what happened to the duergar dieties? [Archive] - Wizards Community

what happened to the duergar dieties? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Francho1
10-26-07, 11:00 AM who killed them and who are the gray dwarves going to worship?
Made Abathor or some underdark diety.
Where can i find this info
Mula
10-27-07, 01:09 AM I don't have the Grand History, but I think they were killed in a big ass battle against some of the dwarven deities.
The_Shaman
10-27-07, 06:51 PM "Were" or "are supposed to be?" AFAIK in the period the PGtF and most other 3.5 books are discussing, they are alive and well, and nothing has happened to them. Something will, but that's another point.
Charles Phipps
10-29-07, 02:29 AM Moradin killed them.

They took down Haela Brightax and another god.
18DELTA
10-30-07, 03:50 PM Because in 4E the Duergar will be reabsorbed into the Dwarf family! At the end of AGHotR the dwarves take the now Godless Gray Dwarves back in to the fold. In 4E they will probably be called Gray Dwarves, not Duergar(JMHO). They will just be different racial talent trees.:D
MarkusTay63
10-30-07, 04:36 PM It actually makes sense. IIRC, Duergar were supposed to be the FR version of Derro, but at some point some designer accidently inserted Derro into the Realms, so we wound up with two versions of 'Dark Dwarf'.

This is one of the many things 4e FR will rectify - The Duergar are being merged back into the Dwarves so that we can have the 'core' Derro as the single evil Dwarven race.

So if the rule is to have at least one evil version of each core race, how come we never got cannibalistic Halflings and Insane Gnomes? :D
ripvanwormer
10-30-07, 10:38 PM IIRC, Duergar were supposed to be the FR version of Derro

No, duergar were in the 1st edition Monster Manual II (and so were derro). They were never associated exclusively with FR (and derro weren't exclusively associated with Greyhawk, although that was the only place they showed up in 2e until the Monstrous Manual came out).

Derro aren't really "dark dwarves." They're not usually even listed as a type of dwarf (they have been, now and then, but aren't in the current MM).

This is one of the many things 4e FR will rectify - The Duergar are being merged back into the Dwarves so that we can have the 'core' Derro as the single evil Dwarven race.

The main issue is that the current design thing thinks FR has too many deities, so they're killing off a bunch of the ones they think aren't necessary, and demoting the others to the status of demigods. I guess the 4e duergar will worship Moradin or Bane (since it looks like you won't be able to worship Abbathor anymore without worshiping Moradin).
booze
10-31-07, 12:06 PM So if the rule is to have at least one evil version of each core race, how come we never got Insane Gnomes? :D
what would be the difference to normal gnomes? ;)
Lord Karsus
10-31-07, 01:14 PM -This is something else I don't like. Why does Moradin suddenly feel the need to crusade against Abbathor and Deep Duerra? He never really even banished them from the Mordinsamman- technically, both were still members.
MarkusTay63
10-31-07, 01:45 PM what would be the difference to normal gnomes? ;)Insane Gnomes create Giant Space Hamsters. :P

And the thing about the Dwarven gods is very weird - Not only didn't they have too much problem with one another, but why would the Duergar suddenly start worshipping the very gods who just killed THEIR deities? :confused:
18DELTA
10-31-07, 01:51 PM META-GAME KNOWLEDGE!!!;) :P :rolleyes: They knew $E was coming!:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus
10-31-07, 05:51 PM And the thing about the Dwarven gods is very weird - Not only didn't they have too much problem with one another, but why would the Duergar suddenly start worshipping the very gods who just killed THEIR deities? :confused:

-Barring some in-game explanation- and it better be a good one-, there really isn't a valid reason.
SteelGeneral
11-01-07, 11:03 AM Wouldn't Cannibalistic Halflings end up eating themselves? :confused:
MarkusTay63
11-01-07, 12:05 PM No, but it's not true 'Earth-style' Cannibalism. They eat other intelligent species, just not each other. Although I'm not overly familiar with Dark Sun, so they might have eaten Halflings from other tribes.

Now Cannibalistic Kender would be way too much -

"Is that your arm? I wonder how it tastes..."

