely nothing to do with 'realmslore'. Drow having innate spell abilities has absolutely nothing to do with 'realmslore'. -- George Krashos -It does when, as Zevox point out, specific Realmslore has been written to include such attributes. :: Sighs in relief drow are not even a minor part of the reason I asked the question of this thread topic, but I take note of it in case. :: -At least we are all having a coherent and educated discussion. :) The vast, vast majority of Realms gamers don't even begin to hold the rarified (that is, overly informed) views of the setting the tiny handful in this thread do. Rules inform gamers about the Realms as much as pure ‘lore’ does because elements of the Realms are predicated on those rules, no matter what the fancy ‘Ed Says So’ hand-waving implies. -That is because they are all ignorant, and misinformed, then. It is my problem that people don't research what they are talking about, or in this case, are gaming in? But, to keep with the trend of the conversation, rules do not trump established lore. If it is a well known fact that all Dwarves in the Realms have dark blue beards, and then a D&D rulebook says that Dwarves never have beards, which are we supposed to believe? It makes no sense to throw established information out the window, especially, in this case, when there are Dwarven beauty parlors in existence, who cater to Dwarves who have light blue beards, by coloring them a darker blue. Strange example...:confused: What are the surviving Phaerim up to now? -It's been mentioned that a few of them ran off to Myth Drannor, and a few of them have escaped into the Underdark.
Telagaunt 03-09-07, 03:55 AM	Shadovar and all that returning is a big ongoing event, and a rise in power for Mask is probably near. But I'd like to know wtf WotC is going to do with the Imaskari. Here they bring them 'back' for a few pages in The Underdark, and nothing yet. They were the 2nd most powerful arcane nation for humans, and first established.
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 11:07 AM	But I'd like to know wtf WotC is going to do with the Imaskari. Here they bring them 'back' for a few pages in The Underdark, and nothing yet. They were the 2nd most powerful arcane nation for humans, and first established. -Read the novel Darkvision. I'll summarize: -Deep Imaskar was ravaged by a Imaskari Pseudodeific entity called Pandorym, which was released from the Purple Palace. It was sealed away forever, and now the Deep Imaskari are going to be settling the surface of the Raurin once more...I know, I know...:nonono:
Dark Wizard 03-09-07, 09:41 PM	-At least we are all having a coherent and educated discussion. :) My statement was meant more towards my own relief due to my lack of knowledge and only a minor interest in the drow. ;) I'm neutral towards them.
Krash 03-10-07, 02:08 AM	The only "specific realmslore" that I can think of is Narbondel. If you guys are going to get hung up about a glorified clock, then you've really, really got to get some perspective on the game and the setting. -- George Krashos
Stigger 03-10-07, 02:15 AM	Well, it does take away some small part of the beauty that is the drow of the underdark... it's details like that which give a place like Menzo character and a focal point. Though it isn't just the clock, I seem to recall something about drow sculpture and painting that utilized heat in ways a normal eye couldn't see, so that you needed that thermal vision to truly appreciate it... small and ultimately inconsequential to some, but a detail that could bring alive the society to others.
Krash 03-10-07, 08:47 AM	Well, it does take away some small part of the beauty that is the drow of the underdark... it's details like that which give a place like Menzo character and a focal point. Though it isn't just the clock, I seem to recall something about drow sculpture and painting that utilized heat in ways a normal eye couldn't see, so that you needed that thermal vision to truly appreciate it... small and ultimately inconsequential to some, but a detail that could bring alive the society to others. So let me get this right: WotC shouldn't have changed infravision into darkvision for the whole D&D game because when it came to the Realms we had to remain consistent with Narbondel, drow painting and drow sculpture. And in doing so, they ruined the whole continuity of the setting or made such a travesty of it that it left you with negative feelings for what the Realms had become. If I'm overstating the situation, please tell me. If I'm not overstating the situation, then maybe you can explain why posters seem so disapproving and borderline bitter about such a miniscule retcon to the FR firmament. Like I said ... perspective. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 03-10-07, 11:41 AM	I could care less about the glorified clock, personally. I don't read RAS novels. Krash already knows my major 'beef' is with Elven High Magic. ;) Then there's the fact that Dwarves can be Wizards now with no restrictions, and their reason for not being many is based on lore that was in large part based on those restrictions in the first place, which are no longer in place any more, so there would be few cultural norms against it and.... Yeah, loopity loop. Most of my issues come in large part from WotC deciding not to modify rules more to suit FR's needs. Which is funny, because they had no problem doing that for Eberron. (Not being a bitter old FR fan here; just making an observation. Curious, really.)
Iakhovas 03-10-07, 11:51 AM	WotC can change infravision to darkvision in the rules all they want. But in the Forgotten Realms many aspects of drow society, art, and military tactics are built around their use of heat sensing vision, so in my Realms infravision still exists.
Derren S. 03-10-07, 12:18 PM	What about the Dawn Cataclysm? There is no information about it except that some gods died. Edit: Then there is also the Dragonfall War which has just started and what they meant by "Turning of the great cycle".
GothicDan 03-10-07, 12:22 PM	While I DO like the ideaa that deific events occur somewhat outside of the flow of mortal time, I WOULD like to know a little more about the event itself... And it's not just because I like Lathander.
