Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SATA 01-29-08, 01:41 AM	First of all, don't know if is the right place to make this thread, not quite sure if they apply as people or monsters. And I know that there are several threads about this but I searched and couldn't find the exact answer to my questions, which are: Are they canon? How many are left (if any)? Can anyone tell me the stats of the Bhaalspawn template or send it to me like a pm? Thanks in advance.
Mad_Mickelson 01-29-08, 01:50 AM	-Are you referring to the games or the books (I'm told there is only a story line difference), I'm only familiar with the bg series, as of the end of tob there were only 2 (3 if u include Sarevok) u and Imoen. -Mind you all this happened during 2nd edition not 3.5 -Yup there canon -As for templates cant help u there Lord Karsus should be able to give you a definative answer that is beyond reproach
Reneshat 01-29-08, 02:16 AM	There was a book series about Bhaalspawn, which I hear was awful. I don't remember coming across anything in any of the gaming books, so my guess would be there is no template, or if there is it was in an online supplement or Dragon magazine.
Iliyan 01-29-08, 06:03 AM	well you could add the half-fiend template to each of em, works just fine
Old Sage 01-29-08, 09:52 AM	The Bhaalspawn are canon. They've been referenced in numerous 3e sources -- such as Lost Empires of Faerūn for example, and Power of Faerūn. There was an official Bhaalspawn template for 3e presented in DRAGON #288.
SATA 01-29-08, 11:40 AM	Thanks all for the replies.
Bonzai 01-29-08, 12:39 PM	The template can be found here: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...-Templates.pdf
SATA 01-29-08, 02:30 PM	Thanks again.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 06:57 PM	It's not a good template, in my opinion. It's not true to the spirit of the Bhaalspawn saga. There's no definite answer to the question of "how many Bhaalspawn are left?" Also, the Bhaalspawn are not half-fiends!
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 09:47 PM	Lord Karsus should be able to give you a definative answer that is beyond reproach -That's the spirit. Keep it up! :thumbsup:
SATA 01-30-08, 01:03 AM	It's not a good template, in my opinion. It's not true to the spirit of the Bhaalspawn saga. There's no definite answer to the question of "how many Bhaalspawn are left?" Also, the Bhaalspawn are not half-fiends! I agree, IMHO it's terrible. But a friend, a player is nagging about it and want to try it out, so ask me to at least give it a chance and research it a bit.
Lord Karsus 01-30-08, 12:17 PM	But a friend, a player is nagging about it and want to try it out, so ask me to at least give it a chance and research it a bit. -You can also ask Ody how he feels about it, as he's had first-hand experience using the template.
SATA 01-30-08, 05:19 PM	-You can also ask Ody how he feels about it, as he's had first-hand experience using the template. Ody???:confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 05:45 PM	Ody???:confused: The "Saraph of Karsus", or something like that.:) He's a poster here.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:21 AM	The "Saraph of Karsus", or something like that.:) He's a poster here. -Yes, Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus . He's one of my Hands.
SATA 01-31-08, 12:24 AM	...OK got it.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 12:26 PM	-Yes, Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus . He's one of my Hands. Stop scaring the poor man with your delusions of grandeur karsus:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 12:59 PM	Stop scaring the poor man with your delusions of grandeur karsus:rolleyes: -Delusions nothing? He asked to be, and he is part of the poster organization known as the Hands of Karsus. As are you, might I remind you. ;) -I'm thinking, if I get enough Hands, to go to war with Gleemax. Damn that Gleemax.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:34 PM	-Delusions nothing? He asked to be, and he is part of the poster organization known as the Hands of Karsus. As are you, might I remind you. ;) -I'm thinking, if I get enough Hands, to go to war with Gleemax. Damn that Gleemax. Yes, yes, I still place my undying loyalty to the great Karsus.:rolleyes: I was not speaking of Ody, I was speaking of SATA. Did you not notice the "..." before his comment.:cool:
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:45 PM	Yes, yes, I still place my undying loyalty to the great Karsus.:rolleyes: -Good. I'll just disregard that ':rolleyes:', because it must not mean anything. ;)
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:47 PM	-Good. I'll just disregard that ':rolleyes:', because it must not mean anything. ;) Yes, of course not, good, good...
