| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Charles Phipps02-05-08, 02:33 PM | I'm going to be incorporating her into a new story and I was curious if anyone had their takes on the NWN-1 character and how to progress her story for a tabletop game. It'd start from NWN-1 and proceed up to and including her betrayal but everything after that is optional for suggestions on how to proceed. |
| The Ubbergeek02-05-08, 03:43 PM | Ah yes, Aribeth... Must be the lone one who liked the plot of NWN. Perhaps it was not Oscar material, perhaps it raised questions, it at least was dramatic to me. Now... The thing is that the key plot around, the big plot, was essantial to the fall and all that of course. If the Plague is not, you must bring a new reason for her to be tempted.... And think Fenthic or another poor soul that she like. In love or friendship or familial link.... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 03:45 PM | I firmly consider Aribeth an elf, even if her NWN stats in the engine said "half-elf". NPC stats can be screwy and nonsensical in those games. |
| Charles Phipps02-05-08, 03:50 PM | Yes, I'm sticking more or less with the basic plotline of Neverwinter Nights for her introduction. The PCs get invited to Neverwinter, she's engaged to an affiable Fenthick Moss and then pretty much her life goes to Hell when the mob sanctionedly hangs Fenthick while the PCs are gone. At that point, she becomes a Blackguard. I'm thinking of what gods and what sort of dark encounter she might have to warrant such a change since the game gives no hints. |
| The Ubbergeek02-05-08, 04:31 PM | There was some work around due to issues in the game engine, I think... she is definitly an elf. The logic answer may be... Shar. She is the goddess of loss, after all. The emptyness, the dark, tempting void... Orrrrr. Hoar may have an hand into it? Vengeance, the tainting blood of it? As for the agent... there was in her sleep, increasing dark nightmares.. dreams... Maybe a 'proxy' of sort as the seductor/corruptor. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 04:43 PM | Heya, As Rin said, Aribeth was definitely an elf. The stats in the game engine are wrong, and the developers themselves said that Aribeth was supposed to be an elf, not a half elf. Aribeth's fall was precipitated by three things... 1) Fenthick's betrayal due to naivete. He didn't help Dester out of malice, he truely thought that Desther was on the straight and narrow. My slightly (:P) slashy/shippy mind registered some subtext between Fenthick and Desther, which may or may not have been more than a product of my warped imagination. 2) Nasher's completely unjust treatment of Fenthick. Fenthick did not deserve death for his part in Desther's plot. It was way too harsh, and there were probably better ways to handle it than execution. 3) Morag's persistent magical effort to drive Aribeth into madness, or at least into a state where she was far more malleable. She used Aribeth's pain and guilt against her, as well as her natural outrage at Fenthick's unjust execution (which I am sure she came to perceive as a murder), and also appealed to her vengeful nature (this is the woman who hunted down and killed the Orcs who annihilated her village, before being saved by Tyr). In the end, the efforts of Morag (an epic level caster) wore her down. In the long run, it was the equivalent to putting a Helm of Opposite Alignment on Aribeth, after all, while a paladin has good Will saves, rolling against the same high DC enough times they will inevitably fail. (And her Will save failure was a plot generated failure, not a dice generated failure anyway.) If you're interested, Charles, I have a set of stats I wrote up for her a while ago. I have posted them in the past, and they're a touch controversial. ;) Edit: I'm pretty sure you know I don't think she was ever a Blackguard. If she was going to become one, then Morag would have had to engineer an encounter with a devil or demon, but I don't think Aribeth would have gone that far... It would have happened in Luskan, and the demon or devil (devil because of Aribeth's lawful alignment, I think, I don't think she would have fallen to an alignment other than LE, given that she was able to organize an army of wildly disparate parts to all but annihilate Neverwinter. The only reason Neverwinter didn't fall was because of the actions of <CHARNAME>.) probably would have been summoned by Maugrim. As far as deities go, I don't think Aribeth would have declared one in the course of the game. I honestly believe that the developer's intention was that Morag would have been the one granting her her new and darker powers, but going by the Realms, it is possible that one of the evil deities were doing this without direct worship from Aribeth (this has been known to have happened the past, motivated by the desire to pick her up as a true worshiper). IMHO the most likely culprits for this would have been (in order) Shar, Loviatar, and Bane. |
| Charles Phipps02-05-08, 04:50 PM | Sure, share aware. I'm very interested in anything you have to offer. |
| The Ubbergeek02-05-08, 04:53 PM | Do want. :D |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 04:58 PM | Heya, Sure, share aware. I'm very interested in anything you have to offer. Please note, these stats are 3.0. I probably should revisit them and rework them to 3.5... When I do that, I'll post them again. :) But for now... Aribeth de Tylmarande Assumptions: That the numerical stats (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) given in Chapter 4 most accurately reflect Aribeth. This is to save me a few hassles trying to work out what the actual numbers are. The stats are actually quite reasonable for an Epic level character. I have included her stats as she stands at the end of the game after she surrenders, hence she has no Paladin abilities and no cleric spells (given that Morag is dead and Aribeth has not returned to the worship of Tyr). If you wish her stats as a full blown paladin/cleric, let me know and I'll post them as well. Female elf Rng2/ex-Pal10/Clr12: CR 24; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 2d10+2, 10d10+10, 12d8+12; hp 240; Init +7; Spd 30ft.; AC 14 (touch 14, flat-footed 10); Atk +26/+21/+16/+11 melee (currently with no weapon) or +24/+19/+14/+9 (currently with no weapon) ranged or +24/+19/+14/+9 ranged touch (by spell); SQ Favored Enemy (+1 Orcs), Elven traits, low-light vision; AL LN(E); SV Fort +20, Ref +11, Will +15; Str 22, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 19. Height 5 ft. 2 in. Skills and Feats: Concentration +14, Diplomacy +14, Handle Animal +5, Heal +9, Hide +5, Knowledge (Arcarna) +1, Knowledge (Nature) +5, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Listen +6, Move Silently +9, Ride +5, Search +2, Scry +1, Spellcraft +7, Spot +6, Wilderness Lore +9. Improved Initative, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical (longsword), Skill Focus (Concentration), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Extra Turning, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Special Qualities: Elven Traits: Immune to sleep spells and effects, +2 on saves against enchantments effects, +2 bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Cleric Spells per Day: None currently. Caster Level 12th. Signature Posessions: None actually on her, but Full Plate +3, Aribeth's Sword (in storage). Notes: General Notes: Aribeth had far too many feats than she had feat slots, so I have just made assumptions on her feat progression. Also some feats she would have taken in PnP DnD are not available in NWN, so I also made assumptions there too (like Improved Initiative). Why Ranger? Aribeth's father was a hunter, and when she was young she wanted nothing more than to follow in her father's footsteps. Then the Orcs came and took all that away from her. So she ran off into the wilderness and hunted Orcs. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that she was a Ranger (with Orcs as her Favored Enemy) for a couple of levels, at least until Tyr rescued her. Why no levels in Blackguard? An interesting question with a simple answer. Aribeth doesn't qualify for the prestige class. The requirements that need to be met before becoming a Blackguard are a) be evil (Aribeth wasn't evil before she joined Morag), b) have 5 Ranks in Hide and the feats Cleave and Sunder, and c) make peaceful contact with an evil outsider (Morag isn't an outsider, and there is no evidence that Aribeth made personal contact with any of Morag's outsider minions before she swore her oath to serve Morag.)... There is also the small issue of deities in the Realms. While in standard 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons it is possible to be a cleric, ranger, druid, paladin or blackguard that serves the principles of his/her alignment rather than any deity, this is not possible in the Forgotten Realms. There is a requirement that any divine spellcaster MUST serve a deity. Morag is not a deity (no matter how much she might wish she was one). I should also add, that I didn't give Aribeth enough ranks in Hide to qualify for Blackguard either, nor did I give her the Sunder feat. This was not because I wanted to disqualify her from the prestige class, but because it wasn't very logical to give her these things. She might have stalked Orcs, but that is more Move Silently than Hide - for instance. As for the Sunder feat - well I was limited by the number of feats she could have at her level. Not that I would have given it to her anyway (it's just not the sort of feat I would associate with her). Why Epic? Aribeth is able to do a number of things in the earlier stages of the game that indicate to me that she is of sufficent level to cast the Heal spell, this means she needs to be at least an 11th level Cleric. I placed her at 12th level because that gives her the ability to cast Heal twice per day. In order to do this, and still keep her a powerful melee fighter, I had little choice but to break the level 20 limit. How come Aribeth is weaker than she is in the game? I had to made a decision where to reasonably draw the line. Given that Elminster, the most favoured of all of Mystra's chosen, is only level 35, it is reasonable to assume that Aribeth was not as powerful. I might add, that Alustriel Silverhand, High Lady of the Silvermarches (and also a Chosen of Mystra) is only level 24 (CR 28 because of the Chosen template). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 05:31 PM | Actually, my question was why LN(E)? I would have made her a flat LE, whether she was a blackguard or not. I have my own interpretations on how certain characters in this tale acted, but in all truth I'm reluctant to share them, because I don't want to get sucked into a debate about it (I've been in debates about the subject before, and one day I unofficially declared to myself that I wouldn't participate in them again, mainly because I find them annoying and draining). I actually kind of like Aribeth (not a major fan, but I like her), but I still don't like it when people interpret her actions in a way that makes her out to be 100% innocent. If a character is protected from having made mistakes, then I generally won't find their tale to be very compelling (or tragic, which the NWN :OC is supposed to be). I'm NOT a fan of the NWN: OC, by the way--I thought both expansions improved on it. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 05:31 PM | Heya, And here's the best quick and dirty convert to 3.5 I could do, using HeroForge 5.0.8 (Yeah, I think I changed some of her skills... and maybe feats too) Aribeth: Female Elf(Wood) Rgr2/ex-Pal10/Clr12 Medium Humnoid (Elf) HD 10d8+10d10+20 (135 hp) Init +8; Spd 30ft/x4 AC 14 (+4 dex), touch 14, flatfooted 10 Base Atk/Grapple +20/+26 Full Atk +27/+22/+17/+12 One-handed (1d8+6, 17-20/x2, Longsword) +26/+21/+16/+11 One-handed (1d10+6, 19-20/x2, Bastard Sword) SA&SQ Aura of Good(Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Restricted Spells, Rebuke Undead (Su), Wild Empathy(Ex), Favoured Enemy (Humanoid (orc)) (+2 bonus) AL LN(E); SV Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +15 Str 22(+6), Dex 19 (+4), Con 12 (+1), Int 10 (+0), Wis 19 (+4), Cha 19 (+4) Skills: Concentration +31, Diplomacy +12, Heal +12, Hide +9, Knowledge (Religion) +7, Move Silently +9, Search +4, Spellcraft +7, Spot +9, Survival +9 Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficency (Sword, Bastard), Extra Turning, Improved Critical (Longsword), Improved Initiative, Rapid Shot, Power Attack, Cleave, Skill Focus (Concentration; Spellcraft), Track, Weapon Focus (Longsword) |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 05:32 PM | Heya, Actually, my question was why LN(E)? I would have made her a flat LE, whether she was a blackguard or not. Because the stats are presented as she was at the end of the game, after <CHARNAME> had successfully talked her down. Before that point, she would definitely be LE. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 05:37 PM | Heya, Because the stats are presented as she was at the end of the game, after <CHARNAME> had successfully talked her down. Before that point, she would definitely be LE. All right, understood. Although, I will say that it's possible in the game for the PC to fail to "talk her out of it". I assume we're going with a "happier" ending, here? |
| Charles Phipps02-05-08, 05:45 PM | Thanks for showing up, S_SH. I very much welcome your presence in all of these boards and hope you'll continue in our other thread and PM (though we were close to talking in circles in Tyr's place and could understand if you wanted to back out). My existent thoughts... 1. Very nice write-up. You did an excellent summation of her skills and it will be very helpful in my game. 2. I'm not sure about Ranger since I really took Aribeth to be a child or a commoner really rather than than someone who honestly was skilled at that portion of her life. I took the intercession by Tyr to be something that happened to a young girl who decided to spend the rest of her life in the service of the deity. 3. Actually, I'm surprised about her being a full Elf. Half-Elf seemed much more realistic to me because it avoids all the cultural complications of the Realms where a member of the race abandons the Seldarine for a human deity. 4. 24th Level is entirely appropriate but my games tend to measure a bit differently than pure game mechanics. Gwydion is 20th level in Prince of Lies but I pretty much view him as the greatest Paladin the world has ever known. A 24th Level Aribeth would be a legendary hero known Realms Wide as probably the greatest warrior that ever swung a sword. Pretty much the "Elminster of the Blade." Especially since Ed Greenwood puts Drizzt as about 8th or so best Swordsmen in the Realms. It goes back to the old joke I suppose. "Why the Hell did these guys need heroes again?" Of course, a real issue is that I never quite understood why they needed heroes even when I thought of her as lower level. 5. I'm going to debate the story point of her being a Fallen Paladin and an outright Blackguard. Both have their merits, though Blackguard decidedly "seals the deal" that she's become a servant of evil Darth Vader style. In this respect, in our D&D game we can create a Demon or Devil to be her patron or give her a goddess. Shar has already been recommended and probably the most appropriate, though there's also Bane and we could certainly ascend Morag to Demigoddess status. 6. As for "talking her out of it", the storyline will go right up to the Point of her Betrayal and the PCs confronting her. Then I can PLAN for her redemption or not. However, it'll be up to the PCs to handle it. I welcome ideas for what you think should occur if they do manage to "Talk her down" and take her back to the decidedly forgiving (*sarcasm*) people of Neverwinter. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 05:47 PM | Heya, All right, understood. Although, I will say that it's possible in the game for the PC to fail to "talk her out of it". I assume we're going with a "happier" ending, here? If we don't go for the happy ending, keeping the alignment LE is as simple as making a few marks with a pencil. :) (If you notice in my 3.5 revision, she has Rebuke Undead... In both cases she's an ex-paladin, so the change isn't that drastic.) I guess it's up to Charles which ending he goes for... |
| Charles Phipps02-05-08, 05:53 PM | Heya, If we don't go for the happy ending, keeping the alignment LE is as simple as making a few marks with a pencil. :) (If you notice in my 3.5 revision, she has Rebuke Undead... In both cases she's an ex-paladin, so the change isn't that drastic.) I guess it's up to Charles which ending he goes for... Well, in my ideal scenario, the PCs will do the Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker thing. Certainly, I also intend to play with the idea that there's a strong physical attraction between at least one of PCs that is mostly being ignored by Aribeth while she's engaged to another man (or women were any of my PCs so inclined). And I consider the what happens next when she throws down her sword and casts away the Dark Side to be a perfectly valid topic. Not only for the immediate aftermath in Neverwinter but also how to make it an ongoing part of the campaign. This may be a rather deep conversation for a video game NPC but I believe the epicness of the story deserves it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 05:59 PM | 3. Actually, I'm surprised about her being a full Elf. Half-Elf seemed much more realistic to me because it avoids all the cultural complications of the Realms where a member of the race abandons the Seldarine for a human deity. Well, it's not like it's impossible for a non-human to be devoted to a human god. Although, the NWN: OC doesn't necessarily get religion in the Realms "right" anyway. It makes Tyr look like he's the only deity anyone bothers to worship (and remember how the people of the Uthgardt are referred to as "pagans"--that was pretty strange in a polytheistic setting). Then I can PLAN for her redemption or not. However, it'll be up to the PCs to handle it. I welcome ideas for what you think should occur if they do manage to "Talk her down" and take her back to the decidedly forgiving (*sarcasm*) people of Neverwinter. See, that in itself is an attitude that I don't find fair. The innocent people who lost loved ones thanks to Aribeth's "dark army" would be right to be upset. Imagine if you were in their place. I think my point--if you want my advice--is NOT to make Aribeth out to be 100% an innocent victim. If Aribeth truly was a virtuous paladin (and goes back to having that attitude) I don't think even she would see herself as blameless. As I said before, the story is less compelling is Aribeth is protected the whole time from making any mistakes. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 06:00 PM | Thanks for showing up, S_SH. I very much welcome your presence in all of these boards and hope you'll continue in our other thread and PM What about me? :-/ |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 06:02 PM | Heya, Thanks for showing up, S_SH. I very much welcome your presence in all of these boards and hope you'll continue in our other thread and PM (though we were close to talking in circles in Tyr's place and could understand if you wanted to back out). I should get to it this morning. :) That is, if I stop getting myself distracted. ;) 2. I'm not sure about Ranger since I really took Aribeth to be a child or a commoner really rather than than someone who honestly was skilled at that portion of her life. I took the intercession by Tyr to be something that happened to a young girl who decided to spend the rest of her life in the service of the deity. She was hunting down orcs and being rather successful at it until she got caught in a blizzard... which is something a young ranger might do, especially if she was so intent of chasing down orcs. I don't think a commoner would be able to achieve such a feat. Just remove the Ranger levels if you don't like 'em. 3. Actually, I'm surprised about her being a full Elf. Half-Elf seemed much more realistic to me because it avoids all the cultural complications of the Realms where a member of the race abandons the Seldarine for a human deity. Well it wasn't just Aribeth, but Fenthick too. I think it's not unknown for elves to worship non-Seldarine deities. Fenthick is harder to explain than Aribeth - at least Aribeth has a direct manifestation of an avatar of Tyr, who saved her life, in her background. I think that's reason enough for her. ;) 4. 24th Level is entirely appropriate but my games tend to measure a bit differently than pure game mechanics. Gwydion is 20th level in Prince of Lies but I pretty much view him as the greatest Paladin the world has ever known. A 24th Level Aribeth would be a legendary hero known Realms Wide as probably the greatest warrior that ever swung a sword. Pretty much the "Elminster of the Blade." Especially since Ed Greenwood puts Drizzt as about 8th or so best Swordsmen in the Realms. It goes back to the old joke I suppose. "Why the Hell did these guys need heroes again?" Of course, a real issue is that I never quite understood why they needed heroes even when I thought of her as lower level. The stats were based on what she was capable of in the game. She can cast Heal, which makes her at least an 11th level Cleric, and she was quite a formidable fighter. Also bear in mind that my presentation of her stats is actually quite a bit lower than her stats in the NWN game engine. 5. I'm going to debate the story point of her being a Fallen Paladin and an outright Blackguard. Both have their merits, though Blackguard decidedly "seals the deal" that she's become a servant of evil Darth Vader style. In this respect, in our D&D game we can create a Demon or Devil to be her patron or give her a goddess. Shar has already been recommended and probably the most appropriate, though there's also Bane and we could certainly ascend Morag to Demigoddess status. Making her an active Blackguard complete with deity means you can pretty much write off her redemption in the short term. It wouldn't be realistic for her to convert to blackguard and then after a month or two of campaigning against Neverwinter, repent. People don't work that way, not unless we're talking literal Helm of Opposite Alignment. I think any god would be hesitant to take her as a faithful after that level of flip flopping. 6. As for "talking her out of it", the storyline will go right up to the Point of her Betrayal and the PCs confronting her. Then I can PLAN for her redemption or not. However, it'll be up to the PCs to handle it. I welcome ideas for what you think should occur if they do manage to "Talk her down" and take her back to the decidedly forgiving (*sarcasm*) people of Neverwinter. If she is talked out of it, realistically, given what happened to Fenthick, I think we can pretty much say that the citizens of Neverwinter would demand her death, and if Lord Nasher didn't do it, they'd take matters into their own hands. Which is not how I see Neverwinter at all. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-05-08, 06:06 PM | Heya, I think my point--if you want my advice--is NOT to make Aribeth out to be 100% an innocent victim. If Aribeth truly was a virtuous paladin (and goes back to having that attitude) I don't think even she would see herself as blameless. As I said before, the story is less compelling is Aribeth is protected the whole time from making any mistakes. I agree. Aribeth might have resisted Morag completely were it not for the fact that she's got a vengeful side, as demonstrated by her one woman campaign against the orcs who destroyed her village. Tyr took her in, basically, to try and temper that vengeance and direct it towards Justice... It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that she might backslide... But I don't think she would backslide so much as to end up a Blackguard on her own, that would require outside intervention (enter Morag)... Even if she did repent and redeem herself, it's highly unlikely she'd ever truly return to being a Paladin. Her own guilt and horror at her actions might even make her suicidal... She's not completely innocent, IMHO, but she's not completely to blame either. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 06:08 PM | If she is talked out of it, realistically, given what happened to Fenthick, I think we can pretty much say that the citizens of Neverwinter would demand her death, and if Lord Nasher didn't do it, they'd take matters into their own hands. Which is not how I see Neverwinter at all. I don't see it that way, either. Neverwinter has always been described as a place of mostly goodly folk who just want to get on with their lives, not demand blood sacrifices. I will point out, though, that: 1) The "bloodthirsty mob" mentioned in the voiceover probably did not consist of every single citizen in the city of Neverwinter. 2) I think it is perfectly valid to suppose that the person telling us the tale through the voiceover was a biased, unreliable narrator. I don't believe that one must slavishly adhere to every word of a narrator as if it were an unvarnished truth. But that's just how I look at things. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 06:11 PM | Heya, I agree. Aribeth might have resisted Morag completely were it not for the fact that she's got a vengeful side, as demonstrated by her one woman campaign against the orcs who destroyed her village. Tyr took her in, basically, to try and temper that vengeance and direct it towards Justice... I agree with that interpretation. I especially like it because it can probably be applied to just about any character (ie. everyone has their flaws, what matters is their actions and how they deal with said flaws).:) |
| Charles Phipps02-05-08, 06:30 PM | Well don’t consider any of this gospel for my game, because I’m throwing it out for discussion. But, in general, I believe the people of Neverwinter in my games are normally one of the nicer people in the Forgotten Realms. However, I also want to draw the distinction that it’s not as nice as Silverymoon which is THE hippie-liberal Peaceland in my Realms. Neverwinter is a pretty lawful and good kingdom but its people are much pretty normal folk. And to be fair, in my games and the video game, they’ve had a pretty :censored: year. The Wailing Death has probably come reasonably close to decimating the populace (in the literal 1 in 10 sense). Worse, they found out that it was one of their own who performed the dastardly deed and actually one of their so-called “heroes” along with the Priests of Helm. An innocent man was killed, either found guilty in a trial by incredibly biased populous or outright lynched in the streets by some people probably very angry and not thinking straight (I’m not sure which is the best case for my game). THEN Aribeth further cements their disillusionment by invading. Really, in any reasonable LG court system. She’s guilty of murder, treason, and any other crimes that come with leading a foreign army of absolute darkness to slaughter you. It requires an act of charity and mercy to forgive her. Because, she’s guilty as sin and ANY court that has a death penalty would give it to her. Part of the idea why I like Shar (and by proxy---her being a Blackguard) is that I like the idea that she has her conscience, pain at losing her lover, and feeling “turned off”and thus only the PCs love is able to get her to renounce Shar and thus regain the horrible truth of what’s she become. Just a thought. |
| Kenzuki02-05-08, 07:43 PM | My Fighter/Assassin merely killed Aribeth. Because at this point in the game I had gotten sick and tired of hearing her stupid whining about how her god abandoned her and whatnot. She was a threat, and evil or not, I wasn't about to let her stand in my way! I did try to persuade her but she freaked out and attacked me. So I had to put her down like the rabid dog she had become. |
| Lykor02-05-08, 10:45 PM | Have you played Hordes of the Underdark? It's a pretty good expansion, much better than Shadows of Undrentide. The ending leaves a bit of doubt as to canonicity though. It also takes you to high-epics --I think my main character was 27 or so. Yes - I beat NwN and the expansion with a fighter 16 / rogue 11. Here's a brief synposis: You find Aribeth frozen in a block of ice in one of the 9 Hells (Avernus, I think, been a while). She was hanged for treason after her failed invasion and generally disliked. You revive her and she journies along with you. She ends up as a Paladin X/ Blackguard 6, but I believe that those numbers can change depending on your alignment. You can even bring her back with you and live happily ever after! Of course, that is after Mephistophales invades and slaughters half the town before you kill him. Probably not canon, but it works for 4e! |
| Storm_Silverhand02-06-08, 02:17 AM | Heya, Have you played Hordes of the Underdark? It's a pretty good expansion, much better than Shadows of Undrentide. The ending leaves a bit of doubt as to canonicity though. It also takes you to high-epics --I think my main character was 27 or so. Yes - I beat NwN and the expansion with a fighter 16 / rogue 11. Here's a brief synposis: You find Aribeth frozen in a block of ice in one of the 9 Hells (Avernus, I think, been a while). She was hanged for treason after her failed invasion and generally disliked. You revive her and she journies along with you. She ends up as a Paladin X/ Blackguard 6, but I believe that those numbers can change depending on your alignment. You can even bring her back with you and live happily ever after! Of course, that is after Mephistophales invades and slaughters half the town before you kill him. Probably not canon, but it works for 4e! Yep played it. I've even talked about it recently in another thread. I'm not sure it's necessary to spoiler protect stuff from NWN HotU, it has been out for a long time now... It's never actually mentioned in the game just how she was killed... If my <CHARNAME> (Mara Aseph) from the NWN OC had anything to do with it, Aribeth would never have died in the first place. As far as the game goes, you find her in Cania frozen in a block of ice - but she's essentially a ghost, even when you free her from that. You can influence her either way, towards good or evil, in the course of your journeys, and you can even romance her (she is one of the two romances available for male characters, the other being the Nathyrra)... But, IIRC, you can't bring her to life, even if you get the happy ending with the romance, she's still a ghost. (I believe that if you play things right, the male <CHARNAME> can get an ending that kind of implies that he's in a relationship with both Aribeth and Nathyrra.) |
| Charles Phipps02-06-08, 06:22 AM | Well we knew game designers were perverts. EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR PERVERTED FEMALE GAMERS! I say this as a male! ;-) |
| Kenzuki02-06-08, 11:07 AM | Yeah when I found Aribeth in Hell my character was like "Wait...I thought I had killed her?" I killed her again when she turned on me during the fight with Mephistophales. Yeah I'm evil, sue me.:P |
| Charles Phipps02-06-08, 11:16 AM | Yes, well, Kenzuki that's not terribly helpful here but I appreciate the fact sharing. ;-) |
| Kenzuki02-06-08, 02:34 PM | Was just sharing my character's take on her is all. He was an evil guy who despite not being good himself didn't want the world to end. So he rose up and kicked scaley arse. |
| Meldread02-06-08, 04:12 PM | For a possible deity I would go with Hoar. It brings into play a lot of interesting concepts. For one, just what is justice? She was a Paladin of Tyr, the god of justice, and yet she 'fell' as a Paladin primarily because she perceived there to be a lack of justice for Fenthick. Her siding with the enemy had little to do with believing in their cause, and everything to do about vengeance against Neverwinter. She wanted to punish the people - the mob - who turned on Fenthick. She wanted to punish Nasher for giving into the mob. In her own mind she was trying to correct a perceived injustice. Yet, even in Hoar's own faith there is controversy dealing with how far is too far to go in the pursuit of justice. Take a look at his dogma, but even then he has many LE followers who have crossed the line - motivated by vengeance and hatred. There are so many wonderful little plot ties you could do with Hoar in this type of situation - it is a situation in which he becomes truly relevant, because Aribeth's grievances were justified. |
| Charles Phipps02-06-08, 04:49 PM | Ultimately, my discussions over Tyr and Hoar have soured me almost permanently against the character. Also, Kelemvor is the God of Retribution in my campaigns. Fundamentally, this is meant to be a conflict between good and evil so that introducing an ambigious deity like Hoar doesn't sit right with me. Especially since the Creator Race is clearly going to destroy the whole of Faerun. Fundamentally, knowing my players, they'd hunt down and murder every single worshiper of Hoar in the Realms in revenge if he was used....and one of them is a follower of him! |
| Storm_Silverhand02-06-08, 05:03 PM | Heya, Hoar would be an interesting deity for her, except that he's little known, and probably unknown in the North (I think? Isn't he more a deity of the Eastern Realms? You know, Thay, Mulhorand, and places around there?). So Aribeth would only hear of him if he manifested to her directly. (Something that's all too easily forgotten when playing in the Realms is that many of the minor deities are more regional than anything else - for instance, Siamorphe is really only known in Tethyr and Waterdeep.) Another thing I think is all too easily forgotten is that Aribeth isn't completely responsible for her actions. Morag uses powerful magic to influence Aribeth - think of it as a super Suggestion spell if you can't think of it as a Helm of Opposite Alignment... Even the most powerful of paladins would eventually fail a save vs such a spell (cast by an Epic level caster), especially if the spell is tried on them daily - as I believe it was in Aribeth's case. This is why the idea of her actually switching deities doesn't sit well with me, I honestly think that Morag would not have wanted her to swear allegiance to a new deity because she wanted Aribeth to serve her directly - another reason why I think Aribeth wouldn't be a blackguard. Where her spells came from after she swore allegiance to Morag, is a mystery. It is possible another deity was trying to get a foot hold, but ultimately Morag wants to defeat/destroy/enslave all humans, and her General following a Human god is kind of counter to that goal (though Shar might like it - so that brings us back to Shar as a possible candidate, since Morag may even have been manipulated by her). |
| Charles Phipps02-06-08, 05:12 PM | That brings the question, really, how one wants to play it. How exactly bad do I want to play Aribeth. Also, what elements in her NWN story worked and what didn't (S_SH has pointed out she doesn't much care for the idea of renouncing Tyr only to take a new deity while I do). For me, I think it's important to not play up Morag's influence too much. Aribeth, though Shar might have nulled her conscience afterwards or Morag made her very antsy beforehand, voluntarilly committed herself to the destruction of Neverwinter. "Her fire burned too hot and consumed her" so to speak. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-06-08, 05:32 PM | Heya, That brings the question, really, how one wants to play it. How exactly bad do I want to play Aribeth. Also, what elements in her NWN story worked and what didn't (S_SH has pointed out she doesn't much care for the idea of renouncing Tyr only to take a new deity while I do). I just think it would have been too soon after her fall, essentially. People just don't change deities like that at a drop of a hat, there's proceedure to be followed (like atoning, doing deeds for the deity) before a new deity would accept them. In the timeline of NWN, there just wasn't time. Besides, Aribeth never ever mentioned another deity, just Morag... And her dedication to Morag's cause seemed on the verge of worship, since it was Morag who was giving her the opportunity to get revenge. For me, I think it's important to not play up Morag's influence too much. Aribeth, though Shar might have nulled her conscience afterwards or Morag made her very antsy beforehand, voluntarilly committed herself to the destruction of Neverwinter. "Her fire burned too hot and consumed her" so to speak. Well, that's your choice... But let me ask you this - if a PC or NPC does something terrible under the influence of a very high level enchantment/charm spell, are they to blame for their actions or the person who cast the spell on them? And what about the person who donned a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and went from LG to CE? Are they to blame for the mass slaughter they go on to commit, or the curse of the Helm? I don't think Aribeth is completely blameless, but Morag's influence definitely needs to be taken into account. |
| Charles Phipps02-06-08, 05:38 PM | Understood, Storm. However, I briefly considered doing away completely with foreign influence. I.e. That the redemption scenario would be more powerful if it was only about her lover's death. That, after he was tried/hung or just hung, Aribeth lead a foreign army onto Neverwinter's doorstep with the intent to slaughter them. and I'll give her Blackguard spells but instead have it Shar masquerading as Morag's own power (I can break the rules any way I want to!) ;-) |
| Kenzuki02-06-08, 05:38 PM | The road to hell is paved with good intentions.:P |
| Meldread02-06-08, 11:01 PM | Storm, you are correct in your assessment of Hoar. I believe most of his followers can be found within the regions of Chessenta, Unther, Altumbel, Aglarond, Thesk and Thay. Likely, the majority of them are in Unther, Chessenta and Altumbel. However, a deity can communicate through dream visions and through his portfolio senses he could 'feel' Aribeth calling out for revenge. In that sense, it is likely that Hoar could have spoken to her in some fashion. Personally, I favor these types of plots. :P That being said... since Charles doesn't want to go that route, I do think Shar is a good second choice. It is likely that Aribeth, in addition to being filled with a sense of vengeance, also became a touch suicidal - caring little for her own life and as she was consumed with bitterness, hatred and profound loss. She'd be the perfect candidate for Shar to toy with and use to her own ends. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-07-08, 01:12 AM | Heya, The main problem I have with Aribeth becoming a Blackguard is that it then makes it difficult to "talk her down". If you're going to have her make the snap decision to embrace Shar, or to embrace Morag as a substitute with Shar granting her spells... I'm getting frustrated here because I can't seem to find the words to get my point across... Let me try again... In the NWN OC, you have one conversation with her that snaps her out of it if you're successful. If she were a Blackguard, I think it would be a lot harder to do than that. (Yeah it was a tricky persuade check, especially if you hadn't (or couldn't) romanced her (female PCs had a much harder time without doctoring the game, which I think was particularly unfair), but it was still a single conversation.) The other problem I have is that I have come to think of anyone embracing the Blackguard PrC as being irredeemable. I don't know why - probably Scyllua Darkhope... And she died an ignoble death and her ally, Fzoul, refuses to raise her. That stung. I was hoping she'd return to the light. |
| Charles Phipps02-07-08, 04:20 AM | In the NWN OC, you have one conversation with her that snaps her out of it if you're successful. If she were a Blackguard, I think it would be a lot harder to do than that. (Yeah it was a tricky persuade check, especially if you hadn't (or couldn't) romanced her (female PCs had a much harder time without doctoring the game, which I think was particularly unfair), but it was still a single conversation.) The other problem I have is that I have come to think of anyone embracing the Blackguard PrC as being irredeemable. I don't know why - probably Scyllua Darkhope... And she died an ignoble death and her ally, Fzoul, refuses to raise her. That stung. I was hoping she'd return to the light. 1. Well, the issue is that in this game, Aribeth certainly can be much more difficult or not to redeem. I want to stick to NWN semi-closely because it's important to not screw up a story that people already enjoy a great deal. However, I'm not afraid of modifying what doesn't work for a better story. Certainly, our game is going to be significantly less focused on combat than NWN. 2. Funnilly, that may have some revelence in our game because the player characters DID try to redeem Scyulla Darkhope in our games. For "background flavor" at the start of this party, I established one of the PCs as her sister and another as her cousin. Ultimately, Scyulla chose loyalty to Fzoul and Bane (who cared nothing for her) over devotion to her own family and died. Though her death was hardly ignoable and suitably epic (if not heroic). That may or may not be relevant to the game as certainly it might well cast a shadow over certain character's opinions on the matter. Redeeming a Blackguard is certainly as difficult as making a Paladin Fall. |
| Charles Phipps02-07-08, 04:40 AM | Well, it's not like it's impossible for a non-human to be devoted to a human god. Although, the NWN: OC doesn't necessarily get religion in the Realms "right" anyway. It makes Tyr look like he's the only deity anyone bothers to worship (and remember how the people of the Uthgardt are referred to as "pagans"--that was pretty strange in a polytheistic setting). Ironically, this probably reflects my own tendency to regional biases as well. My Church of the Triad is pretty close to being worshiped exclusively in some parts of the North. You just tend to throw prayers to other gods when you need something. Definitely, the Triad worshipers would not call Uthgardt pagans, though. The word we'd use is "heathens" for not worshiping a proper deity but their Animistic Spirits. The bigotry is still there, also for classist reasons, but the emphasis is decidedly different. I think my charted timeline goes a bit like this. 1. The PCs arrive in Neverwinter. Obviously, they can't know Aribeth from the Academy. I may/may not think it a good idea to have Aribeth be an un-remembered part of their background. 2. Aribeth is assigned by Lord Nasher to be their guide, they prove themselves. 3. Aribeth fights her attraction to the PC while being engaged to her boring fianace. 4. The PCs handle several adventures in the region if we're lucky. 5. They discover the nature of the Wailing Death. 6. The mob sentences all the captured Helmites to death and one innocent man. To compound the issue, I think I'm going to go with the fact that the Elf IS going to get a trial but he's going to be found guilty because of the fact that he tried to redeem his old friend rather than kill him when he found the truth---that will add an ironic edge to the proceedings as they believe in cahoots. Plus, unfortunately, his naive and trusting nature allowed the False Helmites to use much of his aid to spread the plague. 7. Aribeth is heartbroken and angry beyond comfort. It's possible she may turn to the PCs at some point but if they accept her affections in a time of weakness. Well....that's not going to help her state of mind (Tyrites are conservative about these things) Unbeknownst to the PCs, for the past few months, Aribeth has been having nightmares and stress related to Morag's magic as she attempts to drive her to distraction about the Wailing Death and make a psychic link. It turns out, our version of Morag is a Chosen of the Creator race of Shar. 8. Eventually, she abandons the group out of hatred for people who have referred to her lover as a traitor and cast aspersions on her. There, she's visited by a manifestation of Shar (who qualifies as an evil outsider) who convinces her that her lover must be avenged. Aribeth renounces Tyr for his injustice and pledges herself to the darkness. Her heart is crystalized in Shar's black magic (with Morag's help) and she attacks Neverwinter, probably doing some heinous deed to solidify her status as a Blackguard [I'll avoid killing younglings ala Anakin Skywalker.] 9. The PCs are the only people on Toril who can reach her, because they're the only people in the world who probably are ones she still believe represent justice and mercy. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-07-08, 01:14 PM | Have you played Hordes of the Underdark? It's a pretty good expansion, much better than Shadows of Undrentide. The ending leaves a bit of doubt as to canonicity though. It also takes you to high-epics --I think my main character was 27 or so. Yes - I beat NwN and the expansion with a fighter 16 / rogue 11. Here's a brief synposis: You find Aribeth frozen in a block of ice in one of the 9 Hells (Avernus, I think, been a while). She was hanged for treason after her failed invasion and generally disliked. You revive her and she journies along with you. She ends up as a Paladin X/ Blackguard 6, but I believe that those numbers can change depending on your alignment. You can even bring her back with you and live happily ever after! Of course, that is after Mephistophales invades and slaughters half the town before you kill him. Probably not canon, but it works for 4e! Actually... The game isn't too clear about the reason for Aribeth's death. IIRC, there are differing accounts, and each account could have been mistaken and/or biased. Also, I didn't think the end of HotU went wildly against canon. Of course, I didn't picture Big M destroying too much of Waterdeep before the PC showed up. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-07-08, 01:20 PM | Well, that's your choice... But let me ask you this - if a PC or NPC does something terrible under the influence of a very high level enchantment/charm spell, are they to blame for their actions or the person who cast the spell on them? And what about the person who donned a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and went from LG to CE? Are they to blame for the mass slaughter they go on to commit, or the curse of the Helm? I don't think Aribeth is completely blameless, but Morag's influence definitely needs to be taken into account. Well, during the endgame, doesn't the PC meet a person similar to Aribeth (perhaps a parallel version of herself) who WAS able to resist Morag's influence? That to me implies that it wasn't a given that Morag could take control of her. Also, the fact that the PC can "talk her out of it" at all makes the Helm of Opposite Alignment theory seem dubious to me, or at least suggests that Morag's influence wasn't as powerful as Aribeth herself seemed to think it was. If Aribeth was being controlled by powerful magic, I would think powerful magic would also be required to snap her out of it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-07-08, 01:23 PM | (Yeah it was a tricky persuade check, especially if you hadn't (or couldn't) romanced her (female PCs had a much harder time without doctoring the game, which I think was particularly unfair)... I agree, that was annoying. |
| The Ubbergeek02-07-08, 03:39 PM | Definitely, the Triad worshipers would not call Uthgardt pagans, though. The word we'd use is "heathens" for not worshiping a proper deity but their Animistic Spirits. The bigotry is still there, also for classist reasons, but the emphasis is decidedly different. Uncultured, violent barbarian brutes if you prefer. It's weird, I don't remember "heatens" used, but "barbarians" in the insult form. All in all, it's how it is... 'Don't trust them, they are violent parasites.'. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-07-08, 04:38 PM | Heya, That may or may not be relevant to the game as certainly it might well cast a shadow over certain character's opinions on the matter. Redeeming a Blackguard is certainly as difficult as making a Paladin Fall. And if you believe some people, that's as easy as a single dice roll. :rolleyes: Or as easy as a DM's role playing trap that's only in the game to make the PC paladin fall. Well, during the endgame, doesn't the PC meet a person similar to Aribeth (perhaps a parallel version of herself) who WAS able to resist Morag's influence? That to me implies that it wasn't a given that Morag could take control of her. Also, the fact that the PC can "talk her out of it" at all makes the Helm of Opposite Alignment theory seem dubious to me, or at least suggests that Morag's influence wasn't as powerful as Aribeth herself seemed to think it was. If Aribeth was being controlled by powerful magic, I would think powerful magic would also be required to snap her out of it. By the time the PC gets to Aribeth, Morag is done with her and has pretty much abandoned her to her fate. So her influence may have waned... People, of their own accord, don't change alignments overnight either. It usually happens over a long period of time, and in the first chapter of the game, there were no signs she was already falling. Also, I honestly don't see a grieving Aribeth siding with Morag of her own free will, even if she were angry with the lack of justice in Fenthick's case. It's pretty much baldly stated in the game that Morag was influencing Aribeth - speaking into her mind, causing her nightmares, and probably other things we don't know about as well. As for alternate!Aribeth, we don't know what influences there were on her, or what was helping her to resist the alternate!Morag. For all we know alternate!Morag might not have been as powerful, or alternate!<CHARNAME> had an earlier positive influence on alternate!Aribeth, or alternate!Aribeth may not have had the same background as reality!Aribeth had and therefore did not have the same vengeful nature... We don't know anything about the circumstances, so we really don't have enough evidence to conclude that "alternate!Aribeth wasn't broken in the same way, so reality!Aribeth must have been doing everything of her own free will". (In fact, I'm pretty sure we're given the impression that alternate!Aribeth comes from a very different, less dark and gritty, world.) Unfortunately, the NWN OC plot was very very weak, and the fall and redemption of Aribeth was it's weakest point... |
| SmartPaladin02-07-08, 05:32 PM | I was in a very odd place in that part of the game... As I recall I was play a Paladin of Hoar, or maybe I was a Cleric. Can't remember. Anyway, on one hand, Vengeance was called out by the people, in Fenthick's death. So in a RP stand point, I could see my character being the one to kill him, it'd have been quick though. Like a beheading. Was he indeed the one to blame? No, not really. Fenthick was more of the "In the wrong place, in the wrong time" fall guy. If they had the deity system set up better, as in it actually mattered who your god was. I'd have probably defended Fenthick, telling the people of Neverwinter that he was as much a victim as they. The stab of betrayal stings the hardest after all. But alas, it was not so. Thus, Fenthick died. And I offered what comfort I could to Lady Aribeth. As well as continuing the hunt for those who were truly to blame. Aribeth betrayed us, and thus I had to deal with her as well. Though why everyone was so shocked, and heartbroken by Aribeth's betrayal is beyond me. It was almost like "Aribeth betrayed us! She, a Paladin of Tyr, God of Justice! Has turned her back on us, and now seeks to bring us low! Why? Why would she do such a thing?" How many other people found themselves going "You want a list?" As a Hoarite, I was half tempted to just wash my hands clean of the whole mess, and let Aribeth do to them what she willed. I didn't though. Nope, I beat some sense into her head, then told her to go back to Neverwinter. Should have told her to stay with me though, brought her the teachings of Hoar, that kind of thing. But that wasn't a choice, so off to Neverwinter she went, and off I went to finish this none sense once and for all. In hindsight, if it would have let me. I'd have bought Morag back from the dead, just so I could have killed her/him/it again. A few hundred times more at that. Lord was that a stupid, pointless war. Seemed like everything that could go wrong, did. The city should have been razed and rebuilt. Just leave all of the stupid, greedy, self centered nobles in there, as well as Lord Nasher, get out all of the commoners, and just raze it. Because at least most of the commoners were worth a damn. Then again... They did let their blinding rage get the better of them, and thus they killed an innocent man and started the ball rolling on the stupidity. :mad: At least NWN2's plot was a bit better... I didn't want to kill so many stupid fools. |
| The Ubbergeek02-07-08, 05:47 PM | My first NWN character - a LN/G human monk - felt betrayed by her in a righteous anger, but at the end, he forgave her as she yelded. The town was very much in a PoL time... plague, violence, fear.... Fear lead to anger... etc... It don't excuse things done but it explains... Revenge and vengeance, it wouldn't do good. Two evils don't make a good.... |
| SmartPaladin02-08-08, 01:47 AM | I've still looking for the real difference between Justice and Vengeance... So far, the best I can come up with, is the word. Maybe it's when Vengeance is blind, and it's only for the sake of Vengeance. Which is indeed evil, and does no good so ever. If it's more of the retribution side of Vengeance, then most could mistake it for Justice... While it could very well still be Vengeance. No one claims that Marvel comics Ghost Rider is evil. Well, he's no real saint, but he's no real sinner ether. He smites the wicked after all. Can't that be called Justice also? Sorry, I always ramble on when someone calls Vengeance evil. |
| Meldread02-08-08, 04:17 AM | Well NWN's plot and story was weak. I think I only played through the game once, and I think I was a LE Human Fighter and worshiper of Bane. I was disappointed that there was not a real evil side of the plot like in most Bioware games, but I ended up killing Aribeth. I was disappointed that I was not given the chance to join Morag. :P HotU was the best out of all of them, while the second expansion (I forget its name) was the worst. |
| Charles Phipps02-08-08, 12:42 PM | Vengeance is to satisfy the person who recieves it. Justice is to satisfy the world. |
| Mula02-08-08, 10:54 PM | Aribeth is... painful. Let us not remember the horrible voice acting and the paper thin characterization. |
| XHereticX02-09-08, 11:31 AM | Well NWN's plot and story was weak. I think I only played through the game once, and I think I was a LE Human Fighter and worshiper of Bane. I was disappointed that there was not a real evil side of the plot like in most Bioware games, but I ended up killing Aribeth. I was disappointed that I was not given the chance to join Morag. :P HotU was the best out of all of them, while the second expansion (I forget its name) was the worst. I was a necromancer in the original game, and a cleric that served Orcus in HoTU. Yes, I share your sentiments. |
| sfdragon02-09-08, 06:00 PM | as far as i can think. Aribeth was either executed or cut down in the streets of neverwinter if she yielded. as for revenge and vengeance and justice........ well revenge and vengeance are diffferent things in a certain point of view. they do however cross lines and become blurred in the process... justice on the otherhand, the above is pretty much correct, its to satisfy the world |
| XHereticX02-09-08, 09:47 PM | Vengence is a twisted and personally-imposed form of justice, so it is technically a subtype. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-10-08, 05:48 PM | By the time the PC gets to Aribeth, Morag is done with her and has pretty much abandoned her to her fate. So her influence may have waned... People, of their own accord, don't change alignments overnight either. It usually happens over a long period of time, and in the first chapter of the game, there were no signs she was already falling. Also, I honestly don't see a grieving Aribeth siding with Morag of her own free will, even if she were angry with the lack of justice in Fenthick's case. It's pretty much baldly stated in the game that Morag was influencing Aribeth - speaking into her mind, causing her nightmares, and probably other things we don't know about as well. Stated by who, though? In many cases, we are given information via unreliable narrators, and as I've said before (I think?) I'm not the type of person who likes to take everything stated in the game for granted as unvarnished truth. Heck, we don't even know who the narrator in the game is, and as far as I'm concerned we don't have any reason to trust that everything he's telling is the truth. Also, influence from Morag is not enough, for me, to buy into the "Helm of Opposite Alignment" theory. Anyone can be influenced by someone else, but that doesn't mean they aren't accountable for their actions. If I recall correctly, The HoOA is a cursed item. I don't equate it with subtle (albeit malignant) influence. But if I haven't said it before, if you see the character of Aribeth differently than I do, I don't think it's a big deal.:) I respect that, I'm just explaining why I don't "buy it" that Aribeth had zero control over her actions (which is how I interpret the HoOA theory). As for alternate!Aribeth, we don't know what influences there were on her, or what was helping her to resist the alternate!Morag. For all we know alternate!Morag might not have been as powerful, or alternate!<CHARNAME> had an earlier positive influence on alternate!Aribeth, or alternate!Aribeth may not have had the same background as reality!Aribeth had and therefore did not have the same vengeful nature... We don't know anything about the circumstances, so we really don't have enough evidence to conclude that "alternate!Aribeth wasn't broken in the same way, so reality!Aribeth must have been doing everything of her own free will". (In fact, I'm pretty sure we're given the impression that alternate!Aribeth comes from a very different, less dark and gritty, world.) Unfortunately, the NWN OC plot was very very weak, and the fall and redemption of Aribeth was it's weakest point... "We don't have enough information" is exactly the reason why I don't give the "regular" Aribeth the benefit of the doubt that she had zero control over herself when she was leading her dark army and cutting down swaths of innocent people like wheat. The alternate Aribeth did come from a different world (her name wasn't even Aribeth, but she was meant as an obvious parallel) but I didn't get the impression that there had to be less evil there than on Toril. Just me, though... As for the NWN OC plot being weak, I agree with you 100% there. Heck, I even thought the gameplay was weak, as well as repetitive. And the PC should have been the star of the story as well, not Aribeth. Once reason, I'll admit, why I do not adore the character (although as I said, I don't dislike her, either) is because I thought the plot was too focused around what was happening to her, not the PC. I am one of those people who believes that the PC is supposed to be important and have important, emotional (and even tragic) things happening to him or her...the PC shouldn't just be a glorified errand-runner, as she was in this game. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-10-08, 06:00 PM | HotU was the best out of all of them, while the second expansion (I forget its name) was the worst. HotU was indeed spectacular, in all respects (well, at least I think so). Shadows of Undrentide started out fine, but got pretty lousy towards the end. The final chapter had virtually no plot or story involved. |
| SmartPaladin02-11-08, 08:37 AM | HotU was indeed spectacular, in all respects (well, at least I think so). Shadows of Undrentide started out fine, but got pretty lousy towards the end. The final chapter had virtually no plot or story involved. The best part of HotU was the talking sword. He made the game awesome. :D And the fact that you could pick what kinda of weapon he'd be (i.e. Longsword, Short Sword, Greatsword, Dagger, not sure if Bastard Sword was one of them) at the offset was nice. |
| creyzi4zb1202-11-08, 09:08 AM | Don't the main character of the game (you) and Aribeth fall in love in the end (if you do another story flow in the game).... I find it aggravating why they showed little about what happened to your relationship with Aribeth in the end...It was like...she died and the hero of Neverwinter left coz of that. poof...seems a bit too fast for me. |
| SmartPaladin02-11-08, 04:12 PM | I got that ending. Aribeth stayed with me until the end of our (my) days. Then she passed on with me. Unless she felt she'd just go haunt Neverwinter. :P NWN2: side-note. Anyone find it a little funny that Fenthick rose from the dead, just to haunt the "Tomb of Betrayers"? Almost like he was raging against his fate to remain in such a place until the end of time, or at least until Neverwinter Nights 3 comes up, which will be 4.0 D&D, and eveyone would have forgotten about poor Fenthick. Nah... Somehow I think he won't get off that easily. There'd probably be a mission where everythings going straight to the hells and Ghost Fenthick is ravaging the city. Something about finally being up to settle his score with the people of Neverwinter. I only have one question about NWN2, where in the Hells were the Clerics of Kelemvor? There was undead everywhere! You only hear about one follower of Kelemvor, and he was a Doomguide. Who was dead. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 05:46 PM | The best part of HotU was the talking sword. He made the game awesome. :D And the fact that you could pick what kinda of weapon he'd be (i.e. Longsword, Short Sword, Greatsword, Dagger, not sure if Bastard Sword was one of them) at the offset was nice. Yes, I enjoyed that talking sword. And the Valen romance.:D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-12-08, 05:49 PM | NWN2: side-note. Anyone find it a little funny that Fenthick rose from the dead, just to haunt the "Tomb of Betrayers"? I thought that encounter was pretty dumb, and it even seemed bugged at the time I played it. Fenthick doesn't say anything, he just zips around the room. So, he could have just been replaced with some other monster, since the fact that he is Fenthick of NWN1 fame has no importance. |
| Dankan02-14-08, 06:07 AM | Scullya Darkhope died?How?I remember of seeing this posted before but ithought i had only had to do with 4e.Can someone inform pls? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-14-08, 01:44 PM | Scullya Darkhope died?How?I remember of seeing this posted before but ithought i had only had to do with 4e.Can someone inform pls? See the recent Shadowdale adventure. Anything can happen in an adventure, but at the end of the book you'll see that the designers have an "official" outcome for it--one such outcome is that Scyllua Darkhope is now deceased. |
| SmartPaladin02-14-08, 04:36 PM | I thought that encounter was pretty dumb, and it even seemed bugged at the time I played it. Fenthick doesn't say anything, he just zips around the room. So, he could have just been replaced with some other monster, since the fact that he is Fenthick of NWN1 fame has no importance. That's true, the Devs really should have put not only more work, about also more work into it. Maybe letting you see if you could put Fenthink to rest, and not just having to beat the crap out of him. Though I wonder why his character model was the same as the Half-Elves... Or at least it was the last time I played, I haven't been able to play NWN2 since about two or three months before NWN2: MotB came out. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-14-08, 08:32 PM | That's true, the Devs really should have put not only more work, about also more work into it. Maybe letting you see if you could put Fenthink to rest, and not just having to beat the crap out of him. Indeed, using Fenthick had a built in quest hook, and they didn't even bother to use it. Or, the quest got cut or was unfinished or something. |
| SmartPaladin02-14-08, 10:57 PM | Gah, meant to say "More work, and more thought". *sighs* One of those days. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 11:37 AM | No worries.;) |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 12:03 PM | Well, our game with Aribeth has begun and I've introduced both her along with Fenthick into the storyline. At present, she's travelling along with our heroes to go fight the local big bads in order to establish a bond of trust between them. Fenthick is being his usual affiable self while she's much more Type-A personality. I decided to stick with her being a Half-Elf rather than Elf for my own reasons, however. I didn't particularly want to deal with the issue of an Elvish conversion or the fact she's supposed to be centuries old yet, ironically, I've made Fenthick into a Full-Elf. Because this is a campaign arc, it's going to go very differently than the Neverwinter Nights game as well with probably several adventures before I spring the death of Fenthick upon them. During this time, I'm going to have to decide to introduce the romantic tension between her and the players. I'm not sure how I'm going to do that, though. Because, clearly, they havent' spent time in the Academy together. I have, however, introduced the idea that Fenthick and Aribeth aren't very close lovers. In Fenthick's own words "Aribeth is married to her job." |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 01:03 PM | I decided to stick with her being a Half-Elf rather than Elf for my own reasons, however. I didn't particularly want to deal with the issue of an Elvish conversion or the fact she's supposed to be centuries old yet, ironically, I've made Fenthick into a Full-Elf. Well, I believe he was a full elf in the game, too.:) |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 01:30 PM | Yeah, I'm open to any suggestions as to what people might think for good encounters or hooks to illustrate the characters personalities before I utterly smash them down. I'm also really not sure how to set up Fenthick for the plague. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-15-08, 05:54 PM | Heya, Yeah, I'm open to any suggestions as to what people might think for good encounters or hooks to illustrate the characters personalities before I utterly smash them down. I'm also really not sure how to set up Fenthick for the plague. I was writing a fan fic novel based on the NWN OC from the point of view of Aribeth. I never got past the first chapter of the game, and I don't think I really intend to revisit it... But how I handled the relationship was like this... Fenthick was very close to Desther (or however his name was spelled, I'd have to go check my notes), and was beginning to know there was something wrong with him. But by that point he was starting to have feelings for him, and Desther began to take advantage of that. Fenthick tried to change Desther's mind about how to handle the plague (he wasn't sure that Desther was directly involved or if he was just sitting on his hands and aiding the plague by not doing anything about it, if that makes sense), and ultimately in the end, gave Desther the ward stone for Castle Never (that is what it's called? I just got up... lol), hoping that such a show of trust would soften Desther's heart towards Neverwinter. This set up the chain of events that led Desther to run through a portal followed by Fenthick... Fenthick was convinced that he could get the cure back from him. In short, he was not particularly smart, and extremely niave... and in love. This also gave another reason for the growing distance between Fenthick and Aribeth. Ironically it seems partially opposite to yours, Charles - Fenthick is the one who can't stop talking about the plague and how they were going to fix it... But after the Hero of Neverwinter gets back from Helm's Hold with the two men in tow, Fenthick is full of despair and hopelessness. He won't help his own cause, and no matter how much Aribeth and the Hero of Neverwinter fight for him, he basically wants to die... Because he felt he failed the man he loved (Desther). As for Aribeth, well she hated Desther from the moment she met him, and the feeling was mutual. By the end, Aribeth knew what was going on between her husband and Desther, but she was too busy trying to save Fenthick's life. When she visited Fenthick in his cell, he wouldn't talk to her other than to say that Tyr had turned his face from him, and Desther, in the next cell, taunted her... which was where her downfall began. (Shoulda guessed I'd have a gay twist, huh? :P) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 06:52 PM | Fenthick was very close to Desther (or however his name was spelled, I'd have to go check my notes), and was beginning to know there was something wrong with him. But by that point he was starting to have feelings for him, and Desther began to take advantage of that. Fenthick tried to change Desther's mind about how to handle the plague (he wasn't sure that Desther was directly involved or if he was just sitting on his hands and aiding the plague by not doing anything about it, if that makes sense), and ultimately in the end, gave Desther the ward stone for Castle Never (that is what it's called? I just got up... lol), hoping that such a show of trust would soften Desther's heart towards Neverwinter. This set up the chain of events that led Desther to run through a portal followed by Fenthick... Fenthick was convinced that he could get the cure back from him. In short, he was not particularly smart, and extremely niave... and in love. If I recall correctly, that was actually more or less what happened in the game as well.:) Fenthick knew something was "off" about Desther, but remained silent about concerns, because he was hoping he'd be able to convince Desther to do the right thing if it came to that (and he was quick to defend Desther whenever the PC clashed with him). (Shoulda guessed I'd have a gay twist, huh? :P) I like it.:D |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 07:17 PM | Well, my only problem with the gay twist is actually the universal element. Would Aribeth really say ":censored: you, Tyr" and turn to Shar to embrace all the powers of evil to destroy Neverwinter in a blind mad rage/despair over an adulterer? It seems to me for the total and unrelenting corruption that is Aribeth's Fall. Essentially, we're talking a female Darth Vader, it seems unlikely that you would have quite the same reaction if he was cheating on her. [Though, admittedly, this may not be so problematic in the Forgotten Realms] And yes, I'm going with the idea that Aribeth pledges herself to Shar in exchange for the power to wreck her vengeance against Neverwinter. I didn't really buy it in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (where the only decent bit was the clear implication that Anakin is worried the child is Obi Wans) and I'm not sure that I buy it here. Though it is a powerful and interesting option that has its ups and downs. Besides, I tend to portray elves as omnisexual anyway. So it's a tough call. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-15-08, 07:22 PM | Well, my only problem with the gay twist is actually the universal element. Would Aribeth really say ":censored: you, Tyr" and turn to Shar to embrace all the powers of evil to destroy Neverwinter in a blind mad rage/despair over an adulterer? Good point, although that can be fixed but not having Aribeth ever know that Fenthick was cheating on her. Or, perhaps he didn't cheat on her at all, he just had an unreciprocated (and unrevealed) crush on Desther. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-16-08, 07:48 AM | Heya, Well, my only problem with the gay twist is actually the universal element. Would Aribeth really say ":censored: you, Tyr" and turn to Shar to embrace all the powers of evil to destroy Neverwinter in a blind mad rage/despair over an adulterer? Well you mention the important point in all that yourself: [Though, admittedly, this may not be so problematic in the Forgotten Realms] I don't think Fenthick having an affair would change her reaction at all. The mad mob was still responsible for his death, and she wouldn't have stopped feeling for Fenthick in such a short amount of time... Heck, the Aribeth in my fan fic was definitely on her way down into insanity, and knowledge of his affair was the salt in the wound. It was yet another thing in Aribeth's life that Morag was able to use to manipulate her. I personally think Aribeth would be wary of committing herself to any god, as I'm sure she felt betrayed by Tyr, and she wouldn't trust other gods not to do the same... Morag did a good job of facilitating Aribeth's vengeance on Neverwinter on her own, without having to bring any deity into it at all. Having Shar brought into it would make it impossible to redeem Aribeth, IMHO. |
| Charles Phipps02-16-08, 02:46 PM | Having Shar brought into it would make it impossible to redeem Aribeth, IMHO. Honestly, I don't see how. Love can accomplish anything and frankly it makes it better to have Shar defeated by the power of love because she's the goddess of despair. However, it requires the PCs and Aribeth to be genuinely in love. Redemption is, IMHO, never impossible either. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-16-08, 06:15 PM | Heya, Honestly, I don't see how. Love can accomplish anything and frankly it makes it better to have Shar defeated by the power of love because she's the goddess of despair. However, it requires the PCs and Aribeth to be genuinely in love. Redemption is, IMHO, never impossible either. Sure it's not, just have one of the characters learn Sanctify the Wicked. :P :D ;) Seriously, I do agree with you, but I am having trouble thinking outside the context of the NWN OC, which had both her fall and redemption be impossibly fast. Given enough time, they might be able to do it, but it won't ever be a certainty. The need some way of staying in non-hostile close contact long enough to do the conversion back - capturing and imprisoning her is probably the only way they'll be able to do it, and even then I think the imprisonment bit will be a negative against the PCs (honestly, who likes being stuck in a cell?)... There are rules for redeeming evil people in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which are a little too crunchy for my liking but could form good mechanical basis for Role Playing if you tinkered with them a bit. But it can't be an overnight thing, and you need to take into account that there's no one as fanatical as a convert... So they'll be on the back foot from the moment she converts. Of all the evil gods, I feel Shar would be the hardest to convert someone from because of the insidious and subtle nature of the faith - someone who embraces Shar is usually either bitter and cruel and filled with revenge, or apathetic and lost beyond belief (read: suicidal). Odd note and as an example of the subtlety of Shar's faith: I seem to remember reading about a group of LN or TN followers of Shar who depict her in a more positive light, and there may well have even been Good followers too... but I can't seem to remember where I read it... |
| Charles Phipps02-16-08, 06:28 PM | Seriously, I do agree with you, but I am having trouble thinking outside the context of the NWN OC, which had both her fall and redemption be impossibly fast. Yes, that's a major issue that I'm trying to illustrate here. Specifically, that this campaign is fairly likely to go on much longer than the in-game events of Neverwinter Nights. The player characters will certainly know Aribeth longer and more intimately (though unlikely to be in a relationship until Dexter is dead---at best a night together before she leaves). You also raise a good point about what to do regarding the player characters confrontation with her. Unfortunately, I can't really illustrate what my players will say or whether they will even try to redeem her. I do think that it's possible she might be unwilling to kill the player though and deliberately seeking death at this point (having achieved a portion of her 'vengeance' and instead found it disgusting) Building her up after that might be interesting. But yes, I'm probably seeing this in terms of a Fiendish pact. Tyr won't serve her need to go after the people of Neverwinter for her vengeful passion, so she offers her service to Shar. It could have easilly been Hoar but the pain and loss are appealing to her as well. I imagine Shar doesn't honestly believe Aribeth is a good candidate for her faith but certainly is more interested in watching her eventually destroy herself out of momentary rage then feel the guilt then damn herself in despair. I wouldn't be surprised if her early attempts at redemption once Shar abandons her would be suicidal in nature. FYI, your above statement was very helpful. Edit: I think I will go with the fact that Desther and Fenthick were lovers. A nice way to comment that the fact that he loved another man in addition to her was only a mild problem in the Forgotten Realms. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-17-08, 05:29 PM | I would like to throw a bit of a wrench into this discussion, though it may not matter since Charles isn't necessarily going by everything that the games say: In HotU, Aribeth reveals that she never loved Fenthick, she was only with him because everything about the situation seemed so "perfect" (that is, they were the stereotypical couple that seem like the perfect match to everyone on the outside, but in fact had zero chemistry with each other). If that's true, that means that whatever caused Aribeth to go postal, it wasn't necessarily because she lost her "dearest love", because that wasn't what Fenthick was. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-17-08, 08:49 PM | Heya, I would like to throw a bit of a wrench into this discussion, though it may not matter since Charles isn't necessarily going by everything that the games say: In HotU, Aribeth reveals that she never loved Fenthick, she was only with him because everything about the situation seemed so "perfect" (that is, they were the stereotypical couple that seem like the perfect match to everyone on the outside, but in fact had zero chemistry with each other). If that's true, that means that whatever caused Aribeth to go postal, it wasn't necessarily because she lost her "dearest love", because that wasn't what Fenthick was. You know, I had completely forgotten about that - I guess the explanation was to show how Aribeth could have fallen for the PC so quickly. Still, it doesn't say that Aribeth wasn't friends with Fenthick, just that she had no romantic chemistry. From my own perspective, I know I would lay down my life for my friends and would react rather angrily/fiercely if something threatened them - so the unjust treatment of Fenthick may still have been enough to set her off... Especially in light of Morag's influence over her. (Otherwise, as I said, the story is simply not believable.) IMHO, it just adds weight to my argument that Morag's influence was the reason Aribeth fell. |
| Charles Phipps02-17-08, 09:02 PM | Heya, You know, I had completely forgotten about that - I guess the explanation was to show how Aribeth could have fallen for the PC so quickly. Still, it doesn't say that Aribeth wasn't friends with Fenthick, just that she had no romantic chemistry. From my own perspective, I know I would lay down my life for my friends and would react rather angrily/fiercely if something threatened them - so the unjust treatment of Fenthick may still have been enough to set her off... Especially in light of Morag's influence over her. (Otherwise, as I said, the story is simply not believable.) IMHO, it just adds weight to my argument that Morag's influence was the reason Aribeth fell. Honestly, I'll doubt I'll really highlight Morag's influence. It'll be there but its quite likely that Aribeth might have had a 20% or so chance of turning on Neverwinter on her own (though its likely to have been simply abandoning them to their fate or something similiar). The Aribeth in our game is already introduced to players and I'm playing up her "Fatal Flaws" at this point. Aribeth is passionate above all other things and frequently prone to letting her emotions get the better of her. Not the least of this is her utter hatred of evil and how it drives her to occasionally make stupid mistakes in battle (Last night she turned and charged a small army of Dragonborn allied with Black Garius). She's, overall, an extremely proud Lady and one that doesn't brook much interferance with the duties of Neverwinter. Re: Fenthick, I tend to think that Aribeth and he were close friends but I do believe that he's not the kind of person that she'd fall for. In the case of Fenthick, I'm roleplaying up a gentle and emotionally reserved sort. Aribeth is something more like an Eowyn Figure with all the Norse attitudes implied. At heart, there was not the totality of a soul connection that could come between two passionate warriors. Or something rot like that. But yes, the slight of her pride combined with her anger and the serious nature of the wrong pretty much drives her to totally seeing red against Neverwinter. I am worried about "Anakin Skywalkering" Aribeth too much however. There's something about too much of a flaw that one is unlikeable. Sound good? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-17-08, 09:32 PM | I am worried about "Anakin Skywalkering" Aribeth too much however. There's something about too much of a flaw that one is unlikeable. Sound good? Sounds fine to me. As far as making Aribeth unlikeable--that's a subjective thing, so I would't worry about it too much. In my opinion, Aribeth's worst flaw is that she is too easily influenced (I don't buy the Helm of Opposite Alignment theory, but I do buy the idea of her going postal because of bad influence). This is because Aribeth is a character who--if you take what happens in HotU literally--will decide whether to become a paladin or a blackguard all after having a talk with a perfect stranger. Interestingly enough, Aribeth's True Name in that game turns out to have the honorific "the Twinsouled" attached to it (I know that from looking in the system, by the way--like I said before I never took Aribeth into my party). |
| Storm_Silverhand02-17-08, 10:37 PM | Heya, In my opinion, Aribeth's worst flaw is that she is too easily influenced (I don't buy the Helm of Opposite Alignment theory, but I do buy the idea of her going postal because of bad influence). This is because Aribeth is a character who--if you take what happens in HotU literally--will decide whether to become a paladin or a blackguard all after having a talk with a perfect stranger. Well, to be fair, the whole "changes her mind because the PC talks to her" is a part of the game mechanism, and has little to do with realistic story telling. If you were going to take that at face value, a number of CRPGs have characters that do similar heel face turns/face heel turns at the drop of a hat... So there are a lot of easily influenced people around in CRPG worlds. (My Bioware example of the month: Bastilla Shan from KotOR... I'm pretty sure it's not just Bioware though.) As for Helm of Opposite alignment, maybe that is too strong a comparison. But I stand by Morag magically influencing Aribeth. Interestingly enough, Aribeth's True Name in that game turns out to have the honorific "the Twinsouled" attached to it (I know that from looking in the system, by the way--like I said before I never took Aribeth into my party). Having played through with Aribeth (and Nathyrra) in my party, I can confirm that. :) (I never liked Valen, mostly because I don't like that type of character (alpha bad boy), and, IIRC, partly because I hated his surname "Shadowbreath".) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-19-08, 07:57 PM | Heya, Well, to be fair, the whole "changes her mind because the PC talks to her" is a part of the game mechanism, and has little to do with realistic story telling. If you were going to take that at face value, a number of CRPGs have characters that do similar heel face turns/face heel turns at the drop of a hat... So there are a lot of easily influenced people around in CRPG worlds. (My Bioware example of the month: Bastilla Shan from KotOR... I'm pretty sure it's not just Bioware though.) I agree with that. But it's in the game, so who is to say it's unfair to take it as presented? That's my opinion, anyway. As for Helm of Opposite alignment, maybe that is too strong a comparison. But I stand by Morag magically influencing Aribeth. And as I said, I agree with you on that. However, as I said before I don't know enough details to say whether or not Aribeth had absolutely no control over what she did. Having played through with Aribeth (and Nathyrra) in my party, I can confirm that. :) (I never liked Valen, mostly because I don't like that type of character (alpha bad boy), and, IIRC, partly because I hated his surname "Shadowbreath".) Heheh.:) His surname is indeed quite funny. I quite loved Valen, myself, although even with him I will not overlook his faults. For example, he is annoyingly passive-aggressive towards the PC in the early part of his relationship with him/her (whether the relationship is romantic or otherwise). And it turns out that his professed lack of trust for the PC isn't a "trust issue" at all, but rather sheer jealousy (namely, at being replaced by the PC as the leader of the Seer's forces). |
