Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 11-14-07, 07:42 PM	This is a thread for discussing the Lord of Murder and what role he should have in the FRCS. Is there a place for him or is he honestly too bogged down with bad writing and treatment as a complete chump? What should he be like?
Stigger 11-14-07, 07:46 PM	Presumably that whole being imprisoned thing is gonna kinda put a crimp in his style, so not sure if there is a place for him in 4e. As to 3.x, I think there could be a place for him if they followed his stats and a DM ignored the accumulated garbage he's been credited with. Officially, I think he's screwed, even if on the face of it, his actions make pretty much no sense in you look at his 'build'. I don't go by builds personally, as they lead to exactly this sort of problem... one of those major reasons I'm against having deities statted at all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-14-07, 08:00 PM	No offense, Charles, but my first reaction to this thread is...not again! I agree with Stigger that deities shouldn't need to be statted.
Vasyek 11-14-07, 08:41 PM	I don't buy that the harm to his character through past work is by any means irreparable. If Bane can come back as the archnemesis of the free world after the Avatar Trilogy and Mask can manage to be slick after Prince of Lies/Crucible, then I question the very existence of such a point of no return, at least in the context of the official Realms. As for his place in the realms, I think being a pariah/wildcard in the pantheon suits him just fine, so long as he has the cunning to believably survive its consequences and occasionally manage to dupe/conspire with others in spite of it. As far as I'm concerned, his value as a god particularly emerged until after he lost the Tyrant/Lord of the godless Dead schtick: it's a mistake to try to make him imposing in that way. The snake in the grass, the little devil perched on your shoulder, and the vulture overhead... those are more the paradigms I see as fitting him, and those are the paradigms I think could conceivably lend him any merit as a Chaotic Evil greater god that isn't Talos. Even so, I'd like to see him retain a measure of the violent and impetuous nature the novels establish, as I think it's a large part of what separates him from Shar and Mask, just not to the point of doing wacky things like trying to complete major artifacts/consolidate his worship in his earthly seat of power while simultaneously closing off his ability to monitor anything so he can cast a spell to find someone who really doesn't matter when all's said and done, and could easily wait until the first objective is accomplished even if he did. I could almost forgive the sending of conflicting visions to factions within his church and generally setting them at each other's throat if it wasn't quite to the established extent and there was a method to his madness at the time: such as reorganizing the faith into a mass of divergent underground cells whose true threat emerged from their elusiveness/infiltration of societies at a variety of levels. That's even sort of the case in the church as it stands according to Lords of Darkness, I believe, but I also think that the church doesn't really take it far enough. Basically, a strict minority at best should ever operate in the open amongst the true Cyricists, who'd be but a fraction of his powerbase compared to those who inadvertently fueled his divinity as a result of the church's manipulations and through independent actions that were complimentary his portfolio. The latter would be the key distinction I'd raise between the belief sources (re: their mortal agents) of Cyric and Shar: Shar wiles through charm and apparent sympathy or relief, thriving on corruption through growing deficit (sentiments diminishing, hopes abandoned, etc.), while Cyric preys upon their ambitions and insecurities to further alienate them rather than bring them into the fold directly (let them make their own way when they've cheated themselves of everyone else, if they live that long), and often doesn't even need to do that as people feed him in spite of themselves on the Strife/Intrigue/Deception front.
Charles Phipps 11-14-07, 09:19 PM	Presumably that whole being imprisoned thing is gonna kinda put a crimp in his style, so not sure if there is a place for him in 4e. Here's what Richard Baker said at Candlekeep I don't really know yet, to be honest. The Grand History blurb is about as much as I know for sure. I think Chris Sims is writing the deity material for the 4e Campaign Guide, and he'll be taking the first crack at those details. Off the top of my head, I think it's a light house arrest, and Cyric can keep up on things pretty well through his intermediaries (proxies, dark angels, whatever). But I'm waiting to see what Chris comes up with.
Lord_Madrigan 11-14-07, 11:14 PM	No offense, Charles, but my first reaction to this thread is...not again! I agree with Stigger that deities shouldn't need to be statted. I concur Gods Don't need stats. I will however tolerate Avatar stats.
GreenKnight 11-14-07, 11:18 PM	I like having god stats, myself. It was especially pleasing when I was on the Mask of the Betrayer boards, and people kept claiming that they should've been able to fight Kelemvor, and that they could've won. It was pretty satisfying to actually point to his stats and say, no, not only could you not possibly beat him, but it'd be a miracle if you managed to go for more then one round without Kelemvor inflicting a TPK.
johnkretzer 11-14-07, 11:33 PM	This is a thread for discussing the Lord of Murder and what role he should have in the FRCS. Is there a place for him or is he honestly too bogged down with bad writing and treatment as a complete chump? What should he be like? I have gone over so many times the reasons why I dislike Cyric that I won't list them here again...though another one came to me... He is too much like Loki. While gods are based loosely on our own various pantheons they are their own beings and do have unquie traits to them that makes them feel different.(Heck even the gods that were stolen from mythology staight away still aren't carbon copies). So if I really wanted a pantheon that mirrored this worlds many mythologys I would just use the deity book. I like Leira over Cyric because she was just more orginal.
