Post/Author/DateTime	Post
theartistformerlyknownas 05-02-07, 06:35 PM	From what I hear, Vhaeraun and Selvatarm are dead? What in the Nine Hells is going in?
Zanan 05-02-07, 06:40 PM	Read Lady Penitent I ... we are thus far not yet sure who is dead or not. Sure is Lolth is alive and well, as is Kiaransalee. Ghanaudaur has not shown up either. Selvetarm got inbetween Eilistraee and Lolth and - apparently - did things the Dark Mother did not approve of. Vhaearun tried to enter Eilistraee's realm and as far as we know, failed spectacularly. But who knows for real what is going on with gods ...
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 12:42 PM	-I'm rooting for Ghaunadaur and Kiaransalee!
The Ubbergeek 05-03-07, 01:42 PM	I hope Eilistraee don't get a bad side effect from all of this. :(
Cryto 05-03-07, 03:28 PM	Honestly I hope Kiaransalee takes over one day :)
Infinitum 05-03-07, 03:33 PM	I hope Eilistraee dies in the end, I really do. I think what she is trying to do is interesting, but she doesn't fit well with me.
XHereticX 05-04-07, 07:55 PM	Honestly I hope Kiaransalee takes over one day :) I hope she gets eaten by Orcus, but that is just me.;) Anyway Elistraee is not going to die, the FR always needs a light of hope for the drow. Lolth and Elistraee will probably be the only drow deities left at the end.
The Ubbergeek 05-05-07, 10:05 AM	Infinitum, she is an example of the ideas that nothing is ever black or white in the world. if she disapeared, the world would become abit more like GH, who tend to be stereotypical and very contrasted, black white. FR always had a part of moral shades and grey. Well, it's how I see it. plus, perhaps with the (tenuous yeah) links she kept with some elves, Corelion would get interested in what happens, which could bring some delightfull complication to the matter..., Can we say 'war of the divorced exes'? ;)
Ramenth 05-07-07, 01:06 PM	I'm not overly convinced that Vhaerun is dead given what was described in the Sava game. It seems like he got himself 'killed' willingly.
Lord Karsus 05-07-07, 02:51 PM	I'm not overly convinced that Vhaerun is dead given what was described in the Sava game. It seems like he got himself 'killed' willingly. -Let's see the body before we declare Vhaeraun dead...
Boda 05-07-07, 03:00 PM	Mask got'im tied in the basement, waiting for the ransom.
Zanan 05-08-07, 07:13 AM	-Let's see the body before we declare Vhaeraun dead... Ever heard of destruction or disintegrate? ;)
Khaelieth 05-08-07, 07:50 AM	Pfsch. Vhaeraun is almost as smart as an average sun elf. I don't see him going down because some wee flaptongue went and told the Dancing Harlot that he was coming on a wee friendly visit...
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 09:26 AM	Ever heard of destruction or disintegrate? ;) -There'd still be some dust, or something. :P -Well, wait a minute. He is a deity, so when/if he dies, he will leave a petrified "corpse" in the Astral.
Khaelieth 05-08-07, 11:09 AM	Or... a nipple left! YESH. *Puts Vhaeraun's nipple on a string* *Parades* But I reckon Selvetarm might be done for. But couldn't one get "Servant of the Fallen" feat now to worship either?
Lord_Steve 05-08-07, 12:41 PM	The last book ended with Vhaeruns mask popping up on Elistraees face yes? ...... Man I hope that Vhaerun eats that hipocrite from the inside out and take over!.....Then he'd maybe have enough power to go after the other gods, eat them then go for his ugly mommy and swallow her up! In the end, Vhaerun becomes the sole ruler of the Drow! The surface be warned!!!!!! *Shake his fist in the air*
Tevin Kevlak 05-08-07, 02:55 PM	-Let's see the body before we declare Vhaeraun dead... Oh, there's a body alright. I believe the Gith are currently looking for tenants.
Steelwind 05-13-07, 10:32 AM	Man I hope Vhaerun's not dead, hes probably my favorite drow diety, well him and Eilistraee, but for two different reasons. Never much cared for Selvetarm, always seemed like a little punk to me, so I wouldnt be shedding too many tears for him. Ghaun's not bad but I can take or leave and Kiar will come through Im sure, I really liked her whole ordeal with Orcus so I will be interested in seeing more of that. And of coarse we all know Lolth isnt going anywhere.
Lady_Mhaor 05-13-07, 10:47 AM	Mask got'im tied in the basement, waiting for the ransom. :dancin: :cheer: :dancin: :drool: :w00t: What other was can I express that this would be awesomeness reincarnated as a shade?
Khaelieth 05-13-07, 12:44 PM	I really don't want any drow deities to die (well, Eilistraae could take a kicking without me being too angry) - I wubs them all. Selvetarm and his judicators are just... METAL \m/ Vhaeraun is just awesome, the masked god is the ultimate sneaky punk. Ghaunadaur just fits so well in with the more depraved drow. Any demon prince that can masquerade as a drow god is cool. Kiaransalee is soooo cool, she might be the coolest one of the lot, she's got the yathrinshees (sp?) Lolth and her bloated belly are alright, as the head of the Dark Seldarine, she's a good counterweight to the Seldarine.
QuenthelsChampion 05-13-07, 01:06 PM	Well first i would like to say that Vhaerun is dead because i said so and he was sadly the most useless drow diety i've ever seen. He has a great evil plan then never has a backup plan so he floats and sputters then poofs cursing. Any good drow has atleast one backup plan.That and he claims for equality, but in anything with Vhaerun in it the males are in control and the females are concubines. Though he made a good enemy at times i feel that he should have died in a better way, but then again i say the same with Selvetarm. Also I bought the new novel with Aliisza and Kaanyr and it has a sentence summary of the next two books in the Lady Penitent series. The new one is going to be about Lolth killing the rest of the drow pantheon(booooo) while Halisstra is killing Elis worshippers. and in the final book a showdown between the last two remaining dieties. Elis and Lolth. QC
Khaelieth 05-13-07, 01:10 PM	Pfsch. Vhaeraun useless? Hardly. He's really chilling in Cormanthor somewhere, smoking his pipe and having hundreds of willing drow females at his beck and call. I.e. he's not dead or tied up in Mask's cellar.
Lady_Mhaor 05-13-07, 01:52 PM	Or is that just what the shadowlord wants you to think?
XHereticX 05-13-07, 05:27 PM	Well first i would like to say that Vhaerun is dead because i said so and he was sadly the most useless drow diety i've ever seen. He has a great evil plan then never has a backup plan so he floats and sputters then poofs cursing. Any good drow has atleast one backup plan.That and he claims for equality, but in anything with Vhaerun in it the males are in control and the females are concubines. Though he made a good enemy at times i feel that he should have died in a better way, but then again i say the same with Selvetarm. Also I bought the new novel with Aliisza and Kaanyr and it has a sentence summary of the next two books in the Lady Penitent series. The new one is going to be about Lolth killing the rest of the drow pantheon(booooo) while Halisstra is killing Elis worshippers. and in the final book a showdown between the last two remaining dieties. Elis and Lolth. QC Yup, that is bascically what is going to happen. Though I wished Vhaeraun was absorbed by Mask instead of Elistraee.
Lord Karsus 05-13-07, 07:23 PM	-Corellon Larethian did decree, long ago, that the day he placed a hand on his sister would be his last... -I'm not counting Vhaeraun out, though. If Smedman was given the okay to kill off the entire Drow pantheon, I am leaving the Realms, though. That's just stupid...One of the things that make Faerûn's Drow unique is that there are many other alternatives to just Lolth.
Zandilar 05-13-07, 07:39 PM	Heya, -I'm not counting Vhaeraun out, though. If Smedman was given the okay to kill off the entire Drow pantheon, I am leaving the Realms, though. That's just stupid...One of the things that make Faerûn's Drow unique is that there are many other alternatives to just Lolth. You know, I think I'm with you LK. I don't mind if Vhaeraun and Selvatarm stay dead, though I'm not opposed to either of them coming back. However, change Eilistraee? Or kill her off? I fear my "Realms heart" would be broken, and I would not be able to recover. :weep: The trouble is, that's exactly what I'm expecting. :mad:
Lord Karsus 05-13-07, 07:41 PM	I fear my "Realms heart" would be broken, and I would not be able to recover. :weep: -I know...I know...Shh...Let it all out...Everything will be okay...
QuenthelsChampion 05-14-07, 12:08 PM	Pfsch. Vhaeraun useless? Hardly. He's really chilling in Cormanthor somewhere, smoking his pipe and having hundreds of willing drow females at his beck and call. I.e. he's not dead or tied up in Mask's cellar. well Cormanthor is being taken back by Evermeet and Halisstra is still probally killing off all the Vhaerun worshippers in the forest. Soo Vhaerun if in Cormanthor is probally hiding within a little cave biding his time making up another plan that will fail horribly. I mean i know he's probally the second most popular diety because mostly men play this game and who wants to live in a society were women rule, but i liked Selvetarm he was the only god that could be safely worshipped by males. I will miss Kir but other then that i cannot wait to see the battle between Elis and Lolth i really don't know who to root for. QC
Steelwind 05-14-07, 12:31 PM	So any clue on when we get a defenitive answer on what fates become the powers of the dark seldarine.
Alediran 05-14-07, 12:43 PM	Heya, You know, I think I'm with you LK. I don't mind if Vhaeraun and Selvatarm stay dead, though I'm not opposed to either of them coming back. However, change Eilistraee? Or kill her off? I fear my "Realms heart" would be broken, and I would not be able to recover. :weep: The trouble is, that's exactly what I'm expecting. :mad: I'm with you also, if they kill Eilistraee in the series then I'll stop using novels in my game.
Lord Karsus 05-14-07, 01:55 PM	So any clue on when we get a defenitive answer on what fates become the powers of the dark seldarine. -Probably when the other two installments in the series are published.
Steelwind 05-14-07, 11:00 PM	I may have to check those out seeing as I havent read anything in the War of the Spider Queen series. The last realms novels I read were the Last Mythal trilogy. And being in Japan its not as easy to access some material.
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 09:10 AM	I may have to check those out seeing as I havent read anything in the War of the Spider Queen series. -Reading the War of the Spider Queen series, while definitley recommended, really isn't neccesary.
