| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Kiioro12-10-07, 01:21 PM | Mystra is dead, that much I know, and the Spellplague thing happens. But what does that mean? I always found Mystra pretty boring -and yeah, I know I'll be hated for that, yet, this is not the point- but I still think her death sets a good possible plot: Mystra has been killed, yet, since she was a greater deity, she still has a large number of followers who intend to bring her back from the dead, praying daily, doing whatever means to bring her back... They know it has worked for some other gods, they have come back from the dead, why wouldn't a goddess like Mystra be able to do so? A good part of the campaign would be to bring Mystra back (or keep her dead). That being said, what will happen to magic? I just hope guns aren't made common: unless it's a modern/futuristic or a pirate setting, I steer clear from anything that has guns. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-10-07, 01:43 PM | That being said, what will happen to magic? I just hope guns aren't made common: unless it's a modern/futuristic or a pirate setting, I steer clear from anything that has guns. I think Rich confirmed that guns aren't going to become common. :) As for what will happen to magic? We don't know yet, though we do know that there will be magic. |
| Lord Karsus12-10-07, 02:52 PM | -Don't worry. I never liked Mystra too much either. |
| Kiioro12-11-07, 02:18 PM | So, am I the only one that thinks that a dead Mystra and the attempts to bring her back to life/godhood is cool as a story? Never mind the goddess. The story plots and hooks available from that. |
| GreenKnight12-11-07, 02:38 PM | So, am I the only one that thinks that a dead Mystra and the attempts to bring her back to life/godhood is cool as a story? Never mind the goddess. The story plots and hooks available from that. You're not the only one. One can only hope that that's a direction they end up going in, because I want to see Mystra back in the Realms. |
| Lord Karsus12-11-07, 05:25 PM | You're not the only one. One can only hope that that's a direction they end up going in, because I want to see Mystra back in the Realms. -I don't want to see that, at least not initially. It cheapens everything, in my estimation. Either kill her, or keep her around. Don't be wishy-washy and kill her, but then bring her right back to life. After a decent amount of time, I could get behind a plotline to bring Mystra back, though. Keyword is 'Decent amount of time'. |
| GreenKnight12-11-07, 06:11 PM | -I don't want to see that, at least not initially. It cheapens everything, in my estimation. Either kill her, or keep her around. Don't be wishy-washy and kill her, but then bring her right back to life. After a decent amount of time, I could get behind a plotline to bring Mystra back, though. Keyword is 'Decent amount of time'. Well, if you define "decent amount of time" as approximately a year, then I agree. :P |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-11-07, 06:47 PM | I agree and disagree with Lord Karsus. Bringing Mystra back later would (probably) make this whole Spellplague plot even more pointless. But on the other hand, imagine hearing the design team at some later date admitting that killing off Mystra was a bad idea all along... |
| msatran12-11-07, 06:55 PM | Here's what will happen. They'll stick an orb in your mouth, a staff in your hand, and a wand up your a** and then they'll tell you "Everything's fine now." |
| Kiioro12-11-07, 09:45 PM | Now, now, we're not Mr. Garrison... I meant it as an optional thing that could go into your campaign. They'd state the fact that Mystra is still followed and people are trying to bring her back to godhood. Her fate would be decided in your campaign, no official result. |
| Lord Karsus12-11-07, 10:03 PM | Well, if you define "decent amount of time" as approximately a year, then I agree. :P -Not a year, no. Three? Four? Of course, in real life years, regardless if there is a 100 year time skip, or whatever. Something like that. Enough time to allow the "new" Realms to get established, so that bringing back Mystra is something special, instead of a, "Well, time to rbing back Mystra now, oh, how routine..." But on the other hand, imagine hearing the design team at some later date admitting that killing off Mystra was a bad idea all along... -Are we that proud that we need to hear with our ears what we already know in our hearts? |
| Meldread12-11-07, 10:56 PM | Mystra is dead, and so is the Weave. However, as per the Chris Perkins FR Interview something is going to replace it. We just do not know what yet. |
| Dark Wizard12-11-07, 11:02 PM | They need to decide on Mystra once and for all. Hopefully this is it. The first death and rebirth of Mystra presented in the setting's ancient history defined the setting. The second time it offered some intriguing opportunities; a young goddess taking up the mantle of one of the most powerful positions in the setting amidst many dangerous enemies both new and ancient beyond reckoning. If they do it again, I'm not sure what else it can add, perhaps nothing more than filling out lost potential, which will never be as high ever again. |
| GreenKnight12-11-07, 11:48 PM | -Not a year, no. Three? Four? Of course, in real life years, regardless if there is a 100 year time skip, or whatever. Something like that. Enough time to allow the "new" Realms to get established, so that bringing back Mystra is something special, instead of a, "Well, time to rbing back Mystra now, oh, how routine..." Well, something about a 101 year absence from the Realms seems magical to me. You know, like "a year and a day" and all that. Just so long as she comes back. If Manshoon can come up with contingencies to keep himself alive, and if Bane can have a contingency plan in place to bring him back to life after being dead 14 years, then surely Mystra, the Goddess of Magic, must have something up her sleeve. Besides, if you want to look at a similar example, look at Superman. They brought him back a lot quicker then 3-4 years after his death and it was still pretty special. And unlike Superman, 100 years will have passed in Faerun. -Are we that proud that we need to hear with our ears what we already know in our hearts? :heehee |
| Lord Karsus12-11-07, 11:52 PM | Well, something about a 101 year absence from the Realms seems magical to me. You know, like "a year and a day" and all that. Just so long as she comes back. If Manshoon can come up with contingencies to keep himself alive, and if Bane can have a contingency plan in place to bring him back to life after being dead 14 years, then surely Mystra, the Goddess of Magic, must have something up her sleeve. Besides, if you want to look at a similar example, look at Superman. They brought him back a lot quicker then 3-4 years after his death and it was still pretty special. And unlike Superman, 100 years will have passed in Faerun. -The reason why I say that is because, yes, in game terms, a century or so is theoretically going to pass. But, no time is going to pass for us. To have Mystra killed in August, only to have her brought back to life in, say December, seems a little bit silly to me. However, if you wait a bit in actual years, maybe planting seeds here and there, and then making a big deal about her return, I could see it being pulled off in a pretty cool manner. -D&D is not Superman, where we get an issue every month (and sometimes sooner). We get a sourcebook of some kind once every quarter or so. Advantage to comics, as that allows them to get across more information during the same period of time (3 issues, as opposed to 1 sourcebook). (Hey, 12,000th post!) |
| Hanali-in-Love12-11-07, 11:58 PM | Rip van mystra? or rip van winkle? Hopefully I'll fall asleep for over a hundred years and wake up when this nightmare of 4Ed is over. |
| Lord Karsus12-12-07, 12:03 AM | Rip van mystra? or rip van winkle? Hopefully I'll fall asleep for over a hundred years and wake up when this nightmare of 4Ed is over. -She's already supposed to be dead (as per 1385), so doing that would just be a cheap cop-out. |
| GreenKnight12-12-07, 12:06 AM | -The reason why I say that is because, yes, in game terms, a century or so is theoretically going to pass. But, no time is going to pass for us. To have Mystra killed in August, only to have her brought back to life in, say December, seems a little bit silly to me. Well, I've been saying gone for a year. So August 2008 the new Realms comes out. Then August 2009 or roundabouts Mystra comes back. Only a handful of months would be silly. However, if you wait a bit in actual years, maybe planting seeds here and there, and then making a big deal about her return, I could see it being pulled off in a pretty cool manner. -D&D is not Superman, where we get an issue every month (and sometimes sooner). We get a sourcebook of some kind once every quarter or so. Advantage to comics, as that allows them to get across more information during the same period of time (3 issues, as opposed to 1 sourcebook). True enough. But then again, I'm not to keen on seeing grey hairs popping up on my head before seeing Mystra return. :P (Hey, 12,000th post!) Congrats! |
| Lord Karsus12-12-07, 12:09 AM | True enough. But then again, I'm not to keen on seeing grey hairs popping up on my head before seeing Mystra return. :P -That's right. I forgot about all those old people who play D&D. ;) |
| GreenKnight12-12-07, 12:33 AM | God damn you, Karsus. God damn you straight to Hell! ;) |
| Puritan1312-12-07, 03:38 AM | I'm actually not keen on Midnight coming back at all. I'd rather they keep her dead. If they absolutely, positively must bring back a God(dess) of Magic, then I hope it's Mystryl. Mystryl (or even her reincarnation, Mystra) was a better holder of the office than Midnight. I didn't really like that Midnight felt that magic should only be used for good ends. Magic should be a tool, like a hammer. With a hammer, I can nail together a house, or I can bash in a guys head. The hammer is neither good nor evil. Magic should be the same. Not that I would ever bash in a guys head with a hammer, mind you. |
| sfdragon12-12-07, 05:00 AM | God damn you, Karsus. God damn you straight to Hell! ;) that will be 100 Hail Marys for you to do GK(or 100 of what ever prayer suites you) . and 30 for me for laughing at it. liked mystra liked helm never really liked Tyr. do i need to see Mystra return, to the letter of the law no I dont. Midnight had her own head up her arse, and to much of her own plans for magic, it should of been magic first and alignment second. no matter and soon the the sun of dawn will raise to its apex and the noon day sun will return |
| Storm_Silverhand12-12-07, 07:15 AM | Heya, If they must, if they really really must kill Mystra for the reasons they've already given, then they will not bring her back (not Mystryl, not Mystra, and definitely not Midnight)... They would be hypocrites if they gave a bunch of reasons to kill Mystra and then later brought her (Mystryl, Mystra, or Midnight) back. When we see a new magic deity in Faerun, he (because I'm almost 100% sure it's going to be a he, no matter how much I would hate the idea - I'm just going by their recent track record, and by the two deities who managed to escape the destruction of Dweomerheart) won't be as powerful as Mystra. He will just be yet another *YAWN* boring neutral magic deity who takes little to no interest in the world... Just like Boccob. If we're lucky, we might get a slightly more interesting deity (someone like a male version of Wee Jas - some wierd melding of Velsharoon and Azuth), but I highly doubt it. I want Mystra/Midnight. I don't want any other magic deity. The whole idea of a new magic deity who isn't Mystra fills my heart with sorrow and rage. The Forgotten Realms won't be the same setting without her. That is the main reason (though I do have many others, this one is the key) why I will cease collecting Realms materials once I manage to get my hands on the last few 3.5e books. Gosh, that feels better. |
| Alediran12-12-07, 07:37 AM | Heya, If they must, if they really really must kill Mystra for the reasons they've already given, then they will not bring her back (not Mystryl, not Mystra, and definitely not Midnight)... They would be hypocrites if they gave a bunch of reasons to kill Mystra and then later brought her (Mystryl, Mystra, or Midnight) back. When we see a new magic deity in Faerun, he (because I'm almost 100% sure it's going to be a he, no matter how much I would hate the idea - I'm just going by their recent track record, and by the two deities who managed to escape the destruction of Dweomerheart) won't be as powerful as Mystra. He will just be yet another *YAWN* boring neutral magic deity who takes little to no interest in the world... Just like Boccob. If we're lucky, we might get a slightly more interesting deity (someone like a male version of Wee Jas - some wierd melding of Velsharoon and Azuth), but I highly doubt it. I want Mystra/Midnight. I don't want any other magic deity. The whole idea of a new magic deity who isn't Mystra fills my heart with sorrow and rage. The Forgotten Realms won't be the same setting without her. That is the main reason (though I do have many others, this one is the key) why I will cease collecting Realms materials once I manage to get my hands on the last few 3.5e books. Gosh, that feels better. I think the same, the only thing 4ed I'll touch is the core books. If I like the rules I'll convert every thing I need to use it on 3ed FR, that means Wizard tools out (every wizard will be considered as having them all the time), 8 school separations in for example. |
| GreenKnight12-12-07, 09:42 AM | I didn't really like that Midnight felt that magic should only be used for good ends. Magic should be a tool, like a hammer. That was a rookie mistake on her part, one which she corrected in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. Check it out if you ever get the chance. I rather enjoyed it. Not that I would ever bash in a guys head with a hammer, mind you. ...rrriiiggghhhttt. /Dr. Evil |
| Lord Karsus12-12-07, 10:13 AM | God damn you, Karsus. God damn you straight to Hell! -I am rubber, you are glue. That bounces off and sticks to you. Zing! :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-12-07, 10:28 AM | -Are we that proud that we need to hear with our ears what we already know in our hearts? Lord Karsus, my sense of pride can be seen from space.;) |
| The_Shaman12-12-07, 10:52 AM | Ooh, I think it just sucked a few buildings through its gravitational field ;) I just hope there will be a sidebar somewhere saying how to run adventures in Faerun before the entire godkilling thing. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-12-07, 11:02 AM | Ooh, I think it just sucked a few buildings through its gravitational field ;) :heehee I just hope there will be a sidebar somewhere saying how to run adventures in Faerun before the entire godkilling thing. Not a bad idea. |
| GreenKnight12-12-07, 11:16 AM | that will be 100 Hail Marys for you to do GK(or 100 of what ever prayer suites you). Furk ding blast! Crap, how many more Hail Mary's does swearing add to that count? -I am rubber, you are glue. That bounces off and sticks to you. Zing! :D That's it. I challenge you to a contest. We'll each take a turn and decapitate the other. Whoever's still alive after getting decapitated wins. And just to show I'm fair, I'll let you get first swing. |
| Lord Karsus12-12-07, 11:39 AM | Lord Karsus, my sense of pride can be seen from space.;) -So that's what that was. |
| Lord Karsus12-12-07, 11:41 AM | That's it. I challenge you to a contest. We'll each take a turn and decapitate the other. Whoever's still alive after getting decapitated wins. And just to show I'm fair, I'll let you get first swing. -I'm going to have to warn you. I'm a disembodied third of the Momentary deity. As such, I have access to all sorts of pesudodivine powers. I don't exactly have a corporeal body, either. Well, I mean, I do, but this aspect doesn't. ;) |
| SteelGeneral12-12-07, 01:03 PM | While I'm not sure what will actually happen with the whole GHotR/4E thing. Here's what I think will happen... Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight is gone forever, the spell plague and the changes to magic will create an opening for either some other existing deity (Corellen or ???) to step in as God/Goddess of Magic or a new Interloper deity will emerge and take over that spot in the pantheon or (and this one reaches a bit) Velsharoon & Azuth after surviving their ousting from Dweomerheart will agree merge to take Mystra's place. Personally, I think I'll just create my own home-brewed campaign, loosely based on FR, go on from there and leave the whole mess behind. |
| Alediran12-12-07, 01:09 PM | Personally, I think I'll just create my own home-brewed campaign, loosely based on FR, go on from there and leave the whole mess behind. My take will be: from 1372 DR to the past as is published, from 1372 DR to the future it's my own realms. If I change to the 4th edition rules my justification for the changes in magic will be that Mystra finally subsumes the Shadow Weave, weakening Shar. With that change in the Weave , a new way of using magic is discovered by somebody, beeing more effective that the old way, it quickly becomes the defaul option for spellcasters. |
| Kiioro12-12-07, 06:45 PM | Hrm... since the development team doesn't seem to be aiming to please the public with the story per se (as I see so many people saddened by what will happen in 4E), I'm gonna rant. They could go and do a nice thing like: The new god/dess of magic is nothing like Mystra... a chaotic evil entity, magic has gained a destructive reputation, evil wizards roam the lands, constantly bringing suffering everywhere they set foot on. (This goes well along with how they mentioned "a wizard's tower" in many possible encounters in the different planes). As of Mystra's death, good magic users see themselves fighting against a growing image that states that every arcane magic wielder is evil, the fight to regain the neutral image of magic is lead by an old and almost crippled Elminster. |
| AskaniPsion12-12-07, 11:21 PM | So I wonder if the Seven Sisters explode when Mystra dies? LOL :D Very messy.......:eek: Mystra was in my top 5 favorite FR deities....I just don't like what they are doing with the gods in FR....luckily I have Eberron....only thing they can do wrong with Eberron is kill all the kalashtar!!! |
| Alediran12-12-07, 11:26 PM | Hrm... since the development team doesn't seem to be aiming to please the public with the story per se (as I see so many people saddened by what will happen in 4E), I'm gonna rant. They could go and do a nice thing like: The new god/dess of magic is nothing like Mystra... a chaotic evil entity, magic has gained a destructive reputation, evil wizards roam the lands, constantly bringing suffering everywhere they set foot on. (This goes well along with how they mentioned "a wizard's tower" in many possible encounters in the different planes). As of Mystra's death, good magic users see themselves fighting against a growing image that states that every arcane magic wielder is evil, the fight to regain the neutral image of magic is lead by an old and almost crippled Elminster. No please, I had enough with DL. |
| 18DELTA12-13-07, 01:17 AM | -Don't worry. I never liked Mystra too much either. How many time did you kill her, or other versions of her again?;) |
| Lord Karsus12-13-07, 01:19 AM | How many time did you kill her, or other versions of her again?;) -Just once. |
| Meldread12-13-07, 04:34 AM | I really hope they leave Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight dead. Please. I've always like the concept of the Weave, but I hated the fact that a single deity seemed to hold it and all of its power. In many ways it made Mystra second only to Ao in terms of potential, and if for some reason Ao disappeared it always felt like Mystra (supported by Lathander, Selune and Chauntea) would pretty much run things in the pantheon. The only other deity that even felt remotely comparable to keep her in check was Shar, and only after the Shadow Weave was revealed. Personally, I would like to see multiple deities holding the same portfolios so long as they have different "takes" on that portfolio. I've always like the idea of Shar, Selune and Oghma being magic deities similar too how Set, Isis and Thoth are in the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Alternatively, if they simply NEED one magic deity then I hope it is something interesting. Perhaps some type of interloper deity that is dramatically different from the others, something akin to old school Corellon. A deity that is both male and female, but at the same time neither. A deity that has strange portfolios but somehow manages to make them all work together. Crylin Greater Deity Portfolios: Magic, Temptation, Lust, Illusions, Power, Trickery, Irony Alignment: Chaotic Neutral That could be an interesting deity. I am imagining something that is supernatural in origin - perhaps something akin to a Succubus, without the evil bend. A deity that is neither male nor female, but both, gender bending as necessary, which enjoys toying with both mortals and other deities. A deity that is truly chaotic in a self-serving way, who enjoys tempting people with pleasure and lustful pursuits. Yet at the same time there is always a twisted sense of perverse pleasure and irony in all that is achieved by those tempted by the deity. On the mortal plane, wizards would be tempted with visions of grandeur and power beyond their wildest dreams. Adventurers would seek easy paths to wealth and fame; nobles would seek to increase their power through displays of grandeur. Pretending to be someone you are not would be par for the course for the deities teachings, and ironically, it is believed that through pretending you actually become what you pretended to be - thus if you spend money frivolously to display your wealth, in turn you will find yourself becoming wealthier than you ever thought imaginable. To the common man, and this would really be a common man's deity, I am imagining a god of endless revels. Great displays of wealth and many festivals, where you would find every kind of person - both young and old - completely devoid of any sense of decency. Feasts, endless amounts of drink, and wild orgies (in particular with beautiful and seductive people) would be par for the course. Scantily clad exotic acrobatic dancers (both male and female of course) dressed in colorful transparent clothing, seemingly only existing to feed your imagination and enhance your enjoyment of life. The Church would also have a darker side, creating a mysterious wonder-feel-good drug to enhance life. It would be something similar to real-world ecstasy with highly addictive properties, which would be passed around at these vast public revels. It would lower inhibitions and stimulate feelings of happiness – Zoloft on crack. Taking the drug would make everything about your life seem perfect, and focus your mind on the here and now, and in the enjoyment and pleasures being offered to you. I imagine gambling being highly important to the Church, but also during these drug created states of revelry priests going around with collection plates, asking for offerings to the church. Due to the drugged nature of the attendees, vast amounts of wealth would be given to the church without a second thought. This wealth would then be used to create even bigger and more spectacular displays of power and wealth, and before anyone really realizes it (or cares - they are having such a good time) the Church has solidified its place within the power structure. Intersexual and transsexual humanoids would be considered holy and exotic by the Church, as they would be believed to be as closest to the ideal form of their deity. A deity like this would highly value the exotic, the outcast types, making them desirable to the masses through the very things that sets them apart. Being ordinary and therefore "plain" would almost be considered a sin. Creativity and individualism, in all types of pursuits would be demanded. There is a lot that could be done with such a deity, who is both interesting and different in almost every way from the current westernized deities. (Really, creating a deity like this you are getting into really old school pantheistic religions.) This is a type of deity that could work with, either as a mastermind behind or as a side-kick for a number of the less utilized deities and churches. Sune, Sharess, Gargauth, Lliira, Waukeen, Finder, Loviatar, Milil, Siamorphe and even Shar could intermingle with this deity to one extent or another. The deity would lack any real sense of loyalty, but temporary alliances would not be out of question. A deity such as this, however, would be the Bane of Bane, and other highly lawful deities (Helm, Tyr, Torm, and Bane). |
| Puritan1312-13-07, 05:03 AM | That was a rookie mistake on her part, one which she corrected in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. Check it out if you ever get the chance. I rather enjoyed it. ...rrriiiggghhhttt. /Dr. EvilI read Crucible. It was an enjoyable read. However, of the two deities that got taught a lesson, I feel that only Kelemvor took it to heart. Midnight was still defiant. Even if she doesn't outwardly state "Magic should be used for good deeds." she tacitly approves of this in that she no longer accepts evil clerics. Clerics who were evil and part of her church before her accension are allowed to recieve spells, but she's not taking any new evil clerics. |
| Alediran12-13-07, 06:37 AM | I read Crucible. It was an enjoyable read. However, of the two deities that got taught a lesson, I feel that only Kelemvor took it to heart. Midnight was still defiant. Even if she doesn't outwardly state "Magic should be used for good deeds." she tacitly approves of this in that she no longer accepts evil clerics. Clerics who were evil and part of her church before her accension are allowed to recieve spells, but she's not taking any new evil clerics. Mystra in 3ed accepts any good or lawfull cleric (even lawful evil). @Meldread: BORING, there are already many magic goods who are neutral or evil and I DON'T want one of them to become the main magic god/ess of the realms: -Neutral Magic Gods are almost universaly boring (see Bocob) - Evil Magic Gods forces the players who want to have good spellcasters to hide their power in front of commoners (who wold react like amnians). Sorry but I preffer that the arcane caster isn't an umpopular profession among the rabble, never liked that aspect of Dragonlance where not even White Tunics were acceptable to the commoners. |
| Meldread12-13-07, 07:06 AM | Alediran- I'd hardly call the deity picture I painted boring. >_> It's as non-standard as you can get for a deity of magic. Did you read anything past the alignment? It's a step away from wizards as dusty-tome loving, ancient lore hugging recluses, and more toward the "let me use magic to impress the masses" - which in turn accomplishes what you hated. (While at the same time still leaving plenty of room for those who use magic for less than good purposes.) Even though Mystra was good aligned it hardly mattered. It's always been my opinion that she was only made good aligned to counter balance Cyric, and if not for Cyric Midnight would have maintained her Lawful Neutral alignment. Any good intentions Midnight/Mystra had became irrelevant when she was forbidden to actually act in a manor that a good aligned deity is expected to act, and while that could have made her a character that struggles with her morals, all it did was make her a hypocrite. Mystra would have been an infinitely better deity had she actually tried to defy Ao and the other gods, by saying, "Screw you all, I am going to do what is right, not what you demand of me." She might have gotten slapped down for her actions, maybe even destroyed, but in the eyes of all that are good in the Realms she would have been a hero. Lathander would have supported her, Chauntea may have supported her, Selune might have supported her, and Ilmater would have supported her, if not outright admired her for her martyrdom. Ilmater could have perhaps convinced the Triad to side with her as well. She could have shifted the balance of the Realms more toward good, assuming Ao did not strike her down immediately (and then in turn earning the ire of the aforementioned deities). Instead she picked the easy way out. She was simply going along to get along, and thus in my opinion she was never more than a good aligned wannabe. |
| Alediran12-13-07, 07:33 AM | Alediran- I'd hardly call the deity picture I painted boring. >_> It's as non-standard as you can get for a deity of magic. Did you read anything past the alignment? It's a step away from wizards as dusty-tome loving, ancient lore hugging recluses, and more toward the "let me use magic to impress the masses" - which in turn accomplishes what you hated. (While at the same time still leaving plenty of room for those who use magic for less than good purposes.) The problem is that it allows DMs a free rein to punish the arcane caster player just for being one (unless the DM likes arcane casters, wich is the exception rather than the norm). He only needs to put an NPC in the middle of the crowd who know the character and scream that the PC is a Wizard. End result: a mob is after the wizard for doing nothing. Even though Mystra was good aligned it hardly mattered. It's always been my opinion that she was only made good aligned to counter balance Cyric, and if not for Cyric Midnight would have maintained her Lawful Neutral alignment. Any good intentions Midnight/Mystra had became irrelevant when she was forbidden to actually act in a manor that a good aligned deity is expected to act, and while that could have made her a character that struggles with her morals, all it did was make her a hypocrite. It didn't make her a hypocrite because she changed bluntness with finesse. If she wasn't allowed to do what she wanted, then she would do it in another way, and that can be seen with the changes to the election of the Magister and the Mageduel rules. Both implied a change in the lives of spellcasters, especialy with the Mageduel that allowed Spellcasters to fight without killing each other. Mystra would have been an infinitely better deity had she actually tried to defy Ao and the other gods, by saying, "Screw you all, I am going to do what is right, not what you demand of me." She might have gotten slapped down for her actions, maybe even destroyed, but in the eyes of all that are good in the Realms she would have been a hero. Lathander would have supported her, Chauntea may have supported her, Selune might have supported her, and Ilmater would have supported her, if not outright admired her for her martyrdom. Ilmater could have perhaps convinced the Triad to side with her as well. She could have shifted the balance of the Realms more toward good, assuming Ao did not strike her down immediately (and then in turn earning the ire of the aforementioned deities). Instead she picked the easy way out. She was simply going along to get along, and thus in my opinion she was never more than a good aligned wannabe. Just because you don't defy AO directly (only a fool like Cyric would do it) it doesn't means that you do nothing. Good characters/gods can act subtly if needed, and that's what Midnight understood. Long term planing and subtlety would made her more succesful than bashing everybody. And BTW, I never considered Midnight during the ToT trilogy to be anything less than Lawful Good, she never acted neutral on the books. |
| The_Shaman12-13-07, 08:20 AM | Even though Mystra was good aligned it hardly mattered. It's always been my opinion that she was only made good aligned to counter balance Cyric, and if not for Cyric Midnight would have maintained her Lawful Neutral alignment. Any good intentions Midnight/Mystra had became irrelevant when she was forbidden to actually act in a manor that a good aligned deity is expected to act, and while that could have made her a character that struggles with her morals, all it did was make her a hypocrite. Mystra would have been an infinitely better deity had she actually tried to defy Ao and the other gods, by saying, "Screw you all, I am going to do what is right, not what you demand of me." She might have gotten slapped down for her actions, maybe even destroyed, but in the eyes of all that are good in the Realms she would have been a hero. Lathander would have supported her, Chauntea may have supported her, Selune might have supported her, and Ilmater would have supported her, if not outright admired her for her martyrdom. Ilmater could have perhaps convinced the Triad to side with her as well. She could have shifted the balance of the Realms more toward good, assuming Ao did not strike her down immediately (and then in turn earning the ire of the aforementioned deities). Instead she picked the easy way out. She was simply going along to get along, and thus in my opinion she was never more than a good aligned wannabe. You see, this is what makes the Weave deities so interesting: for all their power, they are very limited. Thus, Mystra, whatever she may want, has to act to preserve magic and its practitioners, even if she personally finds their views repellent. Thus, she is a steward of magic more than its master, and imo that's what sets her aside from other deities of magic - Boccob, Wee Jas, Azuth, etc: she's not just a deity of magic but that she is magic. It's not a matter of who would have supported or opposed her - most of her limitations come not from what she wants or fears, but from what her power dictates. Her duty requires of her a neutral or lawful alignment - and while she herself may be of good alignment, it may be dangerous for her to bring all her power to bear in an issue that is not related to her portfolio. |
| Meldread12-13-07, 09:09 AM | Alediran- I never said that wizards should be treated like that, nor even implied it. The simple fact is such a view of magic would not work overly well (at least in 3.5E) Faerun. I can only think of one, maybe two nations (and only some places there) where magic is frowned upon. What you call finesse is what I call apathy. You must have a rather broad scope for good aligned individuals. Mystra was squarely Neutral leaning toward good, but never good enough to actually -be- good despite how her alignment was printed. Mystra had very clear choices - she could have fought against the restrictions placed upon her or she could have accepted it. She chose the former, the changes you mention are cosmetic only. Changing how the mage duel works does not justify a character to be good aligned. Fzoul could attempt to save a child from impending execution because he may have a soft spot for children, but that would not make him a good man. To be good aligned (or conversely evil aligned) it requires systematic actions, repeated, over the course of time. Those actions have to be consistent enough, and routine enough, where they affect how you view the world. Let's take a real world example: Martin Luther King Jr. The majority of people would perhaps give him either a neutral good or a chaotic good alignment. When people told him that the police were coming to arrest him for boycotting segregation, he didn't turn around and tell everyone: "Well the cops are coming we better pack up and obey the law." He defied the law in such a way that caused no harm to others. He jeopardized his freedom, and endangered his life (and in the end lost his life) to fight the laws of segregation. Midnight had a similar problem before her: She could have used the power she was granted to pursue goals that were amiable to her morals or she could accept the law as dictated to her by others. She chose the former. There were options that Mystra could have pursued but chose not to pursue. For example: She could have extended her portfolios that would have enabled her even more freedom in her actions. She could have ordered her mortal servants to track down, and either convert or destroy evil aligned wizards. She could have developed a spell that would have allowed another wizard to cut another wizard off from the Weave. (Similar to being gentled in the Wheel of Time series.) This would have allowed her mortal servants to do what she could not do. However, here is one case in point where Mystra would have definitely fallen toward neutral and away from good. The Simbul wanted to defeat and destroy the Red Wizards once and for all. However, Mystra appeared to her and told her not to proceed. Why? Because the Red Wizards, through their enclaves are spreading magic. Now, to a neutral aligned or evil aligned deity this is a perfectly acceptable and rational frame of mind. However, to a good aligned Mystra? No. A good aligned Mystra would not be concerned with magic spreading, so much as what type of magic is spreading and who is spreading it. Mystra out of all the deities the only one she had to truly fear was Ao. However, at the same time, if she even took a confrontational stance against him for the greater good, Ao would still be loathed to touch her. Why? Because of the other good aligned deities. Imagine how they would view Ao if he smote Mystra because she refused to be his willing puppet? Mystra would become a martyr and her sacrifice would never have been forgotten or forgiven. As powerful as Ao is it is still annoying to have just about every deity in the Realms undermining you at every opportunity. He can only smite so many deities before they all simply band together and overthrow or imprison him. I am of the firm belief, however, that Lathander, Chauntea, Selune, Mystra and Ilmater (and possibly Tyr and Torm as well) would have banded together to form a uber deity similar to Angharradh. Their combined rank would make them an overdeity as well - on par with Ao. |
