Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZolDarklock 02-13-07, 03:18 AM	Set was banished from the Mulhorandi pantheon for killing Osirus in his bid to be the pantheons leader, not sure how he didn't get it since the former pantheon leader was killed off, and Set killed off Osirius his only real competiton for the leadrship role, I guess the best/brightest and the winner aren't allowed to assume the leadership thru some arcane pantheon rule... anyways Set was banished, he was somehow banished to the Raurin where he resided in his Iron Tower "wonder if it's still there" he then created the incarnation Seti, who formed the Fangs of Set and then the ToT hit, I know he had an agent inside the pharoahs palace waiting to kill off the boy god-king so he could once again some how come back to power in his former pantheon, exactly how did Ao handle his special case ? Is Set official part of the Mulhorandi Pantheon again, is he basically a free agent god, and did he re-emerge with his former god from earth, or did he choose if he had a choice to remain a seperate entity, and what ever happened to Seti seems to me Set would have prefered to remain seperated from the Mulhorandi Pantheon and seperate from his other god from earth, basically a god of his own making, he has the worshippers and power already to do just that, seems only Ao could force him to rejoin the Mulhorandi Pantheon, and not even Ao could force him to allow his essence to rejoin the Set of earth if he did not wish it, even leaving Toril would have been better than that to him
Mirtek 02-13-07, 09:43 AM	After Ao lifted the barrier, Set's manifestation was reabsorbed by his outer planar true self. He now interacts with Toril just like any other deity. He's still considered part of the Mulhorandi pantheon, but he's on hostile terms with the rest of them. His latest big act was a surprise attack on the lethargic deity Sseth, which is now bound in even deeper lethargy by a powerfull spell from Set and is slowly drained of his divine power by Set. Set also looks greedily to expand his power at the cost of other deities from the faerunian pantheon, however he seems to care too little that faerunian deities watch him with just as much hunger in their eyes as he warches them (namely Bane, Cyric and Shar wouldn't mind to slay Set and take his powers)
see 02-14-07, 04:09 AM	Set also looks greedily to expand his power at the cost of other deities from the faerunian pantheon, however he seems to care too little that faerunian deities watch him with just as much hunger in their eyes as he warches them (namely Bane, Cyric and Shar wouldn't mind to slay Set and take his powers) Set has, in the Mulhorandi Pantheon, a pretty big portfolio list -- which includes destruction, night, hate, and murder. Which happen, in the Faerunian Pantheon, to be divided among all four evil greater deities. Under Ao's rules, in the area under sway of any one pantheon, no more than one god higher than demigod rank can posses a portfolio. Which means Set would have to surrender those portfolios or somehow, as an intermediate god, beat all four greater gods. This, mind, is before we consider the other gods who would like to smack Set around -- the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, all the good-aligned gods of Faerun, Talona (poison), Azuth/Velsharoon/Savras (Set has "evil magic"), Gargauth (betrayal), Tiamat (she has "evil reptiles", he's messing with snakes and yuan-ti), Malar (beasts vs. snakes), and Talos again (storms vs. droughts). Set probably is going to either have to confine himself to Mulhorand and nonhumans (the Sseth ploy), or wind up a grease spot in the desert.
Todesherr 02-14-07, 11:25 AM	Set carries so much in portfolio; he would be an awesome addition to the pantheon of Faerun. Still his portfolio overlaps with at least 6 or 7 deities; what to do?:confused:
Shemeska the Marauder 02-14-07, 01:43 PM	If those gods of the Faerunian pantheon went after Set we'd have an interesting situation, because while Set is an exile, something of a black sheep of the Egyptian/Mulhorandi pantheon, he's still a member of that pantheon and while they don't get along, they have too much in common in terms of origin, culture, and shared history to not help him out against foreign depradation. Plus, while Set doesn't have a massive formal deific presence on Toril itself, on the planes at large he has more power than virtually any of the Faerunian gods with the exception of the handful of them that are multispheric in nature (Tyr, Loviatar, etc). They probably don't want to overplay their hand on Toril and risk raising Set's ire on the larger stage were he'd retard any of their plots beyond Toril.
see 02-14-07, 04:30 PM	If those gods of the Faerunian pantheon went after Set we'd have an interesting situation, because while Set is an exile, something of a black sheep of the Egyptian/Mulhorandi pantheon, he's still a member of that pantheon and while they don't get along, they have too much in common in terms of origin, culture, and shared history to not help him out against foreign depradation. Of course, it's not foreign depredation by the Faerunian gods in the scenario above. If Set is trying to expand into Faerunian Pantheon territory, the Faerunian gods are defending themselves from Set's foreign depredation. Further, such conflict would be mandated by Ao under the portfolio rules.