DojiHoturi 05-16-07, 12:51 AM	After reading 'Widow of the Drow' by Smedman (a mediocre read, IMHO), I am a bit surprised myself. That was a bold bit of potential canon material. I am loath to think of the ultimate results. It does seem a bit sudden, but things in the Realms have changed dramatically before. Still, 'killing' two drow deities in one book is no joke. If Lolth takes out the others and leaves a big showdown between Eilistraee and herself at the end leaving only one drow goddess...why I am not sure what that could mean... ...I mean, holy crap, what if it is just Lolth? what if it is just Eilistraee? What if actually none of them have actually been killed? Well that is not a real big deal, things go on as they have been, but still. I will admit, I like the idea that not all drow are born evil and that there is a goddess there for the ones that seek something different. Hell, the designers have gone out of their way to make sure that individual communities are very different from each other. The differences are so great that it resembles the diversity of the surface nations. I LIKE THAT. Of course my group and I will do what we want, but to pidgeonhole a whole race to one goddess, good or bad, is pretty wacky at best and lame at worst. Rant Follows: And to those of you that do not like the idea that players like to make their Drizzt clones (or whatever other type of good/neutral drow) and worship deities like Eilistraee, get over it. The whole point is that PCs are special. If they are playing a drow, you could have it so that the only drow good guys are that PC and Drizzt. That makes two in your whole world. Or, if you just will not stand for that, just do not let them play that and have your extremely evil drow doing extremely evil stuff. Most importantly, quit telling people how lame it is that they want to play a certain way. We may not like how you want to play the chaotic evil assassin that loves to jack up his fellow party members just because he can. (Take said example for what its worth, there are plenty of styles of play, and yours is probably equally annoying to someone). For example, I personally find it distasteful to play evil characters. I have tried it, got over my little hang up, and will never ever go back. You may find the classic 'do gooder, goody-two-shoes' style of play equally distasteful. That is fine. I will not tell you yours sucks and I will not tell you yours does. Cool? So it comes down to this, if you do not have positive, or at worst, cautionary, advice or opinion to give, keep it to yourself. The internet is not a good excuse (an excuse, yes, but not a good one) to be a jerk and jam you personal hangups on folks. You can do it, but it does not mean its right. Better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and be proven so. Rant Ends 2 pennies, Doji
The Ubbergeek 05-16-07, 01:04 AM	Well, there is always at least the options for other drow to worship outsider deities - something that some drow do already. Like Loviatar in that surface country, or Shar. And then, that slime god seems to be discrete, hiding.... (or he was slain too?) I'd hate to loose the Dark Dancer, I like her - she fight a nearly doomed, useless fight but keep fighting, and keep hope. (note amusingly, Drizzt don't worship her, but Mielikki as far we know... Ironic - he may have never even heard this name of his life, as far as we know.) Heck, Ed like her also. (I am with you, friend. If the so-good surfacer elves can fall from goddness and become evil, so the reverse is possible, if only by the Cosmic Balance (of course, that is quite rarer and harder...).)
Mikayla 05-16-07, 04:54 AM	I am a Drow and Lolth fan-girl, and I have been for getting close to 30 years (I bought module G3 new, right off the shelf back in the day) and I am something of a fanatic when it comes to Lolth, Lolthian doctrine etc, . . . but . . . . . . I would be pretty damn upset myself if Eilistraee were killed off and Faerun was left with only Lolth. Now, nothing would upset me more than Lolth's demise - but still, I would not want to see Eilistraee go - I like her portrayal a lot. As Zanan frequently points out, she is a Diana like goddess and well portrayed in the materials compared to many deities. So, I can live without Ghaunadaur, and I can live without Selvetarm, and if we HAD to, I could probably live without Vhaerun (though I think things are more interesting with him alive) but really, at the end of the day ... err .. cycle ( ;) ) I would, even in all my Lolthian fan-girlishness, prefer to have Eilistraee survive so that we have some counter point to Lolth.
Alediran 05-16-07, 10:12 AM	I am a Drow and Lolth fan-girl, and I have been for getting close to 30 years (I bought module G3 new, right off the shelf back in the day) and I am something of a fanatic when it comes to Lolth, Lolthian doctrine etc, . . . but . . . . . . I would be pretty damn upset myself if Eilistraee were killed off and Faerun was left with only Lolth. Now, nothing would upset me more than Lolth's demise - but still, I would not want to see Eilistraee go - I like her portrayal a lot. As Zanan frequently points out, she is a Diana like goddess and well portrayed in the materials compared to many deities. So, I can live without Ghaunadaur, and I can live without Selvetarm, and if we HAD to, I could probably live without Vhaerun (though I think things are more interesting with him alive) but really, at the end of the day ... err .. cycle ( ;) ) I would, even in all my Lolthian fan-girlishness, prefer to have Eilistraee survive so that we have some counter point to Lolth. Ladies and gentlement, we have found one of those rare CN priestes of Lolth :D
QuenthelsChampion 05-16-07, 02:48 PM	First I would like to say to DojiHoturi...that...I am a Kachiko fan and play much like a Scorpion. Second the book is called "Sacrifice of the Widow" not drow. and finally I hope that neither Lolth or Elis die. I mean its bad enough im loosing my favorite villian (Kir). But now i have to choose between my little drow priestess that is on the surface trying to combine a good group of duergar and Deep Gnomes near the mountains of Evereska, and my Matron of Maerimydra who exacts Lolths will and took back the city in the name of House Baenre. That just isn't fair i enjoyed having a variety of of drow. Even the surface elves have more then one diety. Every subrace has one then like 5 others for the elf that doesn't follow that path. Why cant the drow? Sad so sad. This can only end in tears... QC
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 03:11 PM	First I would like to say to DojiHoturi...that...I am a Kachiko fan and play much like a Scorpion. Second the book is called "Sacrifice of the Widow" not drow. and finally I hope that neither Lolth or Elis die. I mean its bad enough im loosing my favorite villian (Kir). But now i have to choose between my little drow priestess that is on the surface trying to combine a good group of duergar and Deep Gnomes near the mountains of Evereska, and my Matron of Maerimydra who exacts Lolths will and took back the city in the name of House Baenre. That just isn't fair i enjoyed having a variety of of drow. Even the surface elves have more then one diety. Every subrace has one then like 5 others for the elf that doesn't follow that path. Why cant the drow? Sad so sad. This can only end in tears... QC I think I may be in love..........:love:
Zsych 05-16-07, 03:46 PM	I would be interested to see what effect Elistraee's death has on surface drow. Provided they don't just lose hope. A catastrophic shock like that would create the chance of interesting changes in people with backbone enough to survive it.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 05:18 PM	I would be interested to see what effect Elistraee's death has on surface drow. Provided they don't just lose hope. A catastrophic shock like that would create the chance of interesting changes in people with backbone enough to survive it. -Well, that's if Eilistraee dies. When Vhaeraun "died", his worshippers sure seemed demoralized.
Zsych 05-16-07, 05:26 PM	Wonder how much chance Vhaeraun has of having his clerics restore him or at least try to. Wonder what backups the guy had in place.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 05:35 PM	Wonder how much chance Vhaeraun has of having his clerics restore him or at least try to. Wonder what backups the guy had in place. -Bah, the guy's not even dead. You just watch... -I still say that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun teamed up to knock Lolth down a few notches. Hmm...Maybe they willingly merged to create a powerful "Vhaeraunistraee" to counter Lolth. An all-encompassing clergy to boot.
Alediran 05-16-07, 05:48 PM	-I still say that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun teamed up to knock Lolth down a few notches. Hmm...Maybe they willingly merged to create a powerful "Vhaeraunistraee" to counter Lolth. An all-encompassing clergy to boot. If they manage to balance each other they could become an interesting god. I only hope that Eilistraee continues to be the main manifestation :love: :drool:
Ramenth 05-16-07, 05:52 PM	Remember; The Sava game shows Vhaeraun as giving himself up willingly. There's FAR more to the story than what we've seen thus far. Vhaeraun is observant enough to know what Lolth was planning and hightail it out of there. Remember this too... The book is called "Sacrifice of the Widow" not "Omg Lolths team gets Pwnzored." Lolth's well aware of what she's losing; As the back cover says, she's clearing out room in the Demonweb Pits for her new aspects.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 06:05 PM	I only hope that Eilistraee continues to be the main manifestation :love: :drool: -Well, from what has been published so far, it is Eilistraee, only with Vhaeraun's mask.
Khaelieth 05-16-07, 06:12 PM	-Well, from what has been published so far, it is Eilistraee, only with Vhaeraun's mask. Thiefsess sstole our massk!
Lord_Steve 05-16-07, 06:19 PM	Halisstra is still probally killing off all the Vhaerun worshippers in the forest. QC Bah! Not all of the Dark Lord's followers are in that wretched forest....I'd like to see her try to go toe to toe with granddaddy shadow dragon and his ilk. Not to mention the many more followers spread throughout Toril and not all of them are Drow either. Pfffftt!!!!!!! Halistra aint got nothing.
Tyberian 05-16-07, 06:29 PM	What's the possibility Vhaeraun killed Eilistrae and is masquerading as her right this moment? Or perhaps she merely killed an avatar and he is the voice inside the maiden's sword trying to subvert her followers up close and personal with offers of power.
Lord_Steve 05-16-07, 06:42 PM	What's the possibility Vhaeraun killed Eilistrae and is masquerading as her right this moment? Or perhaps she merely killed an avatar and he is the voice inside the maiden's sword trying to subvert her followers up close and personal with offers of power. I'd say it's quite possible.
Alediran 05-16-07, 07:14 PM	It's unlikely that was what happened, remember that Corellon said to Vhaerar that the day he raised a finger against her sister would be tha last of his life.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 07:38 PM	What's the possibility Vhaeraun killed Eilistrae and is masquerading as her right this moment? Or perhaps she merely killed an avatar and he is the voice inside the maiden's sword trying to subvert her followers up close and personal with offers of power. It's unlikely that was what happened, remember that Corellon said to Vhaerar that the day he raised a finger against her sister would be tha last of his life. -Agreed. Also, if they "battled", Eilistraee would have had "home town advantage", as Vhaeraun did go to her realm on Arvandor, and not the other way around. That Vhaeraun traveled to Arvandor further reinforces the point that Eilistraee is most likely the one who is not dead.
Zandilar 05-16-07, 07:47 PM	Heya, I would be interested to see what effect Elistraee's death has on surface drow. Provided they don't just lose hope. A catastrophic shock like that would create the chance of interesting changes in people with backbone enough to survive it. Eilistraee represents the hope of the drow. If she dies... Demoralized is an inadequate word. (Fury, at least on my behalf, is about right.) I wonder what Eilistraee's allies would do? (As a refresher: The Seldarine, Mystra, Selune, and the Good deities of the Underdark races - there's a heck of a lot of god power right there. If her allies do something, and I would hope they would (Eilistraee and Mystra share a Chosen, for a start), I doubt she will die.)
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 09:47 PM	It is a family fight though.... I will second LK on the opinion that V is long from dead. I still think it's a Kiddie plan to teach Mom a lesson, at least in the FRCS.:)
Alediran 05-17-07, 09:30 AM	It is a family fight though.... I will second LK on the opinion that V is long from dead. I still think it's a Kiddie plan to teach Mom a lesson, at least in the FRCS.:) I hope, that would be awesome, too much victories for Lolth in too short time, she needs a big slap to balance things.
