Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knight_of_Gondor 05-07-07, 01:50 AM	Long story short...my gaming group is returning to the Realms after a long hiatus. I am interested in something that is based on Ancient Greek/Imperial Rome/Roman controlled Britain. I kind of remember there being such a region in the southern area? Is this true or has my mind become befuddled?
BadCatMan 05-07-07, 01:53 AM	Yep, Chessenta. And a maybe a little bit of Chondath. For best details, see Old Empires and Dragons Of Faerun, or because I like showing off: http://www.rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=18453&gn=RoA+5:+Adventures&ti=48&date=1167712726 (with a few slight changes)
Philalexandros 05-07-07, 09:16 AM	Chessenta is "Greek" only in name and in a bit of the description. Akanax specifically tries to conjure up a bit of Sparta. The majority of the region does not seem to subscribe to what you're looking for, though--linguistically, religiously, or culturally.
MarkusTay63 05-10-07, 05:40 PM	For Early Briton (though not Rome-controlled) the Moonshaes are your best best, although bits of Celtic cuture also appear in Nimbral and Lantan (all island nations... Hmmmm). Thay is sort of a 'dark' version of the eastern Roman empire (Bezantur=Byzantium, etc), with it's breaking off from it's 'parent state' (Mulhorand=Rome). One could go so far as to describe the machinations of the Zulkirs as 'byzantine plots'. It's also a place on the border of Eastern and Western culture (Kara-Tur and Faerūn). However, those are just similarities and Thaymount is definately NOT Constantinople. Although, it does remind me of the HBO program Rome in many ways... ;)
Lord_Steve 05-10-07, 05:57 PM	I thought Mulhorand = Egypt ......
MerrikCale 05-10-07, 06:49 PM	I thought Mulhorand = Egypt ...... It basically is
Old Sage 05-10-07, 08:02 PM	That is, the TSR version can be interpreted as such. As with such aspects of the Realms however, I usually stick more closely to what Ed originally envisioned for the region. Here's Ed's view on Mulhorand - "Correct. I wanted Mulhorand to be a land of dusky-skinned Set worshippers, because I postulated the worship of Set to have spread through the planar links from earth. When it was developed in print by other designers than me, it had become “Egyptians from our real-world Earth resettle in the Realms, and bring all their gods and worship with them,” so there is direct modeling. Not by me, and it’s not how I would have handled Mulhorand, but that’s what other designers did, and they did it well."
The Ubbergeek 05-11-07, 01:35 AM	But such views are not uncompactible, and Mulhonrand is very fine as it is. ;) Be very warry of bringing this 'Gygax only' syndroma in...
GothicDan 05-11-07, 02:19 AM	Only if you want to be, of course. I'm all for "Ed only in FR, or Ed approved."
Old Sage 05-11-07, 03:16 AM	You're always welcome at my gaming table GD. ;)
GothicDan 05-11-07, 03:40 AM	If I ever end up in Australia, I'll take that offer up VERY quickly, Old Sage! And I'll offer the same to you, once I get done building my world and making the rules for it. I wonder what Ed would say if I ever talked about getting "DONE" building a fantasy world. Ha!
Old Sage 05-11-07, 11:28 AM	From what you've told me about your own world GD, I'm more than a little curious to see what it would be like from a player's perspective. ;)
Agudo Archmage 05-11-07, 12:24 PM	I have always seen the Minotaur race, as the greek culture of FR
Tyberian 05-11-07, 03:35 PM	If you wanted to treat a region as Greek, look into Chessenta. One of the chief deities, before the return of Tchazzar, is Lathander. His focus on the sun and healing give him a pretty good similarity to Apollo, especially if you create a heresy to smooth over any differences not to your liking.
MarkusTay63 05-11-07, 06:00 PM	I thought Mulhorand = Egypt ......Arrgh! I know Mulhorand is supposed to be FR's Egypt, I was just using that '=' sign to represent that nations place in a scenario where Thay=Constantinople. Basically, it was part of something bigger to the west, but then became even more powerful then it's parent-state, from whom it broke off of. I didn't mean it literally... However, IMG, there was a Rome-like culture existing on the Easting Reach BEFORE the Mulan showed up, so many of the older building in that region show the 'classical' style architecture of ancient greece and Rome, even though the people are more like Stygi... errr... I mean, Egyptians. ;)
boards 05-11-07, 06:17 PM	If you wanted to treat a region as Greek, look into Chessenta. One of the chief deities, before the return of Tchazzar, is Lathander. His focus on the sun and healing give him a pretty good similarity to Apollo, especially if you create a heresy to smooth over any differences not to your liking. I've never really seen Lathander as being Apollo. Apollo is a god of music, poetry, prophecy, light and healing (to a degree), so I dont really see them as being too similar. On a side point does anyone know if Eos was still venerated once Helios and Selene were taken over by Apollo and Artemis?
