| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| JoeFirebritches02-07-08, 04:46 PM | Hello All, If Tyr killed Helm, what happened to Tyr? Was he exiled? Did Ao banish him? Has his hammer been impounded? Contrary to many posters, I actually liked Tyr and the Triad. |
| Dark Wizard02-07-08, 05:22 PM | Many people also like the Triad with Tyr. The details of what happens to Tyr are still unknown until FR 4E is released or at least until they give us a preview in DDI. Rich Baker did hint that Tyr's role in the Realms would be reduced in 4E. |
| JoeFirebritches02-07-08, 06:13 PM | Thanks. I'm trying to wait until I see the actual product, but I really don't like anything they've shared so far. |
| Todesherr02-07-08, 08:37 PM | Thanks. I'm trying to wait until I see the actual product, but I really don't like anything they've shared so far. Long live Torm! :fight!: :king: Death to Tyr! :f: |
| Gray Richardson02-07-08, 10:34 PM | Hello All, If Tyr killed Helm, what happened to Tyr? Was he exiled? Did Ao banish him? Has his hammer been impounded?I don't think this has been revealed yet. All we know is that the designers took the suggestion of one of the posters on these boards that Torm should step up as a leader and that Tyr should diminish, retire, or even leave the cosmos due to his suboptimal resolution of the matter. But they have been mum on the details. It will be interesting to see how they handle that in the upcoming material. |
| SmartPaladin02-08-08, 01:35 AM | Whoa... I just had an image. In repentance for his misdeeds in Helm's death. Tyr dons Helm's armor, gains a magic gauntlet that works as a "hand", and takes the name Helm. :uh-huh: |
| Kenzuki02-09-08, 08:01 AM | Whoa... I just had an image. In repentance for his misdeeds in Helm's death. Tyr dons Helm's armor, gains a magic gauntlet that works as a "hand", and takes the name Helm. :uh-huh: So basically he kills Helm and takes his stuff right? |
| Charles Phipps02-09-08, 09:29 PM | So basically he kills Helm and takes his stuff right? That's the way of D&D! But yes, I'm a huge Tyr fan and I want to see him exonerated and his role INCREASED for 4E. The Triad must live on! Tyr is our Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) |
| Kenzuki02-10-08, 07:54 AM | That's the way of D&D! But yes, I'm a huge Tyr fan and I want to see him exonerated and his role INCREASED for 4E. The Triad must live on! Tyr is our Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) Tyr killed Helm and broke the Triad apart.....You want to reward him for that? |
| msatran02-10-08, 12:41 PM | No, the Designers killed the Forgotten Realms and broke Tyr apart. Don't make mistakes unless you can put your money where your mouth is. |
| Charles Phipps02-10-08, 02:34 PM | Tyr killed Helm and broke the Triad apart.....You want to reward him for that? I honestly would prefer they don't even reference it in 4E. But honestly, Helm's death doesn't remotely impact my feelings on Tyr. To be honest, it's like Helm trying to kill the Earthmother. Not really all that important to the whole of the LG god of Awesome. I don't see why Kenzuki insists on defining Tyr by this one plotline that's out of character and silly. |
| Alkasyn02-10-08, 03:49 PM | Whoa... I just had an image. In repentance for his misdeeds in Helm's death. Tyr dons Helm's armor, gains a magic gauntlet that works as a "hand", and takes the name Helm. :uh-huh: Well, speaking is a free action, so he called dibs on Helm's phat lewt. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-10-08, 06:31 PM | I honestly would prefer they don't even reference it in 4E. But honestly, Helm's death doesn't remotely impact my feelings on Tyr. To be honest, it's like Helm trying to kill the Earthmother. Not really all that important to the whole of the LG god of Awesome. I don't see why Kenzuki insists on defining Tyr by this one plotline that's out of character and silly. See, I would argue that the plotlines about about Helm that you are referencing (him trying to kill the Earthmother?) are "out of character and silly". |
| Charles Phipps02-10-08, 06:56 PM | See, I would argue that the plotlines about about Helm that you are referencing (him trying to kill the Earthmother?) are "out of character and silly". Yes, why I referenced them. :confused: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-10-08, 06:58 PM | Yes, why I referenced them. :confused: Maybe I misunderstood you then. Sorry. |