Lord Karsus 03-10-07, 06:26 PM	So let me get this right: WotC shouldn't have changed infravision into darkvision for the whole D&D game because when it came to the Realms we had to remain consistent with Narbondel, drow painting and drow sculpture. And in doing so, they ruined the whole continuity of the setting or made such a travesty of it that it left you with negative feelings for what the Realms had become. If I'm overstating the situation, please tell me. If I'm not overstating the situation, then maybe you can explain why posters seem so disapproving and borderline bitter about such a miniscule retcon to the FR firmament. Like I said ... perspective. -- George Krashos -You are overstating it slightly. But, firstly, there was no real reason to change Drow Infravision into Darkvision. For every setting, something changed for no real reason. Had Drow been left with Infravision, we wouldn't be discussing this problem. -Now, if there was an explanation as for these changes, then things would be good. An explanation was provided for as to why Drow can bring their magic and their items up to the surface. No one really complains about that one, except for the unenlightened. -Anyway, we are upset about "minor" things like that because, as was demonstrated, specific lore has already been written to include the way things were before the rule change. It annoys me, and presumably others, when changes are made, without explanation, and the phrase, "Oh, it was always like that" is used to cover their tracks. No, obviously, it wasn't. Things just don't work like that.
Old Sage 03-10-07, 07:55 PM	Actually, the Dawn Cataclysm was dated once (161 DR), in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed (and now largely ignored) Netheril Timeline handout as I recall. Though, Eric Boyd first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be dated. Which does make it difficult to nail down somewhat "hard facts" about the event itself.
miscellany 03-10-07, 11:17 PM	-You are overstating it slightly. But, firstly, there was no real reason to change Drow Infravision into Darkvision. As George says (and Miss Miscellany says "Hello my darling from down under!): Perspective But in this case it has to do with the fact that Infravision, though abosuletly cool from a lore (i.e., Narbondel, etc...) perspective, was very problematic from a 2E rules standpoint. Remember, WotC went out of their way to solicit and gather the opinions of the 2E D&D community and also went a long ways towards gathering their own internal knowledge from 2E game designers about what did and didn't work in 2E. Infravision was one such problem. For every setting, something changed for no real reason. Had Drow been left with Infravision, we wouldn't be discussing this problem. This may be true from a subjective opinion standpoint, but is certainly not true from a factual standpoint. Aspects of the Realms were not changed willy nilly; their was always reasoning involved. OK break over from the party time to get back with the guests! :D
Lord Karsus 03-10-07, 11:33 PM	But in this case it has to do with the fact that Infravision, though abosuletly cool from a lore (i.e., Narbondel, etc...) perspective, was very problematic from a 2E rules standpoint. Infravision was one such problem. -Personally, Infravision is simpler than Darkvision. In my games, I've used both Infravision, and Darkvision, and in my experiences, the former was less problematic. With Darkvision, too many questions came up: "Can X see Y?" "If X is the color of Y, can Z still see it.", and so on. Weird. Did this happen with anyone else? Aspects of the Realms were not changed willy nilly; their was always reasoning involved. -So long as there is no explanation, lore-wise, as to how/why their vision suddenly changed, it is going to be a willy nilly change to many, myself included. Again, I'll restate what I said earlier: I have no problem with Drow having Darkvision. The problem lies with the fact that there was absolutely no attempt to rectify the situation lorewise, where the precident was already set that Drow had Infravision. Simply saying, "Oh, it was always like that, don't worry" isn't a solution...
Krash 03-11-07, 12:00 AM	Having dealt with more than a few lore conundrums in my time, I struggle to see how an in-game lore reason could be provided for such a game mechanics change. And Iakhovas has the right of it. If you don't like it, just keep infravision. And Miscellany has the double-right of it - infravision was a major pain in the posterior. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 03-11-07, 12:44 AM	Having dealt with more than a few lore conundrums in my time, I struggle to see how an in-game lore reason could be provided for such a game mechanics change. -Specifically for the Drow, Lolth could have blessed her children a final time, bestowing upon them Darkvision, before falling Silent, knowing that their new gift would be of use to them in the months where she was to be dormant. Of course, that only explains why Drow have Darkvision, but it's a start, you know?
GothicDan 03-11-07, 03:11 AM	Personally, I never had a problem with Infravision in 11-ish years of gaming... If anything, the 'problems' of 2E - those subjective bits that could be argued one way or the other - is what gave things a little wriggle-room for players and DMs... What was the problem with it, if I may ask? It made more sense from a purely physical point of view, at least (looking at real life biological organisms).
Argaud 03-11-07, 03:29 AM	-It did, but the Drow ability to levitate mysteriously vanished. And no, the plot with Prince Lamruil has been completely phased out and ignored, much to my dismay. They can still levitate if they take the right (drow only) feat.
