Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 07-11-07, 04:58 PM	At what age does a typical human commoner choose his or her patron god?
Faraer 07-11-07, 07:21 PM	Most people will tend to gravitate towards a particular god or two during adolescence. It's usually a matter of natural affinity rather than conscious choice, and having a patron in any sort of formal or official sense is rare.
BrennonGoldeye 07-11-07, 08:44 PM	It happens just exactly as it happened to you in the :globe:. ...........:fight!:..:angel:..:ayyyy!: Just add:ahem:....:lop:....:rolleye2: ...........:devil:.....:emp:.:pint: Oh, and magic. And Psionics. And your elder 1/2 elven cousin whose mom was a Crinti Priestess..:shifty:.. :rimshot:
Suin Bahhar 07-12-07, 10:03 AM	I had a Dambrathan priestess attend my catholic communion? :gasp: Glad she didn't bring any "gifts". Anyways, so when large numbers of 12 year old and younger children are killed they all end up as faithless, whe don't need no education, bricks in the wall on the Fugue plane? On that plane they are easy targets for manipulative messengers of the dieties and outsiders. Guess that's one of the reason there are lot's of ghost stories involving children. Those few children with conviction enough to already 've chosen a patron god are potential favoured souls, pallies, monks or clerics. Is their no specific god to look after these smaller and more vurnerable souls?
sleyvas 07-12-07, 11:04 AM	Actually, if their parents practice their religion at all, I'd bet the children are already "decided" upon their patron deity at a very young age (i.e. children raised in a household that performs religious prayers to Chauntea would probably revere Chauntea... if the two parents patronize different deities, they'd probably pick their favorite parent's deity). Of course, as they grow older they may become conflicted on who their patron deity would be. I think it'd actually be harder for adults than children.
Zevox 07-13-07, 12:16 AM	In Mulhorand the Goddess Nephthys holds the portfolio "Protector of Children and the Dead", so presumably Mulhorandi children who die before they can select a patron would go to her. In the rest of Faerūn though, yeah, most likely they end up as bricks or devils, unless theres some system set up specifically for them we're unaware of (I could see Lathander or Helm as taking on dead children's souls rather than putting them in the wall, or Lathander having an arrangement to get them reincarnated instead of judged based on a life that didn't last long enough for them to make many, if any, important decisions). Zevox
Psionycx 07-13-07, 10:12 AM	The Realms isn't a montheistic world so I don't expect that there is the kind of rigidity about being uber-specific about who your patron god is. Remember, the Faithless are those who either didn't believe in gods or just repudiated them. The False are those that betrayed their beliefs. The act of choosing a patron isn't an assertion of monotheism. You're not wholly committing yourself to just that one god. And in many cases particular gods watch out for particular groups. For example, the souls of children from farming communities are most likely taken in by Chauntea assuming that she was even generally acknowledged by those communities. Things may have been different when Myrkul or Cyric ruled over the dead. But I suspect that Kelemvor probably hands over possession of the souls to children to the gods of their families should they die at a young age before they develop any strong beliefs of their own.
BrennonGoldeye 07-13-07, 09:40 PM	The Realms isn't a montheistic world so I don't expect that there is the kind of rigidity about being uber-specific about who your patron god is. Remember, the Faithless are those who either didn't believe in gods or just repudiated them. The False are those that betrayed their beliefs. The act of choosing a patron isn't an assertion of monotheism. You're not wholly committing yourself to just that one god. And in many cases particular gods watch out for particular groups. For example, the souls of children from farming communities are most likely taken in by Chauntea assuming that she was even generally acknowledged by those communities. Things may have been different when Myrkul or Cyric ruled over the dead. But I suspect that Kelemvor probably hands over possession of the souls to children to the gods of their families should they die at a young age before they develop any strong beliefs of their own. Kelemvor has no power to decide where the souls go besides the terms of the contract. He just runs a nicer Hades than the undead or the insane. He, more than anything, follows the rules. Guess who penned the contracts?:schemes: The Realms are even more Uber-specific than a silly monotheistic world. The Devil has legs here, and spines on It's fore-arms. And It wants you for breakfast after it fattens you up for a bit. Let's not even talk about the 1/16th(or 1/17th as you may find it) of the Outer Planes that seems to be an asexual incubator for nastiness. There is no being "Taken in". The Gods don't have a choice in the matter. Be true, or truly damned. Ah Law, what would we do without it? :cip:
Psionycx 07-14-07, 06:38 AM	Not true. The whole point of Kelemvor is the judge of souls. He doesn't have to put someone into the wall or hold them in the city. Nor is it to the advantage of the rest of the gods to allow souls to be carried off by the fiends. Souls have value. That's why the gods and fiends want them in the first place. Granted the gods were lax about collecting them in the past but laziness is universal. As was shown in the Prince of Lies, any god can rpesent themself as a potential claimant to a dead mortal's soul. It's just a question of whether the sould is eligible for this. Faithless and False are actually pretty narrow categories if you think about it. If they really were all that broad then most of the souls in the Realms would end up in Kelemvor's realm. The gods are overseeing this system remember, and it's not in their best interest to pander to the fiends, nor to let a vast chunk of the world's souls go to the god of the dead. The Good gods in particular wouldn't support it. So the various gods probably have a system not unlike Christian baptism wherein children are consecrated to the god(s) of their parents and are considered under the jurisdiction of those gods by default until established otherwise.
DojiHoturi 07-19-07, 03:09 AM	They go back to Ao to be given another chance in a new body that may (or may not) live long enough to choose for itself. Or maybe they don't. There is always the Ghostwalk stuff you can mess with. Just a thought, Doji
Stigger 07-19-07, 08:16 AM	Interesting... baptism mostly started out among newborn infants as a prophylactic warding against evil and the like, if I recall correctly. Don't recall that whole being barred from heaven coming into play until the 1300's or so... Could be wrong about that one though, been a while since I read the relevant histories. Personally, I'd say that the when of the average person deciding upon a patron deity depended more on where they lived. Lots of temples around in your community, probably a bit longer in deciding than that rural fellow who's only had exposure to the one local church. Obviously there are going to be exceptions to that, but I'd say it was a decent assumption that urban folks chose around the age of their majority, fifteen or so as I recall, and rural folks choose a bit earlier since they would probably go with the default for the community... if they didn't well, that would complicate things a bit I would say...
BlackHalfDragon 07-21-07, 03:10 PM	just to clarify about the barred from heaven thing if not baptised: its not true, no one knows what happens to unbaptised kids. additionally who is the lady of pain ? its not in dnd so is it errebon?
Faraer 07-21-07, 03:18 PM	I don't think most people consciously choose a patron deity at all. I think they naturally gravitate toward a handful of favoured gods, for both social and personal spiritual reasons, one of which is likely to be most favoured, and this may well change through the person's life -- for instance as he or she learns a particular craft, or has traumatic or other life-changing experiences. Only a large minority, I'd say, would have a definite patron deity seen in those self-conscious terms.
BrennonGoldeye 07-21-07, 10:03 PM	just to clarify about the barred from heaven thing if not baptised: its not true, no one knows what happens to unbaptised kids. additionally who is the lady of pain ? its not in dnd so is it errebon? Baptism is RW stuff, and nobody knows what happens in the RW. :lop: is by all definitions D&D, just a tad older than the internet. :D I don't think most people consciously choose a patron deity at all. I think they naturally gravitate toward a handful of favoured gods, for both social and personal spiritual reasons, one of which is likely to be most favoured, and this may well change through the person's life -- for instance as he or she learns a particular craft, or has traumatic or other life-changing experiences. Only a large minority, I'd say, would have a definite patron deity seen in those self-conscious terms. I agree with every bit, and I'll add that none of it means kobold pucky in a world where the Gods(note the plural there) are manifestly real. :)
Stigger 07-22-07, 05:47 PM	Just a tiny bit older... and definitely pure D&D. Really, she was (and still is) the iconic image and face of the entire Planescape setting.
GothicDan 07-23-07, 06:58 PM	All hail the Lady of Paauugh!!! ..... Baptism. Bloody blot. Whatever.
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 10:45 PM	In Mulhorand the Goddess Nephthys holds the portfolio "Protector of Children and the Dead", so presumably Mulhorandi children who die before they can select a patron would go to her. In the rest of Faerūn though, yeah, most likely they end up as bricks or devils, unless theres some system set up specifically for them we're unaware of (I could see Lathander or Helm as taking on dead children's souls rather than putting them in the wall, or Lathander having an arrangement to get them reincarnated instead of judged based on a life that didn't last long enough for them to make many, if any, important decisions). Zevox As the Mulorandi pantheon is still sanctioned by Ao, I believe that Nephthys would still govern over the faithless children throughout the realms, as the Mulorandi pantheon is actually Ao's pantheon. It makes sense that Nephthys being a single cog in Ao's greater machine would maintain her duties throughout the realms.
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 10:53 PM	additionally who is the lady of pain ? its not in dnd so is it errebon? The Lady of Pain is a great giant of a woman who rules over Sigil, the city of doors. Who or what she is isn't exactly known, but she does hold power enough over other divinities that none are allowed entrance into her city. She is the only Power allowed within the ringed city.
Zevox 07-24-07, 10:56 PM	As the Mulorandi pantheon is still sanctioned by Ao, I believe that Nephthys would still govern over the faithless children throughout the realms, as the Mulorandi pantheon is actually Ao's pantheon. It makes sense that Nephthys being a single cog in Ao's greater machine would maintain her duties throughout the realms. Afraid not - the Mulhorandi Pantheon's influence is confined to Mulhorand. The only pantheon whose members have inherent influence over or connection to their portfolios world-wide is the Faerūnian Pantheon, since its the native one. The Mulhorandi Pantheon is allowed to exist in the Realms by Ao, but that doesn't make them any more special to him than any other pantheon (the same permission is extended to each of the racial pantheons, after all, all of whom are interlopers just like the Mulhorandi deities). The only God of the Dead with any influence over another pantheon's dead at all is Kelemvor, and then only in the form of punishing the Faithless and judging the False. Zevox
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 11:13 PM	That's not completely true. I'll try to explain. For Kara-tur, the primary pantheon of spirits that protects the souls of the dead are the Celestial Beaurocracy. These are the only divine entities that are limited to their pantheon only as they are only a council of powerful immortal spirits governed by a spiritual king. The Mulorandi pantheon are Powers with influence in other parts of the Prime Material Plane, but who have been given the right by Ao to gather worshippers in Realmspace while all other Powers outside Realmspace are turned away. As they are only an Aspect of the original Powers they are forced to exist as the God Kings. This physical form, although less powerful than they would be as a full Power, still hold sway to the rules governed by Ao. Ao as a wholely neutral Power demands that the dieties that perform within Realmspace do so completely within their assigned portfolios. This being the case, and Nephthys having the portfolios of guardian of the dead, and protector of children would place her in a position to protect all children who have died, as there are no other dieties within Ao's pantheon with this portfolio.