| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| _Random_03-29-07, 06:12 PM | I really like Artemis' stories, but I have only read one that was about him. It wasn't even just him that it focused on either. The story was Empty Joys by R.A. Salvator, in the book Best of the Realms: Volume I. I would like to know more about him, and also about any books that are focused entirely on him (or have him as a main character!) Artemis must have a book about him, and his evil plotting :plotting:(or if Jarlaxle was correct, his life as a husband:love: ). |
| Infinitum03-29-07, 06:23 PM | The Witch King Trilogy. It focuses on him and Jarlaxle Baenre. Google it or look at your book store. |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 06:47 PM | Entreri appears in (off the top of my head): The Sell-Swords Trilogy Servant of the Shard Promise of the Witch-King Road of the Patriarch Most Drizzt Novels "That Curious Sword", from Realms of Shadow. |
| Steel General04-02-07, 10:46 AM | Doesn't he also appear in the "Double Diamond" series of books? |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 10:59 AM | Doesn't he also appear in the "Double Diamond" series of books? -I'm not sure. I believe that someone mentioned that he has a brief, cameo appearance. The Double Diamond Triangle Saga books are not considered canon, anymore, though, in any case. |
| _Random_04-02-07, 07:08 PM | Thanks Lord Karsus, Infinitum, and Steel General, I will check up on those books and read them with pleasure. P.S. Lord Karsus, you seem to have a lot of people who like you, hope I have the fortune of having you help me again sometime.:D |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 07:10 PM | P.S. Lord Karsus, you seem to have a lot of people who like you, hope I have the fortune of having you help me again sometime.:D -I am a generally well-liked guy. |
| redmagefish04-02-07, 07:56 PM | what was that about a artieasm (close right) getting raped at a young young by his uncle (weird) |
| ShadezofDis04-02-07, 10:20 PM | -I am a generally well-liked guy. And you're on here so much WotC should start charging rent ;) what was that about a artieasm (close right) getting raped at a young young by his uncle (weird) . . . umm. . . the thread title would supply you with the correct spelling of his name, Artemis (note: I do not know the spelling of most Realmsian people/places or things, usually I look them up, it makes things easier *g*) Anyhow, one of the "building blocks" of Artemis' personality is that he had a VERY abusive childhood (specifially physical, emotional and sexual abuse at the hands of his uncle, who sold him into slavery. . . oh, I'm a lil foggy on it all, take the specifics with a grain of salt), this childhood helped turn him into an obsessive control freak, which he did exceptionally well. |
| Lord Karsus04-03-07, 12:20 AM | And you're on here so much WotC should start charging rent ;) :rimshot: -Did I ever mention that I own your soul? ;) :cool: |
| Treymordin04-03-07, 01:30 AM | what was that about a artieasm (close right) getting raped at a young young by his uncle (weird) In what book was that revealed?:confused: :eek: |
| redmagefish04-03-07, 07:29 AM | :D |
| ShadezofDis04-03-07, 09:53 AM | In what book was that revealed?:confused: :eek: Hmmm. . . I'm not entirely sure. . . I think there's a bit about it in the "Realms of Infamity" short collection and it's hinted at in other books but I can't remember exactly. Anyhow, it's more hinted at, referenced and such, rather than stated straight out. :rimshot: -Did I ever mention that I own your soul? ;) :cool: What???? :shocked: I didn't see that in the contract! |
| Lord Karsus04-03-07, 09:50 PM | What???? :shocked: I didn't see that in the contract! -Yeah, but, don't worry. I don't do stupid things with my servants' souls. ;) |
| ShadezofDis04-03-07, 10:06 PM | -Yeah, but, don't worry. I don't do stupid things with my servants' souls. ;) :detect: oh yeah? Well, I guess I haven't actually read anything about you doing anything stupid (and before you {This being the classic "you" and not Lord Karsus} start, it wasn't stupid, it was slightly misinformed and incredibly arrogant) . . . Oh, I just had an epiphany, Karsus is much like Kaiser Soze. If your pickin up what I'm puttin down. Makes me feel pretty durn good about the job.:cool: |
| Lord Karsus04-03-07, 10:08 PM | Makes me feel pretty durn good about the job.:cool: -It is a very, very good job. |
| Critalondel04-04-07, 10:03 AM | Hmmm. . . I'm not entirely sure. . . I think there's a bit about it in the "Realms of Infamity" short collection and it's hinted at in other books but I can't remember exactly. Anyhow, it's more hinted at, referenced and such, rather than stated straight out. Correct, it's Realms of Infamy, in the sort story "The Third Level." The story itself is a pretty good one, about young Artemis growing up on the Calimshan streets, and getting himself into the Guild, working his way up the ranks, etc. |
| Selgaunt04-04-07, 01:13 PM | Her's where you can read about Artemis Entreri. Short Stories Realms of infamy - The Third Level Realms of Shadow - That Curious Sword Realms of ??? - Empty Joys Realms Of Dragons - Wickless in the Nether Novels The Sellswords Trilogy - Servant of the Shard - Promise of the Witch-King - Road of the Patriarch Paths of Darkness Trilogy - The Silent Blade Other novesl where Artemis makes an appearance... - Streams of Silver - The Halflings Gem - The Legacy - Starless Night |