Charles Phipps 11-15-07, 01:45 AM	Odd, I felt the problem with Cyric was that he wasn't Loki enough. :-) I'd actually replace Cyric whole with Tyr's old nemesis.
Suin Bahhar 11-15-07, 10:36 AM	Cyric should have the Loki archetype when fully matured. But him being only 20 some years old diety his lacking of protocol skills within the Fearunian pantheon has made him only enemies and a dubious ally in Shar. His power enables him to scheme against the enemy gods and he has so many layers of intrigues spinning I could imagine that even after the imprisonment he could still see some of those intrigues fester and grow through his minions he influences. I wonder how illusionists and illusions will be handled in 4th edition. Maybe they get axed during the Cyrics roomarrest, or a new divine champion of illusions fosters over the portfolio of illusions for Cyric. This could be interesting if they split Cyrics portfolios duties to a quartet of dark minions or demons loyal to Cyric, acting on Fearuns ground in Cyrics absense riding black redeyed caushemars (a bit like Apocalypses plagueriders from Xmen) .
The_Shaman 11-16-07, 08:31 AM	I would prefer if Cyric would not be updated, or at least dropped significantly in strength, in favor of a stronger Mask. I never could feel his style, and I'd think Mask has a lot more - and a lot saner - followers than Cyric does. Plus, Mask could make a pretty darn good god of illusion as it is - F&P makes a good argument that almost no one knows for sure that they've seen Mask. Either that, or resurrect Leira. What better credential for an illusion goddess than to have fooled the entire world, including most of her known worshippers?
Charles Phipps 11-16-07, 01:48 PM	I'd prefer they ressurect Leira only to have Mask kill her and take her portfolio. "This time, she's REALLY dead."
Stigger 11-16-07, 03:29 PM	I'd gank Mask and hand his stuff over to Brandobaris myself... with Leira still around but in hiding.
johnkretzer 11-16-07, 04:45 PM	I'd prefer they ressurect Leira only to have Mask kill her and take her portfolio. "This time, she's REALLY dead." I don't get the hate you have for Leira...she was a much DM friendlier goddess the Cyric ever was. Mmm...I guess the bottom line is that Cyric is too developed by the designers to be that useful to me. I am not going to get into a arguement about rather it he was developed in a good way or a bad way. He is just useless to me from a DM or player perspective that tries to keep his game a little close to the Realms baseline. It is nice to do something crafty and such with a god of trickery and not get arguements that he wouldn't do this because on page x of novel x he says he hates that kind of plan. With Leira I really never had to dealt with that. Also I think it is odd that you feel like Cyric act like a god of deception and illusions and intrigue more(personaly it makes sense he doesn't because in my heart Leira is still that despite what Cyric believes), yet if Leira has tricked Cyric and Mask into believing she is dead and as stolen Intrigue from Mask via Cyric killing him...that would be probably top anything Cyric has ever done in those. Wouldn't she atleast gain your grudging respect as the goddess of trickster...or do you have other problems with her?
Mirtek 11-16-07, 05:05 PM	The problem with Cyric is that he is not portrayed like he should be. Currently he is probably the deity with the most dangerous combination of portfolios. All his portfolios complement each other and weave a deadly impenetrable curtain. His church could all but vanish from the face of Toril, because with such a deity they don't need to be there up in the spotlight. The church can hide, relax and pull the strings of power from behind the scens. An intrigue backed by convincing illuison here, a precise assassination there and leave the rest to the king's merry old advisor secretly directing the course of the whole nation toward strife with just a few sweet lies whispered into the king's ear. If Bane's church wants pompous temples and widley known holy cities, then give the fools their glory. Makes it all the easier to find them. If Banites discover a secret temple of Cyric (well hidden from the face of Toril behind layers of lies and illusions) they might mount an assault, shouting Banes name and slaying whomever they can while dragging a few back as sacrifices to Bane. If Cyricists discover a hidden temple of Bane, they just make sure that the news spread around a few corners until reaching the church of Tyr. And while Tyr's paladins mount an assault and the battling followers of Tyr and Bane are dying and shouting the names of their deity, the Cyricist watch from afar, silently mouthing "for Cyric" anytime one of the combatants fall. A holy city of Cyric might never know that it has this honor. The temples, shrines and cells of worshippers hidden so thoroughly that the non-Cyricist citizen will never know who truly runs the affairs in her city. Churches like Bane's are a mighty dragon. But if you cut of the head, you kill the beast. Cyric's church is a hydra, a swarm, a growing cancer. Destroy one cell and no other cell is harmed (and forget merely two survivors and each of them will start a new cell).