Todesherr 02-14-07, 10:40 PM	If those gods of the Faerunian pantheon went after Set we'd have an interesting situation, because while Set is an exile, something of a black sheep of the Egyptian/Mulhorandi pantheon, he's still a member of that pantheon and while they don't get along, they have too much in common in terms of origin, culture, and shared history to not help him out against foreign depradation. Plus, while Set doesn't have a massive formal deific presence on Toril itself, on the planes at large he has more power than virtually any of the Faerunian gods with the exception of the handful of them that are multispheric in nature (Tyr, Loviatar, etc). They probably don't want to overplay their hand on Toril and risk raising Set's ire on the larger stage were he'd retard any of their plots beyond Toril. Yes but how often do we see the 'vast planar' basis of power of multispheric deities? All I am saying is that we don't see any differences in the FR campaign setting...regardless of how great a power Set might be...hmm...I could see Set taking out Cyric and taking his portfolio and then as a fellow LE power allying himself with Bane...whacha think about that idea?
ZolDarklock 02-14-07, 11:54 PM	Set and Bane tag teaming, that would scare the hell out of even Shar Set on every other world has always been the outcast, and on every other world he has managed to become that worlds most feared god, I see no reason why his string of upset victories shouldn't continue, maybe superior intelligence in the way a god plans his takeovers does give that god an advantage seems every known world has a Set lurking somewhere, to me Set seems to have the top spot on the overall multiverse powerscale what I don't understand is the Mulhorandi pantheon rules, Set killed Osirius for the leadership position, and he gets demoted to outcast, banished, and imprisoned in the Raurin "I think the Raurin for Set was the old rabbit and the briar patch syndrome, e.t., exactly where he wanted to be" and all his temples sacked and burned
Mirtek 02-16-07, 10:55 AM	Or Cyric taking it to the planes and slaying Set (while Set has more overall influence, he has less personal power) and suddenly gaining all of Set's cults on all the different worlds (either being used as extra fuel for his plans on Toril or being a reason for Cyric to abandon most of his interest for Toril)
Soltares 02-16-07, 10:00 PM	While I have no idea how this would apply to the situation Set is in, it would seem from a business model standpoint that he, and other multispheric dieties, like Tiamat or the Seldarine or Tyr or Loviatar, have spread out their resources and 'diversified,' meaning that they will be less likely to compete mano-e-mano with a dedicated 'specialized' god like Bane or Lathandar, but at the same time, have many 'fallback' positions. If the FR aspect of Lathandar dies, that's it. It's not like Apollo or Heironyus or Corean counts as a 'fallback,' despite being similar gods. If Set's avatar in the Realms gets killed off, by Bane, for instance, he's still got energy invested in other worlds, and could come trickling back in without nearly as much hassle as a dedicated god like Bane himself. So he'd likely be weaker, having 'spread himself thin,' as compared to someone like Bane. Set's a tricky one, since the 'real-world' Set started out as a warrior god who defended the sun from the dark serpent Apophis, and didn't at all fit the definition of 'evil.' (He was also the god of beer, so religious ceremonies must have been interesting...) After the Greeks took over Egypt, they associated him with Typhon, and his aspect became more of the dark evil treacherous outcast serpent-god which seems to be the version the Realms is using. To Realms-ize this, the original Mulhorandi Set might have been a good or neutral aligned god who was co-opted by some evil force, perhaps even having been killed and replaced, but more likely simply corrupted in some manner, to become the evil outcast he is in the current generation. Various elder elemental evils, far realms nasties, demon lords, etc. could be tied to this, but, given his nature, some sort of evil force from the elemental planes, perhaps related to the Efreet or Dao, would be a good place to start. And so Set becomes the 'great betrayer.' He couldn't have *started* evil, as you can never be 'betrayed' by an enemy. If an enemy stabs you in the back, he's just acting within his nature, it's no more 'betrayal' than the scorpion is being treacherous for stinging you. No, he can only be a 'betrayer,' if he turned on those who were once his friends, on those who trusted him to fight at their side...
ripvanwormer 02-17-07, 12:04 AM	Set was banished from the Mulhorandi pantheon for killing Osirus in his bid to be the pantheons leader, not sure how he didn't get it since the former pantheon leader was killed off, and Set killed off Osirius his only real competiton for the leadrship role, I guess the best/brightest and the winner aren't allowed to assume the leadership thru some arcane pantheon rule... No, that's not right. After Osiris died, the competition was between Set and Horus. Osiris was no longer eligible for the leadership role, since he was dead (cut into little pieces, his man-part cut off with the rest of him). Ra favored Set at first, but Horus castrated his enemy, so he became the king. (The avatar of) Ra died later on in the war with the orcish gods, but at that point succession had already been decided. Or Cyric taking it to the planes and slaying Set (while Set has more overall influence, he has less personal power) Barely. Cyric is DvR 17, Set is DvR 16. Cyric couldn't try something like that without risking his own eternal existence. If we compare Cyric's stats in Faiths and Pantheons with Set's in Deities & Demigods, Set has substantially more hit points, better BAB, and deals out much more damage. Cyric's main advantage is his power over illusion, but in another god's realm, which Set has had countless millennia to fortify against intruders? I don't think he'd dare unless he was buzzing on the Cyrinishad.