BrennonGoldeye 05-17-07, 11:20 AM	I agree, but there is still something in me(the Fey probably) that feels sad for Her. I bet that would tick Her off to no end. Oh well, I'm still hoping that Svel reappears, possibly through the actions of his Mom(as She exists now). That would be nifty.:D
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 09:08 AM	Narh, I reckon Vhaeraun is coming back. He lent his divinity to Eilistraae so she would have the power to whack mommy and then he gets it back afterwards. Do you reckon Eilistraae would have lent her divinity to Vhaeraun, the drow god of rogues? Not likely.
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 09:39 AM	Good point Khaelieth.:D
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 09:54 AM	Narh, I reckon Vhaeraun is coming back. He lent his divinity to Eilistraae so she would have the power to whack mommy and then he gets it back afterwards. Do you reckon Eilistraae would have lent her divinity to Vhaeraun, the drow god of rogues? Not likely. -Very interesting theory.
Zanan 05-18-07, 11:11 AM	Narh, I reckon Vhaeraun is coming back. He lent his divinity to Eilistraae so she would have the power to whack mommy and then he gets it back afterwards. Do you reckon Eilistraae would have lent her divinity to Vhaeraun, the drow god of rogues? Not likely. Matter of fact, I don't think either of these deities - given the enmity they have shown to one another over aeons - will lent or hand anything to the other one bar a swift death. Even if it goes against the Dark Mother.
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 11:15 AM	Well, it's just a hypothesis, not a theory!=) EDIT: And I believe only one is supposed to die (I'm fairly sure it's Selvetarm)? And I think Vhaeraun being absorbed by Eilist. is stretching it far too far.
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 11:36 AM	Matter of fact, I don't think either of these deities - given the enmity they have shown to one another over aeons - will lent or hand anything to the other one bar a swift death. Even if it goes against the Dark Mother. Hmm... Just the opinion I would expect from a spider kisser...:gah:
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 11:48 AM	Hmm... Just the opinion I would expect from a spider kisser...:gah: Zanan is a Kiaransaleean, I believe... Now you've done it.
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 12:01 PM	Zanan is a Kiaransaleean, I believe... Now you've done it. Oh crap. I knew it was wrong when I typed it. :bigeyes: Umm.. if anybody needs me I will on the Positive Plane for the forseeable future. :ghosted:
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 12:03 PM	Oh crap. I knew it was wrong when I typed it. :bigeyes: Umm.. if anybody needs me I will on the Positive Plane for the forseeable future. :ghosted: Not if she grabs your soul first!
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 12:06 PM	Not if she grabs your soul first! Shhhhhhh... :hides:
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 01:17 PM	Matter of fact, I don't think either of these deities - given the enmity they have shown to one another over aeons - will lent or hand anything to the other one bar a swift death. Even if it goes against the Dark Mother. -One never knows with Faerûn's deities. And, war does make interesting bedfellows. -Though they don't particularly like each other, I don't have trouble swallowing a temporary alliance between the two, especially since Lolth's..."Power Boost". Mind you, why either deity would go to the other one for help is a little strange... Oh crap. I knew it was wrong when I typed it. :bigeyes: Umm.. if anybody needs me I will on the Positive Plane for the forseeable future. :ghosted: -You've got to stop getting yourself in trouble like this...The Plane Shift scroll is in the closet.
Alediran 05-18-07, 02:26 PM	-You've got to stop getting yourself in trouble like this...The Plane Shift scroll is in the closet. Are you refering to the scroll in the golden case? If it is, then I'll have to appologise, because I inscribed it on my Spellbook a night I was under the effects of a confusion spell.
Zanan 05-18-07, 03:38 PM	Shhhhhhh... :hides: Ever tried to translate the first line of my sig?* :smirk: Us Kiaransaleens are well known Planescapers. Maybe I just send a squad of Banshee Knights over there to hurry you about ... for a time. *(If not, maybe you have a look in the good old Tome & Blood and check the first line of the True Necromancer PrC.)
Zandilar 05-18-07, 08:21 PM	Heya, Ever tried to translate the first line of my sig?* :smirk: Us Kiaransaleens are well known Planescapers. Maybe I just send a squad of Banshee Knights over there to hurry you about ... for a time. *(If not, maybe you have a look in the good old Tome & Blood and check the first line of the True Necromancer PrC.) "Ust, usstan elgg dos" Translation: First, I (myself, this one) kill (destroy, slay) you? ;) Drowic Translator (http://www.grey-company.org/Maerdyn/resources/translator/index.cgi) xal l' dosman ssussun d'lil drathir dumo dos
GothicDan 05-18-07, 08:25 PM	Hm. I suppose it's not an inflected language, then. ;)
Zandilar 05-18-07, 08:35 PM	Heya, Hm. I suppose it's not an inflected language, then. ;) It's a typical, made up piecemeal language. It lacks true thought behind it, and as a result, doesn't have a unique grammar of its own. Basically, it's "change English words into jumbled up letters"... Some people (the one that comes to mind immediately for me is Jashan (http://www.jashan.net/sites/conlangs/drow/index.shtml)) have tried to make more sense of it, but pretty much the House Maerdyn translator translates on a word for word basis.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 08:47 PM	I guess not everyone can be Tolkien, eh? Though I'd love to see all of Ed's notes on linguistics in the Realms, sometime...
Zandilar 05-18-07, 09:59 PM	Heya, I guess not everyone can be Tolkien, eh? If I'm not mistaken, Tolkien was a linguist. :) The drowic language started off with people making up words and/or sayings - they weren't thinking of making an entire language... they didn't set out deliberately to do it - it just grew... Unfortunately, linguists didn't get their hands on it early enough to build more depth into the language. Languages aren't that easy to make up from scratch, though... I've had a stab at it myself for my old homebrewed world, and I really only worked on it more when I started to write stories set there. I still haven't completed the task, and I've been working on it on and off for 15 years or so now. Though I'd love to see all of Ed's notes on linguistics in the Realms, sometime... That would be quite interesting. Ed's the sort of person who probably would have put a lot of thought into it, I think.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 10:00 PM	Languages aren't that easy to make up from scratch, though... I've had a stab at it myself for my old homebrewed world, and I really only worked on it more when I started to write stories set there. I still haven't completed the task, and I've been working on it on and off for 15 years or so now. If I ever settle on a homebrew world I like, I'll work on language, more. Though even with a decent founding in Latin, I still don't feel nearly like I'd know enough to create a language, yet. I'd want to pick up German and Greek, first, at least. Sanskrit and some form of old Chinese and Middle Eastern (perhaps Iranian) would also be some things I'd consider 'corner stones' of having a proper linguistic background.
Zandilar 05-18-07, 10:08 PM	Heya, If I ever settle on a homebrew world I like, I'll work on language, more. Though even with a decent founding in Latin, I still don't feel nearly like I'd know enough to create a language, yet. I'd want to pick up German and Greek, first, at least. Sanskrit and some form of old Chinese and Middle Eastern (perhaps Iranian) would also be some things I'd consider 'corner stones' of having a proper linguistic background. You might want to look at constructed languages too... Tolkien's elven language, of course... Marc Okrand's Klingon... Esperanto, Ido... hmm... and others that I'm sure are out there. :) I used to be quite fluent in Klingon... not anymore. *sigh*
GothicDan 05-18-07, 10:09 PM	Do you mind if I call you a geek? ;)
Zandilar 05-18-07, 10:10 PM	Heya, Do you mind if I call you a geek? ;) Not at all! It's a badge I wear with pride. :D :cool:
GothicDan 05-18-07, 10:12 PM	Me, too! *Proud.*
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:13 PM	I am proud to be a geek, I just don't reveal it, I never tell anyone at school I play D&D except for a few close friends. Self-preservation purposes.;)
GothicDan 05-18-07, 10:15 PM	My college has about 50 roleplayers in it. I'm totally safe, there.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:18 PM	My college has about 50 roleplayers in it. I'm totally safe, there. which college you go to?
Zandilar 05-18-07, 10:21 PM	Heya, I'm free, free freeeeeeeee of school, colleage, university... But even when I was there, I didn't hide my geekiness. (And trust me, in an all girls High School - that definitely made me the class loner and nerd.) Then the Uni I went to had an RP club - SFGA (Science Fiction and Games Association). They met every Friday to play... Ah, those were the days...
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:23 PM	Heya, I'm free, free freeeeeeeee of school, colleage, university... But even when I was there, I didn't hide my geekiness. (And trust me, in an all girls High School - that definitely made me the class loner and nerd.) Then the Uni I went to had an RP club - SFGA (Science Fiction and Games Association). They met every Friday to play... Ah, those were the days... Hmm, does cornell have one? Because that is the college im planning to attend. I can't bear to be the public class nerd. Though people think I'm a video game geek, D&D is just taking it a little too far in my school...
Zandilar 05-18-07, 10:30 PM	Heya, Hmm, does cornell have one? Because that is the college im planning to attend. I went to RMIT University (Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology), which is, of course, in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. :) I don't know about US universities/colleges. :) I can't bear to be the public class nerd. Though people think I'm a video game geek, D&D is just taking it a little too far in my school... Well, I went to a Catholic Girls High School back in the '80s... I was into both computers and role playing games... And I didn't hide either hobby... No wonder I'm such a screwed up mess now. :P Thank the gods I didn't come out until well after High School! I can only imagine how bad it would have been if that had become known! Still, I know I wouldn't have hid it... I guess I'm some kind of masochist.
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 10:30 PM	Which is why Khaelieth and his stick stay on her good side, unless we want to turn into mindless zombies with the intelligence of an orc.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:38 PM	Heya, I went to RMIT University (Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology), which is, of course, in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. :) I don't know about US universities/colleges. :) Well, I went to a Catholic Girls High School back in the '80s... I was into both computers and role playing games... And I didn't hide either hobby... No wonder I'm such a screwed up mess now. :P Thank the gods I didn't come out until well after High School! I can only imagine how bad it would have been if that had become known! Still, I know I wouldn't have hid it... I guess I'm some kind of masochist. It is a real pain having to hide my D&D books when people come to my house. I wonder if I should open up?
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 12:00 AM	Though I'd love to see all of Ed's notes on linguistics in the Realms, sometime... -Ed mentioned something about this in one of the rare answers I was able to elict from him a while back, when I asked about traditional Elven ballads. When I asked about lyrics, he said something along the lines of, "Eventually, we stopped using the Elven language, up to a point, because it was very much based off of Tolkien's Quenya/Sindarin, and WotC/TSR didn't want to get into any copyright issues concerning it." -It's in his '06 replies. April, I think.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 12:03 AM	I wonder, though, if he had any personal notes on it that differed from Quenya/Sindarin. HA! Your questions aren't ignored! You're just impatient!
