Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 09-02-07, 07:50 PM	Do you guys think there will be a lot of changes going on with the gods? What are your predictions? Is Cyric going for an Astral nap, will Bhaal return? Whatcha think?
Zandilar 09-02-07, 07:54 PM	Heya, Do you guys think there will be a lot of changes going on with the gods? What are your predictions? Is Cyric going for an Astral nap, will Bhaal return? Whatcha think? Cyric, Kelemvor, and Mystra are the most likely deities not to changed or be otherwise effected. Why? Because they haven't been deities all that long. Deific events move at a much much much slower pace than do mortal events. If any of them change, it will be after hundreds of years, not decades. (Though the way things have been portrayed recently, maybe I'm wrong. :rolleyes: *cough*Lady Penitent*cough*)
Sosthenes 09-03-07, 04:36 AM	I guess that whatever ends up as a new core race will have some godly support.
Valgard 09-03-07, 07:22 AM	Heya, [...] (Though the way things have been portrayed recently, maybe I'm wrong. :rolleyes: *cough*Lady Penitent*cough*) I also agree... it's very probable something great happens with the drow pantheon. And other things, I also believe that Deific matters will be focused away from the "Evil triumvirate"-related matters (possible resurrections of Bhaal and Myrkul, Bane, and the new gods Kelemvor, Cyric and Mystra). I think that if they put on something, that will be something about Lathander and Amaunator. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 09-03-07, 12:38 PM	The focus hasn't been on the "evil triumvirate" since... 1e....
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 01:34 PM	Here's hoping they fix Selune putting her back as NG or better yet LG
MarkusTay63 09-03-07, 02:09 PM	Cyric, Kelemvor, and Mystra are the most likely deities not to changed or be otherwise effected. Why? Because they haven't been deities all that long. Deific events move at a much much much slower pace than do mortal events. If any of them change, it will be after hundreds of years, not decades. (Though the way things have been portrayed recently, maybe I'm wrong. :rolleyes: *cough*Lady Penitent*cough*)Actually, I think it is for that very reason that they will be the first to go. The 'new kids on the block' have been causing nothing but trouble, and Kelemvor is just so boring he puts Lathander to sleep. Jergal for president in 1385! :dancin:
GothicDan 09-03-07, 05:11 PM	Here's hoping they fix Selune putting her back as NG or better yet LG Merrik, you know there's absolutely no reason for that to ever happen!
Gray Richardson 09-03-07, 06:40 PM	I think we will see the beginnings of the Mulhorandi pantheon merging with the Faerūnian pantheon. Recently you have Banites opposing Mulhorandi interests in the Old Empires region. This could certainly be an impetus for Mulhorand and its pantheon to interact with greater Faerūn. There are stirrings that something may be going on with Lathander. He may be trying to initiate a new Dawn Crusade. Whether or not that will end in another Dawn Cataclysm we will just have to wait and see. It may also be time for a god to take up the Highsun portfolio again. This could mean that Lathander may himself transform into a noon-day aspect, maybe even taking on the name Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator himself will be brought back and Lathander may wane in influence, eventually "setting" after a period of centuries. But if Horus-Re plays his cards right, he could enter the pantheon and take the portfolio for himself. And then again, Cyric himself is called the Dark Sun. It would not surprise me if he made a bid for the portfolio. Could make for interesting times to come. We know Deneir's clergy has been collecting pieces of something they call the metatext. While they may believe that it contains the secrets of the universe, there is a hint that Leira the goddess of illusion may have preserved something of herself in the pieces of this puzzle and that it may all be an elaborate ruse. If Deneir's clergy assembles the metatext it could give Leira the opportunity to arise again. And come to think of it, someone or something must be maintaining the illusion that masks the true appearance of Toril's moon... The Age of Worms adventure path in Dragon Magazine revealed some tantalizing non-canon lore about Jergal. It is possible that some of these plot points could begin to work their way into canon lore. Although, we will just have to wait and see if the story plays out the same way. It could go a totally different way. Regardless, Jergal has the potential to be very interesting and so we might see things start to happen with his story arc. Meanwhile the Shades are trying to reestablish the Netherese Empire. This could have some relevance to former Netherese deities. Shar for one will benefit greatly I think. But you could also see Beshaba strengthened. Or heck, there could be some attempt to reunify Beshaba and Tymora. Moander could be brought back (again). Garagos could also gain in strength against Tempus. They could conceivably bring Amaunator back. And this could definitely work its way into Jergal's story arc. I think there will be a lot going on with the gods in 4e. Stay tuned and we will see what happens!
Xaean 09-03-07, 08:27 PM	Here's hoping they fix Selune putting her back as NG or better yet LG :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: As a goddess of freedom and tolerance, I always thought of her as the best example of CG. I agree with those who predict a change regarding Lathander and Amaunator, wether his means Lathander becoming Amaunator or, less likely both deities existing side by side. If Amaunator comes back this would turn the scales of balance a great deal in favor of law. Alternatively alignment could be become less important and he could be seen as a direct opposition the Shar - light opposing darkness. As far as the Mulhorandi pantheon goes - I don't think they will make it to 4E. In the recent years Wizards was rather reluctant adding real world mythology to Faerun with the execption of Tiamat. Some will take new names and merge with the Faerunian pantheon, like Bast/Sharess did before and some may perish - Anhur might get killed in a duel with Tempus e.g. Horus-Re might merge with the reborn Amaunator. Those with portfolios not currently represented in the Faerunian pantheon will have a better chance of surviving - Hathor may - under a differnt name become the new Faerunian Goddess of Family, marriage and home, as their is no deity in the Faerunian pantheon holding that portfolio. While with Kelemvor being god of Death, Osiris wont find a place in the new pantheon that easy.
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 08:37 PM	:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: As a goddess of freedom and tolerance, I always thought of her as the best example of CG. But she's the goddess of the moon - orderly thing. NG still fits her portfolio very well, in fact, I think better.
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 08:44 PM	Merrik, you know there's absolutely no reason for that to ever happen! you're buzzkill, man
Xaean 09-03-07, 08:51 PM	The waxing and waning of the moon traditionally represents change - and therefore chaos. Her followers are described as free spirited and without a strict hierarchy, which are also traits of chaos rather than law. Originally chaos also meant a potential for creation and renewal, rather than a state of disorder, and I think Selunite chaos is just that.
BadCatMan 09-03-07, 09:02 PM	I'd rather not see any pantheon mergers. In fact, I'd like more pantheons. More pantheons means more gods, which gives more options for role-play. Coz sometimes you just can't find the right god. I'd like to see a Chessentan-Untheric pantheon appear out of the Old Empires, filled with lots of stray refugee and wanna-be gods, all free and independent. There'd be Assuran, Tchazzar, Entropy, Maldraedior, a few promoted hero-gods, some newbies, some resurrected oldies. I don't see the Mulhorandi merging with anyone. They are too monolithic, their culture too unified.
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 09:25 PM	The waxing and waning of the moon traditionally represents change - and therefore chaos. But it waxes and wanes on a schedule. Your calendar is based on it. Tides are timed to the second on it. Your woman gets loopy at the same time. Order.
MarkHall 09-03-07, 10:18 PM	But it waxes and wanes on a schedule. Your calendar is based on it. Tides are timed to the second on it. Your woman gets loopy at the same time. Order. Your last point argues against order.
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 10:42 PM	Your last point argues against order. not really. It comes around like clockwork. I know, I've been married for 9 years
Green Elven Vampire 09-03-07, 10:51 PM	Hopefully Erevan Ilesere will have some awesome things going on with him. Maybe a great godly theft, or perhaps a wicked deific trick or prank on some lawful god or goddess. Go Erevan Ilesere!!!
Yanagita Kunio 09-03-07, 11:01 PM	I have to admit that I like the idea of the Mulhorandi pantheon experiencing more slippage with the other Faerunian ones. Not that every god would simply fade out, but rather that the intermingling would become more fuzzy. Horus-Re and Lathander doing the fusion dance to become a new High Sun god would be nifty, even if no other changes were made to the pantheon. Following through on Set's ambitions relative to the old serpent gods (binding Sseth) with some portfolio changes and some other stuff could also be fun.
Spelldancer 09-04-07, 01:26 AM	I would actually like to see Selune becoming a greater power. As for the Mulhorandi pantheon becoming absorbed.. I kind of like it.. Some gods I would keep around.. possible. Hathor I can see merging with Lliira or Selune Isis, with Mystra or Sune. Though I almost would like to see Isis continue, perhaps becoming something like a Goddess of Enchantment/Charm spells. Osiris - I see merging with Kelemvor. Geb - Perhaps Grumbar Anhur - I rather hope he stays around. I like him better than Tempus :D Nephytis - Maybe Waukeen? Set - I want him to stay around. Perhaps give Cyric a run for his money.
SmartPaladin 09-04-07, 02:08 AM	Anhur might get killed in a duel with Tempus But would Tempus earn the enmity or respect of Hoar/Assuran for doing so? I really hope Hoar/Assuran not just make it, but grow in power. Enough so that we/I won't worry about him biting the bullet. Granted, I also hope he doesn't fall under the sway of Shar. I'd honestly rather see him join forces with Kelemvor. For surely, those who have died because of murder or betrayal would seek vengeance. :P (Yes, as a matter of fact. I do love Hoar.)
Valten 09-04-07, 06:58 AM	Powers and pantheons I believe stated that Hoar had withdrawn into himself to start plotting against Anhur and get his 'rightful' portfolios, this could be why he hasn't been doing much openly. I'm hoping wizards actually do something with this in some kind of culmination rather than letting anything just drift on.
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 03:31 PM	There are stirrings that something may be going on with Lathander. He may be trying to initiate a new Dawn Crusade. Whether or not that will end in another Dawn Cataclysm we will just have to wait and see. It may also be time for a god to take up the Highsun portfolio again. This could mean that Lathander may himself transform into a noon-day aspect, maybe even taking on the name Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator himself will be brought back and Lathander may wane in influence, eventually "setting" after a period of centuries. NOTE: This is all wacky conjecture on my part -As I began reading Shadowstorm, Book II of the Twilight War Trilogy, I also began thinking that Lathander siezing the portfolio was imminent. The priests from the Abbey of Dawn all embraced the Risen Sun, and believed that Lathander's transformation was imminent. However, the more I read the book, the less likely I began to think that this was. -Firstly, the fact that Abelar Corrinthal is a main character in the series shows that he will be someone of importance. The Shadowstorm is unleashed on Sembia, plunging it into darkness, an eternal one if Shar has her wishes. What naturally dispels night? The rising sun. Lathander. -Also, Abelar, at the end of the novel, has a crisis of faith, and seems to abandon Lathander to the darkness his current predicament left him in. Again, what better to dispel darkness than the rising sun? Lathander. -While we're on the topic, I also believe that Abelar Corrinthal will turn what is left of Sembia into a Theocratic Monarchy...
MerrikCale 09-05-07, 12:05 AM	conjecture perhaps, but not that wacky
Splarg 09-05-07, 04:21 AM	remember, no matter who loses in the possibly coming merge between the mulhurandi patheon and the faerunian, whomever loses within each specific case will prolly be knocked down to demigod status as tends to be standard, of course with 4e comes great changes so who knows maybe the losing gods will perish.
Valgard 09-05-07, 07:32 AM	Geb - Perhaps GrumbarIt was stated (I think in Faiths and Pantheons, but also probably in older books) that if Geb is going to make something is to return to their original plane to find his wife Nut... I think that's the most obvious thing to happen to him. Anhur - I rather hope he stays around. I like him better than Tempus :DI also hope that, I like Anhur a lot too! Set - I want him to stay around. Perhaps give Cyric a run for his money.Set is not going to go away, he has most of the yuan-ti under his service.
