What happens to non native souls? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What happens to non native souls? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sooperspook
06-19-07, 01:03 AM So, in FR you have to worship one of the FR gods or you get shoved in a wall when you die, right?

What about people from other planes or alternate worlds?
Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities?

What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy?

Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR?
MarkusTay63
06-19-07, 01:16 AM My best educated guess would be that Kelemvor would have to reveiw the case personally, and most likely would send him on his way to his own pantheon's afterlife. I'm sure that sort of thing happens quite a bit on high-magic worlds, so there must be some sort of 'cosmic agreement' amongst the various gods of the dead.

I'm sure one of our resident 'Planar Experts' will come along and correct me if I erred.
Gray Richardson
06-19-07, 02:09 AM What about people from other planes or alternate worlds? Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities?This is not established in lore, however, several possibilities suggest themselves:

1) They get judged as Faithless and get sentenced to the Wall

2) Their patron has a divine compact with Kelemvor to send expatriot souls back to the world/cosmology they came from, in exchange, of course, for the return of absentee souls from Realmspace.

3) In the absence of a direct compact, Kelemvor may send the soul back to its own cosmology out of a sense of fairness and justice, or because of longstanding traditions of inter-cosmic reciprocity and comity.

4) There may be some sort of pan-planar law of admiralty (assuming souls are treated more like cargo or property) allowing gods to salvage unclaimed souls by making claims in Kelemvor's court.

5) There could be a rule that if your soul is from another universe, then you are fair game on the Fugue Plane, the first divine agent that sees you may be allowed to make a case for you to come with him to his god's afterlife. Or maybe he is even allowed to jump you and compel you or drag you back.

6) Maybe gods from other universes have compacts with Faerunian gods to use their aliases for the purpose of retrieving the stray souls of their followers and send the souls back to their homeworld, each keeping an eye out for each other's petitioners. Ie. Zeus doesn't have a presence in the Realms, so he strikes a deal with Tyr so that Tyr's agents can collect Zeus's petitioners from the fugue and send them back to Olympus, and Zeus could do likewise for Tyr over in his cosmology.

7) Kelemvor may give you a choice at your final judgment whether you want to go into the Wall or choose a Faerūnian patron to go with.

8) Faerunian gods may take the names of unrepresented gods as aliases in order to keep these petitioners for themselves. Ie: Hades, Nerull, and We-Jas do not have a presence in the Realms, but Shar may take their names as aliases, both granting spells in their names and collecting the souls of their petitioners from the Fugue Plane--to keep for herself--should their adherents die while travelling in the Realms.

9) Devils are allowed by Kelemvor to make a case for the petitioner to decide to sign up with the legions of the Nine Hells. If the petitioner voluntarily chooses this, then the point is moot.

10) Demons may raid the Fugue Plane (as they often do) and capture the petitioner and drag him off to the Abyss while he is waiting around for some decision to be made about his fate.What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy?This would probably mean that there would be no deity looking out for his soul, so any of the above options that require a divine agreement between gods would not apply to this fellow. I would say the percentage chance he ends up in the Wall is pretty high, though some of the other above fates might work too.Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR?Actually, maybe not, it depends. All divine spells in the Realms do come from gods. But very often Faerūnian gods will grant spells to clerics of "philosophies" on the sly, without the cleric necessarily knowing that the spells are really coming from a god. If the philosophy overlaps one of the Faerūnian gods' portfolios, then they might grant spells to the cleric if it furthers their goals or even if it amuses them. The cleric may delude himself that the spells are coming from a philosophy and not a god, but all divine spells in the Realms must come from gods or divine agents. Ed Greenwood has actually mentioned this in a post in another forum

