Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 06-11-07, 01:12 PM	What are the origins of the very first human sorcerors? Would wizards have a more ancient history or do you think in the ancient times the human first showed aptitude for manipulating the weave through sorcery? Did any of the Gods of Magic at the Ancient Times have something to do with it?
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 03:04 PM	To answer your original question, I believe that honor goes to the ancient baelnorn Pharos, who has been standing gaurd over the Calimemnon Crystal for nine thousand years. :) If you are talking about Humans and Sorcerors ONLY, then that might be the Simbul, but only because she was ret-conned in 3e.
Snarkbone 06-11-07, 03:06 PM	Can't recall the exact story, but originally there were only wizards, then right after Time of Trouble, Mystra created sorcerers, or rather they came to be durring the whole mess of that time, and she simply didn't stop them from keeping on going. Simbul (one of the 7 sisters) is supposed to be the example for those. She's one of the first few sorcerers, but I don't know if she is the first, she's in the sources specifically to illustrate the class when it was first presented to FR. I think it has something to do with some god (Malar?, can't remember) claiming portfolio of wild magic, which was then reclaimed back by Mystra.
Suin Bahhar 06-11-07, 05:12 PM	So sorcerers are only like a 20 years old phenomena? Interesting. Malar toying with wild magic? Huh, what would a beast want with that?
Faraer 06-11-07, 05:27 PM	No. The 3E sorcerer class may represent more than one thing in the Realms, but the main one is an uncommon, spontaneous magical "wild talent" that was known to exist pre-3E, and indefinitely far back in Faerūn's history. (But in the Realms the word "sorcerer" is most often used as a more sinister near-synonym of "mage" or "wizard", not to refer to the D&D class.)
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 06:23 PM	To answer your original question, I believe that honor goes to the ancient baelnorn Pharos, who has been standing gaurd over the Calimemnon Crystal for nine thousand years. :) -Ka'Narlist was already long dead before Pharos was even a twinkle in his father's eyes. :cool: -He wasn't (that we know) a Sorcerer, but whatever. A Mage is a mage is a mage.
Murmur Maelstrom 06-11-07, 06:49 PM	-Ka'Narlist was already long dead before Pharos was even a twinkle in his father's eyes. :cool: -He wasn't (that we know) a Sorcerer, but whatever. A Mage is a mage is a mage. who is Ka'Narlist? What source?
GothicDan 06-11-07, 07:34 PM	Dark Elven High Mage of the city of Atorrnash in the realm of Ilythiir. We 'know' that only a few decades to centuries (exact years aren't used) after the arrival of the first Sun and Moon Elves on Faerun, he was already at this level of power, power enough to even impress the visiting Sharlario, who had seen the great High Magic workings of Faerie. However, this may not even have any grain of truth in it, since it was part of the Evermeet novel, and specifically drawn from an in-character story narrative source. That being said... Let's see. Ioulaum WAS a human, and he's pretty old. But the Imaskari predated Netheril by many thousands of years, and there's 'rumors' (almost factual) that Halaster Blackcloak either is a survivor of Imaskari or a student of their arts directly after their fall in the Raurinese (sp) plains. The Srinshee is a very, very old Elven High Mage. We know very little of her original origins, and we cannot try to judge age simply by level, since Elves still had some remnants of level restrictions even in latter 2E products. Her 30 levels could actually be 30,000 years old. We know very little as to the Creator Races magical origins. We know they were powerful in magic even before the coming of the Elves, though. And then there's the possibility of draconic archmages, too. How many of those are left, if any, has never really been fully tackled. And Larloch is described in-game, from Lords of Darkness, as being "one of the oldest non-draconic beings." We know that he was an Archwizard of Netheril, and just about nothing other than his past. But since this is a factual line (given in his stat-block), it means he would have to predate a lot other NPCs. He could always have actually been around BEFORE Netheril and simply integrated into the society (sort of like the Sarrukh Terraseer did, to a point). If we're going strictly by possible human archmages, I'd say Halastar or Larloch. If we're including Elves, then the possibility of Ka'Narlist is on the list (mostly from stories), as is the Simbul (undisclosed age but canonically real and ancient). If you start going further back, it just gets harder and harder to even estimate, because we have little information on these eras.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 07:38 PM	Can't recall the exact story, but originally there were only wizards, then right after Time of Trouble, Mystra created sorcerers, or rather they came to be durring the whole mess of that time, and she simply didn't stop them from keeping on going. Simbul (one of the 7 sisters) is supposed to be the example for those. She's one of the first few sorcerers, but I don't know if she is the first, she's in the sources specifically to illustrate the class when it was first presented to FR. I think it has something to do with some god (Malar?, can't remember) claiming portfolio of wild magic, which was then reclaimed back by Mystra. What twisted source did you get that story from? It sounds like the DragonLance story put through a cheese grater and then sprinkled over Faerun. FR never has made a distinction between wizardry and sorcery in the world as distinct sources of magic, the Simbul has been described exactly as she is now since 1E (predating the Time of Troubles). And it was Talos, under the guise of a consumed demideity named Malak, that tried to gain the portfolios of Wild Magic and destructive magic from Mystra. He failed miserably, never even getting close to achieving his goal.
BrennonGoldeye 06-11-07, 08:06 PM	Oh how fun. :dancin: Who is the most ancient sorceror on Fearun (living or dead)? Um, I would say proly some schnoozing undead Sarrukh. Add Immortals to the mix and those races are predated by........Shar ? Sune? Tymora? What are the origins of the very first human sorcerors? First reference I know of is Thaeravel, whose sorcerors were mind-raped by Therion's spawn. That would have been almost 4800yrs ago. That would be a bit before the ToT.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 09:06 PM	who is Ka'Narlist? What source?See the Evermeet novel and "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" from the Best of Elaine Cunningham -- which was originally printed in Realms of the Arcane.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 09:10 PM	My take on sorcerers in my FR is very similar to what Ed outlined in Temptation of Elminster. I've established a possible link between sorcerers and dragon/draconic bloodlines -- which hints at where the sorcerers get their dragonblood from. In the novel itself, it notes the dragonsblood experiments undertaken by Cordorlar, in the waning days of Netheril.
Faraer 06-11-07, 09:20 PM	I prefer that as a rather than the source of "sorcerous" Art.