MerrikCale 09-05-07, 09:34 AM	remember, no matter who loses in the possibly coming merge between the mulhurandi patheon and the faerunian, no doubt in my mind that if one has to win, it will be the Faerunian pantheon. Its is after the all the original group of gods. The others are just Egyptian with no unique flavor
Steel General 09-05-07, 02:12 PM	I think a "merger" (or fusion) of the Mulhurandi & Faerunian pantheons is likely. The Mulhurandi dieties seem to be stagnant (and in all but a few cases) almost boring. Many of the mergers make sense, though some may come down to actual fighting; Here's my take on a few of them... Horus-Re <=> Lathander: I'm with the whole 'triumvirate' Sun diety camp. Lathandar's 'crusade' fails and in the aftermath Horus takes over as a reborn Amanutor (sp?) Osiris <=> Kelemvor : I'm hoping Osiris beats Kel's ho-hum butt and takes over, but most likely they will merge. Set <=> Cyric <=> Bane: Though he may have enough with the Yuan-ti to hold his own, the smart play would be for him to 'merge' with Bane and smack Cyric around some. Thoth (I think he's around) <=> Deneir/Oghma: Probably a strait forward merger Anhur <=> Tempus: I think they'll fight it out Hathor: Becomes subserviant to Eldath as deity of Families, Etc. Isis <=> Mystra: Either merge or become a subserviant goddess like Azuth, Savras, etc.
MerrikCale 09-05-07, 09:45 PM	Actually, it wouldn't surprise if they just do away with the copied Egyptian pantheon. Or at least, overhaul it
Valten 09-06-07, 04:50 AM	They pretty much killed of the Untheric block, so why not the Mulhorandi :).
Andyr 09-06-07, 12:24 PM	And come to think of it, someone or something must be maintaining the illusion that masks the true appearance of Toril's moon... What illusion is this? Moander could be brought back (again). I don't know whether you've read it, but one of the plots in Power of Faerun was just that--Moander is trying to lure powerful beings, such as Chosen or the avatars of deities, to his form so he can return (again).
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 01:30 PM	What illusion is this? -I'm not sure if this is what he was alluding to, but there are numerous civilizations and settlements activley living on Toril's moon.
MerrikCale 09-06-07, 08:28 PM	-I'm not sure if this is what he was alluding to, but there are numerous civilizations and settlements activley living on Toril's moon. The inhumans?
yarethon 09-06-07, 08:29 PM	I am waiting to see a major ****
SmartPaladin 09-06-07, 08:54 PM	The inhumans? You win a box of Internet cookies for that one.
MarkusTay63 09-06-07, 09:02 PM	There is a permanent illusion on the moon as seen from Toril's surface. The moon has an atmosphere and is actually covered with flora and fauna, but from Toril it appears to be nothing more then a dead, grey rock. They also throw some serious parties on the moon... it's a resort for epic-types. ;) Considering that both Hoar (Assuran) and Sharess (Bast) have both been Faerūnized, complete with name change, I feel the same is imminent for the rest. Some will die, but most will probably be reborn as Faerūnian deities. I think Set should have no problem merging - he pretty much interacts with all of them now. He might oust Cyric (good ridance), but I could see him and Bane as rivals. Considering that the whole world appears to be going to the dogs (Points of Light and all), having both Bane and Set around makes loads of sense.
MerrikCale 09-06-07, 09:57 PM	You win a box of Internet cookies for that one. yum
Lord Karsus 09-07-07, 10:06 AM	The inhumans? -Along with the Watcher. -Note that Selunians actually live there: The people for the most part are pale skinned, living their lives in a world's atmosphere that softens the rays of the sun to such a point that tanning is impossible. The humans, who are about an average of six inches shorter than their Toril counterparts, live in harmony with the Elves who are about six inches taller than their relatives planetside. There has never been a war in recorded history between these two races, which is a credit to their benevolence. Together, side by side, they have made the Toril satellite a very beautiful place to live and work. The humans all have blonde or light brown hair. Their eyes are light colored as well; bright blues and greens are the normal, with the purple or lavender shades being fairly unusual. None of the inhabitants have brown, black, or any other darker eye color. Even the elves exhibit lighter shades of skin, eyes, and hair.
SmartPaladin 09-07-07, 04:51 PM	-Note that Selunians actually live there: Hope Hulk didn't smash them when he came looking for Blackbolt...
MerrikCale 09-07-07, 09:35 PM	Hope Hulk didn't smash them when he came looking for Blackbolt... blackbolt had it coming
MarkusTay63 09-07-07, 11:56 PM	-Along with the Watcher.That guys the ultimate voyeur. :P Does Pink Floyd live on the Dark Side of the Moon? :confused:
godbeepit 09-08-07, 12:17 AM	Of course not, they ditched that place years ago. I mean, Pink Floyd hanging out with a bunch of namby-pamby gardeners? Pshah. They're gonna be throwing real parties. Get Bane wasted and goad him into saying something funny about Cyric. Cyric in the mean time is snorting coke off of Sune and gets upset and... well its just plain funny.;)
SmartPaladin 09-08-07, 12:34 AM	Of course not, they ditched that place years ago. I mean, Pink Floyd hanging out with a bunch of namby-pamby gardeners? Pshah. They're gonna be throwing real parties. Get Bane wasted and goad him into saying something funny about Cyric. Cyric in the mean time is snorting coke off of Sune and gets upset and... well its just plain funny.;) Isn't Kelemvor rocking out to Death Metal while all of that's going on? :P
MerrikCale 09-08-07, 08:59 AM	Isn't Kelemvor rocking out to Death Metal while all of that's going on? :P I've always viewed as more likely to be listening to the Doors "The End" on a loop
GothicDan 09-08-07, 11:31 AM	I've always viewed Kelemvor as not existing.
Tyberian 09-08-07, 12:08 PM	As the popularity of orcs has risen from what it once was, do anyone have any thoughts as to whether they will create a new orc god or perhaps a current one will take nice orcs under his or her wing?:confused: :confused: I have two possibilities in mind 1. In a bid for power and to overstep Gruumsh, Ilneval tries to win over the half-orcs who have stopped following the orc pantheon and ends up becoming a neutral deity of half-orcs within the faerunian pantheon after exiting the orc pantheon.:clap: 2. Due to the circumstances of the birth half-orcs often become drifters/wanderers. Also, they suffer a lot of prejudice even if in most cases it is rightly deserved. I know this may sound crazy, but Selune has wanderers as part of her portfolio and her dogma is that all should be treated equally which makes her a perfect choice for half-orcs. COMMENTS??
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 12:45 PM	The new Kingdom of Many Arrows, 100 years from now, has outlawed the worship of Gruumsh. It will be interesting to see what has taken his place. As far as the fate of the gods, Drizzt has this to say in that preview - "Where are all the benevolent Gods now?" Scarey, huh? :(
JetLeechan 09-08-07, 01:49 PM	My prediction is Bhaal comes back, and whoo, it won't be a nice party but the biggest massacre torils pantheons have ever witnessed. Bhaals going to avenge his death by attacking Cyric, Midnight sees her chance and attacks Cyric too, during they battle Cyric is seriously wounded, Bhaal realizes Cyric is no longer a danger to him so he falls into the back of mystra greatly injuring her. Mystra escapes but she is weakened a lot. A weakened Mystra calls all the wannabe gods and godesses of magic into action trying to gain the magic portfolio from her. Mystra is saved by the combined efforts of Selune, Lathander and other good gods. Through all the fighting a lot of gods are weakened and some are killed in the upcoming battles. At the end Ao becalms the situation, establishing a new status quo. Mystra and Cyric, along with other minor gods are gone. The great winners will be Bhaal, who is again the god of murder, Shar, who stregthened the shadow weave due to the weak protection of the weave after Mystras death (shadow weave magic becomes trendy in the realms, Isis, who gains the Magic portfolio and Kelemvor, because he gets so damn much souls during the whole battles, which also blustered at torils surface between the followers. And souls are the currency when negotiating with devils and other gods, right? (im not sure about this)
Miryana 09-08-07, 02:40 PM	2. Due to the circumstances of the birth half-orcs often become drifters/wanderers. Also, they suffer a lot of prejudice even if in most cases it is rightly deserved. I know this may sound crazy, but Selune has wanderers as part of her portfolio and her dogma is that all should be treated equally which makes her a perfect choice for half-orcs. I like this idea. Selune as the new goddess of Many Arrows orcs? It would fit the theme of the moon; she'd grow in power and become a greater goddess for the time being. As far as the fate of the gods, Drizzt has this to say in that preview - "Where are all the benevolent Gods now?" Scarey, huh? :( Very disappointing. I don't want the Realms to become all about angst and despair.
MarkHall 09-08-07, 02:51 PM	The new Kingdom of Many Arrows, 100 years from now, has outlawed the worship of Gruumsh. It will be interesting to see what has taken his place. As far as the fate of the gods, Drizzt has this to say in that preview - "Where are all the benevolent Gods now?" Scarey, huh? :( Dude, every time you say this, I'm flashing to Bonnie Tyler...
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 03:21 PM	No, no... you have to play Bob Dillon - Eve of Destruction I was thinking R.E.M. as well - It's the end of the Worls as we Know it... but I DON'T feel FINE! :headexplo
SgtAnjay 09-08-07, 03:51 PM	Is all the Mulhorandi hate all about them being direct analogues? Because, you know, the Mulhorandi empire is increasing in power and so are their gods. I have no clue how that would translate to them vanishing. Not to mention the fact that the Mulhorandi are an actual united pantheon, while the Faerunians are just a few cliques and a bunch of individuals who happen to be on the same continent. So it wouldn't be Anhur vs Tempus, it would be Anhur the general of the entire Mulhorandi pantheon against Tempus. It wouldn't be Osiris vs. Kelemvor, because Isis and Horus-Re would have quite alot to say about what happens to Osiris, and given their position of leadership the rest of the Mulhorandi would then be moved to action, with Set seeking to subvertly aid Kelemvor. So and and so forth. It would be that way for any direct conflict vs. the Mulhorandi; their unity is a huge plus in their favor. Of course, Silvanus, Mielikki, Loviatar, Oghma, Tyr, and I think a couple others are also direct analogues of Earth deities and I dont really see them being wiped, either.
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 03:57 PM	Isn't it obvious? :confused: BOTH Thay and Mulhorand are rising in power and flexing their muscles. That can only lead to a war... I don't think the Mulhorandi gods are leaving, at least not all of them, but rather they are going to evolve into something along the lines of Hoar and Sharess. The are going to get 'Realmsified'. :D
SgtAnjay 09-08-07, 04:03 PM	Something along the lines of Hoar and Sharess? Hoar was expelled, Sharess left of her own volition and then merged with a couple other dying deities she encountered. Of course, she hasn't abandoned her Mulhorandi aspect, and one wonders where she would fall in any conflict involving the Mulhorandi Pantheon vs. a Faerunian deity (with perhaps the exception of Anhur, who she's on-again-off-again with but still remembered as his lieutenant.) The problem with the sort of merger is the Faerunians are a scattered bunch, but the Mulhorandi are united and monolithic. One on one interaction wont happen the way people are bringing up, and one wonders how many Faerunian deities could gather up enough allies to go head to head with a full pantheon before it was too late. (btw, edited my first post in this thread as I thought of a couple other points the second I hit the post button)
The Ubbergeek 09-08-07, 06:39 PM	I've always viewed Kelemvor as not existing. Death always is, even if we deny it's existance.
SmartPaladin 09-09-07, 12:55 AM	I've always viewed Kelemvor as not existing. Mind if I just give you a number? Seeing as how I've run into a fair amount of people who don't like Kelemvor... Dude needs new PR.
godbeepit 09-09-07, 01:07 AM	Isn't Kelemvor rocking out to Death Metal while all of that's going on? :P I've always viewed as more likely to be listening to the Doors "The End" on a loop Hmm.... I think Myrkul (the old god of death if I recall correctly) being the one more likely to rock out with death metal than anyone. Gotta agree with Merrik, the Doors sounds right on par for Kelemvor.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 08:50 AM	Very disappointing. I don't want the Realms to become all about angst and despair. -Get used to it...
GothicDan 09-09-07, 10:27 AM	Myrkul would rock out to goth metal, not death metal. Death metal would totally be Bane or Bhaal.
MarkHall 09-09-07, 03:26 PM	Myrkul would rock out to goth metal, not death metal. Death metal would totally be Bane or Bhaal. Tempus.
GothicDan 09-09-07, 09:56 PM	Naw, that'd be Garagos. I could see Tempus doing like.. Rhapsody.
godbeepit 09-09-07, 10:39 PM	There's not truly enough difference between goth metal and death metal to make a difference. They both scream unintelligibly so even lyrics don't matter. However, troll metal and viking metal is on a completely separate level. :dancin: :dancin:
SmartPaladin 09-09-07, 10:58 PM	I could see Tempus doing like.. Rhapsody. Is it Bohemian Rhapsody? By Queen? :P
MerrikCale 09-09-07, 11:01 PM	Is it Bohemian Rhapsody? By Queen? :P Rhapsody in Blue
SmartPaladin 09-09-07, 11:08 PM	I don't remember that one... :confused:
Steel General 09-10-07, 02:48 PM	I really see Kelemvor listening to Morrissey on a loop...though The Doors - "The End" is a great choice too.