| Charles Phipps02-10-08, 07:15 PM | My general point is that Helm doing those things was silly. Same to Tyr. We should look and Helm and Tyr as what they are, rather than those acts. Bane isn't an idiot, for example, despite being so in the TOT |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-10-08, 07:19 PM | My general point is that Helm doing those things was silly. Same to Tyr. We should look and Helm and Tyr as what they are, rather than those acts. Bane isn't an idiot, for example, despite being so in the TOT I agree. As I've said before, I sometimes disregard what deities do in novels if I think the author didn't portray them well. Heck, I'm kind of against deities showing up too much in novels, because the more they are characterized, the more likely they are to be seen as stupid or foolish. |
| Kenzuki02-10-08, 10:22 PM | That's fine for your campaigns but I think that when you are discussing the nature and person of someone in the official setting you should go by the book. In which case Tyr killed Helm for a very petty reason. Bad writting or not it happened. Ignoring it won't change that. I liked Tyr too until he killed Helm for a stupid reason. |
| Charles Phipps02-10-08, 10:29 PM | That's fine for your campaigns but I think that when you are discussing the nature and person of someone in the official setting you should go by the book. In which case Tyr killed Helm for a very petty reason. Bad writting or not it happened. Ignoring it won't change that. I liked Tyr too until he killed Helm for a stupid reason. Your ceaseless devotion to ignoring canon for one little bit still astounds me. I don't get what you like so much about Grand History of the Realms that you ignore all of the rest of the Realms history about the characters for it. Are you that much in love with 4E? Seriously. I doubt if Helm's death is ever referenced again, even if they don't retcon it. |
| Kenzuki02-10-08, 10:46 PM | Charles, let me explain something to you. I'm not ignoring all the past information on Tyr. I've read all of that. The point is that Tyr did something recently that was not a just act on his part. He forced Siamorph out of the House of the Triad, then went and whined to Sune about it. He accepted Tymora's hand in marriage to even the balance but was not man enough to court her himself. So he sends Helm to act as a go in between them. He apparantly had some misunderstandings and thought Helm was stealing his future bride. In his mind he believed that was unjust so he challenged Helm to a duel. Helm being the god of guardians and protection couldn't refuse so they fought. Tyr then kills Helm. My problam with Tyr is this. 1. He wasn't man enough to win Tymora himself so he makes Helm do it for him. 2. He then misunderstands the situation and thinks Helm is trying to steal his woman. 3. He then challenges a weaker deity to a duel he knows he will win because he's a Greater Deity. He then kills Helm for "betraying him" and takes Tymora back to his house. Ilmater is ****** off and leaves, thus the Triad is broken by Tyr's actions. These series of events happens AFTER all the other past stuff about Tyr takes place. So how am I ignoring all the past stuff about him? I'm not. I'm focussing on this most unjust act that Tyr has comitted and he needs to be punished in kind. If the God of "Justice" can't be judged according to his own laws, what does that say about him? It simply becomes a case of "mighty makes right" as you yourself have claimed "If Tyr won he must have been right!". That is the same mentality that one would expect coming from a deity like Bane. So Cyric goes to jail for killing Mystra yet Tyr kills Helm and gets off scott free. Is this justice to you? What makes Tyr's murdering of Helm more just than Cyric's of Mystra? At least Cyric was furthering his portfolios unlike Tyr. Is Justice really blind Charles? |
| Charles Phipps02-10-08, 11:25 PM | The point is that Tyr did something recently that was not a just act on his part. And? It's an unimportant and insignificant part of Realms history that hopefully will be retconned or ignored in future supplements. Certainly, it means very little to the way he's been depicted in everything from Neverwinter Nights 2 to other settings. It's either best retconned or forgotten. It's just so insignificant, I don't see why you care. |
| Kenzuki02-10-08, 11:35 PM | Oh....my....God. Insignificant? Insignificant? He killed Helm. Drove Siamorph from the House of the Triad. Drove Ilmater off by his actions. Broke the Triad apart. You call that insignificant? |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 02:04 PM | Yeah. They could have killed Helm by having him fight Cyric and have Ilmater plus Siamorphe leave on their own. |
| Kenzuki02-11-08, 05:22 PM | Charles, it happened man. You need to come to terms with the fact that this happened. You're the one that seems to be ignoring canon here buddy. |