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 12:18 AM	I wonder, though, if he had any personal notes on it that differed from Quenya/Sindarin. -That, I don't know. HA! Your questions aren't ignored! You're just impatient! -Like I said in my first sentence, this was one of the rare answers I was able to elicit. It was one of two that were answered, out of a total of about eight or nine that I asked over the span of all of last year, and part of this year. The other one that I had answered had to do with the Elven diet.
Zandilar 05-19-07, 02:28 AM	Heya, It is a real pain having to hide my D&D books when people come to my house. I wonder if I should open up? You should. :) I mean, honestly... what are you afraid of exactly?
faellamos 05-19-07, 09:43 AM	Heya, You should. :) I mean, honestly... what are you afraid of exactly? my sentiments exactly. i mean no offense or nething but nothing is more contemptible imo than ppl who are afraid/embarrassed to admit they like FR or harry potter or stargate or something similarly nerdy. but to GET BACK TO THE TOPIC i just finished the book this morning and i seem to remember that in the epilogue, Eillistraee, when she was considering her next move on the sava board, was contemplating a DEVIOUS new attack against Lolth, something she wouldn't see coming. This makes me tend to believe that Vhaeraun really is dead, that Eillistraee consumed him, and this new devious streak that Eillistraee's showing (she didnt really have it b4...) is a direct result of that; consuming Vhaeraun imbued her with his particular strengths. i predict that while her alignment will remain the same, his influence will make her a far more cunning, devious and subtle deity than she was, which can only make her stronger. Maybe this whole thing is a plot by wotc to pump up Eil's divine rating as fast as they possibly can b4 she and lolth square off in the third book, so that the battle will be on more or less equal terms and not be just a case of lolth flicking Eillistraee away like a pesky fly. I thought vhaeraun was one of the coolest FR gods (specially after the prologue of WOTSQ book 6), but i do still think it was a cool and totally unforeseen twist. Selvetarm i couldnt really care less about though.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 10:08 AM	It is a real pain having to hide my D&D books when people come to my house. I wonder if I should open up? -Tell 'em that if they have any problems to come and take it up with me...;)
XHereticX 05-19-07, 10:25 AM	Thanks for the support guys. But comparing D&D with Harry Potter isn't really appropriate. Things like HP and Star Trek people are used to and generally accept, but D&D kind of has a reputation of its own. On the other hand, a good deal of my friends already know I play D&D anyway, so it dosen't really matter. Heck, some of them are in my group.
faellamos 05-19-07, 11:08 AM	Thanks for the support guys. But comparing D&D with Harry Potter isn't really appropriate. Things like HP and Star Trek people are used to and generally accept, but D&D kind of has a reputation of its own. On the other hand, a good deal of my friends already know I play D&D anyway, so it dosen't really matter. Heck, some of them are in my group. i dont think star wars is ne more accepted than d&d. in fact if u told ppl u were a trekkie ud probably get a worse reaction than if u told them u played d&d
Steelwind 05-19-07, 12:01 PM	i dont think star wars is ne more accepted than d&d. in fact if u told ppl u were a trekkie ud probably get a worse reaction than if u told them u played d&d Im not sure about that, I think star wars is far more "mainstream" than D&D. To be honest D&D does kinda have a negative stigma attached to it. And while I dont hide the fact that I play, its not information I openly share either.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 01:00 PM	Im not sure about that, I think star wars is far more "mainstream" than D&D. -Definitley. To be honest D&D does kinda have a negative stigma attached to it. -Depends where you are, really. In the "Bible Belt", it certainly has some negative connotations. In other places, D&D is just as neutral as, say, an RPG video game. Same thing, different medium. And while I dont hide the fact that I play, its not information I openly share either. -It's just like anything else. If you rub everyone else's nose in it, they'll eventually come to dislike it, and you.
Lord_Steve 05-19-07, 01:33 PM	Does anyone actually worship Selvetarm though? From what I see, he's Lolth's bodyguard, her champion.....Lolth is a tyranical beeeeatch who want everyone to worship her and nobody else......So would worshippers of Selvetarm gain spells and answers to their prayers? Considering that Lolth wouldnt be happy about him stealing her worshippers andmight see it as rebellion?.....Hmmmmm....I guess we can expect him to be dead sometime soon too eh? lol
Lord_Steve 05-19-07, 01:34 PM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;12439361 -Depends where you are, really. In the "Bible Belt", it certainly has some negative connotations. In other places, D&D is just as neutral as, say, an RPG video game. Same thing, different medium. [/QUOTE] Aint nothing, try being a Pagan in a small Southern Texas town of 800 people....Man, I feared for my life the whol 6 months I was there *shudders*
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 01:41 PM	Does anyone actually worship Selvetarm though? -Yes. Lolth allows a Church of Selvetarm to exist, with her Priestess' moderating it. A few "heretics" also began to worship him in his own right after the Time of Troubles. So would worshippers of Selvetarm gain spells and answers to their prayers? -Yes, Selvetarm would answer them. Hmmmmm....I guess we can expect him to be dead sometime soon too eh? lol -Yes, he is already dead. Aint nothing, try being a Pagan in a small Southern Texas town of 800 people....Man, I feared for my life the whol 6 months I was there *shudders* -Thinking of living in a place with a total of 800 residents makes me shudder...
Steelwind 05-19-07, 01:46 PM	Aint nothing, try being a Pagan in a small Southern Texas town of 800 people....Man, I feared for my life the whol 6 months I was there *shudders* Well when you go to the friday night high school football game and scream "Satan Rules" when they score a touchdown, honestly what do you really expect. :devil:
Lord_Steve 05-19-07, 01:53 PM	Well when you go to the friday night high school football game and scream "Satan Rules" when they score a touchdown, honestly what do you really expect. :devil: Technically Pagans dont worship Satan nor do they acknowledge him/her/it to even exist.....though you do have the few black sheep....but I wont get into it...lol
Steelwind 05-19-07, 01:57 PM	I know man, I was just joshing ya. ;)
Lord_Steve 05-19-07, 02:00 PM	I know man, I was just joshing ya. ;) Figured as much *laughs*
XHereticX 05-19-07, 08:44 PM	Yeah, D&D kind of has a reputation, not only for being nerdy but also for being "satan's game." Like my friend said when I told him I play D&D, "Wow, there is no bigger way to say "im a nerd" more than playing D&D."
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 10:12 PM	Like my friend said when I told him I play D&D, "Wow, there is no bigger way to say "im a nerd" more than playing D&D." -You should've beaten the crap out of him at this point. Talk about role reversal. :P
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:34 PM	-You should've beaten the crap out of him at this point. Talk about role reversal. :P Karsus, you have the best ideas ever:D
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:38 PM	-One does not wrest control of a deity's divine spark with bad ideas... -I can teach you more, if you are willing to learn...:emp:
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:42 PM	-One does not wrest control of a deity's divine spark with bad ideas... -I can teach you more, if you are willing to learn...:emp: Wow, with that kind of attitude, you should spark a nerd uprising or something :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:. My legions are at ur command emperor.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:46 PM	-Excellent. Swear allegiance to me, become a Hand of Karsus*, and soon we shall have our revenge... *Elite Order of posters who serve Karsus in various ways, none of which have anything to do with sex.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:48 PM	-Excellent. Swear allegiance to me, become a Hand of Karsus, and soon we shall have our revenge... That would be great and all, but I am already sworn to the Lord of the Ninth and I really don't wanna incur his wrath:( Just what sort of revenge are you planning for the preps anyway?:censored: :lop: :coolcthul :88E:
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:52 PM	That would be great and all, but I am already sworn to the Lord of the Ninth and I really don't wanna incur his wrath:( -Pfft. Asmodeus has nothing on me. Just ask anyone here! :cool: Just what sort of revenge are you planning for the preps anyway?:censored: :lop: :coolcthul :88E: -Well, I'm not really looking for revenge as much as I am complete multispheric domination. If you want, I could whip up a little something for 'em.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:53 PM	Ok, I join. I can be sworn to 2 forces of dread at once. I really have nothing against them, I just wanna see nerds at the top for once
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:56 PM	Ok, I join. I can be sworn to 2 forces of dread at once. -Excellent. -Rise, Lord XHereticX...:emp: -Whenever he gets here, Brennon should fill you in on the latest assignment. Last time I saw him, he was running from the wrath of Zanan. He called her a Spider-Kisser...:rolleyes:
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:58 PM	-Excellent. -Rise, Lord XHereticX...:emp: -Whenever he gets here, Brennon should fill you in on the latest assignment. Last time I saw him, he was running from the wrath of Zanan. He called her a Spider-Kisser...:rolleyes: "is suddenly surrounded by infernal flames and cackles in laughter"- yesssss, now I will bring a new age of perdition to those witless earthlings:emp:
BrennonGoldeye 05-20-07, 10:08 AM	"is suddenly surrounded by infernal flames and cackles in laughter"- yesssss, now I will bring a new age of perdition to those witless earthlings:emp: ..<phases in as an ambient gold smoke>.. Excellent, well met and welcome to the organization. Here, hold this..<hands XHereticX an small golden bell>..Consider this you welcome party..<phases out, but the golden haze clings to the bell, which is lightly chiming at a increasing speed>.. ..<distant voice come from the bell>.. I would put up some spell protections up, the dark lady that owned that bell can hear it chime...
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:19 PM	..<phases in as an ambient gold smoke>.. Excellent, well met and welcome to the organization. Here, hold this..<hands XHereticX an small golden bell>..Consider this you welcome party..<phases out, but the golden haze clings to the bell, which is lightly chiming at a increasing speed>.. ..<distant voice come from the bell>.. I would put up some spell protections up, the dark lady that owned that bell can hear it chime... Don't worry Brennon, I will send an army of devils to the Demonweb pits to help you with Zanan and those nasty drow.
Zanan 05-20-07, 06:43 PM	Don't worry Brennon, I will send an army of devils to the Demonweb pits to help you with Zanan and those nasty drow. Matter of factly, I have a good understanding with devils ... at least some of them.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 06:53 PM	Matter of factly, I have a good understanding with devils ... at least some of them. Bah, I am the Chosen of Asmodeus and Karsus, you hold no power over me!