| Alediran12-13-07, 11:17 AM | Alediran- I never said that wizards should be treated like that, nor even implied it. The simple fact is such a view of magic would not work overly well (at least in 3.5E) Faerun. I can only think of one, maybe two nations (and only some places there) where magic is frowned upon. I know you didn't. I just told you what would happen with a magic deity like the one you published. Most DMs love to screw Arcane Casters because they have troubles trying to counter their capabilities without crypling the character. I've seen and experience clasics like: your are imprisoned without equipement or spell components and as soon as you get out of prison everybody attacks you. Welcome to the great DMZ that never ends. Commoners band to kill wizards, even if they saved their lives without expecting something in return (a good character), because they consider magic an evil thing. And I could write a complete book with these kinds of situations. Having a godess like Mystra at least takes of the beaten to death "Commoner Mob with pitchforks and torches that join to kill a Wizard". What you call finesse is what I call apathy. You must have a rather broad scope for good aligned individuals. Mystra was squarely Neutral leaning toward good, but never good enough to actually -be- good despite how her alignment was printed. Mystra had very clear choices - she could have fought against the restrictions placed upon her or she could have accepted it. She chose the former, the changes you mention are cosmetic only. The Mystra should be stated as Lawful Good, since in BoED it's stated that LG people work to change the system from within instead of overthrowing it completely. That is what Mystra is now attempting to do, change the system in a slow and steady way because in the long run (at least if WoTC didn't killed her) it gives more benefits than what you would gain by throwing yourself in a rage. CG characters try to improve everything with one big stroke, LG characters do it step by step. Changing how the mage duel works does not justify a character to be good aligned. Fzoul could attempt to save a child from impending execution because he may have a soft spot for children, but that would not make him a good man. Mystra didn't change the Mageduel, she created it. Before her (Mystra I), most duels between Arcane casters where to death and they didn't had the options that the Mageduel allow them. This permits Good Arcane casters to duel without having to worry about killing their oponent. To be good aligned (or conversely evil aligned) it requires systematic actions, repeated, over the course of time. Those actions have to be consistent enough, and routine enough, where they affect how you view the world. Let's take a real world example: Martin Luther King Jr. The majority of people would perhaps give him either a neutral good or a chaotic good alignment. When people told him that the police were coming to arrest him for boycotting segregation, he didn't turn around and tell everyone: "Well the cops are coming we better pack up and obey the law." He defied the law in such a way that caused no harm to others. He jeopardized his freedom, and endangered his life (and in the end lost his life) to fight the laws of segregation. To my definition of alignment he would be Chaotic Good: people who try to change the world in a big strike. Midnight had a similar problem before her: She could have used the power she was granted to pursue goals that were amiable to her morals or she could accept the law as dictated to her by others. She chose the former. Because she saw that the greater good would've better server if she changed things inside the system instead of topling it and rebuilding it. There were options that Mystra could have pursued but chose not to pursue. For example: She could have extended her portfolios that would have enabled her even more freedom in her actions. She changed the rules to choose a Magister. Killing the Magister no longer gave you that position. She could have ordered her mortal servants to track down, and either convert or destroy evil aligned wizards. She could have developed a spell that would have allowed another wizard to cut another wizard off from the Weave. (Similar to being gentled in the Wheel of Time series.) This would have allowed her mortal servants to do what she could not do. Yes she did it: - Guardians of the Weave, a group of people who constantly fight against the threat of the Shadow Weave, they have developed spells to make holes in the SW. - Harpers, Mystra is one of the founder gods of the group and she still uses them to pursue Evil Spellcasters who go too far what is acceptable (hell, even LN Mystra I preffers to remove power from those Wizards who hoarded knowledge to themselves instead of giving it to others so the Art could grow) - Many independent Good spellcasters who follow Mystra and use their powers to fight evil spellcasters. However, here is one case in point where Mystra would have definitely fallen toward neutral and away from good. The Simbul wanted to defeat and destroy the Red Wizards once and for all. However, Mystra appeared to her and told her not to proceed. Why? Because the Red Wizards, through their enclaves are spreading magic. That was because the Red Wizards changed (or at least are trying) their ways from a conquering nation who hoarded magical power to Thay-Mart which, even if they use the enclaves to increase their money, is less destructive and spreads magic (something good, because the more people who understand magic the less hate they have) Now, to a neutral aligned or evil aligned deity this is a perfectly acceptable and rational frame of mind. However, to a good aligned Mystra? No. A good aligned Mystra would not be concerned with magic spreading, so much as what type of magic is spreading and who is spreading it. Read again what I said about the GotW, the Harpers and the Independen Wizards. She still preffers that non-destructive magic is spread insted of destructive, but she knows that if she tried to stop destructive magic from spreadin AO would take her godhood and give it to another who could be less interested in what kind of magic is spread. Belive me, if I could change governments, so they do what they are supposed to do, instead of what they actually do , I would. But there are limitations to it. Even a Godess with the power of Mystra has them. Remember what AO said to Cyric when he became a God: "You'll have all you wanted, except freedom, you'll be less free than before". Mystra out of all the deities the only one she had to truly fear was Ao. However, at the same time, if she even took a confrontational stance against him for the greater good, Ao would still be loathed to touch her. Why? Because of the other good aligned deities. Imagine how they would view Ao if he smote Mystra because she refused to be his willing puppet? Mystra would become a martyr and her sacrifice would never have been forgotten or forgiven. The rest of the gods would be even frigthened to overstep their atributions. AO has absolute power over the gods. As powerful as Ao is it is still annoying to have just about every deity in the Realms undermining you at every opportunity. He can only smite so many deities before they all simply band together and overthrow or imprison him. I am of the firm belief, however, that Lathander, Chauntea, Selune, Mystra and Ilmater (and possibly Tyr and Torm as well) would have banded together to form a uber deity similar to Angharradh. Their combined rank would make them an overdeity as well - on par with Ao. It's simple, AO strips them from their divinity before they attempt to do that. AO can kill every god in Realmspace with just a thought. He is beyond the reach of gods. He is almighty, all-knowing, all-seeing, etc. |
| MaskedOne12-13-07, 11:45 AM | Other than the good organizations Mystra helped create or did create, she also had various clergy going out adventuring specifically against magical threats to the common folk. There's a short story where Adon was sent to remove a curse from a town. Admittedly this was also enlightened self-interest, win the support of the people by fighting for them rather than ignoring them but it did happen. There is also a spell held by some Chosen and their agents in older editions that could be used to thoroughly screw over irresponsible magic users. Now it is possible that Mystra could have done more maybe much more to further her stated good alignment without violating the mandate of her portfolio or becoming a tyrant (the real reason she chose to accept the Circle's rules was that she decided that Toril's fate was for mortals to decide, not her), it's also possible that being in her possition for less than 50 years before WotC decided to kill her off that she just hadn't gotten around to it yet. She did a lot maybe not all she could but she wasn't completely inactive either. Crylin is well, interesting and certainly different from some that I've seen. I would not use the entity whole cloth. I might be tempted to say an interloper subsumed Mystra's remains gaining her power and memory along with a fragment of her mind and set Mystran faith up as a heresy within Crylin's faith caused by a conflict between the interloper's mind and the remains of Mystra with the surviving Chosen and some allies attempting to temper Crylin into something more like Mystra but that would require me to accept a set-up where Mystra dies or comes catastrophically close to it and I'm not really interested in doing so. |
| Meldread12-13-07, 01:37 PM | Alediran- - Guardians of the Weave, are a self interested group dedicated to fighting the Shadow Weave as they are servants of Mystra. This is in large part NOT because it's mostly 'bad guys' using it so much as it is self-invested interests. If the Shadow Weave spreads, Mystra loses power while her enemy Shar increases in power. The reasoning here is mostly selfish and not inherently good. - The Harpers are all servants of Mystra, nor are they servants of her church. They are allies and many of Mystra's Chosen (if not all) have close links to the Harpers. The Harper's goal is broader than that of Mystra's goal, and thus it is difficult to claim that Mystra is good simply based on a connection with them. - The fact that many independent spellcasters who are good aligned use their powers to battle evil wizards speaks nothing of Mystra. For one thing they are independent and are not Mystra herself. Second, it is their actions (battling evil wizards) which makes them good and is thus what is expected of them. It is the very thing Mystra does not do. Instead Mystra has supported the Red Wizards, and while they've seemingly given up their hopes on military conquest, they still have not given up their hopes on conquest. They have simply chosen a different method: controlling economies. The Red Wizards still harm the environment through the use of their weather altering magic, still keep slaves and are still very much thoroughly evil. Every purchase made at Thay-Mart is coin used to empower the things that good-aligned people should be fighting against. Mystra stopped the Simbul from destroying the Red Wizards, in large part based on selfish reasoning. The Red Wizards help spread magic, but what image are they portraying to the people and how are they using their gifts? They are showing everyone that wizards are power hungry individuals who if given the opportunity would enslave you. Overall, if you're the type of evil wizard like one of the Red Wizard's Mystra is happy with you. It's only when you become a psychopath (and therefore a danger to society) or when you horde arcane knowledge that Mystra grows angry with you. Even a Banite will hunt down psychopathic wizards, that does not make them good. I encourage you to begin naming the things that Mystra has done that makes her deserving of a good alignment. She's created the non-lethal mageduel. I don't see how that makes her good aligned, if for no other reason than having wizards dying is counter to what she wishes. (After all dead Wizard's cannot train new wizards and spread magic, thus further empowering her.) Changing the rules to become Magister also does not inherently make her good aligned. There needs to be a list of things Mystra has actively done to thwart evil aligned people, and make magic as a whole more inherently sided toward good. |
| GreenKnight12-13-07, 04:46 PM | I read Crucible. It was an enjoyable read. However, of the two deities that got taught a lesson, I feel that only Kelemvor took it to heart. Midnight was still defiant. Even if she doesn't outwardly state "Magic should be used for good deeds." she tacitly approves of this in that she no longer accepts evil clerics. Clerics who were evil and part of her church before her accension are allowed to recieve spells, but she's not taking any new evil clerics. How does that affect anything? What matters is that she grants equal access to the Weave to any who want it. Who she does and doesn't accept as a worshipper is immaterial. For instance, Jergal didn't take good Clerics, and Kelemvor does. Yet Jergal was a successful God of Death. Likewise, did the old Mystra accept Chaotic Neutral Clerics? Just guessing, but I'd say no. Who you accept as a Cleric of your faith has no bearing on what kind of job you're doing as a god. |
| 18DELTA12-14-07, 11:34 AM | -Just once. So Cyric and Shar did your dirty work this time huh?;) You may want to put them on your payroll. Or get them a vacation in the Bahamas, or somewhere else.:P |
| Lord Karsus12-14-07, 12:20 PM | So Cyric and Shar did your dirty work this time huh?;) You may want to put them on your payroll. Or get them a vacation in the Bahamas, or somewhere else.:P -Hells no! I want nothing to do with them- Cyric, no way, Shar, maybe. -But, their killing of Mystra was in no way related to this aspect, or any of my aspects. |
| captaincarot12-14-07, 01:24 PM | why is it every time i read a thread on mystras death, i get the urge to go find a flaming torch and a pitch fork and go get the evil people who did it? :hoppingma |
| Storm_Silverhand12-14-07, 05:01 PM | Heya, Crylin Greater Deity Portfolios: Magic, Temptation, Lust, Illusions, Power, Trickery, Irony Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Wow. That's a pretty interesting deity you have there, Meldread. Unfortunately I don't think shi will ever see the light of day in any setting published by Wizards. It's just too risky a concept - a gender bender that is openly a gender bender coupled with hir advocacy of mind altering drugs means that this ship is simply not going to sail on this sea, I'm afraid. :( (That's why the gender bending aspect of Corellon got played down.) Anyway, going through your write up, shi sounds like shi has evil tendancies, plus shi also seems to have too much overlap with Sharess (the lust part of hir portfolio does it, I am not sure it's necessary... Maybe you could replace it with something else - psychadelia, for example, or mind altering drugs... definitely BoVD/BoED fare in any event). I am sure with a bit more thought you could do more to differentiate Sharess and Crylin. |
| Meldread12-14-07, 06:08 PM | Thanks Storm, I came up with Crylin in about three minutes. I just asked: "What would be interesting that hasn't been over done yet?" The first thing that popped in my head was Corellon and his gender bending nature being repressed. Then I thought of more ancient pantheistic religions where some deities (in particular creator deities - such as Corellon) often embodied male and female aspects. I added that as part of Crylin's personality, made up the name, and then started listing portfolios that seemed to run counter to the idea of "magic". After that I spent about 10 minutes trying to get into the minds of those who would worship Crylin, and what makes Crylin different from all the other deities, as well as how to weave all those portfolios together. I also wanted a deity that could mesh well with a lot of different deities, both good and evil, that was easy to understand on the surface, but also capable of deep levels of complexity. Additionally, I wanted "gray area" and a real focus on the deities chaotic nature - so I injected that bit about mind altering drugs. From a modern stand point such a view on drugs might raise concerns, but in many ancient cultures around the world (and even some modern cultures) view mind altering drugs as a religious experience. So it was interesting to explore the line: Where does a religious experience end and it become abuse? Not only abuse on the part of the user, but on the part of those handing out the drugs. ---- As a side note, I have actually come up with an interesting way to inject the deity into the 4E Setting without changing any established lore. After Cyric was imprisoned he was cut off from the world. In order to sustain himself he needed a way to funnel divine power back to him in his prison. So he found a suitable "host" and injected that host with some of his divine essence, along with portions of the essence he had taken within himself after killing Mystra and Leira. Hence how Crylin has the portfolios of magic and illusion. Before this happened, Crylin was a powerful outsider who was nearly a demigod of temptation, lust and power. (I am envisioning Crylin as being some type of special succubus, in that he/she would not have a defined gender nor would s/he be inherently good or evil.) Crylin would then have been lured to Cyric through one method or another, perhaps one of his mortal servants, and then infused with some of his divine essence. Crylin would not know nor remember this encounter, but during the infusion process Cyric would have inadvertently infused Crylin with a small fraction of Mystra and Leira. Crylin would likely have strange memories that do not belong to him/her, memories that once belonged to Mystra / Leira. Sometimes s/he may take on personality traits that were once native to those deities. As well Crylin may experience "whispering thoughts" the voices of Mystra and Leira trying to speak to Crylin, but due to the "loose connection" between the deities such "whispers" would be weak and difficult to understand. It could pave the way for the return of Mystra, Leira or both. Perhaps even a tripartite deity - a single deity with three different "faces". |
| halaster5357912-17-07, 06:37 PM | i hope darkeyes mystra comes back, or mysteras energy goes back to that other goddess, i forget her name.. Shars archenemy. what if elminster or Symbul becomes the god\ess of magic? |
| Lord Karsus12-17-07, 08:02 PM | i hope darkeyes mystra comes back, or mysteras energy goes back to that other goddess, i forget her name.. Shars archenemy. what if elminster or Symbul becomes the god\ess of magic? -Technically, since Cyric killed Mystra, he is the legitimate heir apparent to the portfolio of magic. |
| Karsus the Mad12-18-07, 12:50 AM | -Technically, since Cyric killed Mystra, he is the legitimate heir apparent to the portfolio of magic. Maybe they could somehow work in the divinity Karsus stole. That's pure Mystryl-essence. By all rights, that remnant should get first dibs on the portfolio of magic. |
| Lord Karsus12-18-07, 12:56 AM | Maybe they could somehow work in the divinity Karsus stole. That's pure Mystryl-essence. By all rights, that remnant should get first dibs on the portfolio of magic. -It's ours! It's ours and they wants it. The tricksy Mystryl wants what is ours. Gollum! Gollum! |
| WraithCaller87612-29-07, 09:21 PM | i hope darkeyes mystra comes back, or mysteras energy goes back to that other goddess, i forget her name.. Shars archenemy. what if elminster or Symbul becomes the god\ess of magic? -Technically, since Cyric killed Mystra, he is the legitimate heir apparent to the portfolio of magic. Ugh! Each candidate is worse than the next! If this is the future of magic in the realms, I'm moving to Eberron or becoming a Fighter! But on the serious side, I never liked Midnight either. No matter how 'neutral' she acted, she still always gave me that lingering feeling of "yeah, we kinda have a good-aligned god of magic..." I would much rather have a single, neutral, aloof god of magic who delegates the actual management tasks to a host of lesser deities representing the various divisions of mages and magic-users (perhaps the spell schools?) while the god themself maintains the power and decants it as per the requests of these lesser gods. |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 12:39 PM | But on the serious side, I never liked Midnight either. No matter how 'neutral' she acted, she still always gave me that lingering feeling of "yeah, we kinda have a good-aligned god of magic..." I would much rather have a single, neutral, aloof god of magic who delegates the actual management tasks to a host of lesser deities representing the various divisions of mages and magic-users (perhaps the spell schools?) while the god themself maintains the power and decants it as per the requests of these lesser gods. -The we just have a rip-off of Boccob (Sp?). Although, it's probably a necessary evil. -Personally, if it were up to me, there would be no deity of magic, per se. Magic simply is. It is a metaphysical entity. You then have various deities, who represent the different schools and thoughts of magic, who draw from this source to grant magic to mortals. -Wow. 13,000th post, now. 1000 posts in a week or two. I need a life...:embarrass |
| WraithCaller87612-30-07, 04:57 PM | -The we just have a rip-off of Boccob (Sp?). Although, it's probably a necessary evil. -Personally, if it were up to me, there would be no deity of magic, per se. Magic simply is. It is a metaphysical entity. You then have various deities, who represent the different schools and thoughts of magic, who draw from this source to grant magic to mortals. -Wow. 13,000th post, now. 1000 posts in a week or two. I need a life...:embarrass Well that's pretty much what I am saying, only I still think there would need to be some sort of semi-divine entity of some sort that maintains the power in whatever new form it may take. Otherwise, what's to stop people like you from becoming gods and raising all sorts of hell among the other deities? Almost like a Mini-Ao. It doesn't actively involve itself with mortals and doesn't grant spells, but it makes sure the lesser gods under its watch do their job... |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 10:28 PM | Otherwise, what's to stop people like you from becoming gods and raising all sorts of hell among the other deities? -Ao. That's one of his jobs. |
| Greater_Annihilator12-30-07, 11:19 PM | I'll admit I've been behind in lore for a bit due to RL responsibilities, but I have been pretty up to date on the novels. So with Shar doing all this movin' and shakin' with the Shadow Weave, the Shadow Wars, killing Mystra, etc... What has her foil of a sister, Selune, been up to? Still running that pub in the comic book series? |
| Karsus the Mad12-30-07, 11:22 PM | Huh..still not used to my new avatar. I thought I posted the above there for a minute:embarrass Selune has been busy. There's simply no evidence, or even suggestion if she has actually been busy. At least she's had to been busy doing nothing, if nothing else has taken up her time. |
| Greater_Annihilator12-30-07, 11:34 PM | Huh..still not used to my new avatar. I thought I posted the above there for a minute:embarrass Selune has been busy. There's simply no evidence, or even suggestion if she has actually been busy. At least she's had to been busy doing nothing, if nothing else has taken up her time. So just hangin' at Selune's Smile then? I'd think she'd want to be more involved in her sister's business... |
| The_Shaman12-31-07, 07:58 AM | Well that's pretty much what I am saying, only I still think there would need to be some sort of semi-divine entity of some sort that maintains the power in whatever new form it may take.. You know, that sounds a lot like the original Mystra herself - not exactly a deity as much as a manifestation of the Weave with some DRs. |
| Kenzuki12-31-07, 11:32 AM | Huh..still not used to my new avatar. I thought I posted the above there for a minute:embarrass Selune has been busy. There's simply no evidence, or even suggestion if she has actually been busy. At least she's had to been busy doing nothing, if nothing else has taken up her time. I like your new avatar personally. It has an otherworldly look to it. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 11:49 AM | -I can't tell what the hell it is. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 12:09 PM | -I can't tell what the hell it is. ;) At least I have a discernable face:cool: |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 12:22 PM | -Oh, that's a Humanoid. I thought it was like, a bunch of feathers or something. |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 12:25 PM | A bunch of feathers...with a FACE....and a STAFF. So HA at you:pbbbtt: |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 12:30 PM | -Whatever. Do you have a glowing crystal? No, I didn't think so. |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 12:34 PM | That's because I don't need to rely on a crystal ball thingy to see. I have eyes. Big eyes.:bigeyes: to see really far:shocked: and to blink with:blink: and to do this:crazy: with. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 12:37 PM | -Do you wanna know what I have underneath this hood? Really, really? Hm? Hm? |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 12:46 PM | Is it this (http://s204.photobucket.com/albums/bb64/daikingp/ugly/prod_228_5900.jpg)? Oh, wait. I remember now. I even took a piccy of you when you last changed robes. Here (http://pimpimg.myyearbook.com/usercontent/fast/pimp_images/Images/Funny/1_ugly_people.jpg) |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 12:52 PM | -First, he're a live-action picture of LK: http://www.oohyeahzone.com/collection/cb/jawa-updated-3.jpg |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 01:02 PM | That's...that's just so adorably cute!!! But it still doesn't show what's under the hood. But don't worry. It's not the gross factor that matters, it's how many small children run from you. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 01:17 PM | That's...that's just so adorably cute!!! But it still doesn't show what's under the hood. But don't worry. It's not the gross factor that matters, it's how many small children run from you. -Here, here's a picture of my beautiful self. I very large picture, if I do say so myself. Must be my ego! :D: http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj240/Dagnirion/DSC00138.jpg -Note, I've been growing my beard and moustache a little more. |
| Jack_Hartwig12-31-07, 01:29 PM | My two cents
The Goddess of Magic always dies when DnD gets a significant edition change. Its a plot device used to justify why the magic system changed. As far as replacements Mystyl dies because of Karsus but selects a replacement ahead of time and Mystra becomes Goddess of Magic within seconds and creates a NEW weave. Mystra dies during the Time of Trouble but selects Midnight as a replacement with OverGod Ao confirming the appointment. This does not happen right away but waits until the end of the Time of Trouble. Also because of the Time of Trouble other Gods have permanently or temporarily taken the portfolio of another Gods. So you have several ways for replacement. The Goddess arranges her replacement. Ao selects her replacement. Another God takes over her portfolio. As far as the Goddess of Magic being next to Ao in power, thats both yes and no. You would think that normally but there are severe restrictions. She cant cut off another Gods use of magic in total (See Trial of the Mad God.) or Ao will call her to the carpet for not promoting the use of magic. Even if it means her death she can't prevent significant magic from being used. Remember the Goddess can tell when magic is performed two weeks ahead of the event. Since she is part of the Weave, what damages the Weave damages her. This is the one and only portfolio that gives a God a limited but unknown lifespan. That is why the Goddess of Magic has created Chosen and spread some of her power among them. They act like buffers and extends her lifespan. She would burn out faster without them. And technically Gods can be brought back as long as you know the right method. Remember when Finder went to Sigil and saw the bodies of all the dead Gods? He explained that they could be brought back but the ceremony for each one was individualized. Although, I do not see that happening. |
| Storm_Silverhand12-31-07, 07:38 PM | Heya, Jack - Rich Baker has pretty much nixed the idea of another Mystra. With 4th Edition, the Weave will be a thing of the past, and magic will work a completely different way. We might see another deity of magic, but he or she will be nothing like Mystra in terms of power or scope... |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 10:31 PM | Rich Baker has pretty much nixed the idea of another Mystra. Thank you my dearest Storm for making me want to curl up and cry. |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 10:52 PM | Is that really you LK? Damn.... I always thought you were a short, fat, bald little dude like Danny Devito. Well, I learn new things every day. I love being a Karsus... Btw: Take that damned baseball cap off. Baseball is brain damaging. Being near even a token representation of it will cause permanent genetic dumbatude to all offspring. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 01:24 PM | We might see another deity of magic, but he or she will be nothing like Mystra in terms of power or scope... -That is one thing I can get behind. While I'm rather neutal concerning Mystra, and would rather have her/the Weave than not having her/the Weave, I never a big fan of the idea that "Mystra was almost as powerful as Ao, needed to distribute her divine power in the Chosen, etc.". Is that really you LK? Damn.... I always thought you were a short, fat, bald little dude like Danny Devito. Well, I learn new things every day. -No, while I may be short (relativley, compared to other Americans, who are generally taller, anyway), I am not fat and/or bald. I love being a Karsus... -As do I. :) Btw: Take that damned baseball cap off. Baseball is brain damaging. Being near even a token representation of it will cause permanent genetic dumbatude to all offspring. -You're lucky that you are my tripartite aspect, 'cause if you weren't! -I was actually almost born at a baseball game. A playoff game, to boot. -And, no, I will not take my baseball cap off. I always wear it when I go outside. You know how people wear armbands around their arm, to denote solidarity in the face of some sort of crisis, emergency or travesty? I wear my baseball cap in such a way. Los Angeles, my ass. |
| Karsus the Mad01-01-08, 02:45 PM | -That is one thing I can get behind. While I'm rather neutal concerning Mystra, and would rather have her/the Weave than not having her/the Weave, I never a big fan of the idea that "Mystra was almost as powerful as Ao, needed to distribute her divine power in the Chosen, etc.". I'd rather there not be a deity of magic (well, I wished they didn't off Mystra...again). After killing off two (and having a third one die in the distant past), it's gotten rather pathetic. If they bring back Mystra, you know that somewhere down the line they'll just kill her off again. It'd also cheapen, yet more so, her most recent death. And if they replace her with another deity of magic, you can bet people will complain about it not being Mystra. They'd prolly kill that one off as well somewhere down the road. Being deity of Magic in FR is a sure fire way of having a short life span. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 02:53 PM | -Like I said before, I don't think that there should be a magic deity anymore. Magic/The Weave simply is. It's the fabiric of reality. It neccesarily doesn't have to have a 'persona',either. A powerful, entirely neutral metaphysical entity that is, always was, and always will be. |
| Dark Wizard01-01-08, 03:28 PM | Maybe treat Magic like one of those Cosmic beings in the Marvelverse. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 03:35 PM | -They have a lot of interaction, though. I mean, every other friggin' person and their mother has been the Phoenix at one point, now. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-01-08, 04:47 PM | I read Crucible. It was an enjoyable read. However, of the two deities that got taught a lesson, I feel that only Kelemvor took it to heart. Midnight was still defiant. Even if she doesn't outwardly state "Magic should be used for good deeds." she tacitly approves of this in that she no longer accepts evil clerics. Clerics who were evil and part of her church before her accension are allowed to recieve spells, but she's not taking any new evil clerics. I'm not really sure (even after jus reading his entry to confrinm what you just said) that Kel Actually "learned" that lesson.In his entry says that his clerics turn undead instead of rebuking which means that they use possitive energy and thefore can't be evil. Or tha's an exeptcion to the rule(like paladins of Sune)? Also I don't think Paladin of Kel would like a church that allows Evil Clerics, specially when they can order him around. ( but God know I can use that as a Advrturing Hook :D) |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 06:02 PM | Maybe treat Magic like one of those Cosmic beings in the Marvelverse.I thought thats what Mystra already was? :confused: Magic Incarnate. On a related note, Ed's 'musings' in The Annotated Elminster are VERY interesting - I don't know if his word is still considered law in a 4e universe (it used to be, as part of his contract), but he claims that Mystra arose from Human worship, which kind of goes against the myths surrounding the War of Light and Darkness. Personally, I like Ed's take better, because it explains why she appears in human form, and acts very human. If she pre-dated humanity as the myths suggest, then it seems she should be much more of an 'alien entity' the she comes off as. Of course, we know that she has been replaced by humans at least twice, and may have been replaced numerous times in the past, even by other races, so the myths about the original Mystryl don't really apply to the modern incarnation. I kind of like the idea that there may have been an Elven Mystryl at some point thousands of years ago. :) |
| Dark Wizard01-01-08, 06:05 PM | I thought thats what Mystra already was? :confused: Magic Incarnate. She is. Yet it seems many don't see it, realize it or acknowledge it. Not even the designers to some extent. |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 06:41 PM | Well, like usual, the designers got it WRONG. :P Gods like Chauntee, Mystra, Shar, even Selūne, should be 'primordial powers' - living embodiments of the forces they represent. The rest are merely... deities. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 08:09 PM | If she pre-dated humanity as the myths suggest, then it seems she should be much more of an 'alian entity' the she comes off as. -Don't forget, though, that that was Mystryl, and not Mystra. Mystryl, we don't know too much about. Mystra, we know a great deal about, first and foremost that she is/was Mystryl influenced by two once-mortal Humans. In other words, Mystra isn't going to be 'alien-like', because she isn't alien. |
| Karsus the Mad01-01-08, 08:21 PM | Don't forget, both Mystras were mortal. The first Mystra came into being only because what was left of Mystryl "fell" into a human girl.... |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 08:39 PM | -Almost exactly what I said. Karsus thinks alike. |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 11:16 PM | Which is also kind of what I said at the end of my statement. :rolleyes: I guess maybe that makes me... the missing Karse stone! :eek: PS - Why is it I only spot my spelling mistakes when someone quotes me? :confused: |
| XHereticX01-01-08, 11:26 PM | Personally, I think that the utter and irreplaceble demise of Mystra and the Weave means that an element that has defined the Realms for decades has been laid to rest. R.I.P Mystra, you will be missed in my heart. Anyway, this would be a good opportunity to see the magic of Faerun develop in unique new ways and personally I am looking forward to the prospects. I admit it would be fun seeing Karsus becoming the the new god of magic and having epic level spells accessable to low level mages and spells go out of control and have wild magic properties. Or maybe Shar becomes the new magic deity and the Art becomes a dark and twisted practice whose sole purpose is the domination and manipulation of other. In essence, magic becomes the enemy. Heck, what I would really like to see is a Uvuudaum from the Far Realm come to Toril, absorb what is left of Mystra's power, and masquerede as her, giving people the facade that Mystra has been reborn while slowly plunging Toril to its doom. All in all, the possibilities are endless. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 11:35 PM | Personally, I think that the utter and irreplaceble demise of Mystra and the Weave means that an element that has defined the Realms for decades has been laid to rest. R.I.P Mystra, you will be missed in my heart. -Agreed. Many of the people who never even liked Mystra (ie, me!) feel that losing Mystra/The Weave is like losing one of the factors that make the Realms the Realms. Losing a deity like...Valkur (no offense, Valkur), is one thing, but Mystra? |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 03:40 AM | It seems Ao finally tired of Mystra's attempts to "goodify" magic :P. In my mind, magic being synonymous with potentiality and possibility, should be and remain solidly neutrally-aligned. By association, a deity of magic, really the caretaker and guardian of magic, should be neutral as well. I'm indifferent to the demise of Mystra, but the Realms have lost a unique personage. If anything, this may be a chance to bring back a new Mystra who is actually N; a N Mystra would be infinitely better. The Weave is a premise and concept unique to the Realms, it's saddening to see it go if it does go; hopefully this is not the case. If they wish to develop it further, they could integrate deific "concepts" into the Weave itself, making it both conduit and caretaker of magic in the world - it's essentially a deity of magic as the Weave with no sentience. Hopefully, the Weave can function irrespective of the death of Mystra. There would be still be repercussions though, quite severe ones - namely dead magic areas, wild magic areas, spells behaving erratically, spellwards and enchantments collapsing. Perhaps as bad as the loss sustained when Karsus cast that fateful spell and during the Time of Troubles. |
| Stigger01-02-08, 06:44 AM | Was under the distinct impression that the Weave was permanently gone from the designer/developer stuff I've read. They seemed pretty adamant about Mystra being perma-dead as well. Really, its the main reason I have just about zero interest in the 4e Realms. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 06:53 AM | Re the destruction/dissolution of the Weave: That's pretty asinine. It's what separated the Forgotten Realms from the other CSs. Re Mystra's demise: I'm still indifferent. |
| Lord Karsus01-02-08, 08:06 AM | -Well, Mystra is an incarnation of the Weave and all, so... |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 08:08 AM | No, Mystra was an incarnation of the Weave. My point is that there needn't be a deity of magic per se. The Weave by itself would do, but they're getting/have gotten rid of it, so it's moot point. |
| Lord Karsus01-02-08, 08:12 AM | No, Mystra was an incarnation of the Weave. My point is that there needn't be a deity of magic per se. The Weave by itself would do, but they're getting/have gotten rid of it, so it's moot point. -As it's not 1385 DR yet, she still is. |