| Draco Spirit02-11-08, 05:29 PM | Charles, it happened man. You need to come to terms with the fact that this happened. You're the one that seems to be ignoring canon here buddy. *also ignores the cannon* I've reached the conclustion that 4th edition is very badly writen, hence I be mostly ignoring it. I mean I not be shocked if I heard the Sune started dated Bane and there churches have merged as one at this point.. |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 05:32 PM | Charles, it happened man. You need to come to terms with the fact that this happened. You're the one that seems to be ignoring canon here buddy. Yes... And I'm saying it doesn't matter. Tyr is important enough to the setting that Helm, Ilmater, and Siamorphe could all be killed by Tyr and it wouldn't change my opinion in the slightest. But we'll have to see what happens to him, I suppose. |
| Kenzuki02-11-08, 05:38 PM | So you'de still consider Tyr the paragon of Justice if he killed all of those gods and acted like Bane? |
| Draco Spirit02-11-08, 05:59 PM | So you'de still consider Tyr the paragon of Justice if he killed all of those gods and acted like Bane? This is what I mean about bad writing, Tyr suppose to be a god of justice, yet he's acting like a tyrant. I can't stand it when character suddernly have sudden and dramatic changes in attitudes.. |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 06:10 PM | So you'de still consider Tyr the paragon of Justice if he killed all of those gods and acted like Bane? except, even if he did, he'd still act like Tyr. His followers and he being Paragons of Justice and nobility. It's a weird incident that doesn't change any of Tyr's personality, role in the setting, or wisdom. I know I'm not going to change your opinion on this just as the reverse is true. |
| Kenzuki02-11-08, 06:36 PM | It still happened. Remember that. |
| msatran02-11-08, 06:54 PM | Uhh, Kenzuki. No. The design team changed and made it happen. As of the end of 1382, my world will no longer follow canon events. As of the last day of the year of Risen Elfkin, my world will no longer follow Novel events. I simply cannot stand the level of incompetence and inconsistency anymore. I made this decision, to be quite honest, after reading the first novel in the Twilight War series. If I don't do something by the end of 1375, the world will have no room for PC's in it anymore. Too many cosmic wracking events that flatten the face of Toril, wipe cities off the map and replace them with encounter areas are occurring all over the Realms. Plus, whoever is lionizing Paul S. Kemp's writing and putting him on a shrine for writing those Erevis Cale novels has no concept of what good writing is. God help me, if Kemp knew what was actually available to a character of that level, Chosen of Mask or no, Brennus and Rivalen would be dead, or Erevis would be permanently transformed into a Shadow Chair. Plus, god, the dialogue, I wanted to choke on it. I'm amazed that a highly intelligent lawyer could evoke all the emotion and passion of a wet piece of cardboard. That being said, Wizards threw consistency out the window the moment they let this novel be written. I think Miklos Selkirk might even be in two places at once. |
| Bonzai02-11-08, 06:59 PM | Unfortunatley I have to agree with Kenzuki. What happened was significant. The fact that it was distasteful doesn't make it any less of a fact. Lol, of course he never was the brightest bulb in the shed, otherwise he wouldn't keep losing body parts left and right. Lucky for him, helm didn't cut something else off to remember him by. But from what Richard Baker had responded to Green Knight's post, it looks as if Tyr is going back to where ever he came from. This sates Mr. Baker's lust for deicide, and at least put some belated logic into the ramifications of his actions. |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 07:00 PM | Character of what level? But from what Richard Baker had responded to Green Knight's post, it looks as if Tyr is going back to where ever he came from. This sates Mr. Baker's lust for deicide, and at least put some belated logic into the ramifications of his actions. I'm not sure how getting rid of ANOTHER god would be remotely better. Tyr is, bluntly, as important to the setting as Mystra. Frankly, I'm appalled and disgusted at the attitudes of fans who have no outrage over this. There was hew and cry over Mystra but not the Even handed? WTFreck? |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 07:04 PM | Unfortunatley I have to agree with Kenzuki. What happened was significant. The fact that it was distasteful doesn't make it any less of a fact. Lol, of course he never was the brightest bulb in the shed, otherwise he wouldn't keep losing body parts left and right. Lucky for him, helm didn't cut something else off to remember him by. I hope, whenever they choose to detail the fight, it's made suitably epic. The whole "A greater god automatically beats a Intermediate God" is stupid. It should be a battle that shakes the Heavens with either side able to win. A colossal clash of Good vs. Law incarnate. A battle that the songs of glory will be sung by both sides for Ages to come. Helm deserves no less than to be immortalized in song even if he didn't win the greatest contest of arms in history. |