| Ramenth04-04-07, 04:23 PM | His past/the abuse is spelled out pretty clearly in Road of the Patriarch as well. |
| Treymordin04-04-07, 09:40 PM | I guess that I am going to have to read that trilogy as well. |
| mithrilwombat04-04-07, 10:25 PM | And here I thought it was one of those "Boy named Sue" sort of things that made him so edgy. After all, Artemis is the name of the Greek goddess of sex, and how awkward is that? |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 10:50 PM | Artemis was actually a fierce virgin goddess. Very far from a sex goddess. |
| ted_the_mindflayer04-05-07, 12:29 AM | Artemis was actually a fierce virgin goddess. Very far from a sex goddess. Goddess of the hunt i believe, the greek goddess of sex was most likely Afrodite. Anyway my weeks not complete with out 1 Enteri thread but he still kicks ass. PS: Hey would anyone like to play a game where Enteri, Lord Soth and Straud team up to fight mithril hall what madness! LOL :D |
| Zandilar04-05-07, 01:04 AM | Heya, Goddess of the hunt i believe, the greek goddess of sex was most likely Afrodite. Anyway my weeks not complete with out 1 Enteri thread but he still kicks ass. PS: Hey would anyone like to play a game where Enteri, Lord Soth and Straud team up to fight mithril hall what madness! LOL :D Aphrodite (the ph is pronounced like an f). Artemis was the goddess of the moon and of the hunt, and she was extremely protective of her virginity (to the point of turning a man, who had the misfortune to see her bathing naked and the stupidity to stop and watch, into a stag to be hunted down and killed by his own hounds). She was the twin sister of Apollo, and was very concerned with women, particularly those who were pregnant or were giving birth. She was also one of the patrons, if not the primary one, of the Amazons. (All in all, if there was a lesbian/feminist deity among the Greek pantheon, it was Artemis (closely followed by Athena)). Despite that, though, Artemis is a unisex name, and it is quite legitimate for a male, if a touch odd (IMHO). |
| Treymordin04-05-07, 09:19 AM | I have never read or heard of a male named Artemis besies this one.:P |
| ShadezofDis04-05-07, 09:34 AM | I have never read or heard of a male named Artemis besies this one.:P Quick google search turned up this gem; http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Artemis The important part is the; "The boy's and girl's name Artemis" :) |
| Zandilar04-05-07, 09:41 PM | Heya, I have never read or heard of a male named Artemis besies this one.:P I hadn't either. But it's true. When I mentioned it to my mother, she made the comment that it was a legitimate name for a male. I looked it up, and sure it enough, it seems to be true. A number of baby name sites cite it as a unisex name, or list it for males, while others have it only as a female name. Artemis Fowl is another male with the name. (He's a character in a series of Children's books by Eoin Colfer.) |
| GothicDan04-05-07, 09:44 PM | I've actually known someone online with the name Artemis. He was a male. :) Also: Apollo. Mmmm... It's amusing that Apollo, 'the eternal kourous,' had some bi/homosexual tendencies, just as one could infer Artemis did... I really like that pair. |
| Critalondel04-06-07, 02:10 AM | Also: Apollo. Mmmm... It's amusing that Apollo, 'the eternal kourous,' had some bi/homosexual tendencies, just as one could infer Artemis did... I really like that pair. When you mention "Artemis" in this sentence, are you referring to Entreri? The character? Because I'd hardly call being molested a sign of "bi/homosexual tendencies," any more than a lesbian raped by a man is "bi/hetero" or something. |
| Zandilar04-06-07, 04:41 AM | Heya, When you mention "Artemis" in this sentence, are you referring to Entreri? The character? Because I'd hardly call being molested a sign of "bi/homosexual tendencies," any more than a lesbian raped by a man is "bi/hetero" or something. I am fairly certian he was talking about Artemis the goddess, since it was in the context of her being Apollo's twin. As for your other assertion... Being molested by a member of the same gender doesn't say anything at all about the molested person's sexuality. Being molested is not going to make someone gay, but by the same token it won't make someone straight either if they're not straight to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, when someone's sexuality is not explicitly spelled out, it's a good idea not to make any assumptions at all (ie: one way or another) about it. |
| ShadezofDis04-06-07, 08:17 AM | When you mention "Artemis" in this sentence, are you referring to Entreri? The character? Because I'd hardly call being molested a sign of "bi/homosexual tendencies," any more than a lesbian raped by a man is "bi/hetero" or something. While I don't know the "Secret, inner workings of Dan's Mind"*, I can assure you that Dan would NEVER claim that any forced act of sexual violence, in any way, shape or form, would be considered when speaking of one's sexuality. He most assuredly is speaking of the God and Goddess (and might even be extrapolating upon an implied link between nature {in a nature vs nurture type way} and sexuality). Zandilar, they said that, pretty much exactly "molestation != sexual preference". They were getting ready to be offended, not to be offensive (though pre-emptive offense is sometimes offensive, but that's another story *g*) *TM |