| Alediran01-02-08, 08:15 AM | No, Mystra was an incarnation of the Weave. My point is that there needn't be a deity of magic per se. The Weave by itself would do, but they're getting/have gotten rid of it, so it's moot point. It's already been stated that Mystra/the Weave is the same thing, kill one and you kill both. You can't have a coin with only one side. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 08:16 AM | I was responding to the OP and the pertinent statement "Mystra has been killed." And subsequent comments that stated that Mystra had been killed off (all with the past tense). You can't claim that it's not yet 1385 DR when some have already factored that in, namely the designers. Besides, Mystra's death is inexorable and I've already accounted for inevitability. |
| Stigger01-02-08, 08:17 AM | You probably could have a one-sided coin in some bizarre metaphysical construct... particularly if you'd had enough intoxicants beforehand... |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 08:18 AM | It's already been stated that Mystra/the Weave is the same thing, kill one and you kill both. You can't have a coin with only one side. Where was that stated? I seem to recall that Mystra was the guardian/caretaker of the Weave and had much power over it, but not absolute power, ie she could not deny elves from the Weave, but Corellon could. |
| Alediran01-02-08, 08:21 AM | Where was that stated? I seem to recall that Mystra was the guardian/caretaker of the Weave and had much power over it, but not absolute power, ie she could not deny elves from the Weave, but Corellon could. She can deny anyone she wants (except for SW users). The Weave is Mystra's body. That is the condition for her power. She is all powerfull but has a severe weakness, she must constantly maintain the Weave or she'll die. |
| Lord Karsus01-02-08, 08:22 AM | You can't claim that it's not yet 1385 DR when some have already factored that in, namely the designers. Besides, Mystra's death is inexorable and I've already accounted for inevitability. -The current year is 1375 DR. I didn't claim that Mystra's death could be reversed/stopped, either. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 08:36 AM | She can deny anyone she wants (except for SW users). The Weave is Mystra's body. That is the condition for her power. She is all powerfull but has a severe weakness, she must constantly maintain the Weave or she'll die. Is this conjecture on your part? It seems that Faiths and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars disagrees with you. She has her own body, separate from the Weave. And she isn't all powerful, I distinctly remember that she couldn't deny access to elves or the peoples of Mulhorand because they were drawing their magic from different conduits, namely Corellon and the Seldarine and Thoth respectively. And, again, could you pull up a page reference? -The current year is 1375 DR. Not for those who are using the past tense. I didn't claim that Mystra's death could be reversed/stopped, either. I never claimed that you claimed so. |
| Lord Karsus01-02-08, 08:39 AM | Not for those who are using the past tense. -The canon year is 1375 DR, going on 1376 DR. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 08:41 AM | You still seem to be missing the point and misunderstand. I was referring to the comments made by people addressing Mystra using the past tense and explaining her demise and the Weave's dissolution. |
| XHereticX01-02-08, 08:55 AM | Is this conjecture on your part? It seems that Faiths and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars disagrees with you. She has her own body, separate from the Weave. And she isn't all powerful, I distinctly remember that she couldn't deny access to elves or the peoples of Mulhorand because they were drawing their magic from different conduits, namely Corellon and the Seldarine and Thoth respectively. And, again, could you pull up a page reference? Not for those who are using the past tense. I never claimed that you claimed so. No, she could deny access to magic to ANYONE on Faerun that drew using the weave as a conduit. The elves were only exempt with Elven High Magic (drew from the energies of the old elven homeworld as I recall), but they weren't if they used anything else, and I don't recall the Mulhorandi being left out of that rule for any reason. Mystra also apparently didn't have any influence on other continents either but that may change with 4e. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 09:06 AM | Interesting, but I remember otherwise. Must be a 2e thing. |
| XHereticX01-02-08, 09:09 AM | Interesting, but I remember otherwise. Must be a 2e thing. Whatever, ask GothicDan if you need anything elaborated on the elves, he will give you more than you need. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 09:24 AM | I'm quite capable of finding out for myself. And I'm pretty sure it was in one of the books or novels concerning the elves, perhaps Elves of Evermeet, but admittedly that one may be biased. |
| Alediran01-02-08, 09:28 AM | I'm quite capable of finding out for myself. And I'm pretty sure it was in one of the books or novels concerning the elves, perhaps Elves of Evermeet, but admittedly that one may be biased. You could be confused by Elminster in Myth Drannor, where some elves said that Corellon is the TRUE god of magic and not that "hairy monkey's godess Mystra". |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 09:30 AM | No, pretty sure I'm not. The sentence I was remembering was that elves were inherently of the Weave. |
| XHereticX01-02-08, 09:31 AM | No, pretty sure I'm not. The sentence I was remembering was that elves were inherently of the Weave. Um, they have a high attunement to the Weave yes, but you have to remember they are intelopers (like most of the races of Faerun are anyway) |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 09:44 AM | Pretty sure I wasn't misremembering, but I could be mistaken. I'll need to find the relevant passages again. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-02-08, 02:19 PM | In page 247 of FRCS it reads; "Essentially Mystra IS the Weave" |
| MarkusTay6301-02-08, 02:42 PM | If you read Ed's musing in tAE, which I am currently doing, Ed had always held that Mystra IS the Weave. Some of the designers in 1e/2e got it incorrect, and assumed she was merely it's caretaker. If you recall, there was some problems with exactly who controlled what at what point, and the Celestial Emperor, Fate, and Maztica were all considered Overgods on the same level as AO. This sort of 'divine overlapping' got ret-conned out (or rather, clarified) in 3e, where it is CLEARLY stated that Mystra IS the Weave. The other problem that arose later in 3e was with the Shadoweave, which originally was stated to be seperate from Mystra's Weave and able to stand on it's own. However, in 3.5 it was re-affirmed that the Shadoweave CANNOT exist without Mystra's Weave, as per statements made in the new super-modules. Mystra is gone, and so is the Weave, apparently for good (as long as 4e Realms are a success). Different gods may be in charge of individual 'styles' of magic (spell schools are also gone), but the designers have clearly stated that there will be NO high-god of magic in 4e. -Agreed. Many of the people who never even liked Mystra (ie, me!) feel that losing Mystra/The Weave is like losing one of the factors that make the Realms the Realms. Losing a deity like...Valkur (no offense, Valkur), is one thing, but Mystra?This is precisely how I feel, as well. There are plenty of things in the Realms that aren't to my taste, but I wouldn't get rid of them just because I don't personally care for them. I would have to have some sort of monstrous over-inflated ego to think that my own personal view of the Realms should be forced upon everyone else. ;) |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-02-08, 08:34 PM | Ah, must be all that ret-conning that went around. |
| Kenzuki01-02-08, 08:51 PM | Retcon needs to become a God in 4th Edition with all that power there.... |
| Dark Wizard01-02-08, 10:01 PM | Retcon needs to become a God in 4th Edition with all that power there.... Retcon (the Great Remaker) is killing a bunch of gods and taking their stuff, ala the catch phrase of 4E's design philosophy. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 12:11 AM | Retcon needs to become a God in 4th Edition with all that power there.... Retcon That Which Always Was, The Great Remaker Greater Deity Symbol: An leather-bound history book in a red circle with a slash running diagonally through it, from top left to bottom right. Home Plane: P.O. Box 707, Renton, WA, 98057 Alignment: TN Portfolio: Change, Memory, Loss, Addition Domains: Meh... Worshippers: 2e apologists, 3e apologists, 4e apologists Aliases: Richard Baker, Bruce Cordell, Chris Perkins Cleric Alignments: All Favored Weapon: Pen |
| Stigger01-03-08, 01:28 AM | :rofl: Nicely statted there LK. :D |
| sfdragon01-03-08, 02:36 AM | that was good Lord Karsus. now do one for yourself |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 03:03 AM | now do one for yourself -I already have stats in Powers and Pantheons. That was before the dawn of the internet, though. I've changed a bit since then. |
| Mr_Miscellany01-03-08, 04:04 AM | Retcon That Which Always Was, The Great Remaker Greater Deity Symbol: An leather-bound history book in a red circle with a slash running diagonally through it, from top left to bottom right. Home Plane: P.O. Box 707, Renton, WA, 98057 Alignment: TN Portfolio: Change, Memory, Loss Domains: Meh... Worshippers: 2e apologists, 3e apologists, 4e apologists Aliases: Richard Baker, Bruce Cordell, Chris Perkins Cleric Alignments: All Favored Weapon: Pen Karsus, you are an Epic-Level jerk. But even I have to admit that was damn funny. |
| Karsus the Mad01-03-08, 08:47 AM | Karsus, you are an Epic-Level jerk. But even I have to admit that was damn funny. It's the hubris portfolio;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 09:41 AM | That WAS hilarious, Karsus. :rofl: |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 11:45 AM | Karsus, you are an Epic-Level jerk. -Me? Nah... -How so? |
| The_Shaman01-03-08, 09:25 PM | ... Portfolio: Change, Memory, Loss :detect: Ah, the portfolio of loss - curious, quite curious. And memory, as well - or the absence of memory, this also fits. I was wondering why Shar was riding roughshod over the Realms - it appears she's had this Retcon as an ally all along. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 12:16 AM | -Indeed. |
| XHereticX01-04-08, 08:10 PM | Hilarious, except the alignment should be LE and should be an Overdeity:D |
| MarkusTay6301-04-08, 08:27 PM | Yes, very nice LK, I rather like that god. :D Not particularly fond of his portfolio, though... :rolleyes: Retcon (the Great Remaker) is killing a bunch of gods and taking their stuff, ala the catch phrase of 4E's design philosophy.Correction: He killed The Realms and took it's stuff. ;) |
| Dzwood01-05-08, 12:40 AM | Ahmen |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 05:28 PM | Not particularly fond of his portfolio, though... :rolleyes: -Hey, those are the elements of a retcon. |
| Dark Wizard01-05-08, 11:02 PM | Correction: He killed The Realms and took it's stuff. ;) I want to see The Realms burst out of Retcon in 5. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 12:07 AM | I want to see The Realms burst out of Retcon in 5. -They might just. :cool: |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 12:27 AM | -I already have stats in Powers and Pantheons. That was before the dawn of the internet, though. I've changed a bit since then. One would hope so, as I'm looking at it right now, and it doesn't paint a very flattering picture of you. KARSUS (DEAD) The Momentary God, the Archwizard Demipower of the Prime Material Plane, N Portfolio: Folly of overweening arrogance and ambition, unending hubris Eric Boyd doesn't seem to be all that fond of you if he wrote that. BTW: It also says you're fat and like to wear women's underwear. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 12:29 AM | Eric Boyd doesn't seem to be all that fond of you if he wrote that. -We had a little...'misunderstanding' back in the day. Seriously, how was I supposed to know that that was his sister? |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 12:57 AM | - Seriously, how was I supposed to know that that was his sister? Oww, that's a low blow Karsus:rolleyes: Have you now lost ability to distinguish man from beast? |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 01:01 AM | Oww, that's a low blow Karsus:rolleyes: Have you now lost ability to distinguish man from beast? -Calling his sister (if he has one) a beast? Now, that's a low blow. |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 01:10 AM | -Calling his sister (if he has one) a beast? Now, that's a low blow. O how low canst thou go?:P |
| sfdragon01-06-08, 02:01 AM | oh good grief |
| Dzwood01-06-08, 02:30 AM | So I showed this thread to a co-worker of mine and we ended up tossing around a few ideas. I was hoping to get your thoughts on them. After all most of you are better D&D/Realms scholars than I am. We plan on using this idea in 4e so we might have to tweek a few things. So Mystra is dead no way to change that, at least no according to cannon. So lets say that Midnight survives in some form. I was thinking that she may have hidden her physical body in the Realms somewhere and placed it in stasis. She could then have instructed her followers to prepare for an eventual crisis to hide re sources and money and such. All of this would happen well before her murder. I think all practical gods should have a contingency plan. So Mystra is gone and the entity that was Midnight remains as some former god archwizard spirit type person. I see her keeping all her wizard levels and maybe gaining something like what her former chosen had. I think she should keep a connection to the source of all magic. Since magic will change I think it should be a more instinctual connection like Sorcerers have so we might give her a few levels of that. Oh and she will be hot!! Duah!!! Magic= sexy She would head up a organization so super secret that it makes the harpers look like the local PD. Lets call them The Angles of Midnight. Look I am no good at naming things just run with it!! The angles will do what Midnight as Mystra could not do. Hunt down and destroy magic users who are irresponsible and dangerous to the Realms. Maybe even just plain old evil one will be targeted too!! To a lesser extent they will spread knowledge and understanding of magic to the common people. Perhaps protect magic users if the 4e Realms becomes unfriendly to Arcane users. They will also work in secret to oppose Shar and Cyric. Hey everyone can hold a grudge right?!?!?!?!?! The Angles will be made up of arcane magic users of all types, clerics of Mystras former allies who might still support her. The occasional assassin and bard and other adventuresome types. Not to mention any of her original followers who are still around. Maybe the groups could even be shepherded by one of the surviving Chosen, they would make a good Parental figure. Midnight is not worshiped and can grant no spells. However she retains many of her memories and much of her knowledge from her time as Goddess of Magic. She uses this to guide and teach her followers forgotten spells or lead them to old caches of treasure and artifacts ect. Id like to see Midnight only ever contact her followers via magic and messages so she can remain safe from her enemies. Perhaps she is being shielded by one of her godly allies. Or maybe even the newly neutral Mask!! I would also expect more emphasis on sorcerers in the Angles since magic has changed so much. These are just some thoughts I had and I would love some help flushing this out. In a few months I am going to be taking over much of my groups DMing responsibility and I think this would be a great idea. But I have never put together an entire campaign by myself so I sure could use some help. I think this would be a great way to get rid of a goddess of magic but keep an Old Friend Dizzy- |
| Storm_Silverhand01-06-08, 02:43 AM | So I showed this thread to a co-worker of mine and we ended up tossing around a few ideas. I was hoping to get your thoughts on them. After all most of you are better D&D/Realms scholars than I am. <snip> I think this would be a great way to get rid of a goddess of magic but keep an Old Friend Dizzy- *blinks* Sorry, I kept being distracted by the use of the word "Angles" when you clearly meant "Angels". *ahem* Anyway... I found your idea quite interesting, and I think it will work quite well. Don't let canon stop you from doing whatever you please to the Realms. There are many Realms and not all are identical. I've heard that in some people's games, the Time of Troubles never happened. My Realms began to diverge right at the start of 3rd Edition... The Shadow Weave doesn't exist in my Realms, and Shade never returned. Come 4th Ed, the Spellplague won't happen, Mystra won't die, and the whole soap opera between Tyr, Tymora, Helm, and Sune will never happen... (Though I do like the idea of Siamorphe in Brightwater - so that may well stay.) |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 03:02 AM | So Mystra is dead no way to change that, at least no according to cannon. -Nah, where there's a will, there's a way. This is, literally, the ultimate plothook, raising Mystra. |
| msatran01-06-08, 03:18 AM | The problem is, they did this so that they could have D+D for morons. Now Wizards will have Wizard Magic Necromancers will have Necromancer Magic Bards will have Bard Magic Assassins will have Assassin Magic Warlocks will have Warlock Magic Fighters will have Fighter Magic....WHAT? But yeah, that's how they want things to work. Instead of Arcane and Divine, everything will work like...uhm...Second Edition. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 03:24 AM | Fighters will have Fighter Magic....WHAT? -Wacky, ain't it? |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 03:48 AM | Oh and she will be hot!! Duah!!! Magic= sexy ....So you think David Copperfield is Sexy!!!!:eek: |
| Dzwood01-06-08, 04:23 AM | First off thanx for the feed back so far and sorry about the spelling errors I have a thing with the order of leters in words <blush>. So could anyone sugest a good way to write up the Post-Mystra Midnight. Nothing to detailed just templates and levels and that sort of thing. Well any *flash* you want to give her would be nice too lol. but i dont need all her skills spells ect And Yes David Copperfield is Sexy...Not as sexy as me but still you got to respect a man who can pull of leather pants on stage at 40+ |
| Dzwood01-06-08, 04:28 AM | Wait?!?!?!?!?!?!? Fighter Magic!!!!! Que??? |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 04:50 AM | Wait?!?!?!?!?!?!? Fighter Magic!!!!! Que??? No se.Ni preguntes... :( |
| Alediran01-06-08, 10:01 AM | Caramba, cada vez mas hispanoparlantes. It's good to see more people of the language. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 10:46 AM | So could anyone sugest a good way to write up the Post-Mystra Midnight. -What do you mean? A mortal Midnight, who isn't Mystra anymore? Well, she'd have levels in Wizard and/or Sorcerer. Plenty of 'em. No se.Ni preguntes... :( -I don't know. Don't ask. Caramba, cada vez mas hispanoparlantes. -Jeeze, every time I look, more hispanics. -Am I close, guys? Gotta keep in form, you know. |
| Dzwood01-06-08, 10:47 AM | ohh um i dont actually speek much spanish just what i picked up from my ex....I can swear though!!!!! |
| Dzwood01-06-08, 10:51 AM | Ok stupid quote thing is smarter than me....Ya a mortal Midnight who is not Mystra any more. She had some sort of contingancy plan and is still alive! WooHOO Now she is a secret power in the Realms. But I was thinking you must get something for having been a god....powers, skill, a decoder ring that is also a little flashlight something!!!! -Dizzy |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 11:01 AM | -Is she going to have her memory? Is she not going to remember anything? If she remembers her time as Mystra, I'd pump her up quite a few levels in Wizard and/or Sorcerer, give her access to all spells in her spellbook, and allow her to be a Spellfire Channeler. If she doesn't have her memory, I'd give her a few levels in Spellfire Channeler only. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 02:42 PM | Hmmmm... leaving Midnight alive in a 4e world. First off, she would have to have some sort of 'divine shielding' to keep Cyric from finding out about her and killing her (or worse) all over again. Don't you think he would have lots of 'fun' with her in mortal form? Would we really want that to happen? Second, if she retained her memories, I think the shear feeling of loss over all that nigh-omnipotent power would drive her insane. can you imagine having been a GOD, and then losing that? Look at poor Karsus the Mad... I think the only way to make it work is to 'Munchkinize' it, and say AO made Cyric, along with Shar and any mortals who knew the truth, to forget about her mortal existance, so that she could remain safe and whole. You know... thats not such a bad idea for WotC to latch onto... If 4e FR tanks (not that I want it to), having her around would be a great insurance policy. ;) |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 02:58 PM | Midnight can have that shield agains scying thingy that "that Ogma Chick" that wrote Cyric book had.....( i know, I'm horrible with names :P) |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 04:58 PM | Rinda.:P |
| Dark Wizard01-06-08, 05:21 PM | Keeping something of the past era in greatly reduced power might be a safe nod to the old Realms. In my campaign Mystra eject a mortal Midnight from her divine being when she turned more TN/LN. Midnight then became a Chosen, sort of a Khelben figure, LN (but bordering LG). I didn't use the character from the book, because I didn't read them. I just liked the name, so she's essentially a new character, unless I somehow channeled the book character out of the collective consciousness. I used her once as behind the scenes employer for the party, but never got a chance to develop that angle further as the PCs moved on to something else. Or maybe even the newly neutral Mask!! He's neutral now? |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 05:28 PM | Ok stupid quote thing is smarter than me....Ya a mortal Midnight who is not Mystra any more. She had some sort of contingancy plan and is still alive! WooHOO Now she is a secret power in the Realms. But I was thinking you must get something for having been a god....powers, skill, a decoder ring that is also a little flashlight something!!!! -Dizzy Hmm, or you could pull a Myrkul and store a fragment of Midnight/Mystra's essence in a powerful magical artifact and build a plothook involving an individual who ended up picking it up and is now possessed my Midnight trying to recreate the Weave. |
| Dzwood01-06-08, 09:43 PM | Opps I did not mean Mask IS going N I just think he SHOULD BE. With Clerics of both G and E. Midnight should have acees to much of her memories from her time as a goddess but not all of them i think that would help with the sence of loss. Yumm Spellfire powerfull sexy and deadly. I dont know about recreating the weave i see her as moving past that part for now. If I do make her a goddes again maybe she will just be a goddess of good magick users...and sourcerers they never get a patron damn it!!!!!! What do you think here level was before she became a goddes was. -Dizzy in leather pants |
| Kenzuki01-06-08, 10:20 PM | Actually, wasn't Midnight only around level 8 or something as am ortal? |
| msatran01-06-08, 10:21 PM | Uhh....regardless of anything volatile I might say on these boards, in the immortal words of many before me... Dudes... Oghma's a GUY! |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 10:56 PM | If you are talking to me, I meant That Chick of Ogma, my bad |
| Dzwood01-07-08, 12:53 AM | Actually, wasn't Midnight only around level 8 or something as am ortal? Ohhh weak man!!!! Well time has passed and she was a freeking goddess so we can beef her up a bit. Hey maybe a few leavels of cleric thrown in with the Wiz Sorc. Like the worshiping a dead god thing.....i wish i could rember where I have read about that. I dunno I need to write this all out i dont want to make her toooo powerful. I mean since epic=BAD now :rolleyes: When epic becomes bad in fantacy is the day I pull out my B5 and Earth 2 TV on DVD and say screw books and RPGs...... |
| Dzwood01-07-08, 12:56 AM | Like the worshiping a dead god thing.....i wish i could rember where I have read about that. Wait she would be worshiping herslef sort of...that just sounds dirty and wrong to me never mind. :D |
| MaskedOne01-07-08, 12:21 PM | Second, if she retained her memories, I think the shear feeling of loss over all that nigh-omnipotent power would drive her insane. can you imagine having been a GOD, and then losing that? Of course, I've shifted to a divine state several times and shifted back. Certain things can't be fought effectively without Divine Salient Abilities. I just don't keep the position, possessing Velsharoon or linking to the current Lady Magic has always been preferred because I keep more independence as a mortal than I would as a divine power.:) As it stands, if I were to use 4E's story (bets anyone), I'd keep a fragment of Mystra around as a form of spirit or sentient elemental, provide it decent spellcasting and two tricks to save it from gods with a grudge. 1) Immunity to mortal and divine divination (no scrying, remote view or anything else) 2) The ability to teleport w/o error at will as an immediate action regardless of any mystical barriers. That combined with a healthy degree of paranoia should be enough to keep her being from slaughtered. If she can't be tracked magically and can't be trapped then it should take a great deal of effort to kill her off permanently. Either that or I can track down a horror template that makes permanently killing anything through brute force very difficult and modify it but it shouldn't be necessary. |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 10:18 AM | Masked One I shall now build you temples and worship you.....are you by chance the divine child of Mask and Mystra.....Watch Out Sharr |
| MaskedOne01-08-08, 02:00 PM | Praise should always be directed toward the Lady of Mysteries. I am but a humble servant. More precisely, I'm trying very hard to avoid becoming a permanent divinity though Shar may force my hand, I have more operational freedom as a man in service to Mystra than as a god subject to AO's law. Past that, I am more likely to be the many times great grandsire of the current lady than one of her children. I have served the office of the Lady of Magic for over 4000 years. I do not believe I have any family ties to Mystril but she was far more efficient at keeping secrets from me than her successors so who knows. As for Shar, the Circle of Greater Powers may not punish her upcoming gambit but the cloaks by which I am kept from her sight are not going to be affected by the apparent fall of Mystra and I will not allow this stunt to go unpunished. |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 02:19 PM | Well MaskedOne If you want to help head up this super secret orginization let me know. Midnight and I could sure use your help. I may be a lesser god but those powers come from the draco-lich and will fade soon leaving me mearly a demi-god. So come one bored you can help us think of a cool name. i do warn you we have agred no to target Karsus. We have have come to anagrement with him. Basicly as long as he stays entertaining on these bords we will not move aginst him. that and he is just so darn amazing you can kinda let it slide that he too killed mystra. |
| MaskedOne01-08-08, 02:25 PM | I'm handling the majority of the Lady's other contingencies, including storing divine fragments on other worlds, locking down a few things that the spellplague might free and distracting Shar. There are some others who'll be helping though. As for the Karsi, I have something of a truce with the recognized members of the tri-partite. Clones, fakes, cultists and wannabes are all considered fair game. |
| Kenzuki01-08-08, 02:37 PM | You talk funny.... |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 02:55 PM | Me????? I swear I proof my posts. It is just that if I know what I want it to say I dont see what it actually says. Sorry!!!! MaskedOne thank you |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 04:14 PM | Clones, fakes, cultists and wannabes are all considered fair game. -Indeed, they are all fair game, save certain Kultists. They all have ID cards, though. So, good hunting. |
| msatran01-08-08, 04:49 PM | If you are talking to me, I meant That Chick of Ogma, my bad Yeah, I was. I was like...wait...this guy's SMART. He couldn't have missed this. But there are people who read these boards who...well...aren't. :) |
| Alediran01-08-08, 05:15 PM | -Indeed, they are all fair game, save certain Kultists. They all have ID cards, though. So, good hunting. Luckly Hands aren't Kultists. We are a breed apart. :cool: |
| Khaelieth01-08-08, 05:18 PM | I think Cyric should get Godsbane back. Make things a tad simpler. |
| Kenzuki01-08-08, 05:23 PM | I think Cyric should get Godsbane back. Make things a tad simpler. Uh...wasn't Godsbane really Mask in disguise? |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 05:35 PM | Uh...wasn't Godsbane really Mask in disguise? -It was. Theoretically, though (and I've actually used this angle), Godsbane, the physical sword, still exists, hidden somewhere, in case Mask ever needs to 'use' the form again, for whatever reason. |
| Khaelieth01-08-08, 05:36 PM | It's all Mask's good for. Vhaeraun was soooooooo much better. |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 05:53 PM | It's all Mask's good for. Vhaeraun was soooooooo much better. -Vhaeraun was too specific, I think. Mask is more 'multipurpose'. Vhaeraun wants Drow, he wants them to live on the surface, and he wants to be a thorn in Lolth's side. Mask is an 'all-purpose' thief deity. |
| Kenzuki01-08-08, 05:59 PM | Mask vs Olidammara. Who is the best god of thieves? |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 06:09 PM | -Mask, only because I don't even know who Olidammara is. But, maybe that works in Olidammara's favor, because, I mean, being low key is important for a thief. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-08-08, 06:23 PM | Heya, Mask vs Olidammara. Who is the best god of thieves? I'd say Mask too, but only because his name is easier to spell. :) |
| Kenzuki01-08-08, 07:16 PM | -Mask, only because I don't even know who Olidammara is. But, maybe that works in Olidammara's favor, because, I mean, being low key is important for a thief. Olidammara Title(s): The Laughing Rogue Home Plane: Heroic Domains of Ysgard Power Level: Intermediate Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Portfolio: Music, Revels, Wine, Rogues, Humor, Tricks Domains: Chaos, Luck, Trickery Alias(es): none Superior: none He's a deity from the core/Greyhawk setting. Personally I like Mask. |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 08:01 PM | Olidammara Title(s): The Laughing Rogue Home Plane: Heroic Domains of Ysgard Power Level: Intermediate Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Portfolio: Music, Revels, Wine, Rogues, Humor, Tricks Domains: Chaos, Luck, Trickery Alias(es): none Superior: none He's a deity from the core/Greyhawk setting. Personally I like Mask. -Hmm...Looks like one of those 'hapy-go-lucky' thief deities. I don't like those. Yeah, I'm still going with Mask here. |
| 18DELTA01-09-08, 02:06 AM | -Hmm...Looks like one of those 'hapy-go-lucky' thief deities. I don't like those. Yeah, I'm still going with Mask here. -Mask FTW, he has Cale.:D Lord Delta:fight!: |
| Khaelieth01-09-08, 07:15 AM | Olidammara. But honestly, Bilbo. |
| Dzwood01-09-08, 08:14 PM | I was wondering if their was any indication of an Elamental plane of Magic......I think that is where my post Mystra, Midnight will end up if there is. If the cosmology dosnt include one why not and what would live there. I have nothing in my books about it...but if they add one i bet that will be the source of magic in the realms. -Dizzy:confused: |
| XHereticX01-09-08, 09:45 PM | It's all Mask's good for. Vhaeraun was soooooooo much better. For some reason Vhaeraun always reminded me of an emo kid. So I thought it was quite ironic that he ended up dying by getting cut into pieces. |
| Khaelieth01-10-08, 07:30 AM | For some reason Vhaeraun always reminded me of an emo kid. So I thought it was quite ironic that he ended up dying by getting cut into pieces. Bah, lies. Ever seen an emo take a knife to somebody else? Vhaeraun's really got his sister and Mask tied up in his basement, where kobolds are poking them with sticks. The humiliation! |
| Dzwood01-11-08, 01:50 AM | So thats where my sticks went!!! |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 10:26 AM | So thats where my sticks went!!! I sense an underlying sexual reference...:eek: |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 10:39 AM | Hehehehehehehe you know me I cant get enuf of those sexy kobolds and those big sticks they have YUM!!!!! Ohh and the bigger the better |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 11:01 AM | Hehehehehehehe you know me I cant get enuf of those sexy kobolds and those big sticks they have YUM!!!!! Ohh and the bigger the better I never knew you had a Bestial streak;) |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 11:10 AM | ya and I have discovered the only thing thos lame ass Dragonborne are good fore...... |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 11:26 AM | ya and I have discovered the only thing thos lame ass Dragonborne are good fore...... Head?;) |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 11:28 AM | Yes...can we get away with talking about this. And btw its the fangs.... |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 11:32 AM | Yes...can we get away with talking about this. And btw its the fangs.... Yes, topics of "disturbing" origins sping up all the time on these boards. Fangs??? Gee, I didn't know you liked your passion marks so deep... |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 12:11 PM | NO not for biteing they are more like goal posts....ya know touch down!!!! |
| Khaelieth01-12-08, 12:15 PM | Derailed at all? |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 12:18 PM | NO not for biteing they are more like goal posts....ya know touch down!!!! Well, at least you don't have to worry as much about your aiming :D |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 12:29 PM | So umm magic?!?!?!?!?! |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 12:30 PM | So umm magic?!?!?!?!?! No...the "goal posts" do serve as a "guideline" for french does it not?;) |
| The_Shaman01-12-08, 01:54 PM | So umm magic?!?!?!?!?! Perseverance is a wonderful thing. Have a :cookie: . It's the good stuff, pirate recipe ;) . I even used the special rum I've stashed from me wild days. Kopyrka's fins, those were the days... Anyway, if any game I'm in has the "new" lore, progresses to high levels, allows us some really earth-shattering changes and has me playing an appropriately-themed character, I'd be bringing back the Lady of Mysteries or die trying. Heck, if they don't have a decent deity of magic, I'd probably be doing this anyway. |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 02:17 PM | Thats why I think we need Midnight to help. I think a good midlevel quest will be to steal Mystras body from the astral and bring it to Midnight.....its what i am working on right now |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 02:30 PM | Thats why I think we need Midnight to help. I think a good midlevel quest will be to steal Mystras body from the astral and bring it to Midnight.....its what i am working on right now Bah, some creature from the Far Realm probably already beat you to it.;) |
| Dzwood01-12-08, 05:58 PM | Damn them where r my kobold minions they were suposed to have that godly body to me yesterday!!!!! I knew i should have used UPS gawd |
| MaskedOne01-13-08, 11:00 AM | Bah, some creature from the Far Realm probably already beat you to it.;) Nope, but it's also not in the Astral. Like most relics with a direct link to the Lady's power, I'm safeguarding it for the moment. A truly devout servant will find the way eventually but it won't be easy and I will of course be watching. |
| Dzwood01-13-08, 01:17 PM | Nope, but it's also not in the Astral. Like most relics with a direct link to the Lady's power, I'm safeguarding it for the moment. A truly devout servant will find the way eventually but it won't be easy and I will of course be watching. well thats fine I guess but send my Kobolds back!!!! I get............lonley with out them. and we are overdue for out movie shoo at LKs :D If you dont Know what i am talking about with that one dont ask!! |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 04:59 PM | Nope, but it's also not in the Astral. Like most relics with a direct link to the Lady's power, I'm safeguarding it for the moment. A truly devout servant will find the way eventually but it won't be easy and I will of course be watching. Have you become a Servant of the Fallen yet? Because if you haven't, you will be dead in a few seconds as I have sent an entire legion of greater devils to claim the remains of Mystra in the name of the King of Hell:devil: |
| Dzwood01-13-08, 05:28 PM | Heretic put the corpse of the god down!!! NOW!!!! Or I wont bake you any pie. I wone the all male Indiana bake off in 05. Seriously give me the body and Ill give you any pie you would like!!! |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 05:33 PM | Heretic put the corpse of the god down!!! NOW!!!! Or I wont bake you any pie. I wone the all male Indiana bake off in 05. Seriously give me the body and Ill give you any pie you would like!!! Sure, bake a pie out of this corpse and we'll share it, k?:D |
| Dzwood01-13-08, 05:34 PM | Hmmm if a lesser god eats the body of a dead god.......hmmmmmm. No Ill feed it to Midnight. Ill "bake" some thing else for me!!! hehehehehehehe |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 05:43 PM | Hmmm if a lesser god eats the body of a dead god.......hmmmmmm. No Ill feed it to Midnight. Ill "bake" some thing else for me!!! hehehehehehehe "Evil Laughter" |
| Dzwood01-14-08, 07:30 AM | "Evil Laughter" "CG coughing sputtering laughing" So umm Selune is an elven goddess hmm? |
| The_Shaman01-14-08, 09:00 AM | Isn't Midnight dead anyway? I mean afaik she shrugged off her mortal coil to become Mystra, and now Mystra's dead. What could work is, say, the Chosen sacrificing their divine essence to bring Mystra back - or, if it comes to that, someone sacrificing them to bring Mystra back. Shouldn't be necessary imo, though - most of them are quite loyal. |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 09:09 AM | So umm Selune is an elven goddess hmm? -No, unfortunatley they made it quite clear that Selūne isn't an Elven goddess, but that Sehanine Moonbow is a Human goddess. |
| Dzwood01-14-08, 04:22 PM | Isn't Midnight dead anyway? I mean afaik she shrugged off her mortal coil to become Mystra, and now Mystra's dead. What could work is, say, the Chosen sacrificing their divine essence to bring Mystra back - or, if it comes to that, someone sacrificing them to bring Mystra back. Shouldn't be necessary imo, though - most of them are quite loyal. Sorry Shaman in my game <once I get around to it> Midnight is Mystra's contingancy plan. The mortal body of Midnight will be hidden safely away somewhere in stasis. At the death of Mystra the essence of Midnight will return to her mortal body and she will awaken. Basicly she would have her leval 8Wiz <from before her acension> and few levals of Sor and spellfire leaval or two. As time gose on I wouls see her cange from more of a human to a living magic elamental, as magic settles into its new form. There is more I am planing for her but that is the basics as of right now. One of the long tearm goals of Midnight is to steal the divine corpse of Mystra from the astral. Ohhhher existance is sheilded by Mask Azuth and and a secret god. HEHEHEHE. that is the plan at this point |
| Dzwood01-15-08, 01:29 AM | ewwww way to on topics I wany more posts about LK and the crew of The Jolly Rodgering......But we should move it to a submarine. That way we all have an excuse to "go down" LMAO |
| Flicker01-15-08, 06:50 AM | Just for the sake of asking, has anything been mentioned about how magic will actually work ie the metaphysical side. I always liked the way the weave was integral to the realms and if it wasn't there then everybody felt something a little wrong (dead magic areas) and arcane spellcasters more so. So how's it actually going to work in 4e? Is every mage now not a mage but a sorceror? ir able to draw from the 'what'? to power spell effects. Answers on a postcard please, no, ok how about a post. |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 06:56 AM | Just for the sake of asking, has anything been mentioned about how magic will actually work ie the metaphysical side. I always liked the way the weave was integral to the realms and if it wasn't there then everybody felt something a little wrong (dead magic areas) and arcane spellcasters more so. So how's it actually going to work in 4e? Is every mage now not a mage but a sorceror? ir able to draw from the 'what'? to power spell effects. Answers on a postcard please, no, ok how about a post. -As of right now, I've got no clue. |
| Flicker01-15-08, 07:02 AM | It isn't just me then!!! and that's why I think 4e has been Retconned to death. Now of course and i'm not been intentionally insulting here but nobody may care, maybe the target audience aimed at only needs to know 'its magic'. Oh dear have we marketed out intelligence in 4e, there will only be 5 stats? |
| Stigger01-15-08, 02:03 PM | I'm tending towards Raw Magic becoming useable, and that Mystra was 'just holding us back' sort of explanation, to really take that dagger in her back and twisting it around one last time for good measure... wouldn't surprise me anyway. |
| Suin Bahhar01-15-08, 05:15 PM | Wait. 94 years of manipulation of raw magic or magic eather sounds like Fearun could actually become a world on the forefront of magic advancement, as it always has been. That is IF all planar spellcasters in all the multiverse are somehow effected by the spellplague as well. (The planar changes are giving me the most hesitation in embracing new "future lore".) I hope Gond gives his blessings to some technological inventions and the gnomes of Lantan will hark in a new golden age beyond their own few self-imposed limitations. If Lantan survives the boiling of seas and aboleths and shades and dragonborn eggs thrown at them. |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 05:42 PM | -I know there's something about new 'sources of magic'. What exactly all that entails, I'm not sure. |
| Stigger01-16-08, 04:34 AM | Justifications for the Wand/Staff/Orb stuff I'd guess. |
| MaskedOne01-16-08, 04:43 PM | Have you become a Servant of the Fallen yet? Because if you haven't, you will be dead in a few seconds as I have sent an entire legion of greater devils to claim the remains of Mystra in the name of the King of Hell:devil: Incinerates legion with Divine Fire, relocates Mystra's body. I'm sorry, you sent what? I don't want Mystra's power, doesn't mean I can't get it for personal amusement. Go bug someone else. I'm tending towards Raw Magic becoming useable, and that Mystra was 'just holding us back' sort of explanation, to really take that dagger in her back and twisting it around one last time for good measure... wouldn't surprise me anyway. Raw magic already is usable, has been been for quite some time. WotC just hasn't made rules for it which is one of the main reasons, I'm so ****** off. They are executing a divinity I enjoy and destroying a relatively unique part of the setting over a F***** illusion. If Mystra actually had a monopoly on supernatural power at any point since 2E, I might almost sympathize but she doesn't. |
| Kenzuki01-16-08, 04:59 PM | Sorry your god died. I wonder how Greenwood feels considering she was like his favorite or something. |
| Lord Karsus01-16-08, 05:00 PM | Sorry your god died. I wonder how Greenwood feels considering she was like his favorite or something. -As the quote goes, "That's showbiz". |
| MaskedOne01-16-08, 05:08 PM | Sorry your god died. I wonder how Greenwood feels considering she was like his favorite or something. Couldn't answer that though I suspect Greenwood is slightly more impartial than I am. He has a far broader interest in the setting than I do. I like somewhere between 4 and 10 (dependent on mood) key points a great deal and the rest just happens to be occasionally amusing. Ed seems to like most of the Realms. I'd still be more tolerant of Mystra's official death if they provided reasoning that is not based whole or in part on delusions. |
| Stigger01-16-08, 05:21 PM | Impartial... not many (though there's probably a couple of them) people who can honestly claim impartiality about 4e on these boards. I know I can't anyway... Feh, I'm pretty sure I'm mostly done with most new-printed stuff for RPGs. Except maybe Star Wars... Saga's made it much more intriguing to me mechanics wise, as in easy and don't have to think too much about it so I can just get on with the damned story. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-16-08, 07:12 PM | I'd still be more tolerant of Mystra's official death if they provided reasoning that is not based whole or in part on delusions. I know, it ticks me off, too. |
| AskaniPsion01-16-08, 07:18 PM | Every other deity that has "died" has some part of it left. Bits of Myrkul are all around. Bhaal left "children". Bane was "reborn". Gods' bodies are floating in the Astral. Orcus who is almost a god came back too. I don't see how the Goddess of Magic would not have a contingency plan. The old Mystra did. Magic itself still exists so it is not like they totally disrupted her. They just dispersed the Weave so it flowed freely. Mystra really shouldn't have died. |
| Lord Karsus01-16-08, 07:29 PM | Every other deity that has "died" has some part of it left. Bits of Myrkul are all around. Bhaal left "children". Bane was "reborn". Gods' bodies are floating in the Astral. Orcus who is almost a god came back too. I don't see how the Goddess of Magic would not have a contingency plan. The old Mystra did. Magic itself still exists so it is not like they totally disrupted her. They just dispersed the Weave so it flowed freely. Mystra really shouldn't have died. -According to Richard Baker, and I am paraphrasing, from the 'Ask-the-Author' thread, he said that Shar studied when Mystryl was killed, and promptly raised via contingencies, and sent Cyric to do her bidding in some way where Mystra could not come back to life. -Sounds extremely shallow and full of holes to me. |
| AskaniPsion01-16-08, 09:12 PM | -Sounds extremely shallow and full of holes to me. Yes indeed.... ......almost as bad the "One More Day" storyline in the Spider-Man comics.....also known as bad storytelling. All my friends who read Spidey canceled their Spidey subscriptions and refuse to buy it. |
| Kenzuki01-16-08, 09:26 PM | Well if she died twice and came back TWICE If I was Shar I'de make pretty damn sure there was no way she could survive. Why don't we analize how she did it. In both times did not her essence pass on to two mortal women who were either followers or close by or something? So if this is true and she was killed on her own Realm with no successor around would it not make sense that if there was no one around to take her place that she like any other god would just die? By that I mean I fail to see how she cannot just simply die like any other god and stay dead under the right circumstances. Is there a rule where it says "If the Goddess of Magic dies she automatically reforms/raises from the dead in x number of days". I might be wrong on all of this so if so please enlighten me. Is it the fact that by all accounts she couldn't have been killed because she's not the same as the other gods or is it just the fact that you think the descision to kill her was stupid. If it's the latter I totally sympathize and respect those feelings. I'm sure I'de feel the same way if one of my favorite characters died to justify a new gaming system. |
| MarkusTay6301-16-08, 09:43 PM | Or Shar appeared in Rich Baker's bedroom, just like El appears at Ed's house, and says "I need this b__ch gone... FOR GOOD!" He says "Yesssss... my QUEEN" really, I can come up with a hundred ways for it to have worked - it is fantasy after all, and we are dealing with Gods here, so you can pretty much say whatever the hell you want. I don't think the plot or it's outcome are the true culprits here. Take a look at how Khelben died - that was an iconic death for an iconic character. Now, people liked Khelben, but his death was more exceptable because of the way it was presented to us. Not a one-sentence blurb in the back of a book many of us were otherwise looking forward. that was just a VERy poor business decisionn, IMHO. :nonono: Yes indeed.... ......almost as bad the "One More Day" storyline in the Spider-Man comics.....also known as bad storytelling. All my friends who read Spidey canceled their Spidey subscriptions and refuse to buy it.You know, I stopped reading Spiderman in the mid 90's, so I had to look that up. Thanks for ruining my day. :( I am SO GLAD I stopped reading comics BEFORE they ruined them. Also, I finally understand some of Msatran's ramblings... :rolleyes: |
| buzzard01-16-08, 10:31 PM | By that I mean I fail to see how she cannot just simply die like any other god and stay dead under the right circumstances. Is there a rule where it says "If the Goddess of Magic dies she automatically reforms/raises from the dead in x number of days". I might be wrong on all of this so if so please enlighten me. Is it the fact that by all accounts she couldn't have been killed because she's not the same as the other gods or is it just the fact that you think the descision to kill her was stupid. If it's the latter I totally sympathize and respect those feelings. I'm sure I'de feel the same way if one of my favorite characters died to justify a new gaming system. Stat-wise she has no ability that allows her to resurrect or reform (Lathander has such an ability in the form of the "Rejuvenation" Salient Divine Ability, which allows him to reform 10d10 days after his "death" -except if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher divine rank, in which case he dies normally). |
| Lord Karsus01-16-08, 11:13 PM | You know, I stopped reading Spiderman in the mid 90's, so I had to look that up. -That's when it started getting good again. |
| sfdragon01-17-08, 03:59 AM | you know what would be odd at the death of Mystra if Karsus came back as a half-god. |
| Kenzuki01-17-08, 08:41 AM | Well at least you'll have Corellion as the god of magic maybe Thoth too I guess. Cyric is a god of magic too...sort of. My question to Rich is this. When Cyric killed Mystra why didn't he get her portfolios and become the new Deity of Magic? |
| Alediran01-17-08, 09:46 AM | When Cyric killed Mystra why didn't he get her portfolios and become the new Deity of Magic? Because AO didn't want him to? AO has to approve of every change. I would have preffered if AO appeared in front of Cyric to stop Mystra and demote him to mortality. |
| Lord Karsus01-17-08, 11:29 AM | you know what would be odd at the death of Mystra if Karsus came back as a half-god. -I wouldn't like that. Well at least you'll have Corellion as the god of magic maybe Thoth too I guess. Cyric is a god of magic too...sort of. My question to Rich is this. When Cyric killed Mystra why didn't he get her portfolios and become the new Deity of Magic? -Why don't you ask him? |
| Storm_Silverhand01-18-08, 02:30 AM | Heya, In both times did not her essence pass on to two mortal women who were either followers or close by or something? So if this is true and she was killed on her own Realm with no successor around would it not make sense that if there was no one around to take her place that she like any other god would just die? I believe, and I could be wrong here, but when Mystryl suicided, her essence plummeted back to Toril like a shooting star and struck a rather simple minded farm girl. This girl then became the first Mystra. Mystra, when the time came, chose Midnight to carry a part of her essence. I don't think she actually intended Midnight to succeed her (Elminster also had a portion of Mystra's essence within him, as covered in the Shadows of the Avatar series). In the end, when Midnight got to the top of Mount Waterdeep, Ao chose her as Mystra's replacement. Ao is responsible for Midnight/Mystra, not Mystra (1). By that I mean I fail to see how she cannot just simply die like any other god and stay dead under the right circumstances. Is there a rule where it says "If the Goddess of Magic dies she automatically reforms/raises from the dead in x number of days". I might be wrong on all of this so if so please enlighten me. Is it the fact that by all accounts she couldn't have been killed because she's not the same as the other gods or is it just the fact that you think the descision to kill her was stupid. If it's the latter I totally sympathize and respect those feelings. I'm sure I'de feel the same way if one of my favorite characters died to justify a new gaming system. We aren't saying that she can't be killed at all, in the right circumstances she can. What we are saying is that the circumstances presented in TGHotR are not satisfactory enough, and there are too many holes in it for it to work... I do believe that some believe that Cyric and Shar are getting special treatment because for some reason they seem to be the designers favorites right at this time, and frankly, I suspect there's some truth to that. |
| Dzwood01-18-08, 03:38 AM | We aren't saying that she can't be killed at all, in the right circumstances she can. What we are saying is that the circumstances presented in TGHotR are not satisfactory enough, and there are too many holes in it for it to work... I do believe that some believe that Cyric and Shar are getting special treatment because for some reason they seem to be the designers favorites right at this time, and frankly, I suspect there's some truth to that. Dose anyone think that WotC will expand on the events in the last few pages of GHotR?? Like in novles or somrthing? Have we heard any rumors? If they killed Mystra off and this is all the info we get.....:surrender :rant: :tantrum: :banghead: :fight!: :tissue: |
| Lord Karsus01-18-08, 04:36 AM | Dose anyone think that WotC will expand on the events in the last few pages of GHotR?? Like in novles or somrthing? -One can only hope, because, if nothing else, that'd make some good reading. |
| The_Shaman01-18-08, 04:51 AM | -One can only hope, because, if nothing else, that'd make some good reading. How sure are you of that? |
| Lord Karsus01-18-08, 05:00 AM | How sure are you of that? -My line of thought is, it'd be hard to make interesting ideas into boring books. Most of the writers who regularly write for the Forgotten Realms are pretty decent. |
| Meldread01-18-08, 02:59 PM | I might actually buy a novel that covers the whole Helm, Tyr, Tymora, Sune and Mystra, Cyric and Shar situation. That might actually make a decent book and might do a lot to help people come to terms with the deaths. I think Markus hit the nail on the head. The reason so many have trouble dealing with the situation is the way it was presented to them. Also, I don't think Shar/Cyric are currently the 'favorites'. They are just conveniently useful because the setting really lacks evil deities who have the power AND the motivation to carry out something of this scope. Mystra has long been a favored deity of the setting, and even moreso her Chosen. I am glad novel authors are finally closing that chapter of FR history and moving on. Now all I have to do is cross my fingers and hope Mystra stays dead. They have already said there will be a 5E so that means Mystra will end up dying yet again if she is resurrected. Additionally, for once, I would like to see the bad guys score a point. TSR had a policy that basically regulated how evil a character could be and that they could never win. I think the setting is still suffering from that. Just look at the Zhents. I am firmly in the George R. R. Martin Camp when it comes to villains: 'One sides villain is the other sides hero.' |
| Alediran01-18-08, 03:49 PM | Haven't bad guys do a lot more damage in 3ed that necessary? Look at how much victories they had (and no, conquering half of Faerūn isn't a victory, it's bad understanding of the complex mechanics between different power groups). I don't like evil groups having victories in the setting because they change the dinamics of what I'm doing. For example if I needed Hilsfar just like it was before Last Mythal that evil victory destroyed my plans. |
| MaskedOne01-18-08, 04:01 PM | Heya, Mystra, when the time came, chose Midnight to carry a part of her essence. I don't think she actually intended Midnight to succeed her (Elminster also had a portion of Mystra's essence within him, as covered in the Shadows of the Avatar series). In the end, when Midnight got to the top of Mount Waterdeep, Ao chose her as Mystra's replacement. Ao is responsible for Midnight/Mystra, not Mystra (1). Not precisely, that's what the Avatar Trilogy showed yes but there's a bit more to it. Either Elminster in Hell or the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy had Midnight coming to El for advice on how to handle the portfolio of magic early in the Time of Troubles. AO intervened when El tried to shift Midnight to Safehold where she could plan safely, buried a great deal of information that El had given her and shipped Midnight to another location. AO is responsible for confirming Midnight's appointment but Mystra had already set in motion events to shift the duties and powers of Goddess of Magic to Midnight. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-18-08, 06:22 PM | Heya, I might actually buy a novel that covers the whole Helm, Tyr, Tymora, Sune and Mystra, Cyric and Shar situation. That might actually make a decent book and might do a lot to help people come to terms with the deaths. Nothing could help me come to terms with Mystra's death, at least. It's just one of those things that kills the setting for me... And making Tymora into a meek woman... that's almost worse than killing Mystra. There is no way they could explain it - Cyric seems to have become all powerful and the good deities seem to have lost their marbles... Not good plotwork, IMHO. Also, I don't think Shar/Cyric are currently the 'favorites'. They are just conveniently useful because the setting really lacks evil deities who have the power AND the motivation to carry out something of this scope. Mystra has long been a favored deity of the setting, and even moreso her Chosen. I am glad novel authors are finally closing that chapter of FR history and moving on. Moving on. *sigh* Yeah, to tell stories about Cyric, while cutting off any story in progress about Mystra. Well done. :clap: :rolleyes: Now all I have to do is cross my fingers and hope Mystra stays dead. They have already said there will be a 5E so that means Mystra will end up dying yet again if she is resurrected. Additionally, for once, I would like to see the bad guys score a point. TSR had a policy that basically regulated how evil a character could be and that they could never win. I think the setting is still suffering from that. Just look at the Zhents. I am firmly in the George R. R. Martin Camp when it comes to villains: 'One sides villain is the other sides hero.' Baker has said Mystra is going to stay dead, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. It will be interesting to see if things improve on the villain front, I just hope they don't go too far (though in my opinion, they already have gone too far the other way... but it's whatever floats your boat, if you get your wish, hooray for you. I'll just be over here enjoying 3e Realms and alternate future time line with 4e rules.) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-18-08, 06:58 PM | -One can only hope, because, if nothing else, that'd make some good reading. Like Shaman, I can't say I'm confident of that... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-18-08, 07:01 PM | Haven't bad guys do a lot more damage in 3ed that necessary? Look at how much victories they had (and no, conquering half of Faerūn isn't a victory, it's bad understanding of the complex mechanics between different power groups). I don't like evil groups having victories in the setting because they change the dinamics of what I'm doing. For example if I needed Hilsfar just like it was before Last Mythal that evil victory destroyed my plans. You can always just ignore it.:) |
| Stigger01-18-08, 07:50 PM | Sure, but I think the point is that if the authors and designers keep messing with the balance of power and shifting things around the way they have, they're going to end up with massive amounts of confusion in short order. I think the idea that they should be focusing on maintaining a status-quo, and let us as players and DMs worry about messing things up and making the big changes. |
| XHereticX01-18-08, 09:13 PM | Or Shar appeared in Rich Baker's bedroom, just like El appears at Ed's house, and says "I need this b__ch gone... FOR GOOD!" He says "Yesssss... my QUEEN" : How did you know Rich Baker was a closet Sharran..."evil whispering" Hmm, the way you do that you make Shar sound like a Mafia Don ordering a hit:D Mystra's death truly deprives the Realms of a distinctive characteristic that has defined it for decades. I truly feel sorry for the people coming into FR in 4E not knowing the significance of that. People complain about the FR being "too detailed" or "full of overpowered crap." But frankly, its stuff like the Seven Sisters, the Weave, and the long and extensive historical background that really gave the setting it "crustiness" and the feeling that in this world, you aren't just some random adventurer slaying a random monster, and that your actions have consequences that are beyond your kin. It made the setting feel "alive." With 4e, FR will change and become like a variation of the core D&D setting, except with more restrictions.:( |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 01:03 AM | Like Shaman, I can't say I'm confident of that... -Alright, let me rephrase that. It'd make some interesting reading. |
| DarkZephyr01-19-08, 02:21 AM | Heya, I want Mystra/Midnight. I don't want any other magic deity. The whole idea of a new magic deity who isn't Mystra fills my heart with sorrow and rage. The Forgotten Realms won't be the same setting without her. That is the main reason (though I do have many others, this one is the key) why I will cease collecting Realms materials once I manage to get my hands on the last few 3.5e books. Gosh, that feels better. I agree with you 100% (and its not because I hate men, as I AM one), I fell in love with her when I read the Avatar books, and I am really bored with aloof dieties, I loved how Midnight took an active role and a genuine interest in her worshippers. People complain that she had too many of her own interests, but I think that it made some interesting story material, like the hard lesson both she and Kelemvor learned during the Trial of Cyric. By the way, why is it ok for a piece of crap like Cyric to serve his own interests but not ok for Mystra to do so? I also hate that Midnight buys it at the hands of Shar and Cyric. Why do those two a-holes get to win the day? I cannot believe that we lose Mystra but are stuck with (in my opinion) the crappiest fictional deity ever, Cyric. That just bites the big one and makes everything I read in the Avatar series a pointless joke. |
| Dzwood01-19-08, 02:35 AM | I would like to see an open ended campaign or source book about reserecting dead gods or elavating lesser gods/demipowers. That way wey can move to 4e but then make the new FR into our old FR...if that even makes sence. That way WotC would not be "stuck" making the realms too diferent for core. If the info on how to "re-do" the gods is out their we can use it how we want and not scare the deisngers. But alas not gonna hapen. I bet by 5e the gods will ball be one face of the same god.:rolleyes: :P |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 02:49 AM | I would like to see an open ended campaign or source book about reserecting dead gods or elavating lesser gods/demipowers. -There already is. It's called 'Your Campaign'. WotC isn't going to back off and suddenly change things at the drop of a hat. If they do, I think that makes it even worse. Anyway, as so many other people have been saying, "XYZ idea isn't going to make it into my campaign". I recommend, for your sanity, you take this approach. |
| Dzwood01-19-08, 03:05 AM | -There already is. It's called 'Your Campaign'. WotC isn't going to back off and suddenly change things at the drop of a hat. If they do, I think that makes it even worse. Anyway, as so many other people have been saying, "XYZ idea isn't going to make it into my campaign". I recommend, for your sanity, you take this approach. Sorry LK I was not very clear. I meant for those of us who want to make the switch to 4e and start off basicly in cannon. So they say God X is dead or demoted to the patron saint of feet. Ok so we will go with that....but I would like it if we got some rules and guidlines for changing that. I mean I always liked Finder. So I bet he ends up as somones gofer why wouldnt WotC give me and my players the tools to turn him into a crazed greated god of change. I think it would be a very fun adventure and is a great way for the players to interacte with soemthing in a new way.I know I could write it up myself but Id like something more technical. Jut my thoughts..... |
| DarkZephyr01-19-08, 03:08 AM | People complain about the FR being "too detailed" or "full of overpowered crap." But frankly, its stuff like the Seven Sisters, the Weave, and the long and extensive historical background that really gave the setting it "crustiness" and the feeling that in this world, you aren't just some random adventurer slaying a random monster, and that your actions have consequences that are beyond your kin. It made the setting feel "alive." With 4e, FR will change and become like a variation of the core D&D setting, except with more restrictions.:( I agree. It sounds to me like FR is simply being dumbed down. Nothing more. |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 03:08 AM | Sorry LK I was not very clear. I meant for those of us who want to make the switch to 4e and start off basicly in cannon. So they say God X is dead or demoted to the patron saint of feet. Ok so we will go with that....but I would like it if we got some rules and guidlines for changing that. I mean I always liked Finder. So I bet he ends up as somones gofer why wouldnt WotC give me and my players the tools to turn him into a crazed greated god of change. I think it would be a very fun adventure and is a great way for the players to interacte with soemthing in a new way.I know I could write it up myself but Id like something more technical. Jut my thoughts..... -Oh, gotcha. Well, still, this looks like something you'll have to handle along (or with the help of the WotC Boards Community ;)), as it is my viewpoint that WotC isn't going to do anything of the sort. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 06:01 PM | Heya, (and its not because I hate men, as I AM one) *blinks* I don't hate men either, and I don't think my post about Mystra had anything in it that would give you that impression. (Yes, I do admit to being a misandrist, but hate is too strong a word. Most of my friends are men.) |
| DarkZephyr01-19-08, 06:02 PM | -Oh, gotcha. Well, still, this looks like something you'll have to handle along (or with the help of the WotC Boards Community ;)), as it is my viewpoint that WotC isn't going to do anything of the sort. People have been complaining about how WotC does things (or doesn't do things) for years, and they are surely aware of this, but it doesn't move them, they just keep doing what they want to do, because there will always be plenty of lemmings who will happily spend spend spend, and that is of course, the bottom line. This has been the ultimate curse of many gaming companies, be they PnP or video gaming. |
| DarkZephyr01-19-08, 06:27 PM | Heya, *blinks* I don't hate men either, and I don't think my post about Mystra had anything in it that would give you that impression. (Yes, I do admit to being a misandrist, but hate is too strong a word. Most of my friends are men.) Well, its good to know that you don't hate men, sorry if it came across as if I was trying to imply that you do, but the content of your post made it seem as though gender played a very important role in why you loved Midnight (not that this is a bad thing, we all have our tastes) and while I was agreeing with you in that I utterly love her and want her back, I wanted people to know that my reasons for loving Midnight/Mystra were less because of gender and more because of who she was as a person. The word "hate" was directed at my own feelings on this issue (just because I am something of a drama-queen and can exaggerate a little when it comes to emotions), but I can certainly see how you might feel that it was based on my impressions of you, so for that I am sorry. But back to the topic of this thread, I am with you in that it just SUCKS that they have killed her off. I really hope her death will at least be noble and brave and in keeping with the selfless bravery that she exhibited as a human being, etc. I hope they don't have her go out like a wailing wimp or something, and I hope that Midnight's very soul doesn't get annihilated, though it probably will. I have to say that I am also a bit worried about what will happen to Adon and all of the others who died faithful to the various goddesses of Magic and all associated dieties. Since Dweomerheart is no more, does that mean that they all got destroyed as well? That would suck, because that would mean it was always possible, no matter how faithful you were to your god or goddess, that you could still get screwed in the end. Even if you made it to your paradise or heaven upon death. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 08:05 PM | Heya, But back to the topic of this thread, I am with you in that it just SUCKS that they have killed her off. I really hope her death will at least be noble and brave and in keeping with the selfless bravery that she exhibited as a human being, etc. I hope they don't have her go out like a wailing wimp or something, and I hope that Midnight's very soul doesn't get annihilated, though it probably will. I have to say that I am also a bit worried about what will happen to Adon and all of the others who died faithful to the various goddesses of Magic and all associated dieties. Since Dweomerheart is no more, does that mean that they all got destroyed as well? That would suck, because that would mean it was always possible, no matter how faithful you were to your god or goddess, that you could still get screwed in the end. Even if you made it to your paradise or heaven upon death. Yeah, I've thought about that a bit too, and it is absolutely horrifying. What happens to Mystra's faithful? Do they all just wink out of existence? It's terrible to contemplate. :( |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-19-08, 09:16 PM | -Alright, let me rephrase that. It'd make some interesting reading. Perhaps. And there is a such thing as "so bad it's good!";) |
| GreenKnight01-19-08, 09:21 PM | First Captain America, then Mystra. What's next? Are they gonna kill Superman (again)? Damn shame. I've been wanting to play a Mystic Theurge of Mystra for ages, now. Oh well. I get a home game going, and you can rest assured that Mystra WILL be back soon enough. Hmm. I wonder if the 4E Realms will still require you to pick a god in order to play a divine character? Cause if not, then I think I'm gonna go ahead and play a Mystic Theurge of Mystra in the Living Forgotten Realms campaign, anyway. A worshipper of a hundred year dead goddess. Should be interesting. |
| XHereticX01-19-08, 10:21 PM | First Captain America, then Mystra. What's next? Are they gonna kill Superman (again)? Damn shame. I've been wanting to play a Mystic Theurge of Mystra for ages, now. Oh well. I get a home game going, and you can rest assured that Mystra WILL be back soon enough. Hmm. I wonder if the 4E Realms will still require you to pick a god in order to play a divine character? Cause if not, then I think I'm gonna go ahead and play a Mystic Theurge of Mystra in the Living Forgotten Realms campaign, anyway. A worshipper of a hundred year dead goddess. Should be interesting. I don't think they're gonna be making rules for that aspect of play for a while (just look at how long it took LeOF to come out);) |
| DarkZephyr01-19-08, 11:28 PM | Heya, Yeah, I've thought about that a bit too, and it is absolutely horrifying. What happens to Mystra's faithful? Do they all just wink out of existence? It's terrible to contemplate. :( Yes, and my characters are ALWAYS worshippers of Mystra (pc games, not PnP), I have tried to make it otherwise, but I have never been able to bring myself to do so. Does this mean that if any of them die after Mystra dies, they will be considered "Faithless"? UGH. I also just now saw that Elistraee is dead TOO?? WTF??? OMG I hate WotC right now. Just hate 'em. This must mean that they are really out to kill off the Chosen in a major way, because one of the Chosen was also a Chosen of Elistraee, so to kill off that Chosen, I guess they had to kill off Elistraee as well. So that means Super-creep (I wish I could use the "B" word on here) Lolth is winning too. First Shar and Cyric (big deal about the 1000 year imprisonment, plus I bet he gets out sooner, somehow anyway), and now that crumb Lolth. Ugh. Edit: I cannot believe how much this is affecting me. LOL And before someone says "Get a life", I do have a life, however, that didn't stop me from becoming stupidly attached to this fictional world and its characters (I read the books and play the PC games, I do not play the PnP, but have thought about it, now I WON'T). I wish I never had become attached or even heard of it, though, now that this is happening. I remember when I first found out about the changes in the Dragonlance setting. I told myself "At least I have the old reliable Forgotten Realms". Time for me to immigrate over to the Elderscrolls setting completely, I guess. I wonder if they will ever make a PnP version of that. For me, a Forgotten Realms without Midnight/Mystra is kind of bleak right now. I know I will get over it, but right now, all is darkness and loss. First Dragonlance, then Vampire the Masquerade, now this, my "Old Reliable". I know that WotC felt that it just HAD to dumb down the game, but couldn't they have created an optional dumbed down rule-set? Or couldn't they have done this without killing off Mystra, Helm and Elistraee? |
| Meldread01-20-08, 12:31 AM | I don't hate men either, and I don't think my post about Mystra had anything in it that would give you that impression. (Yes, I do admit to being a misandrist, but hate is too strong a word. Most of my friends are men.) I know how you feel. Just because I attend the rallies doesn't mean I hate Black people and Jews! Why, most of my friends are Black and Jewish! :P (Sorry, I couldn't resist poking fun at the comment.) Back on topic - the only downside to Mystra's death (from my prospective) is the loss of the Weave. I really liked the concept of the Weave, but hated the fact that it had to be connected to a deity, instead of being a metaphysical force in the world. I might just wave my hand and say that at the moment Mystra died she infused her divine essence into the Weave to prevent another god (Cyric or Shar) from taking control of it. That would make the Weave a semi-sentient construct. It would also prevent Mystra's resurrection. So it is a win-win situation. |
| DarkZephyr01-20-08, 01:21 AM | So it is a win-win situation. Unless of course you are a Mystra fan like I am who is having a fit about all of this. lol But I would like your method of getting rid of Mystra much more than what WotC are doing. I would rather that they kept the weave, even if Mystra has to go and I prefer the concept of her consciously doing something like that than just going out like a wimp who didn't see it coming. I don't really get what WotC is doing, ultimately. It doesn't fit in with what has gone down in the past. Why is Ao not stepping in and gathering up the Weave and either reforming Midnight/Mystra or at least appointing a new deity of magic? He gathered up and reformed other dead deities, and even if Midnight is obliterated utterly like the other Mystra was, the Weave itself isn't, since magic still exists in some form. |
| Taita_of_Imaskar01-20-08, 01:53 AM | Like mentioned in the other thread about the death of Mystra, maybe Selune finally absorbed her, regaining some of her power, thus returning to Greater Deity status. |
