Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StarFyre 03-04-07, 11:30 PM	Hello, I remember seeing on the cover of a FR book (3.XE, not 2E), an airship (blimp or magical based..not sure).... I assume gnomish invention? Anyways, what i want to know is..my players are currently heading to neverwinter...(from the neverwinter forest) and wish to travel to Arabel. They asked me, after session ended, if magical/air transport is possible. I am not sure. I don't remember reading in volo's guide to the north (2E) of any airshop ports in NW (or any town really)... Was wondering if it be too far fetched to have some gnomes drop by? (I know as the DM I can do whatever I want with the setting...but was wondering if such airships already are used in the Realms). Regards, Sanjay
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 11:40 PM	That would be the Shining South (both the 2e and 3e books had an airship on the covers). Halruaa (in the Shining South) is know for their airships, but they're rare and kept under specific guidelines because they're a valuable and expensive resource. You could have some gnomes experimenting with it, or some other group, such as wizards from Lantan or Nimbral or even an eccentric lone mage near Neverwinter.
Renvale999 03-04-07, 11:45 PM	That would be the Shining South (both the 2e and 3e books had an airship on the covers). Halruaa (in the Shining South) is know for their airships, but they're rare and kept under specific guidelines because they're a valuable and expensive resource. You could have some gnomes experimenting with it, or some other group, such as wizards from Lantan or Nimbral or even an eccentric lone mage near Neverwinter. Not as rare as you might think. The Red Wizards already have the designs for them and there is a bad guy in there own country who has like 4 of them hidden away (I don't remember who and I don't have the book in front of me).
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 12:01 AM	Rare enough ... until the Thayans start mass producing them for sale in every nation. Like the Chinese have plans for aircraft carriers, but so far it seems they haven't built one yet.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 12:34 AM	There are actually THREE aircraft carriers in Realms canon, so I suspect that that puts the City of Raven's Bluff slightly ahead of the Chinese technologically. ;)
Old Sage 03-05-07, 01:11 AM	That would be the Shining South (both the 2e and 3e books had an airship on the covers). Halruaa (in the Shining South) is know for their airships, but they're rare and kept under specific guidelines because they're a valuable and expensive resource. You could have some gnomes experimenting with it, or some other group, such as wizards from Lantan or Nimbral or even an eccentric lone mage near Neverwinter.I will point out, however, that the Halruaans sold some of their skyships to the lizardmen in the forest, according to 3/3.5e's Shining South. As I recall, the older Shining South tome tells us that the Halruaans guard the secrets of their skyships most zealously. As such, I think that you'd probably find that Halruaan wizards have indeed been assigned to "watch over" the skyships given over to the lizardmen -- both as a security measure (to prevent the secrets of the ship from being lost) and to deny the lizardmen from using the skyships in anyway they see fit. Thus, I would tend to think that while skyships have been sold to the lizardmen, it's actually more about providing Halruaa with an added layer of defense for the region, and less about them being used in battle by the lizardmen. Afterall, the wizards of Halruaa likely wouldn't consider their treasured skyships, being the valuable military assets that they are, to be something wasted in "just any old battle." They would therefore, I believe, tend to select places of strategic importance around Halruaa itself, which would provide Halruaan armies deployed to such locations, with rapid troop transports and supply convoys, against threats on the borders of their realms, when required. And of course, in 2e material for Zakhara, one of the skyships was stolen and taken to the Land of Fate.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 01:18 AM	I wouldn't mind seeing more of them, truth to tell, in the Realms. It would make for some interesting adventures, and a 'new business venture' by the Halruuans (or whomever) providing transport between fixed locales would be sweet. However, I also realize that would de-realmsify quite a bit, something people are already often complaining about here. A little too much 'Eberronic', maybe? But as a long-time player of WoW, I remember my first blimp-trip fondly. :D
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 02:02 AM	I wouldn't mind seeing more of them, truth to tell, in the Realms. It would make for some interesting adventures, and a 'new business venture' by the Halruuans (or whomever) providing transport between fixed locales would be sweet. However, I also realize that would de-realmsify quite a bit, something people are already often complaining about here. A little too much 'Eberronic', maybe? But as a long-time player of WoW, I remember my first blimp-trip fondly. :D I wouldn't mind seeing more airships around either. Just pointing out that they're rare, though don't take that to mean nonexistent, which some responses to my first response seen to believe I implied.
Galad 03-05-07, 11:19 AM	Does anybody have or know where to find a map of a skyship? Or what crew is needed to fly it and man it? How many soldiers it can carry? I think I might like to use one sooner or later but have no idea of their general size or crew.
Faraer 03-05-07, 11:51 AM	I remember seeing on the cover of a FR book (3.XE, not 2E), an airship (blimp or magical based..not sure)....Airships have been part of the Realms since -- in print -- "Sailors on the Sea of Air" in Dragon #124.I assume gnomish invention?Why? The great technological innovators are Gondar humans -- the tinker-gnome contamination of Realms gnomes is, luckily, limited -- and skyships are magical.
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 12:07 PM	Given that Halruaan skyships appear to be Netherese in origin (or so I gather from Raumark's flight of skyships from Hlondath to the Halruaan basin to found Halruaa), I would assume it'd be possible for there to be ruins of skyships throughout Anauroch, buried over the centuries by the sands. I don't see why a mage who has spent decades exploring Netherese ruins couldn't have found the remains of one and figured out how to duplicate it (or at least extrapolate a method of recreating one). I always fancied just tacking flying carpets on a wooden hall:) A simple solution. Or a clanky Lantanese derrigible. I have a few of those in my Lantan, but they're more of a "ufo" thing. The Gondar have them, but aren't in the mood to anounce it, and they sabotage any other artificer who comes close to creating one.
Stigger 03-05-07, 12:14 PM	You know, if gnomes were that incompetant, they wouldn't still be around as a species... such a maligned race it's not even funny. But you shall all rue the day they rise up and then you'll all see... :evillaugh Seriously though, I don't know why a sudden proliferation of skyships would suddenly de-realmsify the realms. Isn't like the Eberron thing wasn't ripped wholesale from the Realms anyway... and modified just enough so the Halruaan's didn't come down on their heads like a ton of fireballs. Personally I like the idea of skyships prowling the coasts more than galleons.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 12:34 PM	Given that Halruaan skyships appear to be Netherese in origin (or so I gather from Raumark's flight of skyships from Hlondath to the Halruaan basin to found Halruaa)...The canon says that they gave up on Spelljamming when they couldn't figure out how to make their own helms, so one can assume that the current Skyship technology is based on early Netherese experimentation (they could make them fly, but they couldn't get them past tactical speed for Spelljammers, making them near-useless for space travel). But thats just my take. ;)
Ioulaum 03-05-07, 12:51 PM	The canon says that they gave up on Spelljamming when they couldn't figure out how to make their own helms, so one can assume that the current Skyship technology is based on early Netherese experimentation (they could make them fly, but they couldn't get them past tactical speed for Spelljammers, making them near-useless for space travel). But thats just my take. ;) I personally agree with that view myself. THat Harrula Airships are a offshoot of Spelljammer tech form the Nethril's spelljamming days. Just out of curosity who had the first Airship in rpg? FinalFantasy or Forgotten Realms? FF1 had it back it in thr mid 1980s and it subsequently took of form there. When did the realms introduce its first airship?
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 12:53 PM	The canon says that they gave up on Spelljamming when they couldn't figure out how to make their own helms, so one can assume that the current Skyship technology is based on early Netherese experimentation (they could make them fly, but they couldn't get them past tactical speed for Spelljammers, making them near-useless for space travel). But thats just my take. ;) ?Skyships have nothing to do with Spelljamming vessels:P And the Netherese had Spelljamming. Not being able to make their own helms? That's new to me. Where's that at? They had a large, but brief presence in Realmspace. One particular arcanist (Oberon) was actually well-liked in the Spelljamming community, despite Netheril overall being shunned. They had a habit of enslaving other spelljamming people they came across. Edit: found:P They had to use magic to create Spelljamming helms and other required items. I thought Spelljamming was magic based?
The_Shaman 03-05-07, 12:57 PM	The Netherese might have had some SJ experience, but what about the Imaskari? They seemed to have some expertise with the field, and I'd say were quite big on spatial/dimensional magic.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 01:03 PM	?Skyships have nothing to do with Spelljamming vessels:P And the Netherese had Spelljamming. Not being able to make their own helms? That's new to me. Where's that at? They had a large, but brief presence in Realmspace. One particular arcanist (Oberon) was actually well-liked in the Spelljamming community, despite Netheril overall being shunned. They had a habit of enslaving other spelljamming people they came across. Edit: found:P They had to use magic to create Spelljamming helms and other required items. I thought Spelljamming was magic based?It's based on some conversations we had over at Candlekeep. It seems the Netherese gave up on space travel because they didn't like having to buy helms off the arcane. I'm not sure where thats from, but considering that the folks over there are Canon Nazis my guess is that it is true. ;)
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 01:04 PM	The Netherese might have had some SJ experience, but what about the Imaskari? They seemed to have some expertise with the field, and I'd say were quite big on spatial/dimensional magic. Since the Netherese were the first (and only) humans to travel to Realmspace up until 2795 NY (which is -1,064DR I believe) and Imaskar fell in -2,488, I would assume the Imaskari had little or no SJ. It's based on some conversations we had over at Candlekeep. It seems the Netherese gave up on space travel because they didn't like having to buy helms off the arcane. I'm not sure where thats from, but considering that the folks over there are Canon Nazis my guess is that it is true. I found it right after posting:) It's in NEoM, Since the Netherese were unsuccessful in creating their own helms and other spelljamming items-being forced to rely on the Arcane for such materials—they decided to drop out of Realmspace. Does that mean Spelljamming Helms are non-magical? (My SJ knowledge is 0%), since the Netherese could make the materials with magic?