miscellany 03-11-07, 04:40 AM	Personally, I never had a problem with Infravision in 11-ish years of gaming... If anything, the 'problems' of 2E - those subjective bits that could be argued one way or the other - is what gave things a little wriggle-room for players and DMs... What was the problem with it, if I may ask? It made more sense from a purely physical point of view, at least (looking at real life biological organisms).Hello Dan please don't ignore this post! Rant: Infravision and Why It Should Be Destroyed (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/infravision.html) is one argument against Infravision. I think since you are into physics and all that then this may be of interest to you from an objective/analytical standpoint. :teach:
Stigger 03-11-07, 01:09 PM	So let me get this right: WotC shouldn't have changed infravision into darkvision for the whole D&D game because when it came to the Realms we had to remain consistent with Narbondel, drow painting and drow sculpture. And in doing so, they ruined the whole continuity of the setting or made such a travesty of it that it left you with negative feelings for what the Realms had become. If I'm overstating the situation, please tell me. If I'm not overstating the situation, then maybe you can explain why posters seem so disapproving and borderline bitter about such a miniscule retcon to the FR firmament. Like I said ... perspective. -- George Krashos Really overstating... I read the points explaining why infravision was booted for 3e a long time ago, and largely I agree with them from a rational point of view. They were open to a lot of potential abuse, and so it's for the best that they were ditched, I have absolutely no arguements there. The negation of narbondel and drow art were hardly game killers. But, my point was it would have been nice to get an explanation as to how these were affected by the introduction of Darkvision and the removal of Infravision. Would it have been too much to ask that someone added a couple of sentences to the Drow section of Races of Faerun to address the issue and toss a bit of fluff our way, alongside all the other fluff and mechanics? Maybe they'll stick it in DotU 3.5, and I really hope they do, but it was such a distinctive aspect of the drow it took away some of the lustre from the setting... fluff details don't make the game, but they do make the setting, breathing life into it.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 01:54 PM	Oh, look. SKR wrote it. The guy who I disagree with almost everything concerning the game about. (And I'm not the only one.) Infravision has a fixed range (usually 60 ft.). This meats that a red dragon standing in the dark 70 ft. away from a dwarf cannot be seen by the dwarf, even though it should be putting out plenty of heat to reach into the dwarf's 60 ft. infravision range. To account for these effects, infravision would need rules to determine how far out a creature's heat signature extends beyond its body (suggestion: I'd add it's smallest face statistic in each direction as a rough guideline). Of course, that means that infravision is not longer a simple flat value -- more work for the DM. Slightly incorrect. Infrared light is JUST LIKE ANY OTHER LIGHT. You could make the same argument for any sort of vision, Darkvision or otherwise, in the D&D game. Everything in reality radiates energy of one sort or another. Infrared light is just a different part of the spectrum. If infravision is sensitive enough to be able to identify facial features and such, then infravision must be sensitive enough to see tracks on the ground from a warm creature (as we established above). AD&D doesn't have any rules for how long it takes for these tracks to fade. It also doesn't have any rules for the difficulty of tracking in this manner. DM jurisdiction? An Efreeti's footprints would last longer than an Ogre's; a Halfling's would last shorter than both. Where's the headache? Basically, everything he has a problem with is what I referred to LIKING in my above posts. I love having leeway in rules that make it obviously a DM's call. He's calling for us to erase Infravision because it requires a DM to use common sense and analytical techniques.... Okay. If that's what he wants, that's cool. That's just not the kind of game I would play.
Derren S. 03-11-07, 04:42 PM	He's calling for us to erase Infravision because it requires a DM to use common sense and analytical techniques.... Okay. If that's what he wants, that's cool. That's just not the kind of game I would play. He calls to remove Infravision because it is too comlicated to do it right. And while some old school DMs favor the idea of having absolute, arbitrary power it isn't "in" anymore to have vague rules which require guessing by the DM.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 07:36 PM	It isn't "in" to you, or others; to others, it might be. And if a DM is GUESSING anything, than you have a bigger problem. A DM's job should be telling an interesting story and making sure his players are enjoying it. There's no guessing involved; at least, not unless it's educated, thought-out guessing.
miscellany 03-11-07, 08:28 PM	I (that is, Mr. Miscellany and not Miss Miscellany) can personally attest to having experienced just such problems with Infravision while playing under second edition rules. Truth be told the disruption to play was not consistent (i.e., every session) but Infravision was enough of an issue that it crept into every 2E game I participated in and almost always brought play to a standstill. DM's had to guess because not every Jr. High or High Scool geek in the 90's was also a math nerd or science freak such that they could make an educated guess at Infravision's finer details on the spot during play. :)
GothicDan 03-11-07, 08:31 PM	If they didn't have some science geekery about them, most likely, they would have never had any problems anyway, and they would have run it exactly as was stated in the rulebooks, without any thoughts given to the idea that infravision could potentially extend beyond normal boundaries due to ambient energy sources. :) The fact that it is also represented in actual nature is also a bonus in my book. Of course, it's pretty much a given I'd disagree with SKR. Over on Candlekeep, after giving my opinion about a sourcebook (after being specifically encouraged to do so, and in no way specifically targetting anyone or using any insulting language), he basically came back with a reply so scathing and full of personal insults (referencing me to a Simpsons character I have no clue about, since I don't watch the show) that it could only make me laugh. It was certainly not the sort of reply I'd have hoped for from a professional game designer encouraging individuality in game styles.