| Lord Karsus01-20-08, 02:16 AM | Perhaps. And there is a such thing as "so bad it's good!";) -I don't think I've ever encountered something like that. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-20-08, 06:00 AM | Heya, I also just now saw that Elistraee is dead TOO?? WTF??? OMG I hate WotC right now. Just hate 'em. This must mean that they are really out to kill off the Chosen in a major way, because one of the Chosen was also a Chosen of Elistraee, so to kill off that Chosen, I guess they had to kill off Elistraee as well. So that means Super-creep (I wish I could use the "B" word on here) Lolth is winning too. First Shar and Cyric (big deal about the 1000 year imprisonment, plus I bet he gets out sooner, somehow anyway), and now that crumb Lolth. Ugh. Well, we don't know that for sure yet. Given the hints we've been given to this point, I suspect it is so... But I can see at least one way Eilistraee might still be around and Drizzt's comments about not being able to find her followers on the surface... Spoiler for the LP series: The Faerzress has been strengthened in the LP series so far, and the Drow seem to be drawn to it like a moth. Stronger Faerzress could mean that Drow are drawn back below into the Underdark... Perhaps there is a second Decent of the Drow? Anyway, this sava game she and Lolth are playing is to the death... So I'm afraid for her... I'm still expecting her to die. :( Edit: I cannot believe how much this is affecting me. LOL And before someone says "Get a life", I do have a life, however, that didn't stop me from becoming stupidly attached to this fictional world and its characters (I read the books and play the PC games, I do not play the PnP, but have thought about it, now I WON'T). I wish I never had become attached or even heard of it, though, now that this is happening. I remember when I first found out about the changes in the Dragonlance setting. I told myself "At least I have the old reliable Forgotten Realms". You aren't the only one feeling that way. :( Though I don't regret getting attached to it - there's plenty of Realms left for me, without moving along to 4th Edition. I am pretty sure there will be at least some fan support for "classic Realms" - check out the Ye Classic Realms Compilation threads in Forgotten Realms General, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=977444) here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978716) and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978717). I suppose that really won't help you if you don't play PnP. :( I know that WotC felt that it just HAD to dumb down the game, but couldn't they have created an optional dumbed down rule-set? Or couldn't they have done this without killing off Mystra, Helm and Elistraee? I don't know that it really is dumbing down. Just changing things. I think MT63 has a good point about the setting really not changing much. Thing is, the elements that did change are the elements I liked most. Back on topic - the only downside to Mystra's death (from my prospective) is the loss of the Weave. I really liked the concept of the Weave, but hated the fact that it had to be connected to a deity, instead of being a metaphysical force in the world. I might just wave my hand and say that at the moment Mystra died she infused her divine essence into the Weave to prevent another god (Cyric or Shar) from taking control of it. That would make the Weave a semi-sentient construct. It would also prevent Mystra's resurrection. So it is a win-win situation. Not really win-win from my perspective, but definitely a better solution than what we've got right now. |
| Khaelieth01-20-08, 12:03 PM | -I don't think I've ever encountered something like that. AvP 2. Shurikens that size can ONLY be a good thing. As for Mystra's followers... Azuth? Or he is demoted to godling too? |
| Kenzuki01-20-08, 02:47 PM | Azuth and Velsharoon didn't die I don't think. They were kinda thrown into the Astral Sea. Savras died though, maybe he sacrificed himself to save Azuth and Velsharoon or something. Maybe Velsharoon and Azuth are wondering the Astral Sea now fighting for survival against epic cosmic beings, imagine the misadventures! |
| Storm_Silverhand01-20-08, 04:01 PM | Heya, Azuth and Velsharoon didn't die I don't think. They were kinda thrown into the Astral Sea. Savras died though, maybe he sacrificed himself to save Azuth and Velsharoon or something. Maybe Velsharoon and Azuth are wondering the Astral Sea now fighting for survival against epic cosmic beings, imagine the misadventures! Yeah, Azuth would have to be always on his guard... The slightest sign of weakness, and Velsharoon will pounce. (Evil is like that, you know.) |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 04:15 PM | I wonder who Azuth and Velsharoon are gonna end up working for? Eventually they're gonna have to find a Lesser God or Greater God to serve, so who could that be? Velsharoon could potentially end up serving Bane, Cyric, or Shar (Although I'd prefer to see him working for a resurrected Myrkul. But that's just my crazy dream). As for Azuth, where'll he end up? He's not really a good fit with any of the other gods. Although I could possibly see Kelemvor taking him in. Both LN and all, and what with Azuth being one of Mystra's servants, he'd have a personal interest in making sure the guy's alright. |
| Dzwood01-20-08, 05:59 PM | Well, its good to know that you don't hate men, sorry if it came across as if I was trying to imply that you do, but the content of your post made it seem as though gender played a very important role in why you loved Midnight (not that this is a bad thing, we all have our tastes) and while I was agreeing with you in that I utterly love her and want her back, I wanted people to know that my reasons for loving Midnight/Mystra were less because of gender and more because of who she was as a person. The word "hate" was directed at my own feelings on this issue (just because I am something of a drama-queen and can exaggerate a little when it comes to emotions), but I can certainly see how you might feel that it was based on my impressions of you, so for that I am sorry. But back to the topic of this thread, I am with you in that it just SUCKS that they have killed her off. I really hope her death will at least be noble and brave and in keeping with the selfless bravery that she exhibited as a human being, etc. I hope they don't have her go out like a wailing wimp or something, and I hope that Midnight's very soul doesn't get annihilated, though it probably will. I have to say that I am also a bit worried about what will happen to Adon and all of the others who died faithful to the various goddesses of Magic and all associated dieties. Since Dweomerheart is no more, does that mean that they all got destroyed as well? That would suck, because that would mean it was always possible, no matter how faithful you were to your god or goddess, that you could still get screwed in the end. Even if you made it to your paradise or heaven upon death. Well in W&M it says that most people dont go to their god after they die. Most of them pass to soem great beyone that the gods dont even understand. Kinda sux really |
| DarkZephyr01-20-08, 06:45 PM | Well in W&M it says that most people dont go to their god after they die. Most of them pass to soem great beyone that the gods dont even understand. Kinda sux really Interesting, as I only read the novels and play the PC games, I wasn't aware of this, I was just basing it on what I read in the books, the whole "waiting on the Fuge(sp) plane for your God to collect you" thing. However, this doesn't ease my mind about Adon and all of those who DID wind up living with Mystra. D&D theology has become extremely henotheistic in all senses of the word that I am aware of in the last few decades. Gods serving greater Gods who serve an Overgod who serves another even greater being, etc, plus the whole dependence on their worshippers thing. Co-existing gods that are not collectively worshipped, but worshipped only by various sects. It all amounts to henotheism rather than straight up vanilla polytheism. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-20-08, 07:05 PM | -I don't think I've ever encountered something like that. I have. It's when, for example, something is so poorly done that it's hilarious. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-20-08, 07:07 PM | deleted |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 07:09 PM | deleted ...and this is how rumors start. :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-20-08, 07:11 PM | ...and this is how rumors start. :) True. I deleted that post.:) For a moment I think they had released another "Countdown to the Realms" article chock-full of bad news... |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 07:15 PM | Well, if you're deleting it, then I'm deleting my quote of it. I don't like to be left behind when it comes to the newest trends. :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-20-08, 08:21 PM | No, don't worry about it, it's not a big deal.:) |
| Kenzuki01-20-08, 08:29 PM | Heya, *blinks* I don't hate men either, and I don't think my post about Mystra had anything in it that would give you that impression. (Yes, I do admit to being a misandrist, but hate is too strong a word. Most of my friends are men.) What is a misandrist? |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 08:32 PM | What is a misandrist? mis“an`drist (mĭs“ăn`drĭst) n. 1. one who hates men. Contrast misogynist and cf. misandry. |
| Kenzuki01-20-08, 08:44 PM | Well there goes my chances of scoring with the Bard of Shadowdale.:weep: |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 08:47 PM | Well there goes my chances of scoring with the Bard of Shadowdale.:weep: Did you ever have a chance? :P |
| Kenzuki01-20-08, 09:12 PM | Did you ever have a chance? :P Tymora only knows. |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 03:00 AM | I have. It's when, for example, something is so poorly done that it's hilarious. -Well, "So bad it's good", and "So bad it's funny" are two different things. :P Did you ever have a chance? :P -Absolutely not. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-21-08, 06:46 AM | Heya, mis“an`drist (mĭs“ăn`drĭst) n. 1. one who hates men. Contrast misogynist and cf. misandry. Aye. Trouble is, I don't think of myself as hating men. I know plenty of nice men (as I have mentioned nearly all of my friends are men, mostly because my hobbies are male centric (role playing, computer games, etc) and I'm just too shy for my own good to strike out beyond my current circle), and since they're friends and good friends at that, I'd even say I love them... Outside of my circle of friends, though, I tend to be blind to the good points of men. What I actually hate is chauvinism, misogyny, and tunnel vision. (Yes, I suffer from tunnel vision too.) I don't think I've explained this too well, but... oh well. It's way off topic. @Kenzuki. If I really were Storm, you'd have about as much of a chance as any good hearted person who came to her attention. ;) (Ed has said in the past that she quite often offers comfort of the physical variety when needed to those who shelter in her home.) |
| Flicker01-21-08, 08:08 AM | I suppose the 1 point I completely fail to understand beyond the 'simplification' of the deities is why change it so drastically. To those who say the realms is overpowered, really? A few chosen, some archmages etc, I seem to remember Mr Greenwood as both the sage and Storm saying, 'the realms is a huge place lass, and i'm not a god, we can only do what we can when we can'. I think he was talking to either Shandril or Sharantyr Or is it just overcrowded? Yes, because most people adventure in the Shining South or unapproachable east or Lantan etc etc???????, no most people play in the Dales/Cormyr or the North/Waterdeep What's my point? Well, balance, AO came about to stop the gods coming in and having a godswar on Faerun, 4e IMHO will make the realms gods like the Greyhawk gods, uncaring about their followers, and for those who say 'but the gods power was linked to their worshippers', think about it, how can it be linked anymore, all the greater gods get everything channeled to them so are they going to be interested about individuals on Faerun, not on your nelly?? That's what make FR unique, it was like Ancient Greece in the gods took direct care of their worshippers, they had to to survive, while been held in check from overstepping the line and the challenge was for the evil gods to break it and the good ones maintain it. Read the harper novel about the Priest of 'Finder Wyvernspur', he's the only priest in the entirety of the realms to worship this guy, there's mention of Shaundakil been a 'forgotten deity' in several 2nd Ed books until he gets more people interested in him. So, why not have Shar as the mistress of loss and forgetfulness, blanket Faerun in something that causes people to forget whom they worship and only the greater gods have the power to maintain the link, that way you could keep the flavour while losing the 'superfluous gods' you wanted to so FR could become the core system? I don't mind change, what i mind is change at the point of a gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Kenzuki01-21-08, 08:39 AM | Yeah it sucks about the deity change up. |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 10:08 AM | Read the harper novel about the Priest of 'Finder Wyvernspur', he's the only priest in the entirety of the realms to worship this guy, there's mention of Shaundakil been a 'forgotten deity' in several 2nd Ed books until he gets more people interested in him. -To be nitpicky, Joel the Rebel Bard was one of two Clerics of Finder Wyvernspur. |
| Flicker01-21-08, 10:23 AM | -To be nitpicky, Joel the Rebel Bard was one of two Clerics of Finder Wyvernspur. I don't mind you been nitpicky Karsus, the overall point is still valid, sucks to be Finder with only 2 priests, now there's an adventure hook when the church of Cyric says,assassination time!!!! |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 10:32 AM | I don't mind you been nitpicky Karsus, the overall point is still valid, sucks to be Finder with only 2 priests, now there's an adventure hook when the church of Cyric says,assassination time!!!! -That's when Finder gets them the hell out of there. Although, at this point in time, I think it's safe to say that Finder has a few more Clerics. A number of years have passed. |
| Flicker01-21-08, 11:12 AM | -That's when Finder gets them the hell out of there. Although, at this point in time, I think it's safe to say that Finder has a few more Clerics. A number of years have passed. Point taken and mine proved, he has to intervene to save his own ass. This begs the question, Mystra can't be killed by Cyric/Shar, as all the people who worship her/believe in her wouldn't just stop doing so and if the power of the god is proportional to the number of worshipper's, technically she should be able to just say, ah ha you can't kill me, I've got 'x' million worshippers who love me. Of course if Cyric/Shar got the portfolio and pretended that would be fine. Still how do you kill a greater god? Ah ha i've stabbed you, no wait that was that avatar, dang now this one, oh drat i give up!!! I suppose what i'm getting at is the rules re god worship as set down on the Tablets of Fate won't apply and can't apply in the realms anymore, so i suppose we should add AO to the casualty list of dead gods, since he got nerfed when the designers broker their own rules for how gods get power? Any of the designer's care to comment on that Terminator plot hole? |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 11:31 AM | This begs the question, Mystra can't be killed by Cyric/Shar, as all the people who worship her/believe in her wouldn't just stop doing so and if the power of the god is proportional to the number of worshipper's, technically she should be able to just say, ah ha you can't kill me, I've got 'x' million worshippers who love me. Of course if Cyric/Shar got the portfolio and pretended that would be fine. -That's only part of the equation. But, if a deity is fundamentally destroyed, like, say, Ibrandul, no amount of worship is randomly going to bring you back. The only loophole I can think of to this is, is Auppenser (Sp?). With him, it's a different case, because he never technically died, so worship could bring him back. But, that's neither here nor there. |
| Flicker01-21-08, 11:35 AM | -That's only part of the equation. But, if a deity is fundamentally destroyed, like, say, Ibrandul, no amount of worship is randomly going to bring you back. The only loophole I can think of to this is, is Auppenser (Sp?). With him, it's a different case, because he never technically died, so worship could bring him back. But, that's neither here nor there. I acknowledge its part of the equation but didn't AO say something about the gods not making war on themselves? Wasn't that the point about the time of troubles, ie all the gods are panicking because they can be killed but once its over they can't accept by removing their worshippers? |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 12:09 PM | -The Time of Troubles was caused when Ao got angry that the deities did not care about their worshippers, and were "slacking off" in their duties. Pretty vague, and rightly so, I guess. |
| DarkZephyr01-22-08, 01:45 PM | -The Time of Troubles was caused when Ao got angry that the deities did not care about their worshippers, and were "slacking off" in their duties. Pretty vague, and rightly so, I guess. Flicker's point, from what I can see, was that Ao was angry that the Gods had become so petty and were fighting with each other so much, that they slacked off. And its true, the whole point of Ao was to end the God fights, yet clearly they did not end. I don't get why AO didn't step in and stop it before it could happen OR either gather Mystra's essence and reform her OR appoint a new Mystra like he did with Midnight. This just makes no sense to me. Although it would have been super dumb to have a fourth Mystra. This should just not ever have happened at all. Its all so stupid. Is this just because a bunch of a-holes complained about the Chosen being too powerful?? This could have been handled so much better. |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 01:58 PM | Flicker's point, from what I can see, was that Ao was angry that the Gods had become so petty and were fighting with each other so much, that they slacked off. -Either way, the Time of Troubes occurred primarily because Ao felt that they were slacking off, and not caring about their mortal worshippers. Since the Time of Troubles, they still have been fighting (Mystra, Cyric and Kelemvor, anyone? Shar, Selūne and Shar, anyone?) but have been paying attention to their worshippers, which is what Ao wanted them to do, as deities are the civil servants of the multiverse- they exist to serve. |
| Dzwood01-22-08, 03:13 PM | But arent the gods suposed to be distant and unknowable now. How dose that jive with...well any of this honestly. If the gods were always distant the ToT seems even more wacked out than it did the first time around. |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 04:17 PM | But arent the gods suposed to be distant and unknowable now. How dose that jive with...well any of this honestly. If the gods were always distant the ToT seems even more wacked out than it did the first time around. -Are the deities distant and unknowable to the average Faerūnian? Yes. Are they distant and unknowable to their priests/priestess'/Clerics? Partially. Are they distant and unknowable to us? No, not really. |
| Kenzuki01-22-08, 04:19 PM | But arent the gods suposed to be distant and unknowable now. How dose that jive with...well any of this honestly. If the gods were always distant the ToT seems even more wacked out than it did the first time around. Why would you want to worship a distant and unknowable god? I sure wouldn't. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-22-08, 04:35 PM | Ironic, Since you have Th Silver Flame as a Avatar. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 04:54 PM | That is, indeed, ironic. :) |
| Storm_Silverhand01-22-08, 05:07 PM | Heya, -Are the deities distant and unknowable to the average Faerūnian? Yes. Are they distant and unknowable to their priests/priestess'/Clerics? Partially. Are they distant and unknowable to us? No, not really. Actually... No, they aren't distant and unknowable. In short, you don't need faith to believe in the gods of Faerun, because you know they're real. No matter if you be a priest or a layman or even an every day peasant farmer. Faith in the gods of Faerun come from more than just belief in their existence (since you don't need faith to believe they exist). It is the belief that they will do as they do, that they will help you when you pray. The essence of what I'm trying to say here is that the gods of Faerun have never been distant and unknowable. We're talking about gods who not only give their priests spells, but everyone on the planet can and often do receive dream visions, omens, and more rarely even sees manifestations of different deities (such as a rosy pink glow around and item or person favoured by Lathander, for instance, not necessarily the appearance of a deity's avatar*) throughout their lives. If the gods are becoming withdrawn in 4th Edition FR, then... *shakes her head* it's not the Forgotten Realms any more... At least not as I know them. * Though plenty of people did see avatars during the Time of Troubles, and that wasn't really all that long ago in the grand scheme of things. |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 05:13 PM | -The average person knows nothing of that. He harvests his tomatos, toils day in, day out, etc. What I meant is that from the perspective of a peasant farmer, a deity is a mysterious, magical, powerful entity. They know what they know, know to say their prayers, and so on, but that's all they really know. The average peasant farmer doesn't know about Torm's lost kingdom, or the Hand of Bane, or that the Chaos Hand took Tyr's hand. The average priest, on the other hand, sees the deities as more accessable. He can literally pray for spells, and be granted them. He knows that Tyr's hand was bitten off by Kezef, or that Lathander caused the Dawn Cataclysm, or that Mystra's divine realm is known as Dweomerheart. And then, of course, there is us. We know, well, mostly everything. :cool: |
| Storm_Silverhand01-22-08, 05:17 PM | Heya, -The average person knows nothing of that. He harvests his tomatos, toils day in, day out, etc. What I meant is that from the perspective of a peasant farmer, a deity is a mysterious, magical, powerful entity. They know what they know, know to say their prayers, and so on, but that's all they really know. The average peasant farmer doesn't know about Torm's lost kingdom, or the Hand of Bane, or that the Chaos Hand took Tyr's hand. The average priest, on the other hand, sees the deities as more accessable. He can literally pray for spells, and be granted them. He knows that Tyr's hand was bitten off by Kezef, or that Lathander caused the Dawn Cataclysm, or that Mystra's divine realm is known as Dweomerheart. And then, of course, there is us. We know, well, mostly everything. :cool: Okay, so I concede that they are mysterious, but mysterious doesn't mean unknowable (since any peasant who wanted to learn about them merely needs to find a priest and ask)... And by no means could they be said to be distant, since it has been proven time and again that the gods of Faerun are meddlers. They like to have their hands in the affairs of mortals... And not just their priests, but all the way down to common farmers and their ilk as well. |
| Kenzuki01-22-08, 05:22 PM | The Silver Flame is cool though. Plus it's the closest religion in Eberron that reminds me of the mideval christian church. In the brief month or so I had the honors of playing in an Eberron game I played a human cleric/exorcist of the Silver Flame. Had alot of fun, I had him wearing a cassock that resembled the catholic clerical clothing yet modifyed with the colors and symbol of the Silver Flame. But if the Realms where the deities are basically people, distant and unknowable is boring. FR gods are fun and interesting in that you can relate to them and even understand them. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-22-08, 05:33 PM | Hey I'm with you there, I' all for LG (I have torm's hand tattooed on my shoulder) and for some reason TSF reminds me of Joan Of Arc (a real life Paladin if you as me). And I agree with Storm in the issue people must know a least a lil bit about the gods |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-22-08, 05:35 PM | But if the Realms where the deities are basically people, distant and unknowable is boring. FR gods are fun and interesting in that you can relate to them and even understand them. In my experience, a setting where the gods are "basically people" usually DOESN'T have them as distant and unknowable. When the gods are "basically people", they usually wind up being relatable (for better or for worse). As far as "unknowable" goes...there is probably a lot that the gods don't want mortals to know (at least, that's the vibe I get from Ed's comments on the subject). |
| Kenzuki01-22-08, 05:39 PM | In my experience, a setting where the gods are "basically people" usually DOESN'T have them as distant and unknowable. When the gods are "basically people", they usually wind up being relatable (for better or for worse). As far as "unknowable" goes...there is probably a lot that the gods don't want mortals to know (at least, that's the vibe I get from Ed's comments on the subject). I'm sorry I typed that out wrong. What I ment was that I didn't think that the Realms deities were distant and unknowable because they were "basically people". But yeah some gods do appear to be more secretive than others. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-22-08, 06:01 PM | I'm sorry I typed that out wrong. What I ment was that I didn't think that the Realms deities were distant and unknowable because they were "basically people". But yeah some gods do appear to be more secretive than others. Like Shar.;) |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 06:14 PM | Hey I'm with you there, I' all for LG (I have torm's hand tattooed on my shoulder) and for some reason TSF reminds me of Joan Of Arc (a real life Paladin if you as me). -It's true, he does. He's crazy like that. ;) |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-22-08, 06:57 PM | I'll post it as soon as My laptop is fixed :D |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 08:01 PM | Why would you want to worship a distant and unknowable god? I sure wouldn't. That's exactly how I perceive the Christian God, and I worship him still the same.;) The more you know about a god, the more mortal and undeserving it seems. A mysterious being leaves you to wonder about it's true nature, and in the process, you can discover more about that god and yourself.:cool: Of course the mentality is far different on Faerun (and even on earth, my religious outlook was always unorthodox). |
| Khaelieth01-22-08, 08:44 PM | That's exactly how I perceive the Christian God, and I worship him still the same.;) Holy five! *High fives* |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 08:47 PM | Holy five! *High fives* "argh, by Asmodeus, it burns, IT BURNS!!!":weep: |
| Khaelieth01-22-08, 08:51 PM | "argh, by Asmodeus, it burns, IT BURNS!!!":weep: Religious five! *High fives* |
| Kenzuki01-22-08, 08:58 PM | That's exactly how I perceive the Christian God, and I worship him still the same.;) The more you know about a god, the more mortal and undeserving it seems. A mysterious being leaves you to wonder about it's true nature, and in the process, you can discover more about that god and yourself.:cool: Of course the mentality is far different on Faerun (and even on earth, my religious outlook was always unorthodox). Sounds more like Allah than the God of the Old and New Testaments to me. Alot of people had very personal experiences with God in those texts and while they certainly didn't know everything about him he was far from distant and unknowable. Especially once you got into the NT and Christ. Just my thoughts of course. |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 09:02 PM | Sounds more like Allah than the God of the Old and New Testaments to me. Alot of people had very personal experiences with God in those texts and while they certainly didn't know everything about him he was far from distant and unknowable. Especially once you got into the NT and Christ. Just my thoughts of course. I interpert the Bible metaphorically, so it dosen't matter to me any way. Yes, it does sound more like Allah, who technically is the same god as Yaweh. Personally, I woudn't take the word of a bunch of insane, half-naked old Jewish men literally, but that's just me.:) |
| Kenzuki01-22-08, 09:07 PM | I interpert the Bible metaphorically, so it dosen't matter to me any way. Yes, it does sound more like Allah, who technically is the same god as Yaweh. Personally, I woudn't take the word of a bunch of insane, half-naked old Jewish men literally, but that's just me.:) Well I respectfully have to disagree on both of those points, but let's not sidetrack this thread hehe. |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 09:08 PM | -Um, yeah, Allah is Adonai. Though, a lot of that seems to be a retcon, as Allah did exist as some sort of lunar deity in texts that predate Islam. |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 09:13 PM | -Um, yeah, Allah is Adonai. Though, a lot of that seems to be a retcon, as Allah did exist as some sort of lunar deity in texts that predate Islam. No, that is another god whose name starts with a U but I don't currently recall. Allah had existed as an all-powerful creator spirit among the Bedine tribes of Pre-Islam Arabia but was never truly given any attention. Kenzuki, you can believe whatever you want, it's all good:) |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 09:22 PM | -Hubal. That's just a theory, however, and sources in the Koran seem to contradict it (not that that necessarily means anything): When Abu Sufyan wanted to leave he went to the top of the mountain and shouted loudly, saying: "You have done a fine work; victory in war goes by turns. Today in exchange for the day (of Badr). Show your superiority, Hubal," i.e. vindicate your religion. The apostle told Umar to get up and answer him and say: "Allah is most high and most glorious. We are not equal. Our dead are in paradise; your dead are in hell. |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 09:39 PM | -Hubal. That's just a theory, however, and sources in the Koran seem to contradict it (not that that necessarily means anything): Bah, it's what I learned from the AP course. |
| fretrockcrusher01-23-08, 01:45 AM | -That's right. I forgot about all those old people who play D&D. ;) to all it may concern: 4th ed is nothing but a far sided joke gone bad and it a remake of 2nd ed. 2nd will be the best in my humble oppion. |
| Dzwood01-23-08, 01:52 AM | I dont think the portfolio system and Ao's edicts at the end of the ToT alow the gods to remain as distant as those of Eberon or even as moody distant versions of what we know now. Heck many of the gods preseumably still have mortal relatives running around. "My Uncle Finder is a god" "So my aunt Midnight is a bigger god!!!" |
| Kenzuki01-23-08, 11:38 AM | "Your Aunt Midnight is DEAD! So no, my uncle is a bigger god!" |
| MaskedOne01-23-08, 12:45 PM | Death in FR is not a career ending injury, his aunt will be bigger when the time is right. I'd say my Aunt but it would require an excessive degree of highly unlikely deception and temporal manipulation for Midnight to be my Aunt. |
| DarkZephyr01-23-08, 01:34 PM | Death in FR is not a career ending injury, his aunt will be bigger when the time is right. I just hope it happens fairly soon, since I would prefer not to be on my death bed when it happens. |
| MaskedOne01-23-08, 01:35 PM | Determination of that is not completely within my power. |
| Meldread01-23-08, 01:39 PM | Please, gods no. I cannot imagine why in the hell Wizard's would raise Midnight. It completely cheapens her death in every way imaginable AND - AND - they have already said there will be a 5th Edition. Therefore, if the trend continues, she will be killed AGAIN in the future. So no, please do not dig up the corpse. Let the dead stay buried. If people want to raise her in their home games, more power to them, but canonically, let her stay dead. |
| Lord Karsus01-23-08, 01:43 PM | It completely cheapens her death in every way imaginable AND - AND - they have already said there will be a 5th Edition. -Have they really? Geeze, why not just skip 4, and go straight from 3 to 5, then? :rolleyes: |
| MaskedOne01-23-08, 01:51 PM | Please, gods no. I cannot imagine why in the hell Wizard's would raise Midnight. It completely cheapens her death in every way imaginable AND - AND - they have already said there will be a 5th Edition. Therefore, if the trend continues, she will be killed AGAIN in the future. So no, please do not dig up the corpse. Let the dead stay buried. If people want to raise her in their home games, more power to them, but canonically, let her stay dead. We're pretty much going to agree to disagree here. Since I disapprove of her death on all levels anyway and have yet to see an objective gain to it that can't be acquired through other means, bringing her back is just fixing a move that was idiotic to begin with as far as I'm concerned but then I am profoundly biased on this matter. |
| Meldread01-23-08, 02:31 PM | Have they really? Geeze, why not just skip 4, and go straight from 3 to 5, then? Yes, they said it at the same time they announced 4th Edition. It's the primary reason I am not even going to bother buying 4th Edition core material. I am switching to GURPS. I can't afford and have no interest in learning almost completely new rule sets every few years. (Not to mention that I fundamentally disagree with some of the very core and basic aspects of how D&D works, and the types of games it produces.) We're pretty much going to agree to disagree here. Since I disapprove of her death on all levels anyway and have yet to see an objective gain to it that can't be acquired through other means, bringing her back is just fixing a move that was idiotic to begin with as far as I'm concerned but then I am profoundly biased on this matter. I realize that other people feel differently and even like Mystra. However, I just can't imagine a scenario where bringing her back doesn't cheapen the character at all. I liked Khelben but I would not want him brought back to life - it would cheapen his death. It could be argued that Mystra's death was cheap to begin with, but the fact of the matter is we don't even know what happened. All we know is who were involved and what happened afterward (and even then the details are sketchy). The problem with Mystra's death was the way it was revealed which was cheap. Had she died in a novel I think people would have had a better time accepting it - as people accepted Khelben's death. My problem with Mystra was never really a problem with her directly. It was her favorable treatment to the exclusion of other deities. I never found her particularly interesting over all, and I felt that she was unfairly elevated to a status that was beyond her means - by the Realm's Authors. Most people viewed her second only to Ao in power, and there was (and still is) a perception that Mystra was invincible and could do anything that didn't directly draw Ao's wrath. Too many novels and too much of the lore became Mystra-Centric either directly or indirectly. Directly where she might intervene in the world, or indirectly where her near limitless number of Chosen did her work. (And we have to keep in mind we STILL do not have a complete list of all her Chosen - there are more out there that we don't even know about.) I personally would have liked to have seen Mystra's Chosen limited to three or four, and the whole thing approached differently. However, in the end they started to become so numerous that they could have just been called the Justice League of the Forgotten Realm's. There are many, many interesting deities in the setting that were completely ignored because of Mystra's favoritism - and her ability to practically suck the oxygen out of every book she or her surrogates appeared in. Lathander, Chauntea, Torm, Helm, Auril, Kossuth, and many others have so many interesting stories that were never explored. ...and to me, that's the real shame. It is one of the reasons I am glad she is dead, along with most of her Chosen. Bringing her back will by necessity put her once again at the center of the setting. |
| Stigger01-23-08, 04:42 PM | I'd agree with the sentiment, if not the conclusion. She's not going anywhere in my home campaign. |
| DarkZephyr01-23-08, 04:46 PM | Yes, they said it at the same time they announced 4th Edition. It's the primary reason I am not even going to bother buying 4th Edition core material. I am switching to GURPS. I can't afford and have no interest in learning almost completely new rule sets every few years. (Not to mention that I fundamentally disagree with some of the very core and basic aspects of how D&D works, and the types of games it produces.) I realize that other people feel differently and even like Mystra. However, I just can't imagine a scenario where bringing her back doesn't cheapen the character at all. I liked Khelben but I would not want him brought back to life - it would cheapen his death. ........... ...and to me, that's the real shame. It is one of the reasons I am glad she is dead, along with most of her Chosen. Bringing her back will by necessity put her once again at the center of the setting. Since you are so fired up and thrilled that she's dead anyway, I cannot imagine why you would care if the character was cheapened or if her death was cheapened. I'd agree with the sentiment, if not the conclusion. She's not going anywhere in my home campaign. Since I only read the novels and play the PC Games, I have no home campaign that I can keep her alive in, and after this, I WON'T be. I had strongly been thinking about starting to play the PnP game, but for me, there is no point now. Everything good about the setting has been sucked out and destroyed. And I don't JUST mean Mystra. So much more is being changed too. |
| MarkusTay6301-23-08, 04:51 PM | Deleted - wrong forum |
| Stigger01-23-08, 04:59 PM | Well, I'd strongly recommend PnP D&D... invest in 3.x while you still can and buy a bunch of 4$ pdf's from Paizo or something for the 2e lore. The setting is still there, and really, as LK says, you only really need the core books to really play. The mechanics aren't as important as the story and fun, so really, 4e shouldn't be an impediment to much of anything if we don't let it become so. |
| Meldread01-23-08, 05:59 PM | I agree with Stigger, although I personally would avoid investing in D&D all together. You can use FR lore in conjunction with other gaming systems. There are others out there that are vastly superior. I am unsure if I will fully convert over to the 4E Realms or not. At the end of the day, though I'm a lore junkie. I am certain I am at least getting the 4E FRCS. |
| Flicker01-24-08, 06:26 AM | Hmm, just a thought, How come Savras didn't notice something as big as the Spellplague coming, yet Alaundo manages to notice??? Would there be a slight hole in this deity's powers somewhere? Boy will Mystra be ****** when she gets back. 'For gods sake Savras, you predicted, the Dawn Cataclysm, The Time of Troubles, and you couldn't even say, Oi watch out Cyric's behind you??????' BTW, the point I was making about the TOT was that AO punishes the gods for not caring about their worshippers by making them humbler (avatar) and having the ability to die, he then instigates the link that they are as powerful as they are worshipped(followed). Me thinks in the rush to make FR the 4e base system, its issues like this that have just been thrown on the scrapheap. Better to have made the 4e rules generic and not tried to base them on a game world. |
| Kenzuki01-24-08, 07:25 AM | Which is more powerful? The senses of the Demigod of Truth and Divination. Or the powers of the Greater Gods of Lies, Deception, Secrets, and Illusions? |
| Lord Karsus01-24-08, 08:44 AM | How come Savras didn't notice something as big as the Spellplague coming, yet Alaundo manages to notice??? Would there be a slight hole in this deity's powers somewhere? Boy will Mystra be ****** when she gets back. 'For gods sake Savras, you predicted, the Dawn Cataclysm, The Time of Troubles, and you couldn't even say, Oi watch out Cyric's behind you??????' -The haze of the plothook shielded it from his view. -When pressed for an explanation, ever, I am sure that it somehow involved Shar blocking it from proverbial view. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-24-08, 12:05 PM | Which is more powerful? The senses of the Demigod of Truth and Divination. Or the powers of the Greater Gods of Lies, Deception, Secrets, and Illusions? Neither party was acting in a vacumm, though. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-24-08, 04:57 PM | Heya, Neither party was acting in a vacumm, though. Indeed. I just don't buy that Mystra had no idea what was up, and so was taken by surprise... I mean, it's not like the death of the Weave wouldn't effect the faithful of all the gods of Faerun, and there no way that between Shar and Cyric that they could block every single deity. Mystra has plenty of allies, therefore she should have been warned. (Triangulation of tribulations would easily have pin pointed a general time when it all went to hell in a handbasket...) A warned Mystra would never have been defeated by Cyric in her home plane. |
| Kenzuki01-24-08, 05:06 PM | She wasn't warned. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-24-08, 05:25 PM | Heya, She wasn't warned. She should have been. The point I was trying to make is - Cyric and Shar don't have enough power to cover every single contingency. Mystra or one of her allies, or one of her allies allies, or any deity with an ounce of sense, would have been able to say "hey there's going to be a problem with magic". Every single deity is effected by the Spellplague to one degree or another - for example, the face of Toril becomes mutable, which means every nature deity would know something was going on. Other deities who have arcane spell casters amongst their faithful find some of them going insane, and their magic going haywire. All of this points to one thing - the Weave (and the explanation that they might all think it was an epic spell is frankly ludicrous, as a spell that would have that much effect on the world would a) need a nation of spellcasters to cast and b) would need Mystra's direct approval, I don't doubt). When they have enough examples ahead of time of things going wrong, it wouldn't take a godlike intelligence to "triangulate" them and work out approximately when things started to go wrong. Cyric and Shar, if they were able to block every deity, would give away something was up just by the idea that none of the gods can sense anything related to anything for a certain period of time, and they'd all be wary. I also don't think it would take a godlike intelligence on the behalf of Mystra in order to think of who might be behind the trouble - Cyric most likely, and Shar next likely after that. |
| Kenzuki01-24-08, 05:41 PM | Would all the other gods know about the Spellplague? How would they know that here comes Shar/Cyric going to kill Mystra? |
| Lord Karsus01-24-08, 05:43 PM | Heya, Indeed. I just don't buy that Mystra had no idea what was up, and so was taken by surprise... I mean, it's not like the death of the Weave wouldn't effect the faithful of all the gods of Faerun, and there no way that between Shar and Cyric that they could block every single deity. Mystra has plenty of allies, therefore she should have been warned. (Triangulation of tribulations would easily have pin pointed a general time when it all went to hell in a handbasket...) A warned Mystra would never have been defeated by Cyric in her home plane. -That's why it makes much sense to hypothesize that Velsharoon was somehow involved in things. By canon, Cyric should not have been able to enter Dweomerheart. He'd need permission. That's why a deity's Realm is their safehaven. For example, Gruumsh was barred from Arvandor in Evermeet: Island of the Elves. -We already know that Velsharoon didn't like Mystra or Azuth much, and were only allies through necessity. We also know that Shar was activley courting Velsharoon, and that he was intrigued, due to the Shadow Weave and all. It's possible that Velsharoon allowed Cyric into Dweomerheart, allowing him to bypass the safeguards and whatever that prevent a deity's enemy from barging into his/her/its home realm. |
| Kenzuki01-24-08, 05:45 PM | That sounds plausible. Maybe he killed Savras or something to conceal his plots? |
| Lord Karsus01-24-08, 05:53 PM | That sounds plausible. Maybe he killed Savras or something to conceal his plots? -And if he didn't kill Savras, why didn't he die? After all, both were lesser deities (or demideities, or whatever). He and Azuth were both shunted to the Astral Plane, while Savras simply ceased to be, when Dweomerheart collapsed. Hmm...Suspicious? :detect: |
| Storm_Silverhand01-25-08, 12:44 AM | Heya, -And if he didn't kill Savras, why didn't he die? After all, both were lesser deities (or demideities, or whatever). He and Azuth were both shunted to the Astral Plane, while Savras simply ceased to be, when Dweomerheart collapsed. Hmm...Suspicious? :detect: The destruction of Dweomerheart would be quite destructive enough on its own to kill a deity. While it sounds plausible that Velsharoon was involved in letting Cyric in, it still doesn't solve the problem of a ton of gods knowing something was up ahead of time. |
| Meldread01-25-08, 01:30 AM | Storm - It's fantasy, so it's pretty easy to make up a reason. Shar managed to create an epic artifact that amplified her power over the domain of secrets long enough for Cyric to slip in and get the deed done. Or Shar and Cyric working together created an epic artifact that essentially allowed Shar's mastery of Secrets and Cyric's Mastery over Illusion to be amplified to the point where no one took notice. ...and if they did take notice then Shar's domain over Forgetfulness made them forget! Maybe Shar's divine rank bumped up to 19 or 20 due to the Shadow Weave! (Assuming that either Cyric, Velsharoon or both switched over to the Shadow Weave. I have to believe that Cyric switched which was one of the reason he was able to get so close to Mystra.) Maybe funky things were going on with the Weave beforehand. Shar had the Karsus Stone, and maybe was using it to somehow fiddle with the Weave and Mystra was distracted by that - everyone knew Shar was behind it... what they didn't know was that it was only a distraction. Shar had persuaded Velsharoon to assist Cyric into getting into Dweomerheart - and Mystra was preoccupied with Shar's attack upon the Weave - that is when he struck and killed her. There are an endless number of things that could have happened that made it possible, but as of this time there is too much information lacking. However, I do believe it is 100% plausible that two greater deities, who were both on the rise, working together, with powerful and complimentary portfolios, could pull something off on this scale. Mystra was not invulnerable or invincible, especially considering that she was a newly arisen deity. |
| Meldread01-25-08, 02:39 AM | I should also say - If they do not give the details on what happened, and I choose to play in the 4E Forgotten Realm's, then I am going to outline what happens in my campaign. 1. Shar courts Velsharoon and Cyric. Cyric switches to the Shadow Weave. All of his priests begin to receive their spells via the Shadow Weave, and wizards who worship him begin to discover its secrets through him and his clergy. Velsharoon wants to switch but Shar fills him in on the plan and urges him to wait. 2. Shar leads Cyric and Velsharoon to believe that it is her intent to kill Mystra and become the new goddess of magic. Cyric thinks he can betray Shar and take Mystra's power for himself. Velsharoon is promised Azoth's place. 3. After Cyric switched to the Shadow Weave, and the influx of Shadow Weave users - her divine rank increases to 19 or 20. Mystra wants to take the Shadow Weave from Shar but is afraid of what it might do to her, so she hesitates. 4. Shar has in her possession the Karsus Stone, which is anchored to the Weave. Using this she strikes DIRECTLY at Mystra's very being. Essentially she's attacking and killing Mystra long distance style. Wonky things begin to happen to the Weave. Savras attempt's to use his power to determine what will happen and is driven insane. 5. Mystra has fits of delusions and confusion. Selune in avatar form comes to her side and helps her steady herself. Selune and Mystra join forces to help strike back at Shar. A long range battle takes place between the three deities and there seems to be a stalemate. 6. Mystra determines that she has no choice but to take the Shadow Weave from Shar, but in order to do it she summons Azuth and Velsharoon to her side. Selune, Azuth and Velsharoon are there - but what they did not know is that Velsharoon had opened a portal into Dweomerheart that let Cyric slip in. 7. Shar increases the strength of her attacks, and Mystra braces herself as all the deities together begin to strike back at Shar. As that happens (and they are distracted) Velsharoon abruptly stops. Azuth takes notice, but at that very second Cyric is there and lands a killing blow to Mystra. 8. Cyric thinks he can absorb Mystra's power, but as Mystra dies she quickly unloads most of her divine essence into Selune. (Thereby making Selune a Greater Deity.) Selune, Velsharoon, Cyric, and Azuth are thrown out of Dweomerheart as it is destroyed. Savras was bound within the Plane by Mystra and Selune until his madness could be cured. He dies with the plane. 9. Suddenly the very fabric of the cosmos becomes mutable and begins to fall apart. Cyric and Velsharoon realize belatedly that Shar had no intention of taking Mystra's role at all - but to destroy the Weave as the Shadow Weave is similarly destroyed. (She never bothered to tell them that they were actually linked together, damn her and her secrets!) Magic for a time ceases to exist as everything seems to begin to come to an end - an ultimate achievement for Shar - the end of all things. Ao is also destroyed as the cosmos becomes mutable. 10. Just as things seem to be reaching their apex Selune - as a Greater Deity equal to Shar in power - with the assistance of Lathander, Chauntea and other deities - manage to counter things and stabilize them. Cyric has retreated into the Supreme Throne to lick his wounds - as Shar laughs and abandons him to suffer the worst fates. He basically hides there knowing that there are not many deities who can enter and challenge him. The gods decide that his punishment therefore will be imprisonment - they will starve him of his worshipers. 11. Meanwhile (as the above is going on), with Ao out of the way and the world going bonkers, and most believing that the end has finally arrived Shar's power is growing. She is rising in power so rapidly that she is nearly an Overdeity - achieving enough power where her dream of ending everything can finally become a reality. However, just in the nick of time Selune manages to arrive on the scene with Lathander and other deities to do battle with her. During that battle large numbers of deities perish (some known and many unknown) - Tyr might be one of them, and it can account for all the weird changes in 4E in regard to deities - but ultimately Selune's side is victorious. 12. Selune's side manages to imprison Shar similar to what was done to Cyric, but she ultimately escapes her prison shortly thereafter. With the destruction of Ao a number of deities come together to forge new cosmic law. These are laws that bind deities in a world without an Overdeity, as well as to handle how magic shall work. From there... the rest of the 4E changes can slide in rather easily. Why does Talos = Gruumsh? Because Gruumsh died fighting Shar, and Talos is now masquerading as him. Same for most of the other deities. Ao did not intervene in any of this because cosmic laws forbid it. He could not intervene directly with something so long as a deity was acting within their portfolio. Cyric as the Lord of Murder therefore was doing what he was supposed to do, as well as Shar as the Lady of Loss. I might also find a way to wiggle Jergal in there somehow, so I can also bump off Kelemvor and have Jergal take his place. Jergal and Shar had a thing going on back in the days of Netheril (romantic), and I theorize that he set up Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul as stooges to take a fall. We know the Time of Troubles was connected to what happened, and Jergal likely played a role. He is a god of fatalism so like Shar he wants to see the end of everything (indeed he is called the Lord of the End of Everything for a reason). They are natural allies, and I would love to see Jergal gaming the table to assist Shar over tens of thousands of years. Personally, that solves a lot of problems that I had going into 4E FR. The main (Greater) deities I would have left alive: Chauntea Bane Cyric Lathander Oghma Shar Sune Talos Gond Ilmater Selune Waukeen Torm Eilistraee (as the Masked Lady) Lolth Moradin Corellon I would have Bane and Torm split up the War portfolio each personifying a different aspect. I would also have Tymora and Beshaba die, with Selune taking Tymora's portfolios and Shar taking Beshaba's portfolios. The rest of the deities would become servitor deities as per the way things will work in 4E. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-25-08, 06:11 AM | Heya, Meldread - Bravo! That was an interesting read. :) Not something I'd have happen in my own campaign (since I like Mystra, Eilistraee, and Tymora, two of which die and you've replaced Eilistraee with Eilisraun the Imposter ;)), but definitely far far far better than what we've been given by WotC thus far. |
| Kenzuki01-25-08, 07:31 AM | I'm pretty sure Ao cannot die. |
| Lord Karsus01-25-08, 07:52 AM | While it sounds plausible that Velsharoon was involved in letting Cyric in, it still doesn't solve the problem of a ton of gods knowing something was up ahead of time. -Why would a ton of deities know something was up ahead of time? I read your reasoning, and it doesn't give any expanation as to why other deities would know what's up. I'm pretty sure Ao cannot die. -As far as we know, right. |
| Meldread01-25-08, 04:25 PM | Storm- Yeah, I figured since WotC is going to kill off deities and stuff that it would make sense for Beshaba's power / portfolios to go to Shar and Tymora's power / portfolios to go to Selune. All four deities share similar back stories (Shar and Selune are twin sisters at war with one another... so are Tymora and Beshaba.) I actually favor "Eilisraun" over the current Eilistraee - I like the concept of the Masked Lady, and I am hoping that she absorbs Mask. I think she could be an interesting deity to worship, both as a Drow and non-Drow. Kenzuki / LK - I predicated that upon the thought: Ao = the Cosmos. He's kinda the guy who is cosmic law. I figure that in order to keep Ao from running rampant and doing whatever he wanted there had to be certain laws he was bound too - things to prevent him from intervening. One of the laws that I think might be in place is that he cannot intervene so long as a deity is acting within their portfolios. I predicated Shar and Cyric's actions on the fact that they were doing just that - acting within their portfolios. Therefore, Ao could not intervene to stop them from killing Mystra and destroying the Weave. Shar is a very, very old deity so it seems logical that she would have also predicted what would have happened - that she would have planned for things to happen in such a way as to achieve her ultimate goal. If Ao = the Cosmos, and it becomes mutable... then Ao also becomes mutable, and maybe weak enough to either self-destruct or be destroyed by Cyric / Shar. They both hate Ao so there is little reason they would not work together to axe him if it came down to it, especially if they could force him into a weakened non-overdeity state. Although when I wrote the above I basically assumed that when the Great Tree Cosmology was destroyed - Ao died with it. However, he wasn't the only deity that died, I am guessing that the elemental deities died as well (hence the formation of the Elemental Tempest). |
| Storm_Silverhand01-25-08, 04:54 PM | Heya, -Why would a ton of deities know something was up ahead of time? I read your reasoning, and it doesn't give any expanation as to why other deities would know what's up. Okay... how's this... 1) All of the nature deities would know something was wrong because the land becomes mutable under skies of blue fire... 2) In addition to their portfolio sense, deities also get a sense of their faithful. For those of their faithful that live in mutable lands, see 1. I'd have to say that nearly all of the deities in the Realms would be worshiped by at least one arcane spellcaster (that is Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, and any other class that uses arcane magic - Mystra hardly has the monopoly on arcane spellcasting faithful) - as spellcasters are going to be effected in one way or another by the spellplague, there would be another hint. 3) Mystra is not the only deity of magic in the Realms, all of them would notice something was up (Isis, Thoth, Corellon, Selune, etc). They'd have these hints for a varying amount of time before the death of Mystra. Surely some of them would give her a hint that something is going to go wrong with magic? |
| Lord Karsus01-25-08, 04:56 PM | They'd have these hints for a varying amount of time before the death of Mystra. Surely some of them would give her a hint that something is going to go wrong with magic? -I'm sorry. I thought you were saying that various others would know of Shar and Cyric's plot in advance. |
| Kenzuki01-25-08, 05:55 PM | Until she died though nothing would happen so how would they know? Oh yeah and I still doubt anything could hurt the Overgod. I mean he pretty much made every other god his *^^&$ with a single command. Since he made Realmspace what if Realmspace collapsed if he died? |
| Lord Karsus01-25-08, 05:59 PM | Until she died though nothing would happen so how would they know? -Yes, that was my original point, too. Since he made Realmspace what if Realmspace collapsed if he died? -It's a possibility. We just don't know. Realmspace could theoretically shatter. Ao could simply cease to exist, and things would go on as normal, just without Ao. Anything is possible when talking about the unknown. |
| Meldread01-25-08, 06:17 PM | Realmspace could theoretically shatter. Isn't that basically what happened? Entire planes imploded and were destroyed. The very surface of Toril itself... no one quite knows what happened yet. We're talking huge and far reaching cosmological destruction on an unimaginable scale. That's basically how we went from 3.5 Cosmology to 4E Cosmology. Everything became mutable. It is hard to imagine Ao still being around in 4E after all this happens. It would be the equivalent of Emperor Nero playing his harp while all of Rome burns. A logical conclusion to make is that when Realmspace Cosmology imploded it killed Ao, or at least weakened him to a point where he either could be killed or do nothing about it. |
| GreenKnight01-25-08, 06:19 PM | Isn't that basically what happened? Entire planes imploded and were destroyed. The very surface of Toril itself... no one quite knows what happened yet. We're talking huge and far reaching cosmological destruction on an unimaginable scale. That's basically how we went from 3.5 Cosmology to 4E Cosmology. Everything became mutable. Aren't they just retconning it? |
| Kenzuki01-25-08, 06:19 PM | Isn't that basically what happened? Entire planes imploded and were destroyed. The very surface of Toril itself... no one quite knows what happened yet. We're talking huge and far reaching cosmological destruction on an unimaginable scale. That's basically how we went from 3.5 Cosmology to 4E Cosmology. Everything became mutable. It is hard to imagine Ao still being around in 4E after all this happens. It would be the equivalent of Emperor Nero playing his harp while all of Rome burns. A logical conclusion to make is that when Realmspace Cosmology imploded it killed Ao, or at least weakened him to a point where he either could be killed or do nothing about it. I VERY much doubt that the Spellplague changed the cosmology. That was a retcon I think. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-25-08, 07:41 PM | Heya, Until she died though nothing would happen so how would they know? Because gods can see into the future. |
| Kenzuki01-25-08, 07:48 PM | Heya, Because gods can see into the future. Then that would mean that no god could ever kill another god because it would always know what was going to happen and counter it. Apparantly, this is not the case. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-25-08, 07:49 PM | I VERY much doubt that the Spellplague changed the cosmology. That was a retcon I think. Well, it is mentioned in the GHotR that after Mystra dies, the planes go haywire. However, the Feywild seems to have been retconned in as per the recent Moonshae timeline. |
| Meldread01-25-08, 09:12 PM | There will be some retconning I think, but as Rino pointed out some of the planes disappearing / imploding / exploding is already cannon. So… yeah… some funky stuff went down when the Weave was destroyed. |
| XHereticX01-25-08, 09:17 PM | Hmm, my simple theory was that Mystra wasn't acting according to her porfolio so Ao enabled Cyric and Shar (who were furfilling their porfolios quite effectively) to take her out. After all, having a recently ascended Neutral Good individual take over as custodian of all magic in relatively unstable times does have it's drawbacks. Or maybe Ao just tired of all the Weave/Shadow Weave nonsense and decided to reshuffle things a little. Whatever the cause, it logically should be rooted in the overdeity because Mystra just has far too many resources and allies to be caught unaware. |
| Meldread01-25-08, 11:58 PM | Heretic I disagree for a few reasons. 1. As I sketched out above, Mystra herself may have been fully aware that she was under attack. Shar could have (theoretically) attacked the Weave directly via the Karsus Stone. Mystra could be distracted and it is at that point that Cyric kills her. 2. All of Mystra's allies also have enemies of their own. There is only so much they can do to help her, anyway, because if they do too much they leave their backs vulnerable to attack by their own enemies. There is pretty much a cold war in the Faerunian Pantheon. Everyone has everyone else in check - in balance - and if someone oversteps their bounds then they become vulnerable to attack. 3. Additionally, I don't think Mystra would want to let it be widely known that she was in danger. If tons of deities begin to flock to her side to help, it puts up a big giant sign over her head. That's the equivalent of cutting yourself so you bleed... in a pool full of sharks. Shar and Cyric are not the only deities who would like to knock off Mystra. 4. Most of Mystra's allies also have to deal with their own worshipers and their own problems. They have their own portfolios that they have to attend to - they can't just drop everything to defend her - Ao wouldn't allow it. (After all, ignoring worshipers and acting outside of portfolios is one of the reasons the Time of Troubles happened.) There are not that many deities who could reasonably justify to Ao for involving themselves. Selune, Lathander, and Chauntea (who is often forgotten) come to mind. However, Lathander could easily be wrapped up in his whole Risen Sun thing, and Chauntea - if she isn't forgotten (again!) - could be dealing with other problems more directly affecting her. Selune, however, I think would definitely come to her side if she realizes Shar is involved. That being said, though, I do not think there is much Selune could do to contribute aside from advice and moral support. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 12:14 AM | Heretic I disagree for a few reasons. 1. As I sketched out above, Mystra herself may have been fully aware that she was under attack. Shar could have (theoretically) attacked the Weave directly via the Karsus Stone. Mystra could be distracted and it is at that point that Cyric kills her. The Karsestone. Does Shar even have it in her possesion? Also, how does the clumsy and inefficient Cyric manage to enter the picture so quickly with Mystra on full alert with the attack of Shar. By then Mystra should have been able to hold off the assasination failure long enough to get at least Selune over to help. [/QUOTE]2. All of Mystra's allies also have enemies of their own. There is only so much they can do to help her, anyway, because if they do too much they leave their backs vulnerable to attack by their own enemies. There is pretty much a cold war in the Faerunian Pantheon. Everyone has everyone else in check - in balance - and if someone oversteps their bounds then they become vulnerable to attack.[/QUOTE] One characteristic of the good deities that sets them apart from evil deities is that whatever their reservations, whenever a danger to the greater good arises, they are able to band together to fight it despite their "personal problems." Good redeems itself, while evil consumes itself. The good deities can generally count themselves as having their backs covered by each other, while the bickering and divided evil deities, despite so called alliances, would be too paranoid and unfocused to really take advantage of splinter opportunities and make a true impact due to the whole alliance system, plus the fact that the evil deities are always at each other's throats as well (think, does Bane really want Cyric to gain such power and prestige). Therefore Mystra would have gotten more support than she needed, and most deities would detect the wrongness immediatly with the attack. [/QUOTE]3. Additionally, I don't think Mystra would want to let it be widely known that she was in danger. If tons of deities begin to flock to her side to help, it puts up a big giant sign over her head. That's the equivalent of cutting yourself so you bleed... in a pool full of sharks. Shar and Cyric are not the only deities who would like to knock off Mystra.[/QUOTE] I've partially mentioned this above as well, a lot of deities would like to knock off Mystra, but a lot of deities would also not want to see the weave collapse and the world to fall into chaos. A lot of deities would not want to see Shar and Cyric gain power. A lot of those deities are the same deities that may not be very friendly to Mystra but understand the dire consequences (for the world, their worshippers, and themselves) too well to actually act. [/QUOTE]4. Most of Mystra's allies also have to deal with their own worshipers and their own problems. They have their own portfolios that they have to attend to - they can't just drop everything to defend her - Ao wouldn't allow it. (After all, ignoring worshipers and acting outside of portfolios is one of the reasons the Time of Troubles happened.)[/QUOTE] Like I have said, when a large threat to the greater good arises, good deities are able to band together and take decisive action. [/QUOTE]There are not that many deities who could reasonably justify to Ao for involving themselves. Selune, Lathander, and Chauntea (who is often forgotten) come to mind. However, Lathander could easily be wrapped up in his whole Risen Sun thing, and Chauntea - if she isn't forgotten (again!) - could be dealing with other problems more directly affecting her. Selune, however, I think would definitely come to her side if she realizes Shar is involved. That being said, though, I do not think there is much Selune could do to contribute aside from advice and moral support.[/QUOTE] I can understand Lathander in his current moral dilemma not being able to intervene, but Chauntea and Selune are Mystra's oldest and most powerful allies and they more than anyone else understand the importance of the weave the the consequences of it's destruction. Plus they are fierce enemies of Shar and would gladly take any amount of time to prevent her from achieving any gains. |
| Meldread01-26-08, 02:58 AM | The Karsestone. Does Shar even have it in her possesion? Yes. Also, how does the clumsy and inefficient Cyric manage to enter the picture so quickly with Mystra on full alert with the attack of Shar. Heh, we'll just assume that for once Cyric is written as a semi-competent deity. It's a shame that he has always been portrayed as an idiot. That being said, as uber as Mystra might be it is rather difficult for her to suffer a full on attack by Shar via the Karsus Stone and be 100% alert of Cyric sneaking up behind her... not to mention Velsharoon is likely helping him get in. By then Mystra should have been able to hold off the assasination failure long enough to get at least Selune over to help. You are assuming that she didn't die instantly. I am envisioning it more along the lines of this: - Shar rises to DvR 19 or 20 - a rank or two higher than Mystra. This is thanks to Cyric switching over to the Shadow Weave. This makes her more powerful than Mystra instead of equal in power. - Velsharoon opens a portal / gateway or some type into Dweomerheart that lets Cyric slip inside, unknown to Mystra. - As Shar launches one of her many attacks upon Mystra, Cyric slips in while she is distracted. - Mystra is weakened from Shar's near constant attacks, and Cyric basically walks up behind her and cuts her throat. No monologue. No witty words. No last statements. Just a quick and silent ending. - It happens to fast for Selune to help. One characteristic of the good deities that sets them apart from evil deities is that whatever their reservations, whenever a danger to the greater good arises, they are able to band together to fight it despite their "personal problems." We aren't talking about petty squabbles between deities. We're talking about the very reason they exist in the first place - to serve mortals, to uphold their portfolios, and to tend to their worshipers. Just because another deity is in trouble, no matter how deep the friendship, they can't just abandon their duties. As I said that was one of the reasons for the Time of Troubles - a deity must uphold their portfolio. To that end, it doesn't make sense for some or even all of them to jump up and try and help her unless they have a personal battle with Shar - such as Selune and Lathander. Ao might not even allow their intervention for that very reason. I've partially mentioned this above as well, a lot of deities would like to knock off Mystra, but a lot of deities would also not want to see the weave collapse and the world to fall into chaos. A lot of deities would not want to see Shar and Cyric gain power. A lot of those deities are the same deities that may not be very friendly to Mystra but understand the dire consequences (for the world, their worshippers, and themselves) too well to actually act. That is certainly true, but at the same time you are predicating things on the following: 1. That they can actually help her. (Keep in mind she doesn't know Cyric is coming to assassinate her.) 2. That she would actually call to them for help. Bane might not want to see Shar gain more power, but would Mystra really send a call to help to Bane? I don't see that happening, even if he would willingly help - she knows he would take advantage of her in her vulnerable state. If anything, Mystra's state of mind is likely paranoid and only allowing herself to associate with VERY close allies. I can understand Lathander in his current moral dilemma not being able to intervene, but Chauntea and Selune are Mystra's oldest and most powerful allies and they more than anyone else understand the importance of the weave the the consequences of it's destruction. Plus they are fierce enemies of Shar and would gladly take any amount of time to prevent her from achieving any gains. Selune - I can imagine Selune being there to offer support. However, keep in mind that Selune is vastly weaker than both Shar and Cyric, so technically speaking there is not much she could do. If she is there at all it is in avatar form offering advice, comfort and guidance. Chauntea - Her portfolios are so restricted that Ao might not even allow her to become involved. However, she might send an avatar like Selune. There really is nothing Chauntea can do. Lathander - He is likely caught up with the whole Risen Sun Business. Tyr / Torm / Ilmater / Sune / Tymora / Etc. - They are preoccupied over the whole mess involving Helm and his death. Kelemvor - He is in the same boat as Chauntea, and what is more despite his affinity toward Mystra, he may take a more neutral role. He might send an avatar to observe, but otherwise not intervene. He exists to deal with the dead not the living. Jergal would likely instruct him to do just that. Oghma - He might assist Mystra in some way, but his primary role would be restricted to his portfolios. In the end... the main problem is this. Mystra is in Dweomerheart. Shar is not. Mystra's body is the Weave itself and Shar has an object that is pretty much intricately connected to the Weave. It's as close as you can get to holding the Weave in your hands without touching Mystra yourself. She is using the Karsus Stone (while standing in the Palace of Loss) to attack the Weave directly - and therefore Mystra. As a result there is not much anyone can do. Mystra who is vulnerable can't lead an assault on the Palace of Loss. Selune is too weak to do so. Chauntea isn't one for armies. Tyr / Torm / Ilmater are pre-occupied and Lathander likely is as well... So in the end Mystra is more or less on her own. She can receive friendly words of support and guidance but that is about it. It is not inconceivable that Cyric could sneak in with the help of Velsharoon, and while Mystra is distracted and under attack by Shar, Cyric kills her in a weakened state. No one expected Cyric to show up, because no one suspected Velsharoon would let him in. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-26-08, 07:54 AM | Heya, - Shar rises to DvR 19 or 20 - a rank or two higher than Mystra. This is thanks to Cyric switching over to the Shadow Weave. This makes her more powerful than Mystra instead of equal in power. You're forgetting one very important thing here. Shar does not have the Shadow Weave in her portfolio, so therefore she'd gain absolutely nothing if Cyric switched over. In fact, she may not want Cyric to do so, because who knows? He might try and pinch it out from under her. The only power over the Shadow Weave Shar has is the ability to grant people access to it. She can't sense it via portfolio sense, and she can't do anything else with it, except use it tempt people into corruption ("here's this alternate weave, use it and you owe me for letting you use it.") Also, please remember your theory about the Karsus stone is just that... Your theory. We don't know exactly what happened, and we probably will never know. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 10:14 AM | Heh, we'll just assume that for once Cyric is written as a semi-competent deity. It's a shame that he has always been portrayed as an idiot. That being said, as uber as Mystra might be it is rather difficult for her to suffer a full on attack by Shar via the Karsus Stone and be 100% alert of Cyric sneaking up behind her... not to mention Velsharoon is likely helping him get in. The thing is, Cyric is NOT a semi-competent deity, Velsharoon is likely to be hounded by Azurth, who no doubt is aware of his little flirtations with Shar. I also don't believe Velsharoon would be one to perpetrate such an act, as he knows that Mystra is a far more stable and dependable medium than Shar (who would likely kill him and consume his porfolios) for his precious research. Velsharoon, despite his evil and greedy nature, is first and foremost a realist and a survivalist. I would think he would have learned better after his ill-fated relationship with Talos. He may just be flirting with Shar to gain more magical knowledge, but I highly doubt he would openly act against Mystra for practical reasons. You are assuming that she didn't die instantly. I am envisioning it more along the lines of this: - Shar rises to DvR 19 or 20 - a rank or two higher than Mystra. This is thanks to Cyric switching over to the Shadow Weave. This makes her more powerful than Mystra instead of equal in power. - Velsharoon opens a portal / gateway or some type into Dweomerheart that lets Cyric slip inside, unknown to Mystra. - As Shar launches one of her many attacks upon Mystra, Cyric slips in while she is distracted. - Mystra is weakened from Shar's near constant attacks, and Cyric basically walks up behind her and cuts her throat. No monologue. No witty words. No last statements. Just a quick and silent ending. - It happens to fast for Selune to help. And you are assuming that she can die instantly and that Shar can easily just gain a few DVR and Cyric can actually manage a effective assasination and Mystra's allies would be useless. You can't counter logic with assumption Meldread. We aren't talking about petty squabbles between deities. We're talking about the very reason they exist in the first place - to serve mortals, to uphold their portfolios, and to tend to their worshipers. Just because another deity is in trouble, no matter how deep the friendship, they can't just abandon their duties. As I said that was one of the reasons for the Time of Troubles - a deity must uphold their portfolio. To that end, it doesn't make sense for some or even all of them to jump up and try and help her unless they have a personal battle with Shar - such as Selune and Lathander. Ao might not even allow their intervention for that very reason. You are correct, but they also have a little thing called alignments and domains, which obviosly includes good in it. Also, if nobody else, some of the deities of neutrality would intervene on Mystra's behalf, as it is part of THEIR porfolios to maintain balance. I also don't see how porfolios would prevent Mystra' allies from sending some kind of aid to her, if nothing else but to buy time to escape. Now if Ao was directly involved, then your theory might have plausability. In the end... the main problem is this. Mystra is in Dweomerheart. Shar is not. Mystra's body is the Weave itself and Shar has an object that is pretty much intricately connected to the Weave. It's as close as you can get to holding the Weave in your hands without touching Mystra yourself. She is using the Karsus Stone (while standing in the Palace of Loss) to attack the Weave directly - and therefore Mystra. As a result there is not much anyone can do. Mystra who is vulnerable can't lead an assault on the Palace of Loss. Selune is too weak to do so. Chauntea isn't one for armies. Tyr / Torm / Ilmater are pre-occupied and Lathander likely is as well... So in the end Mystra is more or less on her own. She can receive friendly words of support and guidance but that is about it. Hmm, are these facts or theories you are basing your theories off of? Last I recall, Selune wasn't so weak that she coudn't effectively take the fight to Karsus, Chauntea is not for sitting around when decisive action can be taken (she out of all the deities gives Lathander the most support in his plans), and no matter what they are preoccupied with, the Holy Triad would answer the call to arms in an instant to preserve law and order on Faerun. You are also assuming that Shar can just approach the weave without Mystra's notice and that Mystra does not know the nature of the Karsestone so that she can effectively counter it. You assume too much. It is not inconceivable that Cyric could sneak in with the help of Velsharoon, and while Mystra is distracted and under attack by Shar, Cyric kills her in a weakened state. No one expected Cyric to show up, because no one suspected Velsharoon would let him in. As I have said, Velsharoon has neither the power nor the motivation to see the demise of the weave, and Cyric without that help, is out in the dark. You are also taking Azurth and Savras completly out of the picture in your theories, and they are factors to consiter. |