However, such a cleric may only have access to the first few levels of spells. The cleric might be out of luck with regard to say 3rd, 4th, 5th level or higher spells (up to the DM where the cutoff is) until such time as he takes a Realms deity as his patron. This is really a judgment call on the part of the DM how he wants to work this. Ultimately if a cleric cannot get a Realms deity to grant him spells (surreptitiously or not) then the cleric cannot cast spells period.
mwbeeler
06-19-07, 02:25 AM I've always assumed it was the wall or a quickly negotiated devil pact, but from a player standpoint that could be a bit harsh. If they ported into a bad area or didn't have long to learn about the available options before being ushered into the great beyond, I don't see a, "here are your options, convert and you get a freebie as long as further my goals" agreement being out of the question. A free ride back to the flesh goes a long way towards establishing lifelong loyalty (and could be a great basis for entering a divine class/prc of some sort).
sooperspook
06-19-07, 03:24 AM Hmm...

So the consensus is there isn't any canon about it, entirely up to the DM?

Ah well. Thanks for the replies guys. :)

OH and the reason I asked was , it occurred to me that FR has had a long tradition of planar travel and that would include travelers to and from other primes.

I wondered if inter-prime travelers are issued with a warning "Danger: Non natives in Faerun will be tortured for all eternity if they die in Realmspace without the patronage of a native deity" when they research methods to travel to the Realms. :)
The WarOverlord
06-19-07, 09:31 AM So, in FR you have to worship one of the FR gods or you get shoved in a wall when you die, right?

What about people from other planes or alternate worlds?
Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities?

What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy?

Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR?

The Fugue Plane is a "Waiting Room" for the dead in the Forgotten Realms to wait for a Minion of their god to come get them because the gods of the Forgotten Realms have no Centeral Place that they would stick their Worshipers from the Forgotten Realms into otherwise.

Doesn't Matter if the Dead Soul or Spirit is a Plane Traveler from Sosorria or Greyhawk if they die on Toril they will end up in the Fugue Plane and then a Minion of whomever they Worship will be dispatched to retrieve them....only if they are left in the Plane (abandoned) would the God of the Dead Minions round up the unwanted Strays.

Remember, the Eastern Gods are from an alternate Prime far removed from Forgotten Realms, and most of the Human gods are imported Faiths from other Planes of existence as well....just rounding up non native spirits and souls and sticking them in a wall might be considered an act of war against a Pantheon not established in the Forgotten Realms.

More tricky Question would be if the Ao Cult ends up in the wall of the Faithless.
Shemeska the Marauder
06-19-07, 09:48 AM What about people from other planes or alternate worlds?
Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities?

There are no absolutely firm answers here, just informed speculation (or not depending on your opinion of me I suppose).

That said, it's very likely that those who worship gods without a deific presence on Toril but within the multiverse at large are gathered on the fugue by servants of similar or allied gods, and then delivered to the deific domain of their actual patron. It seems to make for good deific relations to hand over what belongs to someone else, because they're likely to then return the favor in some form later.

What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy?

People not from Toril who don't have a specific patron and would otherwise go directly to one of the planes at large either gets stuck in the wall, a gross casualty of Toril's gods' rules, or they might be gathered up by X exemplar of that plane at large, or even shunted off by Kelemvor (since they aren't from Toril he might exempt them from judgement, so to speak).

Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR?

No firm answer. I'd say they still retain spells, but that they're granted by proxy through Toril's gods, and it's possible that they might be stripped at some point if they remained on Toril and happened to cause trouble. In that latter case it wouldn't be that the source of the magic didn't exist, but rather that a deity or group of them would actively suppress your ability to draw upon them. Toril's gods might also unwillingly and unknowingly grant you those spells as well, but the option might only exist for clerics who aren't from Toril and weren't initially under its restrictions on divine magic.