GothicDan 09-10-07, 04:01 PM	The Italian metal band Rhasopdy. And I don't consider Goth metal to be at all the same as Death metal. Goth metal is more like certain older things by Theatre of Tragedy and Death is more like Tristania. To me, of course.
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 04:49 PM	Kelemvor would definately listen to kansas - "All we are is dust in the Wind..." Garagos strikes me more of an Iron maiden/Ozzy fan - "Generals gather in their masses... Just like witches in Black Masses..." Loviatar, believe it or not, would enjoy the Allman Brothers Band - "Tied to the Whipping post...TIED to the Whipping post..." :dancin: Very disappointing. I don't want the Realms to become all about angst and despair.Hey! How did you find out the two greater gods in 4e would be Angst and Despair? That was supposed to be top-secret. :incog:
GothicDan 09-10-07, 04:53 PM	All hail Shar...
MerrikCale 09-10-07, 08:56 PM	I don't remember that one... :confused: I feel old
SmartPaladin 09-10-07, 09:14 PM	I feel old Would it help if I said we still love you? Huh, huh? :P Anyone else think Valkur is probably listening to "Yellow Submarine"? :P
MerrikCale 09-10-07, 09:19 PM	Would it help if I said we still love you? Huh, huh? :P Not unless you're a hot babe
MarkHall 09-10-07, 11:54 PM	Loviatar, believe it or not, would enjoy the Allman Brothers Band - "Tied to the Whipping post...TIED to the Whipping post..." :dancin: Loviatar: Easy Listening stations. 24/7. Trust me. That's what they listen to at work. They may SEEM like nice little Korean Catholics, but forcing me to listen to Sunny 99.1 for seven and a half hours means they're secret devotees of Loviatar.
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 01:12 AM	Yeah... its usually those submissive types that like getting tied up at the end of a long day.... :D And now for a few more - Orcus = Meatloaf "Bat out of Hell" Lathander = 5th Dimension "Let the Sunshine in" Sharess - Samanth Fox (how appropriate) "Touch me, touch me now" Ubtao - Ross Bagdasarian (?) "My friend the Witchdoctor" Sune = West Side Story soundtrack (?) "I feel pretty, oh so pretty..." Cyric = AC/DC "Dirty Deeds, and they're done dirt cheap" Gond = Pink Floyd "Welcome... to the machine" Malar = Warren Zevon Werewolves of London - "He's the hairy-handed gent who ran amuck in Kent Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair Better stay away from him He'll rip your lungs out, Jim I'd like to meet his tailor Werewolves of London"
Lord Karsus 09-11-07, 10:05 AM	-A LONG while ago, there was a thread that listed what we thought would be deities' theme songs. I had the list saved on my computer, but it seems I erased it. If anyone has the thread...
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 02:17 PM	And here I thought it was an original concept. :bored: I guess it's true when they say there really aren't any new ideas left.
Xaean 09-11-07, 08:37 PM	Selune would definitely like Mike Oldfield: Moonlight Shadow Shar: Blind Guardian - Nightfall Mystro: Blackmore's Night - Fires At Midnight Morwel: Blackmore's Night - Faerie Queen Talos: Dragonforce - Fury Of The Storm Lathander: Freedom Call - Land Of The Light Shaundakul: Freedom Call - The Wanderer Asmodeus: Gamma Ray - Hell Is My Home Moradin: Manowar - Sign Of The Hammer Tempus: Manowar - Warriors Of The World Tyr: Metallica - And Justice For All Umberlee: Nightwish - Ocean Soul Rilifane Ralathiel: Rhapsody - Ancient Forest Of Elves Mielikki: Rhapsody - Forest Of Unicorns Lurue: Rhapsody - The Last Winged Unicorn Kossuth: Rhapsody - The Mighty Ride Of The Firelord Tchazzar: Rhapsody - Power Of The Dragonflame Heironius (OK, OK, he doesn't exist on Faerun, but it fits him too well...): Rhapsody - Holy Thunderforce Nobanion: Skylark - Lions Are The World Bahamut/Xymor: Stratovarius - Where Dragons Fly Auril: Stratovarius - Cold Winter Nights Amaunator: Therion - Sun Of The Sun Azuth: Uriah Heep - The Wizard
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 08:53 PM	I thought it was one deity to one band. And besides, I never heard of any of them. :P Mystra during the ToT - Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven". ;) Chauntee to Lathander - Hair soundtrack? "Good Morning, Starshine... the Earth says hello..." Eshowdow - Blue Oyster Cult "Go, go Godzilla"
MaskedOne 09-11-07, 11:48 PM	In response to the original topic, as long as Mystra remains in a position of strength (not as a superpower with unquestioned dominion over all magic, just somewhere close to it) and doesn't gain an evil fragment to her alignment, I'm not really concerned one way or another. Since there's an Elaine Cunningham short story with an active priestess of Mystra set about ten years forward, I have high hopes for Mystra's survival (of the spellplague at least) but then again I've been wrong before.
SmartPaladin 09-12-07, 02:18 AM	Since there's an Elaine Cunningham short story with an active priestess of Mystra set about ten years forward, I have high hopes for Mystra's survival (of the spellplague at least) but then again I've been wrong before. And what short story was that? and to continue the Deity theme song! :P Eilistraee: Dancing in the Moonlight by Toploader. :P
MarkusTay63 09-12-07, 02:33 AM	Wait! We need to give one to Lord Karsus, the 'momentary' god... Tom Petty - "Free Falling" :P
MaskedOne 09-12-07, 02:37 AM	Don't remember off-hand, didn't feel like buying the book for the sake of that one short story. The book was the Best of the Realms anthology for her stories and the story in question was sequel of sorts to Windwalker. If I get to the local library or the right bookstore tomorrow then I can probably give specifics but tracking down what I want through the net from my current location would be difficult.
MaskedOne 09-12-07, 02:41 AM	Wait! We need to give one to Lord Karsus, the 'momentary' god... Tom Petty - "Free Falling" :P You also need one for KtM and another for the missing fragment.
MarkusTay63 09-12-07, 02:57 AM	KtM - The Kinks (Paranoia) "Thers's a little blue man in my head..." Missing Fragment - The Beatles "He's a real Nowhere man...."
DarkSongKnight 09-12-07, 04:05 AM	Eilistraee - "The Voice (http://youtube.com/watch?v=sfO6JpR5Ip8)" by Celtic Woman. "Shadow of the Moon (http://youtube.com/watch?v=eN1-NYQiDYU)" by Blackmore's Night. (My personal favorites, hehe. ;) ) Sharess - "Naughty Girl (http://youtube.com/watch?v=13dV4Q4DvpM)" by Beyonce. Sehanine Moonbow - "Lament of the Highborne (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JT50zElbN0c)" from the World of Warcraft soundtrack. Hanali Celanil - "The Last Rose of Summer (http://youtube.com/watch?v=h-P15xujxoI)" by Celtic Woman. Malar - "Animal I have become (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bGFXKYvH39I)" by Three Days Grace. Kelemvor - "Requiem Eternam (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4PCYEJRReVk)" by La commédie musicale Le Roi Soleil (France). Shar - "System (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRJ4_GLX7vo)" by Linkin Park. Lathandar - "Shine (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pP3yeqkkYBE)" by Collective Soul. Sune - "I feel pretty (http://youtube.com/watch?v=L7BQRGXFLJs)" from West Side story. (Good one MarkusTay63! :D ) Lolth - "Slept So Long (http://youtube.com/watch?v=k0mcr261Jfs)" from Queen of the Damned. (Great music video, by the way. It reminds me visually of Lolth.) Loviatar - "Tainted Love (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ExWm16kKH4U)" by Marilyn Manson. (Brief nudity warning.) Tempus - "Fighter (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ARTRCduC0nA)" by Christina Aguilera. For any of the love/lust deities - "Call Me (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SHdUpFrbFxQ)" by Blondie. "Candyman (http://youtube.com/watch?v=W4kR8OQCrlQ)" by Christina Aguilera.
Lord Karsus 09-12-07, 12:29 PM	-I'll see if I can find that original list. I might have it on my flash stick...
Valgard 09-12-07, 01:06 PM	I have to say it... do you see? I'm an Iron Maiden fan: All Mulhorandi pantheon: Powerslave Umberlee: Rime of the Ancient Mariner Savras: The Clairvoyant Shar: Fear of the Dark If Myrkul raises again: 2 Minutes to Midnight :D
The Ubbergeek 09-12-07, 01:38 PM	Gond; Maquinas by Anonymus
SmartPaladin 09-12-07, 05:11 PM	Don't remember off-hand, didn't feel like buying the book for the sake of that one short story. The book was the Best of the Realms anthology for her stories and the story in question was sequel of sorts to Windwalker. If I get to the local library or the right bookstore tomorrow then I can probably give specifics but tracking down what I want through the net from my current location would be difficult. Ah, I have that one. Though as I recall, it wasn't set that far into the future. It was just a few years after the events of Windwalker. Hoar: Won't Back Down [Bring You Hell Remix] by Fuel (http://artists.letssingit.com/fuel-lyrics-wont-back-down-bring-you-hell-remix-7hq1bsg).
MarkusTay63 09-14-07, 01:47 AM	Back on topic - boy, were we off. Don't read if you want to wait until you get GHotR Mystra's dead Savras' Dead Helm's dead Cyrics locked away for a thousand Years Most of the Drow Pantheon is dead Most of the Dwarven Pantheon is dead Azuth and Velsharoon ran away... The Spellplague isn't an illness... its the absence of the Weave! Gone... all gone... :allalone:
MarkHall 09-14-07, 02:55 AM	Wow. I want that book.
goldomark 09-14-07, 04:16 AM	I would love to see Jergal trick Osiris into absorbing him. Osiris would become Kelemvor's aid. And, with that would fallow a war between the different pantheons, all according to Jergal's plan.
Gaelin 09-14-07, 04:16 AM	Wow, there's a set of changes that turns me off in just a few sentences. I had misgivings about 4e BEFORE..
Zandilar 09-14-07, 08:33 AM	Heya, Back on topic - boy, were we off. Don't read if you want to wait until you get GHotR Mystra's dead Savras' Dead Helm's dead Cyrics locked away for a thousand Years Azuth and Velsharoon ran away... The Spellplague isn't an illness... its the absence of the Weave! Gone... all gone... :allalone: I can't tell if you're joking or not. Please tell me you're joking. Edit: Oh gods you're not joking. There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling right now. Edit2: And yet, I'm strangely intrigued...
Andyr 09-14-07, 10:26 AM	Zandilar: I feel exactly the same... I guess we will see how it pans out!
Miryana 09-14-07, 10:38 AM	I'm desperately hoping that Torm survives by absorbing the worshippers of Helm, but since he's a lesser deity I'm afraid he's in danger after these revelations about deities in 4E. If they're revamping the pantheon, they should have gotten rid of Cyric, that sad wannabe. Being banished is too kind a fate for him. This (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=207161) EN World thread has more deity spoilers.
Lord Karsus 09-14-07, 11:03 AM	-Wow...Just...wow. 4e FR is not for me...:(
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 11:19 AM	Wow, heresay and we already have complaints? Gee, calm down....
Lord Karsus 09-14-07, 11:23 AM	Wow, heresay and we already have complaints? Gee, calm down.... -That's not heresay, though.
DarkSongKnight 09-14-07, 11:40 AM	Wow... so they are cutting out flavor... Question about elves and the Weave... If there is no Weave, will the elves die?! Something about their innate ties to magic, and such? Scary thing is, this might actually make sense. Wood/Wild elves being the standard elves in 4e, as they have less to do with magic. Eladrins are more divine, it would seem... Ha. Mystra dead. Again. Whats that? Four times now? Or five?
HVulpes 09-14-07, 11:55 AM	I doubt that they would kill off all of the lower level gods, but they might cluster the gods closer together in their planes with a Greater God holding the plane stable with minor aid from the lesser gods. A Greater god is powerful, but a circle of deities is mighty indeed.
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 12:20 PM	-That's not heresay, though. I will complain - if I do - when I will see the new edition. I saw as a gamer many time announced games change during the time between announcements and exit on market.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-14-07, 12:46 PM	-Wow...Just...wow. 4e FR is not for me...:( That's really about all I have to say at this point. And I won't delude myself into thinking otherwise. PS: I've mentioned elsewhere that I find this new lore to be LAMER then I thought it would be. I can't even say I think it's kind of cool or interesting even if I dislike it--it's pure silliness.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-14-07, 12:50 PM	Heya, There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling right now. This is what I feel: :surrender No passion, no anger, just...weariness.
Mirtek 09-14-07, 01:23 PM	As a huge fan of Cyric I am actually very pleased with this developement. Slaying Mystra and tricking a greater deity of justice into murdering one of his former friends -> that's worthy of a greater deity of illusion, deception, murder, strife, intrigue and lies. Once again Cyric is a prime example for the losers Bane and Bhaal to see and learn how their job is done by someone competent! Of course, I still have to hope that this imprisonment doesn't stop him from influencing Toril and his church and just means that he can't leave personally or manifest avatars but still watch and send spells and omens and all the stuff deities do that don't involve them appearing in person.
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 02:14 PM	That's really about all I have to say at this point. And I won't delude myself into thinking otherwise. PS: I've mentioned elsewhere that I find this new lore to be LAMER then I thought it would be. I can't even say I think it's kind of cool or interesting even if I dislike it--it's pure silliness. First the core is core, and as you know, setting fluff > basic d&d one. And second, I find you overreacting. The 4the dition is also for you, but also for everyone. Things aren<t going crash.
MarkusTay63 09-14-07, 02:45 PM	Au contraire I have noticed many die-hard FR Grognards who have decide not to buy into 4e FR. These are people who love the Realms, and have stuck through everything else thrown at them. Basically, this will get rid of the 'old gaurd', and possibly generate new customers. This was WotCs plan all along. Most of us are getting older, and the company didn't want FR to become known as "My Grandpa's setting". So they nuked it, changed the flavor, and re-packaged it for the next generation. Good luck to them - I've played with that crowd. My guildmaster in WoW was a 15 yr old Japanese girl. Great Players (in a mechanical way), but no sense of Roleplay. Pretty soon the stats will just be printed on cards, just like the Miniatures game. Dumbed down for fast play. Keep the action going, thats what its all about. I'm sure FR will be getting Eberron's 'Action Point' system as well.
SmartPaladin 09-14-07, 02:48 PM	Back on topic - boy, were we off. Don't read if you want to wait until you get GHotR Mystra's dead Savras' Dead Helm's dead Cyrics locked away for a thousand Years Most of the Drow Pantheon is dead Most of the Dwarven Pantheon is dead Azuth and Velsharoon ran away... The Spellplague isn't an illness... its the absence of the Weave! Gone... all gone... :allalone: But, but... :weep:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-14-07, 03:04 PM	And second, I find you overreacting. I don't care.
Karsus the Mad 09-14-07, 05:02 PM	Heh. I'm curious and maybe someone can answer. If Lore trumps game mechanics, as so many designers and fans claim, why is there invariably also some in-game explaination as to why out-of-game Rules change?
MarkusTay63 09-14-07, 05:54 PM	They have come to the conclusion that we are mindless idiots that must be led around by our... noses. By the time 6e rolls around, we will jsut be wearing virtual reality helmets that force-feed us RSEs, while a hose reaches directly into our pockets to drain us dry. :smirk:
Vasyek 09-14-07, 06:30 PM	As a huge fan of Cyric[/spoiler] I am actually very pleased with this developement. I'm a fan of Cyric myself, and given the developments I was expecting am pleasantly surprised that he at least got to go out with a bang, if the imprisonment does actually take him out of the picture. However, the Tyr vs. Helm scenario just seems daft... not that it could never ever happen, but how they made it happen is a joke. Siamorphe packing up and leaving is supposed to be some kind of big deal? Why Tymora, of all people, and how the hell did she end up falling for a dour freak like Helm? And Ilmater packing up for Brightwater? I can see getting disillusioned with the Triad over this wacky incident, but is there a single other plane in the retconned cosmology that clashes with his portfolio more? Sure it's good aligned, but it's about as far removed from martyrdom and perseverance as you can get. I think it would have been much more interesting if the event drew upon Helm's exemption from the avatar crisis and the atrocities his followers perpetuated in Maztica as a basis for Tyr's misgivings, and a growing fear of his defection to Bane or similar gesture of corruption/abandonment of the Triad as the motivation for their dispute; both carefully nurtured by Cyric of course. On the other hand, Tymora's apparent (and bizarre) crush on Helm makes me wonder if Cyric was really the one behind the Triad's conflict, rather than Sune, whose adoption of Ilmater and initial suggestion of the marriage seem kind of sketchy to me. Then there's the matter of Cyric alone being imprisoned. If he was in cahoots with Shar, then why not give her similar treatment? Her aid must have been substantial for Cyric to be able to slay a more powerful goddess on her own turf with all her little pet godlings along for the ride. Of course, I still have to hope that this imprisonment doesn't stop him from influencing Toril and his church and just means that he can't leave personally or manifest avatars but still watch and send spells and omens and all the stuff deities do that don't involve them appearing in person. I'd be surprised if there weren't consequences beyond the barring his manifestation, even if the 'crime' was of the same sort that Ao dismissed in Leira's case. I'd assume that he's essentially out of circulation, be it in person or by proxy, for a long while yet, or his faith will manage to persist, but in a dramatically reduced state. The consequences of the spoiler'd development wouldn't really amount to much of anything, otherwise.
Mirtek 09-14-07, 06:38 PM	I'm a fan of Cyric myself, and given the developments I was expecting am pleasantly surprised that he at least got to go out with a bang, if the imprisonment does actually take him out of the picture. Yes, if that means that he's truly out of 4e, I am not overly pleased with this result but at the same time also very happy that he was allowed to resign with such a bang. That's certainly better than a status quo were I always entered these boards with the the dread feeling that it might be this time that I finally have to read that Kemp let Mask regain intrigue (however unrealistic it would have been) ;) However, the Tyr vs. Helm scenario just seems daft... not that it could never ever happen, but how they made it happen is a joke. Either very daft or the most brilliant move we've ever seen from C.
Karsus the Mad 09-14-07, 07:20 PM	If he was in cahoots with Shar, then why not give her similar treatment? Her aid must have been substantial for Cyric to be able to slay a more powerful goddess It's due to weird gases coming from a few anuses in which such things are disgorged. While I don't mind Mystra being killed (I'm used to it after all these years.......), I am interested to know who is primarily responsible for turning FR into a fast food restaurant: Toss out something to be digested as cheap & quickly made as possible without regards to quality, health, or long standing reputation. Poor Ed....
Zandilar 09-14-07, 07:56 PM	Heya, I'm sticking this in a spoiler box. I'm not sure if it needs to be there, but it always helps to err on the side of caution. For those of you using tags because you don't know how to do the box... the box is easy - I really don't get the Tyr-Tymora-Helm triangle. I don't see Tymora falling for either god to begin with, so the marriage was strictly/primarily arranged - which is something that Sune would abhor in the first place. There's no way she's suggest such a stupid thing, unless she was influencing the weaker Tymora to have romantic feelings for two staid old men. (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is it with designers linking "nubile women" with "hairy old men"? I liked Tymora the way she was, free of entanglements!!). As for Ilmater in Brightwater? Sure, I can see it. Brightwater is a hopeful place, and one needs hope to endure and get through pain. GHotR also says that only the Greater deities survive, which means it's all pointless since Tymora's not a Greater deity (unless somehow, in the intervening years she got a rightful boost in power). Also Siamorphe, Ilmater, and other deities involved in the planes-exchange. So the whole story is pointless. OTOH, I can see Cyric conspiring with Shar to rid the world of Mystra. I hope the I-Hate-Mystra whiners are happy now.
Xaean 09-14-07, 08:04 PM	Without Mystra, without the Weave, what's left of Faerun?:weep: Is there still something to make the world special? Will Lolth absorb Eilistraee and the Sons of Hoar rule Aglarond? :eek: If this is going to happen, I'sure to set my next campaign on Krynn or Eberron!
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 08:19 PM	Without Mystra, without the Weave, what's left of Faerun?:weep: Is there still something to make the world special? Will Lolth absorb Eilistraee and the Sons of Hoar rule Aglarond? :eek: If this is going to happen, I'sure to set my next campaign on Krynn or Eberron! The Weave is a big part, but frankly... Outside of fluff, and some things, it<s a minor part, really (important in world, but mechanicaly not impacting the game much). Beside, not everything worked with the Weave; like Psionic and Incarnatum along some guys<s adaptations. Was it even in the first, Grey Box? Someone will take Mystra and her mantle for sure - the world NEED magic. Forgotten Realms will stay the Forgotten Realms, only a new era. Heck, I do not like the Fifth Age stuff for Dragonlance, basically, it is still Dragonlance - as the Greyhawk War did not destroy the same name world.
Xaean 09-14-07, 08:39 PM	The world should always be more important than the mechanics. I'd not choose a setting for the mechanical benefits it grants. And Mystra and her chosen have made Faerun what it is. While I do actually miss Paladine and Thakisis, the coming of Mina and other interessting characters and developements have somehow made up for the loss - though I'd not like to see Chemosh becoming the new King of Darkness, but that is just because I don't like death gods betraying their portfolio by creating undead.
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 08:46 PM	The world should always be more important than the mechanics. I'd not choose a setting for the mechanical benefits it grants. And Mystra and her chosen have made Faerun what it is. While I do actually miss Paladine and Thakisis, the coming of Mina and other interessting characters and developements have somehow made up for the loss - though I'd not like to see Chemosh becoming the new King of Darkness, but that is just because I don't like death gods betraying their portfolio by creating undead. You do realises that the famous NPC and gods have often also SENT away potential players? Look at the thread at Enworld about how to kill Elminster. If I had a glass of beer each time I heard about those <accursed, annoying pet Mary-Sue>, I would be an alcoholic...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-14-07, 08:59 PM	Heya, I'm sticking this in a spoiler box. I'm not sure if it needs to be there, but it always helps to err on the side of caution. For those of you using tags because you don't know how to do the box... the box is easy - Thank you!:) I couldn't remember how to do that. For the record: I agree that the idea of Tymora getting married doesn't make sense. She's had many romantic partners, and she also doesn't seem like she would want to settle down with--much less MARRY--any one god! I'm also surprised that Sune would suggest such a thing. And yes, I don't know why Siamorphe leaving a plane would be such a big deal!:rolleyes: I hope the I-Hate-Mystra whiners are happy now. Me too.:rolleyes:
HVulpes 09-14-07, 09:14 PM	Heya, I'm sticking this in a spoiler box. I'm not sure if it needs to be there, but it always helps to err on the side of caution. For those of you using tags because you don't know how to do the box... the box is easy - I really don't get the Tyr-Tymora-Helm triangle. I don't see Tymora falling for either god to begin with, so the marriage was strictly/primarily arranged - which is something that Sune would abhor in the first place. There's no way she's suggest such a stupid thing, unless she was influencing the weaker Tymora to have romantic feelings for two staid old men. (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is it with designers linking "nubile women" with "hairy old men"? I liked Tymora the way she was, free of entanglements!!). As for Ilmater in Brightwater? Sure, I can see it. Brightwater is a hopeful place, and one needs hope to endure and get through pain. GHotR also says that only the Greater deities survive, which means it's all pointless since Tymora's not a Greater deity (unless somehow, in the intervening years she got a rightful boost in power). Also Siamorphe, Ilmater, and other deities involved in the planes-exchange. So the whole story is pointless. OTOH, I can see Cyric conspiring with Shar to rid the world of Mystra. I hope the I-Hate-Mystra whiners are happy now. The actual quote on the boards is this: The book states that only the greater gods can protect their respective planes from the destruction. Which could means: The only the planes belonging to Greater powers will remain. Not that the less powerful gods will die. It could just mean that lesser powers would have to bunk with the greater power most closest to their ideals. Remember it says planes not gods.
Xaean 09-14-07, 09:24 PM	You do realises that the famous NPC and gods have often also SENT away potential players? Look at the thread at Enworld about how to kill Elminster. If I had a glass of beer each time I heard about those <accursed, annoying pet Mary-Sue>, I would be an alcoholic... Yes, and I'm fairly annoyed by these never ending complaints - other settings have good deities and powerful good NPCs - like metallic dragons - and hardly anyone complains. Those hack&slayers who have the desire to kill Elminster should get a group of like-minded players and have their way - maybe Wizards some day releases a module with that aim - I wouldn't buy, you can be sure of that. But turning the whole setting around just because of their constant complaining is a bit too much of a comprimise. If someone doesn't like the NPCs and gods of the realms, he or she can still play Eberron, or maybe Greyhawk or Dragonlance and be happy with it.
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 10:05 PM	Yes, and I'm fairly annoyed by these never ending complaints - other settings have good deities and powerful good NPCs - like metallic dragons - and hardly anyone complains. Those hack&slayers who have the desire to kill Elminster should get a group of like-minded players and have their way - maybe Wizards some day releases a module with that aim - I wouldn't buy, you can be sure of that. But turning the whole setting around just because of their constant complaining is a bit too much of a comprimise. If someone doesn't like the NPCs and gods of the realms, he or she can still play Eberron, or maybe Greyhawk or Dragonlance and be happy with it. It is however easy to explain all of this by incomprehension, as a good numbers of them come from PLAYER OF FR, past or present. You saw the thread about the SImbul and her visions of the npc? Long debate, which show it is deeper than that. They points the GH and its Circle of Eight as a conterexample, as nonintrusive or obstruve dudes. Also, the problems is a part of the novel-induced personalities and all, percieved as Mary sues and gary stews, pet characters. And also, their overall overused, percieved or real. Maybe the complains have a grain of truth, maybe... The new changes are acclaimated by the pro- side as fixing a bit this side.
Lord Karsus 09-14-07, 10:54 PM	-I know I'm repeating myself, but I really am stunned... -I need to ask, because I wasn't around during the conversion from 2e to 3e, and sometimes, because of it, the lines between where one ended and the other began blurs, but was the conversion from 2e to 3e so...WHAM!, for a lack of better words?
MaskedOne 09-14-07, 11:53 PM	Before I make radical decisions on FR puchases, does anyone know if Mystra's death this time through is supposed to be permanent? As Mystra, the Weave and certain mages of note are all that truly tie my interest to Toril, I'm somewhat less than amused.
Paix 09-15-07, 12:06 AM	It is most annoying that a company cannot even provide a cohesive preview, or review, or commentary or 'blogspeak' or whatever they wish to call it, of its products on its own website or boards, and instead restricts itself to making some '4e boards' that lack complete input from any designers, inviting users to speculate ad nauseam. To get any glipmpses one has to navigate a labyrinth of links between migraine inducing color schemed websites (Gleemax), D&D Insider (whatever that is), these boards and a plethora of external links to independent forums. A very unprofessional state of affairs. To answer the question above, no; the change between the second and third editions had nothing like that. Having read the linked thread at those other boards, I have to agree that the plot outlines as presented are hardly convincing from a story telling perspective and only make sense if approached from the 'we must reset the Realms for the new edition whatever the cost' point of view. In any case myself and my group enjoy the older plane setup, we care not for anthropomorphic devils and even though we had no specific aversion to pantheon changes, wiping out most of the Realms through this 'Spellplague' with a poor excuse of events leaves us disinterested. We must therefore part company with the product line. Best wishes nonetheless. To avoid derailing the thread if anyone is aware of more sane set of boards for the occasional input and questions about the game, I would appreciate a message with a link.
Dark Wizard 09-15-07, 12:27 AM	You do realises that the famous NPC and gods have often also SENT away potential players? Look at the thread at Enworld about how to kill Elminster. If I had a glass of beer each time I heard about those <accursed, annoying pet Mary-Sue>, I would be an alcoholic... The real problem is that WotC allows just a few characters to completely dominate the common perception of a setting. Why is that? Simple, it is because of RSEs where the epic levels and the gods are common participants. Epic levels and gods should never be common in events. Events like the Time of Troubles ruined the Realms. This spellplague is along the same lines of that, so take that for what you will. The characters and personalities of the NPCs and gods are just fine if taken for their sourcebook interpretation. When revealed in a novel with full disclosure they lose a lot of their original flavor, which is one of mystery and menace (yes even the good aligned ones). This is all hinted in posts from the designers and to some extent in some sourcebooks. Unfortunately most sourcebooks don't enhance this interpretation. The novels do the opposite by making them silly. This latest deal with the Spellplague unfortunately takes a page from the novels. They keep Elminster and authorized the deaths of Khelban and Halaster. The latter two, if portrayed well could put a lot more gray into the Realms while still maintaining their heroic, iconic status. They offed Helm but kept Tyr. Helm was also one of the grayer good deities. So far it seems WotC wants to make the Realms more edgy but have taken the exact opposite steps to achieving that. Instead they elect to just do some random changes aimed to creating a sense of freshness but not a real significant change. It is a very dangerous path to take. They risk, alienating the old fans, but really haven't changed enough to interested disgruntled ones. Some sound interested now upon news of the death of a few gods, but once they see Elminster has returned in 4E, most will just turn away again. I don't have anything in particular against Elminster, but if it came to a choice of a few problem characters versus most of the rest of the Realms, I think those few characters can take a hit for the team.
Dimensional_Drifter 09-15-07, 02:01 AM	More realms-shaking events... more change... too much change. Part of me is starting to believe that they are killing too much of the realms. Some change is good, but many times too much change, or changing the wrong things will ruin something.
MarkusTay63 09-15-07, 02:20 AM	-I need to ask, because I wasn't around during the conversion from 2e to 3e, and sometimes, because of it, the lines between where one ended and the other began blurs, but was the conversion from 2e to 3e so...WHAM!, for a lack of better words?In a word... NO. 2e to 3e was mild - in fact, the biggest complaint was a complete LACK of explanations for the changes. Between 1e and 2e people cried as well, but the changes really weren't that bad in the greater scheme of things, and had little to no effect on PCs (unless you worshipped one of the fallen gods). Even so, 99% of the Pantheon was left intact, and the demi-human ones were untouched. This across-the-board whole-sale slaughter of the devine is absolutely... juvenile, for lack of a better word. I just picture a small child in my head playing nicely with his toys, and when the grownups aren't looking he starts to smash them all with a hammer. So, who was the mean little kid who didn't want any of us playing with HIS toys anymore? :ahem:
Yanagita Kunio 09-15-07, 02:46 AM	Harumph. At the risk of cynicism, it's pretty much what I expected...dealing with a 4e mechanical overhaul of magic within canon was going to require something to happen to or with Mystra. Alll things considered, I'd have preferred some sort of clash between Shar, Selune, and Mystra--sort of a end-of-era climax that shuffles the nature of magic by recompiling the basic "components"--but I guess it's okay that they actually give Cyric some teeth rather than keep him as the Greater Pratfall of the Faerunian pantheon...but apparently he's then immediately stuck in some deific clothes hamper. My optimistic--or is it even more witheringly cynical?--guess, though, is that Mystra's death will be ameliorated...doubtless in the course of a quartet or three of novels (following the quartet or three of novels about her death and its aftershocks). Either a new Mystra will manifest somehow--the lady does have back-up servers...ahem, "Chosen"...for a reason--or some figure will rise up and take the mantle of the Weave. Placing all bets....
Zandilar 09-15-07, 08:12 AM	Heya, Thank you!:) I couldn't remember how to do that. For the record: I agree that the idea of Tymora getting married doesn't make sense. She's had many romantic partners, and she also doesn't seem like she would want to settle down with--much less MARRY--any one god! I'm also surprised that Sune would suggest such a thing. And yes, I don't know why Siamorphe leaving a plane would be such a big deal!:rolleyes: And after Helm dies, it looks as if Tymora meekly follows Tyr to the House of the Triad. That is so out of character for her that it makes me want to scream and weep at the same time. I can kind of understand Siamorphe in Brightwater (nobles are just as often associated with decadance and hedonism as they are to nobility and honor) , but I can't understand if it's really that big of an imbalance to Tyr and his friends to loose her. Siamorphe is a demipower will a small worship base, Tymora is an Intermediate deity who is quite possibly on the verge of being a Greater deity herself (she was the one behind the formation of Brightwater, and no less a deity than Sune herself has looked at the way Tymora gains and retains worshippers and started to follow suit). If anything, Tymora going to the House of the Triad is the imbalance. (Yes, Tymora is my favorite, I'll admit that, even more so than Mystra, Eilistraee, and Sharess.) -I know I'm repeating myself, but I really am stunned... I hate to admit it, but I was almost in tears last night. Yes, over a game setting! And the intrigue I feel (to see how it will all play out) makes me feel disloyal and therefore guilty. (Right now, a greater part of me wants to smack the developers for some of the stupidest storylines I have ever read in my entire 35 years... I mean honestly, Tyr and TYMORA?! What was Sune thinking!!) -I need to ask, because I wasn't around during the conversion from 2e to 3e, and sometimes, because of it, the lines between where one ended and the other began blurs, but was the conversion from 2e to 3e so...WHAM!, for a lack of better words? No, it wasn't. It was far gentler than even the Time of Troubles. I think the big things were the RotAW and Death of the Dragon. Before I make radical decisions on FR puchases, does anyone know if Mystra's death this time through is supposed to be permanent? I guess it's supposed to be permanent, since the spoilers seem to say that the Weave is no more. As Mystra, the Weave and certain mages of note are all that truly tie my interest to Toril, I'm somewhat less than amused. You and me both. :raincloud To avoid derailing the thread if anyone is aware of more sane set of boards for the occasional input and questions about the game, I would appreciate a message with a link. Try here: Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/default.asp). Harumph. <snips inside the sblock> My optimistic--or is it even more witheringly cynical?--guess, though, is that Mystra's death will be ameliorated...doubtless in the course of a quartet or three of novels (following the quartet or three of novels about her death and its aftershocks). Either a new Mystra will manifest somehow--the lady does have back-up servers...ahem, "Chosen"...for a reason--or some figure will rise up and take the mantle of the Weave. It would seem, as I mentioned above, that the Weave is no more. I doubt Mystra is coming back.
MaskedOne 09-15-07, 09:27 AM	Ouch, I think I'm going to be hoping you're wrong Zandilar. Otherwise, well 4E itself sounds faintly interesting, 4E FR sounds like the end of my appreciation for the setting. Anyone know a decent third party setting since if I have no interest whatsoever in Ebberon.
MerrikCale 09-15-07, 01:26 PM	Ouch, I think I'm going to be hoping you're wrong Zandilar. Otherwise, well 4E itself sounds faintly interesting, 4E FR sounds like the end of my appreciation for the setting. Anyone know a decent third party setting since if I have no interest whatsoever in Ebberon. ptolus or maybe mystara
Markustay 09-15-07, 01:36 PM	Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed is good, as are most of his products (like Ptolus). Unfortunetly, the majority of the settings out there right now all have that 'after the great war' scenario going on (WoD, Eberron, Dawnforge, Blood Throne, Iron Kingdoms...even Greyhawk, etc...), so if you don't like it in FR, you're not going to like those either. Although Warcraft D20 is also "after the war", it is an excellent Steam-punk setting; I'm thinking of switching to that if I don't like FR 4e. Swashbucling Adventures/7th sea is a great Renaissance-era setting, if you wanna go the whole 'Pirates Route'. Low Magic, but lots of interesting melee options. Finally, we have Ed Greenwood's Castlemourn, which I hear is EXCELLENT. I haven't got a hold of it yet, but it is on my 'must have' list. And it's by Ed... how can you possibly go wrong? I might just do a Homebrew myself, borrowing from everything I like, or work on a campaign in a collaborative effort (like I'm doing with the Utter East thread). On Topic: I have a feeling that if the 'merger of two worlds' turns out to be more then a social statement, we are going to get some new gods from the 'other' world. Considering that Obad-Hai was mentioned in conjunction with the 'new' Elves, Greyhawk is starting to look like a strong contender. Also, why was Cyric locked up? I know he's a d__k and I personally hate him, but wasn't he just acting within his portfolio? Didn't we go through this before, and he was found innocent of any crime? He's just doing what he's supposed to do... where the hell was Ao during all of this? Playing cards with Io, Ptah, and the Celestial Emperor? Speaking of which, magic outside of Faerūn proper doesn't always rely on the weave, so does that mean the Maztican Plumaweavers are now more powerful then other Mages? Won't they want 'payback'? What happened in the East? Was the Celestial Emperor able to hold things together for the lands under his jurisdiction? Did Fate step in and save Zakhara? Mystra was not the 'end all' goddess people always thought, so whats going to happen to the regions that followed other traditions? :confused:
SgtAnjay 09-15-07, 01:59 PM	Also, why was Cyric locked up? I know he's a d__k and I personally hate him, but wasn't he just acting within his portfolio? Didn't we go through this before, and he was found innocent of any crime? He's just doing what he's supposed to do... where the hell was Ao during all of this?No, we didn't go through this before. The Trial of Cyric was about whether or not Cyric was actually following his portfolio (as adjudicated by Ao) or whether he was just driven to those actions by insanity. This is quite different. Cyric was indeed acting within his portfolio.....and the gods who imprisoned him were acting within theirs. No need for Ao to get involved at all.