Razz 05-20-07, 09:57 PM	That's it. It's official. I am no longer supporting Forgotten Realms novels. I refuse to read any more of them until they quit writing these novels on such huge catastrophes. Leave those to the players of the game, not the authors. And, besides, at this rate Forgotten Realms novels will be no different than Dragonlance novels. The Spellfire series was good. It was self-contained. The Archwizards trilogy was good, it brought a huge change but it ADDED, not took away from the Realms. The Drizzt Novels are self-contained, mostly. The Time of Troubles should be the only huge major catastrophe that has happened in the Realms for a long time. Why does every Realms novel now have to have some dire, cataclysmic event? It's getting ridiculous and it's ruining my Realms campaign. Henceforth, I am no longer reading anymore Realms novels. It sucks, too, because I really like some of the authors writing.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 10:38 PM	Razz, did you just call the Archwizards novels good? *Boggle.*
Meldread 05-21-07, 03:14 AM	Razz- That's long been my stance. I refuse to read the novels, even though I'm sure some of them are really great stories, simply because I hate the fact that they are incorporated into the game world. What goes on in novels does not necessarily translate well into a D&D Game. I wish the Forgotten Realm's would take a look at Eberron and realize that they made the right choice not to canonize things like that, and to hold the storyline at a constant place in time. Nothing makes me angry more than spending money on a book detailing a region of the world, only to have it outdated shortly thereafter. I will always be, until my dying breath, an advocate for FR Novels to not be canonized. I'm in support of novels written for the FR - I think that's great. I love people who love to read them. I just don't think it's healthy to the setting to keep incorporating them. I also believe that, by letting Authors do their own thing, they have a huge free artistic license just like we do as DM's and players. Change whatever you want. It won't hurt the setting - your primary job is to tell a good story, not be limited by how it impacts the game. Personally, I think it's good for everyone and I will never understand the logic behind the choice to canonize them.
Zireael 05-21-07, 07:18 AM	I agree. Never canonize the novels!!! We have the law to make Realms ours and to change them and not to stick to every word being written in the novels!
Razz 05-21-07, 08:07 AM	I wish the Forgotten Realm's would take a look at Eberron and realize that they made the right choice not to canonize things like that, and to hold the storyline at a constant place in time. Nothing makes me angry more than spending money on a book detailing a region of the world, only to have it outdated shortly thereafter. I never knew Eberron's novels were not canon. That's really neat. If only FR did that. I don't mind a few novels here or there being canon for a game world, but it's something that should not be done so lightly. I also don't mind novel tie-ins, like the novel about the arrival of the Shadovar.
Razz 05-21-07, 08:10 AM	Razz, did you just call the Archwizards novels good? *Boggle.* Good as in it didn't take away from the Realms or completely alter anything in it. It enhanced it. It simply introduced a new threat, but what you, as a DM, do with that threat is entirely up to you. The novel didn't come in and have the Shadovar completely submit half of Faerun under their control in one triology, for example. (well, they tried to melt the High Ice and almost succeeded and caused contintental weather changes, but I don't think an El Nino effect on the Realms would ruin anyone's game).
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 09:51 AM	Razz, did you just call the Archwizards novels good? *Boggle.* -Hey, the premise behind the trilogy was good. The execution just didn't work out that great. -And, as for not canonizing novels...Well, that's just silly...:nonono:
Alediran 05-21-07, 09:57 AM	-Well, I'm not really looking for revenge as much as I am complete multispheric domination. If you want, I could whip up a little something for 'em. Will it give us time to cultivate our minds without having to worry about a job?
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 09:59 AM	Will it give us time to cultivate our minds without having to worry about a job? -Only for you, my friend. Only for you. :)
The Ubbergeek 05-21-07, 12:19 PM	I disagree, especially since many are by your God-Gygax... ahem, greenwood. Novels should be canon, like in shadowrun, as long the respect the canon.
Khaelieth 05-21-07, 01:01 PM	I reckon some should be canon, tbh.
Alediran 05-21-07, 01:29 PM	-Only for you, my friend. Only for you. :) If you add to that the power for me to chose others who will get this benefit then I'll sign right away.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:05 PM	I think novels should be canon. I would never buy an FR novel and read if it wasn't canon. It would just feel fake otherwise, like "This is an FR novel... Sort of. Lawlz. JK!!!1"
Meldread 05-21-07, 03:39 PM	It really boggles my mind how anyone can think that canonizing the FR novels is a good thing for the setting. It's been nothing but complete and utter poison. Let's face it D&D and Novels are not the same thing, they are not compatible in the same way, and what makes a great novel may ruin a campaign setting. How many RSE's does Faerun need in a single year to convince people otherwise? Maybe two or three more events like the Time of Troubles, the last one only was a month or so in length, maybe a few more of those will change some minds. Further back in the thread here people were complaining and threatening to stop purchasing all Realm's related products if this particular author killed off most of the other deities in the Drow Pantheon. It makes me angry that books that I have purchased for the Realm's become outdated due to novels. It makes me wonder why I even bother at all, not to mention the absurdity of some of the stories and the introduction of an endless string of high level NPC's. I don't have a problem with Wizard's publishing supplements for novels that allow DM's who are interested in canonizing what happens in them into their version of the Realm's... I just resent having it forced down my throat. It should be completely optional. Sorry, rant off!
Razz 05-21-07, 04:27 PM	It really boggles my mind how anyone can think that canonizing the FR novels is a good thing for the setting. <snip> Totally agree. I don't mind SOME novels being canon, as long as it is done sparingly...and I mean very sparingly. At this point I am just going to protest by not purchasing any more Realms novels, I'll just buy the game products.
Razz 05-21-07, 04:28 PM	Novels should be canon, like in shadowrun, as long the respect the canon. That's the problem with the FR authors, at this point I really don't think any of them respect the canon in FR or respect the gamers by what they publish. FR was a game first and a game it should stay. Writing novels about it should be a privilege and it shouldn't be abused. You'll lose more gamers if you start changing things around too often and too much, thus losing your funding to write those very novels. Let's face it, the huge majority of FR readers are actually D&D players. You mess with FR with the novels too much and you'll either lose readers, lose gamers...or even lose both.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:31 PM	That's the problem with the FR authors, at this point I really don't think any of them respect the canon in FR or respect the gamers by what they publish. ... ANY of them? That's a little hard to swallow. For instance, Elaine researching FORWARD in her novel just to figure out what Star Elves were, so she could try to remain canon even preemptively? That's love. Hence, the Divine Trio FR Novelist thread. Me and Old Sage both agree it'd be Ed, Elaine, and Steven. :) I don't think cutting off a limb is necessary when you could just use antibiotics to cure the disease.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:33 PM	I don't have a problem with Wizard's publishing supplements for novels that allow DM's who are interested in canonizing what happens in them into their version of the Realm's... I just resent having it forced down my throat. It should be completely optional. It IS completely optional. EVERYTHING in FR is, including sourcebooks. I understand why people don't like a lot of the novels. I've probably read less of them than just about anyone on these boards. I don't like the majority of authors. That's why you ignore them. Just like a lot of us ignore the Time of Troubles. The sourcebooks alone, ESPECIALLY the 3E ones, do absolutely nothing to bring the Realms to life. They don't give an idea of how people talk, how X commoner would react to Y noble in a given situation, how the shadowy manipulations of the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim actually function. Seriously, how could anyone want to read novels, especially bad ones, without somehow feeling like you GAINED something from them? (In this case, knowledge of canon.)
Razz 05-21-07, 04:35 PM	... ANY of them? That's a little hard to swallow. For instance, Elaine researching FORWARD in her novel just to figure out what Star Elves were, so she could try to remain canon even preemptively? That's love. Hence, the Divine Trio FR Novelist thread. Me and Old Sage both agree it'd be Ed, Elaine, and Steven. :) I don't think cutting off a limb is necessary when you could just use antibiotics to cure the disease. Ok, I've exaggerated when I said ANY of them, I'll rephrase that. Most of them. The 3 you mentioned I agree are good at what they write, and I like what Ed writes.
Razz 05-21-07, 04:38 PM	It IS completely optional. EVERYTHING in FR is, including sourcebooks. I understand why people don't like a lot of the novels. I've probably read less of them than just about anyone on these boards. I don't like the majority of authors. That's why you ignore them. Just like a lot of us ignore the Time of Troubles. The sourcebooks alone, ESPECIALLY the 3E ones, do absolutely nothing to bring the Realms to life. They don't give an idea of how people talk, how X commoner would react to Y noble in a given situation, how the shadowy manipulations of the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim actually function. Seriously, how could anyone want to read novels, especially bad ones, without somehow feeling like you GAINED something from them? (In this case, knowledge of canon.) I have read many FR novels that have enhanced my FR games, true. I am saying that lately these novels aren't doing that anymore, they're starting to take away what I recently read about and liked about it. The last 5 sets of novels I've either read entirely, or just read about, have drastically altered FR on such a wide scale.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:38 PM	Okay, that's all I wanted. ;) I otherwise agree with you. Poo on RSE's, unless they're done in a way that the PCs would have little actual roles in helping to carry out. For instance, Blackstaff's events.. PCs would have only played a side role to the main events of that novel. It was largely a summation of Blackstaff's long term plans; it was about him, as a character, his scruples, strengths, and failings, and his dedication and his desire for rest. PCs playing it as an 'adventure' would have done much to marginalize the awesome character that the Blackstaff was.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:40 PM	I have read many FR novels that have enhanced my FR games, true. I am saying that lately these novels aren't doing that anymore, they're starting to take away what I recently read about and liked about it. The last 5 sets of novels I've either read entirely, or just read about, have drastically altered FR on such a wide scale. As Ed once said, "Stop destroying my world, I'm not done building it yet!" (Or something like that.) Some people - the same ones that routinely complain about the Chosen of Mystra, Mystra, and supposed illogical inconsistencies (who put no thought into how the Realms ACTUALLY works) - would claim that there's been no major changes in status quo throughout ANY of the novels. It seems that WotC is largely trying to cater to that group, for some reason I can't fathom.
Alediran 05-21-07, 04:49 PM	As Ed once said, "Stop destroying my world, I'm not done building it yet!" (Or something like that.) Some people - the same ones that routinely complain about the Chosen of Mystra, Mystra, and supposed illogical inconsistencies (who put no thought into how the Realms ACTUALLY works) - would claim that there's been no major changes in status quo throughout ANY of the novels. It seems that WotC is largely trying to cater to that group, for some reason I can't fathom. This happens in every aspect of life (television series, fashion, etc), the unwashed masses are the ones who must be pleased, doesn't matter if that alienates the minoritys.