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 01:08 PM	Since the Netherese were the first (and only) humans to travel to Realmspace up until 2795 NY (which is -1,064DR I believe) and Imaskar fell in -2,488, I would assume the Imaskari had little or no SJ. I found it right after posting:) It's in NEoM, Does that mean Spelljamming Helms are non-magical? (My SJ knowledge is 0%), since the Netherese could make the materials with magic?They didn't need it, they were a buncha plane-hoppin' fools! :cool: Does that mean Spelljamming Helms are non-magical? (My SJ knowledge is 0%), since the Netherese could make the materials with magic?No, they are magical, but their creation is a well-gaurded secret. Only the arcane can build the standard helms. You can enter space with any flying vessel, including on the back of a dragon, but it would take weeks to fly just to the moon, and you would run out of air by then (everything leaving the atmosphere is assumed to have a small bubble of air around it in SJ)
StarFyre 03-05-07, 02:04 PM	Mystara had an airship....since early 80s..prior to final fantasy :) Sanjay
Calmar 03-05-07, 03:28 PM	Come on, everybody capable of the creation of flying carpets or the like should be able to build a flying ship (althought I admit there sprobably aren't much of such people... ;)).
Alac Luin 03-05-07, 07:13 PM	A Halruaan Airship plays a role in the novel Darkvision. Apparently a noble family not from Halruaa bought 3 airships to over see mining opperations.
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 07:31 PM	Come on, everybody capable of the creation of flying carpets or the like should be able to build a flying ship (althought I admit there sprobably aren't much of such people... ). That's actually one of my solutions:P I agree tho', skyships shouldn't be so difficult when such magic as flying carpets exist. It's bloody dumb I think. "Oh, I can create a flying carpet from my blanky, but I can't figure out how to make my yacht fly, despite the exact same spells and procedure being involved!"......
Old Sage 03-05-07, 07:34 PM	I assume gnomish invention?Don't assume that. The tinker-like aspect of the gnomes was the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared (in the form of a gnome) on the island during the Time of Troubles. Despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable and significant human presence, who are mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technogical design on their own as members of Gond's faithful.
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 07:42 PM	Despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable and significant human presence, who are mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technogical design on their own as members of Gond's faithful. Doesn't even the ruling council consist of all humans? The leader being a human priest of Gond (which he was even before the ToT?).
Old Sage 03-05-07, 07:44 PM	Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells. One of the more recent mentions was made by Eric, in the write-up for Kethid of Serpent Kingdoms. Several Halruaan Skyships are said to be capable of "sailing amongst the stars." Eric told me this was another "vague" reference to SJing in 3e FR.
Old Sage 03-05-07, 07:44 PM	The Netherese had explored spelljamming, and decided it wasn't for them. You'll find their reasons why on pg. 9 of Netheril: Empire of Magic -- under "Realmspace."
Khaelieth 03-05-07, 08:16 PM	The Netherese had explored spelljamming, and decided it wasn't for them. You'll find their reasons why on pg. 9 of Netheril: Empire of Magic -- under "Realmspace." The crew got munched by aliens.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 10:55 PM	Halruaan skyships have nothing to do with spelljammers... A few skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells.And is it SO hard to extrapolate from that they they built MANY proto-type designs while attempting to build true Spelljammers, and that the Halruan ships are an off-shot of THAT technology? :ahem: Or you, in your DEVINE wisdom, have decided that they got it right the first time? I swear, the know-it-alls on these boards some times..... :rolleye2:
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 11:42 PM	Airships is one of those cool ideas that's hard to keep a lid on once it's out there in a setting. I'm surprised there aren't more of them around given how everyone and their dog tries to be an exception to the rule in regards to who has access to airships.