dragonheart 05-11-07, 07:06 PM	there really isn't any place like either classical greece or the roman empire in FR. ther eare a few odds and ends that might have some relationship but that is it. As someone mentioned there is the Moonshaes if you want a celto-anglo-saxon-nordic culture but it would be one minus the roman occupation. Realistically the closest any area comes to being at all related to greco roman culture would be Calimshan amazingly enough with its impires and caliphs (aka cesears) but its a very late stage "rome" at this point wiht its empire much shrunken and basically just trying to hold its own. it doesn't have much of the real greco-roman culture but its politics would have a "byzantine" feel to them at high levels.
Francius 05-11-07, 07:42 PM	Actually, caliphs, spiral buildings and middle eastern cultures in general, don't remind me of Ancient Greece and Rome at all - not even by that comparison solely the imperialistic system.
Old Sage 05-11-07, 07:59 PM	I have always seen the Minotaur race, as the greek culture of FRThe minotaur race doesn't feature prominently in the Realms. There are of course minotaurs in Faerun, but they are not a wholly organised people with a land or nation or their own. We know, from Ed, that - "Faerunian minotaurs are very rarely seen or mentioned for the same reason psionics was downplayed for so long; they’re considered essential elements of another TSR/now WotC product line (minotaurs meant Dragonlance, psionics meant Dark Sun). So while they’re in the Realms (the ‘home of everything’ for 2nd Edition D&D), we weren’t allowed to feature them in adventures or novels, or make more than passing mention of them." and, "Capn Charlie. I like both of your minotaur isle ideas, and yes, I have always included a FEW intelligent, refined minotaurs, though most are brutish, barbarian-level “grunting beasts.” I’ve always treated lizard men the same way; most are tribal warriors with much cunning but not a whole lot of inspirational intellect (i.e. they can learn a new weapon, trap, or battlefield danger in a hurry in a fight with PCs, but don’t lead lives of complex culture), but a few are every bit as intelligent and accomplished as most humans. This usually means that they’re smart enough to keep isolated and largely hidden from humans."
Francius 05-11-07, 08:10 PM	However, the Agudo Archmage is right. The Minotaur is a mythical creature originated from Greek mythos culture. Not that it cannot exist in other fantasy worlds, though.
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:37 PM	There really isn't any Greco/roman classic culture on Faerun. The chessentans are a lot more like the Caanites and phonecians than Greeks.
BadCatMan 05-11-07, 09:56 PM	Chessentans and the Ancient Greeks dress the same, have a similar language, and share many cultural hobbies. They don't share the same social drives or outlook on life, but that is really as close as you're ever going to get two cultures in RW and FR.
XHereticX 05-11-07, 10:02 PM	Chessentans and the Ancient Greeks dress the same, have a similar language, and share many cultural hobbies. They don't share the same social drives or outlook on life, but that is really as close as you're ever going to get two cultures in RW and FR. unless you make your own civilization on an unexplored continent. I still don't get how the Chessentans are descended by the Babylonian like Untherics and end up so much like the Greeks, a culture that shares almost no similarities to the empires of the Fertile Crescent.
Empirate 05-12-07, 10:38 AM	I still don't get how the Chessentans are descended by the Babylonian like Untherics and end up so much like the Greeks, a culture that shares almost no similarities to the empires of the Fertile Crescent. You couldn't be farther off, actually... Hittite, Phoenetian and ultimately Mesopotamian influences on Greek culture have been so heavy and so important, the "classical" period of Graeco-Roman culture and civilization is just unthinkable without them. Even Greek philosophy and religion owes a lot to near eastern thought and religion. And while we may have (rectangular, pillar-based architectural images in mind that seem to differ a lot from what we imagine to know about near eastern architecture (onion-shaped domes and such), this imagination is very much at fault; just take a look at ornament and art. Ever seen a classical hellenic amphora? Now compare that to Hittite or even Babylonian art and notice the similarities. For all Platon's and Aristoteles' efforts at demonizing or, more to the point, belittling the "non-hellenic" mindset, for all their preaching that true Logos only dwelt among the Hellenes, while the Asian peoples, in spite of all their cultural achievements, still lived in barbarian darkness - this was simply a way of asserting one's own rather recently achieved position in the world, a way to claim the moral high ground.