| Zandilar04-06-07, 09:44 AM | Heya, Zandilar, they said that, pretty much exactly "molestation != sexual preference". They were getting ready to be offended, not to be offensive (though pre-emptive offense is sometimes offensive, but that's another story *g*) Yes, he said that... He was saying "just because he was molested as a child doesn't mean he's gay!" with the unspoken implication that the only reason we might think that Artemis is gay is because of the molestation. That's what I was reacting to. |
| ShadezofDis04-06-07, 10:57 AM | Heya, Yes, he said that... He was saying "just because he was molested as a child doesn't mean he's gay!" with the unspoken implication that the only reason we might think that Artemis is gay is because of the molestation. That's what I was reacting to. I think you're reading a little into it, I think it's more of a matter of ignorance about the Greek Pantheon. (note: I had more to the post but I'm editing it due to being blunt, if anyone is interested in the "expanded" version of this post then I will PM it to you if you ask, I am sending it to Zandilar since I'm responding to her post specifically *g*) |
| Critalondel04-07-07, 01:43 AM | To clarify -- When I read the sentence, I was mentally linking up Apollo (a dude, with implied bi/homosexual tendencies) with Artemis (Entreri, another dude), and then wondering where the inferred bi/homosexual tendencies mentioned in the post were coming from. Instead of making the sibling link, I was making a gender link. I'm well aware I was making a mental link that might not've been the one the poster meant for people to make, which was why I was asking for clarification before it turned into an argument. The original sentence (in my opinion) could be read either way (Apollo and his sister, or Apollo and another male). I didn't think the poster was implying childhood molestation "makes you gay" or whatever, but I was afraid that's what the poster might have meant, and wanted clarification to make sure. But, anyways. If everyone else is pretty sure that the "Artemis" in that particular sentence meant the goddess, that's cool. I'll assume that's how it was intended, and be happy in agreement. :) |
| Zandilar04-07-07, 08:55 PM | Heya, But, anyways. If everyone else is pretty sure that the "Artemis" in that particular sentence meant the goddess, that's cool. I'll assume that's how it was intended, and be happy in agreement. :) Thanks for clarifying... :) I think the implication Dan was making was that Apollo seemed to have either homosexual or bisexual tendancies, and that there was some evidence that the goddess (Artemis) did as well. (Given by the very last bit of his post "I really like that pair.") |
| GothicDan04-08-07, 05:09 PM | Zandilar, my fellow fine non-traditionally-sexual friend, you are quite correct. ;) Just because modern American society would consider me a sexual deviant doesn't mean I approve of child molestation. Ew ew ew!!!! |
| Lord Karsus04-08-07, 06:21 PM | -You sexual deviant, you... |
| _Random_04-08-07, 07:06 PM | PS: Hey would anyone like to play a game where Enteri, Lord Soth and Straud team up to fight mithril hall what madness! LOL :D Isn't Lord Soth a character in the DragonLance world?:confused: He kills his master, Raistlin and Caramon's sister, if I am correct... :evillaugh Also, if I'm correct, he murdered his pegnant wife, and she cursed him to live on after death... |
| _Random_04-08-07, 07:17 PM | -Did I ever mention that I own your soul? ;) :cool: Don't mess :heehee with Lord Karsus! |
| Khellrendros04-08-07, 07:40 PM | Isn't Lord Soth a character in the DragonLance world?:confused: He kills his master, Raistlin and Caramon's sister, if I am correct... :evillaugh Also, if I'm correct, he murdered his pegnant wife, and she cursed him to live on after death... Well your right on the world. Mostly right on the killing his wife part. Though the part about Raistlin and Kitiara was Dalamar. Though Dalamar never actually killed Raistlin, I do give him points for trying though. |
| Treymordin04-08-07, 10:17 PM | He didnt try to kill Raistlin. |
| Lord Karsus04-08-07, 10:38 PM | Isn't Lord Soth a character in the DragonLance world?:confused: -He was. He was later sent into Ravenloft, and I think he is still among the "living" there. Don't mess :heehee with Lord Karsus! -Indeed. |
| Critalondel04-09-07, 02:17 AM | Zandilar, my fellow fine non-traditionally-sexual friend, you are quite correct. ;) Just because modern American society would consider me a sexual deviant doesn't mean I approve of child molestation. Ew ew ew!!!! For the record -- even if it turned out you did think that child molestation or other non-consensual encounters "counted" (for lack of a better term) when it came to judging someone's sexual orientation -- it was never my intent to imply that you approved of such activities, only that, perhaps, you misunderstood them. But, again, it sounds like the whole thing just came from me seeing one way a sentence could flow, and most folks (the writer of aforementioned sentence included) reading it a different way. No harm, no foul, I hope. |
| Zandilar04-09-07, 03:25 AM | Heya, For the record -- even if it turned out you did think that child molestation or other non-consensual encounters "counted" (for lack of a better term) when it came to judging someone's sexual orientation -- it was never my intent to imply that you approved of such activities, only that, perhaps, you misunderstood them. In the end, there may be other "clues" that might make a reader think that Artemis Entreri may not be straight* (subtext and the like). I personally don't know, since I've never really read Salvatore's Realms novels (I read the first three Drizzt novels, dipped in to the second trilogy, and haven't (and have no intention of) read(ing) any more), but there are quite a few fanfics out there, and since most of them seem to be slash, I can only conclude there is something there... It might simply be wishful thinking. * I make it a point to never assume a character's sexuality unless it's blatently stated somewhere either by the author or the character themself. That means I don't make any assumptions about characters that might appear straight. Most people would just assume that "appearing straight = being straight" because straight is the so called norm. |
| Critalondel04-09-07, 08:49 AM | but there are quite a few fanfics out there, and since most of them seem to be slash, I can only conclude there is something there... If there were really "something there" every time someone wrote some slash fic, everyone would be gay. |
| Philalexandros04-09-07, 11:01 AM | The Sellsword series of novels (and Silent Blade) have revealed about as much as I think we will ever come to know about "the Prime Assassin" where his emotional stability, past, and capacity for sexual activity are concerned. Throughout a series of novels, we have been treated to Artemis' POV regarding sexual activity. He engages in it, but apparently only in rather "spartna" moderation; it is apparently an activity that Artemis feels could result in a loss of discipline if indulged in too often. His stated partners are of a heterosexual variety, and apparently of the professional variety (courtesans, members of harems, etc.). "Promise of the Witch King" and "Road of the Patriarch" focus rather heavily on Jarlaxle's efforts to get Artemis to open up emotionally. A key part of this is Artemis' romance with a female half-elf mercenary who he comes to care for deeply. It doesn't end well, and leads to the calamitous end of that book. PS: the above was in no way an attempt to throw out an "Artemis is so NOT gay!" card. I'm just adding to the conversation. :) |
| Zandilar04-09-07, 08:14 PM | Heya, If there were really "something there" every time someone wrote some slash fic, everyone would be gay. As I said, in Artemis's case, I don't know. I also mentioned that it might be wishful thinking, as I think is the case in about 90% of slash. ;) @Philalexandros: Hmm teaches me, I should have read your post more fully (missed the PS)... Anyway, what I said still stands - you can't make any assumptions at all unless a character comes out and says something about their sexuality or until the author themself says something. You can't tell a person's sexuality just by their past history of relationships. Plenty of people who seem straight come out as something other than straight later in their lives. Personal experience with the coming out process tells me this. In the case of Artemis Entreri, I'm going to conceed that he is probably straight, since 99.9999...% of characters (give or take 0.1111...%)* in Forgotten Realms novels turn out to be straight (or at least in a heterosexual relationship, remember - can't assume). Mind you, the percentage of non-straight people in the Realms should be much higher than it is on Earth, given the fact that there is no shame stigma attached to being bisexual or homosexual, so naturally more people would feel happier being who they are without the need to pretend to be something they're not. * Taking into account the minimal subtext I occasionally spot, but might just be wishful thinking. |
| Philalexandros04-09-07, 10:19 PM | Zandilar, To be fair, though, RAS hasn't been shy about depicting characters with "alternative" sexual orientations--at least not in recent works. More importantly, and where this subject is concerned, of the supporting cast of characters in the Sellsword series, two were either homosexual or bisexual--and involved in a rather serious relationship. Given that, and given how central Entreri's own feelings, emotional attachments, and capacity for love were for the storyline, I would say we should go with what RAS gives us regarding Artemis. Feel free to check the spoilers below for some pretty key insights: Jarlaxle gifts Entreri with an enchanted flute during one of the Realms of... short stories leading up to this series. Unbeknownst to Artemis, the flute has been enchanted to allow him to unlock/confront his emotions, which he has been suppressing for years in order to evade the pain of his upbringing. Jarlaxle's motivation for this, IMHO, are not adequately explained. Entreri's emotional awakening leads him to open himself to the possibility of loving another person. It's a rough voyage at first, and Entreri's initial affections seem random. Ultimately, though, he falls rather hard. Tellingly, both of the initial targets of his attraction, as well the person for whom he ultimately feels love for, are female. |