| Rauric02-11-08, 07:12 PM | Well MS I guess Rino, myself and many others on these boards don't know what good writing is. When reading a FR novel it is usually best to not think about game mechanics since doing so will sour the story a bit. On a side note I do not like any of the RSE novel lately except for Kemps. The characters in most of them were blah and the stories were so so and I did not give a damn for anyone in any of those books. Kemp has done a fine job (IMO) of fleshing out characters and made me care for them. I hope by the end of the series the whole Shade thing is over with. At least in it's current form. Plus you are not using canon!!! What will you do? You have been relying on others so long is it possible to really come up with your own lore?(sarcasm off) :) Actually I am sure you will have no trouble. People have been ignoring canon and lore for years. It is not as dramatic as you make it sound. |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 07:22 PM | Yes, I rather like the D&D books by Mister Kemp. The quality of the books rise the higher they don't adhere to D&D rules. |
| Kenzuki02-11-08, 09:06 PM | Uhh, Kenzuki. No. The design team changed and made it happen. As of the end of 1382, my world will no longer follow canon events. As of the last day of the year of Risen Elfkin, my world will no longer follow Novel events. I simply cannot stand the level of incompetence and inconsistency anymore. I made this decision, to be quite honest, after reading the first novel in the Twilight War series. If I don't do something by the end of 1375, the world will have no room for PC's in it anymore. Too many cosmic wracking events that flatten the face of Toril, wipe cities off the map and replace them with encounter areas are occurring all over the Realms. Plus, whoever is lionizing Paul S. Kemp's writing and putting him on a shrine for writing those Erevis Cale novels has no concept of what good writing is. God help me, if Kemp knew what was actually available to a character of that level, Chosen of Mask or no, Brennus and Rivalen would be dead, or Erevis would be permanently transformed into a Shadow Chair. Plus, god, the dialogue, I wanted to choke on it. I'm amazed that a highly intelligent lawyer could evoke all the emotion and passion of a wet piece of cardboard. That being said, Wizards threw consistency out the window the moment they let this novel be written. I think Miklos Selkirk might even be in two places at once. Don't care what you do in your homebrew. We're not talking about your Tyr or your Realms here. We are talking about the offical canon Realms. The fact is Tyr did this. |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 09:14 PM | The fact is Tyr did this. Yeah, and? I guess most of us are saying that the act that Tyr performed is not enough for us to color our perceptions of the character. Also, that we don't have enough information on how the designers will treat it to make a judgement. |
| Kenzuki02-11-08, 10:13 PM | We have a saying here in Georgia. Deeds be more than words. |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 10:20 PM | A thousand years of perfect justice and nobility. ;-) Also, in Kentucky... "A man is not defined by one deed alone." |
| Todesherr02-11-08, 10:57 PM | Tyr sucks; good riddance to him. Torm is a much better LG deity. He combines all the best attributes of a Heironeous with a Paladine. Tyr is just a big old dude with a beard in a court room. Death to Tyr, Long Live Torm! |
| Charles Phipps02-11-08, 10:59 PM | Tyr is just a big old dude with a beard in a court room. http://www.wearoftherodent.com/products/images/30/objection_zoom.jpg http://case.oncle-tom.net/images/Jeux-video/Phoenix-wright/Phoenix-wright-ryuichi.jpg But who will be my Lawyer-Cleric's God now? |
| Rauric02-12-08, 09:50 AM | I think Torm will be the God of Justice, Order and Duty. I think Hoar will be placed under him as a Saint or Demipower. People who still pray to Tyr will probably just be sending their "prayer juice" to Torm. The Tyr/Helm story has not really been fully detailed. I think the whole story will be given in the FRCS or an online supplement. I am sure Cyric had a role to play in manipulating the gods assault on each other. Maybe with the All Seeing One dead Shar and Cyrics plan to kill Mystra could be accomplished. Does that make Tyr a bad guy? No. Good gods in FR are notorius for "goofing" up. Look at Lathander and Mystra and even Kelemvor. He may feel that since he has acted in an unjust way (if that is what happened) he will step down as the god of justice and perhaps leave the Realms alltogether. |