Mirtek 02-17-07, 07:30 AM	Barely. Cyric is DvR 17, Set is DvR 16. Cyric couldn't try something like that without risking his own eternal existence. If we compare Cyric's stats in Faiths and Pantheons with Set's in Deities & Demigods, Set has substantially more hit points, better BAB, and deals out much more damage. Cyric's main advantage is his power over illusion, but in another god's realm, which Set has had countless millennia to fortify against intruders? I don't think he'd dare unless he was buzzing on the Cyrinishad. That's only if you really take 3e DDG as Set as the "new D&D Set". Don't forget that Set was an intermedaite power in 2e (yes, he was a greater power in 1e, but that was before the intermediate rank has been created), not a greater power (he's still an intermediate power in F&P). So we can either consider Set a CE greater power who is merely restricted to be unable to send more power to Realmspace than an intermediate power could send (bad bandwith is an issue even with divine connections to crystal spheres) or he's still the LE 2nd edition Set who is "only" an intermediate deity. It would of course still be a risk against an intermediate Set, but nothing is without risk in a cosmic game like that. But if a clash is inevitable anyway, better stike first.
Todesherr 02-17-07, 07:59 AM	That's only if you really take 3e DDG as Set as the "new D&D Set". Don't forget that Set was an intermedaite power in 2e (yes, he was a greater power in 1e, but that was before the intermediate rank has been created), not a greater power (he's still an intermediate power in F&P). So we can either consider Set a CE greater power who is merely restricted to be unable to send more power to Realmspace than an intermediate power could send (bad bandwith is an issue even with divine connections to crystal spheres) or he's still the LE 2nd edition Set who is "only" an intermediate deity. It would of course still be a risk against an intermediate Set, but nothing is without risk in a cosmic game like that. But if a clash is inevitable anyway, better stike first. Schon komisch, ne? Denn ich kann mich gut erinnern, dass Set der Bereich Chaos im Portfolio zugeschrieben wird, obwohl seine Gesinnung als Rechtschaffen Boese beschrieben wird.... My sincerest apologies on having to request this but please provide English translations through sites like babelfish if you cannot post in English. Thank you. -- Shadow
Mirtek 02-17-07, 01:37 PM	Schon komisch, ne? Denn ich kann mich gut erinnern, dass Set der Bereich Chaos im Portfolio zugeschrieben wird, obwohl seine Gesinnung als Rechtschaffen Boese beschrieben wird.... Chaos wasn't listed in his 2e portfolio (at least neither in On Hallowed Grounds not in Powers & Pantheons)
ripvanwormer 02-17-07, 02:44 PM	That's only if you really take 3e DDG as Set as the "new D&D Set". Don't forget that Set was an intermedaite power in 2e I didn't, but if you're going to use Cyric's 3e stats, you kind of have to use Set's 3e stats as well. I don't think we can have the 3e Cyric fighting the 2e Set. I suppose we could discuss 2e Cyric's chances against 2e Set's, but in that case we have to use the 2e On Hallowed Ground rule that being a single-sphere power means the god has essentially no power outside his sphere or outer planar realm (in exactly the same way that Ao has no power outside his sphere). Cyric, in Set's realm, would be essentially mortal. [OHG, 38] Because you were talking about gods killing one another off simply because they had more divine ranks than others, I assumed you must have been talking about 3rd edition, where Set is DvR 16. If you were talking about 2nd edition, your post was simply incorrect.
Mirtek 02-17-07, 04:33 PM	I didn't, but if you're going to use Cyric's 3e stats, you kind of have to use Set's 3e stats as well. I don't think we can have the 3e Cyric fighting the 2e Set. There was no change between 3e Cyric and 2e Cyric, his the greater deity he was in 2e. And Set's 3e FR stats are unknown, the 3e Set in DDG is not the FR set (and also not the Planescape Set). I suppose we could discuss 2e Cyric's chances against 2e Set's, but in that case we have to use the 2e On Hallowed Ground rule that being a single-sphere power means the god has essentially no power outside his sphere or outer planar realm (in exactly the same way that Ao has no power outside his sphere). Cyric, in Set's realm, would be essentially mortal. [OHG, 38] That's not true. The different between a SSP and a MSP is only in how many world their word can influence things (and how much it takes to starve them of worship). If Cyric says "jump" only people on Toril will jump, if Set says "jump" people on a hundred different worlds will jump. Jet all this worshippers were in the end not enough to make Set a greater deity. In his realm Cyric is a greater deity with home advantage. Outside his realm Cyric is a greater deity without home advantage. Just like any other deity. If you were talking about 2nd edition, your post was simply incorrect. No. Cyric attacking Set in Set's home realm would be a greater power without any special advantage (beside being a greater power) attacking an intermediate power with home realm advantage. So it's the question whether the homerealm advantage can brigde the gap in personal power or not. The greater influence doesn't help Set in this battle.
