Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XHereticX 06-09-07, 05:49 PM	Ok, I have heard multiple times that the Githyanki and Githzerai originally came from a world in the FR universe called Glyth. However, I was just looking in wikipedia today and came across an article saying that Pharagos was the world which the Gith came from. I am confused, can anyone help me here?
Gray Richardson 06-09-07, 08:26 PM	The Gith peoples were originally humans many, many generations ago, but have diverged quite significantly from their human root stock to become a separate, oviparous species. The original human root stock came from the planet Pharagos. If I recall, there are still humans that live on Pharagos that look like your typical human race and bear little resemblance to their Githyanki cousins. These humans were bred as slaves by the Illithids and transplanted throughout the multiverse to serve their mindflayer masters on the far flung worlds of the Illithid empire. Presumably the characteristics of the modern gith peoples were selected for by the Illithids to promote either better servants or better tasting brains. The planet Glyth in Toril's solar system was one of the illithid colony worlds. I had put forward the theory awhile back that the Gith rebellion may have actually started on Glyth. This theory is based on only a very few clues from lore, and is by no means confirmed anywhere (so far) in sourcebooks. 1) it suggests in the Guide to the Astral Plane that Gith was named after her homeworld. While Gith and Glyth are not exactly alike, they sound enough alike that it is conceivable they were originally the same word that has diverged over the course of 12,000 years through linguistic drift. Or possibly they are the same word with slightly different grammatical declension, for instance the "l" infix might indicate a genitive case, or perhaps might be an animate or female gender marker. 2) Illithid refugees from Glyth first colonized Toril in spelljammer ships that arrived around -11,000 DR, more than 12,000 years ago. It has never been said what the refugees were fleeing, but it could have been the Gith rebellion. 3) There seem to be conflicting sources and estimates of when the Gith rebellion took place, but if you extrapolate backwards considering the number of the current Vlaakith CLVII, and the fact she has ruled for a thousand years and no other queen has ruled as long as she, 12,000 + years ago is at least within the ballpark of when the rebellion could have happened, which makes Glyth a good candidate for the start of the rebellion. This lore is just speculation. But what we do know is that, although the Gith people were originally taken from Pharagos, it was very probably not the homeworld where Gith was raised as a slave.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 08:33 PM	Ohh, Glyth was just one slave planet out of many.
Old Sage 06-09-07, 09:48 PM	The Glyth reference comes from several sources, most notably Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. If you read the write-up of Oryndoll, you'll see Eric Boyd suggests pretty strongly that the illithids arrived in the Realms circa -11,000 DR from the planet of Glyth via spelljammers.
Suin Bahhar 06-12-07, 08:38 AM	Vlaakith CLXVII is presumably dead right? Will this spell the end of the level cap of 16 level githyanki's (as the terrible tyrantlich consumed all gith that rose to 17th level). Who directs the githyanki now, a new necromancerqueen? Vlaakith CLXVIII? N.B. I read about Vlaakith in Wiki. It said she could've also ascended to godhood instead of being slain by the PC's in the adventure module in Dragon #100. A lot more interesting... Having a Vlaakith with Divine rank 2 or so without acces to Fearun except through her githyanki astral raiders, lead by a clergy of necropriests. She should get some portfolios though, maybe evil and domination.
Gray Richardson 06-12-07, 08:52 AM	While she might have been slain, she is still around. Lich's are extremely durable folk. Vlaakith is still the lich-queen of the Githyanki.
Old Sage 06-12-07, 11:13 AM	N.B. I read about Vlaakith in Wiki. It said she could've also ascended to godhood instead of being slain by the PC's in the adventure module in Dragon #100.I think you mean DUNGEON #100.
Suin Bahhar 06-12-07, 11:49 AM	Oo Yeah. oops; brainfarted
ripvanwormer 06-12-07, 12:54 PM	There's no "official" resolution to the Dungeon #100 adventure. While Planewalker.com is assuming Vlaakith died, recent WotC products like the Planar Handbook still maintain that she's alive. Dragon #298 mentions an ancient gith empire on the world of Oerth called Zarum, which was conquered by the illithids as their empire expanded. Apparently the empire was in the Underdark. One of their cities was called Anithor.
Sylvaroth 06-22-07, 10:06 AM	A little off topic: Githyanki do have these bony protrusions on their elbows and knees. I remember I once read a description that mentioned these, but can't remember exactly where I read it. Any ideas?