| SmartPaladin02-12-08, 11:05 AM | But who will be my Lawyer-Cleric's God now? Well, here's a guess on who it won't be. Hoar. However, you could try Kelemvor, seeing as how at most times the only reason someone tends to show up in court in the Realms is because they have or may not have killed someone important. A Kelemvorian would make things so much easier in trails. Provided they can talk to the dead... |
| Bonzai02-12-08, 12:38 PM | I'm not sure how getting rid of ANOTHER god would be remotely better. Tyr is, bluntly, as important to the setting as Mystra. Frankly, I'm appalled and disgusted at the attitudes of fans who have no outrage over this. There was hew and cry over Mystra but not the Even handed? WTFreck? Well, since they got rid of Mystra as well, I have to agree. He was just as important to them. :rolleyes: I was outraged months ago. Now I'm just sort of numb to the whole thing. Mass Deicide? Tallos is now Grumush (or was that vice versu)? 100 year fast forward? A nation of dragon people in Unther? Makes as much sense as everything else they've done. |
| Craig C.02-12-08, 01:17 PM | I think Torm will be the God of Justice, Order and Duty. I think Hoar will be placed under him as a Saint or Demipower. People who still pray to Tyr will probably just be sending their "prayer juice" to Torm. The Tyr/Helm story has not really been fully detailed. I think the whole story will be given in the FRCS or an online supplement. I am sure Cyric had a role to play in manipulating the gods assault on each other. Maybe with the All Seeing One dead Shar and Cyrics plan to kill Mystra could be accomplished. Does that make Tyr a bad guy? No. Good gods in FR are notorius for "goofing" up. Look at Lathander and Mystra and even Kelemvor. He may feel that since he has acted in an unjust way (if that is what happened) he will step down as the god of justice and perhaps leave the Realms alltogether.Whereas your take on this is just one plausible and reasonable path from a story continuity perspective ... WotC's eventual direction will be based more on a game marketing angle. They want to minimize the quantity and complexity of the FR deity database to attract more customers (including those who want an "easier" dumbed-down FR). So their objective will likely be to make a more intuitively approachable and less-clonish deity roster. That said, most of our guessing is based on our love of FR lore and reasonable chain-of-events prognostication. WotC ... you can be rest assured, is looking at the eventual outcome of the Tyr/Helm/Torm thing to help boost sales of the game. That's not a bash on WotC. That's the reality of the confluence of D&D 4E, Post-Spellplague FR, and Hasbro Directives all coming together. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 08:13 PM | Drove Siamorph from the House of the Triad. Kenzuki, I'm not one to defend how Tyr acted in this story. Killing Helm, for example, was inexcusable. But as for Siamorphe? I got the impression that she's the one who decided to leave the House of the Triad, she wasn't forced into doing that. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 08:16 PM | No. The design team changed and made it happen. As of the end of 1382, my world will no longer follow canon events. As of the last day of the year of Risen Elfkin, my world will no longer follow Novel events. I simply cannot stand the level of incompetence and inconsistency anymore. I'm so happy to hear that.;) That being said, Wizards threw consistency out the window the moment they let this novel be written. I think Miklos Selkirk might even be in two places at once. Have to admit, I never liked Miklos Selkirk (I hate that name, for example), so I wasn't unhappy about his fate.:P |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 08:18 PM | I'm not sure how getting rid of ANOTHER god would be remotely better. Tyr is, bluntly, as important to the setting as Mystra. Frankly, I'm appalled and disgusted at the attitudes of fans who have no outrage over this. Remember, in some people's Realms, Tyr is still around.;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 08:22 PM | Well MS I guess Rino, myself and many others on these boards don't know what good writing is. When reading a FR novel it is usually best to not think about game mechanics since doing so will sour the story a bit. On a side note I do not like any of the RSE novel lately except for Kemps. The characters in most of them were blah and the stories were so so and I did not give a damn for anyone in any of those books. Kemp has done a fine job (IMO) of fleshing out characters and made me care for them. I hope by the end of the series the whole Shade thing is over with. At least in it's current form. Indeed, I do like Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale novels...and that's coming from someone who is generally not fond of either RSEs or antiheroes. Or "shadowcrap" (it's amazing how an author can make me enjoy reading about more stuff with Shar, the Shades, the Shadow Weave...it's a miracle, almost!). That being said, I don't think I'm going to incorporate many of the events of the Twilight War books into my Realms--I'm content to enjoy them as stories rather than as set-in-stone canon. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 08:24 PM | I hope, whenever they choose to detail the fight, it's made suitably epic. The whole "A greater god automatically beats a Intermediate God" is stupid. It should be a battle that shakes the Heavens with either side able to win. A colossal clash of Good vs. Law incarnate. A battle that the songs of glory will be sung by both sides for Ages to come. Helm deserves no less than to be immortalized in song even if he didn't win the greatest contest of arms in history. Have you read the Gossamer Plain novel? Some people, myself included, have the feeling that the Empryean Odyssee (sp?) trilogy will be dealing with the events of the House of the Triad--in fact, I think Rich Baker alluded to it. |
| Charles Phipps02-12-08, 08:39 PM | Yes, I have my fingers crossed. |
| Kenzuki02-12-08, 09:03 PM | Have you read the Gossamer Plain novel? Some people, myself included, have the feeling that the Empryean Odyssee (sp?) trilogy will be dealing with the events of the House of the Triad--in fact, I think Rich Baker alluded to it. I'll need to read that then. I want to follow up on this issue closely. |
| Charles Phipps02-12-08, 09:10 PM | http://me2bz4u.com/~jkenscoff/blog2/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/300-1.jpg I hope the book's version bears no similiarity, whatsoever to Grand History of the Realms. Like Sparta and 300. Tyr: IT IS THE DAWNING OF AN AGE...OF FREEDOM! |
| PaulKemp02-14-08, 12:23 PM | That being said, Wizards threw consistency out the window the moment they let this novel be written. I think Miklos Selkirk might even be in two places at once. I don't think there is any such problem for Miklos. Each chapter of the books of each of The Last Mythal Trilogy and The Twilight War are date stamped, so it should be an easy matter to verify (I do not have any of the books handy at the moment). My recollection is that The Last Mythal ends in the summer of 1374DR (Kythorn or Flamerule, I think), and The Twilight War (Shadowbred in particular) begins in the fall (Elient, to be precise) of that same year. Paul |
| msatran02-14-08, 03:21 PM | We have a saying here in Georgia. Deeds be more than words. And we have a saying in New Jersey. Don't !@#$%! with what ain't !@#$$%!ing broken! |
| SmartPaladin02-14-08, 04:59 PM | Two things, 1. We have a saying here in Georgia. Deeds be more than words. I'm from Georgia, and I don't recall hearing that saying... Ever. At least not while I was there. 2. And we have a saying in New Jersey. Don't !@#$%! with what ain't !@#$$%!ing broken! I like that saying, can I move to Jersey? :P No, wait... It get's cold up there... Nevermind, I think I'll stick around in the south. |
| Kenzuki02-14-08, 07:04 PM | What part of Georgia are you from? North or South? |
| SmartPaladin02-14-08, 08:32 PM | What part of Georgia are you from? North or South? Which ever part is about 30-60 minutes from South Carolina. Seriously, it was quicker and easier for me to hit the Columbia Airport instead of going ALL the way up to Atlanta... I hated Atlanta... And now I'm in Iowa... Miss warm weather... |
| msatran02-14-08, 09:51 PM | I don't think there is any such problem for Miklos. Each chapter of the books of each of The Last Mythal Trilogy and The Twilight War are date stamped, so it should be an easy matter to verify (I do not have any of the books handy at the moment). My recollection is that The Last Mythal ends in the summer of 1374DR (Kythorn or Flamerule, I think), and The Twilight War (Shadowbred in particular) begins in the fall (Elient, to be precise) of that same year. Paul You are correct. I am not. :) So here's my question. How did this nation of conniving, sneaky, merchant type folk (The Sembians) get so easily suckered by the Shades? I just finished the first novel in the Twilight War trilogy and I had a LOT of trouble believing it. I know that the Shades have a lot of money, but what reason do the Sembians have to trust ANY of these people? |