Charles Phipps 11-16-07, 07:42 PM	I don't get the hate you have for Leira...she was a much DM friendlier goddess the Cyric ever was. I'm very into evil Tricksters. The cunning Mephistopheles Trickster from Faust and Loki especially. Leira just bugged the Hell out of me for the fact that she wasn't more like Mask. An evil figure that was consumed with Secrets, Puzzles, Lies, and Deception. I wanted someone "grander" and the fact people keep wishing her back sorta annoys me. Cyric may be an utter waste as written but he's a suitably grandiose God for the kind of being Emperor Palpatine would worship. (I fully believe any Trickster God would destroy Bane fairly easily because evil is best suited with subtlety) If Leira was Chaotic Evil, she'd probably rank with one of my favorite goddesses. As such, any Trickster that will attract me must not only want to fool people but destroy their lives while doing it. (FYI- I'm aware there's many non-evil ones in real world mythology as well. They have a place in my game, I just prefer having a God for Evil Masterminds and Subterfuge. I'm stuck with Gargauth according to canon)
The_Shaman 11-16-07, 08:14 PM	Yeah, but right now there aren't any non-evil tricksters outside the racial pantheons, which is even worse. If anything, I would have assumed the classical trickster archetype is closest to CN alignment. Greyhawk does okay with Olidammara, but what's the closest we have... Tymora? She feels a bit too, hmm, sedentary to be a proper trickstress. Brandobaris and Erevan Ilesere are a little too non-mainstream. If I want to have a proper trickster deity, right now it's either Mask or one of those understudies. Bleh. Mask has what it takes, but is just stuck at a lousy position between Cyric and Shar. How come Mask, the Master of Intrigue, messes up more often than not while Cyric, a half-nut, progresses? I can only think it's luck - and it's high time their luck turned. BTW, we have imo a CE deity that could handle the trickster job, and not go into archfiend territory (those could use some screentime of their own, perhaps, but not in this regard): Beshaba. I know she's been given some insipid roles, but she has some great potential. After all, what could be cooler than making sure all - mortals and gods - receive the bad luck they're due?
Charles Phipps 11-16-07, 09:03 PM	I figure that we do need a non-evil Trickster deity But that could be folded into Shandukul, Milil, or Finder. However, we'd actually need to give them a role in the pantheon. And yes, Tymora and Beshaba need updating.
johnkretzer 11-16-07, 10:35 PM	Maybe it is because I always viewed Mask as the evil trickster god of the Realms and Leira as the non-evil one. But I don't see a need for Cyric to have taken on that role. Because to me as a mortal he just never seemed to be really clever and as a god he seemed better suited to being the god of madness. Also I guess my main issue with Cyric is that every book that deals with the gods(except for the two recent drow series) he has been the protagonist. I never cared for him to start with and well I have to almost constantly get him shoved into my face. I think the other gods are just more interesting.
Mirtek 11-17-07, 06:42 AM	Also I guess my main issue with Cyric is that every book that deals with the gods(except for the two recent drow series) he has been the protagonist. Actually that isn't true at all. Cyric had 5 books (whick all also dealed with other deities). Bhaal had two (three). Bane had two (five). Finder hat three And that's ignoring the most recent. So yes, Cyric certainly had more books, but far from every book. Counting also the most current novels, Mask and Lolth have much more novels than Cyric. A real shame that Paul did not simply make Erevis and Riven Cyricists instead of Maskarians, because if he had, the boards would be crawling with Cyric fans.
johnkretzer 11-17-07, 04:49 PM	Actually that isn't true at all. Cyric had 5 books (whick all also dealed with other deities). Bhaal had two (three). Bane had two (five). Finder hat three And that's ignoring the most recent. So yes, Cyric certainly had more books, but far from every book. Counting also the most current novels, Mask and Lolth have much more novels than Cyric. A real shame that Paul did not simply make Erevis and Riven Cyricists instead of Maskarians, because if he had, the boards would be crawling with Cyric fans. While you might be right that Lolth might be catching up those other books did not have the gods as protagonist( heck even Finder wasn't the protagonist in the series he bacame a god). Cyric has been the protagonist in all the books he appears in. He is a boring infantile character. If the New Realms were going to be WotC moving on from writing about the god I could almost like it...but it seems there will be even more stories featuring this punk...yeah :rolleyes:. And please don't give me the imprisonment for a 1000 years line because we all know that is going to last maybe a year after the release of the FRCG. Also I really don't see alot of Mask fans crawling around here...?