Some clerics however I'd make virtually immune to any attempts to strip their divine magic however: specifically clerics of the Great Unknown of the Athar, and potentially the Cadence of the Planes. The actual source of their power is a giant blank spot, and I'd leave it just as much a mystery for Toril's gods, doubly so if they found themselves looking at mortals who happened to ignore the local deific magic hustle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sooperspook 06-19-07, 01:03 AM	So, in FR you have to worship one of the FR gods or you get shoved in a wall when you die, right? What about people from other planes or alternate worlds? Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities? What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy? Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR?
MarkusTay63 06-19-07, 01:16 AM	My best educated guess would be that Kelemvor would have to reveiw the case personally, and most likely would send him on his way to his own pantheon's afterlife. I'm sure that sort of thing happens quite a bit on high-magic worlds, so there must be some sort of 'cosmic agreement' amongst the various gods of the dead. I'm sure one of our resident 'Planar Experts' will come along and correct me if I erred.
Gray Richardson 06-19-07, 02:09 AM	What about people from other planes or alternate worlds? Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities?This is not established in lore, however, several possibilities suggest themselves: 1) They get judged as Faithless and get sentenced to the Wall 2) Their patron has a divine compact with Kelemvor to send expatriot souls back to the world/cosmology they came from, in exchange, of course, for the return of absentee souls from Realmspace. 3) In the absence of a direct compact, Kelemvor may send the soul back to its own cosmology out of a sense of fairness and justice, or because of longstanding traditions of inter-cosmic reciprocity and comity. 4) There may be some sort of pan-planar law of admiralty (assuming souls are treated more like cargo or property) allowing gods to salvage unclaimed souls by making claims in Kelemvor's court. 5) There could be a rule that if your soul is from another universe, then you are fair game on the Fugue Plane, the first divine agent that sees you may be allowed to make a case for you to come with him to his god's afterlife. Or maybe he is even allowed to jump you and compel you or drag you back. 6) Maybe gods from other universes have compacts with Faerunian gods to use their aliases for the purpose of retrieving the stray souls of their followers and send the souls back to their homeworld, each keeping an eye out for each other's petitioners. Ie. Zeus doesn't have a presence in the Realms, so he strikes a deal with Tyr so that Tyr's agents can collect Zeus's petitioners from the fugue and send them back to Olympus, and Zeus could do likewise for Tyr over in his cosmology. 7) Kelemvor may give you a choice at your final judgment whether you want to go into the Wall or choose a Faerūnian patron to go with. 8) Faerunian gods may take the names of unrepresented gods as aliases in order to keep these petitioners for themselves. Ie: Hades, Nerull, and We-Jas do not have a presence in the Realms, but Shar may take their names as aliases, both granting spells in their names and collecting the souls of their petitioners from the Fugue Plane--to keep for herself--should their adherents die while travelling in the Realms. 9) Devils are allowed by Kelemvor to make a case for the petitioner to decide to sign up with the legions of the Nine Hells. If the petitioner voluntarily chooses this, then the point is moot. 10) Demons may raid the Fugue Plane (as they often do) and capture the petitioner and drag him off to the Abyss while he is waiting around for some decision to be made about his fate.What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy?This would probably mean that there would be no deity looking out for his soul, so any of the above options that require a divine agreement between gods would not apply to this fellow. I would say the percentage chance he ends up in the Wall is pretty high, though some of the other above fates might work too.Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR?Actually, maybe not, it depends. All divine spells in the Realms do come from gods. But very often Faerūnian gods will grant spells to clerics of "philosophies" on the sly, without the cleric necessarily knowing that the spells are really coming from a god. If the philosophy overlaps one of the Faerūnian gods' portfolios, then they might grant spells to the cleric if it furthers their goals or even if it amuses them. The cleric may delude himself that the spells are coming from a philosophy and not a god, but all divine spells in the Realms must come from gods or divine agents. Ed Greenwood has actually mentioned this in a post in another forum However, such a cleric may only have access to the first few levels of spells. The cleric might be out of luck with regard to say 3rd, 4th, 5th level or higher spells (up to the DM where the cutoff is) until such time as he takes a Realms deity as his patron. This is really a judgment call on the part of the DM how he wants to work this. Ultimately if a cleric cannot get a Realms deity to grant him spells (surreptitiously or not) then the cleric cannot cast spells period.