ripvanwormer 02-17-07, 10:16 PM	There was no change between 3e Cyric and 2e Cyric, his the greater deity he was in 2e. He has the same divine rank, but his stats are expressed differently. It's like comparing 2nd edition Drizzt Do'Urden to 3rd edition Wulfgar - they're both mortals in both editions, but it's still a bad comparison. And Set's 3e FR stats are unknown, the 3e Set in DDG is not the FR set (and also not the Planescape Set). His FR stats are unimportant, since you suggested that Cyric was going to kill the "master Set," not his manifestation on any particular world. If he's just killing the FR Set, the "real" Set will be unaffected. That's not true. Yes, it is true. On Hallowed Ground, page 38. 'Course, there's a price for being a big fish in a little pond. A local god might reach great heights of power, but it matters only on his chosen world. See, the belief that makes him strong emanates from just one place, while most deities on the Outer Planes have worshipers across the Prime. I don't see how they could have made it any clearer. Any power Cyric has on Toril doesn't matter anywhere else. It's not going to help him in a battle against Set. Elsewhere, he has no belief to empower him. Because belief is power, Set will be powerful anywhere, but Cyric will have no divine powers at all.
HVulpes 02-17-07, 10:26 PM	To get off the Cyric vs. Set subtopic... The fact that he might have to join the pantheon with Cyric, Bane and Shar might be the reasons for capturing Sseth. If Set can absorb the energy of Sseth, he would become the god of the Yuan ti. Which might mean that he would become the leader of a racial pantheon which is allowed to work in the Faerunian gods domains without belonging to their pantheon. Basically Set found a possible divine loophole and is trying to explote it for his own benefit. Plus it might cause his power levels to climb up. Just a thought.
ZolDarklock 02-18-07, 12:16 AM	Set can and is absorbing the power of Sseth, it is just taking awhile, Set is draining him while he sleeps, no sure how long this process will take, but it has already begun... Everyday that passes in the Realms, Set growns steadily stronger, with the bad blood between Set and his own pantheon, I believe Set would love the Faerunian pantheon, unlike the Mulhorandi pantheon not every god in the Faerunian pantheon would join together to stop any plans he has, and they surely wont burn every temple he has down, and drive all his worshippers underground like his pantheon did... I think Set could be the god with the most to gain, and the least to lose, don't forget unlike the other gods on Toril, Set has been kept imprisoned for a long long time, and in a few short years since the ToT and his release he has already managed to drain one dieties power, and now his temples and worshippers no longer have to hide or die, I assume his worship base will grow rapidly now, more than any other dieties
Mirtek 02-19-07, 10:01 AM	I don't see how they could have made it any clearer. Any power Cyric has on Toril doesn't matter anywhere else. It's not going to help him in a battle against Set. Elsewhere, he has no belief to empower him. Because belief is power, Set will be powerful anywhere, but Cyric will have no divine powers at all. It's not Cyric's power on Toril, it's Cyric's power on the planes that matters. This power is fueled from Toril, but goes whereever Cyric goes on the planes. Cyric can't use his power over lies to trouble Set's cults on some foreign world, because he has no power on this foreign world without first etablishing a divine link. But on the planes Cyric is a deity, no matter whether he's currently sitting on his throne in his domain or visiting the Abyss or the Nine Hells.
Andyr 02-19-07, 12:50 PM	Set can and is absorbing the power of Sseth, it is just taking awhile, Set is draining him while he sleeps, no sure how long this process will take, but it has already begun... The thing I don't really get about this is, IIRC, Set is LE while Ssethh is CE. Won't the yuan-ti notice when their deity's character seems to have changed from a Chaotic to a Lawful perspective--or, if it doesn't change, isn't LE Set concerned about possibly becoming CE?
