Untheric pantheon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Untheric pantheon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suin Bahhar
09-01-07, 07:36 AM Can someone explain me how the pantheon led by Gilgeam came to Faerun? I understand the slaves of Imaskar held their former beliefs and gods in honor during their enslavement. Later on their gods found their people via the astral plane and sent avatars to Faerun. But were Gilgeam&Co part of the Mulhorandi / Egyptian pantheon?
BadCatMan
09-01-07, 08:31 AM No. The gods that formed the Untheric pantheon came from the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons. They shipped over in much the same way that the Egyptian pantheon did (used to be Wildspace in 2e, now the Astral?).

Assuran (aka Hoar) came from the Untheric pantheon, but it is unclear where he came from before that, as he does not appear in either the Babylonian or Sumerian pantheons, nor any others.

Tiamat is very different case. She existed in both the Babylonian and Sumerian faiths, and reappeared in the Untheric, but she also appeared as the draconic deity long before that.
ripvanwormer
09-01-07, 10:15 AM Tiamat is part of the Babylonian pantheon, but she was never part of the Sumerian pantheon.

Assuran and Gilgeam are both part of the Untheric pantheon, but neither was part of the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons in the previous world. I interpret that to mean they're both native to Faerun. Gilgeam was the son of Enlil.
BadCatMan
09-01-07, 10:19 AM I just did a quick Wiki on Tiamat, which said she was in both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat
The D&D versions would be another story...

Wasn't Gilgeam Gilgamesh? :confused:
MarkusTay63
09-01-07, 11:33 AM He was FR's VERSION of Gilgamesh, but he was native to Toril.

Asuras were a type of 'titan' (pre-god) in Vedic mythology, and later became associated with demons in Hindu Mythology, much the way the Gerek Titans and Norse Jotuns became 'evil' after their progeny took over.

Also, there is an Asura in Hyborian (Conan) Mythology. Although usually at odds with the other 'good' god of that setting, Mitra, their priests occassionally team up in order to battle the forces of Set.

You can take your pick as to where Ed/the designers got FR's Assuran, but fighting with the rest of the Untheric Pantheon sounds like the first, and being an enemy of Set sounds like the second, so perhaps he is an amalgam of the two. Where he gets his portfolio is anybody's guess.

Tiamet also exists in Judaeo-Christian Mythology as Leviathan, as does her brother Bahamut (Behemmoth). Their names were altered and roles changed when the Semites borrowed the Sumerian myths for their book. In fact, most of the stories in the Old Testament were lifted nearly word-for-word from Sumerian texts (the flood, etc)

All religions are related, if you dig deep enough; thats why they should bring back the Wheel. ;)

No. The gods that formed the Untheric pantheon came from the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons. They shipped over in much the same way that the Egyptian pantheon did (used to be Wildspace in 2e, now the Astral?).More specifically, the Untheric came over on the Galley of the Gods, described in the Encyclopedia Magica Vol. 3.
Suin Bahhar
09-02-07, 04:59 PM More specifically, the Untheric came over on the Galley of the Gods, described in the Encyclopedia Magica Vol. 3.

Ah, thanks Markus.
So who were aboard this Galley at the time? Did the egyptian gods ride a different vessel?
Were the untheric gods that landed absorbed or slain by mainly mulhorandi gods or fearunian ones? Also can it be possible Lathander has something to do with the interloper sumerian gods? According to 2ed Old Empires the states in Chessenta all have lots of relics and statues of the morninglord within their cities. He is seen as the athlete god and chessentans love athletic games.
BadCatMan
09-02-07, 09:00 PM Lathander is an old Talfiric sun god, from the Western Heartlands, Savage Frontier area. His faith migrated to Chessenta. The athletics focus itself really derived from Unther.

But if you check out his entry in Old Empires, you see a mysterious entity known as Melith commands creativity in Chessenta, not Lathander.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-717171
(Whee! I discovered a lost god!)
There are numerous theories on who Melith is: an old Jhaamdathan deity, an old Turami deity, or a later Chessentan hero-god. In any case, Lathander and other well-known gods probably moved in on Melith's faith and that of other local deities.
MarkusTay63
09-02-07, 09:24 PM Ah, thanks Markus.
So who were aboard this Galley at the time? Did the egyptian gods ride a different vessel? Re (as the manifestation of Ra was known) and his children rode in a huge war galley known as the Matet. (At night it changed into a simple barge known as the Semktet)

Both pantheons were lead hither by Ptah who was using an artifact called The Beacon of Light (described in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical). Strangely, the Untheric God's vessel was built by the Sumerian god Enki, who didn't make the trip.