:D
18DELTA
11-01-07, 12:38 PM :rofl: :eek: ;) :P
Charles Phipps
11-01-07, 02:23 PM -Barring some in-game explanation- and it better be a good one-, there really isn't a valid reason.

Because Duergar are a bunch of opportunistic evil :censored: who stick with the winner?
To11
11-01-07, 02:30 PM Well, I think we are to take the Battle between the Mordinsamman (sp?) and the Duergar Gods (Ladueger/Deep Duerra) as paralleling what was happening on Faerun, with the Gray Dwarves allying with the Gold Dwarves. I don't think this means that the Duergar suddenly become good, just that they are no longer enemies of other dwarves.
Suin Bahhar
11-03-07, 09:59 AM I hope they keep Diirinka, the crazed Derro God, to sow discord amongst dwarves and duergar.
The histories of the splitting of the duergar and dwarves are ancient texts and they had bad blood for a long time now. I can't imagine the dwarves being that gullible and trusting the gray dwarves, not right after a bloody 5 year subterranean war.
MarkusTay63
11-03-07, 11:02 AM It's just more of the heavy-handed "we want it that way so it doesn't HAVE to make sense" treatment of the world we love(d).

4e is sounding less likea game setting and more and more like a playground for egomaniacs. I mean, is it really just a handful of people making these arbitrary decisions?

I'm sure the president of Argentina thought the Falkland Islands War was a good idea too, even though the rest of the world just shook their head in wonder.

Seriously, I think it's reality check time for certain designers. They need to realize that everything that they come up with is NOT 'cool', no matter what they think.
1 ton ghost
11-03-07, 02:25 PM this is all speculation until they release their "new text" and even then, a great many gamers will not be assimilated into the new way of thinking/design.
the future incarnation of grey dwarf culture is kinda' up in the air. they give you just enough filler to whet your whistle (GHotR) and entice you...and your wallet into the "new hotness". don't believe the hype. just wait, stick to your current campaigns and wait for the dust to settle.

they'll probably elevate some badass to godhood in much the same way they did w/ Velsharoon, Kelemore, Cyric, Mystra, etc.

see a pattern repeating here?

they'll use it as a jump point for justifying whatever new designs they have. broad sweeping changes are easier when you can just say, "ah, a god did it."

most will remain evil i'm guessing. hard to stop a train, you know?
some will embrace Ghaunadaur (not a drow god btw) given his association w/ underdark critters. i imagine Shar will pick up some of the slack too given her portfolio and sphere of influence.
quite a few will embrace the traditional dwarven mythos (i'm sad they killed Haela) but will maintain alignments, etc.
Lord Karsus
11-03-07, 09:17 PM Because Duergar are a bunch of opportunistic evil :censored: who stick with the winner?

-Eh...I'd like one a little better than that.
Mula
11-04-07, 12:20 AM The duergar and the gold dwarves are united against a common enemy, the illithids. Instead of dying away as a race, the dark dwarves accept the gold dwarves’ offer of an alliance and together they begin to rebuild Shanatar and repel the eventual onslaught of illithid forces.

The attack against the duergar deities was going to happen someday, and it happened to take place in 1383 DR. There was no way the status quo was going to last. Come on, be real. Are you seriously suggesting that attacking the evil deities of the dark dwarves is somehow against the nature of the warlike Mordinsamman? They’re not Eldath.
Lord Karsus
11-04-07, 05:31 PM The attack against the duergar deities was going to happen someday, and it happened to take place in 1383 DR. There was no way the status quo was going to last.

-Why? Lolth has represented the deprived evil that the Drow/Dark Elves have become for thousands of years, and the Seldarine has yet to initiate a "jihad" against her and the rest of the Dark Seldarine.
The_Shaman
11-04-07, 06:47 PM It's not a good explanation, by any means, but Moradin and Corellon having different preferences on how to deal with troubles in the family I can believe.
philnicau
11-04-07, 07:18 PM So if the rule is to have at least one evil version of each core race, how come we never got cannibalistic Halflings

You've obviously never read The Book of Vile Darkness which have the Jerren an Evil Halfling Race who are stated to Overcome, Feed Upon, and Corrupt all they come across.
The_Shaman
11-04-07, 08:13 PM Meh, I prefered the Baldur's Gate man-eating halflings a lot more. None of this corruption BS, just a double dose of hunger.
Lord Karsus
11-04-07, 11:35 PM It's not a good explanation, by any means, but Moradin and Corellon having different preferences on how to deal with troubles in the family I can believe.