ripvanwormer 02-19-07, 01:39 PM	It's not Cyric's power on Toril, it's Cyric's power on the planes that matters. This power is fueled from Toril, but goes whereever Cyric goes on the planes. You're simply wrong about this. Reread the quote above. The correct interpretation should be obvious. It doesn't say their power doesn't matter on any other Material Plane worlds - it says it matters only on their chosen worlds. "Only on their chosen worlds" means not the planes, either. Cyric can't use his power over lies to trouble Set's cults on some foreign world, because he has no power on this foreign world without first etablishing a divine link. That's true. He also can't use his power to trouble Set himself unless he establishes himself on a world other than Toril first. But there's a price to pay for that. If he's concentrating on multiple worlds, he's not likely to be as powerful on Toril. As Bane, who concentrates on Toril exclusively, takes advantage of Cyric's lapse of concentration to steal his faithful, Cyric will likely dwindle to an intermediate power or lesser, but if his new cult is successful he'll become a multi-sphere deity, and be able to challenge Set on his own terms (too bad the older and cannier Set is still a greater deity on the planes). The point that On Hallowed Ground was making was that there's always a price to pay. Single-sphere deities are strong on one world but powerless elsewhere. The book specifically compares this situation to Ao's, whose word is law on Toril but doesn't mean a thing anywhere else in the multiverse. Cyric can't hurt Set any more than Ao can. Both can banish Set's Torilian aspect, but the god's true self is immune to anything either of them can muster. Think about it rationally: if the overdeity Ao can't kill Set, Cyric (a mere greater god) certainly can't. By your interpretation, the advantages to being an evil single-sphere deity are overwhelming. Concentrate on one world, become overwhelmingly powerful on that world (and thus, the planes as a whole), then murder a less powerful multi-sphere deity and gain influence on many worlds at once. In On Hallowed Ground, however, such a get-rich-quick scheme is impossible. Being a single-sphere god has a price - not just the obvious one that single-sphere gods don't have power over multiple worlds, but a real price that means they have correspondingly less power on the planes. If this wasn't true, multi-sphere deities would be idiots - why should they waste their time and resources on multiple worlds when they can gain more power on the planes by concentrating on just one?
ripvanwormer 02-19-07, 05:49 PM	Although, granted, I should note that Talona did kill Kiputytto, and Moander did corrupt Tyche. I don't think that's incompatible with my statements above, though it does mitigate them somewhat. Possibly, it suggests that Talona and Moander were worshiped on more than one world (Moander did have the saurial world later on). Or possibly it means that Kiputytto and Tyche allowed themselves to become single-sphere powers in an attempt to survive (which On Hallowed Ground does suggest to some extent). Another interpretation is that it's possible for a single-sphere deity to affect a multi-sphere deity, though it's more difficult than it would be to affect a deity exclusive to their own sphere.
see 02-19-07, 06:14 PM	Which Set are we talking about, again? The 3rd edition lawful intermediate god who dwells in Heliopolis of the Great Tree, the 3rd edition chaotic greater god who dwells in the Twelve Hours of Night of the Pharaonic Cosmology, or the 2nd edition lawful intermediate god who dwells in the Nine Hells of the Great Wheel? Because, to my mind, we have at least two gods there, and probably three.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-19-07, 06:22 PM	Which Set are we talking about, again? or the 2nd edition lawful intermediate god who dwells in the Nine Hells of the Great Wheel? And in 3.5 he's still in his divine domain in Stygia. Fiendish Codex II reaffirmed this.
MarkusTay63 02-19-07, 11:41 PM	And in 3.5 he's still in his divine domain in Stygia. Fiendish Codex II reaffirmed this.Another point for the Wheel! :D
Mirtek 02-20-07, 03:58 AM	You're simply wrong about this. Reread the quote above. The correct interpretation should be obvious. It doesn't say their power doesn't matter on any other Material Plane worlds - it says it matters only on their chosen worlds. "Only on their chosen worlds" means not the planes, either. This means that every power is completly powerless once it leaves the prime material plane. Since no power other than demipowers actually lives on the prime, all powers are totally powerless. That's true. He also can't use his power to trouble Set himself unless he establishes himself on a world other than Toril first. No, that wouldn't matter. Even then his power would only matter on the worlds where he is worshipped. It still wouldn't matter in the planes. The point that On Hallowed Ground was making was that there's always a price to pay. Single-sphere deities are strong on one world but powerless elsewhere. This powerless elsewhere refers to power to influence other worlds, it does not mean that they have to leave their power at the door if they leave their chosen world. Almost none of these deities lives on their chosen world, they're not allowed to live on their chosen world. Both can banish Set's Torilian aspect, but the god's true self is immune to anything either of them can muster. Actually it's not really possible to banish a local aspect. How should this work?`Should Cyric slay Set on Toril? Neitehr Cyric nor Set can ever enter Toril, they're not allowed to do so. Should an avatar of Cyric slay an avatar on Set? There's no evidence that the loss of an avatar banishes the power from the world where the avatar was lost. The only way for Set and Cyric to battle it out would be to meet in the planes. Single spheric powers have wandered the planes and flung divine powers outside there homerealms. By your interpretation, the advantages to being an evil single-sphere deity are overwhelming. Concentrate on one world, become overwhelmingly powerful on that world (and thus, the planes as a whole), then murder a less powerful multi-sphere deity and gain influence on many worlds at once. Slaying a rival deity doesn't automatically grant access to his former power. If this wasn't true, multi-sphere deities would be idiots - why should they waste their time and resources on multiple worlds when they can gain more power on the planes by concentrating on just one? The real questions is why there are such things as mutli-spheric demigods anyway. Multiple worlds should easily give enough power to at least be a lesser deity (or they really only have 10 worshippers on each world or what?)