Gray Richardson 06-23-07, 02:20 AM	That is the ulnar plexus, or gursha, as they are called in the Gith language. It consists of thick folds or lobes of skin protecting fatty sacks of fluid surrounding tangled networks of ganglia depending from the ulnar nerve. These sacks are coursing with cerebrospinal fluid and are quite tasty to illithids. When ruptured, the sacks appear to be filled with tangles of tiny thin strands like white spaghetti. Millennia ago, the illithids took human slaves from the planet Pharagos to serve them on the countless worlds of their star-spanning empire. The humans were as oxen to their illithid masters. Through selective breeding, the illithids altered key features of their humanoid livestock to make for better workers and tastier meals. For instance, the distinctive shape of the githyanki skull was achieved over thousands of generations by selecting for the precise shape that best facilitated the brain-eating experience. They were looking for a skull that was most easy to grasp, and which conformed ergonomically for comfortable tentacle placement and ease of manipulation during feeding. It had to be durable enough to withstand the rigors of slave labor and battle, yet just the right thickness and consistency for ease of pentration of the illithid mouthparts. The sloping shape allowed for easier extraction of the gray matter and juices from within. And the skull shape had to be overall aesthetically pleasing and palatable to the illithid diner. Pharagosian reproductive organs were manipulated to make them oviparous, because extended pregnancy dramatically impacted the efficiency of workers. Illithid slave breeders cultivated the egg-laying trait to ensure swift return of female slaves to duty. Gestation ex utero (incubation) also allowed for huge economies of scale, as a mere handful of slaves under the command of an illithid overseer could tend hundreds of githyanki eggs while their parents tilled or battled in the fields. This also served to quell troublesome emotional attachments, preventing the forging of familial bonds, which solved all sorts of behavioral problems for the illithids. The mind flayers no longer had to deal with certain "irrational" behaviors engendered by the parental instinct--including violence, backtalk, unseemly pleading, low work productivity, illness and depression when human infants were sent off to other worlds or ranches, disciplined or abused, put to work in harsh conditions and/or eaten. Gith children were also more malleable if raised under the stern care of illithid brood wardens. This allowed the Githyanki infants to imprint upon their illithid masters. The mind flayers raised the githlings to see illithids as the natural source of all authority, and as sole providers of all nourishment, shelter, clothing and other physical requirements. The overseers sought to instill their slaves with maximal dependence. Yet another modification to the githyanki phenotype was the development of the ulnar plexuses. A brain can only be eaten once. So, to ensure that brains are harvested from the tastiest specimens at the peak of their "ripeness", illithid brain ranchers sample the taste of the ulnar nerve at the back of the elbow in their humanoid slaves, at the only point in the human body where a major nerve is exposed at an accessible point near the surface of the skin. In humans, this point is called the funny bone. Illithid ranchers bred their Pharagosian slaves to produce ulnar nerves that protruded more prominently, and as this feature grew larger over generations, the slavers acquired the taste for the fluid and tissues of this nerve as a delicacy in its own right. Gith slaves were selected for producing bigger and bigger ulnar bulges containing larger and larger ganglial clusters, full to bursting with delectable spinal fluid. The farther from the ulnar nerve that the ganglia branched, the easier for the illithids to feed from them without damaging the main ulnar nerve or impeding function of the forearm or hands. Githyanki that produced multiple lobes were even more highly prized for breeding stock. And of course, since a brain can only be eaten once, these extra nerve sacks allowed the mind flayers to snack on their slaves without killing them and losing valuable workers before they were ripe. By sampling the ulnar plexus, the illithids could gage over time when a slave's brain had reached optimal flavor and maturity and was ready for harvesting. They could also ensure that tastier slaves had the chance to produce lots of offspring before ingestion. Githyanki don't like to discuss this fact with outsiders. This anatomical feature is both a badge of shame and a badge of honor for them. However, as with any physical feature, the githyanki themselves find gursha to be quite attractive, and particularly beautiful ones are one of the characteristics that githyankis look for in a mate. Go figure.
Sylvaroth 06-23-07, 05:00 AM	Yuck :yuck: Great article :D Still, I think it is your own explanation, right? I am looking for 'official' references.
Andyr 06-23-07, 07:08 AM	Nice stuff, Gray. :) One query--I thought that only the githyanki laid eggs, with the githzerai breeding like mammals? Of course, I guess the 'zerai could have reverted to mammalian traits; or perhaps they were two separate lines of slave stock before the uprising, too, and individuals followed their own kind during the Gith/Zerthimon split.
ripvanwormer 06-23-07, 10:27 AM	One query--I thought that only the githyanki laid eggs, with the githzerai breeding like mammals? This has never been officially defined. We know githyanki lay eggs, but we don't know anything about githzerai reproduction. Githzerai haven't been detailed nearly as thoroughly as their kin. Many people assume that githzerai lay eggs if githyanki do. My own preference is that they don't, because the chaotic nature of Limbo/The Warrior's Rest - particularly the miniflux that can transform objects that aren't under constant surveillance - could make any attempt to incubate eggs outside the protection of a coherent body problematic. You'd end up with horrific mutations, I think. That's why slaadi lay their eggs inside living beings, to protect them so that they remain recognizable. Probably before their Spawning Stone was created, when every slaad looked completely different, none of them bothered incubating their young in living creatures, but probably most of them didn't lay eggs then, either. I think githyanki eggs, with their leathery shells, are the result of long-term interbreeding with their red dragon allies. Githyanki are more reptilian than githzerai in general. Back in the time of the illithid empire, illithids may well have altered some or all of their slaves to lay eggs in order to reduce the bonds they felt with their children and to allow them to keep the eggs of their slaves in the brain pools with their own eggs. Back then the eggs of the gith forerunners would have been soft-shelled and jellylike, like those of their masters. The split between Gith and Zerthimon was idealogical rather than racial; it was a civil war, not a war between competing ethnicities. Probably both races originally laid jellylike, amphibious eggs, and after their split the githzerai bred themselves to become more mammalian, while the early githyanki bred with dragons.