Tyberian 05-12-07, 10:39 AM	As to the portfolio elements of Apollo that you mentioned, they are strong in Lathander. He is one of the few faerunian pantheon deities (i.e. not a demihuman pantheon member) with healing in his domain lists. Unless I'm mistaken, creativity is in his portfolio. Finally, if you look at the Morninglord of Lathander PrC, not only are perform (acting, oratory, singing) and crafts (i.e. arts such as painting) class skills but beginning at 2nd level you gain a bonus on those skills equal to your class level. As you can achieve 10th level morninglord with a +10 bonus on perform checks by you 15th character level, you can sing or act and all the gods would notice. Perform rank 18+10=28 not counting your charisma, any other feat adjustments or your roll itself....
MarkusTay63 05-12-07, 11:51 AM	Since there wasn't any Greco-roman style culture in the Realms, I had to add it into the past. ATTENTION:The following is NON-canon! Sometime around -6400 the ethnic group known as Chondathans started to make their presence known along the southern Inner Sea (Sea of Fallen Stars). I have it IMG where they were the first group brought through by the Imaskari, with disasterous results. They brought over way too many to control, and the new arrivals immediately attacked, looted, and destroyed at least one Imaskari city, before fleeing west. However, if you don't like that, you can simply say they evolved there naturally (which the Chondathans did). By -6000 they had several city-states started all along the Inner Sea coast, from the Alamber Sea to the Vilhon reach. One of their largest and earliest settlements was called Skaladae, on the site of present day Skuld. The Turami, who were the original inhabitants along this coast were pushed west as the Chondathans expanded. In -5800, several rising city-states banded together to form Jamdath, but most of the others remained autonamous (which eventually proved their undoing). After -4366, the Imaskari had a very large slave population, and they began to expand (once again) into the futre sites of Mulhorand and Murghōm, to augment their massive plantations in Veldorn. One by one the cities around the Alamber Sea fell to Imaskar forces, until even mighty Skaladae fell. Once the Mulan rebelled in -2488, they themselves migrated west, fleeing the destryed Raurin region. They took cities away from the Chondathans and formed the nation of Unther, while those former slaves already living to the east simply renamed the main city Skuld and began the nation of Mulhorand. This means that the Mulhorandi are closer to the original (mediterranean) slave stock, whereas the Untherites have more of an admixture of Imaskar blood (they were the 'houshold slaves', rather then the field workers). The region known today as Chessenta continued on as it always has, and much of the architecture is reminscent of Greek. Jamdath's Sword cities looked like near-exact copies of those found in ancient Rome, but alas, most of those now lie on the bottom of the Vilhon Reach. Some of the inland cities still show some signs of the Roman-style architecture, but the greatest surviving examples are to be found in the ancient city of Skuld, mixed in with the newer Mulan-style buildings. End of Transmission... ;) 90% of that is made up, but the dates are all real along with the current information on those regions. I basically just took a slice of little-developed FR lore and embellished it. There is no need to change any canon lore to fit that in (AFAIK). hope that helps... somehow. :)
XHereticX 05-13-07, 05:21 PM	You couldn't be farther off, actually... Hittite, Phoenetian and ultimately Mesopotamian influences on Greek culture have been so heavy and so important, the "classical" period of Graeco-Roman culture and civilization is just unthinkable without them. Even Greek philosophy and religion owes a lot to near eastern thought and religion. And while we may have (rectangular, pillar-based architectural images in mind that seem to differ a lot from what we imagine to know about near eastern architecture (onion-shaped domes and such), this imagination is very much at fault; just take a look at ornament and art. Ever seen a classical hellenic amphora? Now compare that to Hittite or even Babylonian art and notice the similarities. For all Platon's and Aristoteles' efforts at demonizing or, more to the point, belittling the "non-hellenic" mindset, for all their preaching that true Logos only dwelt among the Hellenes, while the Asian peoples, in spite of all their cultural achievements, still lived in barbarian darkness - this was simply a way of asserting one's own rather recently achieved position in the world, a way to claim the moral high ground. Actually no, the Greek civilization was originally inspired by the Minoans of Crete, a culture that duelt around the same time as the Babylonians. I am not saying that there wern't influences from mesopotamia due to reasons such as trade, but they were very small as the cultures differ greatly, and I am not only talking about architecture. It was actually the Egyptians that had more of an effect on greek architecture as many of the Greek stonemasons got their pillar designs from observing the sandstone temple complexes at places like Karnak and making their own improvements with marble. And just how is Greek and Babylonian art similar? I have seen both and don't notice many similarities.