Book 11-18-07, 05:08 PM	I don't buy that the harm to his character through past work is by any means irreparable. {{{ Tons of Snippage }}} I always enjoy reading Vasyek's take on deities such Cyric, Shar, Bane, and Mask. He has a good handle on these religions from a fan's alternative perspective.
Vasyek 11-19-07, 12:11 PM	Much obliged. Though to be fair, I can't recall having ever said anything about Bane on these boards that wasn't an insult or at least a criticism overall.
Craig C. 11-19-07, 12:23 PM	I've noticed that about you as well. Although I think you've given him a backhanded compliment or two. :-) How would you Bane more interesting, Vasyek? I personally find him and his clergy to be lacking nuance and subtleties.
Stigger 11-19-07, 01:16 PM	There's not much that subtle about tyranny... except maybe for how it can begin... but the whole Palpatine method doesn't seem to be something Bane much cares for.
Vasyek 11-19-07, 01:21 PM	I've noticed that about you as well. Although I think you've given him a backhanded compliment or two. :-) How would you Bane more interesting, Vasyek? That's a tough one I think, because the lack of subtlety seems to be a pretty big part of his character. He's not a sly tyrant like Gargauth or Asmodeus, at best he's like some of the descriptions I've seen of some Hextorians (or whatever they call that mook's faithful): essentially having nothing to do with subtlety while still exhibiting guile of a sort, particularly in matters pertaining to tactics and strategy. I guess the key would be explaining his success/charisma in spite of this. For all my disdain for him I think it's pretty tacky to use any god as a straight up joke, so I tend to operate under the assumption, outside of the realm of debate at least, that his overtness belies a calculating nature that it invites others not to consider. The key to his survival for the last thousand years or so would have a lot to do with that, unsurprisingly. For all that he operates predominantly in the open and everyone knows where the bulk of his followers are, for all that everyone and their dog knows that he means to kill or enslave every other god in the pantheon, he's managed to bend thousands upon thousands to his cause and commit who knows how many atrocities without giving rise to a good/neutral or even evil (and I'm sure pragmatists like Mask and Myrkul were sorely tempted at times) anti-Bane coalition among the gods to end his threat once and for all. Bane himself, then, is a lot more conscious of what he can/can't get away with than you'd expect him to be (the theft of the tablets being an exception, of course) and yet he manages to come off as the aloof, impending menace nontheless. Even the gods probably don't see through his composure and cultivated image all the time, and this translates to a fair amount of indecision and thus missed opportunities against him. On the other hand, he obviously isn't all talk or posturing; I'd say part of the reason he can still manage to play the big bad tyrant without any real attempt to justify it is that he's that good at exploiting human weakness. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect... every trick any bastard parent/lover's used he's gone on to perfect and apply on a far grander scale. He doesn't need to talk about things like fighting off anarchy, although his priests may profit from that kind of rhetoric on occasion, because not only is he good at hurting people, he's even better at making them think they can do nothing about it or even deserve it. The theme in his territories would be fatalism, unsurprisingly, but of a more variable sort than the kind Shar and Talos are pushing: the more abject a victim you are of the system, the more you are conditioned to regard yourself as powerless and subhuman. The empowered members of society would be more inclined to vaunt the power of ambition and will, as well as the benefits of the collective (in some cases secondarily, usually towards the top), but even for them it's an inescapable tenet of the faith that Bane can't be resisted or questioned in any way. They can try to make the best of it by becoming lesser tyrants in his shadow, but in the end I think the fear of their god is much more vital and pervasive a part of the church than it is for the likes of Cyricists and Sharrans, who prefer or at least make more frequent use of alternative motivations. I'm almost tempted to say that a Banite who didn't fear Bane is one of the False right off the bat. Frankly, I'm more inclined to replace him with the likes of Gargauth or Memnor even though I've never quite gotten around to it in my games (if only because Bane's so iconic to the setting.) They can be as brutal and insidious in their oppression of others while still engaging in the political intrigues and temptations that elude Bane.
Stigger 11-19-07, 01:26 PM	Now that, is one of the best takes on Bane I've yet to see Vasyek. Gonna ncorporate that into my thoughts on him I think. Thanks. :)
Vasyek 11-19-07, 01:45 PM	Glad to be of service, though as one who is more of an advocate of Cyric I suppose I shouldn't be.
Craig C. 11-19-07, 01:46 PM	Agreed ... nice work on the Bane angle, Vasyek. Part of his appeal too, is that there's a significant portion of the human demographic that truely wants to have a powerful overseer in their life who will protect them and enforce discipline on their unstructured & danger-filled lives. And in that, Bane does better than most gods. Unfortunately, it comes with all his fear-mongering and micro-managing baggage to boot. In essence, he's a "Protective Father" type god. Although if you disobey him, don't expect any positive reinforcement. :b: