Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 04:41 PM	I really can't understand why Tsarra is now the blackstaff. I would rather have seen Malchor Harpell as the new Blackstaff. He is a very powerful mage and a great candidate. Tsarra is what a Sorcerer/Ranger/Arcane Archer? I always figured a pure spellcaster as the new Blackstaff. Oh well what are your opinions?
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 05:04 PM	-That isn't a very effective spoiler, just so you know. -Anyway, have you actually even read the book? It makes it very clear why Tsarra is the new Blackstaff.
Stigger 02-22-07, 05:09 PM	Haven't read it, never will since it never happened in my mind, so I have to admit to a certain curiousity as to what the official reasoning is.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 05:38 PM	Haven't read it, never will since it never happened in my mind, so I have to admit to a certain curiousity as to what the official reasoning is. -Here's the long and the short of it. Mind you, it's been a few months since I read the book... -Tsarra accidentally gets into the mind of the Blackstaff because of some magic gone awry. She seems images of his past, and their minds are linked magically. Via a Tel'Kiira, or a Selu'Kiira (Don't remember which one), she is able to keep her own mind, but she occasionally gets glimpses of Khelben's memories and thoughts. And then, of course, the ending happens. By now, I am sure you are at least somewhat aware of the ending of Blackstaff.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 06:20 PM	-That isn't a very effective spoiler, just so you know. -Anyway, have you actually even read the book? It makes it very clear why Tsarra is the new Blackstaff. i know I was going to put "SPOILER" Blackstaff questions. And my first sentence was going to be Whay Tsarra as the new Blackstaff but I goofed.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 06:21 PM	I mean i know why from the books. It's more of a For God sakes why?
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 06:37 PM	I mean i know why from the books. It's more of a For God sakes why? -Well, that's why. -Tsarra is the only being who is so intimatley linked to Khelben's mind. Thus, the is only natural to continue on the lagacy of the Blackstaff. In fact, a part of her IS Khelben, the Blackstaff. Look the the changes their link had on her, and Nameless, her Tressym familiar.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 06:48 PM	One good question to ask is how much of Blackstaff’s memories did she absorb? If she has gained some of his experience it stands to reason that he levels have increased dramatically. Correct?
Stigger 02-22-07, 07:00 PM	Could be... would make some sense at least. Still think it was stupid how he died though... rather pointless if you ask me.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 07:41 PM	One good question to ask is how much of Blackstaff’s memories did she absorb? If she has gained some of his experience it stands to reason that he levels have increased dramatically. Correct? -Theoretically. Though, if she did, and did go up levels, who would really know, because Tsarra was never givens stats to begin with. Could be... would make some sense at least. Still think it was stupid how he died though... rather pointless if you ask me. -He died fufilling his duty. His name literally means, "One who will do duty", or something like that. I forgot at this exact moment. His entire life was to do this one event.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 08:25 PM	It's threads like these that make me truly despise the mindsets that the new rules system (and perhaps the oldest ones) seemed to promote amongst players. He died because it was time for him to go. Mechanics aside.
Alediran 02-22-07, 10:12 PM	Actually, he died because he wanted.
ZolDarklock 02-22-07, 10:54 PM	he died because that's what the author penned, the author wanted it, so it happened- Quote: He died fufilling his duty. His name literally means, "One who will do duty", or something like that. I forgot at this exact moment. His entire life was to do this one event. you got to be kidding, so all of the encounters KB had in his life were preset with no way he could lose until that moment in time, or nothing mattered to him but this event... I often wondered what would happen if the WotC writers ever wrote about these characters with a little common sense applied, imagine what the novels would be like if they wrote about these characters decision with the same kinda decision they would make if they were actually playing them and trying not to get them killed off or putting themselfs in really stupid situations
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 11:33 PM	You have to look at all this from a business point of view. You can't write novels like you would being in a game. The book doesn't give the characters in the books of living or dying. Before these books go into print they are looked over. If Bob Salvatore got up one day and said I want Drizzt to die in my next book, WotC is going to talk him out of it because Drizzt is a money maker. Khelben has been around a long time, but he never really had the spotlight like Drizzt has. You also have the twins coming so theres a huge storyline money maker waiting to happen. I mean look at Sylune they have slowly etched her out. You don't hear too much from Dove or Storm anymore. I hated to see the blackstaff go but I wanted Malchor Harpell to become the Blackstaff.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 11:56 PM	you got to be kidding, so all of the encounters KB had in his life were preset with no way he could lose until that moment in time, or nothing mattered to him but this event... -Here you go. His actual name, Akhelbhen , means, in Elven, ‘He whom Magic, Duty, and Honor Defines’. I often wondered what would happen if the WotC writers ever wrote about these characters with a little common sense applied, imagine what the novels would be like if they wrote about these characters decision with the same kinda decision they would make if they were actually playing them and trying not to get them killed off or putting themselfs in really stupid situations -For something like the third time today, I fail to see how the death of Khelben was a stupid situation, a poorly researched and executed situation, or a situation that lacked imagination and sense.
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 01:35 AM	i know I was going to put "SPOILER" Blackstaff questions. And my first sentence was going to be Whay Tsarra as the new Blackstaff but I goofed.I used to teach Autistic children, they never learned anything either. :rolleyes:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 03:02 AM	You have to look at all this from a business point of view. You can't write novels like you would being in a game. The book doesn't give the characters in the books of living or dying. Before these books go into print they are looked over. If Bob Salvatore got up one day and said I want Drizzt to die in my next book, WotC is going to talk him out of it because Drizzt is a money maker. Khelben has been around a long time, but he never really had the spotlight like Drizzt has. You also have the twins coming so theres a huge storyline money maker waiting to happen. I mean look at Sylune they have slowly etched her out. You don't hear too much from Dove or Storm anymore. I hated to see the blackstaff go but I wanted Malchor Harpell to become the Blackstaff. Well I wouldn’t be surprised if Drizzt wasn’t long for this world as well. However I think if they had spent just a little more time and patients they could have found a more reasonable way for the Backstaff to go out. The way they did it was not becoming of a Chosen. If they ever off EL in such a way I will have to take matters into my own hands and hunt down the writers like the Dogs they are.
Zevox 02-23-07, 03:07 AM	It's threads like these that make me truly despise the mindsets that the new rules system (and perhaps the oldest ones) seemed to promote amongst players. He died because it was time for him to go. Mechanics aside. Actually, he died because he wanted. Aye, permit me to repeat those. His main goal in life, the one Mystra had foretold to him when she Chose him, was complete. It required his life to complete, but he'd died before. He chose not to be resurrected this time because both the main goal he had in life was complete, and he was damn old. Living for centuries like that is going to wear on him quite badly, especially with the way things have gone recently with the tumults of Shade and the like. And now he had a worthy successor for the Blackstaff. It was time for him to go and have some peace at long last. Personally, I love the way this was handled. It makes perfect sense, and is almost poetic in a way. And it gives so many more plots to be pursued in the future - Khelben's twin children, Tsarra and how she'll do as the Blackstaff, the city they raised. A wonderful ending to the novel, and Khelben's life, in my opinion. Zevox
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 03:10 AM	Aye, permit me to repeat those. His main goal in life, the one Mystra had foretold to him when she Chose him, was complete. It required his life to complete, but he'd died before. He chose not to be resurrected this time because both the main goal he had in life was complete, and he was damn old. Living for centuries like that is going to wear on him quite badly, especially with the way things have gone recently with the tumults of Shade and the like. And now he had a worthy successor for the Blackstaff. It was time for him to go and have some peace at long last. Personally, I love the way this was handled. It makes perfect sense, and is almost poetic in a way. And it gives so many more plots to be pursued in the future - Khelben's twin children, Tsarra and how she'll do as the Blackstaff, the city they raised. A wonderful ending to the novel, and Khelben's life, in my opinion. Zevox Worthy successor? I disagree!
Zevox 02-23-07, 03:22 AM	Worthy successor? I disagree! She was melded with his mind. She knows most, if not all, of his secrets, not to mention has lived many of his experiences as though she were him. She and her familiar were both permanently, physically (at least in the familiar's case) and mentally altered by that link, and perhaps Tsarra's magical powers were affected as well. Nine Hells, if memory serves, Khelben mentions that she was even part of Mystra's prophecy about the raising of that city (which is why he had kept her so close to him in Blackstaff Tower), which means she was meant to succeed him anyway. I'd call her a worthy successor. Zevox
Stigger 02-23-07, 03:35 AM	Dunno... still seems kinda cheap. I'll admit that if I ever read the book I may have a change of perspective on the matter... which I must admit gets more and more tempting by the day, but it still seems like he had a lot more to do, with the Moonstars and all, some vague threat or other looming to destroy us all, all those things that were hinted at so infuriatingly in Cloak and Dagger. Maybe they do tie up those loose ends, but it just just like a chance to ditch and iconic character in favor of something new, just for the sake of doing it. I'll admit that is not an informed opinion per se, but you have to go with what your gut tells you oftentimes, and that's what mine is telling me about this.
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 12:13 PM	Aye, permit me to repeat those. His main goal in life, the one Mystra had foretold to him when she Chose him, was complete. It required his life to complete, but he'd died before. He chose not to be resurrected this time because both the main goal he had in life was complete, and he was damn old. Living for centuries like that is going to wear on him quite badly, especially with the way things have gone recently with the tumults of Shade and the like. And now he had a worthy successor for the Blackstaff. It was time for him to go and have some peace at long last. Personally, I love the way this was handled. It makes perfect sense, and is almost poetic in a way. -I completely agree. I fail to see how Khelben's death was anticlimactic. Had some dummy of an author arbitrarily had the Blackstaff killed via a nameless Orc's arrow, or something like that, I'd be disappointed. -But, in Blackstaff, Schend stuck true to who Khelben was, and what he stood for. As I was saying in another thread, Khelben was born a nameless Half-Elf. He was chosen (and, literally, Chosen) to fufill a great duty, and was named accordingly. He grew up at a distance with all of his friends, family, and so on, because of his Half-Elven nature, in Myth Drannor as well as Waterdeep. In the end, he completed his duty, and was finally accepted by those who shunned him almost all of his life. Let the poor guy rest in peace...He's surely earned it.
BrennonGoldeye 02-23-07, 12:21 PM	-But, in Blackstaff, Schend stuck true to who Khelben was, and what he stood for. As I was saying in another thread, Khelben was born a nameless Half-Elf. He was chosen (and, literally, Chosen) to fufill a great duty, and was named accordingly. He grew up at a distance with all of his friends, family, and so on, because of his Half-Elven nature, in Myth Drannor as well as Waterdeep. In the end, he completed his duty, and was finally accepted by those who shunned him almost all of his life. Let the poor guy rest in peace...He's surely earned it. Nailed. :bow:
HVulpes 02-23-07, 12:23 PM	-I completely agree. I fail to see how Khelben's death was anticlimactic. Had some dummy of an author arbitrarily had the Blackstaff killed via a nameless Orc's arrow, or something like that, I'd be disappointed. -But, in Blackstaff, Schend stuck true to who Khelben was, and what he stood for. As I was saying in another thread, Khelben was born a nameless Half-Elf. He was chosen (and, literally, Chosen) to fufill a great duty, and was named accordingly. He grew up at a distance with all of his friends, family, and so on, because of his Half-Elven nature, in Myth Drannor as well as Waterdeep. In the end, he completed his duty, and was finally accepted by those who shunned him almost all of his life. Let the poor guy rest in peace...He's surely earned it. Besides who says that he can not serve Mystra while in Arvandor (Sp?) acting as an adviser to and ambassador (sp?) of Mystra's will to Corelleon Larethian. Also I am not sure, but it is not necessary to be a worshipper of Mystra to be a choosen of Mystra. It helps but as long as you advance the cause of magic/protecting magic, you are doing your job as a choosen of Mystra. Besides his death was a sacrifice for what he believed in, like police officers or soldiers who die in the line of duty. Which is seen as a greater kind of death than just dying of illness or for selfish reasons. Just a couple of thoughts.
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 12:39 PM	Besides who says that he can not serve Mystra while in Arvandor (Sp?) acting as an adviser to and ambassador (sp?) of Mystra's will to Corelleon Larethian. Also I am not sure, but it is not necessary to be a worshipper of Mystra to be a choosen of Mystra. It helps but as long as you advance the cause of magic/protecting magic, you are doing your job as a choosen of Mystra. -Well, the Realms are pantheonic, and you don't have to simply choose one patron. But, look at Qilue, for instance. She is a Chosen of Mystra, and a priestess (and Chosen) of Eilistraee. This just goes to show that Mystra does not have to be their sole patron. -Also, in the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms (I don't even know where this one comes from. It was given to me by a friend), Dove is listed as a worshipper of Mielikki, Elminster is listed as having no specific patron, Storm is listed as worshipping Milil. So, yeah...
Alediran 02-23-07, 01:04 PM	Actualy Khelben was a Quarter-Elf, Arun Maerymidra (the first half-elf to be recognized as a noble of house Maerymidra) married a human women and they became Khelben's parents. I wonder what old Arun thinks about his son now.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 01:14 PM	-I completely agree. I fail to see how Khelben's death was anticlimactic. Had some dummy of an author arbitrarily had the Blackstaff killed via a nameless Orc's arrow, or something like that, I'd be disappointed. -But, in Blackstaff, Schend stuck true to who Khelben was, and what he stood for. As I was saying in another thread, Khelben was born a nameless Half-Elf. He was chosen (and, literally, Chosen) to fufill a great duty, and was named accordingly. He grew up at a distance with all of his friends, family, and so on, because of his Half-Elven nature, in Myth Drannor as well as Waterdeep. In the end, he completed his duty, and was finally accepted by those who shunned him almost all of his life. Let the poor guy rest in peace...He's surely earned it. Where did you get that Khelben was a half-elf? His father was a half-elf. He was nameless, but never a half-elf. At least according to the Novel. The reason it was anticlimactic for me was the senselessness of the whole thing. There were other ways to complete the spell. Even if there wasn’t anther way he should have been brought back. His wife is pregnant for Gods sakes! Really selfish to go die on your family especially when you don’t have to. It made about as much sense as Azoun’s death. His death made a little sense. He was tired from years of maintaining his Country. Kelben isn’t as old as EL and he hasn’t been through Hell, but you don’t see EL hanging up his hat ready to die!:confused: I don’t agree with killing time honored characters just so the authors can write something that shocks the readers. If you’re going to kill a chosen the circumstances have to be more then spectacular they have to be exceptionally rare something they would never have conceived of protecting themselves against. Not the old “well my job is done see you in the next life”. That was wore out after death of the Dragon!
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 01:57 PM	Where did you get that Khelben was a half-elf? His father was a half-elf. He was nameless, but never a half-elf. At least according to the Novel. -He is the son of a Half-Elf, making him a Quarter-Elf. I like rounding up to the nearest Half. ;) The reason it was anticlimactic for me was the senselessness of the whole thing. There were other ways to complete the spell. Even if there wasn’t anther way he should have been brought back. His wife is pregnant for Gods sakes! Really selfish to go die on your family especially when you don’t have to. -Resurrection is a spell in D&D that allows players to bring back their characters, so that they don't have to roll up new ones. Though Resurrection exists in the Realms, it is used extremely sparingly. Most of the time it is. The only time I've seen excessive Resurrections was in the novel Sacrifice of the Widow. In all other cases, the spell is not normally used. When a soul gets to it's final resting place, why bring it back? They've reached paradise. Look at that happened between Erevis Cale and his Halfling friend in the Erevis Cale Trilogy. He died, and was reunited with his family. Cale was going to bring him back from the dead, but then he realized that he was finally at peace. The same thing applies to Captain Starbrow Melruth in the Last Mythal Trilogy. He, however, was pulled away from paradise, from Arvandor. Notice how he was very meloncholy because ot that for a great deal of the trilogy? It made about as much sense as Azoun’s death. His death made a little sense. He was tired from years of maintaining his Country. -King Azoun VI fell in combat, though. It's not like he was really planning on dying. And, how is fufilling your duty pointless? Kelben isn’t as old as EL and he hasn’t been through Hell, but you don’t see EL hanging up his hat ready to die!:confused: -Elminster's has a different purpose than Khelben did, however. And, I think that Khelben has been through just as much as Elminster has, though in different forms and whatnot. I don’t agree with killing time honored characters just so the authors can write something that shocks the readers. -Like I said earlier, if some new chump author killed the Blackstaff, I would be very angry. But, this was Steve Schend. Khelben was practically his character. If Salvatore decided to kill an iconic character of his (Wulfgar, for example), no one would really say much, because it's his character to do with as he wants, as much as a shared world can have personal possessions. If you’re going to kill a chosen the circumstances have to be more then spectacular they have to be exceptionally rare something they would never have conceived of protecting themselves against. Not the old “well my job is done see you in the next life”. That was wore out after death of the Dragon! -You don't think that the circumstances of Khelben's death were spectacular? :uh-huh:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 02:18 PM	Spectacular maybe, but just not exceptional enough to warrant his death! He died for dramatic effect. I would argue his duties were not finished. He has a duty to his wife and children! Doesn’t he? They just wanted to leave a widow behind for teary eyed dramatic effect. I got a little chocked up for Azoun’s death, but all I could do is sneer at the pages for the Blackstaff. It was way too cheesy and unrealistic. It just didn’t make sense on any level. P.S. I want talking about resurrection. His wife was standing right there with a had full of Silver Fire. No thanks honey! I would rather die. Silly I say!
Stigger 02-23-07, 02:52 PM	Yep... that leaving Laeral alone and as a single mother part just doesn't really work in my head either. You'd think a guy who had as crap a childhood as Khelben would want to be there to make sure it didn't happen to his own kids at least...
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 03:08 PM	Dunno... still seems kinda cheap. I'll admit that if I ever read the book I may have a change of perspective on the matter..Don't. If you feel this way now, the novel will put you over the top. It was well written, and I enjoyed it... until the last chapter. Kinda left me going HUH? :confused: Exactly the way I felt when I read EiH, it almost seems the writers were running out of time and had to 'wrap things up quickly'. Talk about anti-climactic; I just didn't get it. What was the whole point? Technically, another RSE, although with long-range consequences. Was the story written expressly to give a reason to the years name? Thats the impression I got. And yeah, I never really 'liked' Khelben (his personality, not the character), but by the end of this book I was loving him and then BAM! Gone! WTF? We finally get to know 'the REAL Khelben', just to watch him die? I guess the tragedy of it makes for good writing, and I did enjoy it... it's just that it all seemed so... pointless. :nonono: If worshipping gods and being chosen means sacrifice, then I will gladly get mortared into the wall of the faithless.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 03:14 PM	Amen to that! If it comes down between serving a fickle Goddess like Mystra and the wall I’ll take the wall. Or better yet make a deal with one of the Devils and escape that fate. Sure hell will suck, but at least there is a chance of promotion. Kind of like working an office cubical but hotter!:D
Stigger 02-23-07, 03:26 PM	You've got a strange way of looking at the world LLKN... Better to serve in heaven than to rule in hell is the way I tend to approach the matter... But... I think I am going to go pick it up today, along with Dungeonscape, and give it a read, if only for the details about Khelben... I can always just ignore the last chapter :D
LittleCarp04 02-23-07, 03:29 PM	hmm i guess i should buy the book and read it so that i will be less confused lol
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 03:38 PM	But... I think I am going to go pick it up today, along with Dungeonscape, and give it a read, if only for the details about Khelben... I can always just ignore the last chapter :DYou're just doing that because I said not to. :P
Alediran 02-23-07, 04:16 PM	The same thing applies to Captain Starbrow Melruth in the Last Mythal Trilogy. He, however, was pulled away from paradise, from Arvandor. Notice how he was very meloncholy because ot that for a great deal of the trilogy? Actualy there where other reasons for his melancholy, the main beeing the fate of his wife when he was alive, that she walked with another one in arvandor, he choose to return to life to find the missing part of his life.
RooktheFury 02-23-07, 04:19 PM	What did Khelben even accomplish? I read the book, but I understood very little of the end. Something with the Sharn or something? Anyone care to elaborate and tell me what exactly happened? THANKS
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 04:32 PM	Answer: Xun: take note, this is what a spoiler looks like - The Sharn were, supposedly, survivors of the lost realm of Miyeritar, destroyed by the Gold Elves of Vyshanti. Also, it appears, their were a few 'others' who choose to become Sharn over the centuries to help gaurd the secret (that part is unclear). Anyhow, Miyeritar, a nation of Dark and Green Elves managed to some how 'preserve' their last city in memories (Kiir gems and other artifacts), allowing the Chosen and others to re-create the city of Rhymanthiin, and return the Sharn to their original forms. What boggles the mind is, that there were NO Dark Elves, or even Green Elves as far as I can tell, brought back. That is why the ritual made NO sense and was absolutely POINTLESS. :banghead:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 06:36 PM	You've got a strange way of looking at the world LLKN... Better to serve in heaven than to rule in hell is the way I tend to approach the matter... But... I think I am going to go pick it up today, along with Dungeonscape, and give it a read, if only for the details about Khelben... I can always just ignore the last chapter :D Sure I would rather serve in heaven, but not Mystra’s heaven! She’s an incompetent deity. Hell she wasn’t even that great a mage IMO. I would recommend ignoring the last chapter. I have always liked Khelben and by the end of the book I loved him Then they offed him! Really annoying.:rolleyes: Dungeonscape huh? Is that the never-ending dungeon Champaign world?
Stigger 02-23-07, 06:39 PM	Nope, the Environments book on dungeons, for core mostly, but pretty easy to plug into any setting. And I still prefer Mystra to pretty much anyone else, except for Sune. :P
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 06:43 PM	Nope, the Environments book on dungeons, for core mostly, but pretty easy to plug into any setting. And I still prefer Mystra to pretty much anyone else, except for Sune. :P Sune is quite the hotty and really underestimated as a Goddess. A lot of gamers treat her as one dimensional character focused completely on beauty. One must remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder. She might think a Deep Spawn is beauty on a whim! I hear what you are saying. Sune is ok with me. Mystra is annoying! Environments? Hummm I wonder what I was thinking of?!?!
Stigger 02-23-07, 06:49 PM	Love is the more interesting part of her portfolio to me. Love isn't just the romantic version, and her portfolio certainly isn't enumerated as only encompassing just that portion of the definition of love. Love of friends, love of family, love of country... powerful stuff that, just to name a few aspects of it. Personally, I see her as probably about on par with Mystra in terms of power, potentially even greater in some respects... but I still like Mystra. And no, I'm not going to read it just to spite you Markus... I'm a book junkie, and the discussion has piqued my interest in what little bits are revealed about him. I just won't ever finish it by reading the last chapter :D
ZolDarklock 02-23-07, 10:27 PM	the people on here sucking up to the authors is creating a vaccume a black hole would be proud of...
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 11:09 PM	No, quite the contrary, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Truth may hurt, but its more useful to someone trying to improve their skills then worthless praise. And no, I'm not going to read it just to spite you Markus... I'm a book junkie, and the discussion has piqued my interest in what little bits are revealed about him. I just won't ever finish it by reading the last chapter :DSo am I, thats why I read it. For the Realms lore alone its worth it; like Evermeet and El in Hell it gives you little 'glimpses' of Realms history. Little tiny things mentioned in various sources fall together, and increases your enjoyment of the setting as whole. That being said, I KNOW you really will read the last chapter. ;) Then you and I can kibits together in PMs. :D Also, if FR were real, EVERYONE would worship Sune. Who's heaven do you think will be more fun, her's or Cyric's? Mystras? How about Helm's? Helm: "Okay everyone, sword practice today" Petitioner: "Oh man, we did that the last six millenium....." Sorry, I'm a Sunite all the way! :P
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 11:58 PM	Also, if FR were real, EVERYONE would worship Sune. Who's heaven do you think will be more fun, her's or Cyric's? Mystras? How about Helm's? Helm: "Okay everyone, sword practice today" Petitioner: "Oh man, we did that the last six millenium....." Sorry, I'm a Sunite all the way! :P -Sune and Sharess. Sharess has that exotic look to her...She's part Elven and part Mulhorandi. Does it get better than that? ;) the people on here sucking up to the authors is creating a vaccume a black hole would be proud of... -Yeah. Notice how we are also making meaningful contributions to this thread as well... Yep... that leaving Laeral alone and as a single mother part just doesn't really work in my head either. You'd think a guy who had as crap a childhood as Khelben would want to be there to make sure it didn't happen to his own kids at least... -Unless...Perhaps Khelben took a page from Bane's book. In a couple of years, the tur Blackstaff will be emerging from the charred corpses of children...:cool: And yeah, I never really 'liked' Khelben (his personality, not the character), but by the end of this book I was loving him and then BAM! Gone! -The same exact thing happened to me. After reading the Songs & Swords books, I was never one of Khelben's fans, though I liked his name. But, after reading Blackstaff, I liked the guy. Actualy there where other reasons for his melancholy, the main beeing the fate of his wife when he was alive, that she walked with another one in arvandor, he choose to return to life to find the missing part of his life. -Captain Melruth specifically states, however, that it saddens him that he can no longer recall what it was like to be in Arvandor.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 12:07 AM	I used to teach Autistic children, they never learned anything either. :rolleyes: HEY!!!! I have a special needs child. Comments like that are way out of line. i would appreciate it if those didn't come to the boards.
Krash 02-24-07, 12:37 AM	The return of the Miyeritari and the creation of Rhymanthiin was hardly pointless. No dark elves returned simply because if they had come out of sharn shape, they would have instantly been transformed into drow by the lingering, pervasive magic of the Seldarine. Hence they chose to remain as sharn and be guardians of the new city. The new city is a haven - like Evereska - but is for all races. It is a multi-race city and will eventually come to the knowledge of the lands of Faerûn - but likely far in the future. -- George Krashos
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 12:47 AM	The Sharn actually predate Miyeritar. The Sharn as a race are not from the Miyeritari. Haven't any of you noticed how a lot of the "old" realms are coming back? You have the Deep Imaskari coming out along with the Imperial Tower from Inuprus returning. You have the kings tree in the old lands of Raumathar blooming again, Myth Drannor is back, Shade has returned, and now Miyeritar is back. Now the dwarves need to retake some of their old kingdoms. I'm waiting on Narfell to spring back to life and also Jhaamdath.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 12:49 AM	The return of the Miyeritari and the creation of Rhymanthiin was hardly pointless. No dark elves returned simply because if they had come out of sharn shape, they would have instantly been transformed into drow by the lingering, pervasive magic of the Seldarine. Hence they chose to remain as sharn and be guardians of the new city. The new city is a haven - like Evereska - but is for all races. It is a multi-race city and will eventually come to the knowledge of the lands of Faerûn - but likely far in the future. -- George Krashos But you also have to be invited to Miyeritar because everyone can't see it and won't know it's there.
Krash 02-24-07, 01:00 AM	The Sharn actually predate Miyeritar. Oh really? And just where did you read that? Now the dwarves need to retake some of their old kingdoms. I'm waiting on Narfell to spring back to life and also Jhaamdath. Neither is coming back. Trust me on that. -- George Krashos
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 01:03 AM	Oh really? And just where did you read that? Neither is coming back. Trust me on that. -- George Krashos The Sharn are a primordial race. The Miyeritari are not the Sharn. The people may have taken on their shapes but the Sharn are a seperate race.
Krash 02-24-07, 01:08 AM	The Sharn are a primordial race. The Miyeritari are not the Sharn. The people may have taken on their shapes but the Sharn are a seperate race. I assume you are basing your argument on the section in Monsters of Faerûn, p.77 which states: "Sharns are a highly magical race. Some scholars believe they are born of the essence of chaos itself, predating even dragons." Those scholars are wrong. -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 01:21 AM	The new city is a haven - like Evereska - but is for all races. Except for the one race that actually SHOULD have been brought back. They would have turned into DROW!? Corellon WAS THERE! Is he THAT MUCH of a pr_ck?! For once, the designers/authors had it within their grasp to right an ancient wrong, instead they bring back a bunch of BIGOTS?! Yeah... BIGOTS! The only Gold Elves around on the High Moor when the dark Disaster struck were the invading Vyshanti, so I can only assume those are the ones Khelben so nicely unleashed upon the Realms. They brought back Centaurs?! WTF??? Where in the world did he pull THAT ONE out of? They named every race being brought back to live in the city of hope, except the one race that deserved it. The INNOCENT Miyeritar dark Elves. I hope this new group pulls another High Magic RSE and destroys the place for good... its only a matter of time when it comes to Gold Elves. :rolleye2: HEY!!!! I have a special needs child. Comments like that are way out of line. i would appreciate it if those didn't come to the boards.You are right, and I am sorry. That was way out of line. I just get annoyed when its the same people arguiing all the time, its getting old fast.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 02:14 AM	I assume you are basing your argument on the section in Monsters of Faerûn, p.77 which states: "Sharns are a highly magical race. Some scholars believe they are born of the essence of chaos itself, predating even dragons." Those scholars are wrong. -- George Krashos I'm not sure about that. I believe the Sharn are a seperate race. Why would the people of Miyeritar create the Sharn wall to imprison the Phaerimm? The Sharn have a unique mind that enables them to cast one cleric spell and one wizard spell. They can open mini-portals, they can't have their forms changed, nobody can mimick their forms.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 02:18 AM	But the book says otherwise.... :noway:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 03:25 AM	The Sharn actually predate Miyeritar. The Sharn as a race are not from the Miyeritari. Haven't any of you noticed how a lot of the "old" realms are coming back? You have the Deep Imaskari coming out along with the Imperial Tower from Inuprus returning. You have the kings tree in the old lands of Raumathar blooming again, Myth Drannor is back, Shade has returned, and now Miyeritar is back. Now the dwarves need to retake some of their old kingdoms. I'm waiting on Narfell to spring back to life and also Jhaamdath. What novel brought back Myth Drannor? Imperial Tower was brought back by who? I think the city of Hope should be nuked! They should park Shade on top of it and empty their sewers! Yuk bastion of goodness! ewww There are enough of those!
Old Sage 02-24-07, 03:55 AM	I'm not sure about that. I believe the Sharn are a seperate race. Why would the people of Miyeritar create the Sharn wall to imprison the Phaerimm? The Sharn have a unique mind that enables them to cast one cleric spell and one wizard spell. They can open mini-portals, they can't have their forms changed, nobody can mimick their forms.I'll let Steven Schend answer this... "Realized I'd never answered this comment/question....my bad. The sharn were made of composite survivors and/or willing entrants who sacrificed their lives and knowledge to join the collective sharn. (Strange that a few years AFTER Ed, Eric, and I had discussed the sharn as one big collective underdark LAKE of sharnstuff that splintered off pieces to make individual sharn, Star Trek DS9 had the same idea for the Founders/shapeshifters.) No, not all the sharn came from the events in Chapter 20, though every living being in that Pentad enclave became sharn. The original sharn were the lorelords and such of Miyeritar--the 3 High Mages and the 80 that entered the storms as noted in a few places in the timelines. They took in a few other survivors who didn't get mentioned in elven histories, like the guards and scouts of Miyeritar--the centaurs. Over time, I figure there's been a few who've been offered salvation from certain death by joining the sharn, and a few folk of Uvaeren, Eaerlann, Ascalhorn, and many many other realms joined the collective. Thus, Rhymanthiin is going to be a hotbed of historical knowledge as there are now living denizens of many lost realms who can correct or compile information on places that have little (or perhaps have even been forgotten) detail. Does this help clarify things, Knight? Or just add more questions, as any good designer does? Steven Who highly recommends the very odd movie LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE to anyone who can attend R-rated movies" And - "It's inherently possible that some of the sharn could have been Netherese, just as they could have been refugees or survivors of any civilization that had a precipitous or sudden fall (i.e. Uvaeren, Ammarindar, villages stomped by the Black Hordes, etc.). As for why they fought the phaerimm, one of the sharns' hidden purposes at all times (and even now with those left) was to prevent abuses of magic and fight against corruptions on the Weave. As much of what the Phaerimm have done fall under those descriptions, they made themselves the sharns' enemies. (Case in point--we don't necessarily always hear all the news of what goes on in Thay, but I'd suspect that there are always sharn working against some of the worst abuses of magic therein...)"
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 04:09 AM	I'll let Steven Schend answer this... "Realized I'd never answered this comment/question....my bad. The sharn were made of composite survivors and/or willing entrants who sacrificed their lives and knowledge to join the collective sharn. (Strange that a few years AFTER Ed, Eric, and I had discussed the sharn as one big collective underdark LAKE of sharnstuff that splintered off pieces to make individual sharn, Star Trek DS9 had the same idea for the Founders/shapeshifters.) No, not all the sharn came from the events in Chapter 20, though every living being in that Pentad enclave became sharn. The original sharn were the lorelords and such of Miyeritar--the 3 High Mages and the 80 that entered the storms as noted in a few places in the timelines. They took in a few other survivors who didn't get mentioned in elven histories, like the guards and scouts of Miyeritar--the centaurs. Over time, I figure there's been a few who've been offered salvation from certain death by joining the sharn, and a few folk of Uvaeren, Eaerlann, Ascalhorn, and many many other realms joined the collective. Thus, Rhymanthiin is going to be a hotbed of historical knowledge as there are now living denizens of many lost realms who can correct or compile information on places that have little (or perhaps have even been forgotten) detail. Does this help clarify things, Knight? Or just add more questions, as any good designer does? Steven Who highly recommends the very odd movie LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE to anyone who can attend R-rated movies" And - "It's inherently possible that some of the sharn could have been Netherese, just as they could have been refugees or survivors of any civilization that had a precipitous or sudden fall (i.e. Uvaeren, Ammarindar, villages stomped by the Black Hordes, etc.). As for why they fought the phaerimm, one of the sharns' hidden purposes at all times (and even now with those left) was to prevent abuses of magic and fight against corruptions on the Weave. As much of what the Phaerimm have done fall under those descriptions, they made themselves the sharns' enemies. (Case in point--we don't necessarily always hear all the news of what goes on in Thay, but I'd suspect that there are always sharn working against some of the worst abuses of magic therein...)" Who appointed the Sharns guardians of the weave? Interesting about the Star Trek thing.
Krash 02-24-07, 08:22 AM	They aren't guardians of the Weave. What they don't like is people or races using magic to destroy or wreck an area's ecology and inhabitants. Why? Because that's exactly what happened to them when the Vyshaan destroyed Miyeritar. And it's why they couldn't sit back and let the phaerimm lifedrain magics engulf more of Faerûn than they did. -- George Krashos
Old Sage 02-24-07, 09:13 AM	Who appointed the Sharns guardians of the weave?No one appointed them guardians of the Weave. Read what Steven said -- essentially, the sharn have adopted this responsibility for themselves because of their past experiences with the abusive use of magic. They know and appreciate the level of destruction that can be wrought with abusive magical use and what corruption of the Weave can do. And that is why they have taken on this responsibility -- to prevent it happening elsewhere.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 02:17 PM	So the Goddess of Magic and all her chosen plus her pet Magister are all incompetent? So much so that an entire race had to be brought about to handle magical problems! Once again more evidence that Mystra is incompetent to the point of recklessness.
BrianCritchley 02-24-07, 03:35 PM	talk about taking something and misreading it. keep ikn mind Mystra and the chosen wheren't in existance when the sharn where created. Mystral was the one running the show, (who yes did seem to favor a reckless approuch to magic) futhermore, whose to say the sharn aren't acting as additional servants of Mystra, the chosen's purpose isn't to handle those kinda magical problems, although I'll note that in one recent case Elminister did sort of step in and make sure a wizard did forsee all the potential.. complications, of a spell he was researching
Zevox 02-24-07, 04:13 PM	the people on here sucking up to the authors is creating a vaccume a black hole would be proud of... Or maybe we're giving genuine, thought-out opinions here? Nah, couldn't be - after all, theres so much reason to suck up to authors, given every one of them reads these boards and doing so will benefit us in some way or shape or form. :rolleyes: Also, if FR were real, EVERYONE would worship Sune. Who's heaven do you think will be more fun, her's or Cyric's? Mystras? How about Helm's? Bah, that vain fool wouldn't get one prayer from me. Why waste eternity on serving someone representing something so meaningless as physical appearances? So the Goddess of Magic and all her chosen plus her pet Magister are all incompetent? So much so that an entire race had to be brought about to handle magical problems! Once again more evidence that Mystra is incompetent to the point of recklessness. Yeah, like Brian said, you're very much so misreading that. Not everyone who tries to prevent magic's misuse has anything at all to do with Mystra, and save for those few formed from her predcessors' worshipers the Sharn were totally unrelated to her. And the Chosen and the Magister's chief duties aren't to micromanage what everyone does with magic - they just step in form really big problems, and spend most of their time spreading and enhancing magic throughout the Realms. Based on Sage's post, the Sharn were interested in checking its misuse in general - Mystra isn't even allowed to do that, since it would be favoring goodly casters, and theres nowhere near enough Chosen to come close to accomplishing such a goal, so they don't try. Zevox
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 05:26 PM	I'll let Steven Schend answer this... "Realized I'd never answered this comment/question....my bad. The sharn were made of composite survivors and/or willing entrants who sacrificed their lives and knowledge to join the collective sharn. (Strange that a few years AFTER Ed, Eric, and I had discussed the sharn as one big collective underdark LAKE of sharnstuff that splintered off pieces to make individual sharn, Star Trek DS9 had the same idea for the Founders/shapeshifters.) No, not all the sharn came from the events in Chapter 20, though every living being in that Pentad enclave became sharn. The original sharn were the lorelords and such of Miyeritar--the 3 High Mages and the 80 that entered the storms as noted in a few places in the timelines. They took in a few other survivors who didn't get mentioned in elven histories, like the guards and scouts of Miyeritar--the centaurs. Over time, I figure there's been a few who've been offered salvation from certain death by joining the sharn, and a few folk of Uvaeren, Eaerlann, Ascalhorn, and many many other realms joined the collective. Thus, Rhymanthiin is going to be a hotbed of historical knowledge as there are now living denizens of many lost realms who can correct or compile information on places that have little (or perhaps have even been forgotten) detail. Does this help clarify things, Knight? Or just add more questions, as any good designer does? Steven Who highly recommends the very odd movie LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE to anyone who can attend R-rated movies" And - "It's inherently possible that some of the sharn could have been Netherese, just as they could have been refugees or survivors of any civilization that had a precipitous or sudden fall (i.e. Uvaeren, Ammarindar, villages stomped by the Black Hordes, etc.). As for why they fought the phaerimm, one of the sharns' hidden purposes at all times (and even now with those left) was to prevent abuses of magic and fight against corruptions on the Weave. As much of what the Phaerimm have done fall under those descriptions, they made themselves the sharns' enemies. (Case in point--we don't necessarily always hear all the news of what goes on in Thay, but I'd suspect that there are always sharn working against some of the worst abuses of magic therein...)" Even though I have to accept it, I personally think this is stupid. I liked the Sharn being an unknown old race that spawned from a time long forgotten. My respect for the authors and design team is falling very rapidly.
Stigger 02-24-07, 05:53 PM	Bah, that vain fool wouldn't get one prayer from me. Why waste eternity on serving someone representing something so meaningless as physical appearances? Physical appearances is hardly the sum total or meaning behind Sune's portfolio. Love, Beauty, Passion... hardly equate to mere base appearance of a living being. Love is a tremendously encompassing portfolio, ranging from love of friends, family, country, spouse, and of course self, to quite a few things in between. Beauty is hardly limited to the mere appearance of a mortal shell. Natural beauty, as in landscapes, artistic beauty, as in artworks of all varieties, written beauty of prose and poetry, and of course the beauty of physical form for a living being. Passion... well, that's hardly limited to physical lusts and the sphere of the carnal. A passion for anything indicates great emotion and enthusiasm for a given field of endeavor and enjoyment, not simply some bast lust satisfied and then tossed aside. You have a passion for athletics, a passion for poetry, a passion for cooking... it's a tremendously nebulous, but amazingly powerful portfolio to possess... it can shape the world more than magic can in many respects really.
Krash 02-24-07, 06:00 PM	Even though I have to accept it, I personally think this is stupid. I liked the Sharn being an unknown old race that spawned from a time long forgotten. My respect for the authors and design team is falling very rapidly. It is not stupid. You demean yourself more with that comment than you can possibly imagine. Fine, you don't agree with a particular author's creative choice and decisions. That's your prerogative. But don't call such a decision 'stupid'. It's simply different from the choice you would have made. As it's now done, your choice is to learn to live with it, ignore it or change aspects of it to suit your own ideas of 'what should be'. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 06:40 PM	-Krash, don't bother. It's arguing with a brick wall...:banghead:
Old Sage 02-24-07, 07:30 PM	Even though I have to accept it, I personally think this is stupid. I liked the Sharn being an unknown old race that spawned from a time long forgotten. My respect for the authors and design team is falling very rapidly.::shakes head:: And how, exactly, is it stupid? Everything we've learned about the sharn recently, thanks to Steven Schend's efforts in Blackstaff, would seem to indicate this development is merely an extension of the older lore. Which is something most, including myself, usually appreciate. I'm curious as to why you'd make such a ridiculous statement.
Old Sage 02-24-07, 07:39 PM	So the Goddess of Magic and all her chosen plus her pet Magister are all incompetent? So much so that an entire race had to be brought about to handle magical problems! Once again more evidence that Mystra is incompetent to the point of recklessness.You're not looking at the bigger picture. Ed has told us how the Weave is such an infinitely complex facet of the Realms -- something that can never be easily understood. And the Magister and the Chosen can only *do* so much at any one time. Consider, instead, that the sharn are merely another element in the Realms who are dedicated to protecting the integrity of the Weave and the useful application of the Art. Perhaps even to the point of handling tasks that aren't otherwise routinely "looked after" by either the Chosen or the Magister. This would seem to play well with what Steven said earlier about the sharn focusing on other magically abusive powers -- like the Red Wizards for example and the arcane happenings in Thay.