Empirate 05-15-07, 01:02 PM	If you study History of Art of early Greece, there is a period called the Asian period (or something similar... my textbooks are all in German, where it's called "Asiatisierende Epoche", which would literally translate to something like Asiaticizing Period). This is much later than the Minoans, right after the invasions by Ionians and Dorians. It's been a while since I've been over this stuff (I'm more into the Middle Ages now), but iirc it was from about 1,000 to 800 B. C. and had massive influence on all aspects of what was about to become Greek culture - metalwork, painting, music, poetry, philosophy... you name it. The civilization that transmitted more ancient Mesopotamian cultural contents were the Phoenitians, who at the time were the most important traders anywhere. And I must say I find the similarities between Phoenitian art/architecture and Greek architecture quite striking. On the subject of architecture: Egyptian architecture and Greek architecture around 1,000 B. C. don't have much in common. If many of the extant ruins found in Egypt today look a bit Greek, that is because the country was run by Macedonians for centuries following the conquest by Alexander the Great. Oh man, this is totally off topic now. Sorry. XHereticX, we might consider moving elsewhere to discuss this. Only point I wanted to make: I don't see a reason why Chessentan culture wouldn't be derived from Untheric culture, given enough time.
Perun 05-16-07, 02:02 AM	As to the portfolio elements of Apollo that you mentioned, they are strong in Lathander. He is one of the few faerunian pantheon deities (i.e. not a demihuman pantheon member) with healing in his domain lists. Actually, uless you're referring to an update I'm unaware of, Lathander does not have Healing as one of his domains. Lathander's clerics can choose from Good, Nobility, Protection, Renewal, Strength, and Sun domains. There are only three deities in the Faerūnian pantheon that grant access to the Healing domain: Ilmater, Lurue, and Torm. Regards.
boards 05-16-07, 10:38 PM	That is, the TSR version can be interpreted as such. As with such aspects of the Realms however, I usually stick more closely to what Ed originally envisioned for the region. Here's Ed's view on Mulhorand - "Correct. I wanted Mulhorand to be a land of dusky-skinned Set worshippers, because I postulated the worship of Set to have spread through the planar links from earth." Do we know anything beyond they were dusky-skinned Set worshippers? Were they essentially a Stygia from Conan, or did Ed have a seperate culture for them?
BadCatMan 05-18-07, 02:14 AM	Scott Bennie, who wrote Old Empires has this to say in his later unofficial material on the region: "[Mulhorand] began, as this author recollects it with Ed Greenwood, the man who created Faerūn, with a few encounters between his adventurers and bald-headed priestesses of Set. Mulhorand was created by Ed as their land of origin." From the two statements, I would suppose that the original Mulhorand was a land ruled by evil female priestesses of Set - not unlike the drow really.
The Ubbergeek 05-18-07, 03:14 AM	Frankly, for 'creativity pushed away by corporates' as somes seem to imply it, I say baloney. Ed again took inspiration from another source (tolkien for the retreat, Newhon for Illmater, etc - not bad necessarly, but not extremely creative).... Conan the Barbarian and all. Nice idea, but frankly it's as creative as the now Mulhorand. Plus, TSR's mulhorand is less shoutting 'EVEEEEEEEEEEL!' stereotypical.
boards 05-18-07, 05:14 AM	Scott Bennie, who wrote Old Empires has this to say in his later unofficial material on the region: "[Mulhorand] began, as this author recollects it with Ed Greenwood, the man who created Faerūn, with a few encounters between his adventurers and bald-headed priestesses of Set. Mulhorand was created by Ed as their land of origin." From the two statements, I would suppose that the original Mulhorand was a land ruled by evil female priestesses of Set - not unlike the drow really. Ah thanks BadCatMan.