| Meldread01-26-08, 10:38 AM | I don't have time to answer both of your posts point by point... so I'll try and keep it brief. Here is what we know: - We know the "Who", in that we know Who was involved in her death. (Cyric and Shar.) - We know the "When", in that we know when she died, but we do not know how long it took. - We know the Where, in that we know that she died on her home plane. - We do not know the Why, in that we do not know why Shar and Cyric decided to strike at that particular time. - We do not know the How, in that we do not know how it all went down. - We do not know the What, in that we do not know exactly the thoughts and proceedings that led up to what happened. So from that point - all we have are theories. From what has been given no one can say for certain what was possible and what was not - no one here can say "it was impossible / it could have never happened" because we do not know the what, the how, the why and part of the when. I think my theory is a plausible method in which Mystra can be slain by both Cyric and Shar tag teaming her, however I do not preclude other equally plausible theories and many other non-plausible theories. We may never know what happened, which could very well render the discussion moot. Until we have the details, when it comes to it's-not-possible-for-Mystra-to-die discussions I think my theory works. :P Additionally, a factor that could have very well played a role but was never brought up: Cyric knew Mystra's True Name. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 10:41 AM | Additionally, a factor that could have very well played a role but was never brought up: Cyric knew Mystra's True Name. Ahh, that's the nail in the coffin I was looking for. If he possessed that then your theory would make sense. However, if he possessed that kind of power to begin with he could very likely have decided to take out Mystra on his own without Shar's help so he gets all the power. However, I still think that intervention via Ao is the most logical theory right now. |
| DarkZephyr01-26-08, 12:49 PM | Storm- Although when I wrote the above I basically assumed that when the Great Tree Cosmology was destroyed - Ao died with it. However, he wasn't the only deity that died, I am guessing that the elemental deities died as well (hence the formation of the Elemental Tempest). Have you read the original Avatar trilogy? Ao serves a being even greater than himself, a being that takes interest in the goings on in Ao's Crystal Sphere, and its balance. A sort of Overgod's Overgod. Are you certain Ao's master would go for all of this? My, but you sure are pleased with Mystra's destruction. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-26-08, 05:33 PM | Heya, Additionally, a factor that could have very well played a role but was never brought up: Cyric knew Mystra's True Name. No, Meldread, Cyric knew Midnight's true name. It's illogical to assume that Midnight's true name is also Mystra's, because Midnight is just a small part of Mystra. Logically, Mystra's true name will be ancient beyond measure and would have changed over the millennium as Mystra herself changed (first from Mystryl to Mystra, then from Mystra to Midnight, and possibly at other points in her development - and we have no reason to believe that Midnight Mystra retained Midnight Mortal's true name). @DarkZephyr - One theory about Ao's overlord is that it is, in fact, the DM. If this is the case, then we must assume that the "DM" is cool with what's happening to the Realms, and won't intervene. Having said that, since I am the DM of my own Realms (well, sort of, I'm not running the Realms at the moment), then you bet your nelly Ao's overlord will intervene! :P |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 05:46 PM | Additionally, a factor that could have very well played a role but was never brought up: Cyric knew Mystra's True Name. -Somebody brought it up. Didn't you bring it up previously? I recall telling someone that that type of magic was in Tome of Magic. Heya,It's illogical to assume that Midnight's true name is also Mystra's... -Not really. If Midnight wasn't such a big part of Mystra, her personality would not have changed after the Time of Troubles to reflect Midnight. I mean, that's how I see it, anyway. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 06:29 PM | Have you read the original Avatar trilogy? Ao serves a being even greater than himself, a being that takes interest in the goings on in Ao's Crystal Sphere, and its balance. A sort of Overgod's Overgod. Are you certain Ao's master would go for all of this? . Hmm, this provides much space for pondering..... "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah":D |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:36 PM | Hmm, this provides much space for pondering..... -Actually, we've come to the conclusion that it was Stigger at the end of the book. :) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 06:41 PM | -Actually, we've come to the conclusion that it was Stigger at the end of the book. :) That's what he wants you to think.:) |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:47 PM | That's what he wants you to think.:) -Perhaps, but there was some startling evidence. Stigger, for example, literally glows with luminescence. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 06:50 PM | -Perhaps, but there was some startling evidence. Stigger, for example, literally glows with luminescence. Oh, so now your seeing pretty lights out of nowhere Karsus. Welcome to my world.;) |
| GreenKnight01-26-08, 06:51 PM | -Somebody brought it up. Didn't you bring it up previously? I recall telling someone that that type of magic was in Tome of Magic. That would be me. -Not really. If Midnight wasn't such a big part of Mystra, her personality would not have changed after the Time of Troubles to reflect Midnight. I mean, that's how I see it, anyway. Agreed. She got Mystra's power, but she's still mostly Midnight. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:55 PM | That would be me. -Bah, I should've known. :P |
| GreenKnight01-26-08, 06:59 PM | -Bah, I should've known. :P Ever shall I be a thorn in your side, Karsus. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:07 PM | Ever shall I be a thorn in your side, Karsus. -Join me, GreenKnight. Together, we can rule the galaxy, as LK and GK...:emp: |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:08 PM | Oh here it comes.... |
| GreenKnight01-26-08, 07:10 PM | -Join me, GreenKnight. Together, we can rule the galaxy, as LK and GK...:emp: :fight!: I will NEVER join you! I- -what kind of salary can I expect to pull down in your organization? |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:14 PM | -Bubby, for you? A cushy, six-figures, great medical- including eye and dental-, retirement in fifteen years, paid vacation and sick leave, and all the cheesecake you can handle. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:17 PM | -Bubby, for you? A cushy, six-figures, great medical- including eye and dental-, retirement in fifteen years, paid vacation and sick leave, and all the cheesecake you can handle. You are aware your paying for all that right? |
| GreenKnight01-26-08, 07:18 PM | You are aware your paying for all that right? I'm worth it. Throw in a corner office with a nice view and great parking, and I'll be ready to sign up! :) |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:22 PM | You are aware your paying for all that right? -Meh, details, details. I'm worth it. Throw in a corner office with a nice view and great parking, and I'll be ready to sign up! :) -A corner office with a view, a parking spot reserved for you, and 10 premium tickets for various sporting events. -Now, just sign on the dotted line here, and we're all set. :) x_________________ |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:24 PM | I'm worth it. Throw in a corner office with a nice view and great parking, and I'll be ready to sign up! :) I was referring to YOU GreenKnight!!!! But please, feel free to join our most...venerable organization:cool: |
| GreenKnight01-26-08, 07:45 PM | I was referring to YOU GreenKnight!!!! Explain, please. Are you saying that Karsus is *GASP* trying to bamboozle me? |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:46 PM | Explain, please. You are far too naive if you believe that Karsus will actually do anything on your behalf at his own expense;) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:47 PM | Explain, please. Are you saying that Karsus is *GASP* trying to bamboozle me? I have no comment for the latter. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:52 PM | Explain, please. Are you saying that Karsus is *GASP* trying to bamboozle me? -Please, don't listen to him. He's crazy, anyway. I mean, he's a heretic! :looloo: -Heretic, retreat back into the shadows...I ordered you an Aboleth to play with. :cool: -Now, the dotted line... x________________ |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:55 PM | -Please, don't listen to him. He's crazy, anyway. I mean, he's a heretic! :looloo: -Heretic, retreat back into the shadows...I ordered you an Aboleth to play with. :cool: -Now, the dotted line... x____**** *****____________ Well, another thousand dollars out of my paycheck.:( |
| GreenKnight01-26-08, 08:02 PM | Your terms seem fair, Karsus. Very well, I accept. xGreen Knight |
| Charles Phipps01-26-08, 08:11 PM | Haven't bad guys do a lot more damage in 3ed that necessary? Look at how much victories they had (and no, conquering half of Faerūn isn't a victory, it's bad understanding of the complex mechanics between different power groups). I don't like evil groups having victories in the setting because they change the dinamics of what I'm doing. For example if I needed Hilsfar just like it was before Last Mythal that evil victory destroyed my plans. I dunno, I like the irony that Fzoul Chembyrl is pure evil yet the fact is that the lot of the people of Hilsfar will actually improve because he's actually better than the monster who came before. Also, you need evil to win often enough for it to remain a threat. Fzoul regained a lot of lost credibility with Hilsfar's conquest. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:12 PM | Well, another thousand dollars out of my paycheck.:( -Eh, I'll let it slip, because I often don't have anyone else to wax philosophical with. :) -My mother, and I like her and all, isn't smart enough to comprehend most complex philosophies, and my stepfather is too indoctrinated in Catholic indoctrination to appreciate most philosophies. My father and I often talk philosophy and politics, but I don't see him as often. Your terms seem fair, Karsus. Very well, I accept. xGreen Knight -Excellent. :thumbsup: Welcome to the Hands of Karsus. <*ahem*> -Rise, Lord GreenKnight...:emp: |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:13 PM | Personally, I think that evil dosen't win enough in the Realms and is often portrayed as pathetic and ineffective compared to villains from say...Greyhawk. Since when was the last time Thay ever won a war???:confused: |
| Charles Phipps01-26-08, 08:14 PM | The way I handled Mystra's death in the Forgotten Realms was that what happened to her wasn't the death of Mystra but the destruction of the Weave. That was what prevented Mystra from resurrected, as long as the Weave existed then she'd return because she wasn't really dead. This destroyed the Weave. My actual theory is that Shar never intended the Shadow Weave to supplant the Weave but it was like a gigantic bom to kill Mystra and Cyric was just the impetuous. Personally, I think that evil dosen't win enough in the Realms and is often portrayed as pathetic and ineffective compared to villains from say...Greyhawk. Since when was the last time Thay ever won a war???:confused: I'd love to see Thay's Navy conquer Unther's North but I never figured out how to make that work. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:21 PM | I'd love to see Thay's Navy conquer Unther's North but I never figured out how to make that work. -"Now" would be a good time. In the chaos of their Civil War, perhaps the Zukir of Divination or whomever foresees a catastrophe in Thay in the future, and sends a 'secret army' to conquer northern Unther, to guarantee him/her safety when the proverbial camel's back breaks. Perhaps mercenaries, to deflect recognition of his/her name, or Thay's involvement. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:27 PM | -"Now" would be a good time. In the chaos of their Civil War, perhaps the Zukir of Divination or whomever foresees a catastrophe in Thay in the future, and sends a 'secret army' to conquer northern Unther, to guarantee him/her safety when the proverbial camel's back breaks. Perhaps mercenaries, to deflect recognition of his/her name, or Thay's involvement. It would be fun to find out that the government of Tyrmather is a Thayan puppet regime.:D |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:34 PM | It would be fun to find out that the government of Tyrmather is a Thayan puppet regime.:D -It's possible. The Thayans like experimenting with different races and such (Blooded Orcs, for example). Perhaps the Dragonborn arrived in Faerūn due to Thayans behind the scenes, after they secretly created them, or something to that effect, in some demiplane? |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:37 PM | -It's possible. The Thayans like experimenting with different races and such (Blooded Orcs, for example). Perhaps the Dragonborn arrived in Faerūn due to Thayans behind the scenes, after they secretly created them, or something to that effect, in some demiplane? And do I sniff something else....a secret alliance with Tiamat??? This is getting exciting. Setian Mulhorand, Sharran Netheril, Tiamatian Unther/Thay, Banite Zhents. My blood boils in anticipation:cool: |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:41 PM | And do I sniff something else....a secret alliance with Tiamat??? -I was actually thinking Set, another 'reptilian' deity. The power boost Mulhoran recieved in conquering Unther, I am sure, gave the ruling Mulhorandi deities a little power boost. Finagling himself into the Dragonborn, and Thay, would be a great opportunity for Set to 'make up' the power gap that exists. |
| Charles Phipps01-26-08, 08:42 PM | Set's a major Thayan God in my lands. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:44 PM | -I was actually thinking Set, another 'reptilian' deity. The power boost Mulhoran recieved in conquering Unther, I am sure, gave the ruling Mulhorandi deities a little power boost. Finagling himself into the Dragonborn, and Thay, would be a great opportunity for Set to 'make up' the power gap that exists. I think it's time for Merreshaulk to make a comeback and destroy all of these posers. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:44 PM | -Finagling him into involvement with the Dragonborn, introduced into Unther from Thay wouldn't be that farfetched, then. :) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:45 PM | -Finagling him into involvement with the Dragonborn, introduced into Unther from Thay wouldn't be that farfetched, then. :) Still, having Set rule Unther, Mulhorand, and Thay would be a little farfetched don't you think? |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:53 PM | Still, having Set rule Unther, Mulhorand, and Thay would be a little farfetched don't you think? -He wouldn't be ruling any of those nations. He'd be involved in all three, however. Having various involvements, both secret and blatent, of varying importance, isn't to farfetched. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:55 PM | -He wouldn't be ruling any of those nations. He'd be involved in all three, however. Having various involvements, both secret and blatent, of varying importance, isn't to farfetched. I somehow cannot see Set being behind the creation of the dragonspawn, though he may take advantage of their hatred for all things draconic to use them as a weapon against his rivals Tiamat and Bane. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 09:04 PM | I somehow cannot see Set being behind the creation of the dragonspawn... -Well, he wouldn't be. The Thayans are, without his backing. An independent project, if you will. ...though he may take advantage of their hatred for all things draconic to use them as a weapon against his rivals Tiamat and Bane. -That's what I was thinking, only using them as tools to use against the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, and maybe even playing them against their Thayan creators, for his own benefit. He's shady like that. |
| Meldread01-27-08, 02:45 AM | Storm- As LK and others have pointed out, and I am in agreement with them, Mystra 3.0 is still Midnight. All she did was take Mystra's name and divine essence / power. However, fundamentally, she is still the same 'being' or 'core essence' if you will. So I don't see a reason why her True Name would be any different. LK- Nope wasn't me. Someone else brought it up either here or elsewhere, and I just remembered it and brought it up again. :P |
| XHereticX01-27-08, 10:03 AM | - -That's what I was thinking, only using them as tools to use against the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, and maybe even playing them against their Thayan creators, for his own benefit. He's shady like that. Well, judging by the rumors from 4e, I don't think there are going to be enough Mulhorandi deities to plot against:( |
| DarkZephyr01-27-08, 10:41 AM | Personally, I think that evil dosen't win enough in the Realms and is often portrayed as pathetic and ineffective compared to villains from say...Greyhawk. Since when was the last time Thay ever won a war???:confused: Is Thay still going to be around or will it explode in some sort of terrible Catyclism with Mystra's death? I am very concerned about Thay, and Rashmen, for that matter. The Wizards and Witches cannot possibly go unaffected by this. Look at Luskan and Silverymoon. Two VERY tragic losses to the game setting, as far as I am concerned. I will bitterly miss the Hosttower intrigue (see, I am not angry over this just because I prefer the good aligned characters and cities, I love many of the evil ones as well). Well, judging by the rumors from 4e, I don't think there are going to be enough Mulhorandi deities to plot against:( Amen. There aren't going to be enough deities, period. You know, when I first became interested in the Forgotten Realms, I had just come away from being a Dragonlance fan, and so the vast plurality of gods in the FR setting annoyed me beyond belief, and, get this, I of all people loathed the idea of a goddess of magic. I thought that such a concept was lame to the max, probably because of many of the same reasons so many players are delighted at Mystra's final death. I have always favored the concept of arcane spell casters (and you may not believe this, but have long had a soft spot for the villains of fictional settings) and to have a goddess regulating magic was just too stupid, in my view. I also hated how many gods and goddesses there were, and the whole concept of racial gods annoyed me even more than the concept of a deity of magic. I have always vehemently loathed Ethnocentricity, and that's what this was, in my view. But when I got into the story and lore of the realms, and saw how it all worked out, the dynamics, etc, I became enchanted with it all. I fell in love with the setting and in particular, Mystra/Midnight and now, I can barely remember what Dragonlance was like (though I will never forget Taz or Fizban). For me, until now, Forgotten Realms was The Shniznit. Everything that I learned to love has been blasted away now though. |
| XHereticX01-27-08, 10:47 AM | To tell you the truth, I had the exact same experience as you. DL first, then FR. Though I still say that Weis and Hickman's writing talent is something that no FR author will ever surpass. |
| Lord Karsus01-27-08, 10:49 AM | LK- Nope wasn't me. Someone else brought it up either here or elsewhere, and I just remembered it and brought it up again. :P -It was GreenKnight, he already admitted to it. Well, judging by the rumors from 4e, I don't think there are going to be enough Mulhorandi deities to plot against:( -Hmm, good point. I forgot about all of the, uh...'downsizing' and whatnot, in the heavens. |
| XHereticX01-27-08, 10:51 AM | - -Hmm, good point. I forgot about all of the, uh...'downsizing' and whatnot, in the heavens. Either that or they are all going to be integrated into the Faerunian Pantheon as demigod vassals. |
| Lord Karsus01-27-08, 10:52 AM | Either that or they are all going to be integrated into the Faerunian Pantheon as demigod vassals. -Which is a little silly, but... |
| DarkZephyr01-27-08, 11:25 AM | To tell you the truth, I had the exact same experience as you. DL first, then FR. Though I still say that Weis and Hickman's writing talent is something that no FR author will ever surpass. You may be right there. They have major talent. But I am still curious about the fates of Thay and Rashmen. Does anyone know? |
| XHereticX01-27-08, 11:28 AM | You may be right there. They have major talent. But I am still curious about the fates of Thay and Rashmen. Does anyone know? Thay's in ruins from the good ole' Plague, and Szass and his cronies are likely trying to rebuild it in their vision (it is also a theory of mine and Karsus's that Thay is somehow behind the Dragonborn regime in Tyrmather but the exact nature or possibility is unknown). As for Rashemen, I have no clue. |
| DarkZephyr01-27-08, 11:34 AM | Thay's in ruins from the good ole' Plague, and Szass and his cronies are likely trying to rebuild it in their vision (it is also a theory of mine and Karsus's that Thay is somehow behind the Dragonborn regime in Tyrmather but the exact nature or possibility is unknown). As for Rashemen, I have no clue. Does this spell the end of the Red Wizards? I hope not. |
| Lord Karsus01-27-08, 11:50 AM | Does this spell the end of the Red Wizards? I hope not. -Probably not. They are a resourceful bunch, and with enclaves all over the world, the loss of Thay doesn't necessarily mean much. |
| DarkZephyr01-27-08, 12:06 PM | -Probably not. They are a resourceful bunch, and with enclaves all over the world, the loss of Thay doesn't necessarily mean much. Good news for once. lol. Thanks. |
| Zsych01-27-08, 12:09 PM | I think that the only future for Thay that I could tolerate would be Szass Tam taking control over part of it, and the rest being a separate territory lead by the rest of the former zulkir... Thus giving Tam more standing and a greater, more threatening power base perhaps. ... I doubt that liches at least are going to die from the spell-plague, they haven't died from anything else.. like the ToT, or the Fall of Netheril. |
| Lord Karsus01-27-08, 12:46 PM | Good news for once. lol. Thanks. -I could be totally wrong. Like 99% of everything else, it's speculation. I think that the only future for Thay that I could tolerate would be Szass Tam taking control over part of it, and the rest being a separate territory lead by the rest of the former zulkir... -Being as parts of Thay are floating in the sky, Tam could be the master of 'Upper Thay', while the others are the masters of 'Lower Thay'. |
| Kiioro01-27-08, 02:03 PM | Storm- As LK and others have pointed out, and I am in agreement with them, Mystra 3.0 is still Midnight. All she did was take Mystra's name and divine essence / power. However, fundamentally, she is still the same 'being' or 'core essence' if you will. So I don't see a reason why her True Name would be any different. There are two parts about true naming. What would help Cyric is the fact that Truenaming, just like Shadow Magic/Weave and Pact Magic (from Tome Of Magic) are outside the Weave, and usually persecuted by those who practice "True" magic. So she would've had a hard time knowing beforehand. But her true name, the one that usually works with truename magic, changes as life goes on. By the time Cyric learned Mystra's "True Name", he got only the name she was born with, but truenaming also implies that you must know many things she's been through, because it's exacting. He would have to have at least a few levels as a True Namer, because: "There's a word for 'orc berserker charging towards me', a word for 'ironbound, locked wooden door with something unknown on the other side' (...) In addition to true names that describe nouns and those that describe action, there exists a third category: personal truenames. (...) Most people don't know their own personal truenames, and even dedicated students of truename magic don't know more than a few personal truenames". So... That might not be the the way it happened, most probably. |
| DarkZephyr01-27-08, 02:28 PM | -I could be totally wrong. Like 99% of everything else, it's speculation. Well, at least there is hope. |
| Lord Karsus01-27-08, 03:08 PM | So... That might not be the the way it happened, most probably. -To further add to the intrigue (Cyric's cup of tea), perhaps Velsharoon tricked Savras into divining Mystra's Truename, allowing Cyric to obtain it. Realizing he had been tricked, Savras acts heroically during the scuffle between Cyric and Mystra, and ultimatley lays down his life. Well, at least there is hope. -A "point of light", if you will. :cool: |
| XHereticX01-27-08, 03:11 PM | I still think that everyone is wrongly laying blame on Velsharoon. As much as I despise him, I have already assessed that he neither has the power, the cunningness, nor the motivation to pull something like that off. |
| Lord Karsus01-27-08, 03:24 PM | I still think that everyone is wrongly laying blame on Velsharoon. As much as I despise him, I have already assessed that he neither has the power, the cunningness, nor the motivation to pull something like that off. -He has all three: Power: What he lacks in actual power, he makes up by virtue of where he is- in Dweomerheart! Double agent moles planted inside your enemy's HQ is an amazing resource to have. Cunning: Velsharoon was once a mortal necromancer who, through his cunning, was able to not only cause Talos to choose him to elevate, but was able to escape Talos' fury by aligning himself with Mystra. Certainly sounds cunning to me. Motivation: Velsharoon, as mentioned above, was once a mortal, who eventually became a deity. Had he not been motivated, he never would have accepted Talos' come-ons. And, showing that he is still motivated as a deity, he is being courted by Shar, and is thinking about the rammifications of switching to the Shadow Weave. If he wasn't motivated, he wouldn't listen to Shar's advances. |
| Charles Phipps01-27-08, 03:33 PM | I still think that everyone is wrongly laying blame on Velsharoon. As much as I despise him, I have already assessed that he neither has the power, the cunningness, nor the motivation to pull something like that off. I don't really get where you got your annoyance for Velsharoon from. Is there some canonical appearances that I don't know about where he's a big :censored: idiot? Really, he clearly is smarter than Ssass Tam given one's a God and the other isn't. |
| Meldread01-27-08, 07:56 PM | I agree both with LK and Charles. Velsharoon may not be a particularly powerful deity, but what power he does have he uses to great effect. Do not forget he is still flirting with Talos behind Mystra's back. Talos... who wants dominion over wild magic / destructive magic. Velsharoon is perhaps one of the most cunning deities in the setting, and out of many of the demi-gods we have, he is one of the few I can actually picture climbing through the ranks and someday eventually becoming a Greater God. His enemies (and allies) under estimate him at their own peril. Additionally, if he does someday achieve Greater Godhood, it will be something he earned through hard work - not something that was dumped into his lap such as was done for Mystra and Cyric. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-28-08, 04:00 AM | Heya, As LK and others have pointed out, and I am in agreement with them, Mystra 3.0 is still Midnight. All she did was take Mystra's name and divine essence / power. However, fundamentally, she is still the same 'being' or 'core essence' if you will. So I don't see a reason why her True Name would be any different. You only agree with them because it just gives you more fuel for your plot. ;) :P (Yes, that was a joke, if the emoticons didn't give it away!) Seriously, though, according to my understanding of True Names, a True Name represents the purest essence of a person, and is something that is inherent, something that one is born with, but something that is only discovered with much soul searching. Your average person doesn't know their True Name. Midnight gave up her mortality, and merged with the Weave to become an entirely new entity. She was reborn, if you like. Her new True Name would probably be some amalgamation of Mystryl's and the previous Mystra's. What this boils down to is that, in my opinion, Divinity is greater than Mortality. The True Name of the Divine Entity that is the Weave would overpower/overshadow/overwhelm the True Name of the Mortal Entity that was Midnight. |
| Flicker01-28-08, 07:50 AM | Heya, You only agree with them because it just gives you more fuel for your plot. ;) :P (Yes, that was a joke, if the emoticons didn't give it away!) Seriously, though, according to my understanding of True Names, a True Name represents the purest essence of a person, and is something that is inherent, something that one is born with, but something that is only discovered with much soul searching. Your average person doesn't know their True Name. Midnight gave up her mortality, and merged with the Weave to become an entirely new entity. She was reborn, if you like. Her new True Name would probably be some amalgamation of Mystryl's and the previous Mystra's. What this boils down to is that, in my opinion, Divinity is greater than Mortality. The True Name of the Divine Entity that is the Weave would overpower/overshadow/overwhelm the True Name of the Mortal Entity that was Midnight. And to add to this, you can't treat gods as though they are just uber powerful humans, who's to say they actually have a true name? Some of them have been around for so long they could have been spontaneously created? BTW re Mystra's death, we can specualte all we like, fans are like that, lets remember, unless they sat at the table with Ed and Troy Denning, the designers may not have even looked at in as much detail, more likely, we need to change magic, right lets kill Mystra, right, Cyric does it with Shar's help. there we go, there may be no backstory!!!!!!!!! Oh and a question, if there is no weave, then there is no Shadow Weave, can't cast a shadow without been there???? |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 09:18 AM | I don't really get where you got your annoyance for Velsharoon from. Is there some canonical appearances that I don't know about where he's a big :censored: idiot? Really, he clearly is smarter than Ssass Tam given one's a God and the other isn't. I really don't know actually, he just always seemed kind of dumb to me. I am aware of all these exploits, yet it still makes him look....weak in my eyes at the end. In other words, he is a very bad ripoff of Vecna. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 09:48 AM | Seriously, though, according to my understanding of True Names, a True Name represents the purest essence of a person, and is something that is inherent, something that one is born with, but something that is only discovered with much soul searching. Your average person doesn't know their True Name. Midnight gave up her mortality, and merged with the Weave to become an entirely new entity. She was reborn, if you like. Her new True Name would probably be some amalgamation of Mystryl's and the previous Mystra's. What this boils down to is that, in my opinion, Divinity is greater than Mortality. The True Name of the Divine Entity that is the Weave would overpower/overshadow/overwhelm the True Name of the Mortal Entity that was Midnight. -If, when she ascended, she gave up all traces of her mortality, Mystra III would not have still been in love with Kelemvor, and she would not have still hated Cyric. In short, she would not have acted any differently than Mystra II, had this not been the case. -Now, if a True Name is "something that is inherent, something that one is born with", than there is no reason that Mystra III's mortal True Name would not work, especially since she "merged with the Weave". Ariel Manx's True Name and Mystra II's True Name should be equally effective. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 09:51 AM | And to add to this, you can't treat gods as though they are just uber powerful humans, who's to say they actually have a true name? Some of them have been around for so long they could have been spontaneously created? -Everything has a True Name. From my understanding of what True Names are, they are, simply put, the words of creation, the words that make up the multiverse. If something exists, then it has a True Name. BTW re Mystra's death, we can specualte all we like, fans are like that, lets remember, unless they sat at the table with Ed and Troy Denning, the designers may not have even looked at in as much detail, more likely, we need to change magic, right lets kill Mystra, right, Cyric does it with Shar's help. there we go, there may be no backstory!!!!!!!!! -So? That shouldn't prevent is from discussing and theorizing. Oh and a question, if there is no weave, then there is no Shadow Weave, can't cast a shadow without been there???? -Fourth Edition has something about Mage Power Sources', where magic casters tap into different sources of magic. If I recall properly from MT's musings, there are going to be four: Arcane, Divine, Shadow and Far Realm. |
| Flicker01-28-08, 10:10 AM | -Everything has a True Name. From my understanding of what True Names are, they are, simply put, the words of creation, the words that make up the multiverse. If something exists, then it has a True Name. Fair enough, in that case, I agree with your previous post that Ariel Manx would be at least 1 of mystra's -So? That shouldn't prevent is from discussing and theorizing. I think you missed my tongue in cheek ;) -Fourth Edition has something about Mage Power Sources', where magic casters tap into different sources of magic. If I recall properly from MT's musings, there are going to be four: Arcane, Divine, Shadow and Far Realm. I think you missed my point, wasn't the whole point of the Shadow weave, that it literally was a shadow of the normal weave as one would have a shadow in the sun, therefore, if there is no weave, there is no shadow weave. Re the 4e bit, as far as I understand, the weave as we know and love just doesn;t exist and wizards/sorcerors and other arcane casters, access raw magic in a simpler format? I believe the reference to Shadow here may refer to the plane of Shadow as a source of magic, God knows what the Far Realm is or where Arcane magic comes from, see my previous post re the metaphysics of this |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 10:14 AM | I think you missed my point, wasn't the whole point of the Shadow weave, that it literally was a shadow of the normal weave as one would have a shadow in the sun, therefore, if there is no weave, there is no shadow weave. Re the 4e bit, as far as I understand, the weave as we know and love just doesn;t exist and wizards/sorcerors and other arcane casters, access raw magic in a simpler format? I believe the reference to Shadow here may refer to the plane of Shadow as a source of magic, God knows what the Far Realm is or where Arcane magic comes from, see my previous post re the metaphysics of this -Well, you just answered your own question. They'll be drawing their power from the Plane of Shadows. -As for the Weave and the Shadow Weave, canon (Magic of Faerūn) states that the two can exist independently of each other. The Anauroch module retconned this, so that when the Weave unraveled, so too would the Shadow Weave, but Richard Baker, the creator and foremost authority of the Shadow Weave, has said to ignore this, as it was an error. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 10:34 AM | -Well, you just answered your own question. They'll be drawing their power from the Plane of Shadows. Which conveniently dosen't exist anymore;) From my knowledge magic is now drawn from the Feywild. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 10:36 AM | Which conveniently dosen't exist anymore;) -The Shadowfell, then. That's the Plane of Shadow and Negative Energy Plane rolling into one. I just refuse to use 4e terminology. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 10:42 AM | -The Shadowfell, then. That's the Plane of Shadow and Negative Energy Plane rolling into one. I just refuse to use 4e terminology. I like the Shadowfell, a lot. They took a completly useless plane (negative energy), and an important abiet boring one, and turned it into something truely wonderous, like a dark version of Faerie just waiting to be explored. As for magic, I think there really is nothing that sets Shadow Weave users apart from Weave users now that both are dust. So the Shadowfell would only serve a a conduit for necromancy and magic specifically based around shadows (or so I recall from Worlds and Monsters). And when did Anarouch: Empire of Shade retcon? I don't buy pre-made adventures, so I woudn't know. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 10:46 AM | And when did Anarouch: Empire of Shade retcon? I don't buy pre-made adventures, so I woudn't know. -Whenever it came out. I don't have it either, but it was something like October or November. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 10:47 AM | -Whenever it came out. I don't have it either, but it was something like October or November. Whatever, time to pull the cheap Asian trick and read it on my next trip to the bookstore. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 10:51 AM | -A whole bunch of wacky and unneccesary plothooks in that book. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 10:53 AM | -A whole bunch of wacky and unneccesary plothooks in that book. Well, I'll just take it like a badly written novel. |