XHereticX 06-11-07, 09:21 PM	Most likely the first human with draconic blood show its magic talent flowing through his/her veins.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 09:38 PM	I'm not sure why it's so critical that the blood be draconic. Some of the Creator Races were around during the time of dragons, and just as magically puissant. Not to mention strange primordial magical anomalies that could have manifested throughout early Abeir-Toril while the Weave and Mystryl were still young. In the world I'm currently working on, my version of a "Sorcerer" (Adepts, those born with one, or very rarely, more, innate magical abilities; kind of like psychics, or now that I think about it, Dragonmarked) is a result of frequent overexposure to the same type of magical energy in a lineage. Regularly making Pacts with Spirits (in which, under my mechanics, a Spirit actually lends someone one or more of their supernatural abilities for a time) is thought to be one way of possibly causing this ability to manifest somewhere in your bloodline. It's kind of like radiation-mutation, but more esoteric. And, oddly enough, if you are born an Adept, you CANNOT learn actual spell casting (wizardly arts); though you CAN learn prayers (divine in-stone invocations passed down ages ago from deities or their Spiritual servants) appropriate to your religious lineage. A person that is a Fireball Adept couldn't become a Cleric of a Water God, for example. The radiation literally spoils any chance of coherent mixtures of arcane quantum probability patterns forming. I actually have some pretty big prophecies tied into the True Heir of the Emperor of the Sun actually being born with the ability to become a Cleric and also manifest all of the appropriate Adept abilities. In this setting, the Nine Noble Houses were each descended from the Emperor of the Sun (sort of supreme deity type) imbuing (in one way or anohter...) them with his blessings, so the number of Adepts among their families is frighteningly high. I'm going to love the reaction people have to the fact that all Nobles have white-blond hair and ethereal blue eyes (representing the corona of the sun and the desert sky) and rule over the darker-skinned common populace (more classically Near Eastern, and at times northern African, in appearance). I'm so off topic today. I blame it on working way too long on writing and studying this weekend. I should really work on this setting more.
BrennonGoldeye 06-11-07, 09:47 PM	See the Evermeet novel and "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" from the Best of Elaine Cunningham -- which was originally printed in Realms of the Arcane. Mmmmm, just seeing that book on my shelf makes my nipples hard, mmmmm.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 10:06 PM	Luckily, the Lady K wasn't leaning over my shoulder when I read that, Bren. ;)
GothicDan 06-11-07, 10:17 PM	Ew, Brennon. :)
Arbourean 06-11-07, 10:33 PM	I'm surprised Ka'Narlist did not ascend, considering he created one race, was the patron of another, and does possess a very powerful artifact. That vest is still missing, and they never did find the body during the Sundering. Hmm.....
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 10:44 PM	To answer your original question, I believe that honor goes to the ancient baelnorn Pharos, who has been standing gaurd over the Calimemnon Crystal for nine thousand years. :)Well, if we are talking humanoids, there is a group of Sarrukh liches, including the Terraseer, that live (or at least unlive) in Oreme and have been around for something like 34,000 years. ;)
boards 06-11-07, 10:50 PM	Well, if we are talking humanoids, there is a group of Sarrukh liches, including the Terraseer, that live (or at least unlive) in Oreme and have been around for something like 34,000 years. ;) Do we know who is older between the Terraseer and that immortal albino Sarrukh who betrayed Seth to worship Set. Given that he is still alive he would have to be the oldest living being native to the material plane.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 11:19 PM	Why would he, exactly? Set didn't even have a presence in Toril, canonically, until the Mulhorandi pantheon arrived.
NightBreeze 06-11-07, 11:21 PM	By the way, what is the Terraseer currently doing?
boards 06-11-07, 11:29 PM	From what I remember he was the last king of Okoth, and when that kingdom fell, he sort out the home plane of Merrshalk, who made him his chosen. During the ToT he lost contact with Sseth (reborn Merrshalk) and made a deal with Set, to bind the sleeping Sseth. He did this and lost his chosen status and as such is nearing the end of his lifecycle, though he is somewhere in the vicinity of 34,000 -35000 years old.
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 12:45 AM	Mmmmm, just seeing that book on my shelf makes my nipples hard, mmmmm. -The book was that good. I'm surprised Ka'Narlist did not ascend, considering he created one race, was the patron of another, and does possess a very powerful artifact. -Because...:shifty:...He's not dead...He's out there, somewhere... By the way, what is the Terraseer currently doing? -Sleeping, though I think his "time to rule" is either coming up, or has already arrived. The Srinshee is a very, very old Elven High Mage. We know very little of her original origins, and we cannot try to judge age simply by level, since Elves still had some remnants of level restrictions even in latter 2E products. Her 30 levels could actually be 30,000 years old. -Well, we know that she has claimed to have grown up in Sharrven, though she might have been lying. She also made a home, at some point, in Yrlaphon. Finally, she was the final matron of House Srinshee of Srinshinnar. That narrows the possibilities, slightly. -I've been meaning to ask Steve Schend about Srinshinnar. I think I'll do that right now...
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 01:18 AM	Do we know who is older between the Terraseer and that immortal albino Sarrukh who betrayed Seth to worship Set. Given that he is still alive he would have to be the oldest living being native to the material plane.If we only include D&D material. However, if we go further afield then that honor would have to go to Nathan Brazil, the wandering Jew, who has survived through the end of the universe several times, as well as multiple big-bangs. ;)
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 01:25 AM	-Met him once. What a guy.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:26 AM	I need to make some more background for my Baelnorn. He likes to collect things. Like buildings.
NightBreeze 06-12-07, 10:07 AM	-Because...:shifty:...He's not dead...He's out there, somewhere... Gah! I though he was dead... *considers the introduction of a new villain in his campaign...duh...whatever*
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 10:36 AM	Gah! I though he was dead... *considers the introduction of a new villain in his campaign...duh...whatever* -Nothing ever implicitly stated that he died. Like a lot of other fantasy, there's no proof until you see the body. And, Elaine left a lot of subtle hints that point towards the fact that he is alive, the most convincing one being that Lolth, his patron at the time, never was able to claim his soul after the Sundering, when he "died".
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 12:34 PM	FR never has made a distinction between wizardry and sorcery in the world as distinct sources of magic, the Simbul has been described exactly as she is now since 1E (predating the Time of Troubles). Simbul, before ToT... and yet daughter of Midnight, the Mystra after ToT... right. As for the story, it might be false, but I personally don't know of any Toril sorcerer pre-ToT. All you listed is elven High-magic (clearly distinct from sorcerers in sources) and wizards. Others didn't do much better.
Suin Bahhar 06-12-07, 02:11 PM	Im gonna side with the Sage here. The older editions of D&D had only a single mage class. Yet a few figures (such as the Simbul or the Terraseer) show wielding magic more with the force of their personality than with knowing and calculating formulae of the weave. All wizards and sorcerers of third edition are all the mages of second edition. Though it remains interesting who was the first to start wielding magic by sheer force of personality and will. My gut feeling says the first mages WERE sorcerers, as is fits a barbaric civilization more.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 04:47 PM	Simbul, before ToT... and yet daughter of Midnight, the Mystra after ToT... right. Ummm. . . where do you get the idea that Midnight/Mystra was the Simbul's mother? AFAIK it was Farm Girl/Mystra that was her mother. In fact, double checking F&P it states that the Farm Girl/Mystra created the Seven Sisters. I was pretty sure that was the case.