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 07:49 PM	-Sage, you too are arguing with a brick wall...:rolleyes:
Zevox 02-24-07, 07:59 PM	Physical appearances is hardly the sum total or meaning behind Sune's portfolio. Love, Beauty, Passion... hardly equate to mere base appearance of a living being. Love is a tremendously encompassing portfolio, ranging from love of friends, family, country, spouse, and of course self, to quite a few things in between. Beauty is hardly limited to the mere appearance of a mortal shell. Natural beauty, as in landscapes, artistic beauty, as in artworks of all varieties, written beauty of prose and poetry, and of course the beauty of physical form for a living being. Passion... well, that's hardly limited to physical lusts and the sphere of the carnal. A passion for anything indicates great emotion and enthusiasm for a given field of endeavor and enjoyment, not simply some bast lust satisfied and then tossed aside. You have a passion for athletics, a passion for poetry, a passion for cooking... it's a tremendously nebulous, but amazingly powerful portfolio to possess... it can shape the world more than magic can in many respects really. *shrugs* I could give reasons why I wouldn't be praying to her for each point you made, then go to her dogma for further explanation of why I'd ignore her from that, but those are just my thoughts and opinions, and slightly beside the point. The point was that its very erroneous to assume everyone would venerate Sune if those of us on Earth were in Faerûn instead. Zevox
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 08:13 PM	But who's afterlife sounds like more fun? That was MY point, I want to go to the plane of never-ending parties! :D -Sage, you too are arguing with a brick wall...:rolleyes:And he should know better by now. ;) As much as it disgusts me to do so, I now am forced to come to the novels defense, if only because Sage seems to have missed an important point - If the Sharn have been the caretakers of the Weave since time -immemorial, then perhaps the original Sharn were some sort of manifestation of the Weave itself, almost like 'anti-bodies'. Over the course of untold millenia, various personages and groups who, for whatever tragic reason, found themselves in a situation where death was unavoidable, then they received this 'escape route'. It is unknown as of yet who offers them this choice, wheather it is a god or the Sharn, or perhaps in some primitive self-aware way the Weave itself. Who knows? The thing that makes sense about the ending, for me anyway, is that most of the Sharn can now revert to their original forms, BECAUSE the Weave has new Caretakers, like Chosen and perhaps the magister. Some are still needed, but these others have now 'taken up the gauntlet', as it were. It shows at a certain level that the Weave is 'maturing', and no longer needs some of its primitive self-defense mechanisms anymore. Just my take, I'm still trying to make some sense of it all... :thinks:
BrianCritchley 02-24-07, 08:20 PM	also, Mystra has the chosen and the magister, and her preists. she's got lots of differnt servants to carry out her adgenda, whose to say the sharn don't likewise serve her?
Old Sage 02-24-07, 08:49 PM	As much as it disgusts me to do so, I now am forced to come to the novels defense, if only because Sage seems to have missed an important point - If the Sharn have been the caretakers of the Weave since time -immemorial, then perhaps the original Sharn were some sort of manifestation of the Weave itself, almost like 'anti-bodies'. Over the course of untold millenia, various personages and groups who, for whatever tragic reason, found themselves in a situation where death was unavoidable, then they received this 'escape route'. It is unknown as of yet who offers them this choice, wheather it is a god or the Sharn, or perhaps in some primitive self-aware way the Weave itself. Who knows?Except that there's nothing in the Realmslore to support your "anti-body" theory. The creation of these sharn, as noted in Blackstaff, developed as Steven said in the tidbits I posted from him above. The thing that makes sense about the ending, for me anyway, is that most of the Sharn can now revert to their original forms, BECAUSE the Weave has new Caretakers, like Chosen and perhaps the magister. Some are still needed, but these others have now 'taken up the gauntlet', as it were.You're forgetting the fact that if the sharn return to their original form, they're likely to be affected by the Seldarine's pervasive magic and transformed into drow.
Stigger 02-24-07, 09:09 PM	Fair enough Zevox. Wasn't really trying to defend the 'everyone worship Sune' thing so much as defend against what I felt was a bad perception of her and her portfolio. Besides, there wouldn't be other deities around if she was the end-all-be-all of deities that was right for everyone. :D Though on another note, I like the anti-body idea, despite it not really having a place within canon. Think I might have to house rule that one.... thanks for the idea Markus.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 10:14 PM	thanks for the idea Markus.No problem, I'm just trying to work some of it out for myself. You're forgetting the fact that if the sharn return to their original form, they're likely to be affected by the Seldarine's pervasive magic and transformed into drow.So you're saying NONE of the Sharn were returned to their original forms? Now I'm REALLY confused, did we read the same novel? And I wasn't saying it was CANON, I specifically used the word 'perhaps', in order to consolidate the two seperate theories on the Sharn. The sourcebooks hint at them being 'ancient gaurdians', and Shend's novel makes them out to be 'survivors from the past'. here I am trying to reconcile two sides of an argument so we can all get along, and you go and blast me. I just don't get these forums sometimes... :rolleye2:
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 11:18 PM	::shakes head:: And how, exactly, is it stupid? Everything we've learned about the sharn recently, thanks to Steven Schend's efforts in Blackstaff, would seem to indicate this development is merely an extension of the older lore. Which is something most, including myself, usually appreciate. I'm curious as to why you'd make such a ridiculous statement. Because the idea of the Sharn coming from the primordial chaos sounds better. When the Sharn were a mystery it made them more interesting. I would rather have them as a seperate race. And yes I think the whole outcome is stupid. That is my opinion, you don't have to like itand I am not asking you to like it. The outcome of the Sharn conflicts with some of the other encounters with Sharn. Their thoughts were alien, like the one that was captured in the Dire wood during the Return of the Archwizards. The one who's soul was trapped by the demi-lich. In my opinion this could have had a better out come. Thats right shake your heads, beat them on the wall, say some smart ass comment, but that is my free god given opinion on the matter. Those of you who may agree that the out come turned out fine, then thats great, but don't look down or try and make those who disagree any less of a person because they give their opinion. Cause guess what? Looking down on people doesn't make you look cool or intelligent or great. It makes you look like a prick. Everybody here has a right to their opinion and they also have the right not to have to put up with anybody's crap.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 11:30 PM	This is what I don't get. Ok I haven't found anything solid on what the drow looked like before the descent. Now Corellon forced the drow into the descent, and all drow now came from those originals. Why would those not affected then be transformed now? There is no lingering magical effect going on. Who's to say that these original Ilythiiri can't be redeemed? I thought it was the evil in the hearts of the Ilythiiri that helped turn them into the drow. If these few have no evil in their hearts why curse them? What if they wish to worship Corellon, would Corellon turn down a worshiper who happens to be drow. You would think this would be the road to salvation.
Krash 02-24-07, 11:39 PM	Thats right shake your heads, beat them on the wall, say some smart ass comment, but that is my free god given opinion on the matter. Those of you who may agree that the out come turned out fine, then thats great, but don't look down or try and make those who disagree any less of a person because they give their opinion. Cause guess what? Looking down on people doesn't make you look cool or intelligent or great. It makes you look like a prick. Everybody here has a right to their opinion and they also have the right not to have to put up with anybody's crap. Everyone does have a right to their opinion. What they don't have is the right to be out and out insulting when expressing it. It's like me calling your preference for the 'primordial sharn' theory "moronic", because I don't agree with it. No-one is putting you down or 'making you less of a person' - I just want you to show some basic manners, a dash of maturity and some respect to an individual who has done more for the Realms than all but a select few. -- George Krashos
ZolDarklock 02-24-07, 11:55 PM	WotC and the authors have the right, yes we know that DUH! the point is having the right doesn't excuse bad plot lines for us, it may for you, but not for the rest of us sorry, it was his time to die he did his duty and he wanted to rip ******** is a bunch of crap, especially if you have kids in the mind of someone who is not a moron, putting yourself in any kind of harms way when you got kids to consider is unacceptable, to do otherwise would make you a complete idiot, and apparently the author made Khelben a complete idiot in the end yes that is my opinon, if it walks, talks, and acts like a idiot, then it's a idiot to me
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 11:57 PM	Because the idea of the Sharn coming from the primordial chaos sounds better. When the Sharn were a mystery it made them more interesting. -In your opinon...I, on the other hand, felt that was "stupid". How many ancient races that predate everything can there possibly exist? ...the Return of the Archwizards. -The Return of the Archwizards Trilogy is one of the worst places to absorb Realmslore from, as Denning threw the "book out the window" numerous times. ...but that is my free god given opinion on the matter. -Capital 'G' in G-d, not lower case 'g'. ;) This is what I don't get. Ok I haven't found anything solid on what the drow looked like before the descent. -They looked more-or-less what they look like now. The Ssri'Tel'Quessir had ebon skin and white hair. The only major physical difference would be their eyes. Now Corellon forced the drow into the descent, and all drow now came from those originals. Why would those not affected then be transformed now? -Corellon did not force them. The Dark Elves of Illythir did it to themselves. Had they not been so...warlike, and had they not accepted Lolth as their patron, they wouldn't have wound up living in the Underdark, presumerably. There is no lingering magical effect going on. -There is, however. Who's to say that these original Ilythiiri can't be redeemed? -The original Illythiiri are long dead. The Drow who exist now are far removed from Ancient Illythiir, and have had centuries of cross-breeding with Drow from other nations who Descended. But, anyway, redeeming Drow is the main focus of Eilistraee's faith. In another thread, I was also discussing a Heresy of Corellon Larethian, where his followers extended the laurel branch to Drow a little more often, much like Eilistraee does. I thought it was the evil in the hearts of the Ilythiiri that helped turn them into the drow. If these few have no evil in their hearts why curse them? -Ever hear the expression "the minority ruined it for the majority"? Here it is in application. The High Magic that transformed the Dark Elves into Drow did not differentiate 'Good' Dark Elves from 'Bad' Dark Elves. What if they wish to worship Corellon, would Corellon turn down a worshiper who happens to be drow. You would think this would be the road to salvation. -Corellon Larethian does have Drow worshippers, and a few Drow priests/priestess', as per Demihuman Deities.