-That's most likely an understatement. The part about them handling things differently, anyway. :)
Dark Wizard
11-05-07, 02:58 AM I felt that it came too close to the rest of the stuff in the mid 1380s. It's like a three year deicide free-for-all (the drow just had a ten year head start on everybody as usual).

Are these events related? Did someone tick Ao off or did he just get bored and decide to orchestrate a game of immortal combat? Either way it seems a bit too neat, all this coming together in consecutive years to usher in 4E. I would be far more impressed if this happened a few years ago, right when they were planning 4E, spread things out a little, make it look like they actually worked on this rather than dictate a brief memo to fans telling them to drop gods X, Y and Z by the year 1385. It seems the drow are the only aspect of FR that gets any long term planning.
Mula
11-05-07, 12:23 PM Of course they're related. The Spellplague. Cosmic portents and planetary alignments and all that. :) You know, the usual high fantasy stuff.

(And 4e too.)
MarkusTay63
11-05-07, 01:33 PM Yes, a group of arch-wizards from an alternate reality (they say it's called "The Coast") showed up on the scene and cast some sort of 'super-spell' that made all the gods go insane (and sent Ao on vacation). ;)

You've obviously never read The Book of Vile Darkness which have the Jerren an Evil Halfling Race who are stated to Overcome, Feed Upon, and Corrupt all they come across.But thats Core, not FR.

What I meant is that other settings got cannibalistic halflings and we didn't. :(