ElberethSilverleaf 09-15-07, 04:00 PM	According to rumors Mystra is dead in 4e and the Weave doesn't exist. My question is what happens to the shadow weave and Shar? I never liked the whole shadow weave/Shar plot device but I'm curious as to how everything is going to be retconned.
Vasyek 09-15-07, 04:23 PM	No, we didn't go through this before. We sort of did go through this when he offed Leira. Of course, the fact that Ao saw no reason to punish him for the act was by no means equivalent to him forbidding Cyric's peers to do anything about it then, and given the consequences of his latest exploit I doubt Ao's reaction would have been closer to support of Tyr & co.'s decision than ambivalence... unless he didn't consider the spellplague and the collapse of non-greater god's divine realms to constitute a threat to the balance for some inane reason. No need for Ao to get involved at all. That depends on how interested Ao was or wasn't in seeing the punishment enforced over the intended period of time. Tyr's lot running into significant trouble from the remaining big bads or random calamities could undermine their ability to enforce the charges, after all.
GothicDan 09-15-07, 07:53 PM	Wow. All of the deity slaying, and Kelemvor is still around? Goodbye.
MarkusTay63 09-15-07, 09:28 PM	Did someone mention Kelem...zzzzzzz.... :zzz:
Xaean 09-15-07, 10:18 PM	Ouch, I think I'm going to be hoping you're wrong Zandilar. Otherwise, well 4E itself sounds faintly interesting, 4E FR sounds like the end of my appreciation for the setting. Anyone know a decent third party setting since if I have no interest whatsoever in Ebberon. I'd recommend Dragonlance - which I will likely focus my campaigns on, if the spoilers on Faerun are true. Good novels and sourcebooks, interessting races and new classes, great artwork. If you like steampunk settings, you should try Iron Kingdoms. Any setting created by Monte Cook, such as Ptolus or Arcana Evolved is good one. All of the deity slaying, and Kelemvor is still around? At least they kept the most reasonable death god in a D&D setting and resisted the urge to replace him with an insane zombie master, such as Myrkul was.
MarkusTay63 09-15-07, 10:44 PM	I vote for 'Jack the Pumpkin King' for 4e! :D And his arch-nemesis, Ogey-Boogey.
GothicDan 09-15-07, 11:37 PM	At least they kept the most reasonable death god in a D&D setting and resisted the urge to replace him with an insane zombie master, such as Myrkul was. "Reasonable"? Have you been hitting the pipe again? Also, Myrkul wasn't an insane zombie monster. That would be Velsharoon. Myrkul was actually portrayed very calm, logical, and manipulative. When I think of Velsharoon I get "LAWLS EVIL CACKLE!" My DM in a 3E homebrew let me play a Priest of Myrkul after he read his entry in F&A, because he seemed "almost Neutral." Mind you, this was back in the days of 2E, when Undead weren't innately evil.
MarkusTay63 09-16-07, 01:32 AM	Yeah, I always felt that Myrkul had that 'Hades' feel to him.
LordVhoori 09-16-07, 03:52 PM	quick query, are the seldarine and selune still around?
DarkSongKnight 09-16-07, 04:40 PM	quick query, are the seldarine and selune still around? As far as anyone knows, yes, they are still around. The elven pantheon hasn't been mentioned at all, though there are several interestingly named years involving elves coming up.
Xaean 09-16-07, 07:51 PM	"Reasonable"? Have you been hitting the pipe again? Also, Myrkul wasn't an insane zombie monster. That would be Velsharoon. Myrkul was actually portrayed very calm, logical, and manipulative. When I think of Velsharoon I get "LAWLS EVIL CACKLE!" My DM in a 3E homebrew let me play a Priest of Myrkul after he read his entry in F&A, because he seemed "almost Neutral." Mind you, this was back in the days of 2E, when Undead weren't innately evil. This is not about good and evil - the alignment of an undead creature matters little in this case - I'd put portfolio first in such a case. And the fact remains that undeath - for whatever reason - is cheating death, an act no god of death, good, neutral or evil, would tolerate. Baelnorns and other good alignend undead are no exception.
MerrikCale 09-16-07, 09:41 PM	quick query, are the seldarine and selune still around? what makes you think they are not
Dark Wizard 09-16-07, 10:51 PM	Even with the death of several dwarven deities, they're still a pantheon as far as we can tell, right?
Lord Karsus 09-16-07, 11:37 PM	:shifty: -Hey, everyone, I am preparing a massive Epic ritual to reverse all of the damage that has been done. If anyone wants to participate, please, stand in this circle. :: Makes a few lines in the dirt ::
Dark Wizard 09-17-07, 12:02 AM	I have spell slots to spare, should off load these old things before this system expires in 4E.
BadCatMan 09-17-07, 12:57 AM	You'll need a bigger circle. The Equator should do. In fact, everyone's already in it. Or alternatively, just draw the circle around WotC headquarters and invert it.
Lord Karsus 09-17-07, 12:47 PM	-No, no...Everyone needs to stand in this circle. I'll explain why later. Just stand on the line, and give your spellcasting powers to me, for me to use in my res- er, spell...:shifty:
Valgard 09-17-07, 01:05 PM	-No, no...Everyone needs to stand in this circle. I'll explain why later. Just stand on the line, and give your spellcasting powers to me, for me to use in my res- er, spell...:shifty:I'm entering IN the circle... but I'm going to seek out for some holly and mistletoe...:lop:
MarkusTay63 09-17-07, 10:42 PM	I jusy KNEW he was going to pull a 'Cyric'.... :crazy: -Hey, everyone, I am preparing a massive Epic ritual to reverse all of the damage that has been done. If anyone wants to participate, please, stand in this circle.I'm going to work with Dan on a more scientific approach... I've attached a pair of jumper cables to my old Grey Box and THIS HAPPENED. (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www-bdnew.fnal.gov/hq/mcginnis/rfcourse/RF_Meas_Class/young-frankenstein.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www-bdnew.fnal.gov/hq/mcginnis/rfcourse/RF_Meas_Class/PPE.htm&h=232&w=425&sz=15&tbnid=8FPLjcGh-BABbM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyoung%2Bfrankenstein%2Bpics %26um%3D1&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2) The expariment was a success.... Bwahahahaha!
MaskedOne 09-17-07, 11:16 PM	Female voice comments from outside the circle, "Lord Karsus, if you're planning a ressurection without me then I will be deeply hurt." *MaskedOne appears under vastly heavier shielding than normal and the faintest hints of divine power before continuing in his normal voice* Of course, if you're willing to stay out of certain affairs and more precisely keep Shar and Bane out of them then at the Lady's command *casual gesture and Velsharoon appears bound within an intricate circle scribed in Silver Flame* The traitor's power is no longer of use and the bindings allow him to be used in place of a decent supply of secondary casters, regardless of whether he agrees to the procedure. Think the reborn divinity of Karsus can let me fulfill certain standing orders of the Lady in peace?
Phaele 09-18-07, 12:38 PM	If we are randomly murdering Deities for a variety of Bizarre reasons... how about we resurrect an old favorite of mine. Karsus should come back via the newly reformed Netherese Empire and a majorly *epic* Epic Spell before 4e slaughters Epic Spellcasting. Its as believable as other things we've seen in GHotR. Besides... Karsus might not mess up Magic any more than the Spellplague will. That is just my 2 cents, granted...coming from someone who is playing a Netherese Arcanist... maybe I am biased. On the bright side, without tossing in a spoiler box... with the certain magical deific issues... I hope we see something akin to the AD&D Wild Mage or Wild Magic tables come back in. Those were so much fun... and the developers walked right into that ^_^
MarkusTay63 09-18-07, 02:53 PM	I don't think the Karsus enclave got along with the Shade enclave, but I could be wrong there. Plus, time heals all wounds. ;) I want RF to merge with the Moorcockian universe, so we can get really cool gods loke Arioch and Xiombarg. :D After all, thats where Ed's original Elemental gods were from.
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 04:22 PM	I don't think the Karsus enclave got along with the Shade enclave, but I could be wrong there. Plus, time heals all wounds. ;) -If it weren't for me, that whippersnapper Shadow, or Telamont, or whatever it is that he calls himself nowadays wouldn't be doing anything, except maybe flipping burgers at McDragons. I also performed the guy's marriage ceremony. And, you know how he paid me? By skipping town...:nonono:
Karsus the Mad 09-18-07, 05:11 PM	-No, no...Everyone needs to stand in this circle. I'll explain why later. Just stand on the line, and give your spellcasting powers to me, for me to use in my res- er, spell...:shifty: <burns eight epic slots and 724 levels worth of wizard spell slots.> I'll keep the sorcerer slots in reserve...
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 06:38 PM	<burns eight epic slots and 724 levels worth of wizard spell slots.> I'll keep the sorcerer slots in reserve... -KtM, save your power! They are all sacrificing their power, so that we might take it for ourselves, and resurrect ourselves. Then, with Mystra out of the way, we'll be able to reclaim what was once ours... ...Oops...I forgot to specify that the spell was intended for just you, KtM, and not everyone... -Please, everyone, disregard what you just read! Nothing to see here...;)
MarkusTay63 09-19-07, 11:38 AM	Just the fact that you chose THAT particular spell... :nonono: You need to brush up on your GH history - Rary was the greatest traitor ever known. He attacked his fellow Circle of Eight members, killed two, and mortally wounded Bigby! So... I guess considering what your attempting... it's pretty fitting. :rolleyes: Rary would have made a GREAT Archwizard. :smirk:
Valgard 09-19-07, 03:37 PM	-KtM, save your power! They are all sacrificing their power, so that we might take it for ourselves, and resurrect ourselves. Then, with Mystra out of the way, we'll be able to reclaim what was once ours... ...Oops...I forgot to specify that the spell was intended for just you, KtM, and not everyone... -Please, everyone, disregard what you just read! Nothing to see here...;) There it seems you belong to the borg* race. *Star Trek: The Next Generation
Spelldancer 09-20-07, 12:03 PM	Hmm this has me thinking even more. If this is all true, perhaps Isis will come forward with Thoth to rebalance things out. Though.. what little I have read so far from these spoilers has me really.. really.. really worried about FR4e.
Lord Karsus 09-20-07, 01:02 PM	Though.. what little I have read so far from these spoilers has me really.. really.. really worried about FR4e. -You and everybody else.
Asgetrion 09-20-07, 05:47 PM	I have to say it... do you see? I'm an Iron Maiden fan: If Myrkul raises again: 2 Minutes to Midnight :D How about 'Don't Fear the Reaper' by Blue Oyster Cult? :coolcthul
MarkusTay63 09-20-07, 09:38 PM	Are we doing music again? :D I call this "Elminster's Theme" He take the thunder from the mountain He take a lightning from the sky He bring a strong man to his begging knee He make the young girl's mama cry. You got to hidey-hide You got to jump and run You got to hidey-hidey-hide The old man is down the road... He got the voices speakin' riddles He got the eye as black as coal He got a suitcase covered with rattlesnake hide And he stands right in the road. You got to hidey-hide You got to jump up run away You got to hidey-hidey-hide The old man is down the road. With apologies to John Fogerty. ;) I still think Barry McGuire's Eve of Destruction should be the new FR boards theme song. Don’t you understand what I’m tryin’ to say Can’t you feel the fears I’m feelin’ today? If the button is pushed, there’s no runnin’ away There’ll be no one to save, with the world in a grave [Take a look around ya boy, it's bound to scare ya boy] And you tell me Over and over and over again, my friend Ah, you don’t believe We’re on the eve of destruction.