MaskedOne 02-25-07, 01:04 AM	sorry, it was his time to die he did his duty and he wanted to rip ******** is a bunch of crap, especially if you have kids in the mind of someone who is not a moron, putting yourself in any kind of harms way when you got kids to consider is unacceptable, to do otherwise would make you a complete idiot, and apparently the author made Khelben a complete idiot in the end As over half of the extended relatives of mine that I can easily put on a list going back 2 generations have police, military and/or firefighting experience often when they did have children, please forgive me when I do not accept logic that relegates over half my bloodline to the category of moron for performing services to the people. In return for this minor clemency on your part, I will try to ignore the sheer amount of my family that you have so blithely disregarded the service and sacrifices of as well as the general insult to their collective intelligence. Thank you for that wondrous insight into unique and interesting logic. Moving on, the spell required a life to seal it. Accepting healing would negate the whole thing. Lack of ressurection is some other soul's argument to make or not make. I neither know nor care particularly why Khelben wasn't brought back.
ZolDarklock 02-25-07, 01:11 AM	Khelben had the means to ensure he got brought back, if you relatives in the fire and police dept willing let there life be over when the had the means to live on, then yes they would in my opinion be morons come on people get real and think with a little common sense
MaskedOne 02-25-07, 01:20 AM	Phrase your comments with half an ounce of precision and I'll interpret them somewhat precisely. The difference between unnecessary suicide and putting oneself in harm's way can cover the atlantic with relative ease. As you said harm's way you got the response I considered appropriate. You prefer to rant at him for unnecessary suicide and unless I have evidence that his death was required then I'll ignore you.
Old Sage 02-25-07, 03:23 AM	And I wasn't saying it was CANON, I specifically used the word 'perhaps', in order to consolidate the two seperate theories on the Sharn. The sourcebooks hint at them being 'ancient gaurdians'...That's fine. Though, I think you're placing far too much emphasis on what you read in MoF regarding the sharn. You shouldn't. As Krash noted earlier... those references aren't exactly considered "accurate", given other lore on the sharn. here I am trying to reconcile two sides of an argument so we can all get along, and you go and blast me.Your theory is fine, as a "theory", and something for use in your own campaign. However, I find fault with it because of the pre-existing Realmslore regarding the origins and development of the sharn. That's all. I apologise if you felt slighted by my earlier comments.
Old Sage 02-25-07, 03:24 AM	Because the idea of the Sharn coming from the primordial chaos sounds better. When the Sharn were a mystery it made them more interesting. I would rather have them as a seperate race. And yes I think the whole outcome is stupid. That is my opinion, you don't have to like itand I am not asking you to like it. The outcome of the Sharn conflicts with some of the other encounters with Sharn. Their thoughts were alien, like the one that was captured in the Dire wood during the Return of the Archwizards. The one who's soul was trapped by the demi-lich. In my opinion this could have had a better out come. Thats right shake your heads, beat them on the wall, say some smart ass comment, but that is my free god given opinion on the matter. Those of you who may agree that the out come turned out fine, then thats great, but don't look down or try and make those who disagree any less of a person because they give their opinion. Cause guess what? Looking down on people doesn't make you look cool or intelligent or great. It makes you look like a prick. Everybody here has a right to their opinion and they also have the right not to have to put up with anybody's crap.I think Krash answered this well enough. I'm moving on.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-25-07, 03:59 AM	Khelben had the means to ensure he got brought back, if you relatives in the fire and police dept willing let there life be over when the had the means to live on, then yes they would in my opinion be morons come on people get real and think with a little common sense So are you saying Khelben was suicidal?
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 08:52 AM	Just to explain myself, Sage - I'll let Steven Schend answer this... "Realized I'd never answered this comment/question....my bad. The sharn were made of composite survivors and/or willing entrants who sacrificed their lives and knowledge to join the collective sharn. When I read this, I took it to mean that there ALREADY was a collective Sharn (The primordial version) that these NEW Sharn joined with. Not everyone reads things the same way, you know. If that is NOT what Mr. Shend meant by this, then I stand corrected So the Goddess of Magic and all her chosen plus her pet Magister are all incompetent? So much so that an entire race had to be brought about to handle magical problems! Once again more evidence that Mystra is incompetent to the point of recklessness.This is the statement I was actually addressing, while taking YOUR SIDE. I was simply explaining that PERHAPS this is why Mystra felt she can release some of the Sharn of their former duties at this time, BECAUSE she has all of these newer servants working on her behalf. That is why I got miffed, I was on your side, and you turned on me… :nonono: Must be halfling……. :smirk: And as far as Khelben's sacrifice, he had already set the wheels in motion BEFORE he knew Laeral was pregnant. There was no way of turning back, and he thought he was actually making the world a better place FOR his children. It was all a waste of time of course, since he didn't actually bring back ANY Miyeritar Elves.....
Soltares 02-25-07, 10:28 AM	So Khelban has joined Azoun on the scrap-heap of good-aligned male characters shuffled off the mortal coil? 200 quatloos on Piergeron Paladinson dying next! It will be so much easier to keep the geopolitics straight when he and Elminster are out of the way and one can point at the map and say, 'country ruled by a dude = evil,' 'country ruled by a long-legged, large-bosomed, wild-maned blonde who is in no way a cookie-cutter stereotype = good.'
Stigger 02-25-07, 11:37 AM	Seems to me that if he waited as long as he did, it wouldn't have been that difficult to figure out a way to prepare a ritual that didn't require anyone dying... going by those epic spell modifiers at least. Maybe that doesn't work dramatically, but mechanically speaking it wouldn't have required that much effort for the comparative payoff.... hence my major problem with the whole event as I understand it. The children issue simply compounds that problem in my mind.
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 03:40 PM	You haven't read it, have you? It was pre-ordained, and he knew about the dying part for 900 years! No escaping destiny......
Lord Karsus 02-25-07, 04:04 PM	the point is having the right doesn't excuse bad plot lines for us, it may for you, but not for the rest of us -You do realize that Blackstaff is one of the most critically acclaimed FR novels written in the past ten years or so, as per the upper echelons of Realmslore scholars, right? sorry, it was his time to die he did his duty and he wanted to rip ******** is a bunch of crap, especially if you have kids in the mind of someone who is not a moron, putting yourself in any kind of harms way when you got kids to consider is unacceptable, to do otherwise would make you a complete idiot, and apparently the author made Khelben a complete idiot in the end. -You are very bitter about this issue. So, basically, the 100,000 + members of the Armed Services, who have children, are morons? So, because they are professional soldiers, and live with the cloud of death looming over them, so that you can buy a book, read it, and then criticize it, and have families, they are all morons because they don't disobey their orders? -Right...I know that if, in the future, G-d told me to do something that would likely end my life, I would do it, regardless of family. Hey, G-d told Abraham to kill his child, and he was going to do it, too!
selunatic2397 02-25-07, 05:32 PM	This thread is just another attempt at trolling.... Just like the "How Do I Kill Elminster" thread. Nothing we say or do will do anything but stoke a troll's ego and get twisted into gibberish... Stop feeding the troll and let this thread die.
Crust 02-25-07, 06:22 PM	This thread is just another attempt at trolling.... Just like the "How Do I Kill Elminster" thread. Nothing we say or do will do anything but stoke a troll's ego and get twisted into gibberish... Stop feeding the troll and let this thread die. And what a refreshing coincidence it is. :smirk: I see no problem with the events of Blackstaff, and it's certainly quite ignorant to call them "stupid." Schend is a Realm's architect, and his work deserves better scrutiny. And it's not as if the image of Khelben is lost. His presense is still there to a certain degree. I know if my PCs inquire about Blackstaff Tower, there will be no knowlege of Khelben's death, and Tsarra will not be considered the new Blackstaff (at least not openly). In fact, it will be as if the events of Blackstaff had never happened as far as the PCs are concerned... should they ever have a reason to even think about the truth about Khelben, which they probably won't.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-25-07, 06:35 PM	The truth about Blackstaffs demise will become public knowledge in time. Why would they hide it?
Crust 02-25-07, 06:54 PM	The truth about Blackstaffs demise will become public knowledge in time. Why would they hide it? I remember Schend saying on another forum that Blackstaff's death wouldn't be advertised. I would imagine it might draw rivals who would perhaps consider the Tower's protection compromised with Khelben's absence.
Stigger 02-25-07, 06:59 PM	Not a big believer in pre-destination to be honest... just started it though, so perhaps I'll have changed my mind in a few days.
Aok 02-25-07, 08:21 PM	I remember Schend saying on another forum that Blackstaff's death wouldn't be advertised. I would imagine it might draw rivals who would perhaps consider the Tower's protection compromised with Khelben's absence. I don't believe they have to worry about the "Old" tower anymore. With the sacrifices of the the Sharn as protectors of the city, the "New" Tower in Rhymanthiin has even greater defenses because the Sharn will defend it. Plus, Tsarra is the Queen of the new City so I dont think she'll be returning except to collect all the belongings and to show the students the way. Personally, I would like to see some balancing acts start to be performed. Both Cormanthyr and Rhymanthiin have been rebuilt. Cormanthyr has the Mythal and Rhymanthiin has the Sharn. Two great cities now reformed for the completely good. New Good characters continue to come out of the woodwork with almost god-like powers... Araevin can practically create a mythal by himself (a tenth level spell), and now Tsarra has all of Blackstaffs knowledge. Plus the twins are on their way. I would definitely like to see some evil.
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 08:54 PM	Two great cities now reformed for the completely good...Ummmm, Gold Elves are in charge, maybe you should rethink that. Tintageer, The Sundering, Vyshantii Empire, the Dark Disaster, Jamdath, Demonfey, Edreth Valuthra, etc, etc....
MaskedOne 02-25-07, 09:49 PM	Gold elves also provide fun people like Eltargrim who opened up Cormanthyr, creating Myth Drannor and another elf who serves as Amlauril's agent abroad and has done so loyally for decades. They're occasionally annoying but it is no more appropriate to demonize them than it is for the Eldreth Veluthra to demonize humanity. As for evil, the phaerimm are loose as are the Shadovar. Two restored cities of good vs a city of evil and a sociopathic species. Numeric balance but wait it gets better, Cormyr has lost a couple cities, a couple ancient guards, a sizable portion of the military, half the Royal family and hey just maybe a decent portion of its food supply. Major now halfway to paralyzed in world affairs. Evermeet, the joyous place has lost over half its High Magi in under 30 years, not to mention a decent portion of its military. Evereska might almost be better off than Cormyr but I'm not betting on it. I'd prefer not to decimate good in the name of balance.
Stigger 02-25-07, 11:53 PM	QFT MaskedOne. As to the whole Khelben thing... after reading that prologue, the ending makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Still haven't finished it, but the context of the opening changes everything, at least for now.
ZolDarklock 02-26-07, 12:05 AM	Karsus Quote: -You are very bitter about this issue. So, basically, the 100,000 + members of the Armed Services, who have children, are morons? So, because they are professional soldiers, and live with the cloud of death looming over them, so that you can buy a book, read it, and then criticize it, and have families, they are all morons because they don't disobey their orders? this is really sad Karsus since after that quote of mine I specifically detailed the difference between khelbens and the excuse use of military, police, and other real world jobs that are risky, of course you read that and still printed the garbage above seems your not only a little bitter but also a little underhanded in your posting tactics, that post Karsus was really a sad pathetic attempt to shore up your opinion on the matter, if you cant give a good arguement at least concede with diginty, or go away quietly, such tactics are really scummy, I have seen such tactics used by others, but was really surprised to see you stoop to that level... ps - even khelben knows that while mystra is called a god, she is not a so-called god on the sscale of a creator of the entire universe, he knows there are powers above her "ao to name one" and even the so-called over-lord is nothing more than a servant to those more powerful than it...so your pathetic attempt to use are real world god as an example of how you would die unquestionable for him if he asked is ridiculous in comparison, would you die in the real world if the alter boy of your'e local church asked you to, someone that is not the all encompassing power of universe, that scenario you used was really pathetic
MaskedOne 02-26-07, 12:28 AM	QFT MaskedOne. Not familiar with the abbreviation QFT. Mind elaborating?
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 01:16 AM	-What the hess are you talking about? this is really sad Karsus since after that quote of mine I specifically detailed the difference between khelbens and the excuse use of military, police, and other real world jobs that are risky, of course you read that and still printed the garbage above -What you said was that if they had means to return to life, and didn't accept them, that they are morons. Any soldier has a "way to return to life"- refusing to be deployed, being a conscientious objector, all that stuff. Thus, according to the logic, all soldiers are still morons. I'm only going by what you said, and expanding on that logic... seems your not only a little bitter but also a little underhanded in your posting tactics, that post Karsus was really a sad pathetic attempt to shore up your opinion on the matter, if you cant give a good arguement at least concede with diginty, or go away quietly, such tactics are really scummy, I have seen such tactics used by others, but was really surprised to see you stoop to that level... -I'm not bitter. Puzzled as to how your logic works, more like it. The entire point of these posts are to share our opinions. I did just that. ps - even khelben knows that while mystra is called a god, she is not a so-called god on the sscale of a creator of the entire universe, he knows there are powers above her "ao to name one" and even the so-called over-lord is nothing more than a servant to those more powerful than it... -If you can find a single piece of evidence to back the claim that Khelben is aware of Ao, and Ao's Master, especially, I will publicly praise you as one of the most astute posters on these boards. so your pathetic attempt to use are real world god as an example of how you would die unquestionable for him if he asked is ridiculous in comparison, would you die in the real world if the alter boy of your'e local church asked you to, someone that is not the all encompassing power of universe, that scenario you used was really pathetic -If the alter boy of the nearest church asked me to kill myself, I would either: A) Ignore him B) Laugh, and then ignore him C) Point out that his religion is based on factual inconsistencies and lies, and then walk away -Might I also introduce you to a little something called grammar. Use it. Also, personally attacking a poster, as you so clearly did many times, is against the WotC Boards CoC. I'm not reporting you now, but consider yourself warned...
MaskedOne 02-26-07, 01:38 AM	Lacking an interest letting this become personal again on my part. I am presuming that Zol meant that should a soldier die the line of duty and somehow be offered ressurection then they would be a moron not to take it. I will further assume that this miraculous ressurection would be offered without a price tag. If I am wrong, well, let's skip that thought. Moving on El has met AO. More than that, at some point in the avatar trilogy, he explained the existence of AO to one or more of the protagonists (I think). I do not remember off hand if Khelben was on hand for that discussion. It would not be inconcievable to think that he learned of AO though. I can think of no evidence off hand that he or any mortal is aware of AO's boss.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 01:44 AM	I can think of no evidence off hand that he or any mortal is aware of AO's boss. -Which was where I placed the emphasis.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 01:58 AM	As a Soldier of 11 years I would rather we not draw parallels, between our much loved fantasy setting and real life death. Lets keep the fantasy as fantastic as possible.
MaskedOne 02-26-07, 02:07 AM	Barring surprises, I'm done with that tangent. I won't speak for others.
Stigger 02-26-07, 03:01 AM	QFT = Quoted for Truth, or something to that effect, as in I completely and utterly agree... just me being lazy again. From what I understand, pretty much everyone in the city, and more than a few other places, is aware of Ao, given that whole cult of his existing in Waterdeep (amongst other places)... hard to imagine Khelben not being aware of him really. As to his boss, I've no idea if that was said as an aside to said boss, or said aloud for all to hear, but if it were the latter, again, hard to reason that Khelben doesn't know about it, at the least as second-hand information. As to the arguement, just stop. It's a silly semantical arguement that doesn't need to happen, as I'm sure you're both perfectly capable of figuring out what the other means, and not distorting it for what appears to be purely antagonisms sake.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 03:19 AM	QFT = Quoted for Truth, or something to that effect, as in I completely and utterly agree... just me being lazy again. From what I understand, pretty much everyone in the city, and more than a few other places, is aware of Ao, given that whole cult of his existing in Waterdeep (amongst other places)... hard to imagine Khelben not being aware of him really. As to his boss, I've no idea if that was said as an aside to said boss, or said aloud for all to hear, but if it were the latter, again, hard to reason that Khelben doesn't know about it, at the least as second-hand information. As to the arguement, just stop. It's a silly semantical arguement that doesn't need to happen, as I'm sure you're both perfectly capable of figuring out what the other means, and not distorting it for what appears to be purely antagonisms sake. I think the Maskedone was referring to the reference at the end of the Waterdeep novel where AO reports to his superior. Or Over-over-deity! If such a thing exists.Also no one in the book witnesses this except for AO and the reader.
Stigger 02-26-07, 04:50 AM	I knew the reference, but I've never actually read them. Wasn't until recently that I've ever seen all three books in one place, and by then I kinda got turned off the idea of them by hanging around here. :D
Alediran 02-26-07, 07:26 AM	Ummmm, Gold Elves are in charge, maybe you should rethink that. The Sundering, Vyshantii Empire, the Dark Disaster, Eldreth Veluuthra These things weren't made by gold elves alone or as the main race. The Sundering was the greatest High Magic Spell, casted by almost all High Mages (Sun, Moon and Wood/Wild Elves) of that time. Vyshantii Empire was realy only one clan that was corrupted by Malkizid. When the Elven Court was created, all elves discovered that only the Vyshantii were guilty of the crimes. The Dark Disaster, same as The Sundering Eldreth Veluuthra was created by some of the oldest Moon Elf noble clans of Myth Drannor in respone to Eltargrim's (a Sun Elf) opening of the city to other races. From Tintageer we have no true idea of what happened, we only have scrapes of knowledge about it. As for Jhaamdath it was made in defense (and the humans deserved it)
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:09 PM	Eldreth Veluuthra was created by some of the oldest Moon Elf noble clans of Myth Drannor in respone to Eltargrim's (a Sun Elf) opening of the city to other races. -The five Houses that founded the Eldreth Veluuthra- though they don't admit to it, of course- are the: Bharaclaiev Hyshaanth Rhaevaern Starym Tellynnan As for Jhaamdath it was made in defense (and the humans deserved it) -Agreed. :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 03:26 PM	I knew the reference, but I've never actually read them. Wasn't until recently that I've ever seen all three books in one place, and by then I kinda got turned off the idea of them by hanging around here. :D Hey it’s all Realms lore even if it isn’t the best writing ever. Plus it gives you considerable insight into the personalities behind 3 of the Realms current Gods. Also a lot of other characters make appearances in those Novels. Not to mention the squeals are a lot more interesting then the first trilogy. Prince of Lies in particular! You should pick them up and give them a read. If nothing else just to sit them on top of the toilet and read when you’re on the can!
GothicDan 02-26-07, 04:34 PM	Ummmm, Gold Elves are in charge, maybe you should rethink that. The Sundering, Vyshantii Empire, the Dark Disaster, Eldreth Veluuthra All Tel'Quessir participated in the Sundering. The Aryvandaar Empire was perfectly normal before the Vyshaanti took throne. There are no records of particularly unsavory violence, aggressions, or extraplanar dealings on their part before that. And we have from Elaine's words on Candlekeep that by far and large it was the Vyshaanti themselves that were corrupt; the vast majority of Aryvandaari Ar-Tel'Quessir were not. The Dark Disaster is "interesting" in that it was only pinned on the Vyshaanti Archmages in 3E. Before that, it was a mystery. And as others have pointed out, the EV was hardly sun-elf only...
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 05:36 PM	The Dark Disaster is "interesting" in that it was only pinned on the Vyshaanti Archmages in 3E. Before that, it was a mystery. -Just another example of 3e dabbing out all of those blots over history that we all liked. Aravae, Ioulaum, this...When will the madness end?
Stigger 02-26-07, 08:54 PM	Well... finished Blackstaff. I can fully admit I was wrong. The ending was completely appropriate and well in line with his character, and very logical given the magnitude of it... still didn't like the conclusion, but I can understand and agree with it within it's own context. Though the book left the helf in charge, not the gold elves. And it seemed to me that the properties of the city's 'mythal' (or whatever it could properly be called) weren't going to allow the sorts of people in (or to even find the place) who would even think of pulling off the Vyshaan like stuff. Made sense really that Khelben went to Arvandor though, considering just how tirelessly he worked on the elves behalf, despite their treatment of him. It made me really question that LN alignment for him though... too much selflessness and caring for others over himself to not be good aligned from what I could tell.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 09:02 PM	It made me really question that LN alignment for him though... too much selflessness and caring for others over himself to not be good aligned from what I could tell. -Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies, then. -He is surely Lawful. Is he Good? Sometimes...
MerrikCale 02-26-07, 09:05 PM	-Just another example of 3e dabbing out all of those blots over history that we all liked. Aravae, Ioulaum, this...When will the madness end? I didn't like Ioulaum. Why should I?
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 09:09 PM	-I didn't like it, either.
Stigger 02-26-07, 09:21 PM	Seemed a very inconsistent end with all of his other past achievements and contributions to his own society. Yet another thing I tend to toss out of my games... just didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 10:49 PM	-If I DMed in the Realms, I would do the same thing.
ZolDarklock 02-27-07, 12:01 AM	considering his past dealings with the Red Sashes I would hardly call Khel lawful, I assume any leader who goes behind his lords back "the paladinson" and has people illegally disappear when they beat the justice system is hardly lawful, actually that doesn't even make them good, in my opionion it makes them a judge, jury, and executioner... something more a CE being would try to justify as the end justifies the means mentality Khel may have done many good deeds, but he also set himself above everyone else, and decided he new better than the justice system itself, and used illegal means to carry out his personal justice system, regardless of anyone's rights
MarkusTay63 02-27-07, 01:19 AM	He pretty much followed his own agenda, including his own sense of justice. Like what he did with Priamon "Frostrune"; it was definately Khelben-style justice. I'd say he was LN tending toward true neutral, with 'good' tendencies. He was more about keeping everything in balance. He served the goddess of magic, yet did more then his fare share of obscurring knowledge. He was a lord of Waterdeep, yet oft times worked at odds to that city. He was a Harper, and yet made a deal with the Zhents. Definately heavy on the 'neutral there, with leanings toward both good and lawful. EDIT: A thought just occurred to me! FR is BROKEN! :eek: Elven sub-races inter-marry and inter-mix all the time right? There are plenty of half Gold/Half-Moon Elves running around, and I'm sure there are plaenty of half-wild/half-wood Elves. Now, if Miyeritar was a realm made up of Dark Elves and Green Elves, I'm sure there must have been a few of mixed blood. So what happened to them? Did the descent only effect full-bloods, or were the halfs cursed as well? There could very well have been a small group that fled after the full-bloods were cursed. After thousands of years and through selective breeding, there could be a hidden group of dark Elves somewhere, that have like 90% Dark Elf blood, but not pure, just so they won't turn. Good... goood... :plotting:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 01:23 AM	I didn't like Ioulaum. Why should I? Hey I’m still trying to find a way to put Ioulaum back in a normal body. He isn’t extremely useful moldering away in the underdark. I just cant believe an arcanist of his caliber would resign himself to such an existence. It has to be some kind of mistake. He must have been trying to jack some psionic powers and got stuck! I liked it better when I thought he was just a Lich hiding out. Darn 3rd edition!
MarkusTay63 02-27-07, 01:34 AM	Actualy, I'm kind of bored with the whole ancient Netherese Lich thing, it's been done to death. I kind of like the fact that he at least tried something different. Personally, I think he's shooting for godhood by combining massive psionic ability with arch-magic. He might even be planning on tearing the Weave away from Mystra with that big ol' brain of his. Having a couple thousand years to figure out where Karsus went wrong, I'm sure he could pull it off somehow. :devil:
Stigger 02-27-07, 01:55 AM	Well, as I understand the way elves breed, if the parents are from two different sub-races, the child will be one or the other sub-race, not a blending of the two.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 03:07 AM	I'm pretty sure Stigger is right! You can be a half Elf of all the different sub types but not a full Elf that is half Moon and half Gold Elf. Or any other silly combinations we could come up with. Elves don’t have mutts.
MarkusTay63 02-27-07, 03:29 AM	Thanks for ruining all my evil fun. :( I think I can still pull a few pre-descent Illythirii Baelnorn from up my sleave, but I don't think they'll be doing a lot of breeding. :thinks:
Stigger 02-27-07, 03:31 AM	Yeah, undeath does tend to put a rather nasty crimp on the whole biological function thing... and you're welcome by the way. :P
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 09:25 AM	...I would hardly call Khel lawful, I assume any leader who goes behind his lords back "the paladinson" and has people illegally disappear when they beat the justice system is hardly lawful... -He was following his own sense of justice, though. And, he always stuck to that. That's where the lawfulness comes from. He would be neutral, because, as you said, he has had his share of "shady" deals and such. But, since the majority of them are to benefit the majority, it can be said that he has good tendencies. So what happened to them? Did the descent only effect full-bloods, or were the halfs cursed as well? -They became Centaurs. ;)
MarkusTay63 02-27-07, 09:40 AM	-They became Centaurs. ;)Nice. :ahem: Actually, Sage was kind enough to provide that Shend Quote, so the Centaurs are one of the few things I do now understand. But where'd the Heck did the gnomes come from? I'm 90% certain that Ed didn't even use gnomes, thats why they are NEVER mentioned in any of the histories. And Dwarves didn't have magic back in the days of Miyeritar, stop with all the retro-active cr@p already. Its like George Lucas 'pasting-in' that Abysmal Anakin from the final movie into the ending of Return of the Jedi. Stop changing canon, all it does is make people uncomfortable, like hives.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 10:28 AM	But where'd the Heck did the gnomes come from? I'm 90% certain that Ed didn't even use gnomes, thats why they are NEVER mentioned in any of the histories. -Gnomes are like sand. They get everywhere, and it's hard to get all of them out once they settle in a particular area. Its like George Lucas 'pasting-in' that Abysmal Anakin from the final movie into the ending of Return of the Jedi. Stop changing canon, all it does is make people uncomfortable, like hives. -How much do you think that sucked for the actor (I forget his name) who was replaced? His claim to fame- gone. When his grandchildren ask if he was Darth Vader, he can say yes, but for future generations, there will be no proof.
GothicDan 02-27-07, 04:55 PM	Of course, there's the fact that in Ed's Realms, 'genetically,' all Elves breed true. Either one race or the other. No half-and-half.
ZolDarklock 02-27-07, 11:23 PM	Princess Tianna Skyflower the half drow/elf says otherwise
GothicDan 02-27-07, 11:33 PM	Who's that? EDIT: Nevermind. She's in the North. And statted as a half-elf, not a drow/elf crossbreed.
Dark Wizard 02-27-07, 11:36 PM	She's mentioned in The North boxed set. However, I don't recall that source stating she was half elf/drow. Is there another source that says so?
herceg 02-28-07, 02:24 PM	As a side-note: I don't know if it's canon, but in Demon Stone there's a half-drow/half-wood elf rogue girl (Zhai).
Alediran 02-28-07, 02:29 PM	As a side-note: I don't know if it's canon, but in Demon Stone there's a half-drow/half-wood elf rogue girl (Zhai). By canon she is a full drow. Just because she doesn't know how elves breed among subraces it doesn't mean that she is what she belives.
herceg 02-28-07, 02:34 PM	A shame, shame, shame... :noway:
Dark Wizard 03-02-07, 12:23 AM	You are still a half drow/elf, and can refer to your character as such, just that mechanically, you either use elf stats or drow stats.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-02-07, 12:31 AM	You are still a half drow/elf, and can refer to your character as such, just that mechanically, you either use elf stats or drow stats. you can call yourself that but people might look at you funny!
Dark Wizard 03-02-07, 12:35 AM	you can call yourself that but people might look at you funny! :confused:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-02-07, 12:37 AM	They breed true! So anyone claiming to be half would be stared at ad looked up and down. Look like a normal elf to me buddy!
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:38 AM	-Calling your character 'As Such', I guess. That's all I can extrapolate from it, anyway.
Dark Wizard 03-02-07, 12:44 AM	The breeding true things really only affects your character stats. The character still has one elf parent and one drow parent, thus heritage derived from both. I don't recall where I've read it, but you can mix and match the physical appearance traits as much as you like, just rules wise, you're one or the other. So you can look like a half elf/drow, but on your character sheet aside from writing down elf/drow under race, your stats are either drow or elf. That's what I meant.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-02-07, 12:44 AM	Well let’s see my mother was a wild elf twice removed. Then my grandfather he is something of a Black sheep. Drow if you know what I mean. Oh and on my fathers side I have a whole bunch of moon elf’s and one Gold elf. Oh and that one albino great aunt…… Oh who cares!
Dark Wizard 03-02-07, 12:58 AM	It's a pretty important point to make, which the designers fortunately did early on. Otherwise you will have drow/elves "with all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses." You get Blade Elves. :rimshot: But seriously, this indirectly leads to potential confusion and possibly abuse.
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 01:03 AM	But seriously, this indirectly leads to potential confusion and possibly abuse. -Especially if the child is living with the Drow parent, assuming that said Drow parent as a "faithful" Lolthite.
Dark Wizard 03-02-07, 01:06 AM	In that case it's absolutely abuse. On a side note, Blade Elves has a nice ring to it, dangerously so ... like they say, you can never have enough elven subraces....
BrennonGoldeye 03-02-07, 07:14 AM	In that case it's absolutely abuse. On a side note, Blade Elves has a nice ring to it, dangerously so ... like they say, you can never have enough elven subraces.... My favorite are the Keebler Elves. Mmmmm....:cookie:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-02-07, 03:59 PM	In that case it's absolutely abuse. On a side note, Blade Elves has a nice ring to it, dangerously so ... like they say, you can never have enough elven subraces.... If you use them you should make them extremely rare. Also you would need a reason why they are so tough. You could make them a desert dwelling sub race. That would be pretty cool. Kinda like Dark Sun except with a forgotten Realms twist!
BrennonGoldeye 03-02-07, 09:06 PM	If you use them you should make them extremely rare. Also you would need a reason why they are so tough. You could make them a desert dwelling sub race. That would be pretty cool. Kinda like Dark Sun except with a forgotten Realms twist! Reply With Quote Next on Fox....
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 09:45 PM	How about the keebler Elves? They were stated in an old issue of Dragon way back when....
BrennonGoldeye 03-02-07, 09:50 PM	How about the keebler? They were stated in an old issue of Dragon way back when.... Could stage a Hero's Feast like nobody else....
ZolDarklock 03-02-07, 11:28 PM	hmmm did they ever do away with the drow noble abilities, they were after all a superior breed
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 11:29 PM	hmmm did they ever do away with the drow noble abilities, they were after all a superior breed -That's a feat now- Highborn Drow.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-03-07, 01:49 AM	Could stage a Hero's Feast like nobody else.... Yummy Keebler Elves! Tastes like chicken! Too many tendons! Yuk!
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 03-03-07, 05:28 PM	Speaking of drow, I can't wait until the Drow of the Underdark book comes out. I have the 2nd edition one and I loved it. I hope they make this one kick ass.
Stigger 03-03-07, 06:47 PM	Not hopeful on that since it's core, and not Realms specific like the last, but who knows, they may just surprise us.
BrennonGoldeye 03-03-07, 08:35 PM	Speaking of drow, I can't wait until the Drow of the Underdark book comes out. I have the 2nd edition one and I loved it. I hope they make this one kick ass. Oh my. I wholeheartedly agree. :D
ZolDarklock 03-03-07, 11:09 PM	so being a drow noble and having there abilities is a feat now, not a birthright...hahahahaha only in the relams ;-)
Lord Karsus 03-03-07, 11:46 PM	so being a drow noble and having there abilities is a feat now, not a birthright...hahahahaha only in the relams ;-) -I think it's a pretty good idea, actually. Sure, you need to use a Feat slot, but I know that if I were a DM, and I had the characters background already discussed and set, I'd give the character the feat for free, when starting out. It's one of those 1st-level feats, I believe.