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:58 PM	Yes, of course not, good, good... -Speaking of Ody, he's the real one I have to watch out for. Him and all of his Puerto Rican girls, and trying to trick me out of money by moving decimal points around...I'm on to you, Ody...:detect:
XHereticX 02-01-08, 04:03 PM	-Speaking of Ody, he's the real one I have to watch out for. Him and all of his Puerto Rican girls, and trying to trick me out of money by moving decimal points around...I'm on to you, Ody...:detect: Newsflash: He just stole your entire retirement fund and is fleeing to Krynn to purchase an army of kender to attack you.;)
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:48 AM	Newsflash: He just stole your entire retirement fund and is fleeing to Krynn to purchase an army of kender to attack you.;) -I don't have a retirement fund. I don't need to retire...Uh oh. Looks like that was the rest of you Hands' retirement investment. Better catch him.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:47 PM	-I don't have a retirement fund. I don't need to retire...Uh oh. Looks like that was the rest of you Hands' retirement investment. Better catch him. I don't have one, I've already spent all my money on a personal harem in Elysium.:P
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:02 PM	I don't have one, I've already spent all my money on a personal harem in Elysium.:P -That is a retirement fund, isn't it? :cool:
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:04 PM	-That is a retirement fund, isn't it? :cool: Spent, oh don't tell me he stole my..... Ody, your dead:mad:
Zireael 02-04-08, 03:34 AM	I think the template IS good. Certainly gives off the hell of Sarevok or Protagonist.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:17 PM	But both the games and even the novels left the impression (on me) that each Bhaalspawn was unique. They didn't all have the same powers, hence my dislike for the template.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:33 PM	They didn't all have the same powers, hence my dislike for the template. -That can also be explained by: "Choose X amount of abilities from the following list".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:44 PM	Right, but by the time certain Bhaalspawn are epic level (as they are in the story), they would have all the advantages and disadvantages. I don't know, I just personally find the template hard to accept. But that's just me.
SATA 02-04-08, 12:52 PM	They are unique and that, at least I, found it a nice thing, and like LK said, according to my research, they have to choose their abilities from a table according to their level but with a minimum of 2 abilities and maximum 11, they have 27 abilities options, some advantages and some penalties. What I found awful is the fact that The Bhaalspawns were or are able to be of any alignment, for me that don't make any sense and if the plan was that every one of them at the end died so the Bhaal's spark within them were released so it could merge and resurrect him, then having some of good alignment is a terrible idea 'cuz at the end they succeed and stop the plan. So my conclusion is that there was no intention to resurrect Bhaal, just the desire to tell a story, make some profit and calm a little bit the hardcore fans of Bhaal that cry for him and want him back at all cost.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 02:41 PM	What I found awful is the fact that The Bhaalspawns were or are able to be of any alignment, for me that don't make any sense and if the plan was that every one of them at the end died so the Bhaal's spark within them were released so it could merge and resurrect him, then having some of good alignment is a terrible idea 'cuz at the end they succeed and stop the plan. I think the plan was to take over the survivor regardless of what their alignment was (my interpretation, obviously).
SATA 02-04-08, 03:04 PM	The thing is that if there are some good aligned, they won't kill each other, they will join forces to stop the plan, as happened kind of. According to my research there are 3, and the plan is not very specific, 'cuz some high priest of Bhaal wanted or tried to gain all the sparks and that way became a deity, also there is the option of Bhaal resurrecting in the sole survivor body, also the one I said, all Bhaalspawn dead and the sparks gathered so Bhaal could resurrect, anyway, who knows, it will always be a mystery or maybe it was intentionally so it could be use again this plot when needed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 07:23 PM	The plan might have been formed around the idea that evil people are naturally going to be the ones who would gain the most power, and any good Bhaalspawn would fall quickly (and it wouldn't surprise me if an evil god thought that way, after all).
SATA 02-04-08, 09:22 PM	Not quite but anyway doesn't matter, it's over or so it seems.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 10:27 AM	Not quite but anyway doesn't matter, it's over or so it seems. Well, I was giving my opinion and musings. That's perfectly valid.
SATA 02-05-08, 01:45 PM	Well, I was giving my opinion and musings. That's perfectly valid. I know and I agree with most of it. What I meant was that the Bhaalspawn story is over or seems to be, so there's little point in a discussion about it and also the story isn't specific enough for arguments, there are some and valid points of view about it and one can't contradict the other 'cuz any of them is possible, at least that was what I found out in my research, I could be wrong.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-05-08, 03:20 PM	Some one mention my name? :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 03:46 PM	I know and I agree with most of it. What I meant was that the Bhaalspawn story is over or seems to be, so there's little point in a discussion about it and also the story isn't specific enough for arguments, there are some and valid points of view about it and one can't contradict the other 'cuz any of them is possible, at least that was what I found out in my research, I could be wrong. True, all true.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-05-08, 03:59 PM	-You can also ask Ody how he feels about it, as he's had first-hand experience using the template. Well I played with it And I really don't like it. there's no 27, there, are like 15 advantages and 12 penalties and every time you take a power you have to take a penalties and trust me the penalties are really REALLY crappy you know just gimme a sec.... Bhaalspawn (a dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, outsider or shapechanger that is infused with a spark of the Deity of Murder’s evil) (DR288 p100) Look like the normal base creature. Becomes an Outsider. Natural Armor +1 CR +2 Receives Advantages & Penalties equal to ½HD+1 (min 2, max 11) Advantages: - Bull’s Strength, 3/day - Darkness, 3/day - Death Knell, 3/day - Endurance, 3/day - Cure Moderate Wounds, 3/day - Scare, 3/day - Cold Resistance 5 - Fire Resistance 5 - Damage Reduction 5/silver - Immune to poison - Heals 3hp per hour as long as he/she has at least 1hp. - Holy Smite (if good) or Unholy Blight (if evil), 1/day. - No longer takes penalties from aging & receives a +10 bonus on saves vs. death effects. - Can turn his/her own blood into Deathblade poison, 1/day. - Able to take the form of ‘The Slayer’ as a Standard Action. Gains +6 Natural armor, +8 Enhancement bonus to Strength, and a 1d10 claw attack, but takes 1 Constitution damage each round. Penalties: - Reckless: When below 50%, receive a –1 morale penalty to attacks & AC, until healed to over 50% hp. - Blood Thirsty: Must make a Will save vs. DC 20 to do subdual damage or not attack the maximum number of opponents. - At 0hp or less, goes into a coma until brought to 50% hp. - Loose 2 points of Wisdom (non-recoverable). - Loose 2 points of Charisma (non-recoverable). - Demon’s Blood: Blood is dark ichor. If the Bhaalspawn is bleeding, it can be smelled by Evil Outsiders. - Undead within 60’ are always aware of the Bhaalspawn’s location. - Infernal Temper: Becomes more hostile. If taunted, humiliated, or misses a skill roll by more than 5, the Bhaalspawn must make a Will save vs. DC (10 + amount skill roll was missed by) or receive a –1 Morale on all skill checks until one succeeds by more than 5. - Must murder someone who is not hostile to the Bhaalspawn every 13 days or loose 1 Wisdom per day until the murder is completed (at which point all Wisdom returns). - Nightmares: Each time the Bhaalspawn rests, he/she must make a Will save vs. DC 10 + 1 per day the nightmares were resisted. On a failure, roll a d4 to determine the effect until the next rest: 1) –2 Morale penalty on attacks, 2) –1 Morale penalty on saves, 3) no natural healing during the rest, 4) no effect. - Everyone who meets the Bhaalspawn initially distrusts him. - The Bhaalspawn is treated as Evil by all spells & effects (including Holy weapons). If actually evil, the Bhaalspawn takes damage from Holy Water. Now, bear in mind that you will get 11 of these penalties out of 12 and depending on the class there's stuff tat's just simply unaseptable (like a cleric or paladin with the wis and cha penalties or imagine a fighter or barbarians taking penalties in ATK and AC after taking loosing 50% HP. and so on...)EDIT: In low levels th bhaalspawns will differ from each other because well choose different powers, but as you advance in levels.....
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-05-08, 04:18 PM	Ooops
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 04:48 PM	Now, bear in mind that you will get 11 of these penalties out of 12 and depending on the class there's stuff tat's just simply unaseptable (like a cleric or paladin with the wis and cha penalties or imagine a fighter or barbarians taking penalties in ATK and AC after taking loosing 50% HP. and so on...) -The negatives certainly do seem to overshadow the benefits.
SATA 02-05-08, 05:09 PM	Thanks Ody. There are things I don't quite get, like I didn't see where it specify that you have to take an advantage or penalty, I thought you have to choose, like by rolling dices or something, but that wasn't there either I just thought about it 'cuz like I said, for me it seems incomplete, also, I couldn't find the caster level of certain abilities, like if you get, darkness. I thought that every Bhaalspawn was different 'cuz they all get different advantages and penalties and for me that was an appeal.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 05:39 PM	-The negatives certainly do seem to overshadow the benefits. Indeed, a Bhaalspawn PC is probably better off having no special powers at all than having this template.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 06:12 PM	Indeed, a Bhaalspawn PC is probably better off having no special powers at all than having this template. -Unless they are a Chaotic Evil, somewhat stupid and dull-witted lower-level Barbarian/Fighter type, it seems.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-06-08, 01:20 PM	-Unless they are a Chaotic Evil, somewhat stupid and dull-witted lower-level Barbarian/Fighter type, it seems. Exactly! @ SATA: I din't put the whole thing there but i'll edit it for you... Done:D
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 01:48 PM	Exactly! -Well, at least we now have something they'd be good at. :cool:
SATA 02-06-08, 04:03 PM	Thanks Ody. But I still don't see, 'cuz maybe I'm getting blind or something (actually I do need glasses but anyway), where do it specify the caster level for certain abilities like darkness, bull's strength, and the likes. Also, if you have to take an advantage AND penalty, and there are 15 advantages and 12 penalties and you can only have a maximum of 11 abilities, how you choose? Thats why I thought that the PC with the template, at the moment of choosing the abilities, have to roll some dices 'cuz also I thought that there were 27 in total, meaning that at the moment of getting abilities it was an advantage OR penalty. That would have made each unique and like I said, that was an appeal for me, now seems I was wrong so the template for ME is worst than I originally thought.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 04:10 PM	But I still don't see, 'cuz maybe I'm getting blind or something (actually I do need glasses but anyway), where do it specify the caster level for certain abilities like darkness, bull's strength, and the likes. -The caster level is probably your character's level. That's how a lot of those things work.
SATA 02-06-08, 05:56 PM	I know, I fix that when I found the template... your HD as Sorcerer. That was my solution, but I mention it to point out that at least I found the template incomplete. But anyway, no one seems to like it and my PC who was interested is not anymore.
Meldread 02-11-08, 01:01 PM	I think some people here are really not understanding the underlying thoughts behind Bhaal's actions. Bhaal's intention was to eventually be resurrected, and in an attempt to do that he fathered as many children as he could before he died during the Time of Troubles. He foresaw his own death. To facilitate this resurrection, he turned to one of his most trusted high priestesses. The goal was to have his children slaughtered, one by one, or in large numbers, and each death the essence that was fathered in them by Bhaal would be held within the high priestess. She was the vessel. Although it isn't clear how exactly she would have brought him back, it is likely it would have involved her death. In the BG Games she betrayed Bhaal and was attempting to take his place. She facilitated the rounding up of his children, she created the Five (five of the strongest Bhaalspawn) - and led them to believe that they would essentially rule under Bhaal. She had every intention of killing them as well, however. You did not need to be evil to be a Bhaalspawn. The fact of the matter is, as the PC found out in the BG Series, it was inevitable to kill your brothers and sisters. If you did not kill them in self defense, they would kill you. You were either the hunter or the hunted. The PC, regardless of alignment, was both. Throughout the story the PC was both attacked by Bhaalspawn and hunted them down. If you were evil you hunted them to release their essence, you wanted to ascend to your father's throne. If you were good you hunted them to prevent them from ascending to your father's throne. Either way, you didn't have a choice. If you did nothing, if you sat on the side lines, you would have eventually been hunted down and slain. In the BG Series, most of the Bhaalspawn were slain by the Five, but you hunted down and slew the Five yourself. Finally, you faced the High Priestess herself, and slew her - and that is when you were given the choice to absorb your father's essence or relinquish it from your soul and become truly mortal, free from the prophecy. In cannon, the Bhaalspawn choose to relinquish his portion of Bhaal’s essence and become truly mortal. Additionally, in the BG Games, you were saved by your step father who rescued you as an infant child. After the PC was born he was to be slaughtered, and your step father managed to prevent them from slaughtering you - the PC, though others were not as lucky.
SATA 02-11-08, 05:37 PM	Thank you Meldread. At least in my case, the issue isn't if I did understand it or not, is about taste, and my personal view on the matter is that I don't like it and for me it could have been a lot more. As I said, it seems that The Bhaalspawn saga was just meant for the sake of telling a story and calm down the fans of Bhaal and never had the intention of truly bring back Bhaal to life. And I'm not saying that every back-up plan that a deity have to resurrect should work, is a good thing that some don't.
Meldread 02-12-08, 02:17 AM	SATA my post wasn't directed entirely at you, but too many different people in the thread. More precisely it was directed toward those who were saying that it was difficult to imagine a good aligned Bhaalspawn. In the PC Games, a good aligned PC also had the option to ascend. Bhaal's portfolio was death (though it was retconed in 3rd to be murder). So it was a rather neutral portfolio - Bhaal just focused on the darker side of death. The reason he wasn't resurrected is up for speculation, but I have two explanations that I think strike at the heart of the most likely reason. First, the novels (which are cannon) were based directly off the video games. The novels sucked, but the video games were very well done. Bhaal could have been resurrected in the novels, but TSR had a policy that evil must never prosper or win. Because of this TSR policy Bhaal never really had a chance of coming back - it would have been a victory for him. Bane was brought back with 3rd Edition under Wizards. Additionally, the TSR policy haunts us to this day and is largely responsible for feelings that the setting isn't dark enough. It is also likely directly tied to the dislike of Mystra and her Chosen as well as the hatred of Cyric (for his stupidity) and many other evil organizations and deities. So, in large part, I suppose that TSR's policy on evil is also responsible for some of the more drastic changes being made to the 4E Realm's to make it "darker". From what I understand 4E will be more morally ambiguous, and it looks to me as if they are trying to bring the setting more in line with contemporary fantasy; which goes beyond the typical absolute good vs absolute evil Tokien-esk world.
SATA 02-12-08, 02:33 AM	I know Meldread, I just wanted to explain myself since I started the thread, also thank you again for the clarification on the matter, at least I wasn't too clear about it. Also, I was the one that said something about allowing a Bhaalspawn to be of good aligned, maybe I was the only one, anyway my reason for that is that it create an interesting scenario and is different and enjoyable but is putting some odds against you, I understand the randomness and the chaotic nature but still, anyway I'm just rambling... I guess I'm too NE.:P
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-12-08, 08:12 AM	SATA my post wasn't directed entirely at you, but too many different people in the thread. More precisely it was directed toward those who were saying that it was difficult to imagine a good aligned Bhaalspawn. In the PC Games, a good aligned PC also had the option to ascend. Bhaal's portfolio was death (though it was retconed in 3rd to be murder). So it was a rather neutral portfolio - Bhaal just focused on the darker side of death. The reason he wasn't resurrected is up for speculation, but I have two explanations that I think strike at the heart of the most likely reason. First, the novels (which are cannon) were based directly off the video games. The novels sucked, but the video games were very well done. Bhaal could have been resurrected in the novels, but TSR had a policy that evil must never prosper or win. Because of this TSR policy Bhaal never really had a chance of coming back - it would have been a victory for him. Bane was brought back with 3rd Edition under Wizards. Additionally, the TSR policy haunts us to this day and is largely responsible for feelings that the setting isn't dark enough. It is also likely directly tied to the dislike of Mystra and her Chosen as well as the hatred of Cyric (for his stupidity) and many other evil organizations and deities. So, in large part, I suppose that TSR's policy on evil is also responsible for some of the more drastic changes being made to the 4E Realm's to make it "darker". From what I understand 4E will be more morally ambiguous, and it looks to me as if they are trying to bring the setting more in line with contemporary fantasy; which goes beyond the typical absolute good vs absolute evil Tokien-esk world. The thing is that the template is somewhat made for Evil Characters. I"m not saying that you have to be Evil to use it but take a look at my exipirience with it for example... I'm a LG Human (fe)male Paladin 10/Fist of Raziel(Torm) 4, now I have 8 penalties and IF I ever reach 20 lv I'll have 10 penalties out of 11 If you are a Pal its sucks because you'll loose WIS and CHA because there no way u can get the "- Must murder someone who is not hostile to the Bhaalspawn every 13 days or loose 1 Wisdom per day until the murder" penalty. If you are a Evil Fighter/Barbarian is less of a pain Vs. a Paladin/Cleric(good or not)/druid and so on....
Meldread 02-12-08, 09:37 AM	The whole Template thing really doesn't fit with Bhaalspawn. Bhaalspawn are just normal everyday people, for the most part, and most of them only have very minor portions of Bhaal's essence. In fact, I'd argue that most Bhaalspawn probably didn't even have PC class levels. The way I would handle the Bhaalspawn is the way it was handled in the BG Games. Throughout your journey, as you sleep at night, you occasionally have a 'dream vision'. The dream vision is the inner Bhaal's essence, trying to manipulate and control you, trying to lead you down the desired path. If you are evil, it isn't so hard to resist - you may already be doing its will. If you are good, then you can struggle against it. The dream vision may take you to scenarios that could happen in the future, but more often than not it would deal with the things that happened in the past. It could also be more abstract - for example one dream vision was simply a river of blood. If you were evil, you struggled to control the river and realized that you had some power over it. If you were good, you struggled against it, as the river seemed to pull you along - against your will - toward some unknown place. Dreams like that I would imagine would be frequent. Occasionally, after those dreams, based upon PC actions in the past and actions taken within the dream vision, I'd reward the PC with special supernatural abilities that align with their character. If they are a paladin and they have been slipping toward evil, I'd give him an appropriate power. If they are a Paladin, and they are maintaining their good alignment, I'd give him an appropriate power for that. In general, you do not awaken with Bhaalspawn powers. They manifest over time, grow in power, as you begin to understand and control your essence - for both good and evil purposes. The Bhaal's essence should be treated as an inner power, that acts partly as a twisted spiritual guide that is used to get to know yourself - and your place within the Cosmos.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-12-08, 03:53 PM	The whole Template thing really doesn't fit with Bhaalspawn. I agree lorewise is not an issue being LG and a "Bhaalspawn" but the Template is really unusable unless you are a CE grunt.:cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 06:41 PM	Additionally, in the BG Games, you were saved by your step father who rescued you as an infant child. After the PC was born he was to be slaughtered, and your step father managed to prevent them from slaughtering you - the PC, though others were not as lucky. Meldread, I totally agree with the spirit of your post, but I want to point out that some of what we learn in ToB regarding the PC's origins is a bit wonky--for example, we are told that the PC's mother was impregnated during the Time of Troubles, which would put the PC in his/her early teens rather than young adulthood by the time of the game.
Meldread 02-13-08, 12:13 AM	Yes, you are correct Rinonalyrna. I believe all the Bhaalspawn, at the start of the game are roughly 18-25 in age. However, I am going to assume that anyone using Bhaalspawn will account for that fact - and it just means that the events that take place during the games happen later. Everyone is just a little bit older. (Or, conversely, you are playing during an earlier time period.) It is a minor issue. Of course, if you are going to play out the whole Bhaalspawn campaign, then there is no need to pay attention to cannon at all. You can pull some key characters from the game (Sarevok for example), and just roll with things as you go. I believe that the only critical character you'd need to have is Melissan, or a character who fills a similar position. A DM should be able to add, subtract, ignore and create as many characters to fill in the plot as desired. I don't think it would be wise for a DM to try and run a campaign that sticks closely to cannon, it would be too restrictive and I do not think it would translate very well.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 12:28 AM	I believe that the only critical character you'd need to have is Melissan, or a character who fills a similar position. -What'd he/she/it do?
Meldread 02-13-08, 07:20 AM	Melissan was the High Priestess Bhaal entrusted to facilitate his resurrection. She was given access to the Throne of Blood (his divine Realm) and it was there that his essence returned as his children were slain. It was never specified how she was to bring about his resurrection, but it appeared that she was acting as a vessel of sorts. If I had to imagine how it would have turned out, considering that Bhaal was the god of death she likely would have had to preformed some type of ritual suicide. (And upon her death Bhaal would have returned.) Melissan pulled many of the strings of Bhaal's plan together. She masqueraded as a protector of Bhaalspawn, someone who cared for them deeply and wanted to protect them from persecution. That is how the PC first met her - doing just that. In reality, of course, that was a lie. She brought together the Five strongest Bhaalspawn (known simply as the Five). They knew who she was and her true identity, and she led them to believe that they were the ones the Prophecy spoke of, and that upon Bhaal's return they would rule at his feet as his lieutenants. However, first it was important to deal with the weaker Bhaalspawn - mostly commoners - so she herded them like cattle to Saradush. It was there that Yaga-Shura, a Fire Giant Bhaalspawn (and member of the Five), began to lay siege to the city. The Bhaalspawn were essentially trapped within, unable to escape, and only the PC had a method and means of getting in and out. (The PC's power had advanced to a point where his essence was able to forge a pocket plane. A place where his essence was "preparing" him for what was to come. It was a training ground.) In the end, all of the Bhaalspawn in Saradush were slaughtered, releasing their essence. The PC then had to defeat Yaga-Shura, which was accomplished. Unknown to each other Melissan had begun to play the Five against one another. She intended to slay every single Bhaalspawn through whatever means necessary. However, in the end - for a number of reasons that depended on the character - the PC managed to slay all of the Five. Finally, in the end, the PC was returned to the Pocket Plane and was prepared for the final confrontation. The PC was prepared to enter his Father's Divine Realm - the Throne of Blood - and face