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 04:53 PM	Ummm. . . where do you get the idea that Midnight/Mystra was the Simbul's mother? AFAIK it was Farm Girl/Mystra that was her mother. In fact, double checking F&P it states that the Farm Girl/Mystra created the Seven Sisters. I was pretty sure that was the case. Yes that's what it is. I thought everyone with the Players and Setting guides (minimum, really) knew that, so I didn't have to explain, but OK. After Midnight ascended to full Mystra after ToT was over, she possessed a mortal woman and had 7 daughters on orders from Ao to lessen her personal power (since chosen require significant investment of divine energy). Simbul is one of those 7. So Simbul couldn't have been borne before ToT.
Faraer 06-12-07, 05:08 PM	As for the story, it might be false, but I personally don't know of any Toril sorcerer pre-ToT.Ed Greenwood:Re: Sorcerers: you got it right, Adam, they ARE bang-on for how I envisaged a lot of 'maverick' Realms characters (in 2nd Edition I got away with calling them "wild talents").The Hooded One:Ed always had sorcerers in the Realms (only they weren’t called that), but never any PCs.After Midnight ascended to full Mystra after ToT was over, she possessed a mortal woman . . . So Simbul couldn't have been borne before ToT.Someone's pulling someone's nipple. Out by 600 years or so.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 05:22 PM	As incorrect as all that might be, I kinda like the idea that the crazy farm girl was the Simbul's REAL mom, before she became Mystra. Would go a long way to explain the Simbul's intermitant 'insanity', and would be a nice tie-in as to why the Goddess loves her so, despite her wishes to destroy the magically creative Thayans. Also, she has taken the name of a former goddess, as well as weilding magic a little 'too' powerful for a mortal (wasn't she tearing Pit Fiends in half like tissue paper in Elminster in Hell?). I think, mayhap, there is more to her then meets the eye... ;)
Tyberian 06-12-07, 05:26 PM	Simbul, before ToT... and yet daughter of Midnight, the Mystra after ToT... right. As for the story, it might be false, but I personally don't know of any Toril sorcerer pre-ToT. All you listed is elven High-magic (clearly distinct from sorcerers in sources) and wizards. Others didn't do much better. What about Sarya from the Last Mythal Trilogy? I believe she was a half-fiend as opposed to a fey'ri and I think she was also a powerful sorceress as opposed to a wizard if my memory of the book serves me correctly. I think I saw stats for her somewhere but I can't place where.
Tyberian 06-12-07, 05:36 PM	Yes that's what it is. I thought everyone with the Players and Setting guides (minimum, really) knew that, so I didn't have to explain, but OK. After Midnight ascended to full Mystra after ToT was over, she possessed a mortal woman and had 7 daughters on orders from Ao to lessen her personal power (since chosen require significant investment of divine energy). Simbul is one of those 7. So Simbul couldn't have been borne before ToT. Let me get this straight. The Simbul has ruled for what, a hundred years or more, and was tutored by the previous ruler(s?) of Aglarond for years before that but she was born after the time of ToT which took place a scant 14 years before the FRCS book? A look through the histories at Alustriel's and Laeral's work throughout the entire north shows a legacy centuries in the making. I think in Evermeet, Alustriel (or perhaps it was Laeral) met Amluriel (sp?) when the queen of Evermeet was but a girl... I'm not sure off the top of my head abou the others, but Qilue is the youngest and she has been around awhile also.
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 05:53 PM	Let me get this straight. The Simbul has ruled for what, a hundred years or more, and was tutored by the previous ruler(s?) of Aglarond for years before that but she was born after the time of ToT which took place a scant 14 years before the FRCS book? A look through the histories at Alustriel's and Laeral's work throughout the entire north shows a legacy centuries in the making. I think in Evermeet, Alustriel (or perhaps it was Laeral) met Amluriel (sp?) when the queen of Evermeet was but a girl... I'm not sure off the top of my head abou the others, but Qilue is the youngest and she has been around awhile also. That will teach me to read Ed's novels (El in Hell is the most incoherent mess ever). You are right they were born between 761 and 767. But Simbul is still supposed to have been borne as the example of sorcerers.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 06:05 PM	El in Hell is in fact the only novel of Ed's that I read, and I liked it quite a bit, and did not get any impression of the Simbul being born after the ToT. I see no reason to blame your minsinterpretation on him. That being said, the Simbul wasn't "born" to be the best Sorceress. WotC turned her into an iconic Sorcerer for the setting when they converted her into 3E. Before that, she was a 30th level Wizard. (And the highest level caster statted up to the 2E campaign setting, I think.)
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 06:18 PM	El in Hell is in fact the only novel of Ed's that I read, and I liked it quite a bit, and did not get any impression of the Simbul being born after the ToT. I see no reason to blame your minsinterpretation on him. What makes it virtually impossible to understand is that you need to know source lore. Your chances of following all the jumping around without source knowledge are close to those of a snowball in the elemental plain of fire. And that is very bad thing for a novel (or series), especially since previous novels have little to nothing in terms of explaining what happened in between. I read the Elminster series without knowing anything about FR (particularly no ToT, and no 7 sisters and their parents knowledge), and to this day I get a lot of things confused and out of order, thanks almost exclusively to El in Hell (the rest weren't half bad).
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 06:33 PM	What makes it virtually impossible to understand is that you need to know source lore. Your chances of following all the jumping around without source knowledge are close to those of a snowball in the elemental plain of fire. Eh, most of it is implied. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that isn't pretty obvious. If you give some examples then that might help your contention. And that is very bad thing for a novel (or series), especially since previous novels have little to nothing in terms of explaining what happened in between. Yep. Most of what Elminster has done is undocumented. He's been alive for. . . what. . . 1,000 years? Maybe more, maybe less. I believe the intent was to show how El has developed at certain stages of his life. I think it was mostly successful in that. I read the Elminster series without knowing anything about FR (particularly no ToT, and no 7 sisters and their parents knowledge), and to this day I get a lot of things confused and out of order, thanks almost exclusively to El in Hell (the rest weren't half bad). Well. . . you could read the source books, download and check out the 2nd ed. stuff (it's free!). Anyhow, you were close on what your assumption was with the Seven Sisters, you just got the wrong time that the Goddess of Magic changed. The Seven Sisters were created by Mystra after Mystryl commited suicide and the "crazy farmgirl", as Markus put it, absorbed that divinity and assended as Mystra. I'm not clear on exactly when the Seven Sisters were born though, someone else knows that one. ;)
GothicDan 06-12-07, 06:40 PM	Faraer gave a good estimate. I can't remember dates for the worth of me, real life or fantasy. This past semester, when I took my Rome class, the only date that consistently stuck in my head was the kingship ending in 510 BCE. I still got like a 98 in the class. ;) Those dates cost me two whole points!
boards 06-12-07, 06:43 PM	If you read the Elminster series then you should know that Mystra sent El to look after 3 of the sisters, as it happened at the end of Temptation of Elminster. Given that he still looked relatively young at this point, it makes it hard to assume that they were born relatively recently. I did find Elminster in Hell before I knew anything about the setting so I found it very confusing at the time. There are references to so many people and it jumps around so much, that for the a reader who doesnt know realms lore, it is very hard to follow. It is most definately a book for a gamer, not a casual reader. In Temptation of Elminster it seems that the weave is not working properly for a couple of years, anyone know what happened here?