Old Sage 03-06-07, 01:10 AM	Re: Halruaan spelljammers... The Halruaans likely had partial access to whatever limited research the Netherese themselves conducted on spelljamming during Netheril's own brief flirtation with spelljammers. Though, certainly not enough to grant the Halruaans complete access to the secrets of spelljamming and of the helms themselves. We know the Halruaan Skyships are said to have some part of their origin in designs crafted by the Netherese. These designs may have been in direct response to Netheril's inability to properly harness spelljamming technology. However, the Netherese were largely unsuccessful in both creating and understanding the helms themselves -- thus, whatever few pieces of Netherese spelljamming research the Halruaans did manage to glean from ancient records, likely wouldn't have given much of a boost to their own research efforts into spelljamming helms. Instead, we see the Halruaans devote much of their own efforts to redefining and expanding upon the initial Netherese Skyship designs.
Old Sage 03-06-07, 01:12 AM	I swear, the know-it-alls on these boards some times..... :rolleye2:And what is that supposed to mean?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-06-07, 01:26 AM	That's actually one of my solutions:P I agree tho', skyships shouldn't be so difficult when such magic as flying carpets exist. It's bloody dumb I think. "Oh, I can create a flying carpet from my blanky, but I can't figure out how to make my yacht fly, despite the exact same spells and procedure being involved!"...... That’s why I captured a Githyanki sky ship they used to invade a parallel world. Only took me a couple of months to reverse engineer that thing. I have a whole fleet of them now. I just opened a dealership. They are a little pricey. 100 million GP. But well worth. Your really paying for the big Bronze LN on the front.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-06-07, 01:31 AM	The people of Netheril toyed with Spelljammer ships then they realized it had no place in fantasy setting, unless you are Kirk so they quit! :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:
MarkusTay63 03-06-07, 04:52 AM	And what is that supposed to mean?My whole point was, that since they WEREN'T successful, the ships the Halruans have are based off of the FAILURES, that is why they aren't Spelljammers. I'm sure the Netherese built many different types of ships that flew... and then they all died from lack of oxygen during that 5 week trip to the moon (or whatever it works out to be in tactical speed). I'm sorry, I was annoyed. It's just that you were trying to explain to me why the Halruan ships ARE NOT Spelljammers, and meanwhile that was my entire point from the beginning. The Halruans are most likely flying the failures (or at least newer ones that were developed). I'm sorry I brought it up, this is the second time on the second forum where folks jumped down my throught because I was just tossing some ideas around. I'll try not to have any more ideas. :( Part of the reason that that setting never really went over big is because of the convoluted rules regarding Helms. Different rules for EACH type, which was a big problem in general in 2e. Someone over at CK posted THIS LINK, (http://www.spelljammer.org/ships/helms/alternate_helm.html), which is a much better system for handling Helms IMHO. It never ceases to amaze me how much better rules become in the hands of fans.
Old Sage 03-06-07, 06:27 AM	Ideas are fine. I had no intention of discouraging your theories... I was merely pointing out that the Halruaans likely only had minor access to limited spelljamming lore to begin with. And thus, 'tis likely they would've decided, at least early on, to elaborate on pre-existing Netherese designs involving Skyships, rather than trying to develop a spelljamming alternative. As it is, I don't see the Halruaan Skyships as the result of failures made by Halruaan researchers relying on Netherese spelljamming techniques. It's likely that there simply may not have been enough useful Netherese spelljamming lore to motivate such Halruaan research in the first place. Rather, I see the Halruaan Skyships as designs the Halruaans themselves built upon using what little Netherese lore, regarding Skyships from Netheril's time, filtered down through the centuries.
MarkusTay63 03-06-07, 07:42 AM	They probably developed a hundred different types before they finally gave up. The Halruans are most likely just using one of the more workable concepts. They very well might have had ones with bound elementals as well, as in Eberron. I just picture this huge abandoned hanger buried somewhere, with everything from zeppelins and balloons to biplanes and jules-vernian style rockets, to the Enteprise and the Jupiter II, all just collecting dust. :D I'm also thinking that they could have been the ones to develop 'life-jammers'. Nothing canon of course, but I wouldn't put it past them to experiment with a few gnome slaves.
Karsus the Mad 03-06-07, 09:42 AM	"Life-Jammers"....I like that. There was also the spheresail spell. When cast on any watercraft (a boat..), it turned it into a spelljamming vessel capable of double speed.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-06-07, 10:34 AM	Life Jammers! Can we stick the Maskedone in one of those Life Jammers! Sounds like a great idea!