Meldread 05-21-07, 05:30 PM	Seriously, how could anyone want to read novels, especially bad ones, without somehow feeling like you GAINED something from them? (In this case, knowledge of canon.) This is exactly my point. If you have to prop up an entire novel based upon the fact that its going to be canonized, and thus people will buy it for that purpose... well I just pity the tree that had to die so that thing could live. Seriously, if it is a bad novel why in the world would you want it written into cannon? You should read novels because you enjoy the plot and characters. You should play D&D because you enjoy the game. The two do not mix very well. It IS completely optional. EVERYTHING in FR is, including sourcebooks. No, it isn't optional. New source books that come out will reflect the changes that took place in those novels. For example, if Mysteries of the Moonsea were to be printed today pages 45 through 84 would basically be altered because of the changes with Hillsfar. Anything related to Sembia would be changed. I don't want it changed. I hate what happened in those novels and I haven't even read them. It may have made a good story, but it completely ruined an entire swath of the Realm's. And it isn't just there that this has happened to... it's all over the map. What I want from Wizards of the Coast are more sourcebooks for the Forgotten Realm's. I want what is in those books to remain constant. I don't want the Forgotten Realm's filled with crappy uber NPC's and retarded half-baked story-arcs. It's not optional because it's changing cannon. I play in a pre-created setting like the Forgotten Realm's because of the depth placed into it. However, I also pay for those books and the setting because I don't want to have to do all the work to make my own. Forcing me to purchase a book to learn more about the setting, and then forcing me on top of it all to go behind the authors and basically do a de-canonization effort... well that just undermines the whole point of using a pre-generated campaign setting. I hate the Eberron Setting (matter of taste and preference), but their design philosophy was spot on when it came to setting it up. They looked at settings like FR and realized what was wrong, and said "We're not going to do that." It's just a pity that the same design philosophy isn't put to use here.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:41 PM	No, it isn't optional. Sorry, Meldread. Not going to argue this with you, because of this. Everything in life is optional. No one's controlling your mind. No one says you MUST stick to canon. Again, I wouldnt use 95% of what happens in the novels, and I hardly think I'm losing anything integral to the setting by doing so. And I still wouldn't call for the novels to be de-canonized. Sorry.
Byteman 05-21-07, 05:49 PM	Glad I don't stick to Canon. I've got too many plans for the drow.
Meldread 05-21-07, 06:12 PM	Of course no one forces you to stick to cannon. (And for the record: I don't.) It just creates more work, which undermines the entire purpose of using an already pre-packaged setting. After all, what's the point of buying more regional sourcebooks (something I would love to see) if I'm going to have to ignore, change or drastically modify anywhere between 60-80% of what is in them? I'd be better off just creating my own setting drawing in elements of FR that I like and disregarding the rest. Of course, no one even brings up how it also harms the authors who write FR novels. Despite the insane near endless RSE's (I'm shocked the people of Faerun aren't talking about being in the "end times" with all the RSE's going on) the fact that their work will be canonized puts a strict limit on their artistic license. I would like to see those who write for FR make good stories. So when I sit down to read their book, I will enjoy it for what it is: a story in a setting that I happen to enjoy. I may draw ideas or inspiration from that story, but outside of that it has little to no effect on the setting as a whole. Kill off all the gods if you want. Reshape the world. I don't really care. I just don't want it to change what is already there.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 06:19 PM	Again, I do totally agree with the amount of RSE's being too much. However, that's something the Novels Department could deal with, without having to de-canonize novels. Once more, you don't kill the victim because he has a cold.
Krash 05-21-07, 07:11 PM	Two things: After the first gaming session wraps up in anyone's new FR campaign, they've broken with "canon". The current crop of writers in the FR firmament are as dedicated to realmslore and "what has gone before" as any writers in the history of FR fiction. Likely more so in fact. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 08:17 PM	The current crop of writers in the FR firmament are as dedicated to realmslore and "what has gone before" as any writers in the history of FR fiction. Likely more so in fact. -Ehhh... -While I want to disagree, I will say that "now" is not "then". Today's FR authors write in a different time, under different management, for a different audience. Though, I do believe that the authors of "yesteryear" were more concerned about internal consistency. That's not to say, however, that many of the authors today are not.
dsheff 05-21-07, 09:17 PM	Ultimately, I guess I could say I agree with both sides. A lot of the things I've read that were by Greenwood made big changes to the series, but Greenwood created it. Elaine Cunningham's characters have grand adventures without shaking the Realms to its foundations... If anyone remembers the Harpers series (of which Elfshadow and Elfsong were originally part) none of those did anything crazy to the overall setup of Faerun. Perhaps the authors are getting too big for their britches. And then again, when you're writing for a publisher like WOTC, it sounds like sometimes they dictate the basic plot outline, and you just fill in the specifics. "In this book, we want to wipe out three of the Drow deities...make it happen..." I could be wrong there.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 09:35 PM	The current crop of writers in the FR firmament are as dedicated to realmslore and "what has gone before" as any writers in the history of FR fiction. Likely more so in fact. Dedication does not necessarily equate to success, however. I'm sorry to say that I HAVE tried to read the newer stuff, and really do not like it. And I wasn't even very interested in FR novels in general for very long... The Return of the Archwizards Trilogy was only the second trilogy I've ever read, with the first being the Avatar Criss (gah). And I read both of them I ever read anything written by Greenwood, and only after one novel of Elaine's (Evermeet). It just feels different, for me, and there's no chance for that being nostalgic in my case. Nor in LK's, I might add.
Meldread 05-22-07, 07:16 AM	Again, I do totally agree with the amount of RSE's being too much. However, that's something the Novels Department could deal with, without having to de-canonize novels. I'm not suggesting that Wizard's should go and de-canonize every novel. Some should probably be wiped from cannon, simply because they are so grotesquely poisonous to the setting... but I am not even suggesting that. I would like to see Wizard's say, "Okay look guys. After this series that is it. No more novels will be written into cannon. Instead, after a novel is published we are going to begin releasing cheap web supplements in .pdf format. These supplements will be specific to those books, detailing the changes made as well as stating characters in those books. This way if you want the events in that book to have taken place, then you can purchase this supplement and place it into your version of the game." Outside of that, the time line will be locked at a specific date. Then a focus on fleshing out the setting should take place with the release of more regional sourcebooks among other books that aid in giving the setting depth. This way someone can have the best of both worlds. You can have what happens in Ed's books in your game, if you want all you have to do is buy the supplement. If you do not want what happened in his book in your game, then you can simply ignore it. There will be no extra work on your part in having to go around crazy events that make you cringe when new sourcebooks come out. However, if you like those crazy events you can include them in your game through the supplements, also with no extra work involved. Ideally Wizards will make more money this way and everyone can be happy. Setting continuity can be kept as well as having its integrity preserved. Everyone gets the best of both worlds and hopefully all parties are equally happy with the outcome.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 09:15 PM	That's a little more reasonable. Though, I'd like to keep non-RSE's canon. I really do like to think that the deeds of the Knights of Myth Drannor DID happen in the canon Realms, y'know?
Zandilar 05-22-07, 09:19 PM	Heya, I'm not suggesting that Wizard's should go and de-canonize every novel. Some should probably be wiped from cannon, simply because they are so grotesquely poisonous to the setting... but I am not even suggesting that. I would like to see Wizard's say, "Okay look guys. After this series that is it. No more novels will be written into cannon. Instead, after a novel is published we are going to begin releasing cheap web supplements in .pdf format. These supplements will be specific to those books, detailing the changes made as well as stating characters in those books. This way if you want the events in that book to have taken place, then you can purchase this supplement and place it into your version of the game." Oh that's a pretty cool idea! They could even include the PDF with the novel (via a code, I suppose, that you could enter online then download it) - kind of as a bonus for buying the novel. The DM would be under no obligation to use the PDF in his or her game, but it would be there and available if they wanted it!
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 10:57 PM	They could even include the PDF with the novel (via a code, I suppose, that you could enter online then download it) - kind of as a bonus for buying the novel. -That is a pretty neat idea. Could include things like new spells, NPC stats, Feats, Items, and so on. Forget doing something like that after "decanonizing" novels- do it now! :)
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:00 PM	LK! Quit demanding crunch! *So disappointed, between this and the DotU thread!*
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:05 PM	LK! Quit demanding crunch! -There's nothing wrong with wanting new spells, items and NPCs. Though not Realmsian in nature, I do DM (though, lately not so much), and new items, spells, and so on are always welcome. -Anyway, what kind of lore could be placed into a PDF that a person could access from buying a novel? Why not just put whatever could be included in the actual novel, and call it a day. Well, as long as it pertains to the novel, anyway. -And, I never said I didn't want any lore or anything. I didn't mention it at all, actually, but that doesn't imply that I would be against such a thing. -I'm sorry. I took a few Benedryl (Sp?), and the effects are just starting to hit me. Oh, it's a very nice feeling, but it makes thinking...so...hard...;) (And the fact that the playlist I am listening to consists totally of CSNY and Dylan doesn't help too much, either...)
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:08 PM	I actually wouldn't mind spells and items. Everything else, poo. A few stat lines (NO full stats, please) for NPCs would be cool. CSNY?
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:15 PM	I actually wouldn't mind spells and items. Everything else, poo. A few stat lines (NO full stats, please) for NPCs would be cool. -Alright, so then we're in agreement. :) CSNY? -Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:18 PM	Your music is so not conducive to making Dan happy. *Listens to some more Nightwish and Apocalyptica.*
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:25 PM	-Who? -I, generally, don't listen to artists who haven't had some sort of impact on society, in general. Thus, my playlists are filled with Beatles, Zeppelin, Hendrix, Dylan, and all other sorts of "social rebels". -That isn't to say, however, that I don't like a good, modern rock song, the occasional rap or the occasional dance/spanish dance music every now and then.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 12:34 AM	I'm almost the opposite. I dislike music that's overly social or political. Often times I feel it detracts from the actual art of music (at least, the notes and the vocals, lyrics aside). I usually actually forget lyrics altogether, unless they are especially appropriate to certain parts of my own life. It seems that Northern European metal bands focus more on philosophies, history, religion, etc. in their topics.
Meldread 05-23-07, 02:31 AM	Oh that's a pretty cool idea! They could even include the PDF with the novel (via a code, I suppose, that you could enter online then download it) - kind of as a bonus for buying the novel. The DM would be under no obligation to use the PDF in his or her game, but it would be there and available if they wanted it! Thanks Zandilar. A discount code included with the novel might be nice. The general idea is for Wizard's to make money, and selling the PDF's for $10 each would be nice. If you purchase the novel it costs $5. It would include feats, items, spells, character stat blocks and information, as well as the changes made to the world as a result of the novel. Adventure hooks could also be offered, hooks that get the PC's involved in the action that took place in the novel, or hooks that help PC's get involved with the aftermath. I would certainly be highly inclined to purchase the novels for the story and the coupon code. Suffice it to say, I would be ecstatic and eternally happy. Anyway, what kind of lore could be placed into a PDF that a person could access from buying a novel? Why not just put whatever could be included in the actual novel, and call it a day. Well, as long as it pertains to the novel, anyway. Because it costs money to have more things printed on paper. They can sell them cheaper and for less cost by putting them in PDF format. You can then download them and burn them to CD's, use book marks in the PDF to find what you need quickly, and print off anything you want. Or simply use a laptop during a gaming session. (Seriously, what DM isn't using a laptop now-a-days for note keeping and organizing alone?)
