who made the Nether Scrolls [Archive] - Wizards Community

who made the Nether Scrolls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
maddog0714
06-15-07, 09:16 AM Does anyone know who made the nether scrolls? I know they were discovered in the ruins of Aryvandaar in -3533 (Nether Age) Source: Lost empires of Faerun, but I can't find who created them... Any ideas?
Karsus the Mad
06-15-07, 02:58 PM Does anyone know who made the nether scrolls? I know they were discovered in the ruins of Aryvandaar in -3533 (Nether Age) Source: Lost empires of Faerun, but I can't find who created them... Any ideas?
The Creator Races. Primarily the Sarrukh. They started them, but after they fell, the work was carried on by two other Creator Races. Serpent Kingdoms goes into detail about the origins.
XHereticX
06-15-07, 03:15 PM The Creator Races. Primarily the Sarrukh. They started them, but after they fell, the work was carried on by two other Creator Races. Serpent Kingdoms goes into detail about the origins.

Hmm, I know this isn't canon, but do the Words of Power in NWN have anything to do with the Nether Scrolls? Maybe they were some secret project created together...

or...maybe put together they create some sort of code for the secret to creation itself...
Karsus the Mad
06-15-07, 03:33 PM I dunno. That might be stretching it a bit tho'. As SK mentions, the Nether Scrolls were actually just the Sarrukh (and the other two to follow) recording of the magic tradtions of the "primitive" people of Toril. From what I gather, the lizard dudes discovered that those hairy cave dwellers and other foodstuff had a knack for magic the cold bloods hadn't concieved of before.
Snarkbone
06-15-07, 05:15 PM I dunno. That might be stretching it a bit tho'. As SK mentions, the Nether Scrolls were actually just the Sarrukh (and the other two to follow) recording of the magic tradtions of the "primitive" people of Toril. From what I gather, the lizard dudes discovered that those hairy cave dwellers and other foodstuff had a knack for magic the cold bloods hadn't concieved of before.
I don't think lizard folk were doing it that way, at least FAQ at Candlekeep implies different (http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090573). The lizards wrote the scrolls by themselves, then elves learned about them (but didn't put to rampant use), humans found out about the scrolls from elves (and abused the knowledge). And considering Candlekeep is where Ed and other designers and writers mostly live, I think that's a pretty solid source for the matter.

On the other hand, the really old Netheril:Empire of Magic says that it is unknown who created them and presents 3 theories:
1) Creator Races made them as gift to humans (for unknown reason)
2) Mystryl the goddess of magic at the time
3) unworldly origin, either from outer planes or crystal sphere beyond Realmspace.

The only thing this source says for sure is that Elves didn't pen the Scrolls. Elves brought their own brand of magic with them when they came to Toril, and their perception of magic remained completely unaffected by their discovery of the Scrolls later on.
Karsus the Mad
06-15-07, 05:43 PM I don't think lizard folk were doing it that way, at least FAQ at Candlekeep implies different (http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090573). The lizards wrote the scrolls by themselves, then elves learned about them (but didn't put to rampant use), humans found out about the scrolls from elves (and abused the knowledge). And considering Candlekeep is where Ed and other designers and writers mostly live, I think that's a pretty solid source for the matter.

On the other hand, the really old Netheril:Empire of Magic says that it is unknown who created them and presents 3 theories:
1) Creator Races made them as gift to humans (for unknown reason)
2) Mystryl the goddess of magic at the time
3) unworldly origin, either from outer planes or crystal sphere beyond Realmspace.
:teach:
Page 55 of Serpent Kingdoms states pretty much exactly what I said. "As the Sarrukh spread out they discovered that the shamans of the chaotic races living in certain wilderness areas held magical lore they had not yet encountered. After studying these primitive forms of magic the Sarrukh consolidated their discoveries into a series of tomes." Continuing along that page you discover those tomes were the foundations of The Golden Skins of the World Serpent, otherwise known as the Nether Scrolls, as penned by the Baetith (a secret society that finished the works started by the Sarrukh). The sidebar at the bottom of the same page lists the three Creator Races that created the Nether Scrolls. The Sarrukh, the Batrachi, and the Aearee.

Funnily enough, it was 3e (LEoF I think?) that first mentions the scrolls being found in Aryvandaar ruins. How that was deduced from the description of the location in NEoM, I have no idea.
Snarkbone
06-15-07, 06:55 PM Heh, I was wondering what SK stood for :) don't have that source.

Anyway, to me it is saying that primitive shamans had spells that overshadow all mages to this day? Seems odd.

Honestly, when WotC writes something explicitly its even more confusing than when they leave it to imagination.
The Ubbergeek
06-15-07, 10:12 PM well, myths and tales are often contradictory, illogical, confusing, so... ;)
BrennonGoldeye
06-15-07, 10:25 PM :shifty:---What Snark doesn't get is it said nothing about overshadowing anything. It said after studying multiple forms of magic they consolidated their studies. Thats called reference. It's a neat thing. Nobody tell him about it though, I'm enjoying this too much---:shifty:

You can tell him SK stands for Serpent Kingdoms though..
Snarkbone
06-16-07, 08:16 AM Things always get clearer in the morning :)

I've just read the 2 posts of Karsus again, and I think I've cleared up the confusion I had.

His first post seemed to say that Creator Races studied the primitive people and wrote down what those knew. And what confused me is that I read his second post as part of that line of thinking. Now that I re-read this thread, what the quote form SK says is that Sarrukh noticed that other races had a different take on magic, they studied that magic (not the other people), and wrote down the spells/discoveries that Sarrukh arrived at, not what the primitive shamans knew.

I think this is how it is, unless someone wants to correct that and make it confusing again :D
Karsus the Mad
06-16-07, 09:53 AM Things always get clearer in the morning :)

I've just read the 2 posts of Karsus again, and I think I've cleared up the confusion I had.

His first post seemed to say that Creator Races studied the primitive people and wrote down what those knew. And what confused me is that I read his second post as part of that line of thinking. Now that I re-read this thread, what the quote form SK says is that Sarrukh noticed that other races had a different take on magic, they studied that magic (not the other people), and wrote down the spells/discoveries that Sarrukh arrived at, not what the primitive shamans knew.

I think this is how it is, unless someone wants to correct that and make it confusing again :D
Sounds about right. The Nether Scrolls were the consolidated and extrapolated knowledge that the Sarrukh (and the others I mentioned) gathered from the primitive people of Toril. Note keyword: extrapolated.
Lord Karsus
06-17-07, 07:13 PM -Who created the Nether Scrolls?

-Your Momma...:P
XHereticX
06-17-07, 07:54 PM God said let there be light, then some lizardman came out and wrote about how he did it.

That is the story of the Nether Scrolls
BrennonGoldeye
06-18-07, 07:08 AM -Who created the Nether Scrolls?

-Your Momma...:P

Shh, don't tell anybody! She's a bit cranky about that subject.;)
Lord Karsus
06-18-07, 08:02 AM -I won't, don't worry. That's why I put it in SBLOCKs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 06-15-07, 09:16 AM	Does anyone know who made the nether scrolls? I know they were discovered in the ruins of Aryvandaar in -3533 (Nether Age) Source: Lost empires of Faerun, but I can't find who created them... Any ideas?
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 02:58 PM	Does anyone know who made the nether scrolls? I know they were discovered in the ruins of Aryvandaar in -3533 (Nether Age) Source: Lost empires of Faerun, but I can't find who created them... Any ideas? The Creator Races. Primarily the Sarrukh. They started them, but after they fell, the work was carried on by two other Creator Races. Serpent Kingdoms goes into detail about the origins.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 03:15 PM	The Creator Races. Primarily the Sarrukh. They started them, but after they fell, the work was carried on by two other Creator Races. Serpent Kingdoms goes into detail about the origins. Hmm, I know this isn't canon, but do the Words of Power in NWN have anything to do with the Nether Scrolls? Maybe they were some secret project created together... or...maybe put together they create some sort of code for the secret to creation itself...
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 03:33 PM	I dunno. That might be stretching it a bit tho'. As SK mentions, the Nether Scrolls were actually just the Sarrukh (and the other two to follow) recording of the magic tradtions of the "primitive" people of Toril. From what I gather, the lizard dudes discovered that those hairy cave dwellers and other foodstuff had a knack for magic the cold bloods hadn't concieved of before.
Snarkbone 06-15-07, 05:15 PM	I dunno. That might be stretching it a bit tho'. As SK mentions, the Nether Scrolls were actually just the Sarrukh (and the other two to follow) recording of the magic tradtions of the "primitive" people of Toril. From what I gather, the lizard dudes discovered that those hairy cave dwellers and other foodstuff had a knack for magic the cold bloods hadn't concieved of before. I don't think lizard folk were doing it that way, at least FAQ at Candlekeep implies different (http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090573). The lizards wrote the scrolls by themselves, then elves learned about them (but didn't put to rampant use), humans found out about the scrolls from elves (and abused the knowledge). And considering Candlekeep is where Ed and other designers and writers mostly live, I think that's a pretty solid source for the matter. On the other hand, the really old Netheril:Empire of Magic says that it is unknown who created them and presents 3 theories: 1) Creator Races made them as gift to humans (for unknown reason) 2) Mystryl the goddess of magic at the time 3) unworldly origin, either from outer planes or crystal sphere beyond Realmspace. The only thing this source says for sure is that Elves didn't pen the Scrolls. Elves brought their own brand of magic with them when they came to Toril, and their perception of magic remained completely unaffected by their discovery of the Scrolls later on.
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 05:43 PM	I don't think lizard folk were doing it that way, at least FAQ at Candlekeep implies different (http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090573). The lizards wrote the scrolls by themselves, then elves learned about them (but didn't put to rampant use), humans found out about the scrolls from elves (and abused the knowledge). And considering Candlekeep is where Ed and other designers and writers mostly live, I think that's a pretty solid source for the matter. On the other hand, the really old Netheril:Empire of Magic says that it is unknown who created them and presents 3 theories: 1) Creator Races made them as gift to humans (for unknown reason) 2) Mystryl the goddess of magic at the time 3) unworldly origin, either from outer planes or crystal sphere beyond Realmspace. :teach: Page 55 of Serpent Kingdoms states pretty much exactly what I said. "As the Sarrukh spread out they discovered that the shamans of the chaotic races living in certain wilderness areas held magical lore they had not yet encountered. After studying these primitive forms of magic the Sarrukh consolidated their discoveries into a series of tomes." Continuing along that page you discover those tomes were the foundations of The Golden Skins of the World Serpent, otherwise known as the Nether Scrolls, as penned by the Baetith (a secret society that finished the works started by the Sarrukh). The sidebar at the bottom of the same page lists the three Creator Races that created the Nether Scrolls. The Sarrukh, the Batrachi, and the Aearee. Funnily enough, it was 3e (LEoF I think?) that first mentions the scrolls being found in Aryvandaar ruins. How that was deduced from the description of the location in NEoM, I have no idea.
Snarkbone 06-15-07, 06:55 PM	Heh, I was wondering what SK stood for :) don't have that source. Anyway, to me it is saying that primitive shamans had spells that overshadow all mages to this day? Seems odd. Honestly, when WotC writes something explicitly its even more confusing than when they leave it to imagination.
The Ubbergeek 06-15-07, 10:12 PM	well, myths and tales are often contradictory, illogical, confusing, so... ;)
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 10:25 PM	:shifty:---What Snark doesn't get is it said nothing about overshadowing anything. It said after studying multiple forms of magic they consolidated their studies. Thats called reference. It's a neat thing. Nobody tell him about it though, I'm enjoying this too much---:shifty: You can tell him SK stands for Serpent Kingdoms though..
Snarkbone 06-16-07, 08:16 AM	Things always get clearer in the morning :) I've just read the 2 posts of Karsus again, and I think I've cleared up the confusion I had. His first post seemed to say that Creator Races studied the primitive people and wrote down what those knew. And what confused me is that I read his second post as part of that line of thinking. Now that I re-read this thread, what the quote form SK says is that Sarrukh noticed that other races had a different take on magic, they studied that magic (not the other people), and wrote down the spells/discoveries that Sarrukh arrived at, not what the primitive shamans knew. I think this is how it is, unless someone wants to correct that and make it confusing again :D
Karsus the Mad 06-16-07, 09:53 AM	Things always get clearer in the morning :) I've just read the 2 posts of Karsus again, and I think I've cleared up the confusion I had. His first post seemed to say that Creator Races studied the primitive people and wrote down what those knew. And what confused me is that I read his second post as part of that line of thinking. Now that I re-read this thread, what the quote form SK says is that Sarrukh noticed that other races had a different take on magic, they studied that magic (not the other people), and wrote down the spells/discoveries that Sarrukh arrived at, not what the primitive shamans knew. I think this is how it is, unless someone wants to correct that and make it confusing again :D Sounds about right. The Nether Scrolls were the consolidated and extrapolated knowledge that the Sarrukh (and the others I mentioned) gathered from the primitive people of Toril. Note keyword: extrapolated.
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 07:13 PM	-Who created the Nether Scrolls? -Your Momma...:P
XHereticX 06-17-07, 07:54 PM	God said let there be light, then some lizardman came out and wrote about how he did it. That is the story of the Nether Scrolls
BrennonGoldeye 06-18-07, 07:08 AM	-Who created the Nether Scrolls? -Your Momma...:P Shh, don't tell anybody! She's a bit cranky about that subject.;)
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 08:02 AM	-I won't, don't worry. That's why I put it in SBLOCKs.