I didn't know about the Baldur's Gate ones... I realy need too take a look at those computer games. :cool:
Gladi
11-06-07, 11:41 AM Bright day
Hasn't it already stated that some grey dwarves feel envy over Thunder Blessing?
18DELTA
11-06-07, 12:38 PM They went bye-bye!!!:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Francho1 10-26-07, 11:00 AM	who killed them and who are the gray dwarves going to worship? Made Abathor or some underdark diety. Where can i find this info
Mula 10-27-07, 01:09 AM	I don't have the Grand History, but I think they were killed in a big ass battle against some of the dwarven deities.
The_Shaman 10-27-07, 06:51 PM	"Were" or "are supposed to be?" AFAIK in the period the PGtF and most other 3.5 books are discussing, they are alive and well, and nothing has happened to them. Something will, but that's another point.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 02:29 AM	Moradin killed them. They took down Haela Brightax and another god.
18DELTA 10-30-07, 03:50 PM	Because in 4E the Duergar will be reabsorbed into the Dwarf family! At the end of AGHotR the dwarves take the now Godless Gray Dwarves back in to the fold. In 4E they will probably be called Gray Dwarves, not Duergar(JMHO). They will just be different racial talent trees.:D
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 04:36 PM	It actually makes sense. IIRC, Duergar were supposed to be the FR version of Derro, but at some point some designer accidently inserted Derro into the Realms, so we wound up with two versions of 'Dark Dwarf'. This is one of the many things 4e FR will rectify - The Duergar are being merged back into the Dwarves so that we can have the 'core' Derro as the single evil Dwarven race. So if the rule is to have at least one evil version of each core race, how come we never got cannibalistic Halflings and Insane Gnomes? :D
ripvanwormer 10-30-07, 10:38 PM	IIRC, Duergar were supposed to be the FR version of Derro No, duergar were in the 1st edition Monster Manual II (and so were derro). They were never associated exclusively with FR (and derro weren't exclusively associated with Greyhawk, although that was the only place they showed up in 2e until the Monstrous Manual came out). Derro aren't really "dark dwarves." They're not usually even listed as a type of dwarf (they have been, now and then, but aren't in the current MM). This is one of the many things 4e FR will rectify - The Duergar are being merged back into the Dwarves so that we can have the 'core' Derro as the single evil Dwarven race. The main issue is that the current design thing thinks FR has too many deities, so they're killing off a bunch of the ones they think aren't necessary, and demoting the others to the status of demigods. I guess the 4e duergar will worship Moradin or Bane (since it looks like you won't be able to worship Abbathor anymore without worshiping Moradin).
booze 10-31-07, 12:06 PM	So if the rule is to have at least one evil version of each core race, how come we never got Insane Gnomes? :D what would be the difference to normal gnomes? ;)
Lord Karsus 10-31-07, 01:14 PM	-This is something else I don't like. Why does Moradin suddenly feel the need to crusade against Abbathor and Deep Duerra? He never really even banished them from the Mordinsamman- technically, both were still members.
MarkusTay63 10-31-07, 01:45 PM	what would be the difference to normal gnomes? ;)Insane Gnomes create Giant Space Hamsters. :P And the thing about the Dwarven gods is very weird - Not only didn't they have too much problem with one another, but why would the Duergar suddenly start worshipping the very gods who just killed THEIR deities? :confused:
18DELTA 10-31-07, 01:51 PM	META-GAME KNOWLEDGE!!!;) :P :rolleyes: They knew $E was coming!:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 10-31-07, 05:51 PM	And the thing about the Dwarven gods is very weird - Not only didn't they have too much problem with one another, but why would the Duergar suddenly start worshipping the very gods who just killed THEIR deities? :confused: -Barring some in-game explanation- and it better be a good one-, there really isn't a valid reason.
SteelGeneral 11-01-07, 11:03 AM	Wouldn't Cannibalistic Halflings end up eating themselves? :confused:
MarkusTay63 11-01-07, 12:05 PM	No, but it's not true 'Earth-style' Cannibalism. They eat other intelligent species, just not each other. Although I'm not overly familiar with Dark Sun, so they might have eaten Halflings from other tribes. Now Cannibalistic Kender would be way too much - "Is that your arm? I wonder how it tastes..." :D
18DELTA 11-01-07, 12:38 PM	:rofl: :eek: ;) :P
Charles Phipps 11-01-07, 02:23 PM	-Barring some in-game explanation- and it better be a good one-, there really isn't a valid reason. Because Duergar are a bunch of opportunistic evil :censored: who stick with the winner?
To11 11-01-07, 02:30 PM	Well, I think we are to take the Battle between the Mordinsamman (sp?) and the Duergar Gods (Ladueger/Deep Duerra) as paralleling what was happening on Faerun, with the Gray Dwarves allying with the Gold Dwarves. I don't think this means that the Duergar suddenly become good, just that they are no longer enemies of other dwarves.
Suin Bahhar 11-03-07, 09:59 AM	I hope they keep Diirinka, the crazed Derro God, to sow discord amongst dwarves and duergar. The histories of the splitting of the duergar and dwarves are ancient texts and they had bad blood for a long time now. I can't imagine the dwarves being that gullible and trusting the gray dwarves, not right after a bloody 5 year subterranean war.