Melissan in a one on one confrontation. By this point the PC was beyond epic in power (Elminster admitted that he had no chance of defeating the PC), and Melissan herself was more or less the equivalent of a Demi-Goddess. Melissan had no intention of resurrecting Bhaal, but rather replacing him herself. She betrayed Bhaal as she betrayed the Five and all of Bhaal's Children. The PC was the most powerful Bhaalspawn left and went up against the usurper of his father's essence in an epic battle that went on... and... on... and on... Finally, the Gods "decreed" that Melissan was defeated. Her mortal body struggled to hold onto Bhaal's Essence and the PC was victorious. She was immortal and could not die through normal means (for obvious reasons), but she was finished off by the "Gods" (but I would assume it was Ao who was watching and being referred to there). The PC was then given the choice - relinquish the tainted essence of Bhaal, and what remained of Bhaal's essence would taken and hidden away. Bhaal would never return. Or the PC could take Bhaal's place. Taking Bhaal's place was not necessarily an evil aligned act - as Bhaal was the god of death, you need not be evil to hold that portfolio. Cannon wise, the PC chose to relinquish his essence... and that was that. The PC was allowed to leave behind the Throne of Blood, which was destroyed, and live out the rest of his days as a mortal free of prophecy and divine machinations. So, in the end… Melissan played a critical role in the Bhaalspawn Saga. It could not have happened without her pulling the strings.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:34 AM	Melissan was the High Priestess Bhaal entrusted to facilitate his resurrection. She was given access to the Throne of Blood (his divine Realm) and it was there that his essence returned as his children were slain. -Interesting, that Bhaal's deific realm survived him being slain, unlike Dweomerheart, or Ziggaraxus (The Untheric Pantheon) So, in the end Melissan played a critical role in the Bhaalspawn Saga. It could not have happened without her pulling the strings. -Well, looks like I don't need to play those games/read those books. :)
Meldread 02-13-08, 09:28 AM	-Interesting, that Bhaal's deific realm survived him being slain, unlike Dweomerheart, or Ziggaraxus (The Untheric Pantheon) Well, a few things. First I think the Untheric Pantheon's Divine Realm began to fade and wasn't destroyed. Second, Bhaal had an advantage that most of the others you named did not. He foresaw his own death. Just before the Time of Troubles Bhaal had been severely weakened via his machinations in the Moonshaes, and when he foresaw his own death during the Time of Troubles, he put a plan into action. It's likely that he gave Melissan control over his Divine Realm, linking her to it and had all his ducks in a row before he went down. I guess you could consider her the Steward of the Throne of Blood - keeping the seat warm until the Lord of Murder could return to claim it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 01:49 PM	-Well, looks like I don't need to play those games/read those books. :) I would recommend the games--they were a lot of fun. Of course, that's a matter of taste. From what I know of you I don't think you would enjoy the novels.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 01:53 PM	I would recommend the games--they were a lot of fun. Of course, that's a matter of taste. From what I know of you I don't think you would enjoy the novels. -I have Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, and I installed it on my computer a long time ago, but I grew discouraged, as I didn't understand the 2e ruleset the game used. I still have it, but never bothered enough to reinstall it, though I still don't know very much about 2e rules.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 01:55 PM	I didn't know anything about D&D when I started playing the first BG game, but that didn't stop me from enjoying it.:) Give it another try, I say.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 01:57 PM	I didn't know anything about D&D when I started playing the first BG game, but that didn't stop me from enjoying it.:) Give it another try, I say. -I'll get around to it eventually, I guess. :)
Meldread 02-14-08, 03:10 AM	I agree with Rinonalyrna. I've played through the BG Series (BGI, TotSC, BGII, ToB) five or six times. I've never really 'got' the 2e rules, I just cheated. I played for the story and characters. :P Actually, it was the BG games that got me interested in D&D and the Forgotten Realms. It was an awesome epic story.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 01:42 PM	Indeed. And if anyone is stuck on the rules or game mechanics (or anything else in the game), I can probably help. Tons of other people can help, too.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 02:32 PM	Indeed. And if anyone is stuck on the rules or game mechanics (or anything else in the game), I can probably help. Tons of other people can help, too. -I'll get around to it. I promise.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 03:18 PM	Heh! You don't have to promise.:) Only play it if you feel like playing it.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 11:16 PM	I've played a character with the Bhaalspawn template. My DM insisted on picking which penalties I recieved. I also was not allowed to choose that ability where you get a strength bonus, natural armor, and a claw attack. The character actually ended up being weaker than the other PCs. This was at lower level play. The template may work better at higher levels.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-20-08, 09:19 AM	I disagree, the lower te levels the less penalties you have, Barb 1 with the "slayer" atribute :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-20-08, 08:08 PM	I've played a character with the Bhaalspawn template. My DM insisted on picking which penalties I recieved. I also was not allowed to choose that ability where you get a strength bonus, natural armor, and a claw attack. That was sooo nice of the DM to do that to you. Even on top of playing a template which isn't that great to begin with (IMO, of course), the DM wouldn't even let you develop it as you wanted to.:rolleyes:
Zireael 02-25-08, 03:00 AM	But think of the game, you couldn't really be a Slayer till Irenicus captured and tortured you. And Imoen never got to it so that DM was quite right... Slayer was kinda overpowered, no matter if 2 e or 3 ed.
Alleran 02-25-08, 07:38 AM	And Imoen never got to it David Gaider (one of the chief programmers for BGII and ToB) once rewrote the final battle of ToB to make it more epic in scope, and released it unofficially over the internet. In that module (called "Ascension", by the way), Imoen did at one point gain access to the Slayer form.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 12:57 PM	But think of the game, you couldn't really be a Slayer till Irenicus captured and tortured you. And Imoen never got to it so that DM was quite right... Slayer was kinda overpowered, no matter if 2 e or 3 ed. If you're going to use a template that is hardly based on the concept of Bhaalspawn as presented in the game (as surprising as that was, considering Dave Gaider made it--in whole or in part), you shouldn't restrict its development according to what happens in the game, either.
Alleran 02-26-08, 12:34 AM	If you're going to use a template that is hardly based on the concept of Bhaalspawn as presented in the game (as surprising as that was, considering Dave Gaider made it--in whole or in part), you shouldn't restrict its development according to what happens in the game, either. Gaider said it was an unofficial addition, but one that he felt was what the end to the whole Bhaalspawn saga should have been like. I'd highly recommend downloading it, if you're a BG fan. :) *looks fondly at his extensive list of installed mods for BGII* It boosted all the Five to... rather high levels of power, though, so unless you know the game inside out, or abuse cheat codes to Dweomerheart and back, it might be rather difficult. Yaga-Shura, for example, was given a 99% resistance to pretty much anything and everything you care to name, and Illasera became one of the most irritating/frustrating opponents I've ever faced in the BG games (short of the original Demogorgon, who was just plain nasty - the one that eventually made it into the game was a very much weakened form).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 01:53 PM	Gaider said it was an unofficial addition, but one that he felt was what the end to the whole Bhaalspawn saga should have been like. I'd highly recommend downloading it, if you're a BG fan. :) I was talking about the Bhaalspawn template that was published in Dragon magazine, not the unofficial "Ascension" mod. By the way, I am aware of that mod and have read about it, and from what I read I never had any particular interest in playing it. I found ToB to be pretty satisfying as it was.
Alleran 02-26-08, 10:46 PM	I was talking about the Bhaalspawn template that was published in Dragon magazine, not the unofficial "Ascension" mod. Ah. My mistake. :) By the way, I am aware of that mod and have read about it, and from what I read I never had any particular interest in playing it. I found ToB to be pretty satisfying as it was. I preferred it, since otherwise, I kept running into the problem of Yaga-Shura's Fire Giant lair being tougher than the final battle, which just seemed wrong to me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:32 AM	I preferred it, since otherwise, I kept running into the problem of Yaga-Shura's Fire Giant lair being tougher than the final battle, which just seemed wrong to me. Heh, well, I'm glad you enjoyed it then.:)
Zireael 02-27-08, 02:31 PM	I didn't say the template isn't based on the Bhaalspawn look in the game - on the contrary, it allows you to make them more different from each other. And that was also shown in the game. Imoen, protagonist, Sarevok and the Five each had distinct and personal abilities.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 06:54 PM	I still don't think ideas behind the template match up with the ideas behind the Bhaalspawn in the game, or in the novels for that matter.