miscellany 03-11-07, 11:33 PM	Of course, it's pretty much a given I'd disagree with SKR. Over on Candlekeep, after giving my opinion about a sourcebook (after being specifically encouraged to do so, and in no way specifically targetting anyone or using any insulting language), he basically came back with a reply so scathing and full of personal insults (referencing me to a Simpsons character I have no clue about, since I don't watch the show) that it could only make me laugh. It was certainly not the sort of reply I'd have hoped for from a professional game designer encouraging individuality in game styles. I always thought it was hugely ironic that someone who absolutely refuses to apologize for their frequently harsh and often off-topic, thread-killing opinions would take even the tiniest umbrage when given a taste of their own medicine. You wrote a harsh criticism of the Mysteries of the Moonsea Book and lumped your insensitive opinions and generalizations of all other FR gamers into that criticism to boot, and quite frankly it got shredded in public by a game designer who’s more than once faced and fought off the exact same opinions leveled from harsher critics than you in other public forums. Did you really expect that you were immune from a response or that you could give an elitist opinion about others and not expect someone (anyone) to defend those same people? Anyone interested in the exchanges can read them on pages 14 and 15 of this thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5107&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=.) at Candlekeep. See for yourselves. :P
GothicDan 03-11-07, 11:48 PM	I'm simply deleting what I wrote here. There are several Candlekeep patrons here, and I don't think they'd want me bringing more of the politics there, here. Read it and see for yourselves. If that's the sort of game designer designing 3E stuff, responding to harsh (and accurate) criticisms of product, after another designer asked me to give my opinion... Then I don't want that kind of designer doing so. We see dozens of messages on these boards about Ed, bashing him and critisizing him and his NPCs, yet he has always kept himself composed and above such childish insults. I'll leave it at that, and leave SKR with his opinions, and me with mine. Mr. Miscellany, if you want to carry this on in private, go ahead. Hit me up on messenger if you wish. I don't think you're an unintelligent person, just someone whose opinions differ so vastly from my own so as to make seeing eye to eye impossible. I admit I'm a pretentious, elitist bastard when it comes to gaming, and I say exactly what I want. SKR claims to be otherwise, but in the above thread, proves himself to be the same as me, on the opposite end of the spectrum. Rather like liberal vs. conservative politics. All too often the liberals are as zealous as their hated enemies.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 12:33 AM	Like many of the RPG designers, I don't keep up on many of the novels, so unless someone points something out ahead of time, I'm pretty unaware of it. -To which Brian James replies, :nonono: -I'm gonna have to agree with him there. -Anyway, I never liked SKR too much, but now I dislike him even more. Mostly because of these statements- You have feelings of nostalgia about the setting, sure, but complaining that "these whippersnappers don't respect the setting?" Who are YOU to tell them how to play THEIR campaign? If they want to run heroes of the Purple Dragons fighting on the side of Cormyr against the ancient elfdragon, who are you to tell them they're wrong? If they want to run an all-Thayan campaign that's pure diplomacy and backstabbing and politics and they don't touch dice more than once every 4 sessions, who are you to tell them they're wrong? If they want to run a Waterdhavian LARP about trade matters with Skullport, who are you to tell them they're wrong? If Timmy, age 13, wants to have the Shades blow up Cormyr, Sembia, and the Dalelands and have the rest of the campaign be PC dragons fighting against the Netherese "interlopers," who are you to tell him he's wrong? If Timmy is 45 instead of 13, who are you to tell him he's wrong? It's HIS campaign, not yours WotC_ should respect the setting and what has come before, as should the people who _write_ for WotC in the setting. But individual players and gaming groups don't need to respect the setting at all ... they bought the book, they can play it in the official timeline, or loot it for game mechanics, or use one of the countries in a Dragonlance campaign, or play in FR and blow up the moon and kill most of the gods and have all the mortal races replaced by angels and demons except for goblins which now have two heads. -He must be sore at the world because his product has been labled by most of us 'the crappiest 3e FR supplement out there'...
Dark Wizard 03-12-07, 01:07 AM	Interesting. Doesn't seem like you laughed all that much to that response. Since you admit your elitist view, and more importantly your elitist actions, I'm not sure why you're surprised. You can have a good build up even if nothing overt is tossed into an argument. I found it amusing but in the other way, no offense. The drow once again claim another thread (even if they're not the only ones affected by this change). I might have to reconsider my neutral stance on them. :(
Stigger 03-12-07, 01:13 AM	Interesting read... personally I thought both of you brought up some pretty valid points at various points. It's a matter of perspective, neither one was right, neither one was wrong per se... and it's not like Dan doesn't make his opinions known, like it or not. I may not like all of what Dan says, or care for the views he holds, but I can at the least respect them for their honesty. But since I've been coming here, I don't recall Dan ever pretending he was anything but elitist, to say nothing of opinionated. It's nothing new, and at least he has the guts to admit it. But really Miscellany, it was an entirely cheap shot at Dan. Very unworthy, and rather on the childlishly spiteful side of things from where I'm sitting.
miscellany 03-12-07, 01:25 AM	-He must be sore at the world because his product has been labled by most of us 'the crappiest 3e FR supplement out there'... Hardly. If pressed I'd say that I doubt he could care less. He's always been a proponent of 'do what you want' with your game. But really Miscellany, it was an entirely cheap shot at Dan. Very unworthy, and rather on the childlishly spiteful side of things from where I'm sitting. hELLO (oops, sorry) Hello Stigger, I won't falt your or deny you your opinion. It's cool. I have to be honest though: We (Miss Miscellany and I) actually waited a few minutes and sat and talked about it before deciding to research the links. <deletes more flame-worthy, albeit true, words> Instead I'll say I'm proud of Dan for recognizing himself. I really do hope that any and all of us who hold hatred, anger, frustration or anything approaching a desire to post anything personal about a game designer will think twice before doing so. It just kills threads and ends up causing a lot unpleasant "it should have just been left well alone and in the past where it belongs"-type baggage to be dredged up for all to see. :cool: ps: The housewarming was a great success! Guitar Hero II was a hit and Miss Miscellany kicks ass at that game! Why yes my good man I do now stop typing and come to bed and let me thank you for...;) Good night boys and girls!
Dark Wizard 03-12-07, 01:26 AM	-He must be sore at the world because his product has been labled by most of us 'the crappiest 3e FR supplement out there'... I don't think that shows anything beyond SKR thinking/expecting what most other designers think/expect, including Ed. I also don't think we should keep putting Ed on a pedestal as some infallible god-designer. He's a great designer but still human and would probably be the first to admit it. What was uncalled for was the way SKR made his Simpsons reference. We also have to keep in mind, while we know each other to the extent we know each other over these boards, most of the designers don't know us as well as that. That is also not to say designers can just say anything if they don't know you. It's also a double edged sword; just knowing how someone normally acts doesn't excuse them from their behavior entirely.