Zandilar 05-23-07, 02:39 AM	Heya, Because it costs money to have more things printed on paper. They can sell them cheaper and for less cost by putting them in PDF format. You can then download them and burn them to CD's, use book marks in the PDF to find what you need quickly, and print off anything you want. Or simply use a laptop during a gaming session. (Seriously, what DM isn't using a laptop now-a-days for note keeping and organizing alone?) A poor one? I only have a laptop because I was able to justify it to my parents - and I'm 35 and not even living at home, but they still had to buy it for me! Of course, it wasn't bought for RPing, it was bought because I'm supposed to be a professional writer and needed something to write on when I wasn't at home. I have found it to be an invaluable tool as both player and DM - makes some things far easier, though I haven't quite got the hang of using PDFs yet. :) On the other hand, I'm the only DM in my circle of friends that I know uses a laptop in game. (I'm DMing again after a break of about 10 years, wheee!)
Mikayla 05-23-07, 02:53 AM	Mel: (Seriously, what DM isn't using a laptop now-a-days for note keeping and organizing alone?) Zand: A poor one? Yeah, no kidding. I would love a laptop for all sorts of reasons, including DMing, but I cannot afford one - and I am 30-something year-old lawyer. And so I go on DMing using basically the same tools as I have for the last 30 years or so - pencils and paper. And for the record, I like the de-canonization idea, or at least the idea of minimizing the effects of novels on canon. The death of Sarya is one bit of novel-canon I could have really done without, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. And I *am* one of those people who reads the novels just to keep up with changes in canon. I've enjoyed only a very small number of the D&D novels I've read - thats not snobbery either - when it comes to pleasure reading I am no high-brow literary snoot - but - usually, D&D novel reading for me is a necessary, but painful, endeavor. Not always though - I'll give a shout out, for example, to Resurrection, which I liked a lot. :) Go Danifae! Anyway, if the Smedmen novels kill of Eilistraee and Vhaerun and such, it will be hard not to try to ignore them - and even harder to succeed at that given the new game materials will reflect the novel's events. Grrr.
Khaelieth 05-23-07, 05:54 AM	*Listens to some more Nightwish and Apocalyptica.* Ha! You really are gay! :D *Puts on Girls Girls Girls by Mötley Crüe* When my DM first used a laptop, we were all amazed! It made sooooo much easier, so I started using one myself! And better yet... It doubles as a DM screen (though a very expensive one)! But I agree with Mikayla, the death of Sarya was unecessary. And, how can a worn-out, wounded High Mage even defeat her!? IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I in general tend to dislike Smedman novels (not as much as R. A. Salvatore's though), and when she killed off Vhaeraun... *Snarls* Us surface elves need someone worthy and EVIL to worship too!
Zandilar 05-23-07, 05:56 AM	Heya, And I *am* one of those people who reads the novels just to keep up with changes in canon. I've enjoyed only a very small number of the D&D novels I've read - thats not snobbery either - when it comes to pleasure reading I am no high-brow literary snoot - but - usually, D&D novel reading for me is a necessary, but painful, endeavor. I have troubles with reading Realms novels too. Occasionally I'm surprised (Blackstaff surprsed me), but generally I am disappointed and end up just skimming through. Sometimes you can get a good enough idea of the events by reading one out of every five or ten pages. Unfortunately, this applies even to those who are concidered "greats" (Greenwood, Cunningham, Salvatore - especially Salvatore). Anyway, if the Smedmen novels kill of Eilistraee and Vhaerun and such, it will be hard not to try to ignore them - and even harder to succeed at that given the new game materials will reflect the novel's events. Grrr. I will have a hard time swallowing Eilistraee's demise (if it comes to pass). She has too many allies amongst both the Seldarine and the Faerunian pantheon for her demise to be even vaguely realistic. It would be really stupid if her connection to Mystra was ignored, for example (I mean for the sake of the gods, Demihuman Deities describes the relationship as "unusually close", and this is even despite the book being post ToT)... But then again, that's just the kind of thing I expect from Realms authors... Ignore important information when it's an inconveniance to their plot.
Alediran 05-23-07, 08:59 AM	Ha! You really are gay! :D I have Nightwish on my computer and I'm a straight male, I even went to their last concert in Buenos Aires before the split (I was completely aphonic at the end of the show), I'm between LK and GD's taste in music, at this moment on my mp4 I have: HammerFall, Angra, Sonata Arctica, Iron Maiden, Joe Satriani, Dream Theater, Pink Floyd (DSotM and some other songs), Bill Halley (I listen to a lot of oldies), The Police, Alice Cooper, Deep Purple (masters of metal *praises*), Creedence Clearwater, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Queen, Rata Blanca (argentinian metal band, the best known band of my country in the rest of the world), Van Hallen and the 1812 Overture of Tchaikovsky
Elven Avenger 05-23-07, 09:57 AM	Nightwish is one of my favorites. Cool you like Angra, Alediran, it's a band from my country :) (Brazil).
Alediran 05-23-07, 10:00 AM	Nightwish is one of my favorites. Cool you like Angra, Alediran, it's a band from my country :) (Brazil). So cooooome, Millenium Suuuun. Yes, I know they are brazillians, I'm from Argentina, although I consider myself just an earthling (I would love that the world could be composed of only one country: Earth). I wanted to kill myself when I found out that they played here just a couple weeks ago. Now I'll have to wait another decade or so. I'm sure you know about our own metal band, Rata Blanca, the only national group I like, the rest are complete crap.
MaskedOne 05-23-07, 10:23 AM	I will have a hard time swallowing Eilistraee's demise (if it comes to pass). She has too many allies amongst both the Seldarine and the Faerunian pantheon for her demise to be even vaguely realistic. It would be really stupid if her connection to Mystra was ignored, for example (I mean for the sake of the gods, Demihuman Deities describes the relationship as "unusually close", and this is even despite the book being post ToT)... But then again, that's just the kind of thing I expect from Realms authors... Ignore important information when it's an inconveniance to their plot. Currently restructuring the defensive protocols for Eilistraee to account for Lolth's promotion and the fact that any interference will be pulled in conjunction with Midnight rather than the Mystra that helped me devise the original protocols. Should be done soon. Of course, considering that this persona has no place in canon and would garner far more distaste for the Lady of Mysteries if it did, I can't guarantee what the authors will do.
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:24 AM	Of course, considering that this persona has no place in canon and would garner far more distaste for the Lady of Mysteries if it did, I can't guarantee what the authors will do. -You can't say you didn't try... Ha! You really are gay! :D -That was pretty funny. But then again, that's just the kind of thing I expect from Realms authors... Ignore important information when it's an inconveniance to their plot. -Sadly, this is becomming all too common, isn't it...
Mikayla 05-23-07, 12:54 PM	Khal: But I agree with Mikayla, the death of Sarya was unecessary. And, how can a worn-out, wounded High Mage even defeat her!? IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Long live Sarya! Ok, here is my plan - I shall become a famous author, win a few Pulitzer Prizes, maybe a Nobel, then offer to write some Forgotten Realms fiction for WotC - then, BAM! I resurrect Sarya (who, along with Danifae, is my fav realms personality) and ensure that while Lolth reigns supreme in the Underdark, she continues to be opposed by the light of her daughter Eilistraee and the dark of her son Vhaerun. And then if my books sell, I have Lolth "win" and burn down Arvandor! Yay for me! Now, step one. Write a few prize winning novels. Should be no problem - if I put my mind to it, I should have them done by lunch . . . ;) P.S. What does being gay have to do with "Nightwish"? I am not gay, exactly, but I am pretty queer (I am bi-girl and I am President of the largest "gay" event in the U.S. - the San Francisco Pride parade and festival) and I've never heard of Nightwish. Who are they?
Alediran 05-23-07, 01:03 PM	And then if my books sell, I have Lolth "win" and burn down Arvandor! Don't even try it, we elves would never allow it. P.S. What does being gay have to do with "Nightwish"? I am not gay, exactly, but I am pretty queer (I am bi-girl and I am President of the largest "gay" event in the U.S. - the San Francisco Pride parade and festival) and I've never heard of Nightwish. Who are they? I don't know either, in Argentina Nightwish is listened by Metal fans, because it's a metal band and a good one too. Just go to www.nightwish.com. They have a song called Wishmaster and it's dedicated to Dragonlance, during the last concert in Buenos Aires the whole stadium when nuts when they played it, it's one of their best songs.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 01:36 PM	The drummer's favorite book is listed as Dragons of Autumn Twilight. And I am platonically aroused by Tarja's voice. Mikayla, youtube is your friend, if you want to know more Nightwish. Some of my favorite songs that are available on there (ignoring some bad videos) are Nemo, Ghost Love Score, Passion and the Opera, Fantasmic, Gesthemene... Aw, hell. I own like 5 of their CDs and really like every one.
Khaelieth 05-23-07, 03:06 PM	Nightwish - I've only got one straight male friend who likes them (this includes closet-gays). It doesn't apply to women though=) TBH, I don't have anything against gays=)
Alediran 05-23-07, 03:30 PM	Mikayla, youtube is your friend, if you want to know more Nightwish. Some of my favorite songs that are available on there (ignoring some bad videos) are Nemo, Ghost Love Score, Passion and the Opera, Fantasmic, Gesthemene... IMC it's Elvenpath, Wishmaster, Crownless, Wanderlust, The Phantom of the Opera, Stargazers, Sacrament of Wilderness, Moondance (the first song I listened), The Riddler, The Pharaoh Sails to Orion, She is my Sin, The Kinslayer, Over the Hills and Far Away, Tenth Man Down, End of All Hope, Dead to the World, Ocean Soul, Crimsom Tide / Deep Blue Sea, Dark Chest of Wonders, Wish I had an Angel. My musical taste could be explained in the fact that I found that I have 50% male and 50% female way of thinking, and I could succesfuly combine both (I have an awesome level of intuition when it comes to people).
GothicDan 05-23-07, 03:53 PM	A test I took online once told me the same... 50%/50%. :)
Mikayla 05-23-07, 05:03 PM	**Laughs a little.**
Zanan 05-23-07, 05:12 PM	P.S. What does being gay have to do with "Nightwish"? I am not gay, exactly, but I am pretty queer (I am bi-girl and I am President of the largest "gay" event in the U.S. - the San Francisco Pride parade and festival) ... ... who should have time on her hands to take Kylara on board again. :plotting: ... and I've never heard of Nightwish. Who are they? One of the finest exports of Finnish music industry ... sort of Goth rock. Shame that Tarja left them. Deep Silent Complete In your creation heaven did decree that in your arms sweet death should dwell. Deep silent complete black velvet sea, the sirens are calling for me. Saved my soul thinking "this song's a lie" sand on the shore is so dry. deep silent complete black velvet sea brave day sinking in endless night The age will say: "this poet lies" heaven never touched earthly face. The age will say: "this night was ours" blessed with the deep the silent the complete.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 05:20 PM	**Laughs a little.** Yeah. Laugh it up, woman. ;)
MaskedOne 05-23-07, 05:29 PM	Don't even try it, we elves would never allow it. My respect fo the Srinshee and Amlauril aside, you elves would be staying out of it so I don't have to worry about what new and unexpected side effects of your work. There are enough protective measures in place to stick Lolth in the bug jar she keeps asking for should she overstep without making an amateur night of it.