Sylvaroth 06-23-07, 11:39 AM	So githyanki are not only an illithid-mutated slave race, but also half-dragon descended. That's actually a quite ingenious explanation for the reason why githyanki lay eggs. Now back to the things on their elbows and knees, will we? In fact I thought they were bones rather than sacks of skin.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-05-07, 07:16 AM	That begs the question: do Pirates of Gith lay eggs too? They should, shouldn't they? Assuming they even exist anymore.
ripvanwormer 07-05-07, 11:06 AM	That begs the question: do Pirates of Gith lay eggs too? They should, shouldn't they? I think so. They're essentially identical to githyanki in every way I can see. They spend more of their time on the Material Plane than most githyanki do, but they still have the ability to reach the Astral in their living ships. Probably they've rejected the githyanki queen, which would be the only meaningful distinction. They're made to be "githyanki in space," which is kind of a lame idea until someone actually gets around to fleshing them out. Assuming they even exist anymore. Unless the old books that mention them stop existing, the pirates of Gith still exist. Stop apologizing for mentioning older material!
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-05-07, 03:05 PM	They're made to be "githyanki in space," which is kind of a lame idea until someone actually gets around to fleshing them out. What a malady. Unless the old books that mention them stop existing, the pirates of Gith still exist. Stop apologizing for mentioning older material! Yes sir! The mentioning of older material will continue! For the glory of Bral!
Calmar 07-05-07, 04:07 PM	The 'githyanki in space' thing does in and for itself not sound too bad to me. Just a few days ago I wondered why githyanki (at least AFAIK) are not encountered very often in space, when there is significant illithid presence.
lavekkia 07-05-07, 07:28 PM	They can play an interesting role in a Gith heavy campaign like mine: a third force (uhm maybe fourth ofr fifth, and yes i like complicated campaigns ;) ) to throw in that strives to remain neutral and exterminate illithids
ripvanwormer 07-05-07, 09:36 PM	The 'githyanki in space' thing does in and for itself not sound too bad to me. It's not bad in itself; it just isn't very interesting in itself. They're like githyanki, but they live in space. Okay, but how are they like themselves? How are they different, and why are they different? What's their history; what are their goals and dreams? We don't know; we just have a one-page 2e monster entry. They could be very interesting and very useful if they and their relationship with the githyanki were fleshed out more.
PharaunMizzrym 07-06-07, 01:00 AM	I found some information here. http://www.spelljammer.org/monsters/conversions/PirateOfGith.html
Lord_Madrigan 07-06-07, 01:06 PM	Where did the Gith come from? Well the Mommie Gith and The Daddy Gith.....
Calmar 07-09-07, 04:35 PM	That they are a subrace of the gith is lame. I thought they are normal githyanki who use some kind of modified astral ships to enter material space and pursue the race's goal to get rid of the illithid, just as they do on the planes and on many material planets. :nonono: Given the fact, that space and planets are just different locations on the one plane, such a subrace is useless and absolutely does not fit with the flavor of the gith. Zerthimon's Proclamation of the Two Skies should remain the only division of the race, since githyanki culture/ queens (as I am seeing it) would never allow any further secession.
Zsych 07-14-07, 02:28 AM	If the gith were imprinted onto Illithid as children, and bred for that, there should be almost no chance of them breaking the fold(most of them), and the Illithid should have little trouble training more in a similar fashion, using slavers or some such to get their basic stock.
Calmar 07-14-07, 04:27 AM	Yeah, but the times that the Illithids ruled the greatest empire in history are long gone, due to the gith uprising. Now they're living in scattered groups, hunted by githyanki and githzerai, surrounded by mighty drow citystates and the kingdoms of the duergar (= another failed attempt to create a slave race). The tentacled ones are pretty much pushed in the corner at the moment, as far as I see it.
Zsych 07-14-07, 06:34 AM	Seems they need to find and populate an unused world, and restart the slave system there. Hmm... not even sure if psionics can create portals. Oh well... Ask Ioulaum for help :)
ripvanwormer 07-14-07, 11:41 AM	They still do have several worlds under their control: Glyth, Falx, Ssirik Akuar, and Penumbra. They're just not united into an empire anymore; each world is independent, and ruled by a number of rival elder brains. There's no longer a single Overmind to bind them into a multiversal force. This isn't to say that mind flayers are weak or not a threat. Their power may be growing, and chronomancers report that in the future their multiversal empire will rise again (or perhaps for the first time). But currently they have many strong rivals in the Underdark (drow, duergar, derro, deep dwarves, cloakers), wildspace (neogi, beholders, syllix, elves, scro), and the planes (githyanki, githzerai, psurlons).
Mirt_The_Money_Lender 07-18-07, 04:07 PM	I want to thank everyone for the great information on both races of Gith.