Were the untheric gods that landed absorbed or slain by mainly mulhorandi gods or fearunian ones? Also can it be possible Lathander has something to do with the interloper sumerian gods? According to 2ed Old Empires the states in Chessenta all have lots of relics and statues of the morninglord within their cities. He is seen as the athlete god and chessentans love athletic games.Ptah led both pantheons, with the permission of Ao. Most of them were slain by the Orcish Pantheon, who also killed several Mulhorandi (Pharaonic) gods as well during the Orcgate Wars.
Suin Bahhar
09-03-07, 08:35 AM Wow, lathander travelled from the Heartlands (talfiric lands) all the way to Chessenta?
The orcgates allowed the orcish pantheon to travel with their worshippers immediately after opening of the big portal to their realm or did they also need some kind of vessel to circumvent Ao's rules? So these sumeric gods were no match for those primitive brute gods?
Lets see:
Sumeric gods:
Enlil, god of air (father of Gilgeam)
An, god of heaven
Assyrian, god of the sky (Assuran)
Enki, god of water and earth (father of Marduk)
Ninlil, goddes of air (mother of Gilgeam)
Ki, goddes of earth
Inanna or Ishtar, goddes of love and war (now that's a nice combo)
Marduk, god of light
Utu or Shamash, god of the sun
Nanna, goddes of the moon
Ninurta, god of ploughs (?)
Nergal, lord of death

Untheric gods:
Gilgeam god of victory
Girru (?)
Inanna, goddes of war and love
Ki, earth mother
Marduk, god of vigilince
Nanna-sin, goddes of the moon
Nergal, god of the underworld
Ramman, god of duty
Utu, god of the sun

They seem like a pretty potent bunch of gods, but they divide the portfolio of the sky into lots of special fragments. Their divine power is shared and subsequently lower? The orc pantheon (Baghtru, Ilneval, Gruumsh, Luthic, Shargaas, Yurtus) is pretty strong I guess.
Valten
09-03-07, 11:20 AM Just a quick thing, Bahamut was actually Marduk (Marduk being an alias), after defeating Tiamat for the first time he was greatly weakened and then banished by the Orc deities. He is now back and known under the alias Xymor, Dragons of Faerun being the source and corrections to what I have said are welcome.
Gray Richardson
09-03-07, 07:55 PM Marduk was actually Marduk at one time. Marduk was a Mulan deity that traveled to Toril along with the rest of the Untheric pantheon. His Torilian manifestation was killed during the Orcgate wars. Bahamut and Marduk had been friends and so Bahamut took over Marduk's name as an alias in order to tend over Marduk's worshipers, adding Marduk's worshiper base to his own and allowing him to better oppose Tiamat.

To this day, Bahamut is still better known under his Marduk persona in the Old Empires region.
Valten
09-04-07, 07:02 AM Couldn't Bahamut be Marduk even when the pantheon was on Earth? I could see this happening since Tiamat was once on earth or is it established that the real Marduk has been banished and Bahamut is under the alias of Marduk (in the old empires)?
Tyberian
09-08-07, 11:49 AM A further note needs to be mentioned. In Assyria, their chief god was Assur, a version of Marduk as they share the same stories. I think when they made the histories and pantheons they sometimes didn't pay much attention. For instance, quite some time after the death of Inanna in the orcgate wars, Ishtar left Faerun and Isis took her followers. Problem is, Ishtar and Inanna were the same deities, sharing the same mythological stories but with differing portfolios and power level.
ripvanwormer
09-09-07, 10:36 PM I just did a quick Wiki on Tiamat, which said she was in both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

I'm 90% certain that that's incorrect. Sometimes Wikipedia isn't perfect. Read the Discussion part of that article (the "Babylon versus Sumer" part), which seems to agree with me.

I'm not comfortable with the assertion that Tiamat is a "Sumerian" goddess as all the references I've seen to her (eg: Dalley - Myths from Mesopotamia, Black & Green - Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia) have been from the Babylonian Epic of Creation, and no Sumerian source (such as those from Samuel Noah Kramer) include her as Sumerian.

That's my experience as well. Tiamat's from the Eluma Elish; the Sumerians didn't know of her.

So I edited the Wikipedia article. Now Wikipedia is perfect again.

Definitely, she's not part of the D&D version of the Sumerian pantheon.
Chloramantis
09-11-07, 01:26 PM So when does Marduk/Bahamut come to the aid of Unther? Unther needs to be saved from the Mulhorandi Imperial Army. Unther needs to unite, without foreign aid from Thay or the Black Network. But the Untheri seem to be happy with the aid from the church of Tiamat. Althouigh she is ultimately evil, and I'm afraid Unther will remain "satisfied" with another tyrant as its savior, like Gilgeam.