Krash 03-12-07, 01:38 AM	Really overstating... I read the points explaining why infravision was booted for 3e a long time ago, and largely I agree with them from a rational point of view. They were open to a lot of potential abuse, and so it's for the best that they were ditched, I have absolutely no arguements there. The negation of narbondel and drow art were hardly game killers. But, my point was it would have been nice to get an explanation as to how these were affected by the introduction of Darkvision and the removal of Infravision. Would it have been too much to ask that someone added a couple of sentences to the Drow section of Races of Faerun to address the issue and toss a bit of fluff our way, alongside all the other fluff and mechanics? Maybe they'll stick it in DotU 3.5, and I really hope they do, but it was such a distinctive aspect of the drow it took away some of the lustre from the setting... fluff details don't make the game, but they do make the setting, breathing life into it. I hear you and understand your desire re having a lore reason for changes in game mechanics. But remember this - the last time that occurred, the Realms experienced the ToT. There are fans to this day who say that the ToT never happened in "their game" or detest it for what it did. I personally think that huge, overblown, in your face RSEs to explain a change from, for example, infravision to darkvision, is fishing for sardines with dynamite. There are some things that need a lore reason. Phenomena such as the shadow weave have seen lore reasons attached to 'changes'. But if the Realms had to provide a worldwide event/divine intervention/warp in the Weave/bringing back a race/planar invasion etc etc for every game mechanics change from 2E to 3E, then I can only imagine what hue and cry that would create. Sometimes, in some circumstances, "it was always that way" is a far better option. -- George Krashos
Stigger 03-12-07, 01:42 AM	Wasn't asking for a RSE, just something about how Faerie Fire interacts with darkvision or something, or clay that has certain 'color' properties when seen under darkvision that the Drow prefer when making sculpture or the bases of pigments. Sure it works as a houserule just fine, but stuff like that could go a long way to helping to soothe the old fluff vs new mechanic issue. Okay, having thought about it, the Faerie Fire interaction with darkvision thing could be a problem mechanically, but maybe a story about a bunch of young drow playing a prank on the city one day, and the matrons just liking the display for aesthetic reasons and it evolved into a tradition would be enough, maybe adding in that a lot of citizens use it to tell time as the spell fades once they got used to the timing of it would make more sense.
Dark Wizard 03-12-07, 01:58 AM	Ironically, I'm asking for such breaks in Realms reality precisely because I want to set up a subtle RSE. Fortunately for all of us, none of that matters to anyone else. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 10:15 AM	I hear you and understand your desire re having a lore reason for changes in game mechanics. But remember this - the last time that occurred, the Realms experienced the ToT. There are fans to this day who say that the ToT never happened in "their game" or detest it for what it did. I personally think that huge, overblown, in your face RSEs to explain a change from, for example, infravision to darkvision, is fishing for sardines with dynamite. -See, the particular issue we're talking about right now doesn't need a huge, ground-shaking RSE. It's only a minor problem, so it only deserves a minor explanation. Sometimes, in some circumstances, "it was always that way" is a far better option. -This isn't my favorite answer, but it has been used and it does work. Take the Shadow Weave for example. But, previous examples have said that Drow had Infravision, so the idea that "Oh, they always had Darkvision" doesn't work in this case. That is what actually happened, and now we're trying to figure out how this effects some of their civilization that was "designed" around infravision. If something actually never existed, and then was added in with, "Oh, it was always there"- that works. But, it doesn't when the thing in question already existed.
GothicDan 03-12-07, 11:24 AM	I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that SKR's reply was a little inappropriate. Of course, I knew that when it was posted, because I had a number of people at the 'Keep' coming to me telling as much...
Renvale999 03-12-07, 01:18 PM	What about the death of Blackstaff? Is that significant enough a change to matter? Good riddance. He was annoying, pompous, arrogant and deserved his fate. I hope Mystra sells his soul to Asmodues for a copper piece. Sorry, I just hate that guy with a passion. Any novel I've read about him I've just wanted to rip him in two.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 02:39 PM	I hope Mystra sells his soul to Asmodues for a copper piece. -Well, if that's the case, it's a good thing that Khelben went to Arvandor, and not to Mystra's Realm. ;)
Renvale999 03-12-07, 03:09 PM	-Well, if that's the case, it's a good thing that Khelben went to Arvandor, and not to Mystra's Realm. ;) In that case I hope Lloth steals his soul out of spite and tortures him for all eternity. Who the h*ll is he to make a deal on behalf of the Harpers with Fzoul Chembryl? If I was Elminster I would have fried him where he stood, or atleast petioned Mystra to have his chosen status revoked and banished from the Realms(atleast that's what happened in my realms). Making a deal with the chosen of a god that would like nothing more than to rip your goddess in two. Idiot.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 04:07 PM	In that case I hope Lloth steals his soul out of spite and tortures him for all eternity. Who the h*ll is he to make a deal on behalf of the Harpers with Fzoul Chembryl? If I was Elminster I would have fried him where he stood, or atleast petioned Mystra to have his chosen status revoked and banished from the Realms(atleast that's what happened in my realms). Making a deal with the chosen of a god that would like nothing more than to rip your goddess in two. Idiot. -There is a U2 song called She Moves in Mysterious Ways. Khelben works in mysterious ways. Of all of the Chosen of Mystra, I appreciate Khelben the most. He is certainly the most..."human" of them all. He does things not for the good of now, but for the good of the future. He doesn't want short-term growth; he wants long-term growth.
Stigger 03-12-07, 04:33 PM	This is true... one of my favorites really, only like Storm more really. As to his deal with Fzoul... perhaps it was to buy time for him to bring Semmemon and Ashemmi out of the Zhentarim's orbit, something I'd definitely consider worth it in the long run considering just how often Semmemon was cleaning up messes the others made.
Renvale999 03-12-07, 08:14 PM	This is true... one of my favorites really, only like Storm more really. As to his deal with Fzoul... perhaps it was to buy time for him to bring Semmemon and Ashemmi out of the Zhentarim's orbit, something I'd definitely consider worth it in the long run considering just how often Semmemon was cleaning up messes the others made. He orcharestrated the destruction of a baelnorn, a GOOD lich how many of those are running around?? He handed a Fzoul an artifact and said "Here, go kill one of the good guys" I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer that the greater good does not outweigh the life of a single person, especially a good one. And secondly he made a deal with Fzoul for the Zhents not to expand if the harpers stayed out of their business?? How incredibly stupid could you possibly be? Did he honestly believe that Fzoul would honor that deal? Did he not realize that Fzoul would twist it to his own ends and use the lull in harper activity to expand Zhent influence..oh yeah it's for the greater good...well guess what moron of a mage, the greater good may not be around if you keep handing evil the easy way on a silver platter. Moron.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 08:58 PM	I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer that the greater good does not outweigh the life of a single person, especially a good one. -That's a very short-sighted way to see things. If you suddenly found yourself shunted into the past, sitting on a rooftop, looking at Adolf Hitler through your sniper rifle scope, you wouldn't pull the trigger? Or, if he's too evil to really make a good example, how about...Batman? :devil: Sure, he's good, but how many innocent lives has he affected in a negative way? And secondly he made a deal with Fzoul for the Zhents not to expand if the harpers stayed out of their business?? How incredibly stupid could you possibly be? Did he honestly believe that Fzoul would honor that deal? Did he not realize that Fzoul would twist it to his own ends and use the lull in harper activity to expand Zhent influence..oh yeah it's for the greater good...well guess what moron of a mage, the greater good may not be around if you keep handing evil the easy way on a silver platter. -Again, that example is still too recent, and we don't know all of Khelben's motives. For all we know, the Zhents might have been on the cusp of discovering an ancient Imaskari doomsday device, and by drawing their attention elsewhere, Khelben saved all of Toril.