MarkusTay63 11-03-07, 11:02 AM	It's just more of the heavy-handed "we want it that way so it doesn't HAVE to make sense" treatment of the world we love(d). 4e is sounding less likea game setting and more and more like a playground for egomaniacs. I mean, is it really just a handful of people making these arbitrary decisions? I'm sure the president of Argentina thought the Falkland Islands War was a good idea too, even though the rest of the world just shook their head in wonder. Seriously, I think it's reality check time for certain designers. They need to realize that everything that they come up with is NOT 'cool', no matter what they think.
1 ton ghost 11-03-07, 02:25 PM	this is all speculation until they release their "new text" and even then, a great many gamers will not be assimilated into the new way of thinking/design. the future incarnation of grey dwarf culture is kinda' up in the air. they give you just enough filler to whet your whistle (GHotR) and entice you...and your wallet into the "new hotness". don't believe the hype. just wait, stick to your current campaigns and wait for the dust to settle. they'll probably elevate some badass to godhood in much the same way they did w/ Velsharoon, Kelemore, Cyric, Mystra, etc. see a pattern repeating here? they'll use it as a jump point for justifying whatever new designs they have. broad sweeping changes are easier when you can just say, "ah, a god did it." most will remain evil i'm guessing. hard to stop a train, you know? some will embrace Ghaunadaur (not a drow god btw) given his association w/ underdark critters. i imagine Shar will pick up some of the slack too given her portfolio and sphere of influence. quite a few will embrace the traditional dwarven mythos (i'm sad they killed Haela) but will maintain alignments, etc.
Lord Karsus 11-03-07, 09:17 PM	Because Duergar are a bunch of opportunistic evil :censored: who stick with the winner? -Eh...I'd like one a little better than that.
Mula 11-04-07, 12:20 AM	The duergar and the gold dwarves are united against a common enemy, the illithids. Instead of dying away as a race, the dark dwarves accept the gold dwarves’ offer of an alliance and together they begin to rebuild Shanatar and repel the eventual onslaught of illithid forces. The attack against the duergar deities was going to happen someday, and it happened to take place in 1383 DR. There was no way the status quo was going to last. Come on, be real. Are you seriously suggesting that attacking the evil deities of the dark dwarves is somehow against the nature of the warlike Mordinsamman? They’re not Eldath.
Lord Karsus 11-04-07, 05:31 PM	The attack against the duergar deities was going to happen someday, and it happened to take place in 1383 DR. There was no way the status quo was going to last. -Why? Lolth has represented the deprived evil that the Drow/Dark Elves have become for thousands of years, and the Seldarine has yet to initiate a "jihad" against her and the rest of the Dark Seldarine.
The_Shaman 11-04-07, 06:47 PM	It's not a good explanation, by any means, but Moradin and Corellon having different preferences on how to deal with troubles in the family I can believe.
philnicau 11-04-07, 07:18 PM	So if the rule is to have at least one evil version of each core race, how come we never got cannibalistic Halflings You've obviously never read The Book of Vile Darkness which have the Jerren an Evil Halfling Race who are stated to Overcome, Feed Upon, and Corrupt all they come across.
The_Shaman 11-04-07, 08:13 PM	Meh, I prefered the Baldur's Gate man-eating halflings a lot more. None of this corruption BS, just a double dose of hunger.
Lord Karsus 11-04-07, 11:35 PM	It's not a good explanation, by any means, but Moradin and Corellon having different preferences on how to deal with troubles in the family I can believe. -That's most likely an understatement. The part about them handling things differently, anyway. :)
Dark Wizard 11-05-07, 02:58 AM	I felt that it came too close to the rest of the stuff in the mid 1380s. It's like a three year deicide free-for-all (the drow just had a ten year head start on everybody as usual). Are these events related? Did someone tick Ao off or did he just get bored and decide to orchestrate a game of immortal combat? Either way it seems a bit too neat, all this coming together in consecutive years to usher in 4E. I would be far more impressed if this happened a few years ago, right when they were planning 4E, spread things out a little, make it look like they actually worked on this rather than dictate a brief memo to fans telling them to drop gods X, Y and Z by the year 1385. It seems the drow are the only aspect of FR that gets any long term planning.
Mula 11-05-07, 12:23 PM	Of course they're related. The Spellplague. Cosmic portents and planetary alignments and all that. :) You know, the usual high fantasy stuff. (And 4e too.)
MarkusTay63 11-05-07, 01:33 PM	Yes, a group of arch-wizards from an alternate reality (they say it's called "The Coast") showed up on the scene and cast some sort of 'super-spell' that made all the gods go insane (and sent Ao on vacation). ;) You've obviously never read The Book of Vile Darkness which have the Jerren an Evil Halfling Race who are stated to Overcome, Feed Upon, and Corrupt all they come across.But thats Core, not FR. What I meant is that other settings got cannibalistic halflings and we didn't. :( I didn't know about the Baldur's Gate ones... I realy need too take a look at those computer games. :cool:
Gladi 11-06-07, 11:41 AM	Bright day Hasn't it already stated that some grey dwarves feel envy over Thunder Blessing?
18DELTA 11-06-07, 12:38 PM	They went bye-bye!!!:D