The problem is that the pharaoh's imperial army is actually good aligned, and more than that, it's lawful. Would a good deity like Marduk/Bahamut interfere with a LG army even if it was an invading army?

What I am saying is, why can't Unther be saved? I would be happy with Unther being like Murghom and Semphar, semi-independent countries under Mulhorand. It would strengthen the whole Old Kingdoms against Thay.

So, I am at a crossroad. The future of Unther is as follows:
1) Unther completely rebels from Mulhorand with aid from foreigners like Thay and the Zhentarim and once they win, Unther will remain an evil puppet state of the Thay and/or the Black Network.
2) Tiamat becomes the new Gilgeam and the Untheri are happy with a new tyrant as the head of state.
3) Unther is absorbed into Mulhorand and the Untheri begin worshipping Mulhorandi gods.
4) Marduk returns and saves Unther from Tiamat, foreigners and Mulhorand. Marduk become the head of state with the assistance of the Northern Wizards.

I don't know, I guess I just want Unther to be rid of foreign investors and be unified under Marduk/Bahamut (Unther), like Chessenta is under Tchazzar/Tiamat.
MarkusTay63
09-11-07, 01:37 PM I'm getting the idea that 'Marduk' is a name of a deity that has either 'passed on', or was left behind in the RW (D&D earth).

So others have been 'masquerading' as him and using his followers.

However, maybe when Assura(n) became Hoar, he dropped the Marduk persona, or perhaps lost it to someone else (like Bahamut)?