| Flicker01-28-08, 11:53 AM | Well, I'll just take it like a badly written novel. I have it, hence my quote re the 2 not existing simultaneously, thanks for the clarification karsus. I'm not sure I agree with you re the negative energy plane heretic, I loved the fact there was somewhere so inhospitable that it was really difficult to go there, plus it made sense for all the negative energy undead to be pwered from 1 place, although to be fair, I could never reconcile why the positive energy plane was useful. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 03:58 PM | I have it, hence my quote re the 2 not existing simultaneously, thanks for the clarification karsus. I'm not sure I agree with you re the negative energy plane heretic, I loved the fact there was somewhere so inhospitable that it was really difficult to go there, plus it made sense for all the negative energy undead to be pwered from 1 place, although to be fair, I could never reconcile why the positive energy plane was useful. There are lots of Inhospitable planes out there with far more detail and background that the Negative Energy Plane. It was essentially one big storagehouse for undead, no other purpose than that, and the Positive Energy Plane was only created as a opposite and for no other reason. Frankly, there have been all kinds of useless planes (paraelemental planes:rolleyes: ) created just because TSR felt like representing every known substance there was. While the idea was fun with Planescape, for D&D in general it was quite redundant and I for one am glad that they are cleaning up the planes and making them more useful from a Utilitarian perspective. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 04:27 PM | It was essentially one big storagehouse for undead, no other purpose than that, and the Positive Energy Plane was only created as a opposite and for no other reason. -Positivity and Negativity are two fundamental emotions. Thus, they have a plane, as does everything else. Frankly, there have been all kinds of useless planes (paraelemental planes:rolleyes:)... -You did not just insult the Paraelemental/Quasielemental Planes...:incog: |
| Storm_Silverhand01-30-08, 12:35 AM | Heya, -As for the Weave and the Shadow Weave, canon (Magic of Faerūn) states that the two can exist independently of each other. The Anauroch module retconned this, so that when the Weave unraveled, so too would the Shadow Weave, but Richard Baker, the creator and foremost authority of the Shadow Weave, has said to ignore this, as it was an error. And Ed Greenwood (creator of the Realms and the Weave, and Mystra and Shar to boot) has said something else... He compared the Weave and the Shadow Weave to the heart and arteries (Weave) and the veins (Shadow Weave). Logically, if the heart stops pumping blood, then the veins stop working too as the blood stops moving. (Blood being Raw Magic in this example.) The Shadow Weave is one of the most inconsistent things I've ever come across in any game world... It was lifted from a different world when it went out of print, and shoe horned into the Realms so the novel that it was included in could have somewhere to live - which has caused all kinds of problems with consistency. No one seems to be able to agree on exactly what the Shadow Weave is. It has no place in any deity's portfolio, even the deity who supposedly controls it, and depending on who is talking and which way the wind blew last Sunday, and what the temperature will be like on 01/01/2999, it is and it isn't connected to the Weave itself. If you want to don a tin foil hat for a moment, it looks as if Baker is trying to hang onto his cake and eat it as well... According to him (as you said) the Shadow Weave is separate to the Weave, which logically means that when the Weave dies the Shadow Weave will still exist. Either they're going to contradict Baker (by saying the two collapse at the same time), or they'll come up with some way in which the Shadow Weave collapses on its own, OR, and this is what I'm afraid of, the Shadow Weave will continue to exist in 4th Edition - which would be quite the stinging slap for fans of Mystra and Weave. |
| buzzard01-30-08, 06:21 AM | And Ed Greenwood (creator of the Realms and the Weave, and Mystra and Shar to boot) has said something else... He compared the Weave and the Shadow Weave to the heart and arteries (Weave) and the veins (Shadow Weave). Logically, if the heart stops pumping blood, then the veins stop working too as the blood stops moving. (Blood being Raw Magic in this example.) And the rights to the setting belong to WotC now, anything Ed Greenwood says outside a game product/official web article (no matter how good it may be) is not canon, it think that has been proven to be true, especially in these last times where a lot of what Ed Greenwood said was disregarded by official WotC lore because it was never considered in the first place (and I doubt that they know about most things Ed Greenwood posts in Candlekeep.com, if not everything). OR, and this is what I'm afraid of, the Shadow Weave will continue to exist in 4th Edition - which would be quite the stinging slap for fans of Mystra and Weave. Baker said that the Shadow Weave will continue to exist in 4th edition but, it will become the Shadow Source of Power (in addition to the Martial source, arcane source, fey source, etcetera) so it's just going to be part of standard 4th edition mechanics except with flavor from the past. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-30-08, 06:32 AM | Heya, And the rights to the setting belong to WotC now, anything Ed Greenwood says outside a game product with his name on it (no matter how good it may be) is not canon, it think that has been proven to be true, especially in these last times where a lot of what Ed Greenwood said was disregarded by official WotC lore because it was never considered in the first place (and I doubt that they know about most things Ed Greenwood posts in Candlekeep.com). While it is probably true that not every person employed at WotC reads Candlekeep, there are quite a number of Realms authors (both game products and novels) who read and post there. Last I checked, there was no change to the contract between Ed and WotC regarding the Realms. Ed's words are canon unless specifically contradicted in print. Which means that they made a concession to him, but are also free to ignore him. (Which I think is a mistake.) Baker said that the Shadow Weave will continue to exist in 4th edition but it will probably become the Shadow Source of Power (in addition to the Martial source, arcane source, fey source, etcetera). :rolleyes: :rolleye2: :banghead: :yuck: I don't trust myself to say anything more, right now. |
| Alediran01-30-08, 10:29 AM | One thing you can say: RICHARD BAKER MUST BE STOPPED FROM SLAUGHTERING THE REALMS!!!! THIS TIME FOR REAL!!!!. Now I'm really ****** off. |
| buzzard01-30-08, 10:47 AM | Last I checked, there was no change to the contract between Ed and WotC regarding the Realms. Where can I see the terms of his contract? :detect: I still doubt very much that Ed's words are canon, especially when he contradicted previously published lore, only to be contradicted again in turn (i.e.: Shadow Weave, the Weave is the basis of life, etc.). Ed's words are canon unless specifically contradicted in print. Which means that they made a concession to him, but are also free to ignore him. (Which I think is a mistake.) What's the purpose of considering Ed Greenwood's words as canon yet be able to disregard them as non-canon? I mean, what's the real status of his words? canon or not canon? |
| Alediran01-30-08, 11:08 AM | Where can I see the terms of his contract? :detect: Laywers... :P |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 11:22 AM | And Ed Greenwood (creator of the Realms and the Weave, and Mystra and Shar to boot) has said something else... -And he has also stated that he is not the creator of the Shadow Weave, and as such, what he says about it is suggestions, and that Rich Baker is the final say-so on the topic. The Shadow Weave is one of the most inconsistent things I've ever come across in any game world... It was lifted from a different world when it went out of print, and shoe horned into the Realms so the novel that it was included in could have somewhere to live - which has caused all kinds of problems with consistency. No one seems to be able to agree on exactly what the Shadow Weave is. It has no place in any deity's portfolio, even the deity who supposedly controls it, and depending on who is talking and which way the wind blew last Sunday, and what the temperature will be like on 01/01/2999, it is and it isn't connected to the Weave itself. -All true, but it exists, so we might as well coexist with it, and make lemonaid with lemons. I mean, what's the real status of his words? canon or not canon? -As long as there is nothing else published on the topic, what he says is considered canon. If he says something that contradicts something that is already published, the published product takes precidence. If a product it published after he says something, the public product takes precidence. Either way, if something is published, no matter how silly, outlandish, whatever, Ed is overruled. As it should be. |
| Kenzuki01-30-08, 11:29 AM | Some things that Ed Greenwood comes up with are kinda stupid imho. Plus he's insulting to women by making almost all his female characters the fantasy equivilent of a pornstar. |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 11:33 AM | Some things that Ed Greenwood comes up with are kinda stupid imho. Plus he's insulting to women by making almost all his female characters the fantasy equivilent of a pornstar. -It's not insulting. That's just how society is in Faerūn. And, I am sure that there are plenty of women who would want to be pornstars. |
| buzzard01-30-08, 11:36 AM | -As long as there is nothing else published on the topic, what he says is considered canon. If he says something that contradicts something that is already published, the published product takes precidence. If a product it published after he says something, the public product takes precidence. Either way, if something is published, no matter how silly, outlandish, whatever, Ed is overruled. As it should be. So, at the end of the day, the only thing that's canon from Ed is all those npcs and their stories that he details when asked about (which I love since they are very detailed) even though there's a huge chance that they are going to be considered non-existent in future products. |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 11:45 AM | So, at the end of the day, the only thing that's canon from Ed is all those npcs and their stories that he details when asked about (which I love since they are very detailed) even though there's a huge chance that they are going to be considered non-existent in future products. -That, and anything else that has yet to have it's story told and detailed- some of the Border Kingdoms, for example. Basically, its "filling in the gaps"- telling us what kinds of foods Elves eat, who makes the dresses for Alustriel, what Llheo likes to do in his free time, and stuff like that. |
| Kenzuki01-30-08, 01:51 PM | I should go make a post on Candlekeep and see if Greenwood answers a question I have about the Dead Three. I'm going to ask him about when they ascended and if Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul were their real names as mortals. If they were their parents must be freaky. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-30-08, 02:00 PM | The Shadow Weave is one of the most inconsistent things I've ever come across in any game world... It was lifted from a different world when it went out of print, and shoe horned into the Realms so the novel that it was included in could have somewhere to live - which has caused all kinds of problems with consistency. No one seems to be able to agree on exactly what the Shadow Weave is. It has no place in any deity's portfolio, even the deity who supposedly controls it, and depending on who is talking and which way the wind blew last Sunday, and what the temperature will be like on 01/01/2999, it is and it isn't connected to the Weave itself. You've pretty much delineated what I dislike about the Shadow Weave--there's a different definition for it depending on who you talk to! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-30-08, 02:02 PM | What's the purpose of considering Ed Greenwood's words as canon yet be able to disregard them as non-canon? I mean, what's the real status of his words? canon or not canon? Any sourcebook can be ignored and/or contradicted later. So I don't see how Ed's words are that different from something printed in a sourcebook. |
| Miryana01-30-08, 02:50 PM | -It's not insulting. That's just how society is in Faerūn. And, I am sure that there are plenty of women who would want to be pornstars. But no men? Grizzly, ugly or otherwise unattractive men seem to be pretty overrepresented among NPCs. For the sake of our poor suffering eyes, can't some of them drink potions of youthfulness, be miraculously transformed by the effects of the Spellplague or get supplanted by hunkier specimens before 1479? |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 02:52 PM | But no men? Grizzly, ugly or otherwise unattractive men seem to be pretty overrepresented among NPCs. For the sake of our poor suffering eyes, can't some of them drink potions of youthfulness, be miraculously transformed by the effects of the Spellplague or get supplanted by hunkier specimens before 1479? -Don't worry. There will still be enough of Karsus to go around, ladies...:cool: |
| Miryana01-30-08, 03:00 PM | -Don't worry. There will still be enough of Karsus to go around, ladies...:cool: Ack! I'm going to take my "Save Danilo, Save the Realms" banner and move away from the mage... |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 08:41 AM | -Don't worry. There will still be enough of Karsus to go around, ladies...:cool: Good effort bimbo, maybe in after your next five avatar incidents you will learn;) Oh, and as for people complaining about every ****ing aspect of the Realms that comes out these days, I once symphasized, but now it's getting me a little ticked. At least try to maintain an open mind, or else this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk will happen to the Realms. |
| Alediran02-01-08, 11:30 AM | Good effort bimbo, maybe in after your next five avatar incidents you will learn;) Oh, and as for people complaining about every ****ing aspect of the Realms that comes out these days, I once symphasized, but now it's getting me a little ticked. At least try to maintain an open mind, or else this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk will happen to the Realms. I would preffer that over WotC destruction. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 12:00 PM | I would preffer that over WotC destruction. Um, just go talk to the Greyhawk people over at those boards. Believe me, it's not fun having your setting shot to near obscinity. |
| Alediran02-01-08, 12:58 PM | Um, just go talk to the Greyhawk people over at those boards. Believe me, it's not fun having your setting shot to near obscinity. Then what the realms are getting, Chopped liver? Because the Realms are being shot by a Terrorist with an AK-47. That's why I would preffer if WotC completely stopped publishing products for the Realms. |
| Lord Karsus02-01-08, 01:06 PM | Good effort bimbo, maybe in after your next five avatar incidents you will learn;) -Hey, didn't we establish that the only bimbo here is Tymora? :P Oh, and as for people complaining about every ****ing aspect of the Realms that comes out these days, I once symphasized, but now it's getting me a little ticked. -People complain because there are things they don't like. So, obviously, there is a lot of stuff that a lot of people don't like. Because the Realms are being shot by a Terrorist with an AK-47. -Like the Imaginationland episode of South Park? Classic. :) That's why I would preffer if WotC completely stopped publishing products for the Realms. -If they continue changing things so radically, at such an alarming pace, I'd have to agree with you. I'd rather have fond memories of something good that is no longer around, than have fond memories of something good that still exists, but is nothing like it used to be. A friendship, for example. I'd rather have a good friend simply disappear or whatever, then have him still around, but without any of the qualities that made me and said person good friends. |
| admcewen02-01-08, 01:18 PM | Oh, and as for people complaining about every ****ing aspect of the Realms that comes out these days, I once symphasized, but now it's getting me a little ticked. At least try to maintain an open mind, or else this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk will happen to the Realms.[/QUOTE] I agree |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 01:48 PM | Or else "Greyhawk" will happen to the Realms? I don't get it.:confused: |
| Lord Karsus02-01-08, 01:59 PM | Or else "Greyhawk" will happen to the Realms? I don't get it.:confused: -That the setting won't be supported anymore, I guess. Mind you, the setting was dropped because people didn't like the radical changes that TSR did to the setting, but... |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 02:09 PM | - -People complain because there are things they don't like. So, obviously, there is a lot of stuff that a lot of people don't like. . A vocal minority on the forums is not a lot of people. Mind you, I do agree that many older players are not happy with the changes, and I understand. But it dosen't mean that we should stop supporting it. As Grand History of the Realms showed, the designers do care about what we think and will try to accomadate us to the best of their ability, but remember, WoTC is a business, and they are trying to win over the "phat lewt" population as well, so some concessions must be made. If you want the Realms to live, support 4e Realms. I truly don't want to see FR out of the limelight. Maybe once the newer players start becoming more knowledgable about Realmslore and grow to love the setting as much as us, some of the complexity will return. |
| Lord Karsus02-01-08, 02:35 PM | A vocal minority on the forums is not a lot of people. -A lot of people here, on these boards, who are part of the regular conversations. I can't talk for the dark figure of fans or consumers. No one can. If you want the Realms to live, support 4e Realms. -An extremely stupid reason to support anything. It sends the wrong message. Voters who support their party often disagree with their party's candidates, and thus, don't vote for them. My father is a lifelong Democrat who would have voted for Rudy. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 02:41 PM | - -An extremely stupid reason to support anything. It sends the wrong message. Voters who support their party often disagree with their party's candidates, and thus, don't vote for them. My father is a lifelong Democrat who would have voted for Rudy. Normally that would be the case. But I have weighed the justifications against the effects and found for me personally, supporting 4e is the way to go. I have neither the time nor the motivation to support an underground movement. You can disagree and that is just fine. It's your Realms. One problem is that WoTc is not paying as much attention to the existing fans as they are to the potential Drizzt-fan-club which can be made into a cash cow. A mistake on their part... |
| Lord Karsus02-01-08, 02:49 PM | One problem is that WoTc is not paying as much attention to the existing fans as they are to the potential Drizzt-fan-club which can be made into a cash cow. A mistake on their part... -Anytime you ignore a...'section', for a lack of a better word, of your fanbase, and favor another, you are making a mistake. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 03:56 PM | -Anytime you ignore a...'section', for a lack of a better word, of your fanbase, and favor another, you are making a mistake. Even worse, they aren't even consitering their current fan base and out of avarice is staring into a potential WoW for them. WoTC is certainly not out of touch with us, it's just that external pressures are pushing them to drastic measures. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:25 PM | -That the setting won't be supported anymore, I guess. Mind you, the setting was dropped because people didn't like the radical changes that TSR did to the setting, but... I figured that poster was trying to imply that what happened to Greyhawk would happen to the Realms (and he/she can't know that with any certainty, anyway), but I felt the poster should have elucidated his/her point rather than just post a link and expect the reader to decipher the meaning for herself. In any case, if the person's point was indeed what you think it was, then I can't say I'm particularly moved by it. If the new setting *does* fail because people don't want to buy it, that's pure capitalism. It's up to the business to produce a product that consumers will buy, or that product (and in many cases, the business) will fail. The consumer isn't to blame for not buying a product they had no interest in. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:30 PM | But it dosen't mean that we should stop supporting it. I don't feel that I "should" support something I don't have much of an interest in. If you want the Realms to live, support 4e Realms. The Realms will "live" as long as there are people who enjoy it, whatever "version" of the setting it might be. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:32 PM | I figured that poster was trying to imply that what happened to Greyhawk would happen to the Realms (and he/she can't know that with any certainty, anyway), but I felt the poster should have elucidated his/her point rather than just post a link and expect the reader to decipher the meaning for herself. In any case, if the person's point was indeed what you think it was, then I can't say I'm particularly moved by it. If the new setting *does* fail because people don't want to buy it, that's pure capitalism. It's up to the business to produce a product that consumers will buy, or that product (and in many cases, the business) will fail. The consumer isn't to blame for not buying a product they had no interest in. 1. I'm a lazy 16 year old bum, got a problem??:P 2. Yes, yes, I am quite aware of the nature of business. I am also aware that those who do not learn from history and let their close-mindedness overcome their logic will allow history to repeat itself. But hey, it's your choice. ;) yeah, Greyhawk is still alive, and look at how happy it's fans are... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:35 PM | Normally that would be the case. But I have weighed the justifications against the effects and found for me personally, supporting 4e is the way to go. I have neither the time nor the motivation to support an underground movement. You say that as if we only have two choices. I'm not supporting the 4E Realms, but I'm also not supporting "an underground movement". I simply prefer to keep *my* Realms the way it is, and I'm satisfied with that. And that takes even less time and motivation than comforming to a completely new design of the Realms, as far as time and motivation are factors in this for me. You can disagree and that is just fine. It's your Realms. Of course it is. That's why I don't feel anyone "should" do anything. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:37 PM | 1. I'm a lazy 16 year old bum, got a problem??:P Sorry, I thought that admwhatever person was the one who posted the link.:embarrass 2. Yes, yes, I am quite aware of the nature of business. I am also aware that those who do not learn from history and let their close-mindedness overcome their logic will allow history to repeat itself. But hey, it's your choice. ;) What are you implying? That I'm close-minded and illogical? I would absolutely disagree with that. And I still fail to see what Greyhawk has to do with this discussion. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:40 PM | You say that as if we only have two choices. I'm not supporting the 4E Realms, but I'm also not supporting "an underground movement". I simply prefer to keep *my* Realms the way it is, and I'm satisfied with that. And that takes even less time and motivation than comforming to a completely new design of the Realms, as far as time and motivation are factors in this for me. Of course it is. That's why I don't feel anyone "should" do anything. So you want an unchanging Realms that never canontically advances huh? No, nobody should do anything, nobody has an obligation to do anything, and if you are happy right now with what you got, you don't have to do anything. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:41 PM | So you want an unchanging Realms that never canontically advances huh? No, nobody should do anything, nobody has an obligation to do anything, and if you are happy right now with what you got, you don't have to do anything. If you're going to put words in my mouth like you just did, then I will exit this discussion. I can't discuss a heated topic with people who can't be civil. And no, I DO NOT have an obligation to buy luxury products! Neither does anyone else. I am sick and tired of people insisting that they do. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:41 PM | What are you implying? That I'm close-minded and illogical? I would absolutely disagree with that. And I still fail to see what Greyhawk has to do with this discussion. Um, where did you pull that from, I was never specifically directing it at you. The second part of your statement just makes me wanna get tripped...:confused: |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:42 PM | If you're going to put words in my mouth like you just did, then I will exit this discussion. I can't discuss a heated topic with people who can't be civil. How am I not being civil??? I am perfectly calm and collected right now, in fact, I feel stoned, not angry. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:45 PM | How am I not being civil??? I am perfectly calm and collected right now, in fact, I feel stoned, not angry. You can be calm and also uncivil. I consider putting words in my mouth to be uncivil. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:46 PM | You can be calm and also uncivil. I consider putting words in my mouth to be uncivil. Whatever, if I offended you in any way, I apologize, for that was not my intent. I am just a little desperate right now, because things for the Realms seem quite grim... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:48 PM | Um, where did you pull that from, I was never specifically directing it at you. "Hey, it's your choice.";) Wasn't directed at me? Then who was it meant for? The second part of your statement just makes me wanna get tripped...:confused: You still haven't explained your Greyhawk point here. You've just made vague statements about that setting and how "unhappy" the fans are. That's not a cogent argument. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:48 PM | Whatever, if I offended you in any way, I apologize, for that was not my intent. OK, I'll take your word on that. Thank you. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:49 PM | "Hey, it's your choice.";) Wasn't directed at me? Then who was it meant for? You still haven't explained your Greyhawk point here. You've just made vague statements about that setting and how "unhappy" the fans are. That's not a cogent argument. 1. That was directed at you, and aren't I speaking the truth, it is your choice. My description of history was not directed at you. 2. Well, the Greyhawk fans thought their setting would be improved if they stopped supporting WoTC. Well, look at them now.:) |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:50 PM | OK, I'll take your word on that. Thank you. You know me better than that Rino, I hate uncivil convos. I am a Hand of Karsus after all.:cool: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:53 PM | 1. That was directed at you, and aren't I speaking the truth, it is your choice. My description of history was not directed at you. Again, I'll take your word for it. The way you wrote it came off as a bit confrontational to me, and that's why I was annoyed. 2. Well, the Greyhawk fans thought their setting would be improved if they stopped supporting WoTC. Well, look at them now.:) Which fans?:P Seriously, I don't think I know enough about what happened with that setting in the 90s (I think?) or the reactions of the setting's fans to make a judgment one way or the other. Heck, at the time I had no real idea of what D&D even WAS. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:54 PM | You know me better than that Rino, I hate uncivil convos. I am a Hand of Karsus after all.:cool: Of course.:) |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 07:55 PM | Again, I'll take your word for it. The way you wrote it came off as a bit confrontational to me, and that's why I was annoyed. Which fans?:P Seriously, I don't think I know enough about what happened with that setting in the 90s (I think?) or the reactions of the setting's fans to make a judgment one way or the other. Heck, at the time I had no real idea of what D&D even WAS. 1. I apologize if it seemed that way, I was a little frustrated to tell you the truth, and that was probably why. Try not to overreact to your feelings though, because you can sometimes misunderstand people. 2. The ones over at the Greyhawk boards just beggin' WoTC to accept them back;) In the 90s, I was still an infant. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 07:59 PM | 1. I apologize if it seemed that way, I was a little frustrated to tell you the truth, and that was probably why. Try not to overreact to your feelings though, because you can sometimes misunderstand people. Very true. I'm sorry I got snippy, myself. 2. The ones over at the Greyhawk boards just beggin' WoTC to accept them back;) Don't visit those boards.:) I do like the Greyhawk setting and all, but I'm more a fan of the Realms than a fan of Greyhawk. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 08:04 PM | Very true. I'm sorry I got snippy, myself. Don't visit those boards.:) I do like the Greyhawk setting and all, but I'm more a fan of the Realms than a fan of Greyhawk. Hell, I'm not a Greyhawk fan at all, I just go over once and a while to see how the old bitties are doing:) The Realms are definatly my favorite setting, with Dragonlance at second. I really don't have the time to follow more than one setting right now however, and DL seems to be going by the wayside anyway. I can understand, since my mode of argument often confounds Karsus himself;). Just look at the millions of net fights I had with him :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-01-08, 08:39 PM | Hell, I'm not a Greyhawk fan at all, I just go over once and a while to see how the old bitties are doing:) The Realms are definatly my favorite setting, with Dragonlance at second. I really don't have the time to follow more than one setting right now however, and DL seems to be going by the wayside anyway. I can understand, since my mode of argument often confounds Karsus himself;). Just look at the millions of net fights I had with him :D So I see...:-P |
| Lord Karsus02-02-08, 02:35 AM | I can understand, since my mode of argument often confounds Karsus himself;). Just look at the millions of net fights I had with him :D -We fight? Please, our jousts are just practice for some other people around here...:nonono: -And, as I understand it, most Greyhawk people "left" because TSR made drastic changes to the setting. A lot of the fanbase felt that things were too drastically changed, and they stopped buying books, etc. TSR/WotC then dropped the setting, since it was no longer worth it. MT is one of those people. I'm sure he has some interesting insights. |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 12:36 PM | -We fight? Please, our jousts are just practice for some other people around here...:nonono: Very true, I am only 16 so I am still honing my skills.;) |
| Lord Karsus02-03-08, 12:58 PM | Very true, I am only 16 so I am still honing my skills.;) -Exactly. I am preparing you for trials and tribulations yet to come. :cool: |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 12:59 PM | -Exactly. I am preparing you for trials and tribulations yet to come. :cool: Of course sensei:rolleyes: |
| Lord Karsus02-03-08, 01:10 PM | -Very good. For your next assignment..."Wax on, wax off..." -And, stop being uncivil to Rino. If you were. I don't know... |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 01:12 PM | -And, stop being uncivil to Rino. If you were. I don't know... She needs to get a grip on her emotions first. Seriously, most people woudn't even blink at what I said. |
| Lord Karsus02-03-08, 01:18 PM | She needs to get a grip on her emotions first. Seriously, most people woudn't even blink at what I said. -Hey, you stop that. :: Waggles finger :: |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 01:33 PM | -Hey, you stop that. :: Waggles finger :: Hey, she even admitted it in the thread. I am not being insulting, I am trying to apply logic to a sticky situation. I do properly apologize when I anger her, but you have to realize that some factors are far beyond my control. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-03-08, 04:49 PM | I didn't admit that I "can't get a grip on my emotions." I just apologized for being snippy. LK, thanks for explaining about what happened with Greyhawk. I'd love to hear MT's thoughts on it, since he was "there", apparently. |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 05:04 PM | I didn't admit that I "can't get a grip on my emotions." I just apologized for being snippy. . Ahh, sorry for misinterperating you. Yes, perhaps if you talk to MT63 about it you will understand why I am standing so firmly against grougnardise now. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-03-08, 07:06 PM | There is no such word as "grognardise". |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 07:14 PM | There is no such word as "grognardise". Oh, you know what I mean.;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-03-08, 07:21 PM | Ehhhh...more or less, but it's a poorly defined concept. |
| XHereticX02-03-08, 07:24 PM | Ehhhh...more or less, but it's a poorly defined concept. But I'm not trying to be technical, I'm trying to make a general point. Just like certain perverted slang words are poorly defined, but people still get the point. I look at history and look at the current state of the Realms, and the similarities terrify me. |
| Lord Karsus02-04-08, 12:05 AM | -With Greyhawk, though, if they (WotC/TSR/whoever they were at the time) hadn't changed things so drastically, Greyhawk might still be 'alive', and might still be being played in an official capacity. If you are implying that the people who "walked away" from the setting after WotC/TSR/Whoever changed the setting so much are to blame for it's eventual demise, well, that's just silly, in my book. That's like blaming slaves for being enslaved, blaming women for 'dressing provacativley' and looking pretty for being sexually assaulted, and so on. |
| Charles Phipps02-04-08, 06:59 AM | -With Greyhawk, though, if they (WotC/TSR/whoever they were at the time) hadn't changed things so drastically, Greyhawk might still be 'alive', and might still be being played in an official capacity. I'll ignore the blatant weirdness of comparing walking away from a game setting to sexist assault dude, :P That's overstating the issue a lot. 1. Greyhawk failed because Gary Gygax the Creator walked away from the setting and in his official setting books blew up the world. 2. Then TSR/WOTC didn't support it like a hot potato. General doesn't mean Greyhawk, it means generic. |
| Lord Karsus02-04-08, 11:48 AM | I'll ignore the blatant weirdness of comparing walking away from a game setting to sexist assault dude, :P That's overstating the issue a lot. -Not in the capacity that I was explaining, no. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus02-05-08, 04:33 PM | I don't know what "grognardise" is tho..... |
| ikki02-05-08, 04:48 PM | Hmm, this provides much space for pondering..... "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah":D You do know... moses talked to the burning bush, told him to go away, until finally upon the question: "what is your name" -the burning bush answered "JHV". Now, JHV has been taken as jehova or jahve the name.. but really means "none of your business". In other words, moses never really got an answer ;) |
| Lord Karsus02-05-08, 05:03 PM | I don't know what "grognardise" is tho..... -It's a word that Ubbergeek made up that is "Paradise for Grognards...Grognardise". You do know... moses talked to the burning bush, told him to go away, until finally upon the question: "what is your name" -the burning bush answered "JHV". Now, JHV has been taken as jehova or jahve the name.. but really means "none of your business". In other words, moses never really got an answer ;) -Eh? Bad joke. |
| Kenzuki02-05-08, 08:33 PM | You do know... moses talked to the burning bush, told him to go away, until finally upon the question: "what is your name" -the burning bush answered "JHV". Now, JHV has been taken as jehova or jahve the name.. but really means "none of your business". In other words, moses never really got an answer ;) That's not what my Bible says happened.... |