Khaelieth 05-23-07, 07:14 PM	Shout shout shout Shout shout shout Shout at the devil He's the wolf screaming lonely in the night He's the blood stain on the stage He's the tear in your eye Been tempted by his lie He's the knife in your back He's rage He's the razor to the knife Oh, lonely is our lives My heads spinnin' round and round But in the seasons of wither We'll stand and deliver Be strong and laugh and [Chorus:] Shout shout shout Shout at the devil Shout shout shout He'll be the love in your eyes He'll be the blood between your thighs And then have you Cry for more He'll put strength to the test He'll put the thrill back in bed Sure you've heard it all before He'll be the risk in the kiss Might be anger on your lips Might run scared for the door But in seasons of wither We'll stand and deliver Be strong and laugh and Shout shout shout Shout at the devil Shout shout shout Shout at the devil He's the wolf screaming lonely in the night He's the blood stain on the stage He's the tear in your eye Been tempted by his lie He's the knife in your back He's rage He's the razor to the knife Oh, lonely is our lives My heads spinnin' round and round But in the seasons of wither We'll stand and deliver Be strong and laugh and Shout shout shout Shout at the devil x6 Shout shout shout x5 ----------------------------------- A friend of mine was at the Skool's Out gig here, with Mötley and Nightwish playing, she said it was quite easy to spot who was there for the different bands ^^ And the finest export of Finnish music industry is without a doubt Hanoi Rocks! But I don't reckon Lolth would stand a chance in assaulting Arvandor ;p She doesn't have the same body to woo the men anymore!
XHereticX 05-23-07, 08:04 PM	Nightwish is one of my favorites. Cool you like Angra, Alediran, it's a band from my country :) (Brazil). I love Nightwish, they are playing in New York this July and I might go to see them with my friend. Too bad Tareja is gone though, her voice was amazing.
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:31 PM	-Why is it that I have not heard of half of these people? I'm "hip". I'm "cool". I'm "in". Whats going on here?
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:36 AM	Do you listen to European Metal?
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:45 AM	-I guess that would be why. Right now, I am listening to the Hare Krishna Mantra.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:46 AM	Mystary solvd. I'm listening to Therion! Mmmm, orchestral operatic metal.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 01:29 AM	To steer this somewhat back to topic, if Lolth listened to modern music from our world, with her more recent acts she might like Korn's new song Evolution.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 01:51 AM	She would. Korn. Ha.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 02:12 AM	Lolth would also ressurect Crowley and make him her new consort. Corellan, youve been outsmarted, outdone, and outclassed. Pack your bags and leave Arivandor this instant. Its time for a true deity with magic (sex magic) in his portfolio to guide the elves.
MaskedOne 05-24-07, 02:24 AM	Lolth would also ressurect Crowley and make him her new consort. Corellan, youve been outsmarted, outdone, and outclassed. Pack your bags and leave Arivandor this instant. Its time for a true deity with magic (sex magic) in his portfolio to guide the elves. While an interesting thought, making me puke up a month of meals will not negate the defensive protocols. That plan will merely get Crowley stuck in a bug jar with Lolth.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:29 AM	Crowley was a hack.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 02:31 AM	While an interesting thought, making me puke up a month of meals will not negate the defensive protocols. That plan will merely get Crowley stuck in a bug jar with Lolth. Don't fully get that first part. Crowley actually would make an interesting character in the Forgotten Realms. One of the more mysterious ones no doubt. Ulutiu isn't doing much with his divine spark, lets give it ot Crowley. Give Socrates Moander's portfolio for corrupting the youth.
Lord_Steve 05-24-07, 01:58 PM	We are speaking of the occultist Crowley right? There is absoloutely nothing secretive about that goon.....he was one of the most "commercial" occultists out there, not to mention that ridiculous hat of his *shudders*
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:14 PM	Crowly = Hack. John Dee = The Man.
Drew1369r 05-24-07, 05:32 PM	I think LLoth turning LG would be neat to see :)
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 11:21 PM	-Crowley is my favorite character in the Suikoden video game...
PharaunMizzrym 05-25-07, 01:15 AM	What's Suikoden about?
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 11:37 AM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suikoden
XHereticX 05-25-07, 07:35 PM	-Why is it that I have not heard of half of these people? I'm "hip". I'm "cool". I'm "in". Whats going on here? I think Master Karsus, that it is time for an update.;)
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 11:01 PM	-Dan...Bren...Time for a little "Queer Eye for the Archmagi" action...:P -Then, I'll find someone to "Pimp my Enclave" -After all that, I might enter that new TV competition that's on FOX- "Are You Tougher Than 5th Level?"
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:04 PM	I'm super proud of my ensemble today. Blue jean shorts and a white t-shirt with a pastel green button up short-sleeve over it. With my new hair cut (a little bit gelled, nice sloping, sharp upward thrust, spiked up a bit in the front), I look fabulous! *Limp wrist.* *Throws up a little in his mouth.*
XHereticX 05-25-07, 11:19 PM	-Dan...Bren...Time for a little "Queer Eye for the Archmagi" action...:P -Then, I'll find someone to "Pimp my Enclave" -After all that, I might enter that new TV competition that's on FOX- "Are You Tougher Than 5th Level?" That was not what I meant by update...
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 11:33 PM	I'm super proud of my ensemble today. Blue jean shorts and a white t-shirt with a pastel green button up short-sleeve over it. With my new hair cut (a little bit gelled, nice sloping, sharp upward thrust, spiked up a bit in the front), I look fabulous! *Limp wrist.* -Too much clothing. Right now, I am wearing a shirt... ::looks down:: ...and pants. And, my hair goes where ever it damn well feels like going. I don't bother it, because it will just go right back where it was. That was not what I meant by update... -Well, you've got be be a little more specific, then!
XHereticX 05-25-07, 11:36 PM	-Too much clothing. Right now, I am wearing a shirt... ::looks down:: ...and pants. And, my hair goes where ever it damn well feels like going. I don't bother it, because it will just go right back where it was. -Well, you've got be be a little more specific, then! What I meant was to come out of your ancient enclave and see the world. Taste new foods, see new sights, screw new women:D , and become part of the world instead of a dead leaf separated from it's branch and left on the ground to rot. I didn't need you to go Compton on me:rolleyes:
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:51 PM	-Too much clothing. Right now, I am wearing a shirt... ::looks down:: ...and pants. And, my hair goes where ever it damn well feels like going. I don't bother it, because it will just go right back where it was. No wonder gay guys don't hit on you... My hair is currently like this: http://dicarlosalon.com/img/men.jpg Only blond, a little longer on the sides, and more gelled.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 12:23 AM	-I used to keep my hair cut short, but my girlfriend says it looks better longer. Now, it's about the length of my middle finger. I was going to shave it back to normal length when baseball season started, but I kind of forgot. I don't think I want to wait until the Mets win the World Series to cut it, since October is a little too far into the future...
GothicDan 05-26-07, 12:29 AM	I personally think long hair only looks good on the rare guy.
Alediran 05-26-07, 01:13 AM	I know how is that hair LK, mine is like one and half middle finger but at least if comb it while it's still wet from bath it remains in one place. If I forget to do it, well, a bad hair day is not enough title.
theartistformerlyknownas 05-26-07, 01:21 AM	I keep my hair similar Dan, but curlier and more to swept aside... Mind the legs. They haven't been out all year. http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/tyleroot/Mypics025.jpg
GothicDan 05-26-07, 01:31 AM	He so white.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 03:31 PM	-I was white, too, until I went to work today. Unbeknownst to me, I was scheduled to work all day in the hot, blistering, sun. Now, I am mostly red, with a white underside.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 03:41 PM	Like some species of bird.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 04:15 PM	-I never knew taking a cold shower could feel so good...
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:28 PM	-I never knew taking a cold shower could feel so good... Hmm. You know by having me as a Hand we can counter this vicious cycle. I am Fey after all. Slap fights are my specialty. :elf:
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:33 PM	Fey. Fairy. Heee...
Zanan 05-27-07, 05:08 AM	Can you hear the WizOs advancing, scythes at the ready?
GothicDan 05-27-07, 01:36 PM	Actually, Zanan, lately it seems like you've been doing all of the scything.. No WizOs. ;)
XHereticX 05-27-07, 01:58 PM	Ahhh, too many perverts, homosexual ones to top it off...
GothicDan 05-27-07, 02:01 PM	Better than heterosexual ones. Ewww... At least Sharess loves us. :(
XHereticX 05-27-07, 02:03 PM	Better than heterosexual ones. Ewww... At least Sharess loves us. :( Yeah, she would LOVE to kill you...
GothicDan 05-27-07, 02:05 PM	... Sharess?
GothWulf 05-27-07, 05:46 PM	Is he talking about the same Sharess I know and love....or some Anti-Sharess that belongs to the Moral Majority? *snicker* Wulfe
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 06:36 PM	Can you hear the WizOs advancing, scythes at the ready? -Dan smells to bad that the WizO's are afraid to modify any threads that he is involved with! :D
GothicDan 05-27-07, 06:57 PM	At least I can spell.
Zandilar 05-27-07, 08:26 PM	Heya, Yeah, she would LOVE to kill you... Umm... Sharess is an omnisexual deity. Not only is she bisexual, but being a deity she's more than capable of gender bending as well. I'll leave out other obvious implications about the Feline of Felicity.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 09:14 PM	I'll leave out other obvious implications about the Feline of Felicity. ... MeOW. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:27 PM	At least I can spell. -That's not the only talent you have...:rolleyes:
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:31 PM	Thank you! *Puffs up.*
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:36 PM	-That was actually supposed to be a mildly insulting jab, but close enough. The anger passed, as it was momentary, anyway.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:39 PM	It was the worst insult ever. Like sending me flowers to tell me you hated me.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:45 PM	-Unless, however, I knew that you were horribly allergic to the flowers I was sending you.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:47 PM	Did you think that I was allergic to compliments?
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:53 PM	-No, but like I said, it was a discrete insult. That's why I included the ':rolleyes:'. And, you might be allergic to compliments- you are so obstinate about everything else.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:54 PM	I'm only obstinate until someone proves me wrong!