It just seems to me that when a deity 'goes missing', for whatever reason, other deities can grab the name and worshippers, even if the portfolios are off (just look at Set). That would explain all the inconsistencies, like Innana could have been an aspect of Ishtar when they/she first entered FR, but some lesser god, probably with permission, took over the job from her. Maybe a Yuir Totem, for all we know. Ishtar may have even allowed it after forseeing an untimely death of her Inanna aspect, so gave it away.
Chloramantis
09-12-07, 10:26 AM Marduk was a Untheric god who was killed during the Orc's Gate War. Bahamut and Marduk were allies and friends. Upon Marduk's death, Bahamut used his name as an alias to protect his followers.
Now, to me, Marduk/Bahamut would be a great savior of the Untheric Empire.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 09-01-07, 07:36 AM	Can someone explain me how the pantheon led by Gilgeam came to Faerun? I understand the slaves of Imaskar held their former beliefs and gods in honor during their enslavement. Later on their gods found their people via the astral plane and sent avatars to Faerun. But were Gilgeam&Co part of the Mulhorandi / Egyptian pantheon?
BadCatMan 09-01-07, 08:31 AM	No. The gods that formed the Untheric pantheon came from the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons. They shipped over in much the same way that the Egyptian pantheon did (used to be Wildspace in 2e, now the Astral?). Assuran (aka Hoar) came from the Untheric pantheon, but it is unclear where he came from before that, as he does not appear in either the Babylonian or Sumerian pantheons, nor any others. Tiamat is very different case. She existed in both the Babylonian and Sumerian faiths, and reappeared in the Untheric, but she also appeared as the draconic deity long before that.
ripvanwormer 09-01-07, 10:15 AM	Tiamat is part of the Babylonian pantheon, but she was never part of the Sumerian pantheon. Assuran and Gilgeam are both part of the Untheric pantheon, but neither was part of the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons in the previous world. I interpret that to mean they're both native to Faerun. Gilgeam was the son of Enlil.
BadCatMan 09-01-07, 10:19 AM	I just did a quick Wiki on Tiamat, which said she was in both. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat The D&D versions would be another story... Wasn't Gilgeam Gilgamesh? :confused:
MarkusTay63 09-01-07, 11:33 AM	He was FR's VERSION of Gilgamesh, but he was native to Toril. Asuras were a type of 'titan' (pre-god) in Vedic mythology, and later became associated with demons in Hindu Mythology, much the way the Gerek Titans and Norse Jotuns became 'evil' after their progeny took over. Also, there is an Asura in Hyborian (Conan) Mythology. Although usually at odds with the other 'good' god of that setting, Mitra, their priests occassionally team up in order to battle the forces of Set. You can take your pick as to where Ed/the designers got FR's Assuran, but fighting with the rest of the Untheric Pantheon sounds like the first, and being an enemy of Set sounds like the second, so perhaps he is an amalgam of the two. Where he gets his portfolio is anybody's guess. Tiamet also exists in Judaeo-Christian Mythology as Leviathan, as does her brother Bahamut (Behemmoth). Their names were altered and roles changed when the Semites borrowed the Sumerian myths for their book. In fact, most of the stories in the Old Testament were lifted nearly word-for-word from Sumerian texts (the flood, etc) All religions are related, if you dig deep enough; thats why they should bring back the Wheel. ;) No. The gods that formed the Untheric pantheon came from the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons. They shipped over in much the same way that the Egyptian pantheon did (used to be Wildspace in 2e, now the Astral?).More specifically, the Untheric came over on the Galley of the Gods, described in the Encyclopedia Magica Vol. 3.
Suin Bahhar 09-02-07, 04:59 PM	More specifically, the Untheric came over on the Galley of the Gods, described in the Encyclopedia Magica Vol. 3. Ah, thanks Markus. So who were aboard this Galley at the time? Did the egyptian gods ride a different vessel? Were the untheric gods that landed absorbed or slain by mainly mulhorandi gods or fearunian ones? Also can it be possible Lathander has something to do with the interloper sumerian gods? According to 2ed Old Empires the states in Chessenta all have lots of relics and statues of the morninglord within their cities. He is seen as the athlete god and chessentans love athletic games.
BadCatMan 09-02-07, 09:00 PM	Lathander is an old Talfiric sun god, from the Western Heartlands, Savage Frontier area. His faith migrated to Chessenta. The athletics focus itself really derived from Unther. But if you check out his entry in Old Empires, you see a mysterious entity known as Melith commands creativity in Chessenta, not Lathander. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-717171 (Whee! I discovered a lost god!) There are numerous theories on who Melith is: an old Jhaamdathan deity, an old Turami deity, or a later Chessentan hero-god. In any case, Lathander and other well-known gods probably moved in on Melith's faith and that of other local deities.
MarkusTay63 09-02-07, 09:24 PM	Ah, thanks Markus. So who were aboard this Galley at the time? Did the egyptian gods ride a different vessel? Re (as the manifestation of Ra was known) and his children rode in a huge war galley known as the Matet. (At night it changed into a simple barge known as the Semktet) Both pantheons were lead hither by Ptah who was using an artifact called The Beacon of Light (described in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical). Strangely, the Untheric God's vessel was built by the Sumerian god Enki, who didn't make the trip. Were the untheric gods that landed absorbed or slain by mainly mulhorandi gods or fearunian ones? Also can it be possible Lathander has something to do with the interloper sumerian gods? According to 2ed Old Empires the states in Chessenta all have lots of relics and statues of the morninglord within their cities. He is seen as the athlete god and chessentans love athletic games.Ptah led both pantheons, with the permission of Ao. Most of them were slain by the Orcish Pantheon, who also killed several Mulhorandi (Pharaonic) gods as well during the Orcgate Wars.