BrennonGoldeye 06-12-07, 10:06 PM	Yes that's what it is. I thought everyone with the Players and Setting guides (minimum, really) knew that, so I didn't have to explain, but OK. After Midnight ascended to full Mystra after ToT was over, she possessed a mortal woman and had 7 daughters on orders from Ao to lessen her personal power (since chosen require significant investment of divine energy). Simbul is one of those 7. So Simbul couldn't have been borne before ToT. What in all the names of Xiombarg is going on here. Have we stumbled into the campout being held in another thread. Somebody please give me a reason not to go LLKN here. Please please please. Ok, just 1 please. :smirk:
XHereticX 06-12-07, 10:09 PM	El in Hell is in fact the only novel of Ed's that I read, and I liked it quite a bit, and did not get any impression of the Simbul being born after the ToT. I see no reason to blame your minsinterpretation on him. That being said, the Simbul wasn't "born" to be the best Sorceress. WotC turned her into an iconic Sorcerer for the setting when they converted her into 3E. Before that, she was a 30th level Wizard. (And the highest level caster statted up to the 2E campaign setting, I think.) U liked that book? I coudn't really stand it. Apart from the Simbul killing 5 dukes of hell and mystra slaughtering nearly all the devils on avernus. It was really just a rogue archdevil that acts more like a demon torturing el and showing no class or self-restraint. worst elminster book ever, and i expected so much.
Krash 06-13-07, 12:15 AM	Rules will come and rules will go but the Simbul will always be. Stats be damned. -- George Krashos
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 07:32 AM	Well. . . you could read the source books, download and check out the 2nd ed. stuff (it's free!). The point is that people shouldn't have to do this for a stand alone novel. Especially for series of novels which have plenty of room (ToT take what, half a page to explain in the Players Guide, could've pasted it, not like WotC has to pay royalties to itself). What in all the names of Xiombarg is going on here. Have we stumbled into the campout being held in another thread. Somebody please give me a reason not to go LLKN here. Please please please. Ok, just 1 please. :smirk: Read my follow up. At the point you posted there should have been no confusion.
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 07:36 AM	Read my follow up. At the point you posted there should have been no confusion. Hmmm. Yes, I see. Let's just be somewhere in the general vicinity of the lore before we get all smarmy, shall we? ;)
NightBreeze 06-13-07, 08:00 AM	-Nothing ever implicitly stated that he died. Like a lot of other fantasy, there's no proof until you see the body. And, Elaine left a lot of subtle hints that point towards the fact that he is alive, the most convincing one being that Lolth, his patron at the time, never was able to claim his soul after the Sundering, when he "died". Muahahah ..... ha.... muah. What could he be doing nowdays? What could be of interest about him?
Karsus the Mad 06-13-07, 08:06 AM	After Midnight ascended to full Mystra after ToT was over, she possessed a mortal woman and had 7 daughters on orders from Ao to lessen her personal power (since chosen require significant investment of divine energy). Simbul is one of those 7. So Simbul couldn't have been borne before ToT. :confused: Midnight/Mystra never possessed a mortal woman and had 7 daughters. That was brain dead farm girl/ Mystra (otherwise known as the First Mystra), who ascended in -339 DR during (minutes after) the Fall of Netheril, when Mystryl's divine essence accidentally fell into said brain dead farm girl.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 08:07 AM	Hmmm. Yes, I see. Let's just be somewhere in the general vicinity of the lore before we get all smarmy, shall we? ;) Simbul is in the lore, that's a vicinity :cool: that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ... in general though, when people post replies without reading the thread fully, all those who have participated have every right to get smarmy ;) I mean after a mistake was pointed out and corrected do we really need new people coming in and restating it again (and apparently again^^)?
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 08:19 AM	I mean after a mistake was pointed out and corrected do we really need new people coming in and restating it again (and apparently again^^)? Sometimes we do, but we're special around here. :D Anyhow, I disagree that the third book in a forgotten realms series should be easy to understand without knowing some of the lore. If I had to read a recap of "Events leading to Elminster in Hell." then I would be quite annoyed. I do understand you're contention and for the most part I agree, one shouldn't have to know too much that isn't in the book for the book to make sense (though, again, I'm not 100% certain there is anything in the book that you can't garner some implications from, but novel discussion is a no no so we'll have to leave it at that :)), however, I do also want novels that get into the deeper political conflicts of the Realms and those novels would not really be able to give all the background for the main plot, or at least the sort of in depth book I would desire.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 08:45 AM	Sometimes we do, but we're special around here. Hey I saw a thread in the general D&D section that had a mistake that was pointed out again and again for 2 pages, then it got back on track, went on for another 3. Then, a year later (!), a new guy who clearly didn't read the whole thread posted the correction again, bumping the thread to the main page. The only way to correct such behavior is for everyone to immediately come down like a ton of bricks on every single person who does this. It's for the good of the community, people must learn to read each other's posts. This will also help address the cases like Asmodeus vs Demogorgon thread, where it was settled on the fist page, but went on for another 5 (on last count) with people having zero to add, simply saying things again and again, oblivious to the fact they are just repeating others. 5 pages of spinning wheels on the spot, we shouldn't enable such behaviour by letting it slide.
captaincarot 06-13-07, 09:24 AM	bah what's the point in reading what other people say it only gets in the way of stating tyour own opinion!:evillaugh
Karsus the Mad 06-13-07, 11:41 AM	Sometimes we do, but we're special around here. By repeating the obvious, one achieves the result of the person complaining about it to waste even more posts complaining about it, thus doing exactly what he complains about?;) Couldn't help myself. I saw an opening for personal amusement and took it. I'm whimsically selfish that way. Sorry Snarkbone:)
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 01:06 PM	See, special. :D
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 02:12 PM	Hey Snark, you want to see special? Post something as giggly as this again. Simbul, before ToT... and yet daughter of Midnight, the Mystra after ToT... right. Can you see the smarmy? Ask questions. Politely. If you promise, so will I. Otherwise, I'll need my gloves back from Shadez.:D The only way to correct such behavior is for everyone to immediately come down like a ton of bricks on every single person who does this. It's for the good of the community, people must learn to read each other's posts. This will also help address the cases like Asmodeus vs Demogorgon thread, where it was settled on the fist page, but went on for another 5 (on last count) with people having zero to add, simply saying things again and again, oblivious to the fact they are just repeating others. 5 pages of spinning wheels on the spot, we shouldn't enable such behaviour by letting it slide. Just to let you know this is the very definition of smarmy, especially from someone who thought the 600-odd-year-old sisters were born 30 years ago. The ton of bricks has a name.:D Here, there are a couple of burgers left from the Campout. You don't have a problem with regenerating meat do you? :)
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 03:27 PM	Hey Snark, you want to see special? Post something as giggly as this again. Can you see the smarmy? Ask questions. Politely. If you promise, so will I. Otherwise, I'll need my gloves back from Shadez.:D Just to let you know this is the very definition of smarmy, especially from someone who thought the 600-odd-year-old sisters were born 30 years ago. The ton of bricks has a name.:D Here, there are a couple of burgers left from the Campout. You don't have a problem with regenerating meat do you? :) Insulting and unimaginative rhetorics will not get you far. All you do is insult, more importantly with a derogative term that doesn't apply. I would've been a hypocrite if someone else corrected me, but people just went "I'm not sure, but I feel it's wrong" and I was the one who looked up the sources and made the correction. But even that isn't enough, hypocrisy would have been making a mistake, and then whine about mistakes of others. I have not done that in any way. My complain was about social behaviour, not FR lore. All you did for this thread is added needless and inappropriate insults. Then demanded respect and politeness from others. At least I had the sense to admit my mistake and look up the right answer, which no one, not even you, offered. And you call me hypocrite? Nice. Welcome to my ignore list.