GothicDan 09-21-07, 01:34 AM	This is not about good and evil - the alignment of an undead creature matters little in this case - I'd put portfolio first in such a case. And the fact remains that undeath - for whatever reason - is cheating death, an act no god of death, good, neutral or evil, would tolerate. Baelnorns and other good alignend undead are no exception. Late reply. "Cheating death" implies there's some sort of "right" path for one's soul to take, either morally or due to fate. We know that there's nothing resembling any universal morality as espoused by the entire Faeurnian pantheon. We know (from Ed) that the concept of 'Fate' doesn't exist. What happens, happens; there's no 'it is MEANT to be this way' from an objective point of view. You may feel differently, but in doing so it makes your opinions concerning possible death deities completely invalid with the canon of the setting, so your argument would be nontopical. The fact that Myrkul exemplifies this universal fact of Realmspace - he never claimed what he did to be 'right,' righteous, or the like - is one of the reasons I like him so much. Kelemvor, with his emphasis on universal right and wrong, and death vs. undeath, only adds to the terrible Pseudo-Abrahamic foil pasted onto the Realms with the Time of Troubles, and it shows a complete ignorance of how death (Negative Energy) works on a multiverse-wide scale. Heck, even if you use the Tree, the Negative Energy Plane is still the same, and it still NATURALLY draws and spontaneously creates undead creatures. So, the only possible meaning of 'cheating death' you could mean in regards to the actual Realms would be 'cheating' meaning 'altering the probability of future events.' Undead naturally arising are very rare, but do exist, just as Wizards/Sorcerers are very rare, alter reality in often-miraculous, concerted ways, and so on. I've been spending a lot of time recently with a guest speaker at my school, David Krauss, an internationally renowned speaker on both particle cosmology and the role of science in society. As he put it, science is what WORKS. It's what we observe to happen. The 'science' of Faerun would thus take into account magic and undeath. To assume any rightness or wrongness to a possible aspect of reality is projecting personal biases onto it. Undeath works; it's allowed. It's natural in that the laws of science/magic can cause it to happen. One's moral BELIEF about it, in character or in-world, has nothing to do with what we observe to be true by the setting's own expressions of science/magic. This actually sort of makes me sad. I guess Krauss is right that America is suffering from a severe lack of analytical ability and the inability to actually regard science as what it is, rather than what they want it to be.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-21-07, 01:27 PM	This actually sort of makes me sad. I guess Krauss is right that America is suffering from a severe lack of analytical ability and the inability to actually regard science as what it is, rather than what they want it to be. Well, to be fair America is not a sentient entity.;)
MarkusTay63 09-21-07, 02:05 PM	Well, we know the government isn't. ;) @Dan - I would agree that 'stupid' undead would be the province of a god of death, but I think that 'free-willed' undead would be a form of cheating death. Not incorporeal -thats like a punishment, but things like Mummies, Vampires, Liches are a very grey area. Especially Liches, since it is a free choice made by the person to become so. There are certain types of Free-willed undead that would not go against that; the type that are actually a dead body possessed by something else (like in Pet Cemetary.) Basically, I don't think the god of death would really care about what happens to the fleshy vessel after death, but I can see him/her becoming VERY annoyed at someone staying 'alive' after the bodies death. But it would also depend on the god, as well.
GothicDan 09-21-07, 10:49 PM	That's precisely it, Markus. It would depend on the God. Myrkul knew that. Kelemvor doesn't. It's like a proper scientist watching an engineer scream about how quantum mechanics "isn't right."
18DELTA 09-22-07, 11:20 AM	As long as TALOS the DESTROYER is still around, I will be just peachy. Thats who is getting the blame for whats going to happen in the REALMS. Yea, time to wear the BLAME THROWER in the REALMS. Human nature at its finest. Lets play the BLAME GAME, TALOS come on down!;) :P Heck he probably having nocturnal emissions right now, about the DEATH & DESTRUCTION THATS GOING ON IN THE REALMS.:eek:
GothicDan 09-22-07, 11:48 AM	I bet Talos will get more screen-time in this edition, given as he's one of the only three Greater Gods of evil still left in the Faerunian pantheon. Hm, Bane, Shar, Talos... LE, NE, CE. How poetic.
Lykor 09-22-07, 12:28 PM	I hate to be completely cynical, but does anyone else think that they only reason they are "imprisoning" Cyric rather than killing him --and considering how easy it is for a god (Lliera, Torm, the drow pantheon, most non-standard racial dieties) to kill another-- is so they can use his coming back for a 5e RSE?
MerrikCale 09-22-07, 01:12 PM	I hate to be completely cynical, but does anyone else think that they only reason they are "imprisoning" Cyric rather than killing him --and considering how easy it is for a god (Lliera, Torm, the drow pantheon, most non-standard racial dieties) to kill another-- is so they can use his coming back for a 5e RSE? or a 4.5 or a RSE event
Meldread 09-22-07, 01:14 PM	I hate to be completely cynical, but does anyone else think that they only reason they are "imprisoning" Cyric rather than killing him --and considering how easy it is for a god (Lliera, Torm, the drow pantheon, most non-standard racial dieties) to kill another-- is so they can use his coming back for a 5e RSE? Nope, I believe it will either be the basis of a super adventure module or a novel trilogy ("The Return of Cyric").
The Ubbergeek 09-22-07, 01:25 PM	@Dan - Kelemvor is not about good or evil, but natural order and the inevitablity of death. Nothing very Abrahamish (what is wrong with Abrahamic religions ideas if they fit, anyway?), except the death angel Asrael.
Amon Hok 09-22-07, 03:28 PM	So the Dwarf pantheon is gone? How about the Gnome, Hafling and Goblinoid pantheons?
Markustay 09-22-07, 03:54 PM	Gnomes won't make it into the initial release of 4e, so every one of them suddenly Feezes and remains in stasis until the PHB II comes out. :P
GothicDan 09-22-07, 05:15 PM	@Dan - Kelemvor is not about good or evil, but natural order and the inevitablity of death. Nothing very Abrahamish (what is wrong with Abrahamic religions ideas if they fit, anyway?), except the death angel Asrael. Three strikes and you're out. You're back on the Ignore List for once again proving your inability to read. I didn't mention good or evil anywhere.
18DELTA 09-22-07, 05:32 PM	I hate to be completely cynical, but does anyone else think that they only reason they are "imprisoning" Cyric rather than killing him --and considering how easy it is for a god (Lliera, Torm, the drow pantheon, most non-standard racial dieties) to kill another-- is so they can use his coming back for a 5e RSE? Didnt you hear,:incog: He is now the GOD in an IRON MASK.:incog: As in the GOD MASK! He will be looking for him, & he will always be right in front of his FACE!:eek: ;) Like that hasnt happened before with Cyric &Mask huh? He is the 4.25 RSE, or is that 4.30 RSE?
Mirtek 09-22-07, 05:49 PM	Actually we still don't know that being locked away means that he's out of the picture. This new developement could mean that Cyric is now playing the same role than Oerth's Tharizdun. Locked away, but still interacting with the world. Maybe his latest coup made him so powerfull that his imprisonment was only possible through a clever trick of the other three GGs who imprisoned him and that once he's out, he will go on a killing spree through the pantheon. So Cyric could be the dark cloud over the horizon, ready to cover all of Toril with a killing storm and extinguish the last few points of light. The cults working toward the release of Cyric could be the utlimate harbingers of apocalypse to be stopped at all cost!
Xaean 09-22-07, 09:18 PM	Late reply. "Cheating death" implies there's some sort of "right" path for one's soul to take, either morally or due to fate. We know that there's nothing resembling any universal morality as espoused by the entire Faeurnian pantheon. We know (from Ed) that the concept of 'Fate' doesn't exist. What happens, happens; there's no 'it is MEANT to be this way' from an objective point of view. You may feel differently, but in doing so it makes your opinions concerning possible death deities completely invalid with the canon of the setting, so your argument would be nontopical. The fact that Myrkul exemplifies this universal fact of Realmspace - he never claimed what he did to be 'right,' righteous, or the like - is one of the reasons I like him so much. Kelemvor, with his emphasis on universal right and wrong, and death vs. undeath, only adds to the terrible Pseudo-Abrahamic foil pasted onto the Realms with the Time of Troubles, and it shows a complete ignorance of how death (Negative Energy) works on a multiverse-wide scale. Heck, even if you use the Tree, the Negative Energy Plane is still the same, and it still NATURALLY draws and spontaneously creates undead creatures. So, the only possible meaning of 'cheating death' you could mean in regards to the actual Realms would be 'cheating' meaning 'altering the probability of future events.' Undead naturally arising are very rare, but do exist, just as Wizards/Sorcerers are very rare, alter reality in often-miraculous, concerted ways, and so on. I've been spending a lot of time recently with a guest speaker at my school, David Krauss, an internationally renowned speaker on both particle cosmology and the role of science in society. As he put it, science is what WORKS. It's what we observe to happen. The 'science' of Faerun would thus take into account magic and undeath. To assume any rightness or wrongness to a possible aspect of reality is projecting personal biases onto it. Undeath works; it's allowed. It's natural in that the laws of science/magic can cause it to happen. One's moral BELIEF about it, in character or in-world, has nothing to do with what we observe to be true by the setting's own expressions of science/magic. This actually sort of makes me sad. I guess Krauss is right that America is suffering from a severe lack of analytical ability and the inability to actually regard science as what it is, rather than what they want it to be. While undead creatures may be occasionally be created "naturally" by the influence of the negative energy plane, the god of death is not a scientist studiing the multiverse but an active force shaping it. Undead creatures are those that escape his grasp after their death and as such it is most logical that he should be their "natural enemy" - which is not about morality in any way - morality is always about good and evil or at least about the perception of good and evil. Science is interessting to Oghma and Deneir, maybe Savras and Mystra and I don't think they should oppose undead - at least not in a way Kelemvor does. I can see in no way why Kelemvor would be "pseudo-Abrahamic". What is more pseudo-Abrahamic? Death as an inevitalbe force of nature or Death as an evil that has to be defeated by some hero/savior?
Lord Karsus 09-22-07, 09:54 PM	What is more pseudo-Abrahamic? Death as an inevitalbe force of nature or Death as an evil that has to be defeated by some hero/savior? -The latter, which makes me think of Kelemvor more than it does Myrkul.
GothicDan 09-22-07, 10:04 PM	Death as an inevitalbe force of nature or Death as an evil that has to be defeated by some hero/savior? The latter, which Kelemvor is making himself out to be. Ed's already made several replies about Undeath and 'nature' in FR. Bottom line: if it happens, it happens. Each deity may choose to take moral stances on what happens, but NONE of them are 'truly' correct in an ethical sense of the term. As to the Undead escaping his grasp? The ONLY souls that go to Kelemvor are the False and the Faithless. According to Ed, that number makes up a ridiculously miniscule portion of FR's population. Those who don't believe in and at least pay homage to some of the deities are rare enough to be considered insane. That's FR. I'm not sure what world you're gaming in.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-22-07, 10:19 PM	So the Dwarf pantheon is gone? Not gone...but (unforgivably) pared down.
ElberethSilverleaf 09-22-07, 10:19 PM	Xaean and Lord Karsus being a Jew I come from the true and original Abrahamic faith. To us death is just a process of life, it is neither good nor evil but a natural process. Accept it because it is inevitable. There are no real world versions of "undeath", ie. lichs, vampires etc., but I can tell you most of my Jewish relatives, gamer friends, and collegues would view such creatures as evil abominations who are trying to selfishly circumvent the natural order of life and death....
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-22-07, 10:23 PM	Having studied parts of the Old Testament (not making a claim to be an expert, but I am interested in the subject), I can also say that death didn't seem to be portrayed as something "evil" in those books, it was just a natural part of life.
Lord Karsus 09-22-07, 10:31 PM	Xaean and Lord Karsus being a Jew I come from the true and original Abrahamic faith. -No, I come from the true and original Abrahamic faith! :P -Kelemvor seeks to end death/undeath. That rings very true to what the Moshiach is supposed to do. The dead are also supposed to rise up after He comes, which again, makes me think of Kelemvor rather than Myrkul.
ElberethSilverleaf 09-22-07, 10:57 PM	Karsus I wish you a good Yom Kippur! Did you fast too?
Lord Karsus 09-22-07, 11:03 PM	Karsus I wish you a good Yom Kippur! Did you fast too? -Mostly. I completely forgot that it was a holiday, so I had about 1/3 of a bowl of Frosted Mini Wheats before I remembered.