Suin Bahhar 09-03-07, 08:35 AM	Wow, lathander travelled from the Heartlands (talfiric lands) all the way to Chessenta? The orcgates allowed the orcish pantheon to travel with their worshippers immediately after opening of the big portal to their realm or did they also need some kind of vessel to circumvent Ao's rules? So these sumeric gods were no match for those primitive brute gods? Lets see: Sumeric gods: Enlil, god of air (father of Gilgeam) An, god of heaven Assyrian, god of the sky (Assuran) Enki, god of water and earth (father of Marduk) Ninlil, goddes of air (mother of Gilgeam) Ki, goddes of earth Inanna or Ishtar, goddes of love and war (now that's a nice combo) Marduk, god of light Utu or Shamash, god of the sun Nanna, goddes of the moon Ninurta, god of ploughs (?) Nergal, lord of death Untheric gods: Gilgeam god of victory Girru (?) Inanna, goddes of war and love Ki, earth mother Marduk, god of vigilince Nanna-sin, goddes of the moon Nergal, god of the underworld Ramman, god of duty Utu, god of the sun They seem like a pretty potent bunch of gods, but they divide the portfolio of the sky into lots of special fragments. Their divine power is shared and subsequently lower? The orc pantheon (Baghtru, Ilneval, Gruumsh, Luthic, Shargaas, Yurtus) is pretty strong I guess.
Valten 09-03-07, 11:20 AM	Just a quick thing, Bahamut was actually Marduk (Marduk being an alias), after defeating Tiamat for the first time he was greatly weakened and then banished by the Orc deities. He is now back and known under the alias Xymor, Dragons of Faerun being the source and corrections to what I have said are welcome.
Gray Richardson 09-03-07, 07:55 PM	Marduk was actually Marduk at one time. Marduk was a Mulan deity that traveled to Toril along with the rest of the Untheric pantheon. His Torilian manifestation was killed during the Orcgate wars. Bahamut and Marduk had been friends and so Bahamut took over Marduk's name as an alias in order to tend over Marduk's worshipers, adding Marduk's worshiper base to his own and allowing him to better oppose Tiamat. To this day, Bahamut is still better known under his Marduk persona in the Old Empires region.
Valten 09-04-07, 07:02 AM	Couldn't Bahamut be Marduk even when the pantheon was on Earth? I could see this happening since Tiamat was once on earth or is it established that the real Marduk has been banished and Bahamut is under the alias of Marduk (in the old empires)?
Tyberian 09-08-07, 11:49 AM	A further note needs to be mentioned. In Assyria, their chief god was Assur, a version of Marduk as they share the same stories. I think when they made the histories and pantheons they sometimes didn't pay much attention. For instance, quite some time after the death of Inanna in the orcgate wars, Ishtar left Faerun and Isis took her followers. Problem is, Ishtar and Inanna were the same deities, sharing the same mythological stories but with differing portfolios and power level.
ripvanwormer 09-09-07, 10:36 PM	I just did a quick Wiki on Tiamat, which said she was in both. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat I'm 90% certain that that's incorrect. Sometimes Wikipedia isn't perfect. Read the Discussion part of that article (the "Babylon versus Sumer" part), which seems to agree with me. I'm not comfortable with the assertion that Tiamat is a "Sumerian" goddess as all the references I've seen to her (eg: Dalley - Myths from Mesopotamia, Black & Green - Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia) have been from the Babylonian Epic of Creation, and no Sumerian source (such as those from Samuel Noah Kramer) include her as Sumerian. That's my experience as well. Tiamat's from the Eluma Elish; the Sumerians didn't know of her. So I edited the Wikipedia article. Now Wikipedia is perfect again. Definitely, she's not part of the D&D version of the Sumerian pantheon.
Chloramantis 09-11-07, 01:26 PM	So when does Marduk/Bahamut come to the aid of Unther? Unther needs to be saved from the Mulhorandi Imperial Army. Unther needs to unite, without foreign aid from Thay or the Black Network. But the Untheri seem to be happy with the aid from the church of Tiamat. Althouigh she is ultimately evil, and I'm afraid Unther will remain "satisfied" with another tyrant as its savior, like Gilgeam. The problem is that the pharaoh's imperial army is actually good aligned, and more than that, it's lawful. Would a good deity like Marduk/Bahamut interfere with a LG army even if it was an invading army? What I am saying is, why can't Unther be saved? I would be happy with Unther being like Murghom and Semphar, semi-independent countries under Mulhorand. It would strengthen the whole Old Kingdoms against Thay. So, I am at a crossroad. The future of Unther is as follows: 1) Unther completely rebels from Mulhorand with aid from foreigners like Thay and the Zhentarim and once they win, Unther will remain an evil puppet state of the Thay and/or the Black Network. 2) Tiamat becomes the new Gilgeam and the Untheri are happy with a new tyrant as the head of state. 3) Unther is absorbed into Mulhorand and the Untheri begin worshipping Mulhorandi gods. 4) Marduk returns and saves Unther from Tiamat, foreigners and Mulhorand. Marduk become the head of state with the assistance of the Northern Wizards. I don't know, I guess I just want Unther to be rid of foreign investors and be unified under Marduk/Bahamut (Unther), like Chessenta is under Tchazzar/Tiamat.
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 01:37 PM	I'm getting the idea that 'Marduk' is a name of a deity that has either 'passed on', or was left behind in the RW (D&D earth). So others have been 'masquerading' as him and using his followers. However, maybe when Assura(n) became Hoar, he dropped the Marduk persona, or perhaps lost it to someone else (like Bahamut)? It just seems to me that when a deity 'goes missing', for whatever reason, other deities can grab the name and worshippers, even if the portfolios are off (just look at Set). That would explain all the inconsistencies, like Innana could have been an aspect of Ishtar when they/she first entered FR, but some lesser god, probably with permission, took over the job from her. Maybe a Yuir Totem, for all we know. Ishtar may have even allowed it after forseeing an untimely death of her Inanna aspect, so gave it away.
Chloramantis 09-12-07, 10:26 AM	Marduk was a Untheric god who was killed during the Orc's Gate War. Bahamut and Marduk were allies and friends. Upon Marduk's death, Bahamut used his name as an alias to protect his followers. Now, to me, Marduk/Bahamut would be a great savior of the Untheric Empire.