GothicDan 06-13-07, 04:11 PM	Insulting and unimaginative rhetorics will not get you far. Sure it will! It made me like Brennon all the more.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 04:25 PM	Sure it will! It made me like Brennon all the more. You like insolent and unimaginative people? That's an interesting trait, I don't think I met someone like that before. I'll be less selective in my choice of words in the future when replying to your posts.
Alediran 06-13-07, 04:28 PM	You better get used to that, or get the facts right. People who are wrong respect FR's facts tend to smash against brick walls around here. Just follow the rule: for each word you write, you must read ten from others.
Faraer 06-13-07, 04:34 PM	If anyone is enjoying this, keep posting!
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 04:54 PM	If anyone is enjoying this, keep posting! Enjoying? No, definitely not. But this argument we degenerated into isn't the OP's point. I am still interested in the answer to the original question, so far Simbul is the oldest sorcerer mentioned (and she's been established to be older than I thought). All other characters mentioned are either non-sorcerers or not FR natives (planar beings could be interlopers, or otherwise of questionable origin, we don't know) I still want to know who the oldest/first Toril native sorcerer is.
Karsus the Mad 06-13-07, 05:05 PM	Do dragons count? Ondil of the Many Spells was a Thaeravelian survivor I believe. Thaeravel, as noted earlier, was famous for it's sorcerers. While never stated as far as I can remember, Ondil could easily have been a sorcerer in retrospect. It also makes thematical sense, given his nickname. It'd be impressive for a sorcerer, a joke for a wizard. Assuming he's still alive (his tower was abandoned, but does it ever state he died?) he'd be at least 4,500 years old. Of course, it all matters on whether or not I'm remembering things correctly.
Faraer 06-13-07, 05:44 PM	. . . I still want to know who the oldest/first Toril native sorcerer is.It's some elf or dragon or even human tens of thousands of years ago, long passed from memory. Tracking down the earliest named character specified as a "sorcerer" is more a trivia question.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 05:51 PM	Enjoying? No, definitely not. But this argument we degenerated into isn't the OP's point. I am still interested in the answer to the original question, so far Simbul is the oldest sorcerer mentioned (and she's been established to be older than I thought). All other characters mentioned are either non-sorcerers or not FR natives (planar beings could be interlopers, or otherwise of questionable origin, we don't know) I still want to know who the oldest/first Toril native sorcerer is. The problem is that since "Sorcerer" is a 3E class it really could be a legion of different characters that were stated out in 1E or 2E. It is most likely what Faraer said, someone LONG forgotten, likely of the creator races. There is NO lore that says "Since 3E started in X year sorcerers started popping up." It is actually "There have always been sorcerers, it's just that there was no sorcerer class before this time so they were never stated as sorcerers."
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 05:55 PM	It's some elf or dragon or even human tens of thousands of years ago, long passed from memory. Tracking down the earliest named character specified as a "sorcerer" is more a trivia question. old elves definitely don't count, they are elven high mages if anything, not the same as sorcerer. that dragon is interesting though. And the question is more than simple trivia. Since the greatest and most powerful spells are always from the times long gone, everyone always looking to rob a grave, dig up a ruin or something. New inventions are constantly in the shadow of the ancient lore. This makes oldest sorcerers prime sources for truly powerful secrets. True they share spells with wizards, but there can be unique feats and other things like further spells/day and/or spells/known expansion, etc.
Faraer 06-13-07, 06:13 PM	old elves definitely don't count, they are elven high mages if anything, not the same as sorcerer.I don't know why you think that, and I don't think you're well advised to throw "definitely"s around.And the question is more than simple trivia. Since the greatest and most powerful spells are always from the times long gone, everyone always looking to rob a grave, dig up a ruin or something. New inventions are constantly in the shadow of the ancient lore.That's not my point: what's trivia is not the earliest "sorcerer", or the earliest "sorcerer" known to present-day Faerūn, but the earliest established "sorcerer" who happens to have been mentioned in the published sources, which cover the past (from the perspective of a real world) extremely skimpily. I also suspect that the 3E terms "wizard" and "sorcerer" are simplifications of a more complex set of spectrums of magic use in the Realms.
Lord Karsus 06-13-07, 06:30 PM	Rules will come and rules will go but the Simbul will always be. Stats be damned. -- George Krashos -That's the spirit! Muahahah ..... ha.... muah. What could he be doing nowdays? What could be of interest about him? -Who knows? He's probably doing whatever interests a 25,000+ year old Lich. Otherwise, I'll need my gloves back from Shadez.:D: -Hmm...Being as that I have multiple hands, I should probably get more than one pair of gloves, huh? old elves definitely don't count, they are elven high mages if anything, not the same as sorcerer. that dragon is interesting though. -There are a lot more qualifications for being a Selu'Taar than just being an old Elf. There are, and were, plenty of Elves who posessed potent magical ability, were quite old, and were not High Magi.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 06:39 PM	I still say K'arnalist is pinned under a rock somewhere on the bottom of the ocean. Not that my opinion counts for anything, but I think that would be funny as hell. :D
Lord Karsus 06-13-07, 06:45 PM	-The guy was pretty cunning. I think that after some time (25,000 or so is definitley some time), he might have figured his way out of that little mess.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 06:47 PM	I know, I know... but just think about how annoyed he'd be after 25,000 years under a rock. :D Kinda like one of those genies that have been stuck in a bottle for thousands of years, and just want to tear someone a new A-hole when they get out.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:28 PM	Rules will come and rules will go but the Simbul will always be. Stats be damned. -- George Krashos Yes, I personally think they should have made her a demigoddess. This argument really boils down to this question, what do you really define as a sorcerer in the realms? Sometimes the terms wizard, sorcerer, and mage are synomymous.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 08:30 PM	Elven High Magic is different from others simply because it has a different section devoted to it, and it follows different rules of magic (p58 of FRCS). High magic is not a high level magic, it simply looks that way because only the powerful artifacts survived through the thousands of years. It's not a PrC or anything, it's a moral high ground view of magic that the elves hold (being the by and large supremacists that they are).
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 09:34 PM	Welcome to my ignore list. Ahh. Thank you. Now that he isn't listening I will once again post my answer that qualifies to the "human" part of the question. First reference I know of is Thaeravel, whose sorcerors were mind-raped(conquered and forcibly spell-sucked) by Therion's spawn(the Netherese). That would have been almost 4800yrs ago. :D
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 09:37 PM	Sure it will! It made me like Brennon all the more. ;) I love you too Dan. ;)
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:37 PM	Ahh. Thank you. Now that he isn't listening I will once again post my answer that qualifies to the "human" part of the question. First reference I know of is Thaeravel, whose sorcerors were mind-raped(conquered and forcibly spell-sucked) by Therion's spawn(the Netherese). That would have been almost 4800yrs ago. :D Brennon, you make me crack up.:D
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 09:39 PM	Brennon, you make me crack up.:D And just think, all I did for this thread is added needless and inappropriate insults. Well, that and answer the question. :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 09:41 PM	I like Brennon as well, but when I think of him and Dan I get the disturbing picture of Dr. Evil and Mini-me. :D
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:41 PM	And just think, all I did for this thread is added needless and inappropriate insults. Well, that and answer the question. :rolleyes: Sometimes insults in a polite way are necessary to bring down the high and mighty and give a little lightheartedness to a convo. If they can't take a little cajoling then its their problem. I always support my fellow hands in an argument over anyone outside;)
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 09:48 PM	I like Brennon as well, but when I think of him and Dan I get the disturbing picture of Dr. Evil and Mini-me. :D Well, I'm 6'3 so I call Dr. Evil.:tongue: I think I actually have a Big Bag of Shuush around here somewhere. :thinks:
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:54 PM	You better get used to that, or get the facts right. People who are wrong respect FR's facts tend to smash against brick walls around here. Just follow the rule: for each word you write, you must read ten from others. So true, that is why I left Candlekeep a long time ago, fanatics smashing me about my uneducated comments. Of course I didn't know crap about the Realms back then and am a little smarter with my posts now.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 09:56 PM	Sometimes insults in a polite way No such thing as an insult in a polite way. You are either polite or insolent. I am surprised this community is so welcoming to such people. To correct someone is one thing and it should be done, but not to correct someone (and I was only corrected after I corrected myself) and then call me a hypocrite... that is something I'd expect from a /. discussion thread. No wonder he posts under 2 nicks (I'll let you guess which one his other one is, I think you will be pleasantly surprised). Cheers :cool:
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:58 PM	No such thing as an insult in a polite way. You are either polite or insolent. I am surprised this community is so welcoming to such people. To correct someone is one thing and it should be done, but not to correct someone (and I was only corrected after I corrected myself) and then call me a hypocrite... that is something I'd expect from a /. discussion thread. No wonder he posts under 2 nicks (I'll let you guess which one his other one is, I think you will be pleasantly surprised). Cheers :cool: You? I can imagine Bren playing a double game like that.
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 10:04 PM	No such thing as an insult in a polite way. You are either polite or insolent. I am surprised this community is so welcoming to such people. To correct someone is one thing and it should be done, but not to correct someone (and I was only corrected after I corrected myself) and then call me a hypocrite... that is something I'd expect from a /. discussion thread. No wonder he posts under 2 nicks (I'll let you guess which one his other one is, I think you will be pleasantly surprised). Cheers :cool: I don't believed I ever used the word hypocrite. I used smarmy. Then I edited my post because it was a tad smarmy. I take the adjective "insolent" as a compliment, so no harm there. ;) And I have 3 nicks. I would be amused to see what he thinks my other nicks are.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 10:05 PM	Ok, lemme guess. The other 2 are LLKN(you seemed awefully close to him), and ShadeofDiz
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 10:10 PM	Ok, lemme guess. The other 2 are LLKN(you seemed awefully close to him), and ShadeofDiz :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well, I do still have a preserved piece of LLKN's scal..:shifty:...scallopini in my component cubbard. Thanks for the complement on the ShadezofDis. Not me though. :D
XHereticX 06-13-07, 10:14 PM	:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well, I do still have a preserved piece of LLKN's scal..:shifty:...scallopini in my component cubbard. Thanks for the complement on the ShadezofDis. Not me though. :D That dude never posts anymore. ok, spill the beans to me in a pm.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 10:55 PM	I hate it when people use multiple names. :mad: Its like they are trying to 'trick you' or something. I have just this one, and my original which had gotten 'lost' for awhile, but the only difference is the "63" part. I used to have four names at the last forum I rul... was a member of, but after awhile I realized how silly that was. Especially when I had entire conversations with myself. :rolleyes: Each represented what mood I was in while posting, and some times I switch between them in a thread. There was one I created that was actually my evil twin... thank god I gave all that up when I decided to be sane.
Gimric 06-14-07, 12:11 AM	Yes that's what it is. I thought everyone with the Players and Setting guides (minimum, really) knew that, so I didn't have to explain, but OK. After Midnight ascended to full Mystra after ToT was over, she possessed a mortal woman and had 7 daughters on orders from Ao to lessen her personal power (since chosen require significant investment of divine energy). Simbul is one of those 7. So Simbul couldn't have been borne before ToT. First Let me preface this by saying a couple of things: Sorry if this was said before and... Please do not take offense to the way this is written - I am kinda stilted in my writing... The Mystra who bore the Seven Sisters was NOT Midnight but Elue' Shundar (page 7, paragraph 2, "The Seven Sisters") This may have been an attempt to preserve the Weave on that Mystra's part in anticipation of her demise (page 6, paragraph 3, line 13, "The Seven Sisters".) Ok it has been said before repeatedly!!! As far as the OP's Question... I would say that any of the deities who dallied with the mortals on Faerun could be the source of sorcerers along with any of the other highly magical beings, including fae, dragons, etc... The Simbul and the other Sisters are definately more likely to have sorcerer levels or if not - to produce sorcerers themselves due to the nature of their conception and birth. Gim
captaincarot 06-14-07, 02:35 AM	[QUOTE=MarkusTay63;12715464]I know, I know... but just think about how annoyed he'd be after 25,000 years under a rock. :D QUOTE] he'd probably even start to consider being a politician after that length of time :P
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 04:10 AM	First Let me preface this by saying a couple of things: Hehehe. You just sky rocketed up to my list of people I like:D And I have 3 nicks. I would be amused to see what he thinks my other nicks are. :eek: Maybe you could inform me so I don't accidentally nuke you with a prototype epic spell. Each represented what mood I was in while posting, and some times I switch between them in a thread. There was one I created that was actually my evil twin... thank god I gave all that up when I decided to be sane. What fun is sanity tho'? Besides Markus, you don't need multiple user names to hold a conversation with yourself. I do it all the time. I even debate the finer points of FR with myself. Just ask LK.
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 09:44 AM	Ok, lemme guess. The other 2 are LLKN(you seemed awefully close to him), and ShadeofDiz :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well, I do still have a preserved piece of LLKN's scal..:shifty:...scallopini in my component cubbard. Thanks for the complement on the ShadezofDis. Not me though. :D Awwwww, first mistaken for a Bren alterego (which is complimentary IMO) and then Brens all sweet. See Snark, it's not all smarmyness around here, there's plenty o :love:
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 10:00 AM	Elven High Magic is different from others simply because it has a different section devoted to it, and it follows different rules of magic (p58 of FRCS). High magic is not a high level magic, it simply looks that way because only the powerful artifacts survived through the thousands of years. It's not a PrC or anything, it's a moral high ground view of magic that the elves hold (being the by and large supremacists that they are). Now, I hope you don't get offended by this but I'm not really that concerned. You need to learn more before saying anything like the above. Elven High Mage is a PrC, in Races of Faerun page 182. An Elven High Mage can be a sorcerer and then take levels in the PrC. So "old elves definitely don't count, they are elven high mages if anything, not the same as sorcerer" is absolutely false. Absolutely. Now, it's likely that there are sorcerers who are still kickin who are older than the oldest Elven High Mage and probably even older than the oldest Baelnorn (Elven lich). Like I've said several times now, the oldest sorcerer in FR is likely to be from one of the creator races. This character has never been documented and is probably never going to be documented. Further, the reason there are older enchantments that are much more powerful than their modern day equivalents has a lot to do with Mystra's Ban (IMO), rather than "Mages being better in the past" That's not a 100% opinion mind you, I could be wrong and can think of a couple of factors that would lead to me being wrong in my opinion of that, but I haven't read the lore so I don't actually know. And just in case no one has said it yet, the Simbul was born 766 DR.
MarkusTay63 06-14-07, 11:12 AM	Wouldn't this title go to the guy who recently tried to block out the sun with a tear of selune, or some such nonsense like that? I didn't read the novel, but it sounded like Elminster would have been an apprentice next to that guy, and if I have it right he was from Toril's DISTANT past.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 06:16 PM	Elven High Magic is different from others simply because it has a different section devoted to it, and it follows different rules of magic (p58 of FRCS). -Correct, to a degree. Elven High Magic is not mundane magic, as I call normal magic. Elven High Magic is discipline, a form, of Epic Magic that only Elves can utilize. High magic is not a high level magic, it simply looks that way because only the powerful artifacts survived through the thousands of years. -Here, you are utterly wrong. Elven High Magic is indeed high level magic- it's Epic Magic. In 2e, there were some Elven High Magic spells that were mundane (Elves of Evermeet), but the entire system of Elven High Magic was revamped in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves - meaning that the spells that were 'High Magic' in Elves of Evermeet were not High Magic, but were simply Elven specific. -And, just so you know, there are no artifacts that have been created via the use of Elven High Magic. The closest things there are to artifacts are the crystaline structures created with the Elaorman ritual, the promise stone of the Quamaniith ritual, and the various mundane magical items created with the lalyshae'Seldar'Wihylos ritual It's not a PrC or anything, it's a moral high ground view of magic that the elves hold (being the by and large supremacists that they are). -Incorrect, yet again. See Races of Faerūn, page 182-183. Elves of Faerūn also has a variant version. -Oh, and Selu'Taar are probably the least..."haughty" of all Elven Magi, as they truly and inherently understand and truly and inherently respect magic, even moreso than the average Elven mage. Well, I do still have a preserved piece of LLKN's scal..:shifty:...scallopini in my component cubbard. -So that's what that was. I knew it looked somewhat familiar.[/QUOTE] What fun is sanity tho'? Besides Markus, you don't need multiple user names to hold a conversation with yourself. I do it all the time. I even debate the finer points of FR with myself. Just ask LK. -It's true, it's true.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:22 PM	If you wanna learn more about Elven High Magic and its ways, consult GothicDan about it. He will give you more than enough information. I guess most people here take their realmslore pretty seriously, don't get blown away;) Talking/posting to yourself is fun!!!!
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 06:34 PM	If you wanna learn more about Elven High Magic and its ways, consult GothicDan about it. :waits: -WTF!? You want a pay cut, or something? Huh? ...
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:51 PM	:waits: -WTF!? You want a pay cut, or something? Huh? ... Um, no master, its just that I generally think GD is the recognized authority on elves around this place.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 07:10 PM	:mage:
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:20 PM	:hides:
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 07:10 AM	:rofl:
Boda 06-15-07, 09:00 AM	so who is it?
Alediran 06-15-07, 09:08 AM	As the Elven Hand of Karsus it's my solemn duty to aid him in your punishment. :mage:
XHereticX 06-15-07, 09:18 AM	As the Elven Hand of Karsus it's my solemn duty to aid him in your punishment. :mage: "yawn", whatever, "traps alediran in a pocket demiplane." goes back to hiding:hides:
Alediran 06-15-07, 09:27 AM	"yawn", whatever, "traps alediran in a pocket demiplane." goes back to hiding:hides: Puny spell, planar travell is something I do frecuently, most trips are to the Elemental Plane of Air, after all I'm Half-Elemental you know. I hope you like my Alediran's Reversed Storm Shield spell, it's designed to make you take electrical damage every time you move from your current position.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 10:31 AM	Puny spell, planar travell is something I do frecuently, most trips are to the Elemental Plane of Air, after all I'm Half-Elemental you know. I hope you like my Alediran's Reversed Storm Shield spell, it's designed to make you take electrical damage every time you move from your current position. Hey, hey, we're both hands here, there is no need to fight. Oh, I hope you like my maximized violated infinatly extended ultimate Hellfire torment spell. While your having fun in your demiplane you will get to experience the sensation of being tormented in Baator;)
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 10:45 AM	so who is it? Read my post above.
Alediran 06-15-07, 01:40 PM	Hey, hey, we're both hands here, there is no need to fight. Oh, I hope you like my maximized violated infinatly extended ultimate Hellfire torment spell. While your having fun in your demiplane you will get to experience the sensation of being tormented in Baator;) Fire does not hold any misteries for me either, just a simple spell of Energy Immunity and that's it.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 01:47 PM	Fire does not hold any misteries for me either, just a simple spell of Energy Immunity and that's it. He, he, he, you really know nothing about hellfire do you...:devil:
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 02:08 PM	So no one answered my question above, and instead we are all going to play "Guess who I am?" :uh-huh: What about that guy who just 'pulled-down' a tear of Selune? I would say thats some awesome level of power there.
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 02:18 PM	So no one answered my question above, and instead we are all going to play "Guess who I am?" :uh-huh: What about that guy who just 'pulled-down' a tear of Selune? I would say thats some awesome level of power there. ::shrugs:: Any clue where the details of that event would be found? And a level of power isn't really indicative of how old the particular magic user is. :)
XHereticX 06-15-07, 02:19 PM	Bah, everyone knows the first magic-user on Toril was some lizardman that walked out of his cave, clapped his hands together, and said, "Look, pretty colors!!!";)
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 02:44 PM	Bah, everyone knows the first magic-user on Toril was some lizardman that walked out of his cave, clapped his hands together, and said, "Look, pretty colors!!!";) Nah. It wasn't casting spells, it was simply experiencing the results of eating certain underdark mushrooms. Markus: The Sojourner is the chap you're talking about. No clue about anything other than him pulling a Tear of Selune out of orbit.
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 09:52 PM	:P :P :P (just incase Snarkbone is looking)
Lord Karsus 06-15-07, 11:50 PM	-For information on the Sojourner, see the Erevis Cale Trilogy.
GothicDan 06-15-07, 11:59 PM	I'd claim to be the oldest Sorcerer in the Realms, but paltry, lacksadaiscal tricks practiced by those with no merit beyond the blind serendipity of being born within an innate bloodline are hardly individuals who I judge as much beyond opportunists who have relied much of their lives on blind luck. Haughty Sun Elven High Magi? Impossible.
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 12:07 AM	-For those of you who don't speak that particular dialect of Elven, let me translate: Sorcerers are genefreaks.
The Simbul 06-16-07, 12:51 AM	Rather than quote and reply, I will just state/reiterate the following 1) Shar is the most ancient sorcerer in the Forgotten Realms. 2) Sorcerers existed before the Time of Troubles, and aside from the notion of Dragons being the first "sorcerers" in terms of innate ability, in terms of the actual class in all likelihood sorcerers would have existed long before wizards. 3) The Seven Sisters (6/7 of whom are all sorceresses of varying degrees of power) were all born over 600 years ago, and are the daughters of Dornal Silverhand (a human ranger of Neverwinter) and Elue Shundar (a half-elf sorceress and the Lady of the Gate--whom was possessed by Mystra1 during those seven years) 1By "Mystra" I am referring to the Goddess of Magic who existed between -339DR and 1358DR, succeeding Mystrl after the folly of Karsus and preceding Midnight before the Time of Troubles.
Suin Bahhar 06-16-07, 08:48 AM	I like Shar.
Bonzai 06-16-07, 05:12 PM	In 3.5, they seem to be implying that Sorcerers arise from the mingling of some sort of innately magical race. From what I've seen so far, they are Dragons, Fiends, Celestials, and Fey. In the realms, the first Sorcerers probably came about during the time of the thunder lizards. Probably from the pairings of divine minions and their followers, or perhaps bargains with fiendish creatures. Another possibility is the Fey since they are a creator race, and are one of the races that seem to create sorcerer bloodlines. I haven't heard much about them in the realms, and cannot say when they rose to prominance. But it is possible that they were the first of the creator races, but were so xeno phobic, that no one learned of them. The first recorded creator race were the Sarruk. They were the first to learn to forge iron, and began to dominate and enslave the more primitive races. As they were doing this, they discovered various types of magic being practiced by the humanoid tribes. Most likley these were shamans, druids, and early sorcerers. They studied these early forms of magic, and codified them into the Netherese Scrolls (they were called the skins of the world serpent then). It is very probable that the Sarruk were the very first wizards in the realms. When the Sarruk empire declined, the Amphibian creator race rose to prominance. They in turn declined after a long, drawn out war with the newley arrived giants. During this time, the Avian creator race started to flourish, and according to Candle Keep, they had arcanists like Netheril did. The arrival of the dragons ended both the Amphibian and Avian creator races reign. Dragons became the rulers of Faerun, and it was probably during this time that Draconic heritage Sorcerers started appearing for the first time. Some time after, the Elves arrived, and they more than likley already had Sorcerers among them. The Elves ended the Time of Dragons with the first Dragon Rage, and in turn became the dominate race, till after the Crown wars. By the time of Imaskar and Netheril, I imagine Sorcerers were wide spread through out the Realms. Though they were probably looked upon as being primitive by the standards of an Arcanist. Thats my take anyways.
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 08:56 PM	1) Shar is the most ancient sorcerer in the Forgotten Realms. -That is, if the "Sisters" mythos is true.
XHereticX 06-16-07, 09:17 PM	-That is, if the "Sisters" mythos is true. Bah, everyone knows that the world serpent myth is the true one. ;)
boards 06-17-07, 09:45 AM	3) The Seven Sisters (6/7 of whom are all sorceresses of varying degrees of power) were all born over 600 years ago, and are the daughters of Dornal Silverhand (a human ranger of Neverwinter) and Elue Shundar (a half-elf sorceress and the Lady of the Gate--whom was possessed by Mystra1 during those seven years). What does the "Lady of the Gate" part of Elue mean, is it just some random title or does it have specific meaning?
Shemeska the Marauder 06-17-07, 10:41 AM	I've got one that I don't think has been mentioned yet: Lady Mantis, the avoral guardinal spellcaster who showed up in the novel 'The Nether Scroll', and who seemed to be an agent of Duke Windheir of Elysium and who had some manner of bargain with Mystra regarding taking one of the Nether scrolls into what amounted to protective custody outside of Toril (presumably to Elysium). She isn't from Toril so you might not count her, but she was living on Toril at the time she appeared, and given her nature it's plausible that she predates Toril itself.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 11:34 AM	She could have been the being that pointed the Sakkuruh in the right direction while doing their magic research. Who knows, maybe the Nether Scrolls were originally created in the wheel ad given to the lizardmen, who made their own revisions to it. In all respects, the Nether Scrolls seem more like the origin for Toril's wizards rather than sorcerers due to the fact that you actually have to study and memorize it, most likely setting into effect Toril's wizardly practices.
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 06:00 PM	Bah, everyone knows that the world serpent myth is the true one. ;) -Exactly my point. -Being a Hand of Karsus, you are supposed to promote the idea that I created the world. Sure, the logic has some flaws, but that's not the important part.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 06:04 PM	Time travel is not so illogical in a world of magic like Toril. Hmm, you could even be a Kwadizt Haderach(from Dune), a superbeing that exists simultaneously in every time and place.
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 06:25 PM	-Notice how that starts with 'K'...Eh? Eh?
Passivearmada 06-18-07, 10:20 AM	Mmmmm, just seeing that book on my shelf makes my nipples hard, mmmmm. kinda creepy :yuck: ;)
BrennonGoldeye 06-18-07, 08:46 PM	kinda creepy :yuck: ;) Sometimes books are so good they are creepy. Best way I knew to put it.;)