Zevox 03-12-07, 10:00 PM	He orcharestrated the destruction of a baelnorn, a GOOD lich how many of those are running around?? He handed a Fzoul an artifact and said "Here, go kill one of the good guys" I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer that the greater good does not outweigh the life of a single person, especially a good one. And secondly he made a deal with Fzoul for the Zhents not to expand if the harpers stayed out of their business?? How incredibly stupid could you possibly be? Did he honestly believe that Fzoul would honor that deal? Did he not realize that Fzoul would twist it to his own ends and use the lull in harper activity to expand Zhent influence..oh yeah it's for the greater good...well guess what moron of a mage, the greater good may not be around if you keep handing evil the easy way on a silver platter. This, my friend, is why Khelben is Lawful Neutral, not good. He wouldn't agree with you at all, since he looks more towards the big picture than to every little good he could possibly do. Especially the greatest good to him, which was his life's work revealed in Blackstaff. I wouldn't be surprised if much of his reasoning for his deals with the Zhents was to make sure that went off without a hitch, given it was his entire reason for living. If you ask me, all this doesn't make him a bad character, nor a stupid one, just one with quite different opinions and goals from you or me. Zevox
Whisper_Swiftblade 03-12-07, 10:30 PM	Was the Thunder Blessing ever given a specific reason for its start? Or did Moradin just see the decline of dwarves and decided to grant them a boost. well it was a blessing, maybe he was just proud of them and thought a reward was in order. As for the talk of Khelben, at times he seemed to make some poor choices but they did pretty much pay off in the long run, as he did accomplish his life's goal, which in trooth did turn out to benifit those around him greatly. also in Blackstaff he did spend one of his last breathing moments telling off some snooty elves (you know the "we live realy long and have worked magic forever so we are inherently better than everyone elce" types) so in my book he can pretty much do no wrong.
Stigger 03-13-07, 12:44 AM	Especially the greatest good to him, which was his life's work revealed in Blackstaff. I wouldn't be surprised if much of his reasoning for his deals with the Zhents was to make sure that went off without a hitch, given it was his entire reason for living. Presumably he backed up that deal with magical measures to insure honesty on both sides... and presumably it bought time for that life's work to grow and have some breathing space before having to deal with the Zhents head on. Not sure what price that wouldn't be worth to him.
Renvale999 03-13-07, 09:55 AM	Presumably he backed up that deal with magical measures to insure honesty on both sides... and presumably it bought time for that life's work to grow and have some breathing space before having to deal with the Zhents head on. Not sure what price that wouldn't be worth to him. And how many more people have been put into slavery and tortured to death now by the Zhents since the Harpers are not intervening? Ask them if they give a d*mn about Khelben's life's work? Just because he believed he was in the right, doesn't make him right. Just because you're a chosen of mystra doesn't make all your decisions automatically correct. IMO, Khelben made some p*ss poor decisions and people across the realms are going to be suffering for it for a long time. But I'm done ranting, sorry. :D
Lord Karsus 03-13-07, 09:56 AM	well it was a blessing, maybe he was just proud of them and thought a reward was in order. -For doing what? Nothing? ;)
Whisper_Swiftblade 03-13-07, 03:03 PM	-For doing what? Nothing? ;) preying often, being generaly goodly folks, working hard to become the best dwarfs they can be...... What's not to be proud of?
Lord Karsus 03-13-07, 03:44 PM	preying often, being generaly goodly folks, working hard to become the best dwarfs they can be...... What's not to be proud of? -I don't know, maybe the fact that they have yet to really make a meaningful contribution to Faerűnian politics in a long while. I'm just personally biased against Dwarves, though. -And, Renvale, you never answered my question. :(
Stigger 03-13-07, 04:36 PM	Why would the dwarven pantheons whose name just completely escaped my brain care about the dwarves contributing to Faerunian politics, or society in general? Wouldn't they care more about internal matters, considering how insular they tend to be? As to the Khelben thing... I'm not sure its such a bad thing. The destruction of the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings wasn't exactly a bad thing. The Harpers reactions to it were uncalled for... personally I think Bran should have been killed for the crap he was pulling, and perhaps a reasonable level headed inquiry launched. That it led to a witch hunt within the Harpers was just the proof to me that the Harpers of Berdusk were morally bankrupt in a lot of respects and becoming more like the Zhents they claimed to oppose. Feh, don't feel like ranting.