ripvanwormer 02-20-07, 01:35 PM	This means that every power is completly powerless once it leaves the prime material plane. Of course they're powerful within their own realms as well. Material elsewhere in the book about the power of deities in their realms is well-established. Even then his power would only matter on the worlds where he is worshipped. It seems there's a point where once a god gets power from enough worlds at once, they have power everywhere. Maybe that point starts at two worlds, or maybe the threshold is higher. This powerless elsewhere refers to power to influence other worlds That's not what it says. If that were true, then Ao could kill Set - he is, after all, much more powerful. He can't, though, because he's a single-sphere power. Actually it's not really possible to banish a local aspect. Lolth did it with Zinzerena. Hoar did it with Ramman. Merrshaulk did it with Jazirian. There are other examples as well. How should this work?`Should Cyric slay Set on Toril? No, that's not necessary. Arguably, any action Cyric takes against Set affects only his Torilian aspect, no matter where they fight. The real questions is why there are such things as mutli-spheric demigods anyway. Multiple worlds should easily give enough power to at least be a lesser deity (or they really only have 10 worshippers on each world or what?) On Hallowed Ground says there are multi-spheric deities, and that though they're less powerful than their single-sphere equivalents in any single sphere, they make up for this by having power to affect the multiverse as a whole, not just their own cosmology. They operate, I think, on completely different scales. For a single-sphere deity, 2000 worshipers might be enough to make lesser deity status. For a multi-spheric deity, they might need an average of 2000 worshipers on each world they're worshiped on. There really does seem to be a quantum leap between the two types of deities.
Mirtek 02-20-07, 02:04 PM	Of course they're powerful within their own realms as well. Material elsewhere in the book about the power of deities in their realms is well-established. So how should a single spheric power ever claim a realm? That's not what it says. If that were true, then Ao could kill Set - he is, after all, much more powerful. He can't, though, because he's a single-sphere power. Celestian was afraid to anger Ao and thus refused to bring Waukeen the whole way back to her realm. Lolth did it with Zinzerena. Hoar did it with Ramman. Merrshaulk did it with Jazirian. There are other examples as well. Most likely not by challenging the other power on the planes, or the other power would be death. On Hallowed Ground says there are multi-spheric deities, and that though they're less powerful than their single-sphere equivalents in any single sphere, they make up for this by having power to affect the multiverse as a whole, not just their own cosmology. That because if Auril makes it snow it only snows on Toril, if a multisperhic power of cold makes it snow, it snows on a several worlds. It doesn't mean that Auril needs to worry about being eaten by a balor the moment she steps out of her realm. Mystra killed devils in hell, Cyric just claimed a new realm in Pandemonium after he was realmless because he lost the realm in Hades. Other demipowers left the prime to claim a new planar realm (some as demipowers, other after ascension to higher level), taking what was not theirs before. They operate, I think, on completely different scales. For a single-sphere deity, 2000 worshipers might be enough to make lesser deity status. For a multi-spheric deity, they might need an average of 2000 worshipers on each world they're worshiped on. There really does seem to be a quantum leap between the two types of deities. That might be an explanation. However it's still not the "voluntary start singlespheric and then eat a weaker multispheric power" strategie. It's not sure that the attacker get's all what once belonged to the dead power and it's still not easy to simply become a strong singlespheric power (hundreds tried and failed)
ripvanwormer 02-20-07, 06:02 PM	Celestian was afraid to anger Ao and thus refused to bring Waukeen the whole way back to her realm. Celestian didn't refuse to do anything. The route was Waukeen's bright idea (unless she was unknowingly influenced by Graz'zt). Reread For Duty & Deity, page 4: "Waukeen planned to journey through the Lower Planes, thus most effectively avoiding Ao’s possible detection of her movements and allowing her to approach her realm indirectly." It wasn't Celestian who feared Ao, but Waukeen. It never suggests, even slightly, that Celestian had anything to fear. The problem was that if Celestian brought her directly to the Outlands, Ao might snatch Waukeen from him. Ao, of course, retains authority over Waukeen on the planes, which explains the need for secrecy. Similarly, all single-sphere deities retain power over things related to their function in their home sphere, regardless of where they go. Thus, they can create realms, defend themselves from balors, and perform many other tasks. They cannot, however, interfere with things particular to other spheres of existence - in that respect, they're no more powerful than mortals (this is true for Ao as well). Auril can create snow on Toril, and she can do things on the planes related to her function of creating snow on Toril. She can't go to Telchur's realm, which probably borders her own in Pandemonium, and kill him. Her divine abilities wouldn't help her there unless she gained a following on Oerth. With a following on Oerth, fighting Telchur would be a natural extension of her portfolio. She can't kill Loki either, despite sharing a realm with him. It's not that she becomes powerless in her own realm - it's just that killing Loki is beyond the limits