| Lord Karsus04-09-07, 10:28 PM | To be fair, though, RAS hasn't been shy about depicting characters with "alternative" sexual orientations--at least not in recent works. More importantly, and where this subject is concerned, of the supporting cast of characters in the Sellsword series, two were either homosexual or bisexual--and involved in a rather serious relationship. -In the past, TSR wanted to stay away from gross violence and any kind of "over-the-top" sexuality. I recalled Ed Greenwood mentioning how quite a few scenes with a nude Storm Silverhand, or a nude Alustriel were edited out. WotC seems to have relaxed that position a bit recently, especially in Shadowbred, where characters are doing "cocaine" (mindsnuff) and having orgasms. |
| Philalexandros04-09-07, 10:35 PM | -In the past, TSR wanted to stay away from gross violence and any kind of "over-the-top" sexuality. I recalled Ed Greenwood mentioning how quite a few scenes with a nude Storm Silverhand, or a nude Alustriel were edited out. WotC seems to have relaxed that position a bit recently, especially in Shadowbred, where characters are doing "cocaine" (mindsnuff) and having orgasms. Unfortunately very true. I've read similar things at Candlekeep. It's nice to see more creative freedom in the newer works. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 11:07 PM | Of course, the same author still feels that there's little to no place for overt bisexuality/homosexuality in the Realms. However, that's a much larger and more personal step to take, and one that I don't think will be bridged in the near future. :( |
| Philalexandros04-09-07, 11:33 PM | Of course, the same author still feels that there's little to no place for overt bisexuality/homosexuality in the Realms. However, that's a much larger and more personal step to take, and one that I don't think will be bridged in the near future. :( I'm not sure I understand. Is this the author's stated opinion? I hope not. |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 12:47 AM | Actually, I won't go so far as to say anything concrete. I'll just say that he responded pretty negatively when the idea of showing actual male prostitutes of any kind was brought up in portrayals of Sune's churches; he seemed to stand by his opinion that a male presence (and as an extension, a homosexual presence, to a point) in such institutions in Faerun would be no more likely or 'acceptable' than they are in our own society. This happened in a Candlekeep scroll. I'm being purposefully touchy on that subject, because I really don't want to offend the author, who otherwise seems to be really good at what he does. But suffice it to say that he did not seem to 'jive with' the standards of Faerunian sexuality as set by Ed Greenwood. |
| Philalexandros04-10-07, 01:09 AM | Interesting. Thanks for the response, Dan. |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 01:17 AM | No problem. I do hope I didn't offend anyone with that. :) |
| Old Sage04-10-07, 01:32 AM | -He was. He was later sent into Ravenloft, and I think he is still among the "living" there.When Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman returned to TSR, there were reports of them saying that, as far as they were concerned, Soth never left Krynn for Ravenloft. To make their point, they even made Soth an "extra" in the novel Dragons of Summer Flame, released in 1995. This created a lot of (useless) confusion as to where Soth really is. The official word from Wizards of the Coast is that Soth definitely did enter Ravenloft after the events of the novel Test of the Twins. And he definitely returned to Krynn in the autumn of 752 BC, during the events of the novel Spectre of the Black Rose, written by James Lowder. The in-game reasons behind Soth's escape, however, are nebulous and open to reader interpretation. Many interpreted it as a consequence of the fact that Soth was no longer feeling imprisoned and the dark power decided to let go of their dull toy. Also, although Soth definitely left Ravenloft in 752 BC, it has not been definitively stated when he reappeared on Krynn. Time flows strangely in Ravenloft when compared to other worlds and Soth could easily have reappeared in Dargaard Keep mere moments after he left it. Since then Soth briefly appeared in other DRAGONLANCE novels before the authors of that setting eventually killed him off. In 3e RL products, you find reference to this character when the name "The Black Rose" is mentioned. I will also point out that Ravenloft Gazetteer IV hints that his soul may have found its way back into Ravenloft and is working for the cause of good [they don't call him "Soth", since the developers never made it clear to the authors whether or not the licensing agreement allowed them to refer to Soth by name]. |
| Old Sage04-10-07, 01:35 AM | But suffice it to say that he did not seem to 'jive with' the standards of Faerunian sexuality as set by Ed Greenwood.Indeed. From Ed - "In ‘my’ Realms, there’s no stigma attached to homosexual relationships, only to any sexual behaviour that involves exploiting children, and any sexual behaviour that involves force or coercion (please note: WILLINGLY undergoing pain or bondage doesn’t count)." |
| Zandilar04-10-07, 03:24 AM | Heya, Actually, I won't go so far as to say anything concrete. I'll just say that he responded pretty negatively when the idea of showing actual male prostitutes of any kind was brought up in portrayals of Sune's churches; he seemed to stand by his opinion that a male presence (and as an extension, a homosexual presence, to a point) in such institutions in Faerun would be no more likely or 'acceptable' than they are in our own society. This happened in a Candlekeep scroll. Actually, you know, I'd probably object to prostitutes of any kind in a portrayal of Sune's church. Sune is not the goddess of sex, she's the goddess of love. I would hope that most people would be past this sex = love = sex idea, sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. Prostitutes are about pleasure, not about love. You can love a prostitute and be loved by one, but they are not inherant representatives of love - you cannot simply pay one to love you. While their services might have a tenuous attachment to passion (which is a very broad category in and of itself, sexual passion is only one aspect of it), it's still not love. Now before you think that I have something against prostitutes, I don't. I personally think Sune gets sold short a lot of the time, because people write her off as "a bigger, more powerful Sharess". She is a much more interesting and intriguing deity, if only people could look at her portfolio and realise how incrediably broad it is. I find it quite a disappointment that Sune often seems to get overlooked - she's a greater deity, and yet many people still get her confused with Sharess. If prostitutes belong anywhere, IMHO, it's in a Church to the Grand Madame of Prostitutes herself, Sharess. Sune would be more likely to have Geisha like entertainers in her church, sex might be one of their services, but I'm sure they'd also provide things like poetry, beauty and love advice, match making services, and a whole truck load of other services associated with love, passion, and beauty besides sex. I'm being purposefully touchy on that subject, because I really don't want to offend the author, who otherwise seems to be really good at what he does. But suffice it to say that he did not seem to 'jive with' the standards of Faerunian sexuality as set by Ed Greenwood. Unfortunately, I don't think any Realms author does, Dan. @Philalexandros Interesting. :) However, it's still not definiative enough for me. (If something like that were definiative enough for me, and we ignore that Ed has said anything about her sexuality, I'd think Myrmeen Lhal was straight too, just from all we've seen written about her in novels, shorts, and source.) |
| Alfryn04-10-07, 07:27 AM | The reason people probably get confused about Sune is that her portfolio is Love, Beauty and Passion, so they tend to focus on the last one. Also in the first Cadderley book Salvatore seems to make the same mistake as the priestess of Sune seems far more a seductress irrespective of her feelings for a particular person - she just enjoys flirting with Cadderley and would certainly have gone further with him had he let her. (This is irrespective of her actions during the Chaos curse when of course everyone's actions are accentuated). With one of my characters I had her father (who was a Shadow Thief) get her to enroll in Sune's Church so she can better learn the art of seduction, and thus get information out of people via this method, because he erroneously assumes that basically that is all that Sune's Church is about. But it backfires on him because his daughter comes to truly believe what Sune is all about and so rejects her father's values, that is using sex to manipulate other people. Mind you I had another character make fun of her goddess on the grounds that she has it easy since her portfolio covers what comes naturally to most people and you have to admit that it could be quite easy for an outsider to the Church to be confused as to exactly what Sune stands for. |
| Lord Karsus04-10-07, 09:04 AM | If something like that were definiative enough for me, and we ignore that Ed has said anything about her sexuality, I'd think Myrmeen Lhal was straight too, just from all we've seen written about her in novels, shorts, and source.) -You mean, she's not? But...She was married. She has (had) male lovers. She has a daughter...:confused: |
| ShadezofDis04-10-07, 09:37 AM | Now before you think that I have something against prostitutes, I don't. I personally think Sune gets sold short a lot of the time, because people write her off as "a bigger, more powerful Sharess". She is a much more interesting and intriguing deity, if only people could look at her portfolio and realise how incrediably broad it is. I find it quite a disappointment that Sune often seems to get overlooked - she's a greater deity, and yet many people still get her confused with Sharess. I agree that Sune gets sold short, I've only really seen her portrayed as "romantic love" and almost never anything more "platonic" than that. If prostitutes belong anywhere, IMHO, it's in a Church to the Grand Madame of Prostitutes herself, Sharess. . . . prostitution belongs anywhere where supply meets demand. . . which. . . is pretty much everywhere :) (at least in my opinion) Sune would be more likely to have Geisha like entertainers in her church, sex might be one of their services, but I'm sure they'd also provide things like poetry, beauty and love advice, match making services, and a whole truck load of other services associated with love, passion, and beauty besides sex. All of this I see as perfectly valid and think that it should be portrayed more often, however, these things don't inhibit prostitution. :) |
| Zandilar04-10-07, 09:54 AM | Heya, -You mean, she's not? But...She was married. She has (had) male lovers. She has a daughter...:confused: Ed's words were pretty direct about her... lemme see if I can dig them up... *hops over to see if she can find what she's looking for* Here we go, straight out of Kuje's archives and in "full" context so we can see... Ed said on May 3, 2005... Alusair very rarely fights fists-to-fists with women, probably because she doesn't want to hurt or frighten someone who'll only be bewildered, who won't fight back (and therefore deprive her of any satisfactory outlet for her own anger), and who will probably only scratch and bite and pull hair in self-defense, if pushed to extremes (the sole exception is Myrmeen Lhal, who understands Alusair perfectly and WILL provide both the fighting and the sex; and yes, Myrmeen IS a true bisexual). This was part of a conversation sparked by a question I asked regarding Alusair on Candlekeep. Notice that Ed called her bisexual (which is what I said she was before in this thread). Bisexual means that one finds members of both genders attractive, and in general terms could easily settle with one or the other (and sometimes both at once)... However, bisexuals aren't inherantly polyamorous/swingers, which is a common misconception probably brought about because of their general invisibility in our society. This invisibility is due in a large part to the fact that a bisexual who is committed to an individual is assumed to be either heterosexual or homosexual depending on the gender of their partner in relation to their own. For example, a bisexual woman married to a man is still bisexual, no matter that the relationship she is currently in is heterosexual... Just because she has a male partner doesn't mean that she is not attracted to women. |
| Zandilar04-10-07, 10:10 AM | Heya, I agree that Sune gets sold short, I've only really seen her portrayed as "romantic love" and almost never anything more "platonic" than that. For some reason, people tend to associate her with the same kind of physical love and passion that Zandilar the Dancer once represented for the Yuirwood Elves. And you're absolutely right. Love is much more than the courtly, romantic love that is emphasised in Sune's description. A while ago, I tinkered around with the idea of switching Sune's alignment to NG, and changing her emphasis. Rather than being romantic love, romantic/sexual passion, and physical beauty - she would have been the goddess of all love (platonic, filial, romantic etc), and passion (of all kinds, not just physical/romantic passion - for example, feeling passionate about one's country, passionate about a hobby, passionate about the pursuit of one's job, etc), and all kinds of beauty (inner beauty, physical, natural, art, etc)... Just thinking about her like that... She would be as powerful as Mystra, if not more so... Because just as magic is in all things, so are love, beauty, and passion - especially when unrestricted to just those things concerning romance and sexuality. . . . prostitution belongs anywhere where supply meets demand. . . which. . . is pretty much everywhere :) (at least in my opinion) Well yes, of course that is true... What I should have said was "If prostitutes belong in any particular church, IMHO, it's in a Church of the Grand Madame of Prostitutes herself, Sharess." All of this I see as perfectly valid and think that it should be portrayed more often, however, these things don't inhibit prostitution. :) Well I did say the Sunite "geishas" would probably provide sex amongst their various services... But it wouldn't be the most important thing. Their job wouldn't be just to provide sexual satisfaction, because that hasn't got anything to do with love or beauty at all... just passion. Their task would be to provide beauty, inspire love, and inflame passion. |