Lord Karsus 03-13-07, 05:03 PM	Why would the dwarven pantheons whose name just completely escaped my brain care about the dwarves contributing to Faerunian politics, or society in general? Wouldn't they care more about internal matters, considering how insular they tend to be? -They wouldn't. Like I said, I am just biased against Dwarves. What I meant, originally, was that the Dwarves have done nothing to merit the Thunder Blessing, that we know of. -And they are called the Morndinsamman. Just think "Moradin's the man!", and you've almost got it. ;)
Stigger 03-13-07, 05:40 PM	Yeah, well, just blame Dumathoin for us not knowing the whys of it, and just accept that for whatever reason, Moradin thought they were and leave it at that. :D
Dark Wizard 03-13-07, 06:43 PM	-And they are called the Morndinsamman. Just think "Moradin's the man!", and you've almost got it. ;) Or "Moradin 's a man." ;) -They wouldn't. Like I said, I am just biased against Dwarves. What I meant, originally, was that the Dwarves have done nothing to merit the Thunder Blessing, that we know of. - Yeah, well, just blame Dumathoin for us not knowing the whys of it, and just accept that for whatever reason, Moradin thought they were and leave it at that. I can't leave well enough alone since the Thunder Blessing provides me with an excellent hook.
Renvale999 03-13-07, 07:08 PM	-I don't know, maybe the fact that they have yet to really make a meaningful contribution to Faerűnian politics in a long while. I'm just personally biased against Dwarves, though. -And, Renvale, you never answered my question. :( What question?
Lord Karsus 03-13-07, 07:19 PM	What question? -You said, I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer that the greater good does not outweigh the life of a single person, especially a good one. -To which I responded, -That's a very short-sighted way to see things. If you suddenly found yourself shunted into the past, sitting on a rooftop, looking at Adolf Hitler through your sniper rifle scope, you wouldn't pull the trigger? Or, if he's too evil to really make a good example, how about...Batman? :devil: Sure, he's good, but how many innocent lives has he affected in a negative way?
Renvale999 03-13-07, 07:29 PM	-You said, -To which I responded, Okay you're starting to scare me with the "I post right after you" thing. and to answer your question. As far as Adolf Hitler goes and the whole batman thing goes, what I really should have said is I don't believe in killing a good person for the greater good. It's like the question, would you kill a small innocent girl to cure all forms of cancer? My answer would be no, because there is always another, better way. Regardless of how many people I save, I couldn't live with the little girls death. But that's just me. My beliefs are the reason I don't play paladins, because I play them TOO GOOD, according to my friends.
Lord Karsus 03-13-07, 07:48 PM	Okay you're starting to scare me with the "I post right after you" thing. -I also know where you live...:incog: As far as Adolf Hitler goes and the whole batman thing goes, what I really should have said is I don't believe in killing a good person for the greater good. -That's why I included Batman. He's a good guy. How many people has he killed, or have been killed because of something Batman, the good guy, has done? -This is some deep philosophical stuff. I am a utilitarian, so I would kill that little girl- I'd make it as pain free as possible. Do the most good to the most amount of people...
BrennonGoldeye 03-13-07, 08:24 PM	I can't believe I missed this thread. Busy busy. Only time for two quick responses. I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer that the greater good does not outweigh the life of a single person, especially a good one. I fully agree. Then again a good person would willingly give his life for the greater good(as he saw it). Even a chaotic good one. Thats good. -That's a very short-sighted way to see things. If you suddenly found yourself shunted into the past, sitting on a rooftop, looking at Adolf Hitler through your sniper rifle scope, you wouldn't pull the trigger? No, I wouldn't. It would be even more short-sighted to do so. Um..Boss...:D
Renvale999 03-13-07, 08:30 PM	-I also know where you live...:incog: -That's why I included Batman. He's a good guy. How many people has he killed, or have been killed because of something Batman, the good guy, has done? -This is some deep philosophical stuff. I am a utilitarian, so I would kill that little girl- I'd make it as pain free as possible. Do the most good to the most amount of people... Then we agree to disagree, an innocent life is an innocent life and cannot be taken for any reason, whether for good or evil. But we're de-railing the thread
Stigger 03-14-07, 12:44 AM	No such thing as innocent life in my book, but that's a different story, and would definitely derail the thread... so, yeah, agree to disagree would be best. As to the actual topic... I too am beginning to wonder what happened to that last Gazneth (sp?) from the Cormyr series. Doubt it's been revealed yet, but it is unsolved as far as I know.
Dark Wizard 03-17-07, 07:36 PM	Thank you all for your responses. With your help, I've compiled a decent size list of relevant events for my project. I would like to expand this a little to include vaguely defined cosmic events like the Dawn Cataclysm. Events like the Time of Troubles and the Dawn Cataclysm are the most obvious cosmic events, what other similarly grand scaled events have been mentioned in lore?
Lord Karsus 03-18-07, 11:34 PM	Events like the Time of Troubles and the Dawn Cataclysm are the most obvious cosmic events, what other similarly grand scaled events have been mentioned in lore? -Though to a much lesser degree, the circumstance by which Jergal felt "bored" by being a powerful deity, and giving his portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul hasn't been really given too much illumination.
Aegis_Chiron 03-19-07, 02:35 AM	Not knowing how to quote officially... Ironically, I'm asking for such breaks in Realms reality precisely because I want to set up a subtle RSE. Fortunately for all of us, none of that matters to anyone else. I believe the original topic was unexplained changes in the realms of a major nature... I've been wondering about the whole Moonstar/Harper division. What deal did Khelben make with the Zhents that so infuriated the rest of the harpers? How did the harper 'civil war' take place... I've always loved the harper group and was irritated to hear about the division without any supporting information... *sweet, the quoting worked!!!*
Old Sage 03-19-07, 03:03 AM	Aegis, you'll want a copy of Cloak & Dagger. It addresses the Harper Schism, the creation of the Tel'Teukiira [Moonstars], Khelben's dealings, and the Harper reaction to the Schism itself. As well, Steven Schend has discussed the relations between the two groups, somewhat, over at Candlekeep. See the compiled reply files.
Stigger 03-19-07, 04:45 AM	Which was still infuriatingly vague as to the nature of Khelben's reasons really... should look at Mr. Schend's replies though, might offer some insight.