of her power. These limitations are the price of being a single-sphere deity. She could, however, defend herself from Loki. Remaining alive is obviously important if she is to continue doing her duties on Toril, and therefore she could use all the power granted to her as a lesser goddess to fend the Trickster off. Not that that'd do her a lot of good, since he's apparently a greater deity now. Of course, this is all speculation on my part. An equally good interpretation would be to say that Auril does indeed have to worry about stray balors killing her outside her realm. I don't think we need to go that far, but it's a valid argument. Most likely not by challenging the other power on the planes Where did they challenge them, then? You said yourself that they can't enter Toril in person. It had to be on the planes, except in those examples (like the battle between Gruumsh and Ra, and during the Time of Troubles) that took place in avatar form under special conditions that prevented the god from simply creating new avatars. Mystra killed devils in hell The assumption behind Elminster in Hell was that Mystra was the only goddess of magic in the multiverse, and thus had great powers everywhere. The Planescape schema, which is what we're talking about, doesn't share the same basic principles. Thus, Elminster in Hell isn't a valid source for this particular argument. Cyric just claimed a new realm in Pandemonium Yes, he did, and there's nothing inconsistent with that fact. Deities have the power to create realms. The realms appear automatically, as a physical manifestation of mortal faith. They can also move these realms from plane to plane or claim new ones if their old ones are usurped. This is an integral part of being a deity, whether multi-spheric or single-sphere. It's not sure that the attacker get's all what once belonged to the dead power and it's still not easy to simply become a strong singlespheric power (hundreds tried and failed) Now I'm confused. You started this by claiming that Cyric should kill Set and claim all his worshipers on all the worlds he is known. Or Cyric taking it to the planes and slaying Set (while Set has more overall influence, he has less personal power) and suddenly gaining all of Set's cults on all the different worlds (either being used as extra fuel for his plans on Toril or being a reason for Cyric to abandon most of his interest for Toril) Now you're saying he can't do that? I never claimed it was "easy" to become a strong single-sphere deity; that's a straw man. However, it is far easier than it is to become a strong multi-spheric deity. I also never claimed a god who murdered another god was sure to get "all" that once belonged to the dead god (although this has been known to happen). You, however, claimed exactly that (or at least implied it), so at this point you're only debating yourself.
ZolDarklock 02-20-07, 11:53 PM	Quote: Or Cyric taking it to the planes and slaying Set (while Set has more overall influence, he has less personal power) and suddenly gaining all of Set's cults on all the different worlds (either being used as extra fuel for his plans on Toril or being a reason for Cyric to abandon most of his interest for Toril) Set has different power levels on many worlds, some worlds he's a greater power other worlds an intermediate, other worlds a lesser, other worlds a demi-power and some worlds he doesn't exist there yet... Cyric is only on one world In the grand schemes of things, Cyric is not even in the same realm of power as Set, and Set has survived against all odds on many many different worlds, and as far as I can tell, Set may be on more worlds than any other diety in existance, I don't recall Set ever worrying about losing power, even after his own Pantheon on Toril exiled him, burned every temple of his they could find of his to the ground, and hunted all his worshippers down, he didn't seem to be concerned about it at all, matter of fact he seems to have gone thru this scenario on many different worlds and has always came back stronger afterwards, even his banishment to the desert is an old punishment he has gone thru on many worlds, Set kinda reminds me of the ole briar rabbit tale, "please pantheon whatever you do dont lock me away forever in the desert as punishment, anything but that" hahahahah it seems Set gets what Set wants And as far as worrying about Cyric or any other diety on Toril, it seems to me Set has more experience at diety killing than any other diety does, I don't recall any novel, tale, movie, or game world where Set has not slayed other dieties, and his millions of years of experience at it takes preceedence to me over some newbie punk no matter what his power level is
Mirtek 03-03-07, 08:33 AM	Celestian didn't refuse to do anything. [...] It wasn't Celestian who feared Ao, but Waukeen. It never suggests, even slightly, that Celestian had anything to fear. Actually he did, I just got it wrong. He did not refuse to take Waukeen directly back to her layer, he refused to take Liira with Waukeen because he felt only helping Waukeen was already enough risk for him (page 4: "He refused to include Lliira in the bargain, since he felt he was already taking sufficient risk in simply transporting Waukeen from the Prime.) Where did they challenge them, then? Most likely it would be a clash of their cults on Toril, eradicating the weaker cult. In a direct duell on the planes it's unlikely that the loser would have survived. ]You started this by claiming that Cyric should kill Set and claim all his worshipers on all the worlds he is known. [...] Or Cyric taking it to the planes and slaying Set (while Set has more overall influence, he has less personal power) and suddenly gaining all of Set's cults on all the different worlds (either being used as extra fuel for his plans on Toril or being a reason for Cyric to abandon most of his interest for Toril) Now you're saying he can't do that? I presented that as a possible szenario, not as something that would automatically happen. You don't even automatically gain anything from slaying a fellow power from the same pantheon (or as a mortal with divine aid slaying a power from your world on the planes). The victor may gain the spoils of his conquest or he may be left with nothing more than he already had. But if Cyric would simply slay Set and gain nothing it wouldn't have any impact on his overall activities and thus this scenario would be futile as it wouldn't change anything. So I suggest the more interesting scenario. The assumption behind Elminster in Hell was that Mystra was the only goddess of magic in the multiverse, and thus had great powers everywhere. The Planescape schema, which is what we're talking about, doesn't share the same basic principles. Thus, Elminster in Hell isn't a valid source for this particular argument. They also flung divine powers on other planes during the 2e novels still using the Planescape Background. Yes, he did, and there's nothing inconsistent with that fact. Deities have the power to create realms. The realms appear automatically, as a physical manifestation of mortal faith. They can also move these realms from plane to plane or claim new ones if their old ones are usurped. This is an integral part of being a deity, whether multi-spheric or single-sphere. So just go and claim the realm of the deity you want to challenge as the new place for your realms ;) Set has different power levels on many worlds, some worlds he's a greater power other worlds an intermediate, other worlds a lesser, other worlds a demi-power and some worlds he doesn't exist there yet... Actually no, Set only had one powerlevel accros all worlds. There were others with different levels on different worlds, and that was never really explained. As there still was only one single version of the power, the power herself could only have one divine strata. So a power that is a lesser power on world A and a demigod on world B is either a lesser deity, who has only restriced access to project power to world B or a demipower who gains some sort of multiplier for all power she sends to world A. and as far as I can tell, Set may be on more worlds than any other diety in existance How did you come to this conclusion? He's multispheric, but there are no clues that he's "more multispheric" than others. Not even that he could etablish himself on worlds that don't know about the rest of his pantheon or that his pantheon has a greater number of worlds than the greek or chinese pantheon. They could be the biggest or they could be the smallest.
ripvanwormer 03-03-07, 09:02 PM	Actually he did, I just got it wrong. He did not refuse to take Waukeen directly back to her layer, he refused to take Liira with Waukeen because he felt only helping Waukeen was already enough risk for him (page 4: "He refused to include Lliira in the bargain, since he felt he was already taking sufficient risk in simply transporting Waukeen from the Prime.) On Hallowed Ground says outright that overpowers have no power outside the concerns of his own sphere, though it's possible that because Celestian was directly interfering with one of "his" gods, he might have had some ability to act in this situation. More likely, the risk was that Celestian, a single-sphere power himself (though he has a lot more worshipers outside Oerth than Waukeen has outside Toril, he has no significant base on any other worlds, just among planar travelers and spelljammers) was interfering in a situation where he had very little divine power available. When it comes to the affairs of the gods of Toril (where he has no worshipers), Celestian was only of mortal power, no stronger than any other being with access to the Astral Plane. Therefore, his concern about the danger might not have had anything directly to do with Ao at all, but only his increased vulnerability to all dangers in such a situation. Most likely it would be a clash of their cults on Toril, eradicating the weaker cult. No, I think we know for a fact that in at least some of these cases it was a clash between the deities themselves. They also flung divine powers on other planes during the 2e novels still using the Planescape Background. It took me a little while to figure out what you were saying here. You meant, I think, that "single-spheric deities displayed divine powers on planes other than their own." Well, yes of course they did. I'm certainly not trying to say that deities from the same sphere can't affect one another! That's different from showing power over multi-spheric gods or planar rulers, which is the primary issue in contention. I'm not claiming that single-sphere deities literally become mortal outside their realms, only that they have no power to act in situations that don't concern them. The FR novels are about deities engaging in intrigue among themselves: Lathander trying to merge Tymora and Beshaba, for example, or Cyric on trial for not properly executing his duties. Naturally, they're able to do that much. However, that's a long way from pointing out a situation where, for example, Mystra enters Asmodeus' palace in Nessus undetected and wipes his memory. I think that was over the top even in the Great Tree cosmology. I'll also point out that "novels using the Planescape Background" are very seldom true to actual Planescape, as the Blood War trilogy amply proves. So just go and claim the realm of the deity you want to challenge as the new place for your realms What would that accomplish? At most, Set would have to move to a neighboring realm. Personally, I'd argue that a multi-spheric deity would automatically defeat a single-sphere deity in such a contest.