| PaulKemp02-15-08, 06:06 AM | You are correct. I am not. :) So here's my question. How did this nation of conniving, sneaky, merchant type folk (The Sembians) get so easily suckered by the Shades? I just finished the first novel in the Twilight War trilogy and I had a LOT of trouble believing it. I know that the Shades have a lot of money, but what reason do the Sembians have to trust ANY of these people? Msatran, Seems to me trust isn't the issue. Need is. The only Sembian leader who knowingly allies with the shadovar is Tamlin, and he does so out of sense of desperation, what with Mirabeta bent on seizing the nation. He is also psychologically needy, particularly for an ostensible father figure like Rivalen. As for the underlying tensions/ambitions that Rivalen exploits to give rise to the civil war, they're explained in the novel. They obviously did not work very well for you. I wish it were otherwise, but so it goes. Not everything works for every reader. |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 09:33 AM | Yes, bluntly, its the Palpatine effect. The Sembians ally with two factions of Shades to Shar's glory. |
| Bonzai02-15-08, 12:09 PM | Msatran, Seems to me trust isn't the issue. Need is. The only Sembian leader who knowingly allies with the shadovar is Tamlin, and he does so out of sense of desperation, what with Mirabeta bent on seizing the nation. He is also psychologically needy, particularly for an ostensible father figure like Rivalen. As for the underlying tensions/ambitions that Rivalen exploits to give rise to the civil war, they're explained in the novel. They obviously did not work very well for you. I wish it were otherwise, but so it goes. Not everything works for every reader. And for those that have been following "Dueces" exploits, it is an amazement that he hasn't brought the city to disaster long before now. The fact that Tamlin sells out to the shades isn't difficult to swallow. That is right in line with his character. No.... the difficult part is believing he got elected to high Chauncil in the first place. Then again, considering Selengaunts last choice, I guess it makes sense.... lol. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 01:11 PM | And for those that have been following "Dueces" exploits, it is an amazement that he hasn't brought the city to disaster long before now. The fact that Tamlin sells out to the shades isn't difficult to swallow. That is right in line with his character. No.... the difficult part is believing he got elected to high Chauncil in the first place. Then again, considering Selengaunts last choice, I guess it makes sense.... lol. He got elected thanks to the machinations of Vees Talandar (a Sharan priest), who backed Tamlin up precisely because Vees thought of him as foolish and easily manipulated. So, Tamlin quite literally got the job because he's stupid, not in spite of it. |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 01:22 PM | Besides, you forget that Tamlin has the greatest gift that any Sembian can, which is that he's rich. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 01:26 PM | Besides, you forget that Tamlin has the greatest gift that any Sembian can, which is that he's rich. Well yeah, but Tamlin's hardly the only rich person in the city, much less the only rich person who would want to become the new Hulorn. So it's not that much of an advantage. I'd bet that all the other "contenders" were rich, too. |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 01:34 PM | Well yeah, but Tamlin's hardly the only rich person in the city, much less the only rich person who would want to become the new Hulorn. So it's not that much of an advantage. I'd bet that all the other "contenders" were rich, too. True, but it's a point of the Sembia series that the Lords of Stormweather aren't just rich, they're filthy rich. Tamlin is in one of the top positions for becoming Hulorn because his family is what passes for Sembian Duchal Royalty. Also, Tamlin is a wastrel and a dandy, it's another point that Selgaunt is isolated deliberately by the Council in order to have it torched for morale purposes. I confess, that's the only part of the story I had trouble with as one tends to unite one's people by going to war with FOREIGN enemies. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 06:59 PM | True, but it's a point of the Sembia series that the Lords of Stormweather aren't just rich, they're filthy rich. Tamlin is in one of the top positions for becoming Hulorn because his family is what passes for Sembian Duchal Royalty. Having read the Sembia series, I didn't get the impression that House Uskevren was vastly more wealthy and powerful than the other noble houses of Selgaunt. They're rich, yes, but that's not a distinguishing quality when the other Houses of the Old Chauncel (of which House Uskevren was simply one out of many) are filthy rich as well. There's also the fact that House Uskevren was actually down-and-out for a while (and if I recall, tainted by piracy), until the old Lord Thamalon brought it back to prominence (this is described in the very first story in Halls of Stormweather). Obviously, that wasn't too long ago, but the House has enough money that it causes people to forget the bad old days. |