| SmartPaladin02-20-08, 12:47 PM | Heheh.:) His surname is indeed quite funny. I quite loved Valen, myself, although even with him I will not overlook his faults. For example, he is annoyingly passive-aggressive towards the PC in the early part of his relationship with him/her (whether the relationship is romantic or otherwise). And it turns out that his professed lack of trust for the PC isn't a "trust issue" at all, but rather sheer jealousy (namely, at being replaced by the PC as the leader of the Seer's forces). I think that comes from his Tiefling nature. For most Tieflings, it's hard to find a group of people that accepts you for who and what you are, that's one of the reasons why so many go evil. Sure, their demonic blood may have a hand in it, but no person is really that much better. For Valen, in the Seer's forces, he found acceptance and people who needed his skill in combat. He felt wanted and needed. Which, for those who have known only pain, hatred, and loneliness. For someone new, someone your leader has just met, be able to take that spot in just an instance. Well... Take a look at that fragile ego, that self confidence. And tell me why he shouldn't have felt Jealous. He went from feeling needed, to unwanted in a matter of moments. Sure, that probably wasn't the Seer's intent, but your dealing with a Outcast, and there's only a handful of Races that understand what it means to be a Outcast. One of the reasons why I tend to play Tieflings, Half-Elves, Aasimar, and Half-Orcs (not always in that order). I have emotional issues, so I can connect to those races easier then most others. :bored: |
| Storm_Silverhand02-20-08, 05:06 PM | Heya, I agree with that. But it's in the game, so who is to say it's unfair to take it as presented? That's my opinion, anyway. Well I obviously do think it's an unfair assessment. It is unrealistic and turns a nuanced character into a 2d stick figure drawing, IMHO. :) (Of course, Aribeth may only be nuanced in my own mind due to me "filling in the gaps" - so my opinion is not the only valid or right opinion in the world! :P) And as I said, I agree with you on that. However, as I said before I don't know enough details to say whether or not Aribeth had absolutely no control over what she did. I don't think she had no control at all, but I do think she wasn't in her right mind. :) Heheh.:) His surname is indeed quite funny. I quite loved Valen, myself, although even with him I will not overlook his faults. For example, he is annoyingly passive-aggressive towards the PC in the early part of his relationship with him/her (whether the relationship is romantic or otherwise). And it turns out that his professed lack of trust for the PC isn't a "trust issue" at all, but rather sheer jealousy (namely, at being replaced by the PC as the leader of the Seer's forces). I don't know what it is, but Bioware seems to think that women like "Alpha Men" they need to fix. I hate it, I find them very annoying and whiny... Anomen, Carth, and Valen are all cut from the same cloth, and I generally give them the flick (or avoid them) early on... Having said that, Nathyrra had her problems as well, but for some reason didn't rub me up the wrong way. (I have encountered female characters who rubbed me up the wrong way too, just so you don't think I'm completely biased by character gender, which I happily admit I probably am anyway.) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-20-08, 08:22 PM | Heya, Well I obviously do think it's an unfair assessment. It is unrealistic and turns a nuanced character into a 2d stick figure drawing, IMHO. :) (Of course, Aribeth may only be nuanced in my own mind due to me "filling in the gaps" - so my opinion is not the only valid or right opinion in the world! :P) See, I don't think of Aribeth as having been that nuanced to begin with, so there you go.:) I think we all tend to "fill in the gaps" when it comes to characters we really like. I've done that plenty of times. I don't think she had no control at all, but I do think she wasn't in her right mind. :) True, I would think most dark knights leading evil armies tend not to be in their right minds.:) I don't know what it is, but Bioware seems to think that women like "Alpha Men" they need to fix. I hate it, I find them very annoying and whiny... Anomen, Carth, and Valen are all cut from the same cloth, and I generally give them the flick (or avoid them) early on... Having said that, Nathyrra had her problems as well, but for some reason didn't rub me up the wrong way. (I have encountered female characters who rubbed me up the wrong way too, just so you don't think I'm completely biased by character gender, which I happily admit I probably am anyway.) Even if you are, it's OK with me--I'm probably a bit biased in my own ways. I liked Anomen, Carth and Valen, myself, but you are right to say that they are all examples of characters who need their prospective romance partner to "fix" them. That's one reason why I found the fan-created Kelsey romance so refreshing--he was a character who wasn't perfect, but he didn't have any serious problems that required the PC to play "therapist". At the same time, one could say the romance was lacking in drama (which, let's face it, makes it fun sometimes), but sometimes you don't need the drama. I've also played and enjoyed the Aerie and Viconia romances, but they both suffered from the same problem that Anomen did--they were "broken" and needed their boyfriend to help fix their problems (so, female NPCs needed to be "fixed" as well). And that aspect of the BG romances tended to be one-sided too--the NPCs never gave the PC support the way the PC supported them (that did improve in ToB, though). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-20-08, 08:26 PM | He felt wanted and needed. Which, for those who have known only pain, hatred, and loneliness. For someone new, someone your leader has just met, be able to take that spot in just an instance. Well... Take a look at that fragile ego, that self confidence. And tell me why he shouldn't have felt Jealous. He went from feeling needed, to unwanted in a matter of moments. I'm not saying he had no reason to be jealous. I'm just saying that the way he expressed his jealousy was annoying and excessive at times...because I thought it was.:) |
| Charles Phipps02-21-08, 02:37 AM | I've also played and enjoyed the Aerie and Viconia romances, but they both suffered from the same problem that Anomen did--they were "broken" and needed their boyfriend to help fix their problems (so, female NPCs needed to be "fixed" as well). And that aspect of the BG romances tended to be one-sided too--the NPCs never gave the PC support the way the PC supported them (that did improve in ToB, though). While I absolutely love the Baldur's Gate games, I've got to say it's got some of the worst romance options ever. None of the women involved in the story struck me as terribly appealing. Viconia is a priestess of the Goddess of Darkness, Aerie is.....in a sentence....seriously :censored: up, and our Druid Lady is an eco-terrorist nut who just lost her husband (your friend) to horrific death. As an interesting note in our game, Imoen is a character that's accompanying our heroes. Bizarrely, she's one of the love interests for one of the PCs and I actually looked around for a mod there. Albeit, I looked for a mod that substituted "childhood friend" for sister-figure (never found one). But yes, I found the romances there rather depressing and preferred someone who was a lot more cheerful. I'm not a terribly big fan of "broken" NPCs as love interests, since the thing always feels slightly sleazy. I wasn't a great fan of Neverwinter Nights 2 either as my favorite romance options weren't available and... ...those that were happened to be summarily killed off in the expansion. I make an exception for the Aribeth romance as, fundamentally, she's one of the strongest characters I think in the video game series. Albeit, she's got big gaping Epic Flaws. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-21-08, 11:58 AM | Heh, I liked Casavir, but his romance (and his character in general) felt very unfinished. From what I hear, the Elanee romance wasn't that satisfying either. And of course, tons of people were hoping for some other options (a few NPCs do have "false" romances that can never be realized), although that's nothing new. |
| Storm_Silverhand02-21-08, 04:19 PM | Heya, Heh, I liked Casavir, but his romance (and his character in general) felt very unfinished. From what I hear, the Elanee romance wasn't that satisfying either. And of course, tons of people were hoping for some other options (a few NPCs do have "false" romances that can never be realized), although that's nothing new. This was a problem with Obsidian. The lead designer, I think it was, basically said he didn't like romances, or didn't find them interesting... So the romance options were very limited. Having never finished NWN2 (not for lack of trying, either, mind you... The game just doesn't grab me, and I keep being distracted by my "alt-a-holism"), I can't really comment. Wish I knew how to doctor the game so I wasn't railroaded into no romance at all... that might have made it more interesting to play. |
| Charles Phipps02-21-08, 05:25 PM | I'm annoyed I couldn't PLAY NWN2 on my computer. Ugh. Stupid laptop bias. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-21-08, 06:26 PM | Heya, This was a problem with Obsidian. The lead designer, I think it was, basically said he didn't like romances, or didn't find them interesting... So the romance options were very limited. I'm aware of that, and I think it's disappointing. Obsidian could have at least hired a writer who liked romances, if they were going to put romances in at all. I think I'd prefer no romances rather than half-assed ones. |
| Charles Phipps02-22-08, 01:30 AM | FYI, I'm going with a 16th level version of Aribeth. I'm also noting that because she's 16th level and it's my Realms, Aribeth is widely hailed as one of the greatest heroes in Abeir-Toril. She's a terrifying figure to evil and one whose accomplished fairly legendary deeds. I think that easilly being "First amongst the Neverwinter Nine" is just one of her many accomplishments and she's hailed as a Living Saint amongst the Church of Tyr. |
| SmartPaladin02-22-08, 12:16 PM | I almost picked up NWN2: MotB yesterday (what? Moneys tight! Sue me.), but I put it back because really, it came down to food, or a PC game. Guess which one I went with? Oddly enough, I'm not surprised Charles. Even in NWN Aribeth was hailed as one of the greatest heroes in Neverwinter. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-22-08, 05:31 PM | Even in NWN Aribeth was hailed as one of the greatest heroes in Neverwinter. Indeed. Maybe someday I'll even figure out why. Kidding!:P |
| Zireael02-25-08, 02:44 AM | I don't think lvls are equal to fame. Take Drizzt. There are many warriors better mechanic-wise than him. And consorts with problems are not my idea of romancing... despite the fact Viconia was the BEST! |