mwbeeler 06-19-07, 02:25 AM	I've always assumed it was the wall or a quickly negotiated devil pact, but from a player standpoint that could be a bit harsh. If they ported into a bad area or didn't have long to learn about the available options before being ushered into the great beyond, I don't see a, "here are your options, convert and you get a freebie as long as further my goals" agreement being out of the question. A free ride back to the flesh goes a long way towards establishing lifelong loyalty (and could be a great basis for entering a divine class/prc of some sort).
sooperspook 06-19-07, 03:24 AM	Hmm... So the consensus is there isn't any canon about it, entirely up to the DM? Ah well. Thanks for the replies guys. :) OH and the reason I asked was , it occurred to me that FR has had a long tradition of planar travel and that would include travelers to and from other primes. I wondered if inter-prime travelers are issued with a warning "Danger: Non natives in Faerun will be tortured for all eternity if they die in Realmspace without the patronage of a native deity" when they research methods to travel to the Realms. :)
The WarOverlord 06-19-07, 09:31 AM	So, in FR you have to worship one of the FR gods or you get shoved in a wall when you die, right? What about people from other planes or alternate worlds? Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities? What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy? Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR? The Fugue Plane is a "Waiting Room" for the dead in the Forgotten Realms to wait for a Minion of their god to come get them because the gods of the Forgotten Realms have no Centeral Place that they would stick their Worshipers from the Forgotten Realms into otherwise. Doesn't Matter if the Dead Soul or Spirit is a Plane Traveler from Sosorria or Greyhawk if they die on Toril they will end up in the Fugue Plane and then a Minion of whomever they Worship will be dispatched to retrieve them....only if they are left in the Plane (abandoned) would the God of the Dead Minions round up the unwanted Strays. Remember, the Eastern Gods are from an alternate Prime far removed from Forgotten Realms, and most of the Human gods are imported Faiths from other Planes of existence as well....just rounding up non native spirits and souls and sticking them in a wall might be considered an act of war against a Pantheon not established in the Forgotten Realms. More tricky Question would be if the Ao Cult ends up in the wall of the Faithless.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-19-07, 09:48 AM	What about people from other planes or alternate worlds? Do they count as Faithless or are they sent back to their native planes deities? There are no absolutely firm answers here, just informed speculation (or not depending on your opinion of me I suppose). That said, it's very likely that those who worship gods without a deific presence on Toril but within the multiverse at large are gathered on the fugue by servants of similar or allied gods, and then delivered to the deific domain of their actual patron. It seems to make for good deific relations to hand over what belongs to someone else, because they're likely to then return the favor in some form later. What if, on their native world they don't have to believe in a god and follow a philosophy? People not from Toril who don't have a specific patron and would otherwise go directly to one of the planes at large either gets stuck in the wall, a gross casualty of Toril's gods' rules, or they might be gathered up by X exemplar of that plane at large, or even shunted off by Kelemvor (since they aren't from Toril he might exempt them from judgement, so to speak). Also, do philosophical clerics ,from other worlds, lose their spells while in FR? No firm answer. I'd say they still retain spells, but that they're granted by proxy through Toril's gods, and it's possible that they might be stripped at some point if they remained on Toril and happened to cause trouble. In that latter case it wouldn't be that the source of the magic didn't exist, but rather that a deity or group of them would actively suppress your ability to draw upon them. Toril's gods might also unwillingly and unknowingly grant you those spells as well, but the option might only exist for clerics who aren't from Toril and weren't initially under its restrictions on divine magic. Some clerics however I'd make virtually immune to any attempts to strip their divine magic however: specifically clerics of the Great Unknown of the Athar, and potentially the Cadence of the Planes. The actual source of their power is a giant blank spot, and I'd leave it just as much a mystery for Toril's gods, doubly so if they found themselves looking at mortals who happened to ignore the local deific magic hustle.