Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DoveArrow 01-26-08, 09:09 PM	Let me know. Thanks.
Alleran 01-26-08, 10:16 PM	She wanted to become the leader of the pantheon, but Corellon already had that job. So Lolth needed to remove him.
Kenzuki 01-26-08, 10:21 PM	Isn't that just like a woman?
Shiftkitty 01-26-08, 10:59 PM	Some say treason for higher power, others say that they was a socio-political difference. Yet other legends say it was a vicious love-triangle. The stories are many and seem to change from sourcebook to sourcebook. The one I stand by for my game is that she was a demon. She needed no other reason to despise what Corellon had created. There was peace, there was love, there was joy, and no demon would let that situation go unchecked. She turned the dark elves against Corellon by turning them against the other elves. Nothing breaks a parent's heart more than to see their children trying to kill each other. It was the best way she had to destroy what he had created and to put him in agony. So he kicked her butt. Determined to get her revenge, she misled the drow with her own tale about whichever of several legends you want, intending that the game wasn't over until she won. Over the eons, the drow were fed on her propaganda until they generated their own tales of the evils of the surface bastards and thus the hate was perpetuated. With the drow believeing she was a deity, she managed to snag some divine ranks of her own to make it a reality. Meanwhile, she's hedged her bets with some other races, misleading them in similar ways, with one or two poised to strike at the drow should the need arise (in my game it has).
Gray Richardson 01-26-08, 11:50 PM	I think she had come to see Corellon as weak. She doesn't respect weakness at all. She despises weakness. She felt she she could rule the pantheon better, and her personal ethos demanded that she take action to seize power. Her most fundamental philosophy is survival of the fittest. I think she may have loved him at first. Admired him intensely even, as the pinnacle of elven ideals. I think she took great pride as a young goddess, wooing him, winning him, having Corellon choose her as a bride above all others. But as time passed, she could no longer bear to be seen as inferior or subservient to Corellon in any way. Nor could she even abide to rule the Seldarine as his equal, at his side. She does not accept anyone as an equal. Araushnee had come to to view the world as a natural pecking order, as a food chain that could only have one big kahuna at the top, and she wanted to be on the top. She made her play, and she failed. She was not as prepared as she had thought. But she learned her lesson and instills it perpetually in her followers: Do whatever you must to survive and rise to the top. Life is a continuous struggle for dominance. Failure brings debasement or even death. Winning means you live and thrive... until someone else can pull you down and take your place.
Kiioro 01-27-08, 12:18 AM	Because they fought over who would wear the prettiest dress to their wedding and Corellon's crinkled organza fabric with metallic sheen got it a bit out of hand...
GoldDragon 01-27-08, 01:04 AM	Let me know. Thanks. She's the original Psycho feminist supremacist...nuff said
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 01:12 AM	She felt he was being 'condescending'. When he asked her "Why? I have given you everything...", she replied "EXACTLY, you would have given... true power is seized!' She didn't like that she was only allowed that which Corellon 'bestowed' upon her.
Zanan 01-27-08, 04:54 AM	Well, from hindsight, she proved to be the "better" leader. From being a lesser deity, she looked for more power, was held back by Mr. All-mighty, demoted into being a tanar'ri for a while, regained her divinity pretty soon, conquered her realm in the Abyss, climbed the ladder amongst the deities and finally assumed the rank of Greater Deity by getting her own Realm in the FR cosmology, the Demonweb Pits. While Mr. All-mighty is still hunting in the woods of Arvandor ... or whatever he does these days. Methinks a few bits and pieces can be found in Cormanthyr, which is a free download on the main site.
Zsych 01-27-08, 10:36 AM	I think she's still far from Corellon's power. The basic difference is perhaps that for all her pride, self-consciousness, and hard work to change her situation, she's basically just not naturally awesome. Corellon was just naturally whole levels more powerful than she'd ever be. Like an average runner who trains hard but just can't manage to achieve the level an olympics class runner had to begin with :P
Shiftkitty 01-27-08, 01:19 PM	Looking at Gray Richardson's answer, I'm reminded of an old article that compared Lolth as Corellon's first mate to the old Christian legends of Lilith, Adam's first mate. She refused to be subservient to Adam, and thus she was tossed aside in favor of Eve, who was far more docile and submissive. One legend about Araushnee that I read was that after the elven nations had settled in and began to lead the idyllic lives they are commonly associated with, she insisted that at least some part of them must remain in a state of military preparedness to fend off any would-be attackers. Just because they had extracted themselves from underneath the "creator races" didn't mean that they could relax. There were other races who did not like the elves and envied what they had. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance," as it were. Corellon refused to allow her to keep her people, the dark elves, trained and threatened to erase them as a race if she did. The other elven deities supported him, so she trained them in private. When he discovered this, the deities rallied their people against Araushnee and her people and (I guess to prove their dedication to peace, love, and trail mix) declared war, determined to hunt the dark eleves and their goddess to extinction. Her people were better prepared for war, but they were outnumbered by a long shot. A war of attrition was one she could not win, so she led her people to relative safety underground, where they were sealed up and left to die. Her own anger and desire for revenge twisted her so badly that anger and revenge became her peoples' sole purpose for living. Even the setting against males reflects Christian legends. Women were considered mentally inferior and in need of subjugation because of Eve's weakness. All women were supposed to be patterened off of Eve, therefore, all women were weak and inferior and needed men to rule them. Likewise, a male deity proved fickle and contradictory (dead set against preparing for war and preaching peace but waging a war of annihilation against a nation of elves who were not threatening him, weak for not being willing to maintain a defense against readily apparent enemies (orcs, goblinoids, humans, etc.), therefore all males were assumed to be patterened off of Corellon and needed to be controlled. Hatred is easier to perpetuate than love and forgiveness, and so it flourished among the wronged dark elves, who had no other input to prove any of the propaganda that they were being fed false. Hatred also feeds on itself and this is reflected in the drow societies feeding on themselves in the sea of chaos that makes up their customs. Only the faintest trace of the proud elven nation that they once were remains to keep them from self-destructing entirely. That's my :twocents: .
gomeztoo 01-27-08, 02:49 PM	I like Grays answer, as it helps to explain why she doesn't actually LET her people win the war (instead incraesing strife among themselves, and occasionally working against those that would bring the drow back to the surface) - she does not wishes them to succeed, at least not as long as she hasn't. Shiftkitty's story sounds nice but is in disagreement with the GHotR, where Lolth was already cast down before she started to coax the dark elves in worshipping her.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:35 PM	She was always their patron, as per E:IoE, and that was 'granted' her, along with everything else, by Corellon. If you read that novel, you can see how she went from merely be their patron, to becoming their goddesss. Unfortunetly, some of FR's lore conflicts with core lore, but thats always the way of things. After all, if Toril is the homeworld of the Fey race, and the Fey created the Elves, that makes Toril THE most important world in D&D cosmology. Especially considering that the collapse of the Weave re-aligned the entire cosmos, not just Realmspace. ;) I like to think of Toril as the 'Garden of Eden' of the D&D universe - it is where all life begins, and travels forth and multiplies, eventually to find its way home, and come full-circle. Like the Elves did... :)
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 04:58 PM	I prefer not to make Araunshnee a parable about Lilith because that's too close to making her a post-modern sympathetic being. Instead, Lolth should be treated as anti-feminist in her own way. A smoldering set of neuroses and weaknesses that contrast sharply against the Elven Goddesses who are all stronger in their own way. Somehow, I just like the idea that Lolth couldn't stand that everyone was just happy just lying around Arvandor without terribly much ambition or desire to do anything but have fun.
Shiftkitty 01-27-08, 07:00 PM	Shiftkitty's story sounds nice but is in disagreement with the GHotR, where Lolth was already cast down before she started to coax the dark elves in worshipping her. I don't have GHotR. I was basing my bit off of some older articles. Given all the tweaking around that they're doing, rewriting history as it were, I picked the stuff that fits best into my world. (One of my own players argued that if WotC isn't going to pay attention to their own canon, why should we? :) ) For the sake of the reality of my world, Lolth is evil for evil's sake. She doesn't like others being happy, even if they're happy about the same things she might be happy about.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 07:48 PM	...if WotC isn't going to pay attention to their own canon, why should we? Indeed. :clap:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-27-08, 07:54 PM	Indeed!
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 07:57 PM	Actually Lilith comes from Jewish Mythology and was only later adopted by some sects of Ancient Christianity. And I'de like to note that neither Ancient Judaism nor Christianity was as bad to the fairer sex as you made it appear. There were several women who had authoritive roles such as Deborah who was not only a Prophetess but the Judge over all of Israel. But you are right now that I think about it. The Corellon/Araushnee tale IS striking familiar to the Adam/Lilith story. Hell, Corellon got Sehanine to be his consort after Lolth did her stunt right? So this is how it is then if we look at it like that. Corellon - Adam Araushnee/Lolth - Lilith Sehanine - Eve And Lilith DID become like the first Vampire or something and was considering to be the mother of demons. Sll in all it's a very interesting comparasion.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 08:13 PM	Lilith isn't actually part of mainstream Jewish Mythology, just as a note. I had an Orthodox Rabbi friend of mine pretty much get royally :censored: off when people asked about it since he always felt that she was a heresy that diminished the role of Eve as the first woman while also turning the Fall of Man into a sexist parable instead of one about Obedience To God. He wasn't always right about some things (He insisted she was unrelated to the Summerian Goddess) but I always was interested in it. But it'd be interesting to ask Elaine Cunningham over in her thread in Candlekeep whether she had the Myth of Lilith in mind when she was creating the origin of Lolth in Evermeet.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 08:19 PM	Aye I knew it wasn't part of mainstream Ancient Jewish thought, as the Torah has no mention of her at all. I always found the notion of Lilith interesting though I never believed it to be true personally. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this interpretation of Lolth did come from Lilith. And their names both start with an L!
Zanan 01-28-08, 04:04 AM	Instead, Lolth should be treated as anti-feminist in her own way. A smoldering set of neuroses and weaknesses that contrast sharply against the Elven Goddesses who are all stronger in their own way. Anti-feminist? Set of neuroses and weaknesses? Dear me, where can I get the stuff you had before writing this? :D
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 06:16 AM	Anti-feminist? Set of neuroses and weaknesses? Dear me, where can I get the stuff you had before writing this? :D Let's see... * Lolth uses sex to get what she wants rather than merit. * Lolth uses men (Gruumsh/Malar) to attack Corellon. * Lolth insists on being oppressed despite the very clear aspect this is all a product of her mind. * Lolth's chief enemy is a set of three females (obvious Mother Goddess parallels) who banish her rather than the man. * Lolth is very much the stereotype of the misandrist :censored: for no other reason than because. Yes, I'd say she's an Anti-Feminist character and a pile of Neuroses.
GoldDragon 01-28-08, 07:58 AM	After all, if Toril is the homeworld of the Fey race, and the Fey created the Elves, that makes Toril THE most important world in D&D cosmology. :) For Fey based Elves anyway....and those Lizard things that live in the Great desert that are decendants of the toad faced "creator Race" True Halflings are from Athas Realm(Dark Sun), True Humans are from Earth Realm, and True Dragons are from Dragonlands Realm,blah,blah blah yadda,yadda yadda. But then again the goddlings and their Overlords and other "powers that be" did that "Great Migration thing" were living beings and creatures were traded, stolen, or their own varient created as well as the sentinent races own ability to explore and migrate through the palnes of existance and "evolve" naturally and through Magic,etc. Favorite one is the "Life Masters" of Athas (being "halfling") manipulating their genetics in the bulk of their community to adopt to the "Green Age" via turning themselves into Humans, Dwarves,Giants,etc to help fill geographical niches. Next one is same thing in a "Future Earth" setting where Humans bioengineer themselves into Space dwelling Astroid Mining Dwarfs, Space Ship piloting and Star base maintenence Halflings, Tera-forming pinoneering elves and Techo Engineer inclined Gnomes (Think it was called Camelot 30000AD?) And of course the Dragonlands where clearly everything was a succesion of copy cat creations where the 5 Elemental gods made elves from wood but they were too aloof, Dwarves from Stone but they were too stolic, and Humans from the Earth but they were "too much like the gods" and "perfection" was when they took a 6 legged lizzard and added a pinky from each of their being to create Dragons (Of course Dragons tell the Legend and in truth it is 99% likely another "shake and Bake" Realm with a lot of the "Great Migration" Gates (Crystal Gates) not only still visible but still operational until the current war making it a guarded resource and means of power (With the whole aother world tech,magic,and herbology giving the keepers of the gate power....like with that "dragonsbane" herb or even being technically able to go to Krynn and bring back a Dragonlance)
Zanan 01-28-08, 10:02 AM	Let's see... * Lolth uses sex to get what she wants rather than merit. Hearsay. I doubt that she conquered her realms in the Abyss be sleeping every demon out of her way or seducing hundreds of big guns demons ... if you think otherwise, please provide proof. * Lolth uses men (Gruumsh/Malar) to attack Corellon. Ahem, you mean it would have been cunning and clever and very woman-like to go against him herself, being a lesser deity as opposed Mr. Big Gun Mega-Elf? (BTW, what she did was a very feminine way of solving problems.) * Lolth insists on being oppressed despite the very clear aspect this is all a product of her mind. Where does that notion come from? That is the statement that she insists on being oppressed? * Lolth's chief enemy is a set of three females (obvious Mother Goddess parallels) who banish her rather than the man. What? I mean I know whom you refer too and all, but if someone gets one over you (which was effectively Corellon, not the threesome, who only thwarted the plot) you are not strictly against everything female - which your initial post implies? She calls and views herself as the Dark Mother of all Drow and promotes everything female within their society, so again, what's the point you are trying to make? Her hatred against the Threesome suddenly extends to everything female? Or did I lose you somehwere? * Lolth is very much the stereotype of the misandrist :censored: for no other reason than because. Cannot follow that point of thought either, as I fail to see any (FR related) substance to it and would like to inquire about certain amount of proof as well. Yes, I'd say she's an Anti-Feminist character and a pile of Neuroses. IMHO ... and that is of course just that, MHO ... utter conjecture on your part, built upon assumptions taken from less than a handful of events of the Dark Mother's 30,000 year FR history.
Alediran 01-28-08, 12:06 PM	I only have to say one thing. If drow are superior to other elven races how comes every evil drow Alediran met in his life is a pile of dust? :rofl:
Khaelieth 01-28-08, 12:27 PM	Lloth also used Auril, who's female. And feminism is a highly debatable concept; use your gifts as a woman to gain power or not and remain low (Not saying they can't succeed without!)?
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 12:42 PM	I guess for me, Lolth as the figure of a stereotype of femme fatale and enemy of healthy relationships between the sexes works for me. There's something wrong with the wiring up there and she's really kinda pathetic when you think about it.
Shiftkitty 01-28-08, 01:10 PM	Kenzuki I should have made myself clearer. I was aware at the time of writing that the early Christians were far more egalitarian than their later counterparts. Unfortunately, I was on limited time. I had read an essay that claimed Peter and Paul were misogynists, and it's because of their inclusion into the "approved" gospel to the exclusion of other, lesser known books that, after the church got organized, women ended up with the short end of the stick and the whole thing got twisted into a patriarchal system. Sadly, I no longer have that document.:( Too bad. It was pretty lengthy and well-researched, IMO.
Bonzai 01-28-08, 01:47 PM	She warned him.... She told him, "Corry honey, if you leave the seat up ONE MORE TIME, so help me.....".
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 02:22 PM	Kenzuki I should have made myself clearer. I was aware at the time of writing that the early Christians were far more egalitarian than their later counterparts. Unfortunately, I was on limited time. I had read an essay that claimed Peter and Paul were misogynists, and it's because of their inclusion into the "approved" gospel to the exclusion of other, lesser known books that, after the church got organized, women ended up with the short end of the stick and the whole thing got twisted into a patriarchal system. Sadly, I no longer have that document.:( Too bad. It was pretty lengthy and well-researched, IMO. Peter and Paul were far from misogynists. I'm tired of this bullcrap people write when they go around cherry picking verses and ignoring all the rest.
Zanan 01-28-08, 05:50 PM	I only have to say one thing. If drow are superior to other elven races how comes every evil drow Alediran met in his life is a pile of dust? :rofl: How about asking your DM about it?
Shiftkitty 01-28-08, 09:23 PM	Kenzuki It may not have been Peter and Paul, then. For some reason, their names stick when I try to recall the essay. I know it named two gospel authors. Meh, whatever. I know that later generations twisted chapter and verse into a justification for the suppression of women's rights, even if it didn't always carry out in practical usage. Cultural practices from non-Christian societies also had their share of such things, oftimes to a greater extent. But back to the Lolth vs. Corellon discussion, I sometimes wonder, when they designed Lolth, was someone going through a divorce, you think? I've seen male friends taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous exes. Sometimes it seemed as if sacrificing him to a demon/goddess would have been more merciful...:)
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 09:28 PM	To be fair, Gary Gygax designed the Dark Elves as worshiping the Elder Elemental Evil rather than a Spider Queen. Honestly, I tend to wonder if it all didn't just build on itself.
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 09:46 PM	Soooooo who came up with Lolth then? Hrmmmm try imagening what it would be if the Drow never had Lolth but had Tharizdun...
Zanan 01-29-08, 04:51 AM	Well, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, by Sutherland and Gygax, published in 1980, already had Lolth in there.
Alediran 01-29-08, 06:33 AM	How about asking your DM about it? I'm the DM. It's just simple, every drow we cross paths can't deal with our incredibly oiled team. Most of the time they don't even land a blow. And it's not a problem with the same strategy, I constantly change them (argentinian I know, it's harder to keep a pattern than to make one new for us.) but they are as good as me as adapting to the enviroment. Last session they effortlesly defeated three times their number, including Wizards and clerics, (not counting their luck, it's hardly surprising to see at least 3 confirmed criticals from our side and many failed attacks from them. Lady luck must favor them.) and of the appropiate CR. I suppose my players have the advantage of being surface elves, the drow always are a little more reckless when trying to kill surface elves (or Kiaransalee brainwashed their minds and they don't care to die).
Kenzuki 01-29-08, 08:22 AM	I'm the DM. It's just simple, every drow we cross paths can't deal with our incredibly oiled team. Most of the time they don't even land a blow. And it's not a problem with the same strategy, I constantly change them (argentinian I know, it's harder to keep a pattern than to make one new for us.) but they are as good as me as adapting to the enviroment. Last session they effortlesly defeated three times their number, including Wizards and clerics, (not counting their luck, it's hardly surprising to see at least 3 confirmed criticals from our side and many failed attacks from them. Lady luck must favor them.) and of the appropiate CR. I suppose my players have the advantage of being surface elves, the drow always are a little more reckless when trying to kill surface elves (or Kiaransalee brainwashed their minds and they don't care to die). Send an Avatar of Salvetarm and see if they breeze by lol.
Zanan 01-29-08, 08:42 AM	I'm the DM. ... Sorry, but I stopped reading here.
Alediran 01-29-08, 09:14 AM	When it comes to my character I take extra care to not break any combat rule, and I rein him a lot in terms of combat power (I never went nova with him and my players never complained either). And it's not only Alediran who kills drow by the dozen, all my players have at least ten drow kills (even the rogue/bard/arcane trickster who normaly shys combat) My players are experienced (two of my players are also DMs and we sometimes switch games). Luckly for us combat is only one side of playing, useful to stir things a bit. The first chapter of my campaign was an investigative adventure, the second is a classic dungeon crawl, the third will be a travelling adventure and the fourth will be a Heroes of Battle adventure. We also don't have a true leader in the party, everybody takes lead when the situation calls for the PC's skills. The characters are: Alediran Tir'ent: Sun Elf Wizard 5/Elemental Savant 7 Ivelios Amaquila: Sun Elf Fighter 7/Champion of Corellon Larethian 5 Danathor: Lythari (originaly Wood Elf) Druid 12 Celadra: Drow (the +1 LA version) Cleric of Eilistraee 11 Lorelei "Brightsong": Moon Elf Rogue 3/Bard 7/Arcane Trickster 2 Kaede "Silverwings": Aasimar Fighter 3/Sorc 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Knight of the Weave 1 As you can see, except for Ivelios (and he packs a lot of damage on every swing of his sword, critical hits are always above 40 hp of damage) every player has access to arcane or divine magic (and they are aware of drow's spell resistance, they are prepared for it with spells without SR, Alediran is the only who does cast SR spells because his high CL check against SR). The druid even has a +1 Drowbane Spear.
DoveArrow 01-29-08, 11:02 AM	Thanks for your responses. I'm going to check out that Cormanthyr PDF that someone suggested, as well as the Grand History of the Realms. Also, thanks for the Lillith discussion. I thought it was very interesting. Here's a new question, that I'm curious to see if someone can answer. There's a beautiful piece of fan fiction (http://members.shaw.ca/tatsuki/childofthemoonbegin.html) that talks about Araushnee being jealous of Sehanine, and that Corellon loved her. But jealousy burned in the heart of the goddess Araushnee; jealousy at the love between Corellon and Sehanine and what that love had wrought, and above all, jealousy at her husband’s position as the Colonel of Arvandor. Sensing her discontent, Corellon created for his wife elves who bore her beautifully dark features, and gave them unto her. Instead of easing her anger, this only enraged her, for she believed her husband was patronizing her. But she hid her rage behind a web of deceit, and she took these dark elves under her wing and she taught them to hate their Creator. She convinced Vhaeraun to join her in rebellion by appealing to his pride, and together the two plotted against the Protector. I realize that Corellon and Sehanine had a relationship after Lolth turned traitor, but did they have some sort of relationship beforehand? If so, where did the writer get this information from? I'm curious if anyone knows.
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 01:26 PM	I realize that Corellon and Sehanine had a relationship after Lolth turned traitor, but did they have some sort of relationship beforehand? If so, where did the writer get this information from? I'm curious if anyone knows. In canon, it seems to be the other way around, but frankly from what we know of the leves. Corellon probably routinely had sex with Hanelli, Aerie, Sehaine, Solonar, Labeles, and goodness knows how many others. Corellon might have been a girl at any of those points as well.
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 01:28 PM	Well, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, by Sutherland and Gygax, published in 1980, already had Lolth in there. yes, it makes me wonder when they came up with her and why.
Shiftkitty 01-29-08, 03:10 PM	Here's a theory: Suppose Araushnee and Lolth aren't even the same person? I read somewhere that Lolth killed or otherwise did away with Zinzerena, then took her guise to mislead her followers. Suppose Lolth did the same thing to Araushnee in an attempt to gain influence over Corellon, failed horribly, which led to the split of the drow from the other elves. Araushnee, meanwhile, is either dead or imprisoned, watching helplessly as her children are led down the path to self-destruction. (I apologize if this was covered in a novel somewhere. I haven't read them all.)
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 04:25 PM	Honestly, I think Lantheon shot himself in the foot. Araunshnee was just an evil goddess. LOLTH is a Demon AND a goddess.
Zanan 01-29-08, 06:43 PM	Honestly, I think Lantheon shot himself in the foot. Araunshnee was just an evil goddess. LOLTH is a Demon AND a goddess. Lantheon? Araushnee's initial alignment was never given and I would doubt that Corellon would have married an evil being. Within Realmspace, Araushnee was a goddess, was cursed into tanar'ri form by her loving husband, reclaimed divinity soon after again and choose the name Lolth. Core stuff simply does not matter on here. BTW, going by canon lore on her and "by default" current lore, Lolth in Core was always a deity, even though she is called Demon Queen and whatnot. Just check her stats. Fluff text is not important. :P
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 06:53 PM	Corellon Larethian. Sorry. But yes, Araushnee's becoming a Demon then Goddess makes her about a million times worse than your average Goddess.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 09:54 PM	Lantheon? Araushnee's initial alignment was never given and I would doubt that Corellon would have married an evil being. -Odds are, she was CN, judging by her behavior, and eventually went to CN with Evil Tendencies, to just plain ol' NE.
Bonzai 01-30-08, 12:06 AM	Corellon Larethian. Sorry. But yes, Araushnee's becoming a Demon then Goddess makes her about a million times worse than your average Goddess. Couldn't be helped. We all go through that phase where we fall for that girl, that we know is bad for you, but we keep doing it anyway...
The Ubbergeek 01-30-08, 08:37 PM	How about a vaguely chthuluesque idea, akin to what happened to the Queen of Air and Darkness and other gods/entities... One of the theories that I have entertained is that she was corrupted somehow. Be it intelectual dark seduction, or something more innate, devious.... Was there a primordial, ancient elder evil, a Thing that Should Not Be that could have slipped in her being? tharuzidun?
Shiftkitty 01-30-08, 10:34 PM	Funny you should mention Tharizdun. As I started reading your post, that was the first thing I thought. Are there 3.5 stats for him/it? The very mention of the name makes my the most powerful PC in the campaign shudder. I may trot him out as our storyline about the drow gets more and more intense...:plotting:
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:10 AM	Was there a primordial, ancient elder evil, a Thing that Should Not Be that could have slipped in her being? tharuzidun? -Ghaundaur.
The Ubbergeek 01-31-08, 12:16 AM	-Ghaundaur. Good point. And good idea, story hook... Small players can make big changes.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:19 AM	Good point. And good idea, story hook... -It would also explained why Ghaunadaur was so extremely angered when he could not assimilate Lolth, enough to strike his own worship base down.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 01:53 AM	Good point. And good idea, story hook... Small players can make big changes. Oddly, in my 4E thread, I'm going to be doing a write-up of Ghaundaur as Tharizdun's avatar.
Zanan 01-31-08, 03:58 AM	Good point. And good idea, story hook... Small players can make big changes. Nono ... this is not Lord of the Rings ;)
The Ubbergeek 01-31-08, 12:55 PM	Nono ... this is not Lord of the Rings ;) And yet, the little kender in Dragonlance... ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 02-05-08, 09:05 PM	BTW, going by canon lore on her and "by default" current lore, Lolth in Core was always a deity, even though she is called Demon Queen and whatnot. Just check her stats. Fluff text is not important. :P She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics.
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 09:31 PM	She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics. I disagree. I like that Lolth, in addition to being a goddess, is literally an incarnation of evil.
The Ubbergeek 02-05-08, 09:33 PM	She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics. To be the Devil( AH!)'s advocate... is that a Planescape retconing of the Greyhawk (specially)/Forgotten Realms's backstory?
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 11:06 PM	She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics. -As the final issue of DRAGON says, concerning Lolth's origins, "Lolth's history is as tangled as the webs that wreath her Demonweb Pits. Some legends claim her as a demon who became a goddess, while others as a goddess who became a demon. The truth is a mixture of both." -Anyway, in the Realms, when Corellon stripped her of her divinity and cast her from Arvandor, she was something. As that same article goes on to say, "[he] exiled her to join the demons she's come to resemble." -An argument can be made for both camps. I prefer to look at it that when she was stripped of her divine powers, she became a demon in actuality, rather than simply by name only.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-06-08, 02:45 AM	-As the final issue of DRAGON says, concerning Lolth's origins, "Lolth's history is as tangled as the webs that wreath her Demonweb Pits. Some legends claim her as a demon who became a goddess, while others as a goddess who became a demon. The truth is a mixture of both." -Anyway, in the Realms, when Corellon stripped her of her divinity and cast her from Arvandor, she was something. As that same article goes on to say, "[he] exiled her to join the demons she's come to resemble." -An argument can be made for both camps. I prefer to look at it that when she was stripped of her divine powers, she became a demon in actuality, rather than simply by name only. I should probably point out that I wrote Lolth's entry in the final DRAGON. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywink.gif
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 03:12 AM	I should probably point out that I wrote Lolth's entry in the final DRAGON. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywink.gif -Your own web of intrigue has painted you into this corner, then, Shemmy. :P
GoldDragon 02-06-08, 08:09 AM	Lilith isn't actually part of mainstream Jewish Mythology, just as a note. I had an Orthodox Rabbi friend of mine pretty much get royally :censored: off when people asked about it since he always felt that she was a heresy that diminished the role of Eve as the first woman while also turning the Fall of Man into a sexist parable instead of one about Obedience To God. He wasn't always right about some things (He insisted she was unrelated to the Summerian Goddess) but I always was interested in it. But it'd be interesting to ask Elaine Cunningham over in her thread in Candlekeep whether she had the Myth of Lilith in mind when she was creating the origin of Lolth in Evermeet. Lillith wasn't a Adam (Human), she was a "Rapheal" ("Serpent","Leprechaun") that was presented to "Adam" by the "Elohim" (Plural) that "shaked and baked" Eden in 7 days from their Shattered cilivization on Earth cause "he" was lonely, But Lillith said she rather give birth 1000 times a day then be with "Adam" so she left and had her children in the still smoldering wasteland.(with her choice granted by the Elohim so she populated the world outside of Eden with her sons and daughters) The Elohim then decided to just divide "Adam" into Male and female instead of finding "him" another companion as the reason why "Adam" wasn't made with a mate was because "he" was actually a hermaphrodite (Male and female combined....."A-sexual"). The weirder stuff of this is the 6 major races of "Angels' ("From the Sky") that existed before Adams("Humans") and their civilizations on Earth,Mars,Venus, and Rajat ("The Morning Star", Now the Astroid belt between Mars and Jupiter) and thier "fall from grace" causing Rajat to explode and it's destruction in turn destroying the cilivizations on Mars,Venus, and Earth.......then the "Eden Project" being an attempt to "recolonize" with Adam as the "caretaker" of sorts. The "first Vampire" thing is amusing too as the Children of Adams mixed with the Children of Lillith once Adam and Eve was kicked out of "Eden" so she'd be eventually stalking her own desendents/bloodline Um. As far as Loth...she got her asss kicked, her power stripped, and thrown into Hell so people saying Big "C" is "soft" is just funny. True Power is knowing you don't have to use it unless absolutely necessary and don't have to flaunt it like a Tyrant to get things done or coward people into doing your bidding. Example: My 140th level Cavalier is more then willing to talk/negotiate as while violence is a "quick solution" it can't solve all problems.(And there is no Honor in obliterating a inferior foe unnecessarily)
Zanan 02-06-08, 09:09 AM	I should probably point out that I wrote Lolth's entry in the final DRAGON. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywink.gif And thanks for that. For while it is still ambiguous, it is the only one which officially states (unless retconned) that she became something greater. BTW ... EtttDWP speaks of a Shemeshka the Marauder, a NE female arcanoloth. Any relations? :detect: Gold Dragon ... well, actually he was not "soft", just as downright stupid as the Egyptians in The Mummy were, entombing Imhotep as a living mummy which eventually will destroy the world at some later date. (BTW, she was cast into the Abyss and thrived, while Big C went on chasing dreams while his kin declined in status and numbers.)
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 11:10 AM	Lillith wasn't a Adam (Human), she was a "Rapheal" ("Serpent","Leprechaun") that was presented to "Adam" by the "Elohim" (Plural) that "shaked and baked" Eden in 7 days from their Shattered cilivization on Earth cause "he" was lonely, But Lillith said she rather give birth 1000 times a day then be with "Adam" so she left and had her children in the still smoldering wasteland.(with her choice granted by the Elohim so she populated the world outside of Eden with her sons and daughters) The Elohim then decided to just divide "Adam" into Male and female instead of finding "him" another companion as the reason why "Adam" wasn't made with a mate was because "he" was actually a hermaphrodite (Male and female combined....."A-sexual"). The weirder stuff of this is the 6 major races of "Angels' ("From the Sky") that existed before Adams("Humans") and their civilizations on Earth,Mars,Venus, and Rajat ("The Morning Star", Now the Astroid belt between Mars and Jupiter) and thier "fall from grace" causing Rajat to explode and it's destruction in turn destroying the cilivizations on Mars,Venus, and Earth.......then the "Eden Project" being an attempt to "recolonize" with Adam as the "caretaker" of sorts. The "first Vampire" thing is amusing too as the Children of Adams mixed with the Children of Lillith once Adam and Eve was kicked out of "Eden" so she'd be eventually stalking her own desendents/bloodline Um. As far as Loth...she got her asss kicked, her power stripped, and thrown into Hell so people saying Big "C" is "soft" is just funny. True Power is knowing you don't have to use it unless absolutely necessary and don't have to flaunt it like a Tyrant to get things done or coward people into doing your bidding. Example: My 140th level Cavalier is more then willing to talk/negotiate as while violence is a "quick solution" it can't solve all problems.(And there is no Honor in obliterating a inferior foe unnecessarily) I don't really think anyone believes that story is true because it completely contradicts the Torah.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-06-08, 11:14 AM	BTW ... EtttDWP speaks of a Shemeshka the Marauder, a NE female arcanoloth. Any relations? :detect: The character predates me (and my use of the name as a board handle) by some years. The character was around in 2e in a bunch of Planescape books, and has showed up in a few places in 3.x as a notable person in Sigil.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:33 PM	BTW ... EtttDWP speaks of a Shemeshka the Marauder, a NE female arcanoloth. Any relations? :detect: -Alright, I've spent about five minutes thinking. What does 'EtttDWP' stand for? I don't really think anyone believes that story is true because it completely contradicts the Torah. -Which doesn't mean anything.
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 12:36 PM	Actually, I think Lilith was always a folklore Jewish Demon and the "Lilith was Adam's wife" was actually introduced in the Middle Ages in a book of Anti-Semetic short stories.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:53 PM	Actually, I think Lilith was always a folklore Jewish Demon and the "Lilith was Adam's wife" was actually introduced in the Middle Ages in a book of Anti-Semetic short stories. -Lillith appears in this fashion in some passages in the various Kabbalistic books and writings, none of which, of course, are mainstream canon.
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 01:00 PM	Yes, my question on that was whether she was a Demoness or Adam's wife in that. I'm not familiar enough to say. But, I do have to ask the Marauder why she doesn't think Lolth should be a Demoness?
Zanan 02-06-08, 01:29 PM	-Alright, I've spent about five minutes thinking. What does 'EttDWP' stand for?. Expedition to the Demonweb Pits ... wasn't that obvious? ;) Charles Phipps Yes, my question on that was whether she was a Demoness or Adam's wife in that. The lore for the FR are pretty clear about this. What the Core lore says is interesting, but not relevant. If people refer to AD&D lore being the same for all settings, FR lore is the most detailed and ... going back to my initial statement, Lolth was indeed a deity (or rather "lesser power" / "goddess of Elven destiny" back then, DD, p.26) first, became a part-time tanar'ri and regained divinity once more. We do talk Lolth, don't we? But, I do have to ask the Marauder why she doesn't think Lolth should be a Demoness? Unless I am mistaken, Shem is not really a NE female arcanoloth. ;) I would assume Shem goes by the most detailed lore available on her, i.e. Demihuman Deities.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-06-08, 01:52 PM	But, I do have to ask the Marauder why she doesn't think Lolth should be a Demoness? It's a question of Lolth's metaphysical identity, and what it means to be a fiend. Lolth as a deity is effectively a personification of a mortal conception of evil (and chaos and some other bits of her portfolio): she is what the belief in her makes her to be. Fiends on the other hand are physical incarnations of evil on a more primal level, divorced from mortal conceits. A fiend might arise spontaneously from the substance of its native plane (my namesake female NE arcanaloth for instance), or it might form from the core of a mortal soul drawn to a lower plane which subsequently undergoes a transformative event as that plane claims what belongs to it (Orcus for instance, having once been a mortal). Lolth on the other hand was neither formed from the raw substance of a plane of manifest Evil, nor was she ever a mortal whose soul was digested and spat out by the Abyss (or another lower plane) after a sort of dark transfiguration. As a deity she might become evil and become corrupted by a lower plane, but beyond a certain level of affinity, it's simply beyond her nature to become a living extension of a lower plane like a fiend (whatever its origin) effectively is. She's evil aligned, they're -evil-. There's a fundamental difference between the two that cannot be bridged. My personal perspective is that by her nature, Lolth as a deity lacks the innate connection to the Abyss that would make her a demon in anything more than name, and her substance is something that the Abyss either can't or won't utilize to fashion more of its children (unless Lolth cared to die and allow the Abyss to cannibalize her essence to form a race of fiends in the manner of how the Loumara were formed). Of course, for 99.99999% of mortals, the difference between Belemshigor the Lord of the 987641st layer of the Abyss as a tanar'ri lord, and Lolth the "demon" Queen of Spiders is pretty much academic. The difference between the two really only comes into play if you get into Abyssal/Lower Planar politics, and what sort of power each of those respective beings wields in the Abyss proper versus the lower planes in general versus the prime material. Of course I didn't have the space in the article to fully get into that difference between deity and fiend, nor am I sure that I'd want to really force my perspective on the issue in print so overtly. Really I just wanted to reconcile the Greyhawk and FR origin stories, and make some mention of the Silence and its effect on worlds on the prime outside of Toril.
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 02:15 PM	Noted. I suppose it would then come down to the issue of whether Corellon physically has the power to strip an elf goddess of her divine rank, physically remake her soul into that of a creature of pure evil, and then promptly toss her through a portal into the lowest levels of darkness. Good explanation, though I am curious if you feel that Demons can become Deities or whether the two terms are utterly irreconciable.
Zanan 02-06-08, 02:18 PM	-Lillith appears in this fashion in some passages in the various Kabbalistic books and writings, none of which, of course, are mainstream canon. Heck, and here was me thinking we speak of Lilith, the one time consort of Moloch, the second consort of Baalzebub, Lord of the Seventh! Silly me! @ Charles Phipps ... he had the power, because he did it. The how does not exactly matter ... and probably never will to the designers. It is very much academical and trying to disect it down to the core is a task bound to fail, as we have hardly anything but a couple of facts to dwell upon.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 02:50 PM	Heck, and here was me thinking we speak of Lilith, the one time consort of Moloch, the second consort of Baalzebub, Lord of the Seventh! Silly me! -Obviously not, since Charles was asking where in Jewish folklore she appeared. :rolleyes: Yes, my question on that was whether she was a Demoness or Adam's wife in that. I'm not familiar enough to say. -The former, most likely. Ancient Judiasm took to the concept that other "extraplanar powers", or whatever you want to call them existed- Egyptian deities, Mesopotamian deities, and so on. As the people of Mesopotamia existed as contemporaries, and the story of Lillith appeared during the Middle Ages, when Kaballah became 'popular', for a lack of a better term, it is likely that she was seen as a demon (as other 'extraplanar powers' who were worshiped by other cultures, such as Ba'al were seen as) first.
Alediran 02-06-08, 03:07 PM	-Obviously not, since Charles was asking where in Jewish folklore she appeared. :rolleyes: -The former, most likely. Ancient Judiasm took to the concept that other "extraplanar powers", or whatever you want to call them existed- Egyptian deities, Mesopotamian deities, and so on. As the people of Mesopotamia existed as contemporaries, and the story of Lillith appeared during the Middle Ages, when Kaballah became 'popular', for a lack of a better term, it is likely that she was seen as a demon (as other 'extraplanar powers' who were worshiped by other cultures, such as Ba'al were seen as) first. I definitely need to study more :P
Shiftkitty 02-06-08, 03:15 PM	RE: Lolth and demon status In the 2e "Queen of the Spiders" it's stated that Lolth is not her real name. I believe this is in reference to if the players try to control her via her true name. I thought this was something that worked only against demons?
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 03:32 PM	In the 2e "Queen of the Spiders" it's stated that Lolth is not her real name. I believe this is in reference to if the players try to control her via her true name. I thought this was something that worked only against demons? -Well, no, her actual name is Araushnee, as that was her first name. Lolth was the name she gave herself, after being banished from Arvandor.
Zanan 02-06-08, 06:34 PM	-Obviously not, since Charles was asking where in Jewish folklore she appeared. :rolleyes:. Really?! :D Shiftkitty RE: Lolth and demon status In the 2e "Queen of the Spiders" it's stated that Lolth is not her real name. I believe this is in reference to if the players try to control her via her true name. I thought this was something that worked only against demons? Queen of Spiders was written long before Demihuman Deities and Evermeet. Both these books were Realmsbound though and I doubt that the Spider Queen's "true"/"previous" Core name was ever revealed. As for "real name" or "true name" magic, that varied throughout the editions. Could actually check it in the new Tome of Magic ...
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 06:56 PM	Really?! :D -Read and behold! As for "real name" or "true name" magic, that varied throughout the editions. Could actually check it in the new Tome of Magic ... -A quick perusal of Tome of Magic did not mention the True Name of Lolth.
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 07:10 PM	I know Lolth's truename. It's Lauren.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 12:41 AM	I know Lolth's truename. It's Lauren. -That's odd. Most True Names sound something like, "Ashkendunterzifipenterglas'Jhaerety'Akka tunjgh", or something to that effect.
Zanan 02-07-08, 04:12 AM	-A quick perusal of Tome of Magic did not mention the True Name of Lolth. But something about the effects of truename magic on deities? :cool: NB: No, it does not. (But most likely will in 4E.)
Jiggawha 02-07-08, 04:28 AM	the way I see it, both Corellon Larethian (maybe he was a leshay) and Lolth formed from the raw substance of a plane (or what preceded the formations of planes), later as the hierarchies of power, divisions of multiverse through belief been developing Corellon Larethian became a part of the god-system. I always get the feeling that she was invited in that system, later she was kicked out and became something that was a mesh of her primordial form plus hatred/anger/vengefullness. I wonder is there any connection between her and Queen of Chaos or Queen of Air and Darkness
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 03:48 PM	NB: No, it does not. (But most likely will in 4E.) -That's if True Name magic makes it to 4e. There wasn't very much support for it in 3e, to begin with.
Zanan 02-07-08, 04:13 PM	-That's if True Name magic makes it to 4e. There wasn't very much support for it in 3e, to begin with. Dunno, but AFAIK, it only made it into 3E with Tome of Magic, i.e. some time in 2006. Not that much time to make any impact. I like the shadow magic stuff more, I have to say - though noticed the book only after reading Eytan Bernstein's FR-related articles.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 04:23 PM	-Though, the concept of True Names, and whatever, have been around for who knows how long. It might even be one of those basic, core fantasy concepts. It'll probably be around in some form or another. I don't know about the entire system presented in Tome of Magic, though. Mind you, I got the book as a gift recently, and I've only really skimmed through it, but it seems very complicated.
Kiioro 02-08-08, 07:55 PM	I wrote in another thread about truenaming, from Tome of Magic. The DC of names goes higher depending on the hit die of what you're trying to do, the more HD, the more exacting (DC) the pronunciation becomes. For example if Cyric/Shar had used True Name magic, the "spells" that would deliver a killing blow to Mystra would be something akin to Unname. To unname someone like a god must be so hard it'd be stupid to even try for someone like Cyric (or Shar, anyway), for they'd need a few levels in the True Namer class. So, to ease the DC, they would've tried something like the truename for "[Mystra's truename] who doesn't suspect that I'm in Dweomerheart right behind her and about to obilerate her-hahaha" + Unname, or something. Or maybe using her truename as a component of a far more complex spell of shadow magic, that could be easier to believe. Anyway, I still believe that Lolth/Lloth VS Corellon was the most epic and spectacular cat fight ever. Maybe the reasons go far before, when she was Araushnee or the demoness or whatever-she-was and the murder attempt was already in her plans. After all, Lolth tries hard to make sure her origins are murky at best, there is no certain absolutely correct history of hers AFAIK.
Gallameed 02-09-08, 10:56 AM	I like to think of Toril as the 'Garden of Eden' of the D&D universe - it is where all life begins, and travels forth and multiplies, eventually to find its way home, and come full-circle. Like the Elves did... :) Aw, thats beautiful. :)
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 09:27 PM	For me, I differentiate between Greater Gods and "Elder Gods" in my games. Elder Gods are those created at the Dawn of the Universe and are ridiculously powerful. Lolth isn't an Elder God like Corellon and her attempts to measure up to him are kinda pathetic. Shar is an Elder God as are Selune and Amaunator (later Lathander).
Zanan 02-10-08, 05:45 PM	For me, I differentiate between Greater Gods and "Elder Gods" in my games. Elder Gods are those created at the Dawn of the Universe and are ridiculously powerful. Lolth isn't an Elder God like Corellon and her attempts to measure up to him are kinda pathetic. Shar is an Elder God as are Selune and Amaunator (later Lathander). Was just going to ask how you came to the conclusion that Corellon predates Araushnee/Lolth ... but then I noted "I" and "in my games" :cool:
Alediran 02-11-08, 07:52 AM	One of Corellon's titles is First of the Seldarine. Which means he is the Eldest member of the Elven Pantheon.
Zanan 02-11-08, 10:31 AM	One of Corellon's titles is First of the Seldarine. Which means he is the Eldest member of the Elven Pantheon. No, it means "First of the Seldarine". :D As in: He's the one at the top. Another example ... "Princeps Senatus" (First of the Senate) was a title carried by the Roman Emperors and rest assured, there were many senators in the senate who were far older then the respective emperors.
Alediran 02-11-08, 10:42 AM	But we know from the Elven Myths that from Corellon the other Seldarine were born.
ripvanwormer 02-12-08, 02:07 AM	But we know from the Elven Myths that from Corellon the other Seldarine were born. Well, the myths actually vary on that subject. Some elven myths say that Corellon created the other elven gods, while others say many of them were born at the same time. Seldarine means "brothers and sisters of the High Forest," after all, not "brothers and sisters and parent." Some of them, like Shevarash, Vhaeraun, and Eilistraee, are certainly younger than the others, but we don't know for sure that Araushnee, Sehanine Moonbow, or Labelas Enoreth (for example) are any younger than Corellon is.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 02:26 AM	Was just going to ask how you came to the conclusion that Corellon predates Araushnee/Lolth ... but then I noted "I" and "in my games" :cool: Also, frankly, it's just outright stupid to have it otherwise. Araunshee's entire thing is she's probably weak even amongst the Seldarine. Kiranshalee is older! ;-)
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 02:27 AM	Kiranshalee is older! -Not necessarily.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 02:47 AM	True, though I always liked it that she was in the Abyss first when Lolth got her butt tossed down.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-12-08, 02:53 AM	True, though I always liked it that she was in the Abyss first when Lolth got her butt tossed down. I http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmychibi.gif Kiaransalee.
Reneshat 02-12-08, 04:07 AM	In response to the initial question, there is no such thing as deity strength Midol.
ripvanwormer 02-12-08, 05:16 PM	In my version of the story (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=10334), the mortal Kiaransalee was a worshipper of the as-yet-unfallen Araushnee. “Araushnee,” she whispered. “Guide me, Great Weaver. Guide your lost one to freedom.” She stepped through the door. Stop, ordered the darkness. Don’t go through. Don’t forget, I still have your children’s souls. “I won’t forget,” she promised the world of Thanatos. “I’ll be back for them.” She stepped into a forest where all the leaves of the towering trees were shining silver-bright. There seemed no end to the land, no place where it dropped off into the sky. “The High Forest,” she whispered. Oh my, whispered the trees. You are a lost one. What has become of you, princess Kiaran? “I was a queen,” Kiaransalee said to the wind. You were a slave, the leaves laughed at her. “I have been many things,” Kiaransalee admitted. You have only been a slave. To your family, to your husband, to your vengeance, to that thing in the dark. You have only been a slave. “I have learned much,” said Kiaransalee. “I am so much more than I was.” No, said the trees, and thousands of red eyes looked at her from silver webs. You are still a slave. You will always be a slave. “This is the fate you intend for me?” Kiaransalee clenched and unclenched a fist, her hand wanting to work magic but not having a direction to point in. This is your fate, said the spiders. Kiaransalee stretched out her power, the power she had gained by drinking of Orcus and learning his secrets. The ground rippled. All around her, the divine spiders of Araushnee died. Then they got up again. “I will defy my fate,” said Kiaransalee. All of reality rippled. The skies above the silver trees darkened.The pale cold fire within the dead spiders went out. The spiders quickened with new life. A nice trick, said the spiders. A pretty new collar for Orcus’ little kitty. Drink of my venom, kitty,and perhaps you can choose the collar you think you want. But you can only ever trade one collar for another, kitty cat. You will always be a pet. You will never be truly free. The spiders were everywhere. They came toward her like a great wind,and she could not stop them. Her changes were instantly erased. They filled her mouth and nose and eyes. Unwillingly, she drank. None of us are free, said Araushnee, looking sadly at her misguided daughter. The goddess knew what was to come. She knew all of it: the unforgivable atrocities that Kiaransalee was yet to commit, Araushnee’s own betrayals millennia later. She was a goddess of fate; she spun the threads of destiny even as destiny spun her. There was nothing she could do. She could cut the threads, but they were all that supported her. Without them, she would still fall into the Abyss. Araushnee wept venomous tears, and went to be comforted in the arms of the god she had chosen as a lover.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 06:17 PM	That seems to increase Lolth's power too much. I like that she really was a minor goddess that Corellon raised up too far.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 07:28 PM	Well, the myths actually vary on that subject. Some elven myths say that Corellon created the other elven gods, while others say many of them were born at the same time. Seldarine means "brothers and sisters of the High Forest," after all, not "brothers and sisters and parent." Some of them, like Shevarash, Vhaeraun, and Eilistraee, are certainly younger than the others, but we don't know for sure that Araushnee, Sehanine Moonbow, or Labelas Enoreth (for example) are any younger than Corellon is. And, personally, I've been liking the idea of Labelas being the oldest member of the Seldarine. Remember that pantheon heads are often NOT the oldest member of their particular divine family.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 07:30 PM	Eh, for me, I tend to think Corellon is the AwesomestTM. He's probably older than any god but Ao.
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 07:37 PM	He's probably older than any god but Ao. -In Realmspace. It's important to make that distinction. Anyway, him and deities of that calliber- Moradin, Yondella, etc.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 07:41 PM	Again, you can be The Awesome without being the oldest. The oldest, in fact, tend to... Well, age. Zeus was the third sky god figure head of the Greek pantheon, Odin came after Ymir (and who knows how old any of the Vanir were?), the first Meso-American deities tended to be female Earth goddesses, Tiamat (the bitter salt water version) was the first Babylonian deity, Ptah was the first deity (according to one of the established Egyptian cosmogonies), etc.
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 07:42 PM	While I like the elves, I am annoyed at their pride at times, so if he was not actually the oldest and say... moradin was, I'd have a small kick. Just like that. And I am less of a dwarves fan. Would just be nice to see somes of such things they say is not quite as true as they present it.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 07:56 PM	Again, you can be The Awesome without being the oldest. The oldest, in fact, tend to... Well, age. I know. I also believe that it doesn't quite work for a god of immortal and eternally young fae.
ripvanwormer 02-12-08, 08:14 PM	I know. I also believe that it doesn't quite work for a god of immortal and eternally young fae. They weren't immortal or eternally young until Labelas Enoreth came along (elven agelessness is specifically Labelas' gift). If Corellon is older than Labelas, it would make sense for him to appear much older than the rest of the elven gods. Hanali Celanil has a fountain of beauty, of course, but that's different from a fountain of youth. While gods don't always age as mortals do, your argument depends on a comparison with the mortal elven race. I also think your "this seems to increase Lolth's power too much" post is puzzling. Without any support for your opinion, I must confess I have no idea what your justifications might be. Why would Lolth be "too powerful" just because she is older than Kiaransalee, and potentially as old as Corellon Larethian? Age, as Dan persuasively pointed out, does not correspond with power among the gods. I actually prefer leaving the relative power between Corellon and Araushnee, and who might have actually been in the "right" in that particular argument, ambiguous. The drow claim their goddess is the rightful ruler that Corellon usurped, while the surface elves claim the opposite. While their alignments are clear, the actual legal merits of their cases need not be. Corellon is a chaotic god, after all, and banishing the rightful inheritor of Labelas' power and giving his priests a false version of events isn't beyond him, if he thought the greater good was served by him doing so.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-12-08, 08:34 PM	Eh, for me, I tend to think Corellon is the AwesomestTM. He's probably older than any god but Ao. Well, as an interloper, it's quite possible that he's older than the formation of Toril (and thus presumably Ao). I rather like the idea that Corellon was the first of the Seldarine yes, but not initially a god of elves, rather having been formed by the worship of an incredibly ancient race of mortals, now long forgotten. As obscenely old as he was, having been formed already by the faith of a mortal race, with his original followers decimated (perhaps incidentally) by the obyrith/tanar'ri war versus the Wind Dukes, he could have created the first elves as new worshippers in imitation of the Eladrin races of Arborea. He might have even witnessed (and been inspired by) the Eladrins' creation by the hands of the now vanished celestial progenitor race whose ruins remain on Pelion/Mithardiir.
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 08:48 PM	Hum... Theory/idea, more directly tied to FR. The Creator Fey race, a proto-Fey race. That was their god. Would that fly?
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 09:12 PM	They weren't immortal or eternally young until Labelas Enoreth came along (elven agelessness is specifically Labelas' gift). Then I'd prefer Corellon not to be an elf. :-) Perhaps the god of the Fey?
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 12:08 AM	-I never liked the notion of a Fey creator race. That is, a race that all other Fey creatures spawned from.
ripvanwormer 02-13-08, 02:35 AM	Maybe he was a member of a primitive, bestial race that are to elves as Australopithecuses are to humans. Or maybe he was just a child of older gods, like Frey and Freya. The Illithiad recounts an elven creation myth where the gods are the children of Mother Earth and Father Sky (page 38). Meanwhile, Races of the Wild suggests they appeared, fully formed, in the primal void (page 25). On Hallowed Ground suggests a number of origins for the elven gods: some grew from elven passions (presumedly Hanali Celanil), some rose from nature (Rilifane Rallathil, I'm assuming), while others existed before the first elf drew breath (Corellon, Sehanine, and Araushnee would all be among these, since elves were born from Corellon's blood while Sehanine was aiding him against Gruumsh, and Araushnee was aiding Gruumsh). Since Kiaransalee was an elf, and Araushnee was very much around when the first elves were born, Araushnee must be older than Kiaransalee (if the myths have any truth to them). Rather than present her as powerful, I actually tried to stress how Araushnee, as goddess of faith, was almost powerless to do anything but what her fate demanded.
Alediran 02-13-08, 07:37 AM	Araushnee helped Gruumsh long after the Tel'Quessir were born, during the time when she was cast out of the Arvandor. Which means she is not necesarily older than the first elves, she could have been raised after the elves. Which means that Kiaransalee could be older than Lolth.
Zanan 02-13-08, 09:45 AM	Since Kiaransalee was an elf, and Araushnee was very much around when the first elves were born, Araushnee must be older than Kiaransalee (if the myths have any truth to them). Rather than present her as powerful, I actually tried to stress how Araushnee, as goddess of faith, was almost powerless to do anything but what her fate demanded. With regards to the above and the novel-bit above, do keep in mind that a) Kiaransalee was not of this world, b ) Araushnee is the name of Lolth before her descent on this world and thus c) it is unlikely that Kiaransalee was a worshipper of "Araushnee" somewhere else. (Which is of no concern to your way of viewing it, of course.) That said, we do know that the Seldarine was in place at the time of Kiaransalee's retreat to the Abyss, as she gained godhood there to escape the Seldarine's wrath for her deeds on Threnody. Still, coming to think of it, Araushnee was, though just a minor goddess, the Weaver of Destiny amongst the Elven deities. And deities/beings of fate- and destiny-weaving are generally quite old as well and hold much power, even on greater beings than themselves. GothicDan will surely be able to expand on the role of the Germanic/Norse Norns (et al), whom even Odin had to fear.
daimyotx 02-13-08, 12:04 PM	Book 5 in War of the Spider Queen sort of back up that concept, Zanan. I found it interesting that it's basically stated that Lolth had forseen her rise in power. When Pharaun, Danifae, Quenthel, & Jeggred are standing in the old Demonweb Pits at the gateway to Lolth's new DWP - they encounter the Abyssal Widows... Danifae mentions that she heard mention of them as growing up and that she always thought that they were heresy. Their reply was that they "were only legend. Were only prophecy". This sets my mind going on all kinds of trains. Mainly that Araushnee/Lolth was the Weaver of Destiny for Elves. She might have followed the path that she has because she knows the final outcome and has known it all along. She might be thwarting the drow's return to the surface not just because she is making them stronger, but because the time still isn't right from what she has forseen. Even as a deity of Chaos, she may still have a grander design that she is following to a greater goal. I was ho-hum on Lolth until book 5. Then I was like: "ooo! oooo!!!" (sad, huh?)
ripvanwormer 02-13-08, 04:37 PM	With regards to the above and the novel-bit above, do keep in mind that a) Kiaransalee was not of this world, b ) Araushnee is the name of Lolth before her descent on this world and thus c) it is unlikely that Kiaransalee was a worshipper of "Araushnee" somewhere else. I'm not following your reasoning. Before Araushnee was known as Lolth, she was a member of the Seldarine (at least for a time, though she may doesn't seem to have originated as one). If there was a period of time between the creation of the elves and Araushnee's fall (and there must have been a fairly lengthy one, if Kiaransalee was an elf and fell first, unless Kiaransalee managed to rise to power and destroy her homeworld the day after she was created), presumedly there would have been elves who worshipped Araushnee, whether on Threnody (where they certainly worshipped the Seldarine) or Toril (though there probably weren't any elves on Toril back then, which would have been over 30,000 years ago).
Zanan 02-13-08, 06:42 PM	I'm not following your reasoning. Before Araushnee was known as Lolth, she was a member of the Seldarine (at least for a time, though she may doesn't seem to have originated as one). If there was a period of time between the creation of the elves and Araushnee's fall (and there must have been a fairly lengthy one, if Kiaransalee was an elf and fell first, unless Kiaransalee managed to rise to power and destroy her homeworld the day after she was created), presumedly there would have been elves who worshipped Araushnee, whether on Threnody (where they certainly worshipped the Seldarine) or Toril (though there probably weren't any elves on Toril back then, which would have been over 30,000 years ago). Quite simple: Araushnee was the name of the FR goddess (a member of the FR Seldarine) whereas Kiaransalee was originally not a FR deity. Cannot point my fingers on it, but I would assume that she entered the Faerûnian pantheon pretty late - in the lorebooks that is 1996 - AFAIK with Evermeet and Demihuman Deities. So it is only conjecture to say that a) Araushnee belonged to the Core Seldarine and b ) even more so that Kiaransalee may have worshipped her. As it looks, it seem more likely that Kiaransalee did not worship anyone. Back then, even the Araushnee of the Realms may not have taken up steps to dispossess Corellon, or even was "evil".
GoldDragon 02-13-08, 07:18 PM	-I never liked the notion of a Fey creator race. That is, a race that all other Fey creatures spawned from. But like Aphrodite's clergy saying she was born of the Sea foam when she was in fact the Daughter of Zeus and a Nymph, it can be hard to distinguish truth from history,legend,lore, and or "fact" The Creator Races, from my understanding, didn't so much "create" their servitors,subjects,and thralls as they did manipulate there own gene pool to adopt to the environment or steal/migrate peoples from Elsewhere in the Multiverse (via the "Crystal Gates"?) and tinker with their Genes to make different creatures for different means and tasks As far as the "first Migration' I believe Elves got the "dibs" on being Migrated in first thus "Abier-Toril" (Cradle of Life) and "Faerun" with their godlings in tow and the "Serpentines" coming in next (with their godlings in tow) and they having a habit of importing Slaves of other races with their godlings in tow All that isn't to odd about Toril being the place of the "True Elves" in the Multiverse when Earth is where "True Humans" come from, and Athas is where "True Halflings" and "Tri-Kreen" come from and "Dragonlands" is where "True Dragons" come from. ("True Orcs" come from the Abyss, and "True Dwarfs" come from the Elemental Plane of Earth)
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 07:53 PM	But like Aphrodite's clergy saying she was born of the Sea foam when she was in fact the Daughter of Zeus and a Nymph, it can be hard to distinguish truth from history,legend,lore, and or "fact" -I'm talking about the cold, hard facts of the Creator Races, and in this case, the Fey Creator Race- of which, we know very little, truthfully. The Creator Races, from my understanding, didn't so much "create" their servitors,subjects,and thralls as they did manipulate there own gene pool to adopt to the environment or steal/migrate peoples from Elsewhere in the Multiverse (via the "Crystal Gates"?) and tinker with their Genes to make different creatures for different means and tasks -Each Creator Race was different, in what they did. Some may have evolved into the races that are believed to be off-shoots of them. Others were created. I never really considered steal/migrate peoples, but the Fey Creator race fit this bill, concerning the early Elves, whom they brought to Abeir-Toril, for whatever reason. An essay in Elves of Faerûn, entitled 'The First Coming of the Elves' centers upon this topic.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-13-08, 08:32 PM	So it is only conjecture to say that a) Araushnee belonged to the Core Seldarine It's likewise even more amazing conjecture that Araushnee was only a local goddess who joined the Seldarine once they arrived as interlopers and established a divine presence on Toril. And it's not conjecture that Araushnee was the name Lolth was known by on worlds beyond just Toril when she was ejected from the Seldarine. While it was first described in an FR book, it's not a uniquely FR tale describing her fall. It's the common myth for Araushnee/Lolth's fall into Evil, unless you're using a wierd Seldarine-of-the-multiverse-outside-of-Toril and FR-Seladrine are entirely different and unconnected.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:49 PM	It's the common myth for Araushnee/Lolth's fall into Evil, unless you're using a wierd Seldarine-of-the-multiverse-outside-of-Toril and FR-Seladrine are entirely different and unconnected. -Zanan does that sometimes.
Soltares 02-14-08, 11:41 AM	According to Sehanine's doctrine, *she* was Corellon's wife before the creation of the elves (from his blood and her tears), so Sehanine thinks that Lolth is full of hoo-ey and was never married to her boytoy (since, to hear her tell it, Sehanine was married to Corellon before there were dark elves anyway). Of course, I think Sehanine is full of hoo-ey, which leaves me in the dubious position of believing Lolth's story over hers... Lolth's story at least doesn't contradict Corellon's entire backstory. For my own game-world, Corellon was a chaotic fey warrior type, who met a reserved elven goddess of fate and arcane mysteries. They made elves, of equal parts flesh and magic. She spent a lot of time weaving and viewing strands of fate for their chosen people (and trying to tame the wild Corellon, while he equally tried to get her to 'lighten up' and live a little, not be so serious all the time). She was sucked into her viewings of possible futures and manipulated *by her future self* into becoming more dictatorial and supremacist, convinced that other races would hunt her people and that they would be driven into the depths of the earth! (Twisted visions of the future that skipped little details like that they had to retreat under the earth after betraying their own people!) Under her churches urging, many elves began to mistrust the other races, manipulating them and 'guiding' them to be less of a threat (and if this sometimes required them to sabotage human, dwarven, etc. efforts, to 'keep them in their place,' behind the scenes, so be it). And so Araushalnee was corrupted, by her own visions of a future where elvenkind had been driven underground, which had become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as she reached back through time to guide her trusting former self along this dark path. Corellon resisted his chosen people 'guiding' (and, by this point, all-but dominating) the other races, as it conflicted with his free-willed ethos and his less-developed sense of morality. But she had 'foreseen' this as well, and turned several of her children against him and those who stood with him. In the end, she succumbed fully to the demonic taint and became the Spider-Queen we know today, and Seldarine fought Seldarine, until it was clear that she was beaten and she sounded the retreat. Shevarash had fought on her side, and fought his mentor Solonor, being the only one of her children to choose to remain behind and not leave with her (along with Kiaransalee, Elistraee, Selvatarm and Vhaerun). As she pulled away, Corellon reached deep within her, pulling forth the last dying remnants of the goddess he had loved and giving those feeble embers of divinity a home within his own body, becoming a god not just of war and energy, but also of magic and craft, with even his features changing subtly, so that his children who remained behind saw not just their father, but also their mother, as they gazed upon him. So in my version, she tried to kill Corellon because she had been deceived into thinking that the elven peoples were doomed because of his weakness and unwillingness to subjugate the 'lesser races.' The only 'doom' that came upon the elven peoples was the doom that she was bringing about, and, fittingly, the only elves 'driven underground' where her followers, and all because of her actions, which she believed were to prevent such a fate. Then again, that's just the story told at temples in my game. In the next game-world over, Sehanine does the heavy lifting and Corellon's long-forgotten, his entire past having been edited away by her clergy.
Zanan 02-14-08, 12:19 PM	-Zanan does that sometimes. Nay ... always. I've always regarded the cosmologies of different settings as ... what did Gothic Dan say ... bottled. Especially since the new FR cosmology came up. You get namesakes and similarities, but not necessarily synonymous deities, realms and the like. Hence I am a bit hesitant to say that there was an "Araushnee" in the old Core Seldarine. The whole Araushnee/renaming scenario comes from the Realms and if you like to project / mirror that to the Core Lolth / Seldarine, no problem.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 12:35 PM	-See, Shemmy?
Shemeska the Marauder 02-14-08, 01:23 PM	-See, Shemmy? It's cute. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywink.gif
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 02:04 PM	It's cute. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywink.gif -It looks like your...Shemoticon has it's mouth sewed shut! :eek:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 02:10 PM	-I never liked the notion of a Fey creator race. That is, a race that all other Fey creatures spawned from. I don't care much for the idea, myself.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 02:37 PM	I don't care much for the idea, myself. -If the Realms were entirely self-contained, that'd work. But, the fact that they aren't (or weren't) messes up that entire notion.
ripvanwormer 02-15-08, 07:33 PM	Quite simple: Araushnee was the name of the FR goddess (a member of the FR Seldarine) whereas Kiaransalee was originally not a FR deity. Cannot point my fingers on it, but I would assume that she entered the Faerûnian pantheon pretty late - in the lorebooks that is 1996 - AFAIK with Evermeet and Demihuman Deities. So it is only conjecture to say that a) Araushnee belonged to the Core Seldarine and b ) even more so that Kiaransalee may have worshipped her. As it looks, it seem more likely that Kiaransalee did not worship anyone. Back then, even the Araushnee of the Realms may not have taken up steps to dispossess Corellon, or even was "evil". Lolth is called Araushnee in Races of the Wild, so yes, she belonged to the "core" Seldarine as well as the Forgotten Realms version. It is, I fully acknowledge, conjecture that Kiaransalee worshipped Araushnee or anyone. But it's canon that Kiaransalee knew of the Seldarine, and that Araushnee was a member of the Seldarine at the time Kiaransalee was a mortal. In my version of the story, Araushnee was not "evil" at the time, but as the spidery goddess of fate, she was dark and somewhat frightening.
Kiaransalee 02-16-08, 12:50 PM	Kiaransalee came from the world of Threnody and became a demigoddess before -30 000 DR (the War of the Seldarine and Lolth's fall). Seems to me she didn't worship anyone except herself.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:02 PM	But like Aphrodite's clergy saying she was born of the Sea foam when she was in fact the Daughter of Zeus and a Nymph, it can be hard to distinguish truth from history,legend,lore, and or "fact" This is a very misleading statement. There were conflicting myths of Aphrodite's origins, both of which had equal weight, and later on they distinguished the two origins with calling the seam foam one Aphrodite Urania (of Uranus, whose castrated bits the sea foam formed), representing more transcendental beauty. It's similar to how we have the cupid Eros, and the original primal force of attraction Eros. Both the primal Eros and Aphrodite Urania enter the picture in Hesiod's Theogony, from our records, but surely there were folktales behind these origins. That being said: I love this thread. The Seldarine themselves is one of the prime reason I love the Tel'Quessir. And I've always been a fan of the Seldarine being linked to the Vana.
ripvanwormer 02-16-08, 02:04 PM	Kiaransalee came from the world of Threnody and became a demigoddess before -30 000 DR (the War of the Seldarine and Lolth's fall). Seems to me she didn't worship anyone except herself. That could be. All we know for sure is that she fled to the Abyss to escape the wrath of the Seldarine. That suggests she at least respected their power, even if she didn't worship any of them. I agree that if she ever worshipped them, it was likely by the time she destroyed her planet she did so no longer (and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise - in my story, she attacked Araushnee the one time they met in person). Anything else is speculation. There's no reason to assume she was faithless all her life, though. If she grew up as an elf in a culture that knew of the Seldarine, as she did, it seems likely that she was taught to worship them. I decided that for my purposes the patron of her house was Araushnee, who seemed appropriate considering how closely Kiaransalee's banishment by her husband the king mirrors Corellon's later banishment of Araushnee/Lolth.
Zanan 02-16-08, 04:25 PM	Lolth is called Araushnee in Races of the Wild, so yes, she belonged to the "core" Seldarine as well as the Forgotten Realms version. So they actually imparted FR lore into Core lore with that book. Neat! Did not know that ... which irks me, of course ... and thus stand corrected. (Won't discusss it again before ... say ... Wednesday. Nightshifts and all take their toll.)
GothicDan 02-16-08, 04:27 PM	It sort of deprecates their decision to separate the cosmologies, if you ask me. I didn't like it in the first place, but the only worse thing than doing something bad, is doing it poorly.
ripvanwormer 02-16-08, 09:36 PM	It sort of deprecates their decision to separate the cosmologies, if you ask me. I didn't like it in the first place, but the only worse thing than doing something bad, is doing it poorly. I'm actually happy that the separation isn't strict. But although the name "Araushnee" was first introduced by Ed Greenwood in The Drow of the Underdark (1991), the idea that Lolth was originally a goddess of the Seldarine first appeared in "In the Frost and Snow" in Dragon #155 (1990), which was set in Greyhawk. Her pre-banishment name was given as Megwandir there, which later appeared along with Araushnee as one of her aliases in Demihuman Deities (1998), a book set firmly in the Great Wheel cosmology. Planes of Chaos (1994) and On Hallowed Ground (1996) also mentioned that Lolth was part of the Seldarine at one point, although neither source gave her any name other than Lolth, and the idea that she was once Corellon's consort didn't come until later, in Demihuman Deities and Evermeet: Island of the Elves (1999). The Races of the Wild version of the story is similar to the Forgotten Realms version in that it says an elven goddess called Araushnee was once the consort of Corellon Larethian. However, it differs by saying that the two deities had a daughter called Vandria Gilmadrith, a goddess of war who resembles neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun. Neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun are mentioned. So it's not exactly the same as the Realmslore. The rest of the myth is pretty much the same - Araushnee secretly aids Gruumsh in his battle with Corellon, is cast out and renames herself Lolth. Malar isn't mentioned, of course, nor is the word "anti-Seldarine" used. It's not really incompatible with the Realms version - I mean, it's possible that they had three children, not two - but whether the story blurs the lines between Reams and core or shows more clearly the point at which they separate is a matter of opinion.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-16-08, 10:14 PM	So they actually imparted FR lore into Core lore with that book. Neat! The core "Drow of the Underdark" [3.5], uses the Araushnee = Lolth origin legend as well.
The Ubbergeek 02-17-08, 12:00 AM	Look like GH stole from FR! :D
Zanan 02-17-08, 04:33 AM	Look like GH stole from FR! :D Of course they did! That will add fuel to e.g. Shem's campaign with regard to one cosmology for all settings (more or less like it was in AD&D). Hm ... what shall I say now ... how about: "Lazy designers! Couldn't make up your Core Lore and stealing good old FR stuff without thinking of the sleepless nights that fickle FRers and Core'ers will face now!" ( ;) )
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 09:00 AM	But although the name "Araushnee" was first introduced by Ed Greenwood in The Drow of the Underdark (1991), the idea that Lolth was originally a goddess of the Seldarine first appeared in "In the Frost and Snow" in Dragon #155 (1990), which was set in Greyhawk. Her pre-banishment name was given as Megwandir there, which later appeared along with Araushnee as one of her aliases in Demihuman Deities (1998), a book set firmly in the Great Wheel cosmology. -Interesting. It's been mentioned at a reply at Candlekeep that, in the Realms, Megwandir is the name that Lolth appropriated from a Snow (possible Snow Elf) deity.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 11:51 AM	I still think any attempts for FR people to even try to claim Lolth/Araushnee as specifically Realmsian (Zanan! ;)) are utterly ludicrous. I think Rip gave ample suggestive facts why this would be so.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 12:02 PM	-That's the kind of stuff that happens when you have a multispheric cosmology that includes every setting, and then doesn't, and then does, but only kinda, sorta...:yuck:
GothicDan 02-17-08, 12:05 PM	You know, with how they're trying to go from High Fantasy to a more Contemporary Fantasy feel, you'd think they'd be going from Tolkien to Elric. The whole cosmology Sea is very Elric... But I doubt they'll pick up on the Omniverse again.
ripvanwormer 02-17-08, 02:29 PM	-Interesting. It's been mentioned at a reply at Candlekeep that, in the Realms, Megwandir is the name that Lolth appropriated from a Snow (possible Snow Elf) deity. Here's the original article (http://www.mvn.net/jimnellen/greyhawk/Frost/snowelves.htm). Megwandir was the lover of the snow elf god Tarsellis Meunniduin, seducing him and later betraying the Seldarine. The same myth was retold in On Hallowed Ground and Demihuman Deities, but with Fenmarel Mestarine replacing Tarsellis Meunniduin and Lolth/Araushnee in Lolth/Megwandir's part (and given as an explanation for Fenmarel's self-exile).
Soltares 02-18-08, 03:19 PM	And, personally, I've been liking the idea of Labelas being the oldest member of the Seldarine. Remember that pantheon heads are often NOT the oldest member of their particular divine family. I wrote up Labelas as being Correlon's brother, and perhaps even older brother, but being too detached and concerned with his own interests to take the job of big kahuna. (So he'd end up being like Poseidon and Hades, technically equal to Zeus, but not really, or Vili and Ve, technically Odin's peers, but staying out of the way.) Deep Sashelas (more obviously a 'Poseidon' to Correlon's 'Zeus') may also be a 'brother' of Correllon. As for the oldest god of the Seldarine, in my cosmology, that was Aerdrie Faenya, who was a goddess to the avian creator race back when elves were still a gleam in Corellon's eye. Her original worshippers have fallen far, and she's the 'crazy aunt' of the Seldarine, now worshipped by more elves and giant eagles than aarakocra.
Zanan 02-19-08, 04:23 AM	I still think any attempts for FR people to even try to claim Lolth/Araushnee as specifically Realmsian (Zanan! ;)) are utterly ludicrous. I think Rip gave ample suggestive facts why this would be so. Over at Candlekeep, I've just send Rino for some punishment to the Loviatar temple and I have absolutely no problem sending you too. Obviously, there are only females swinging the scourges there today :smirk: It is about origin of the name, of course. If the designers would not retcon themselves time and again, even after creating a seperate FR cosmology for 3E, we would not face such debates. But we are all only humans, so essentially bound to make mistakes. Then again, only you are! :D
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:24 AM	Your wicked magics cannot hold me, Yathrinshee. ;) Also: I like how Soltares thinks. Though I certainly wouldn't make Aerdrie the oldest... just a personal taste thing. Angharradh, maybe.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:43 AM	Over at Candlekeep, I've just send Rino for some punishment to the Loviatar temple and I have absolutely no problem sending you too. Obviously, there are only females swinging the scourges there today :smirk: -Hey, you don't send Rino for punishment. :waits:
Zanan 02-19-08, 10:03 AM	-Hey, you don't send Rino for punishment. :waits: No? If you behave, I'll send a band of goblin slaves into the swamp to clean that stony heady of yours. And now be quiet please, else I can't hear GD scream! :evillaugh
GothicDan 02-19-08, 10:19 AM	I told you that hanging underground all day would eventually cause schizophrenia, Zanan. :p
Alediran 02-19-08, 11:17 AM	*Cast Light of the Sun* Drow are blinded for a day with that spell :D
Zanan 02-19-08, 11:18 AM	I told you that hanging underground all day would eventually cause schizophrenia, Zanan. :p Matter factly, I nor Zanan have been underground lately. Maybe it is vice versa? Anyway, back to the topic ere a WizO swings the axes ... @ Alediran ... my SR beats that easily enough and Cloak of Dark Power does the rest.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 11:23 AM	Yes. What was the topic, again?
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 11:38 AM	No? If you behave, I'll send a band of goblin slaves into the swamp to clean that stony heady of yours. And now be quiet please, else I can't hear GD scream! :evillaugh :nonono: -Believe whatever delusions you want...(They say Kiaransaleeans are crazy, but geeze, this is overkill!)
Alediran 02-19-08, 12:42 PM	Matter factly, I nor Zanan have been underground lately. Maybe it is vice versa? Anyway, back to the topic ere a WizO swings the axes ... @ Alediran ... my SR beats that easily enough and Cloak of Dark Power does the rest. It's just an Epic level spell that creates light (Conjuration) with the power of the sun, it doesn't directly affects any target, therefore SR doesn't applies and there aren't yet counters to it.
Zanan 02-19-08, 01:55 PM	:nonono: -Believe whatever delusions you want...(They say Kiaransaleeans are crazy, but geeze, this is overkill!) Heck, you haven't even seen me in full swing ;) Alediran ... Epic you say? :D Can we revert to the topic?!
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 02:01 PM	Heck, you haven't even seen me in full swing ;) -Your multiple personalities have multiple personalities? Talk about exponential growth. :) Can we revert to the topic?! -We are. Zanan is a Drow, and the Drow are the subjects of this topic, by way of being connected to Lolth.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 02:55 PM	I most heartily concur.
Zanan 02-19-08, 05:10 PM	Lord Karsus Your multiple personalities have multiple personalities? Talk about exponential growth. Did you know that my hard-fought-for* avatar pic actually represents another of my personalities? (Of course you did, since Zanan would not hang about with spiders that much.) Now, did anything came of this Megwandir discussion? *Back in the good old WizO_Big Sister days, timeline contest ... ach well, those were the days.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 05:35 PM	Did you know that my hard-fought-for* avatar pic actually represents another of my personalities? (Of course you did, since Zanan would not hang about with spiders that much.) -I thought that was Zanan, but okay... Now, did anything came of this Megwandir discussion? -Just what Rip posted. *Back in the good old WizO_Big Sister days, timeline contest ... ach well, those were the days. -All us 'old school' people miss her.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-19-08, 09:04 PM	-Hey, you don't send Rino for punishment. :waits: Awww...Hehe, I'm all right.;) Punishment doesn't seem to affect my bad behavior, anyway.
ikki 02-20-08, 05:04 PM	why did lolth try to kill her daddy? Well.. isnt this PRECISELY what her religion has been preaching for these last 10.000 years or so, kill your elders to advance yourself in life.. Asking a WHY, reveals a shocking ignorance of the basic beliefs held by the drows under lolth.. Otoh, there are plenty of "gurus" that merely give advice, but would never live as they teach. Like those save the earth enviournmentals for one.. or human rights activists.
The Ubbergeek 02-20-08, 05:27 PM	why did lolth try to kill her daddy? Well.. isnt this PRECISELY what her religion has been preaching for these last 10.000 years or so, kill your elders to advance yourself in life.. Asking a WHY, reveals a shocking ignorance of the basic beliefs held by the drows under lolth.. Otoh, there are plenty of "gurus" that merely give advice, but would never live as they teach. Like those save the earth enviournmentals for one.. or human rights activists. Bravo for the inadequate, false and biaised political comment.
Kenzuki 02-20-08, 08:59 PM	I'm surprised the drow haven't wiped themselves off the planet by now.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 10:25 PM	Well, Zanan will be happy to tell you that the bulk of Drow society isn't nearly as CE-ish as represented in the higher-ranking Nobles, as depicted in certain novels. And we won't even talk about the depictions in the (new) Drow of the Underdark. Gah. As much as I don't like Drow, personally, that was just a travesty.
ripvanwormer 02-20-08, 11:04 PM	Also: I like how Soltares thinks. Though I certainly wouldn't make Aerdrie the oldest... just a personal taste thing. I liked Soltares' myth, too. I like his idea of Aerdrie Faenya being originally a member of the Aeree pantheon as well.
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 11:00 AM	Bravo for the inadequate, false and biaised political comment. -Of course, ikki said 'plenty', not 'all'. And, 'plenty' is, pun intended, 'plenty true'. I'm surprised the drow haven't wiped themselves off the planet by now. -The same reason we Humans haven't wiped outselves out, given our propensity for mass, large-scale violence.
GothicDan 02-21-08, 11:18 AM	I like his idea of Aerdrie Faenya being originally a member of the Aeree pantheon as well. Granted, I do like that, too. And Elaine's novel does hint at the Seldarine arising from "even older Gods." Perhaps Corellon as Fey, Aerdrie as Aeree, Sashelas as Batrachaii...?
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 11:22 AM	Perhaps Corellon as Fey, Aerdrie as Aeree, Sashelas as Batrachaii...? -I don't like that notion because that implies that they originated from Realmspace, rather than appeared as interlopers at a later time.
GothicDan 02-21-08, 11:23 AM	Why would you say that? I always used to play around with the idea that they arose from the Norse pantheon, which is very multispheric!
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 11:31 AM	Why would you say that? -The Fey (The Creator Race version), the Batrachi, the Aeree, and so on, are, for all intents and purposes, Abeir-Toril specific. We have no reason to believe that any of these races existed elsewhere. Thus, the Seldarine, if all that were true, would have arisen in Realmspace, and wouldn't be interlopers. They'd be native deities, which we know they aren't. I always used to play around with the idea that they arose from the Norse pantheon, which is very multispheric! -That's fine, because the Norse Pantheon is...'based' on Earth, not Abeir-Toril, where the Creator Races' pantheons' would be based on. Get what I mean?
Soltares 02-21-08, 12:13 PM	Why would you say that? I always used to play around with the idea that they arose from the Norse pantheon, which is very multispheric! Ah, but who corresponds to what in the Norse pantheon? Hanali, who always seemed a trifle dull to me, would be really neat with an infusion of Freya. And does that mean that Corellon, the bright-haired sky-god of the pantheon, is Thor, and his one-eyed father, former ruler of the gods, is... Gruumsh? Wouldn't *that* be a twist and a half, the Seldarine and the Orcish pantheon being a house divided, as if the Aesir split from the Vanir and became more like brutish surly Fomori to the fair Elven Tuathe De... As for the original question; Why did Araushalnee/Lolth try to kill Corellon? Because he was hogging the covers again.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 12:44 PM	I think Hanali is fine as she is.:)
ripvanwormer 02-21-08, 12:48 PM	And does that mean that Corellon, the bright-haired sky-god of the pantheon, is Thor, and his one-eyed father, former ruler of the gods, is... Gruumsh? Well, Labelas Enoreth has only one eye as well. But I think Dan's theory is that they were the children of the Vanir rather than the Aesir. The Vanir are more closely associated with elves in Norse myth, after all. As far as the creator races go, I think at least some of them might well be multi-spheric.
The Ubbergeek 02-21-08, 01:44 PM	-The Fey (The Creator Race version), the Batrachi, the Aeree, and so on, are, for all intents and purposes, Abeir-Toril specific. We have no reason to believe that any of these races existed elsewhere. Somes postulate that the Feys moved to another plane, and the Batrachi may have became Slaads, but that's not quite along what you said. And we won't even talk about the depictions in the (new) Drow of the Underdark. Gah. This is based more on Greyhawk, and surprisingly close to what the greyhawkians do (apparently). They are even more evil sons of Meech there. The Ghers tend to find the FR drow too... light. (From what I have seen)
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 02:03 PM	Somes postulate that the Feys moved to another plane, and the Batrachi may have became Slaads, but that's not quite along what you said. -It is canon that some Batrachi became Slaadi, I believe, but no, that isn't exactly the road I was heading down. -While I like the setting, I think hypothesizing that deities such as the Seldarine first arose in Realmspace is placing undue focus on the setting, if you know what I mean. It is only one place in an infinite multiverse, and I am against having 'too much' stuff happening because of one little speck of dust in the entire multiverse.
GothicDan 02-21-08, 03:43 PM	I definitely agree that my Seldarine would be more linked with the Vanir. Though the more war-like Aesir being Orcs IS interesting... And personally, I would have made the Creator Races - or perhaps the PROTO-Creator-Races - multispheric. The legends of non-mammalian/ape-like 'original species' isn't an idea specific to Faerun.
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 04:12 PM	And personally, I would have made the Creator Races - or perhaps the PROTO-Creator-Races - multispheric. The legends of non-mammalian/ape-like 'original species' isn't an idea specific to Faerun. -See, though, they're not. The closest thing we've got to a multispheric 'Creator Race' is the Juna, though, I think there were stories of a civilization even older than the Juna...Either way, though, the Juna certainly don't have anything to do with the Seldarine.
ripvanwormer 02-21-08, 04:28 PM	I'm not so sure. Monster Mythology talks about civilized ancestors of the bullywugs, for example, so I assume that applies to every world where Ramenos is known. I don't think the existence of the Juno precludes the existence of other multispheric creator races. The Juno could have seeded the aeree, batrachians, and sarrukh on a number of worlds. I say it's a judgment call. There's no official information on whether or not there might have been sarrukh or aeree on Oerth or Earth or Eberron, so it's up to the individual DM whether or not they want to put them there. Presuming that the aeree are unique to Toril, and Aerdrie Faenya was a goddess of the aeree, then yes, that means that Aerdrie Faenya - like Shevarash - is a member of the Seldarine who was originally native to Toril, like Ye'Cind is a member of the Seldarine who was originally native to Oerth. If you start with other assumptions, you might end up with other conclusions.
GothicDan 02-21-08, 07:06 PM	-See, though, they're not. The closest thing we've got to a multispheric 'Creator Race' is the Juna, though, I think there were stories of a civilization even older than the Juna...Either way, though, the Juna certainly don't have anything to do with the Seldarine. Well, for example, do you really think that the Fey Creator Race of Abeir-Toril were the only/first Fey Lords in the Multiverse? I sure don't! We have inferences of entirely different planar setups and different Celestials and Fiends than those of the current arrangement. We also have hints of a multi-Crystal Sphere spanning Illithid Empire... And we have intelligent reptilian, amphibian, avian, etc. 'people' outside of Abeir-Toril. The scientist in me that so readily accepts evolution isn't about to dismiss all of the past potential for cross-pollination of multiple worlds.
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 07:44 PM	Well, for example, do you really think that the Fey Creator Race of Abeir-Toril were the only/first Fey Lords in the Multiverse? I sure don't! -If you consider the Creator Race Fey one and the same as 'Fey' creatures, no. I, however, do not- which is why I dislike the idea of a 'Fey' Creator Race that the Fey of Abeir-Toril are relatives of. -And, as I said before, the canon of no other settings mentions Batrachi, Aeree, Sarrukh, and so on- the Forgotten Realms creator races as being specifically there, or having the same 'ancient progenator' role as they have in Realmspace.
GothicDan 02-21-08, 10:02 PM	They don't mention them by name, no. I'm just giving the ideas names that happen to be the same as those of Abeir-Toril. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 10:52 PM	They don't mention them by name, no. I'm just giving the ideas names that happen to be the same as those of Abeir-Toril. ;) -Of course, the fact that other settings also have their own particular explanations for different creatures throws a wrench in things.
Soltares 02-22-08, 10:24 AM	I say it's a judgment call. There's no official information on whether or not there might have been sarrukh or aeree on Oerth or Earth or Eberron, so it's up to the individual DM whether or not they want to put them there. There have been references to Aarakocra on Oerth, but there's never been much done with them, nor with the Seldarine of Oerth, so I have no idea if Oerth-Aerdrie has any connection to the Oerth-Aarakocra. I just like the idea of Aerdrie (and Jergal) being prehuman, and pre-elven, for that matter, leftovers from pantheons so old that nobody remembers them. Aerdrie, given her nature, might remember little of those days, or might daydream about them constantly. Possibly both. Jergal might remember those days much more precisely, and be quite comfortable with them being just that, memories. Or perhaps not. Maybe he's just biding his time, and awaits a future when the wheel has turned yet again, and his human / elven / dwarven gods that are now his superiors are as lost and forgotten as every other god he's ever known, while he remains.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 10:37 AM	-Of course, the fact that other settings also have their own particular explanations for different creatures throws a wrench in things. But do they?
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:09 PM	But do they? -If the Oearth Kobolds were created one way, and Torillian Kobolds were created another way, yes.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 01:20 PM	But that's the point I'm making. A lot of the other hints/references don't have explicitly detailed backgrounds.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:22 PM	But that's the point I'm making. A lot of the other hints/references don't have explicitly detailed backgrounds. -Sure. Nothing explicitly says that Elves do not lay eggs. Now, do they? No. Nothing explicitly mentions the Torillian Creator Races 'expanding' to other planets, anything to that effect. Is it possible? Sure. Do we really have evidence to support it? No, not really.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 01:26 PM	My point is, though, that there are similar hints about proto-beings across the multiverse. In this case, the "it also doesn't say that Elves lay eggs.." argument doesn't work, in my opinion, because there ARE these similar mythological suggestions across the multiverse. And, granted, who's to say that the Creator Races really WERE native to Abeir-Toril? PS: Mind you, I'd probably tweak little bits of canon to make this idea work. I am aware I'm playing the role of Markus, here. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:39 PM	And, granted, who's to say that the Creator Races really WERE native to Abeir-Toril? -Nothing specifically says that they aren't native, and what little information we have, in my eyes, points to the idea that they are native. PS: Mind you, I'd probably tweak little bits of canon to make this idea work. I am aware I'm playing the role of Markus, here. ;) -See, there you go. Mind you, I have no problem with that, but, in an 'academic' debate like this...
GothicDan 02-22-08, 01:42 PM	-Nothing specifically says that they aren't native, and what little information we have, in my eyes, points to the idea that they are native. See, I like the Creator Races. I just don't accept the native part, because then I'd want one of two things: A) Divine creation myths or B) Evolutionary lines. But, you know, I go overboard with my own settings.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:46 PM	See, I like the Creator Races. I just don't accept the native part, because then I'd want one of two things: A) Divine creation myths or B) Evolutionary lines. -While I'm sure they could exist, we shouldn't be privy to this information, as it is ancient, somewhat unrecorded history.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 01:49 PM	I'd totally want to be privy to it. There's only a very few rare things that I don't like having more information about. One of them, is the plots of Shar - but I think that they should be up to the DM to plan and such, not WotC. I mean, we have mythological origins for Elves, Dwarves, etc., so why not Aeree or Sarrukh?
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:51 PM	I mean, we have mythological origins for Elves, Dwarves, etc., so why not Aeree or Sarrukh? -Because they don't exist anymore (except for one or two special cases). The Ancient Egyptians don't exist anymore, as they did 5000+ years ago. There are plenty of parts of their culture that we don't know- their spoken language, for example. Now, multiply this by a large factor, as the Creator Races existed 25,000+ years ago, in game terms.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 02:07 PM	Uh. We do know their spoken language. That's basically what hieratic was a reflection of. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure. And, we have multiple examples of their established pantheons intact. There are 3 big theogonies, and we have many, many cases of the anthropogonies (stories of mankind) across ancient cultures. I'm not asking for hard facts, here. :) Note, of course, that I'm rapidly becoming more and more focused on Comparative Mythology... So having too much knowledge about such things in real life could make me a bit biased.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 02:22 PM	Uh. We do know their spoken language. That's basically what hieratic was a reflection of. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure. -If it wasn't Egyptian, it was another Mesopotamian-in-that-area culture. I recall my sister telling me about this fact. And, we have multiple examples of their established pantheons intact. There are 3 big theogonies, and we have many, many cases of the anthropogonies (stories of mankind) across ancient cultures. -Now, go back 25,000+ years. What do we have now?
GothicDan 02-22-08, 05:08 PM	Mesopotamia was an entirely different area than Egypt, LK. Your words on this fact lose prestige with every sentence you say. *eyes.* 25,000 years ago? Well, we didn't even have language or writing. So, uh, you can't compare that to Creator Races, who did. Jericho's been the longest settled area known, since about 6,000 BCE I think, and language and writing wouldn't have developed too long before that.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 05:19 PM	Mesopotamia was an entirely different area than Egypt, LK. Your words on this fact lose prestige with every sentence you say. *eyes.* -They're next door neighbors. Iraq is...right, the map I have doesn't have a scale, but it's just one Jordan away from Egypt. And, Jordan is not a very large kingdom. 25,000 years ago? Well, we didn't even have language or writing. So, uh, you can't compare that to Creator Races, who did. Jericho's been the longest settled area known, since about 6,000 BCE I think, and language and writing wouldn't have developed too long before that. -Point is, we don't know a lot (as compared to some more modern day societies) about many of the older civilizations. They had language, they had writing, they had technology, they had civilization. This is pushing 8,000 years, about. Why should information on the Creator Races, who existed even longer ago, be concrete, and availible?
GothicDan 02-22-08, 05:23 PM	Because they had societies as developed as the modern ones of Faerun?
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 06:04 PM	Because they had societies as developed as the modern ones of Faerun? -Civilizations of past day often had highly complex societies, like we have, and yet, information on them is often spotty. And, no matter how complex, the passage of time has a way of erasing these things.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 09:02 PM	I'm referring more to communication and technology. Their magic, if anything, was MORE powerful than it is now. The fact that the Nether Scrolls have survived this long is evidence of this. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying there's a heck of a lot of freedom here, because so little about the distant past is known.
DoveArrow 03-10-08, 01:12 PM	Lord Karsus and GothicDan: A better example of a culture that we know very little about, but which existed a relatively short time ago are the Etruscans. We know next to nothing about their spoken language, or written language for that matter, and what little we know about their culture either comes from accounts laid down by later historians, such as Herodotus, or from art pieces found in Etruscan tombs. Part of the reason that we know so little about the Etruscans is that much of the archaeological record has been destroyed by people plundering the ancient, Etruscan tombs and ruins for treasure. In fact, a quite common outing for the people of France was to picnic near the ancient Etruscan ruins, and to go searching for treasures amongst the tombs; destroying pottery, writings, and anything else that wasn't considered 'valuable.' Considering the fact that plundering ancient ruins is such a major component of adventuring, and that adventurers often care little about anything that isn't magical or worth selling, it seems logical to conclude that they may have engaged in similar forms of vandalism, thus forever destroying any records that might otherwise have shed light on the ancient cultures whose ruins they've pilfered.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 05:45 PM	-Leave it to the French.
DoveArrow 03-11-08, 05:19 PM	Exactly.
GothicDan 03-12-08, 10:00 AM	Actually, we do know the Etruscan language. :) It's a somewhat recent discovery, but it's there. We've also found segments of it among the Cyclades, which hint very strongly that they were indeed imports from Asia Minor. We also know quite a bit of Etruscan culture and religion from Rome. We know that there was an Etruscan dynasty in early Rome, if not a direct imperial rulership, based on the architecture of some of the early temples. We've also found the Bronze Liver, which labels specifically which parts of the liver were used for what things in divination. Er, yeah. *Shifty eyes.* Another specialty of mine: the Etruscans/Etrurians/Tyrrhenians. That being said: no comparison of real life civilizations are analogs to those of Faerun because no real life civilizations have had magic, and from what we've seen the Creator Races had it in spades.
Shiftkitty 03-12-08, 03:09 PM	I now find myself wondering if you cringed or snickered at the module that had a gynosphinx named "Etrusca" in it. I don't remember off the top of my head what module it was, maybe White Plume Mountain. I just remember she was described as a "very unhappy" gynosphinx. One of the players was very good with riddles, so his PC wound up befriending Etrusca (and amusing everyone else at the table). By dungeon's end, the party found a way to get her out of her obligation and she followed them home. Now one of the PCs has a little cottage outside of town guarded by a gynosphinx.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 03:23 PM	That being said: no comparison of real life civilizations are analogs to those of Faerun because no real life civilizations have had magic, and from what we've seen the Creator Races had it in spades. -We have to draw comparisons to debate somehow. I now find myself wondering if you cringed or snickered at the module that had a gynosphinx named "Etrusca" in it. -I snicker whenever I hear 'gynosphinx'.
DoveArrow 03-12-08, 05:26 PM	Actually, we do know the Etruscan language. :) It's a somewhat recent discovery, but it's there. We've also found segments of it among the Cyclades, which hint very strongly that they were indeed imports from Asia Minor. To my knowledge, the only thing that we have are samples of the Etruscan language written on the wrappings of a mummy, and some other major find, but I can't remember what the second one was. I don't think anyone has actually translated the language, though. We also know quite a bit of Etruscan culture and religion from Rome. We know that there was an Etruscan dynasty in early Rome, if not a direct imperial rulership, based on the architecture of some of the early temples. We've also found the Bronze Liver, which labels specifically which parts of the liver were used for what things in divination. I said we know very little about them. I didn't say we know nothing about them at all. And even though we know quite a bit about them, it doesn't mean that we don't understand a heck of a lot more. For example, what caused the shift from depicting the dead as being much as they were in life, to depicting them as being tortured in the afterlife by the demon god Xaru? To my knowledge, nobody really knows. Er, yeah. *Shifty eyes.* Another specialty of mine: the Etruscans/Etrurians/Tyrrhenians. I love the Etruscans. The whole idea that they built massive necropolises (necropoli?) to house the dead absolutely fascinates me. That being said: no comparison of real life civilizations are analogs to those of Faerun because no real life civilizations have had magic, and from what we've seen the Creator Races had it in spades. True. However, my point is that looting has made it very difficult for historians to piece together what has happened in our own historical past. Given that it's such a major component of D&D, I think Lord Karsus's point is valid, in that a lot of information about the ancient empires in Forgotten Realms might forever be lost to history, thanks largely in part to the plundering of ancient ruins by adventurers.
Charles Phipps 03-12-08, 06:01 PM	Well then here's an easier response. No one cares. The best thing to do in any RPG is burn the books. Call of Cthulhu has taught me that Ancient=Evil. Burn all of their cultural artifacts, melt down any antiques, and make sure any language that survives of that time is destroyed. Then break down everything so it can't be used to summon anything. Oh, if you find some scattered primitive survivors...kill them.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 06:44 PM	-That's a terribly "neanderthalic" thing to do. I made up my own word just for the occasion.
Stigger 03-12-08, 07:24 PM	Just ignore Charles, he's just trying to lull us into a sense of complacency by making sure that if one of the elder evil things does survive, then no one has any means of researching a way to stop it... his evil and impurity is obvious. ;) :D
Khaelieth 03-13-08, 06:30 PM	-That's a terribly "neanderthalic" thing to do. I made up my own word just for the occasion. Nah, with Phipps here! My adventurers behead any bodies they find/make after a zombie incident and baddies feigning death. Also, they're paranoid about going to sleep after an incident which involved sleeping PC's and animated beds. Heh. Any girl that comes onto them's also asking for a real good bashing, after their last romances turned out to be a doppelganger and one a werewolf. This has led to this motto: When in doubt, set fire to it.
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 06:32 PM	My adventurers behead any bodies they find/make after a zombie incident and baddies feigning death. Also, they're paranoid about going to sleep after an incident which involved sleeping PC's and animated beds. Heh. Any girl that comes onto them's also asking for a real good bashing, after their last romances turned out to be a doppelganger and one a werewolf. -That must make for an exceptionally dreary life. This has led to this motto: When in doubt, set fire to it. -What happens when they have self-doubts?
Khaelieth 03-13-08, 06:34 PM	-That must make for an exceptionally dreary life. -What happens when they have self-doubts? You've not played Ravenloft, i take it?=) They don't have time for self-doubt; there's red clad zombies crawling down the chimney shouting ho ho ho!
DoveArrow 03-13-08, 06:35 PM	Nah, with Phipps here! My adventurers behead any bodies they find/make after a zombie incident and baddies feigning death. Also, they're paranoid about going to sleep after an incident which involved sleeping PC's and animated beds. Heh. Any girl that comes onto them's also asking for a real good bashing, after their last romances turned out to be a doppelganger and one a werewolf. This has led to this motto: When in doubt, set fire to it. That's when you have the heads reanimate and chase the PCs around, shooting bolts of fire from their eyes. Oh precious topic, where have you gone? The rails of the thread are so far behind us now. :P
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 06:41 PM	You've not played Ravenloft, i take it?=) -No, though I know of it, and am aware of the general principles and personas. They don't have time for self-doubt; there's red clad zombies crawling down the chimney shouting ho ho ho! -The Communists are coming?
Khaelieth 03-13-08, 06:51 PM	-No, though I know of it, and am aware of the general principles and personas. -The Communists are coming? i reckon this thread's mangled beyond recognition now.
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 06:56 PM	i reckon this thread's mangled beyond recognition now. -See? The Communists ruin everything... -Hey, Elven society is often communistic. Drow society isn't...Back on topic, sort of.
Khaelieth 03-13-08, 06:59 PM	-See? The Communists ruin everything... -Hey, Elven society is often communistic. Drow society isn't...Back on topic, sort of. Heh, yeah, drow society's what happens when you let women rule. Lads get along just fine, if there's any bother, set us down in an irish pub and we'll get drunk and everything'll be better! But... How do you reckon the Descent mirrored Lolth's banishment?
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 07:01 PM	How do you reckon the Descent mirrored Lolth's banishment? -Well, both Lolth and the Drow went 'down'. With Lolth, it was to the Abyss, and with the Drow, it was to the Underdark.
Khaelieth 03-13-08, 07:05 PM	-Well, both Lolth and the Drow went 'down'. With Lolth, it was to the Abyss, and with the Drow, it was to the Underdark. And both got cursed, yeah, but when did Eilistraee, Lolth etc turn black? Knew they were dark, but would the High Magic affect someone not really a drow?
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 07:09 PM	And both got cursed, yeah, but when did Eilistraee, Lolth etc turn black? Knew they were dark, but would the High Magic affect someone not really a drow? -Deities don't have physical bodies or anything. They are just..."balls of divine energy". When the Dark Elves became Drow, and became onyx black, rather than brown, black, dusky, and so on, Eilistraee, Lolth, and Vhaeraun probably altered their appearances to better associate with their followers. Or, perhaps the Drow themselves changed the physical attributes of the deities, as they projected what they looked like to them? Like the 'White, blonde hair, blue eyed Jesus'.
Stigger 03-14-08, 08:06 AM	I'd go along with the deities changing their appearances for the sake of their followers... personally I always liked the idea of deities looking different to each individual who looked upon them. But I get off on subjective reality things... :D
Alediran 03-14-08, 08:34 AM	It has a precedent, during the Harpers At Twilight last battle in the Weeping War they were saved by an avatar of Mystra that looked like a Human Woman to Humans and an Elven Woman to Elves.
MarkusTay63 03-16-08, 02:48 AM	Good Point - and when Shar spoke in the Fane of Shadows, each person there heard her in their native togue (Fleet heard Luiren, Riven Amnian, etc...) So we have yet another precedent. It seems MR' Stigger's interpretation is right on the money. :) You see (and hear) what you expect to see.
Zanan 03-16-08, 05:57 AM	-See? The Communists ruin everything... -Hey, Elven society is often communistic. Drow society isn't...Back on topic, sort of. What sorts of politics do they teach over there? :nonono:
buzzard 03-16-08, 10:34 AM	Good Point - and when Shar spoke in the Fane of Shadows, each person there heard her in their native togue (Fleet heard Luiren, Riven Amnian, etc...) That's an actual ability that deities have in 3.x edition (understand, read and speak all languages), so instead of each one "perceiving" things in their own image, Shar could have been speaking in all those different languages.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 07:23 AM	What sorts of politics do they teach over there? :nonono: -From the former East Germany, I take it? ;) -Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic.
Alediran 03-17-08, 08:18 AM	-Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic. It fails because humans with their flaws don't allow them to succeede. Elves don't have the same kind of flaws that humans have and that's what allow them to live in a communistic style of life.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 08:36 AM	It fails because humans with their flaws don't allow them to succeede. -It fails because it (Communism) is an economic system, and not a political system. Notice how Elven communities, with varying degrees of communism, have governmental styles seperate from their economic system? Some have Coronals, or Kings/Queens. Others have elders, or councils of elders. As a political and economic system, communism is not viable.
Alediran 03-17-08, 09:48 AM	-It fails because it (Communism) is an economic system, and not a political system. Notice how Elven communities, with varying degrees of communism, have governmental styles seperate from their economic system? Some have Coronals, or Kings/Queens. Others have elders, or councils of elders. As a political and economic system, communism is not viable. Unless is being run by machines that do everyting that is required.
Zanan 03-17-08, 10:02 AM	-From the former East Germany, I take it? ;) -Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic. Fully 20 years and no, Communism as a governmental system does not fail. The versions it has appeared in so far have failed - not least due to the circumstances and the environment. Of course, capitalism as a system tends to fail from time to time too, as Nazi Germany and some others proved / proof. But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience. reports. Obviously, it depends on what sort of Elven communities you speak of. Some managed to survived (in setting, of course) a few thousand years, something which only a handful of real world "systems" can lay claim to.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 04:46 PM	Fully 20 years and no, Communism as a governmental system does not fail. -Yes, yes it does. Name a Communist state that thrived under communism. As a political system, communism cannot, and does not, work. As a economic system, coupled with another political system, communism can work, as intended. Obviously, it depends on what sort of Elven communities you speak of. -The majority of Wood Elven settlements are communistic, or, at least, communalistic. Pure Sun and Moon Elven societies are the least communal, but this is because most Sun and Moon Elves settlements become saturated with N'Tel'Quessir, if not literally and physically, then idealistically, via trade. And, as stated, Drow societies are most commonly market-based economies, due to the faction wars, and trade.
Zanan 03-17-08, 06:22 PM	LK ... I can take a 20 on my Will saves, you know?
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 06:34 PM	LK ... I can take a 20 on my Will saves, you know? -Excellent. I get all those pseudodivine bonuses, so I hear you.
Zanan 03-17-08, 06:39 PM	-Excellent. I get all those pseudodivine bonuses, so I hear you. And all you hear (read) is ... But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports. But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports. But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports. But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports. . . .
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 06:50 PM	-Yes, and I ignored that. Conversations drift in and around the central topic, morph and become something completely different, and so on. That's life. Get used to it.
Zanan 03-18-08, 05:57 AM	-Yes, and I ignored that. Conversations drift in and around the central topic, morph and become something completely different, and so on. That's life. Get used to it. Read the other 50% of the sentences.:cool: NB: And mind the word "currently".
Khaelieth 03-18-08, 09:47 AM	-Yes, yes it does. Name a Communist state that thrived under communism. As a political system, communism cannot, and does not, work. As a economic system, coupled with another political system, communism can work, as intended. China, Cuba and Russia (though they failed later, when Stalin rose to power). But strayed too far! Make a new topic if you want to discuss communism and elves!
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 11:07 AM	China, Cuba and Russia (though they failed later, when Stalin rose to power). -China has only recently begun to thrive, and only in the most basic sense, after using a revisted form of Communisms with elements of capitalism in it. Cuba is anything but thriving. The common populace is still poor as ever, and have to deal with all of the Human Rights abuses. And, Russia is in the same boat. The common populace lived in poverty, waiting on bread lines and all for hours, and had to deal with all of those Human Rights problems. But strayed too far! Make a new topic if you want to discuss communism and elves! :rolleyes: -Do you know the poster 'Krevon', by any chance?
Khaelieth 03-18-08, 11:10 AM	-Do you know the poster 'Krevon', by any chance? Never heard of him. But i'm just gonna step away from this discussion now. *Exits left*
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 11:23 AM	Never heard of him. -Never mind, then.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 11:49 AM	Communism isn't cool. That's all I'll say on the matter.:)
Stigger 03-18-08, 03:02 PM	Communism is very cool... its the Marxism, Leninism, and Maoism that are crap. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-08, 03:54 PM	Russia (though they failed later, when Stalin rose to power). It had already failed by the 1918-1921 period, well before Stalin had solidified his power (and executed or exiled most of the other original Bolshevik leaders). They had uncontrolled inflation through open printing of money, coupled with fixed prices which ended up causing a reversion to bartering in much of the countryside, and massive endemic shortages of consumer goods. Private industry was forcibly nationalized, and the state had a monopoly on grain purchases (in most cases via military seizure), later giving rise for massive starvation in the Ukraine and largescale executions even before the years of the Purges. Plus, as the added kicker, the system was focused on forced labor by the civilian population, not just by the military. Ostensibly the policies of so-called War Communism begun by Lenin were due to the pressures of internal and external military conflict, except it began well before german hostilities and well after the obliteration of pro-czarist forces. It was never a temporary measure, but a model to impose full-fledged communism without any transitory period. Later Stalinist policies were simply an outgrowth of this, and the starvation and executions of millions during Mao's great leap forward were based on the same initial model. Cuba never saw the widescale depopulation via forced famine, gulag, and executions that Russia and China did, but the political repression was (and continues to be in many ways) almost as bad. The more you know.:cip: There's my tangent post for the year.
Zanan 03-18-08, 07:37 PM	-Cuba is anything but thriving. Yeah, I like that bit. Not that I want to comment too much on that, but could it just be that since Kennedy (you know, the JFK version) this fair country is effectively shut-off from the rest of the world by guess who? Now tell me, how should ANYTHING thrive there? It's essentially the Caribbean version of a country currently under the sway of *edited* ... you know, this is an American board and we don't want to get into bother by some ex-Cubans and the like. BTW, East Germany was no Communist country. Socialist ... and on the way to Communism. As I said, much like Capitalism, Communism has seen various forms and all more or less ended up in some form of dictatorship. Once it reached that state, it was no longer Communism as such. And while we are at it, it's not like Capitalism is the peak of existence, nor is the so called democracy or "freedom" which runs so lightly over the lips of politicians these days. Ah, made the Will save again. BTW, cannot see anything Communist in a wood elven settlement within Realmspace ... of course, I have yet to see one in detail in print anyways.
Stigger 03-18-08, 08:19 PM	Depends on how we define Communist... by its idealistic utopian definiton, quite a few elven societies tend towards fairly strong models of it, kinda like the French and possibly German Communards of previous centuries. By a more common, modern definition of Communism in practice (which is anything but idealistic Communist really) there's almost nothing Communist about the elves. As to Cuba... all things considered, they have done quite well when everything said they should be a starving, depressed, squalor-ridden mess. Though I agree that its probably best to avoid the subject entirely.
Khaelieth 03-18-08, 08:56 PM	It had already failed by the 1918-1921 period, well before Stalin had solidified his power (and executed or exiled most of the other original Bolshevik leaders). They had uncontrolled inflation through open printing of money, coupled with fixed prices which ended up causing a reversion to bartering in much of the countryside, and massive endemic shortages of consumer goods. Private industry was forcibly nationalized, and the state had a monopoly on grain purchases (in most cases via military seizure), later giving rise for massive starvation in the Ukraine and largescale executions even before the years of the Purges. Plus, as the added kicker, the system was focused on forced labor by the civilian population, not just by the military. Ostensibly the policies of so-called War Communism begun by Lenin were due to the pressures of internal and external military conflict, except it began well before german hostilities and well after the obliteration of pro-czarist forces. It was never a temporary measure, but a model to impose full-fledged communism without any transitory period. Later Stalinist policies were simply an outgrowth of this, and the starvation and executions of millions during Mao's great leap forward were based on the same initial model. Cuba never saw the widescale depopulation via forced famine, gulag, and executions that Russia and China did, but the political repression was (and continues to be in many ways) almost as bad. The more you know.:cip: There's my tangent post for the year. Remember, the Romanovs had no idea how to run a state. Due to very little commerce, Russia had very little of a middle class, as opposed to mercantile and seafaring nations such as Spain and Britain. Lenin had very little to work with and the previous government (imperial) had treated the populace exceptionally bad by any standard. it was the harsh conditions under which the common folk lived under that eventually sparked the Revolution. Shooting demonstrating factory workers was apparently, as one would say, not cricket. After the civil war, where the West backed the Whites (who were using anti-Semitic propaganda to rally folk to their cause) and eventually got ousted, Lenin had very little to work with. He still introduced free health-care, education and social security, after a fashion. Also introducing for the first time history "proper" legal divorces and legalised abortions. Stalin's plan economy did work after a fashion to begin with too; they did defeat the mightiest army on Earth pretty much single-handedly a few years later.
Stigger 03-18-08, 09:08 PM	Single-handedly? Makes one wonder why the US was sending them so many war materials then... economically, the Soviets have never proven to be particularly efficient. Really, with all of the natural resources at their disposal, Russia should be one of the most powerful nations in the world, probably ahead of the US to be honest, but they really have no idea how to effectively manage it from everything I've seen on the matter, though its getting better from what I know of it. As to the Romanovs, they did attempt a half-hearted series of reform just before the Revolution hit, but as they say, it was too little, too late to make much of a difference.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-08, 09:13 PM	Stalin's plan economy did work after a fashion to begin with too; they did defeat the mightiest army on Earth pretty much single-handedly a few years later. Only with massive foreign support to help him do that, plus the slave labor of tens of millions within the gulags, the russian winter, and sheer force of numbers pushed against the nazis (admittedly, the battle of Stalingrad was an amazing victory, even after stalin executed many of the best trained officers to purge czarist influence or potential rivals). The system was like a man on PCP, it does amazing things for a very brief moment all while destroying itself in the process. Having known a man who spent 2 years in a german POW camp, and then 25 years in a gulag once he returned home, I have a hard time giving any sort of positive spin to that nightmare.
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 11:56 PM	Yeah, I like that bit. Not that I want to comment too much on that, but could it just be that since Kennedy (you know, the JFK version) this fair country is effectively shut-off from the rest of the world by guess who? Now tell me, how should ANYTHING thrive there? It's essentially the Caribbean version of a country currently under the sway of *edited* ... you know, this is an American board and we don't want to get into bother by some ex-Cubans and the like. -Interesting...So, it was JFK that continually censures the most basic freedoms of Cuban citizens? It was JFK that runs the Cuban Secret Police? It was JFK that caused Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and other NGOs to declare Cuba a violator of Human Rights? It was JFK that caused Fidel Castro to install himself as the permanent president of Cuba, until he no longer wanted the job? -Might I repackage an old question?: What sorts of politics do they teach over there? :nonono: BTW, cannot see anything Communist in a wood elven settlement within Realmspace ... of course, I have yet to see one in detail in print anyways. -Look harder, then. Wood Elven settlements assign specific duties to individuals, where the community as a whole relies on those specific jobs/individuals for it's continued survival. So and so is the elder, and leader. So and so goes with so and so to hunt. So and so does such and such. No capitalistic tendencies whatsoever. As I said, this is communistic/communalistic.
Zanan 03-19-08, 04:24 AM	LK ... once again, this is a fantasy board and if you want to discuss politics ... and especially of that nature, one should do it somewhere else. Furthermore, it is quite easy to sit in a seminar office et al, working on "facts" from "entirely objective" books as opposed to having experience, as in: consciously experienced it all by oneself as well as reading the books. Now, don't get me wrong here, I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I have 17 years of United Germany experience on my back too and if you think Communism is bad or does not work, rest assured, you ain't seen nothing yet of how bad Capitalism works. It might be economically sound (sometimes), but if you look a bit deeper into it, you will see shortcomings left, right, and centre. These are my final words on this topic on here.
Khaelieth 03-19-08, 06:49 AM	Only with massive foreign support to help him do that, plus the slave labor of tens of millions within the gulags, the russian winter, and sheer force of numbers pushed against the nazis (admittedly, the battle of Stalingrad was an amazing victory, even after stalin executed many of the best trained officers to purge czarist influence or potential rivals). The system was like a man on PCP, it does amazing things for a very brief moment all while destroying itself in the process. Having known a man who spent 2 years in a german POW camp, and then 25 years in a gulag once he returned home, I have a hard time giving any sort of positive spin to that nightmare. i'm not condoning what the Soviets did - but it did work. Stalin was an absolute nutjob and a nob-end. But The lend-lease was critical, yes, so might've been premature about saying they did it single-handedly. But remember that the mass industrialisation that had taken place under Stalin and Lenin (Read: under communism); only the U.S. industry could produce more than the Russians. But the Second World War was a joint effort, the Norwegians for example sabotaged the only heavy water plant the Germans had at a critical point. if it hadn't been for that, historians and nuclear physicists agree - Germany would've been able to nuke London. But at least up here in Norway, we don't really count the Americans or Brits as saviours at all, the Red Army drove the Wehrmacht out. But i don't see Wood Elves as communists at all; perhaps socialists.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 11:46 AM	I prefer to see certain wood elven settlements as Libertarians.:P ;)
DoveArrow 03-19-08, 12:12 PM	I prefer to see certain wood elven settlements as Libertarians.:P ;) Maybe that was what caused the Crown Wars. The drow wanted to build a freeway, but the libertarian elves wouldn't sell their houses. And since the elven Constitution didn't have an article saying that the state can buy up private property for public use without the owner's consent, the elves said they didn't have to. As a result, the drow- who lived out in the suburbs, and who were tired of having to drive three hours to get to the city- went all ballistic and started killing the Libertarian elves. :P
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 12:25 PM	Now, don't get me wrong here, I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I have 17 years of United Germany experience on my back too and if you think Communism is bad or does not work, rest assured, you ain't seen nothing yet of how bad Capitalism works. -I never said that capitalism doesn't have it's shortcomings, too. Of course it does. Look at the Gini Index of any capitalist country. That aside, communism, as a political system, does not work. Invariably, it leads to the problems demonstrated in the Soviet Union, in China, in Cuba, and in the various Soviet Satalite States. When coupled with a seperate form of governance, with communism as the economic system, things are more viable, as demonstrated with these Elven settlements. There is no widespread poverty, and the people do not live in fear of their superiors. And since the elven Constitution didn't have an article saying that the state can buy up private property for public use without the owner's consent, the elves said they didn't have to. -Note that this was one of the first things the Vyshaanti Elves did to Aryvandaar's constitution when they came to power.
DoveArrow 03-19-08, 12:27 PM	-Note that this was one of the first things the Vyshaanti Elves did to Aryvandaar's constitution when they came to power. Seriously, or are you just having a go at me?
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 02:10 PM	Seriously, or are you just having a go at me? -That do you think? :P
DoveArrow 03-19-08, 03:54 PM	-What do you think? :P Is there any way that I can answer that question without looking like an idiot?
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 04:20 PM	Is there any way that I can answer that question without looking like an idiot? -Depends how you answer the question. ;)
DoveArrow 03-19-08, 05:30 PM	-Depends how you answer the question. ;) I plead the fifth. :P
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 05:47 PM	-Excellent! Everyone saves face, and it's all good. You could have also said, "I am not ehre to talk about the past", or "No hablo ingles". Both work as well. And, on Congress, no less.
Stigger 03-19-08, 07:18 PM	I prefer the ever popular *kicks LK in the balls until he admits whatever perfidy he had in mind* solution...
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 09:20 PM	I prefer the ever popular *kicks LK in the balls until he admits whatever perfidy he had in mind* solution... -I don't...:(
Stigger 03-20-08, 01:56 AM	Shhh... your opinion doesn't count in this matter. :P
Lord Karsus 03-20-08, 02:12 AM	-When did that option gain popularity, anyway? For the life of me, I can't remember that last time I was kicked down there- a good thing, in my estimation.
Stigger 03-20-08, 02:31 AM	Always been that way. It got retconned... silly LK. Pay more attention. :P
Zanan 03-20-08, 06:00 AM	LK ... just to keep you posted ... I still doubt your view on communism as a political & economical system, as well as your perception of wood elven society. Is there any source you can name were we can look at a FR wood elven settlement and its political / economical system?
Lord Karsus 03-20-08, 11:27 AM	LK ... just to keep you posted ... I still doubt your view on communism as a political & economical system, as well as your perception of wood elven society. -Feel free to be wrong, then. Is there any source you can name were we can look at a FR wood elven settlement and its political / economical system? -Silver Shadows.
Zanan 03-20-08, 01:05 PM	-Feel free to be wrong, then. That is a good way to alienate people, you know. -Silver Shadows. Will have a look at that then.
Stigger 03-20-08, 03:39 PM	I suspect the world might come to an end if LK ever gave up on the occassional bit of flippancy...
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 12:48 AM	That is a good way to alienate people, you know. -Yep. Doesn't change the fact, however. I suspect the world might come to an end if LK ever gave up on the occassional bit of flippancy... -Maybe, maybe not.
Khaelieth 03-21-08, 09:51 AM	-Yep. Doesn't change the fact, however. *Agrees with the Hun... grudgingly... again* Btw, think it was a few years ago when the U.N. wanted to remove the trade blockade on Cuba. 167 nations voted for removing the blockade, whereas 3 nations (U.S., israel and Marshall islands) didn't want it removed, therefore it stayed. Gotta love the Guvernator tbh - he needs his Cuban cigars.
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 01:10 PM	Btw, think it was a few years ago when the U.N. wanted to remove the trade blockade on Cuba. 167 nations voted for removing the blockade, whereas 3 nations (U.S., israel and Marshall islands) didn't want it removed, therefore it stayed. Gotta love the Guvernator tbh - he needs his Cuban cigars. -Thus the benefits of living in a unipolar society.