| ShadezofDis04-10-07, 10:28 AM | And you're absolutely right. Love is much more than the courtly, romantic love that is emphasised in Sune's description. A while ago, I tinkered around with the idea of switching Sune's alignment to NG, and changing her emphasis. Rather than being romantic love, romantic/sexual passion, and physical beauty - she would have been the goddess of all love (platonic, filial, romantic etc), and passion (of all kinds, not just physical/romantic passion - for example, feeling passionate about one's country, passionate about a hobby, passionate about the pursuit of one's job, etc), and all kinds of beauty (inner beauty, physical, natural, art, etc)... Just thinking about her like that... She would be as powerful as Mystra, if not more so... Because just as magic is in all things, so are love, beauty, and passion - especially when unrestricted to just those things concerning romance and sexuality. That's my take on Sune's church. :) Well yes, of course that is true... What I should have said was "If prostitutes belong in any particular church, IMHO, it's in a Church of the Grand Madame of Prostitutes herself, Sharess." Ah, then we are in full agreement here :) Well I did say the Sunite "geishas" would probably provide sex amongst their various services... But it wouldn't be the most important thing. Their job wouldn't be just to provide sexual satisfaction, because that hasn't got anything to do with love or beauty at all... just passion. Their task would be to provide beauty, inspire love, and inflame passion. Indeed, IMO it might not even be accurate to say it's "prostitution" rather than "worship" with a donation to the church. Which is to say it's similar but not the same. However I think that distinction would be lost on most :) So my basic stance is that; It is a misrepresentation to say that these churchs engage in prostitution (note: milage may vary, you can very well have a Sunite or Sharessite church that sells sex but that would be more of a cultural deal than a religious deal, IMO). There may be some sweet, sweet lovin (of the physical kind) and a donation to the church but these aren't mutually inclusive things (ie. you can have one without the other!) This does not mean that if you are lookin for some booty you just stroll down to one of these churches, this means that if engaging a worshiper in sexual activity will spread love (by the priest/priestess' perception, they might be wrong) then they will go ahead and have a blast with it. |
| Lord Karsus04-10-07, 11:03 AM | Ed's words were pretty direct about her... -Ah, gotcha- she's a switch hitter. I thought that you were alluding to the fact that she hit for the other team completely, which threw me off there. ;) |
| Zandilar04-10-07, 09:13 PM | Heya, So my basic stance is that; It is a misrepresentation to say that these churchs engage in prostitution (note: milage may vary, you can very well have a Sunite or Sharessite church that sells sex but that would be more of a cultural deal than a religious deal, IMO). There may be some sweet, sweet lovin (of the physical kind) and a donation to the church but these aren't mutually inclusive things (ie. you can have one without the other!) This does not mean that if you are lookin for some booty you just stroll down to one of these churches, this means that if engaging a worshiper in sexual activity will spread love (by the priest/priestess' perception, they might be wrong) then they will go ahead and have a blast with it. My perception of the Church of Sharess is that she has few actual temples, beyond the major one in Calimport (if I'm wrong, I'll be happy to be corrected!). However, there are shrines all over Faerun - particularly in Waterdeep and in Cormyr (in Cormyr, cats are revered - so Sharess would be a natural deity there) - located in actual working festhalls. Perhaps a percentage of the take is donated to the shrine, but as a whole, you would pay for sex there. But this is way off topic for this thread, so I'll leave it there. :) |
| _Random_04-13-07, 06:39 PM | Well your right on the world. Mostly right on the killing his wife part. Though the part about Raistlin and Kitiara was Dalamar. Though Dalamar never actually killed Raistlin, I do give him points for trying though. I meant that Kitiara was Raistin and Caramon's sister, not that Lord Soth killed (or tried killing) Raistlin. By the way, what happened to Raistlin after he got away from the Abyss? |
| Old Sage04-13-07, 08:26 PM | During the Summer of Chaos, Raistlin left the Abyss but at the price of his magic. Left without magic, he aided Palin during the Chaos War. With the defeat of Chaos, Raistlin left with the gods, however rumors are abound that he is somehow tied into events surrounding the War of Souls. These rumors proved to be somewhat accurate. Raistlin returned with the gods during the War of Souls and aided them in their plans to thwart Takhisis. Again the mage aided Krynn and then he joined his brother as they progressed together into the afterlife. |
| ShadezofDis04-14-07, 07:58 AM | During the Summer of Chaos, Raistlin left the Abyss but at the price of his magic. Left without magic, he aided Palin during the Chaos War. With the defeat of Chaos, Raistlin left with the gods, however rumors are abound that he is somehow tied into events surrounding the War of Souls. These rumors proved to be somewhat accurate. Raistlin returned with the gods during the War of Souls and aided them in their plans to thwart Takhisis. Again the mage aided Krynn and then he joined his brother as they progressed together into the afterlife. And Tas found Flint under that darned tree (or at least I think it was War of Souls that had that) and I cried. No joke :p (Test of the Twins is where it all started for myself) |