ElberethSilverleaf 09-22-07, 11:37 PM	Yeah I wasn't strictly observant either as I work till midnight in the IT dept of a major corporation. It was hard as heck as Friday nights are pizza nights and I had to sit and work while everyone else was pigging out and the smell was making my stomach growl! I went home and took an Ambien to get to sleep real quick. LOL
ElberethSilverleaf 09-22-07, 11:44 PM	Back a little more on subject. In my homebrew campaigns, I've use Hel as my goddess of death. Sorta like the Norse idea of Hel from the original Dieties and Demigods. My exception is that she is Lawful Neutral, reflecting that death and dying comes to everyone regardless of social status or race(lawful) and that death and entropy is a natural and healthy part of existance that has to be accepted by everyone. (neutral) A god of murder, torture, etc. to me would be evil...
Xaean 09-23-07, 05:01 PM	The latter, which Kelemvor is making himself out to be. Ed's already made several replies about Undeath and 'nature' in FR. Bottom line: if it happens, it happens. Each deity may choose to take moral stances on what happens, but NONE of them are 'truly' correct in an ethical sense of the term. As to the Undead escaping his grasp? The ONLY souls that go to Kelemvor are the False and the Faithless. According to Ed, that number makes up a ridiculously miniscule portion of FR's population. Those who don't believe in and at least pay homage to some of the deities are rare enough to be considered insane. That's FR. I'm not sure what world you're gaming in. Kelemvor is the god of Death - look at his portfolio entry in Faiths and Pantheons - not the god of protection from death nor the hero who defeats Death, nor the bringer of Eternal Life. Not ethics, not morality, not nature, his portfolio, plain and simple, Kelemvor embodies Death. Elbereth Silverleaf's version of Hel embodies that idea of death quite well too, as far as I get it similar to Kelemvor with the difference that he is an ascended mortal, while she is cosmic force that has existed since the dawn of time. Myrkul was the evil enemy of all life - you may perceive death in that way, but honestly it gets boring if every setting has such a god - and a god of necromancers and undead. If he were ever to come back he should take Velsharoon's place but not Kelemvor's.
GothicDan 09-23-07, 05:04 PM	Kelemvor does not embody death, because his stances on it actively changed. He CHANGED who he was, which shows that death does not define him. And Hel was DEFINITELY not Neutral. I'd peg her as NE like Myrkul, as I would Hades, perhaps with a slightly Lawful bent for the latter. But anyway, I'm done with this. People are not understand that this has nothing to do with how -I- perceive death, but how death IS. Before I let my disgust at peoples' inability to logically analyze systems make me say some anti-CoC things, I'm bailing.
Steel General 09-24-07, 12:59 PM	Gnomes won't make it into the initial release of 4e, so every one of them suddenly Feezes and remains in stasis until the PHB II comes out. :P Either that, or they all go to work for Travelocity...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 01:09 AM	Nice. :D Steel, you do realize that in FR, your Avatar is actually a dragon, right? ;) If you don't believe me, just check the GHotR. :P
AffableDoomwalker 09-26-07, 01:46 AM	<snip> They keep Elminster and authorized the deaths of Khelban and Halaster. The latter two, if portrayed well could put a lot more gray into the Realms while still maintaining their heroic, iconic status. They offed Helm but kept Tyr. Helm was also one of the grayer good deities. So far it seems WotC wants to make the Realms more edgy but have taken the exact opposite steps to achieving that. Instead they elect to just do some random changes aimed to creating a sense of freshness but not a real significant change. It is a very dangerous path to take. They risk, alienating the old fans, but really haven't changed enough to interested disgruntled ones. Some sound interested now upon news of the death of a few gods, but once they see Elminster has returned in 4E, most will just turn away again. <snip> A good post altogether, but this part stood out to me. Practically sang to me, if you can believe that. At least when certain deities go out they get something of a bang (look at Bhaal, or even possibly Cyric); that epic, amazing line of story that reaches form a humble adventurer's beginning to the rise or decline of a deity - and something the PLAYERS have a hand in (speaking of which, they could make the Bhaalspawn the new Helm - it'd work, or Keldorn, he's cool too). The GHoTR should have been just that: a grand history, not a disastrous prediction of the future. I absolutely felt like I was stuck in an episode of "All my general memories of a young life, in a world full of days of bold restless passions, in the light." And RENT too, just because it has catchy tunes - Yes folks, the book literally made me feel like I was in a giant soap opera amalgamation that somehow involves la vie boheme, and a whole bunch of dead gods. Why can't it just be what it always was? Go out, conquer, win, and bask in glory. Where's the epic tale of the good guy who goes out and wins in the name of glorious victory and righteousness? That premise never gets old. It really doesn't. If it did D&D would have died out a long time ago. All in all, the deity-drama also kinda reminded me of this clip from Eddie Izzard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjC3R6jOtUo Deities with a view of HELL! Staircase to SATAN! You f**k my Tymora?! Rawrrrr I'm gonna drive around Celestia and put babies on spikes! Oh no its Space Monkies - a whole new part of the plot that wasn't in the original!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-26-07, 02:54 PM	Why can't it just be what it always was? Go out, conquer, win, and bask in glory. Where's the epic tale of the good guy who goes out and wins in the name of glorious victory and righteousness? That premise never gets old. It really doesn't. If it did D&D would have died out a long time ago. I agree. I don't want the Realms to become too grim, somber and desperate. That's not what I enjoy about the setting! Of course there has to be some darkness, but WotC has gone way overboard. Just look at the prologue and epilogue to the new RAS novel The Orc King. :pbbbtt: Not the Realms! PS: All novels are canon and vetted by WotC, so I don't want anyone to start saying that it's just RAS's personal vision and has nothing to do with canon.
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 05:36 PM	PS: All novels are canon and vetted by WotC, so I don't want anyone to start saying that it's just RAS's personal vision and has nothing to do with canon. -He wouldn't of been able to write all that if WotC hadn't approved, anyway. They give him the basic story that they want to be told, and he "illuminates" it for them.
Karsus the Mad 09-26-07, 08:10 PM	Kelemvor does not embody death, because his stances on it actively changed. He CHANGED who he was, which shows that death does not define him. He himself is not death, but he is the god of death, regardless of his changes (bleh I say!!). But anyway, I'm done with this. People are not understand that this has nothing to do with how -I- perceive death, (I prolly missed something in my reading!...something important to help me understand???????) I was not aware the topic had anything to do with how GothicDan percieves death. but how death IS. Before I let my disgust at peoples' inability to logically analyze systems make me say some anti-CoC things, I'm bailing. Sad actually that your own self-percieved notions prevent you from comprehending anyone elses point of view but your own....you mentioned logic??? How, pray tell, are you being logical about such a thing? Hmmmm??? <just poking you Dan! You seem irritated and I can't help but to poke irritated people...it's my curse) >
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 08:44 PM	He is also killed Chewbacca. Is there no end to that man's evil? :weep: ;) :P
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 11:40 PM	He is also killed Chewbacca. Is there no end to that man's evil? :weep: ;) :P -Dan or RAS? I say they were both involved...:eek:
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 11:46 PM	RAS It's on his resume' now - Do you have something that others hold dearly and would like to kill it? Look no further... <mention this ad and get a free crummy anagram>
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-27-07, 08:35 PM	-He wouldn't of been able to write all that if WotC hadn't approved, anyway. They give him the basic story that they want to be told, and he "illuminates" it for them. Yes, that was partly my point. I brought the subject up because some people have said, "Come on, that's just Salvatore's book, it doesn't really mean anything!" I'm really tired of hearing that.
MerrikCale 09-27-07, 09:20 PM	He is also killed Chewbacca. Is there no end to that man's evil? :weep: ;) :P are you sure he wrote the novel that killed him. I thought he wrote the first novel in that series.
Lord Karsus 09-28-07, 12:10 AM	are you sure he wrote the novel that killed him. I thought he wrote the first novel in that series. -Vector Prime was when Chewbacca was killed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 12:57 PM	To be fair, I've read that Chewbacca's death was "ordered" and was not RAS's idea.
Miryana 09-28-07, 01:20 PM	To be fair, I've read that Chewbacca's death was "ordered" and was not RAS's idea. I've read that he wanted it in his contract that he had to kill Chewbacca. He probably guessed that it would make Star Wars fans go crazy and they'd blame him for the decision.
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 03:18 PM	To be fair, I've read that Chewbacca's death was "ordered" and was not RAS's idea.And I am sure he was handed an outline of the 'Future Realms' and told to include stuff from that. RAS didn't invent those changes, the design team did. To be fair, he merely reported them. I was just joking in that other post; The reality is that I have EVERY FR book RAS has written - I can't say the same about ANY of the other authors. I don't hate Drizzt, just fanboys. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 04:24 PM	I've read that he wanted it in his contract that he had to kill Chewbacca. He probably guessed that it would make Star Wars fans go crazy and they'd blame him for the decision. Huh. If that was really the case (and I don't know that it was), that's rather silly. Still, as Markus said in this case (the FR setting) the changes were definitely not RAS's idea, he was just reporting them. I still wonder though--why did he need to report them? Would the book not have been as good if it didn't have the prologue and epilogue set 100 years later? I've mentioned before that that's a design decision that kind of detracts from the novel, as it tells us for a fact that Obould's new kingdom will be successful (and, in fact, a "beacon of hope" for the world).
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 04:41 PM	You know what I think? I think that was the beginnings of the story that was supposed to make it into the GHotR (where it would have been far more appropriate). At some point someone changed their mind, and it wound up being in his novel instead, as a prologue and epilogue. Pure conjecture, of course. ;)
Alediran 09-28-07, 04:52 PM	The kingdom of obould becoming a PoL smells like Durothar from Warcraft. They are overgeneralizing the different settings, now it's becoming: Same thing, different name.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 06:12 PM	At some point someone changed their mind, and it wound up being in his novel instead, as a prologue and epilogue. I thought about that, myself. But, as in many cases, there's no way to know for sure without asking the author (or WotC).
Dark Wizard 09-29-07, 02:26 AM	Huh. If that was really the case (and I don't know that it was), that's rather silly. Still, as Markus said in this case (the FR setting) the changes were definitely not RAS's idea, he was just reporting them. I still wonder though--why did he need to report them? Would the book not have been as good if it didn't have the prologue and epilogue set 100 years later? I've mentioned before that that's a design decision that kind of detracts from the novel, as it tells us for a fact that Obould's new kingdom will be successful (and, in fact, a "beacon of hope" for the world). I think it might have been a mutual decision. WotC gains from the prologue and epilogue by having their top selling author break the news to the fans (he's more or less unassailable due to his juggernaut sales record). It's the most widespread method to disseminate the changes and addresses both the gaming and novel audience. RAS benefits by having his book and character at the forefront of the new Realms, leading the way, preserving the character for the future, further maintaining his prominent place amongst FR and D&D authors.
MarkusTay63 09-29-07, 02:37 AM	So, RAS kills Ao and takes his stuff? :P The kingdom of obould becoming a PoL smells like Durothar from Warcraft. They are overgeneralizing the different settings, now it's becoming: Same thing, different name.Durothar? Do you mean Thrall's Kingdom of Orgrimmar?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 08:24 PM	RAS benefits by having his book and character at the forefront of the new Realms, leading the way, preserving the character for the future, further maintaining his prominent place amongst FR and D&D authors. True. RAS probably isn't unhappy that his character is guaranteed to have survived for at another hundred years in-game.
GothicDan 09-29-07, 09:33 PM	In other words, as Markus said - RAS kills AO and takes his stuff. :)
Spelldancer 09-30-07, 02:46 AM	I have this feeling that my favorite goddess is going to be gone in the updates. :/ Here is hoping that Lliira will survive!
Lord Karsus 09-30-07, 10:59 PM	I have this feeling that my favorite goddess is going to be gone in the updates. :/ Here is hoping that Lliira will survive! -Good luck with that one.
Kieran_Immerdusk 10-02-07, 12:27 PM	Wow. I was cautiously optimistic about 4E after seeing the presentation at Gencon, but I can say for sure that I will NOT play in 4E Realms. More's the pity as far as WOTC is concerned since I haven't bought a core book since Complete Arcane came out. Most of my purchases consisted of Realms material.
Alediran 10-02-07, 12:36 PM	So, RAS kills Ao and takes his stuff? :P Durothar? Do you mean Thrall's Kingdom of Orgrimmar? No comparison, Obould's realms is as big as a city and no more for me (he deserves no more for killing one of the fair folk) :P