Old Sage 03-19-07, 08:34 AM	Which may have been, somewhat, intentional. I'll note that Steven always intended to fully explore Khelben's dealings and the Harper Schism through future Realmslore -- which we're hoping he'll have the opportunity to realise at some point.
Dark Wizard 03-19-07, 11:16 AM	-Though to a much lesser degree, the circumstance by which Jergal felt "bored" by being a powerful deity, and giving his portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul hasn't been really given too much illumination. True, that digs deep into the roots of the current pantheon. Jergal generally is a mysterious character despite mentions throughout Realmslore. Which may have been, somewhat, intentional. I'll note that Steven always intended to fully explore Khelben's dealings and the Harper Schism through future Realmslore -- which we're hoping he'll have the opportunity to realise at some point. I could definitely see ample material for more novels by Steven Schend about the friends, allies, and enemies of Khelban uncovering and continuing his extensive plans and dealings. The sort of revelations that shows you how the Blackstaff thought of everything and the kitchen sink.
ericlboyd 03-19-07, 12:49 PM	True, that digs deep into the roots of the current pantheon. Jergal generally is a mysterious character despite mentions throughout Realmslore. FWIW, I did a non-canon interpretation on the origins of Jergal in my conversion notes for Paizo's "Age of Worms" adventure path. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/. --Eric
Old Sage 03-19-07, 08:02 PM	I could definitely see ample material for more novels by Steven Schend about the friends, allies, and enemies of Khelban uncovering and continuing his extensive plans and dealings. The sort of revelations that shows you how the Blackstaff thought of everything and the kitchen sink. Indeed. Given Khelben's knack planning things in the long run, I'd imagine he's the type of guy whose had several contingencies in place for quite some time (in case of his death). These contingencies likely ensure that a "status-quo" of sorts remains for quite some time after his unfortunate departure. To put it simply, Khelben would definitely plan ahead to ensure his own death wouldn't immediately disrupt any of his other long-term plans/agreements/pacts with others. He'd work to make life as stable as possible for his lady love, his apprentices, Waterdeep, and Tsarra herself, I'd imagine.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 11:21 PM	-Another unresolved change: What's going on with Lord Shadow and Telamont? KtM PMed with with yet more evidence that Telamont cannot be Lord Shadow. It's pretty damning, actually. Makes you wonder, where did Lord Shadow go, where did Telamont come from, and what were the circumstances behind the switch (or whatever else it might have been).
Alediran 03-20-07, 12:52 PM	-Another unresolved change: What's going on with Lord Shadow and Telamont? KtM PMed with with yet more evidence that Telamont cannot be Lord Shadow. It's pretty damning, actually. Makes you wonder, where did Lord Shadow go, where did Telamont come from, and what were the circumstances behind the switch (or whatever else it might have been). Teaser, I want to know!!! :P (What if Lord Shadow was subsumed by Shar and that gave her the power over the Shadow Weave, thanks to LS knowledge about shadow magic?) As for Khelben planning for the long run, it's obvious that this comes from his elven blood, no normal human could be so good at patience.
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 07:05 PM	Teaser, I want to know!!! :P (What if Lord Shadow was subsumed by Shar and that gave her the power over the Shadow Weave, thanks to LS knowledge about shadow magic?) -Here are KtM's findings: Shade enclave founded in -2846 DR Shadow born in -645 DR From Lords of Darkness Quote: Telamont has been the High Prince of Shade for as long as anyone living in the city can recall. Only his sons and trusted associates know that he is as old as the city itself and has ruled since it was first built at his direction. How'd he build the city over 2000 years before he was born? Also....that pretty much defeats all of the authors explainations of "Shadow went to the plane of shadow and perhaps he came back and took over the city.". Also, why in the hell would he subject himself to Karsus's rules and live on his enclave if he already had his own friggin' enclave? Quote: Well over two millennia old, Telamont preserves his life by means of powerful magic, such as wish spells. He'd only be "well over 2k old" if he was born when Shadow was stated as being born. Since he built the city in -2846 however, he's far far older. He's 4,221.
BrennonGoldeye 03-20-07, 08:35 PM	He's actually a guy named Vinnie hired by the Twisted Rune. :tiphat:
Krash 03-20-07, 10:32 PM	-Another unresolved change: What's going on with Lord Shadow and Telamont? KtM PMed with with yet more evidence that Telamont cannot be Lord Shadow. It's pretty damning, actually. Makes you wonder, where did Lord Shadow go, where did Telamont come from, and what were the circumstances behind the switch (or whatever else it might have been). Posted before I saw that KtM's info had been put up. Ignore me.:) -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 08:48 AM	Actually, I made a most dumb calculating mistake. LEoF, Shade was founded in -1471 DR. Edit: bloody hell. Just now noticed something else (nothing to do with current Telemont related lore).... -645 Shadow born. -664 Last of the Nether Scrolls were stolen. He studied in depth the Planus Mechanus scrolls 19 years before he was born... That's NEoM for ya... Advice: Ignore NEoM listing of Shadow's birthdate. At the moment, two things point to him being older than listed. For all we know, his birthdate is a typo (something rather prevalent in NEoM). Heck, going by NEoM, Nether the Elder was born in -30 DR and died in -32 DR...hehehehe...
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 09:32 AM	Heck, going by NEoM, Nether the Elder was born in -30 DR and died in -32 DR...hehehehe... -Allowing little children access to Chronomancy allows for strange things like that. My advice, kids- Just say no to Chronomancy. :teach:
BrennonGoldeye 03-21-07, 09:33 AM	Chronomancy is bad, umkay.
Old Sage 03-21-07, 09:59 AM	Especially when it involves a kender.
BrennonGoldeye 03-21-07, 10:53 AM	:weep: Dear dear Tas. :weep: On a side note the scene with Tas seeing Flint again is one of 3 written passages that actually made me tear up. Ah, thanks once again Marge and Tracy, whereever you are.:cheer: