Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blade_Shadow 08-08-07, 12:54 PM	what are some bladesingers that reside in or did reside in the realms and what would their stats be?
MerrikCale 08-08-07, 10:23 PM	I would check out the novel titled, oddly enough, Bladesinger.
GothicDan 08-08-07, 10:32 PM	If you want weird permutations of Bladesingers, of course.
Dimensional_Drifter 08-08-07, 10:39 PM	Is a bladesinger argument coming? I'll say that some on these boards have strong opinions regarding bladesingers... such as: no half-elf bladesingers...
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 11:20 PM	-Off the top of my head, I can think of three Bladesingers: Josidiah Starym Maestro Taegan Taen Aelrindel Faelyn
Elven Avenger 08-08-07, 11:27 PM	Shaniria Alenuath, one of the most famous bladesingers in Evermeet. You can read about her in the novel, Evermeet Island of Elves.
GothicDan 08-08-07, 11:27 PM	Is a bladesinger argument coming? I'll say that some on these boards have strong opinions regarding bladesingers... such as: no half-elf bladesingers... Those who DON'T have strong opinions are those who are the real danger to the Realms, as far as I'm concerned. ;) I'd rather have an intelligent debate with someone I respect about the possibility of half-Elven bladesingers than a bunch of people who were just "okay, whatever" about it. But that's the Sun Elf in me: pick your path and defend it. Be proud of it.
Galad 08-09-07, 01:57 AM	Shaniria Alenuath, one of the most famous bladesingers in Evermeet. You can read about her in the novel, Evermeet Island of Elves. Didn't she die killing the circle of High Mages in said book?
Finglas Leaflock 08-09-07, 09:05 AM	We don't really know--the scene "fades to black" just as she's about to attack, IIRC, and she's thinking there's no way she'll survive against that many enemies. But her fate is never actually stated in the Evermeet novel.
creyzi4zb12 08-09-07, 09:47 AM	Were they taken from the idea on that novel "Swordsinger?" or was the novel taken from them?
Suin Bahhar 08-09-07, 08:14 PM	Huh?
Steropes 08-10-07, 04:56 AM	There is an avariel bladesinger Taegan Nightwind in The year of Rogue Dragons series.
MerrikCale 08-10-07, 09:48 PM	-Off the top of my head, I can think of three Bladesingers: Josidiah Starym Maestro Taegan Taen Aelrindel Faelyn isn't that 5?
MerrikCale 08-10-07, 09:49 PM	If you want weird permutations of Bladesingers, of course. well sure, there is that
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 12:07 AM	isn't that 5? -Are you questioning me!? :ahem: -In all seriousness, I only thought of the top three off of the top of my head, but when I opened Bladesinger to get the correct way to spell Taen, I added the latter two on the list. -Also, please note that Taen the Half-Elven and Maestro Taegan Nightwind don't really deserve to be Bladesingers.
MerrikCale 08-11-07, 09:07 AM	Also, please note that Taen the Half-Elven and Maestro Taegan Nightwind don't really deserve to be Bladesingers. now now. I kind of liked the Bladesinger novel
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 06:12 PM	now now. I kind of liked the Bladesinger novel -That still doesn't change the fact that neither deserved to be a Bladesinger. If I had to choose one to become a Bladesinger, I'd choose Taen, though. It wasn't his fault that he was only born Half-Elven. Maestro Taegan, however, turned his back on his heritage. That, to me, is much worse.
shadowninja05 08-11-07, 08:06 PM	-That still doesn't change the fact that neither deserved to be a Bladesinger. If I had to choose one to become a Bladesinger, I'd choose Taen, though. It wasn't his fault that he was only born Half-Elven. Maestro Taegan, however, turned his back on his heritage. That, to me, is much worse. Well, he eventually came to realize that his people played a major role in liberating the ancient people of Faerun from the rule of tyrant dragons; got to give some credit from redeeming himself a bit ;)
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 10:09 PM	Well, he eventually came to realize that his people played a major role in liberating the ancient people of Faerun from the rule of tyrant dragons; got to give some credit from redeeming himself a bit ;) -Which is basically the equivalent of abandoning your family to "strike it rich" on your own, and then returning to get your share when someone dies.
Steropes 08-12-07, 03:01 AM	--Maestro Taegan, however, turned his back on his heritage. That, to me, is much worse. Now, you shouldn't be so hard on someone who was in the passion of youth. It is normal, even to elven, to have identity crice in when you approach adulthood (250-360 with elves)... For elves, it means act like human.
Lord Karsus 08-12-07, 11:34 PM	Now, you shouldn't be so hard on someone who was in the passion of youth. It is normal, even to elven, to have identity crice in when you approach adulthood (250-360 with elves)... For elves, it means act like human. -Not being able to control your emotions is a deadly weakness.
Dark Wizard 08-13-07, 10:50 PM	What was the name of the bladesinger in The Bladesinger's Lesson from Realm of the Elves. For a relatively iconic class concept, there are a surprising lack of iconic bladesingers.
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 11:03 PM	What was the name of the bladesinger in The Bladesinger's Lesson from Realm of the Elves. -Daried Morvaeril. For a relatively iconic class concept, there are a surprising lack of iconic bladesingers. -Well, look at the motley crew that has been assembled. Of all of the Bladesingers mentioned, almost half of them don't appreciate it.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 01:29 AM	And there's also the fact that Maestro turned his back on an Avariel culture unlike any that's ever been described before. Savages living in tree villages? Sounds more like Wood Elves with wings...
Suin Bahhar 08-14-07, 07:54 AM	Avariel have had their days of power. Should'nt they stay very low profie with their settlements because of Dragons? Concealed treetop villages make some sense to me. I guess that bladesinging is a streneous and difficult path that even strongwilled elves have difficulty becoming glorious heroes. They meditate on the weave and practice swordplay allmost all daylong... and send young elves to persue the adventurous paths as they stoically perform their duties on defensive patrols.
Lord Karsus 08-14-07, 09:43 AM	...and send young elves to persue the adventurous paths as they stoically perform their duties on defensive patrols. -Nothing says that Bladesingers serve defensive purposes only. The duties of a Bladesinger vary from settlement to settlement, from Bladesinger "troupe" to Bladesinger "troupe".
Diffan 08-14-07, 04:07 PM	-Also, please note that Taen the Half-Elven and Maestro Taegan Nightwind don't really deserve to be Bladesingers. -That still doesn't change the fact that neither deserved to be a Bladesinger. If I had to choose one to become a Bladesinger, I'd choose Taen, though. It wasn't his fault that he was only born Half-Elven. Maestro Taegan, however, turned his back on his heritage. That, to me, is much worse. Why don't they deserve to become bladesinger? Also, if one is a bladesinger and then turnes from his heritage or some such, don't they just become evil bladesingers?
Suin Bahhar 08-14-07, 04:18 PM	Yeah, like bladesingers who end up following Cyric somehow :P
Green Elven Vampire 08-14-07, 04:23 PM	Shoot me now!
Nisstyrethegreat 08-14-07, 05:06 PM	Tagen (spellieng) decided to renew his belief of his people because he realized the great things they had done indefending the citadel in the last book. in the end he was heading of to visit his family or clan or something like that. if he did not deserve the class then, he might now. also i understand that a bladesinger needs to have elven blood in him, but it is just a spellsword with a higher prestige in elven communities.
Lord Karsus 08-14-07, 06:41 PM	Why don't they deserve to become bladesinger? -I am under the belief that nothing but pure, full-blooded Elves deserve to be Bladesingers, a very prestigious position in Elven society. Tael was a Half-Elf, and thus, I disliked his being penned in as a Bladesinger. Maestro Nightwind turned his back on his heritage, and thus, I disliked his being penned in as a Bladesinger, in a "Son? I have no son!" kind of way. Also, if one is a bladesinger and then turnes from his heritage or some such, don't they just become evil bladesingers? -They become...nothing. Without a heritage, what are you? -In all seriousness, if a Bladesinger chooses to become evil, absolutely nothing happens. Perhaps he/she may get banished from his/her particular settlement, and/or imprisoned (the worst punishments for a Sun and Moon Elf, respectivley), but nothing actually changes within the Elf. He/she can continue to use his/her Bladesinging abilities. Tagen (spellieng) decided to renew his belief of his people because he realized the great things they had done indefending the citadel in the last book. in the end he was heading of to visit his family or clan or something like that. if he did not deserve the class then, he might now. -Like I said earlier, that's like leaving your family to strike it rich on your own, only to come back once you find out that they won the lottery, and are now involved in power real estate in the Northeast. also i understand that a bladesinger needs to have elven blood in him, but it is just a spellsword with a higher prestige in elven communities. -I only have the most rudimentary understanding of what a Spellsword is, but Bladesingers are not Spellswords.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 08:54 PM	Avariel have had their days of power. Should'nt they stay very low profie with their settlements because of Dragons? Concealed treetop villages make some sense to me. Avariels are, first of all, dangerously claustrophobic. Even villages in thick treetops would be incredibly disturbing to them. Secondly, he described his village, quite literally, on par with the Wood/Wild Elves in terms of apparent culture, use of magic/technology, and style of dress. You don't have to dress like a farmer and live in Iowa to live in concealment.
Dark Wizard 08-14-07, 09:25 PM	-Daried Morvaeril. Thanks, I was drawing a blank on that one. -Well, look at the motley crew that has been assembled. Of all of the Bladesingers mentioned, almost half of them don't appreciate it. Maybe it's time to change that. :plotting:
Diffan 08-14-07, 09:40 PM	-I am under the belief that nothing but pure, full-blooded Elves deserve to be Bladesingers, a very prestigious position in Elven society. Tael was a Half-Elf, and thus, I disliked his being penned in as a Bladesinger. Maestro Nightwind turned his back on his heritage, and thus, I disliked his being penned in as a Bladesinger, in a "Son? I have no son!" kind of way. Taen tried to be a bladesinger and in the end became a suprisingly good one. But the whole of his society in Avaelearean basically opposed it and only because his father was First Hilt was he even allowed to train as a bladesinger. Look at what hardships he faced not only because he was half-elven, but because of the prestigous status he attempted to aquire and all he got for it was crap from everyone in the entire community save his father. While I understand your view as half-elves not being bladesingers, Taen went through a hell of a lot of grief to become one. Maybe that should be a prereq. for the PrC for half-elves? :) -I only have the most rudimentary understanding of what a Spellsword is, but Bladesingers are not Spellswords. Your right, spellswords channel their spells effects through his sword, much like a Duskblade does, wears heavy armor, doesn't have any of the good flavor that comes with a Bladesinger and for the most part is a crappy PrC with a 5/10 spellcasting ratio. Blech!:yuck:
MerrikCale 08-14-07, 11:40 PM	-I am under the belief that nothing but pure, full-blooded Elves deserve to be Bladesingers, a very prestigious position in Elven society. elves are snobs
Green Elven Vampire 08-15-07, 12:46 AM	Actually there is an elite group of elven Spellswords (known as Spellblades) called "The Company of the Cold Hand" based out of Evereska. And they are pretty darn wicked fierce. I'd say Spellswords (spellblades) is a awesome PrC indeed! You can read about them in the RoTaW trilogy.
SmartPaladin 08-15-07, 01:26 AM	-I am under the belief that nothing but pure, full-blooded Elves deserve to be Bladesingers, a very prestigious position in Elven society. Tael was a Half-Elf, and thus, I disliked his being penned in as a Bladesinger. Maestro Nightwind turned his back on his heritage, and thus, I disliked his being penned in as a Bladesinger, in a "Son? I have no son!" kind of way. Isn't this almost the same belief that caused not just Teal, but most Half Elves so much grief? Not to sound cruel, but there's a small part of me that is almost over joyed to see Elven pride get the better of their common sense. In a prefect world, anyone with enough Elven blood, and who showed skill in the art. Deserves the right to be taught it. Not teaching Drow I can easily understand, as well as Half Drow, but for them I fill a small amount of pity. Like I do for most half breeds who are shunned through their whole lives. I guess it's easy to scoff at a half breeds hopes and dreams for a better life, a life where their pure blood kin look at them with pride. Yes, as a matter of fact, Bladesinger did strike a cord with me. And as a Paladin, I found not just how Teal was treated unjust, but also his trail. In a way, I can understand fierce elven pride. But the more I see their pride make some of them more and more like their dark elven brothers and sisters, the more I just want to turn my back on the fair folk, and leave them to their fate. And that thought honestly saddens me. I used to hold a great love for the Elven race as a whole, but over time. I've seem to run into more and more bitter Elves. In all of the handbooks and everything, they don't really seem that bad, it just isn't until you to some of the books, that you find them to be just as nasty as most humans. And I already have no love for any humans. Okay, I think my own prejudices are starting to show. So I'll just end my post at that. Good evening everyone.
GothicDan 08-15-07, 11:45 AM	Elves are better. Enough said. ;) This is one novel I will never even try to touch. That's saying something, since I at least bought the first Last Mythal one.
MerrikCale 08-15-07, 11:49 AM	This is one novel I will never even try to touch. That's saying something, since I at least bought the first Last Mythal one. the bladesinger novel?
MarkHall 08-15-07, 11:52 AM	I think it is highly unlikely that a half-elf would be taught bladesinging, unless they had a parent (or other close, immediate relative) who was a teacher of it.
GothicDan 08-15-07, 11:54 AM	Yes, Merrik. :)
MerrikCale 08-15-07, 11:55 AM	I think it is highly unlikely that a half-elf would be taught bladesinging, unless they had a parent (or other close, immediate relative) who was a teacher of it. there was a specific reason the half-elf in that novel underwent training in bladesinging. he also received a lot of flack for it
MarkHall 08-15-07, 01:35 PM	Haven't read a lot of the novels. I've read the first Moonshae Trilogy, the Last Mythal Trilogy and Realms of the Elves (those are the only ones I own); also, the Dark Elf Trilogy (once) and the Avatar Trilogy (once). So I write from a game-book perspective.
SmartPaladin 08-15-07, 01:50 PM	Elves are better. Enough said. ;) This is one novel I will never even try to touch. That's saying something, since I at least bought the first Last Mythal one. I'll just put another mark down for Elven arrogance- I mean pride, thank you. :P Eh, pick up Bladesinger, or don't pick it up. A side from the main character, the only thing I really liked about it was the fact that it was based in Rashemen. I love that place.
Mordayn 08-16-07, 08:09 AM	Once played in a campaign where one of the other players played a half-elven bladesinger (and also a bard!). he was thaught the art in secrecy from his mother, and did his best to hide his abilities from any elf he encountered. In the end he was discovered and he and his mother got into a lot of trouble (espescially with a small group of eldreth veluthraa elitists that wanted to kill them both). As far as I know he is still roaming the realms in disguise hiding from the elves.
SmartPaladin 08-16-07, 12:00 PM	Stupid elitists... Where's an overpowered Monk or Paladin when you need one to teach them humility? Granted depending on who's playing the Paladin, they could probably use some humility too... But that's something else all together.
MarkHall 08-16-07, 04:56 PM	Stupid elitists... Where's an overpowered Monk or Paladin when you need one to teach them humility? Granted depending on who's playing the Paladin, they could probably use some humility too... But that's something else all together. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/379045382_af00e8e2f5.jpg
SmartPaladin 08-16-07, 05:32 PM	Oddly enough... I probably would risk it. :P Nice picture man. :D I kept toying around with the idea of a Elven monk, I kept getting the image of him/her walking into a room for of Drow, smacking them all around. And telling them that he/she feels nothing but pity for them. Unlikely? Yes. But a cool image? Oh yes. :evillaugh
MarkHall 08-16-07, 06:49 PM	One thing I did was come up with a feat which allowed you to include other weapons in your "Monk Fighting Style". Elven monks should have long swords.
SmartPaladin 08-16-07, 08:37 PM	There's a feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that lets you do that. It's called Whirling Steel Strike. Every time I think of it, I keep thinking of kong-fu movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. :P We are so off topic now, it's not even funny. :P
MarkHall 08-16-07, 09:41 PM	Yeah, I just called mine "Weapon Kata", or something like that. It let you use a weapon as one of your monk weapons.
Lord Karsus 08-16-07, 10:52 PM	http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/379045382_af00e8e2f5.jpg -Aurra Sing? What's she doing here!? You can read about them in the RoTaW trilogy. -Actually, you can't, since that class/PrC (Whatever it is- I have no idea) didn't exist when the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy was published. elves are snobs -So they've been called. Taen tried to be a bladesinger and in the end became a suprisingly good one. -Or so he thought in his mind. While I understand your view as half-elves not being bladesingers, Taen went through a hell of a lot of grief to become one. Maybe that should be a prereq. for the PrC for half-elves? :) -He suffered? And? -This goes for D&D, and the actual world, but not every individual is "suited" for everything. Drow should not be able to be Lawful Good Paladins of Corellon Larethian. Idiot football players, who run around unchecked and, every so often, cause dire problems for a variety of different people, should not be in colleges/universities. This might be a bit controversial, but Whites should not belong to the Black Panthers, and Blacks should not belong to the Klu Klux Klan. -People need to learn that just because they exist doesn't mean that they are entitled. Maybe it's time to change that. :plotting: -Planning to burn 'em all at the stake? Elves are better. Enough said. ;) -Exactly. It's as simple as that.
Dark Wizard 08-16-07, 11:13 PM	-This goes for D&D, and the actual world, but not every individual is "suited" for everything. Drow should not be able to be Lawful Good Paladins of Corellon Larethian. Idiot football players, who run around unchecked and, every so often, cause dire problems for a variety of different people, should not be in colleges/universities. This might be a bit controversial, but Whites should not belong to the Black Panthers, and Blacks should not belong to the Klu Klux Klan. Oddly the idea of a Drow Paladin (standard LG one) of Corellon technically has more points against it than the other examples. -Planning to burn 'em all at the stake? Is that the go ahead to launch the Bladesinger Crusade?
SmartPaladin 08-16-07, 11:50 PM	-This goes for D&D, and the actual world, but not every individual is "suited" for everything. Drow should not be able to be Lawful Good Paladins of Corellon Larethian. Idiot football players, who run around unchecked and, every so often, cause dire problems for a variety of different people, should not be in colleges/universities. This might be a bit controversial, but Whites should not belong to the Black Panthers, and Blacks should not belong to the Klu Klux Klan. I'm trying to fallow your logic... But I can't seem to shake the note of pride and arrogance I hear in my head when I read your posts... Granted, when talking about LG Drow Paladin's. I can swallow a LG Drow Paladin of Hoar far easier then Corellon Larethian. Though out of all the Elven Deities, the only ones I can stomach are Labelas Enoreth, and Sehanine Moonbow. -People need to learn that just because they exist doesn't mean that they are entitled. We're not all entitled to peace and happiness? Should I go fall on my sword then? I have a question for you however, Lord Karsus. We all know how you feel about Half-Elves being Bladesinger's (I'd honestly have better luck talking a stonewall into going for it), I wanna know how you feel about Half-Elves taking up a few of the other "Pure Elf" class. Yes, Elven High Mage is safe from the Half-Elven "taint". But what about Arcane Archer, or any of the other classes a Half Elf is able to take as well? I honestly want to know why you feel a Half Elf can't be a Bladesinger. Because if it comes down to blood, then... I donno... I'm at a lost. All I can feel is pity.
Diffan 08-17-07, 07:41 AM	- Idiot football players, who run around unchecked and, every so often, cause dire problems for a variety of different people, should not be in colleges/universities. Is this the whole, 'nerd vs. jock' cliche that I always hear from a lot of DnD people again?! :rolleyes: I played football in high school, hell was even a captain of the team, played in college too. I also was in a 'Frat' :eek:. But I still played DnD, magic, video games, blogged (for a short time mind) and did all that geeky stuff as well. I guess maybe i'm special and that I am suited and entitled to such things. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-17-07, 10:17 AM	Both my monk characters are petite elven women--one a gold elf, the other drow. :) They are tough. And truly, they are elves, not humans who look like elves. Regarding bladesingers: I prefer them as full-elves only, personally. But I not against some variation if it makes for a good story. I didn't care much at all for the Bladesinger novel, but not because the bladesinger was a half-elf.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-17-07, 10:19 AM	I played football in high school, hell was even a captain of the team, played in college too. I also was in a 'Frat' :eek:. But I still played DnD, magic, video games, blogged (for a short time mind) and did all that geeky stuff as well. I guess maybe i'm special and that I am suited and entitled to such things. :P Heh--I'm a female gamer who loves the FR and roleplaying games, yet I'm also a "girly-girl" who is into shopping, shoes, clothes, and makeup.:)
dragonheart 08-17-07, 06:17 PM	Heh--I'm a female gamer who loves the FR and roleplaying games, yet I'm also a "girly-girl" who is into shopping, shoes, clothes, and makeup.:) THat I could guess from the icon :D Sadly It really is arragonce, pride and elitism to the point of evil in my book to deny the possibility of Half elven bladesingers/high elven mages/coronals of Myth Drannor. essentially every disaster that has befallen the elven race since they came to Toril 25,000 years ago has been the direct result of such pride and arrogance. As the lady and Diffan have pointed out none of us are really "typecast". as for some of the other "impossibilities" there actually were a very few white black panthers (no none of them got busted or killed to my knowledge but they did exist) and even a few blacks (or given the times perhaps I should say "colored") who were passing for white and joined the klan - have you got a better way to to keep the questions away from you in that situation? Think of the nonpurebreds with racial PRcs as Corellon's way of gently trying to make the elves review thier prejudices and step away from their arrogance and pride and into a mindset that will allow them to retain the best of their culture as they move into a world equal or dominated by humans (which is the reality they face). ANyone for a modification of the bladesinger that is a ranger/sorceror Half elf from the depths of the Yuirwood?
Suin Bahhar 08-17-07, 06:50 PM	Great idea! Half-Elven Bladesinger substitution level (2nd level of Prc) Yuirian Feybladesong Prerequisites: Half-elf of the Yuirwood, exotic weapon proficiency (twobladedsword) Benefit: Half-elves of the Yuirwood are masters of the twobladed sword. The bladesingers of Yuir make use of this tradition by blending bladesong defence with aggresive strikes from their whirling doubleblades. When wielding or holding a twobladed sword the Half-elf can still apply their bladesong ac bonus as if wielding a rapier or longsword and having nothing in the other. When in light armor or lighter and unemcumbered they are considered as having two weaponfighting feat. Replaces: Bonus feat at second level
MerrikCale 08-17-07, 09:27 PM	Heh--I'm a female gamer who loves the FR and roleplaying games, yet I'm also a "girly-girl" who is into shopping, shoes, clothes, and makeup.:) heck if you like baseball and marvel comics you could be the perfect woman
GothicDan 08-17-07, 09:59 PM	Is this the whole, 'nerd vs. jock' cliche that I always hear from a lot of DnD people again?! I played football in high school, hell was even a captain of the team, played in college too. I also was in a 'Frat' . But I still played DnD, magic, video games, blogged (for a short time mind) and did all that geeky stuff as well. I guess maybe i'm special and that I am suited and entitled to such things. I'm a vain guy in a national fraternity, and while I do play D&D and am a massive nerve, I do not think that one person (or a minority) dispels the base root of stereotypes. Some stereotypes are oversimplified, but from a purely neurological standpoint, certain peoples' personalities are more suited towards certain goals and desires in life. I'm a huge proponent of Evolutionary Psychology and the like. I really have a pet peeve when people try to use "Well I.... [whatever]" to go against an established fact/archetype/stereotype. From a purely statistical and psychological point of view, I don't give a damn. That's what's called "anecdotal evidence," and it's so be avoided by anyone employing remotely scientific methods of deduction at all costs.
Lord Karsus 08-18-07, 12:02 AM	heck if you like baseball and marvel comics you could be the perfect woman -I like baseball. I like Marvel comics. You should become a woman. Is that the go ahead to launch the Bladesinger Crusade? -No, overall, we like Bladesingers. I'm trying to fallow your logic... But I can't seem to shake the note of pride and arrogance I hear in my head when I read your posts... -You should- it's there. We're not all entitled to peace and happiness? Should I go fall on my sword then? -That's not what I said. I specifically said that people need to learn that just because they exist doesn't mean they are entitled. It's a very situational thing. I'll use an example I used before. Just because you are a high school student doesn't mean that you are entitled to college. -This is one of those things that really gets me, since I work (relativley) hard to continue going to the college of my choice, the one that I am currently attending. Sure, while most other students do try, there are far too many students who don't try, and don't really care, since they aren't paying a nickle for their college education, in the first place. I have a question for you however, Lord Karsus. We all know how you feel about Half-Elves being Bladesinger's (I'd honestly have better luck talking a stonewall into going for it), I wanna know how you feel about Half-Elves taking up a few of the other "Pure Elf" class. Yes, Elven High Mage is safe from the Half-Elven "taint". But what about Arcane Archer, or any of the other classes a Half Elf is able to take as well? I honestly want to know why you feel a Half Elf can't be a Bladesinger. Because if it comes down to blood, then... I donno... I'm at a lost. All I can feel is pity. -I don't really care too much about Half-Elven Arcane Archers, since the Arcane Archer (in my eyes) isn't anything too special. Bladesingers, however, are special. Since I like Star Wars, Bladesingers are akin to the Imperial Guard. It is a prestigious position that only the most qualified can obtain. Obviously, only those with complete loyalty to the Empire- and not those who are wavering between the Empire and Rebellion- can be one of the Emperor's Guards. -Does it come down to blood? Yes, yes it does. Here's a good example: I am Italian. You're not (It's a theoretical you, in case). No matter how badly you wanted to be Italian, you still can't be Italian. Thus, since you are not Italian, you should not be able to join the "Italian-American Association", whereas I could, because I am Italian. Is this the whole, 'nerd vs. jock' cliche that I always hear from a lot of DnD people again?! :rolleyes: -I didn't exactly mean it in that manner. as for some of the other "impossibilities" there actually were a very few white black panthers (no none of them got busted or killed to my knowledge but they did exist)... "While the party retained its all-black membership, it recognized that different communities (those it deemed oppressed by the American government) needed to organize around their own set of issues and encouraged alliances with these organizations." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panthers and even a few blacks (or given the times perhaps I should say "colored") who were passing for white and joined the klan... -Citation, please?
SmartPaladin 08-18-07, 03:45 PM	-You should- it's there. I'll take your word for it... -That's not what I said. I specifically said that people need to learn that just because they exist doesn't mean they are entitled. It's a very situational thing. I'll use an example I used before. Just because you are a high school student doesn't mean that you are entitled to college. -This is one of those things that really gets me, since I work (relativley) hard to continue going to the college of my choice, the one that I am currently attending. Sure, while most other students do try, there are far too many students who don't try, and don't really care, since they aren't paying a nickle for their college education, in the first place. Okay... I'm still stumped... I read this, and read this, and read this. And it keep coming back to the same thing. How life isn't fair, and bitterness. The fact that some are just handed a college education isn't fair to those who had and still have to work for their's. But then, life isn't fair, and I've come to accept that a long time ago. All some of us can do, is work hard and dream. Hope that we can do something with our lives, and some how make them better. Which is what the Half Elf in Bladesinger was trying for, he wanted a chance to prove his worth, and not be judged by the other Elves for the roundness of his ears. To make his life better. Which everyone has the right to try for. -I don't really care too much about Half-Elven Arcane Archers, since the Arcane Archer (in my eyes) isn't anything too special. Bladesingers, however, are special. Since I like Star Wars, Bladesingers are akin to the Imperial Guard. It is a prestigious position that only the most qualified can obtain. Obviously, only those with complete loyalty to the Empire- and not those who are wavering between the Empire and Rebellion- can be one of the Emperor's Guards. Eh? Okay, you liked Star Wars, I'll give you that one. Everything else, I'm throwing out. A Arcane Archer and Bladesinger are a lot alike. The only real diffrence? One uses a bow, the other a sword. Oh, and the one with the sword can sing and dance. Which is a neat trick, seeing as how some of us can only do that when we're drunk (why yes, yes that was a joke. A bad one maybe, but a joke none the less. Smile, your still alive). Sure, a Bladesinger get's alot nice abilities, but a Arcane Archer doesn't get ripped off ether. Well... yeah, they do... 'cause some of them aren't as cool as a Bladesingers, but a that doesn't mean they aren't still just as handy. The Arcane Archer is just as prestigious a position as the Bladesinger. Because, like the Bladesinger, the Arcane Archer focuses on blending the art of the bow with spell casting, were as the Bladesinger seeks to blend the arts, be they dancing, singing, or just playing an instrument (usually all three) with the skill of sword work, and spell casting. Guess people feel a archer should focus on shooting their arrow, then singing eh? Is the art of a Arcane Archer just as pretty to look at as the Bladesinger, no. Because when the Bladesinger is in battle, you can see it's skill and grace. When a Arcane Archer is in battle, well, your normally to busy ether trying not to get shot, or trying to kill the enemy, fast, because your part of the raiding party that that Arcane Archer is leading. -Does it come down to blood? Yes, yes it does. Here's a good example: I am Italian. You're not (It's a theoretical you, in case). No matter how badly you wanted to be Italian, you still can't be Italian. Thus, since you are not Italian, you should not be able to join the "Italian-American Association", whereas I could, because I am Italian. Your Italian, good for you. I'm a mutt, and as such, I couldn't care less what "race" someone is. Something about us all being human... Not sure what that is... Anyway, did that commit make your point? No, all it did was make me feel more pity for those who can't see pass blood and race. On a side note, being Italian-American doesn't preclude you from an occupation. It's also not a requirement. If your qualified, you can pursue it.
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 04:21 PM	-I like baseball. I like Marvel comics. You should become a woman. yeah but you like the Mets, not real baseball
Lord Karsus 08-18-07, 06:21 PM	Okay... I'm still stumped... I read this, and read this, and read this. And it keep coming back to the same thing. How life isn't fair, and bitterness. The fact that some are just handed a college education isn't fair to those who had and still have to work for their's. But then, life isn't fair, and I've come to accept that a long time ago. All some of us can do, is work hard and dream. Hope that we can do something with our lives, and some how make them better. Which is what the Half Elf in Bladesinger was trying for, he wanted a chance to prove his worth, and not be judged by the other Elves for the roundness of his ears. To make his life better. Which everyone has the right to try for. -The statement really is matter-of-fact, while my example did go into bitterness, I'll admit. Eh? Okay, you liked Star Wars, I'll give you that one. Everything else, I'm throwing out. A Arcane Archer and Bladesinger are a lot alike... -Arcane Archers are not Iconic of Elvendom, however, whereas Bladesingers are. Your Italian, good for you. I'm a mutt, and as such, I couldn't care less what "race" someone is. Something about us all being human... Not sure what that is... Anyway, did that commit make your point? No, all it did was make me feel more pity for those who can't see pass blood and race. On a side note, being Italian-American doesn't preclude you from an occupation. It's also not a requirement. If your qualified, you can pursue it. -Hey, I don't like having Italian blood in me- That's something I had no control over, however. -A Bladesinger isn't as much as it is a "job" as it is a "status". A "symbol", if you will. A "symbol" of Elvendom. Just as Moonblades are a "symbol" of Elvendom. Can Half-Elves go running around and use Moonblades? While (now) technically yes, the more conservative among us would say no, as one needs to be fully Elven to wield said blades (Yes, Elaine has stated that she originally intended Arilyn to be a "special case". Of course, Baker ruined this idea in his short story in the Realms of the Elves. Give him another point for checking with other authors in a shared world, to see what they originally intended for a specific idea...But, I digress...). I happen to be in that camp. -Also, for the note, I don't think like this (for the most part) in "real life" terms. These views, concerning racial relationships and all, are specifically concerning the Realms. yeah but you like the Mets, not real baseball -Ah, how you hurt me so. -Where is Jersey's baseball team? Eh? They seem to be missing in action.
Diffan 08-18-07, 06:22 PM	I'm a vain guy in a national fraternity, and while I do play D&D and am a massive nerve, I do not think that one person (or a minority) dispels the base root of stereotypes. Some stereotypes are oversimplified, but from a purely neurological standpoint, certain peoples' personalities are more suited towards certain goals and desires in life. I'm a huge proponent of Evolutionary Psychology and the like. I really have a pet peeve when people try to use "Well I.... [whatever]" to go against an established fact/archetype/stereotype. From a purely statistical and psychological point of view, I don't give a damn. That's what's called "anecdotal evidence," and it's so be avoided by anyone employing remotely scientific methods of deduction at all costs. Like legends, stereotypes do have some minor basis in truth. But do they account for the whole of humanity? No. Particularly when you take into account the role of the national media in its portrayal of jocks, fraternity boys and their ilk, you have an extremely skewed (may I add in some statistical jargon if it's not too far above your head?) view of athletes and fraternity members as a whole. Take your vanity and get another lesson in psychology--a stereotype may exist, but it is only those who play into it who truly are the big idiots, dorks and nerds. Go get your doctorate and post me when you've finished. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-18-07, 06:31 PM	-Ha, ha, ha! Dan just got lectured on educating himself! :D
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 09:37 PM	-Where is Jersey's baseball team? Eh? They seem to be missing in action. Yankee fan
GothicDan 08-19-07, 01:07 AM	Yes, the fact that I'm actively involved in the Greek community, and see that 95% of the stereotypes are TRUE, means absolutely nothing. Oh. Me and my neurologist recently giggled every time we mentioned 'psychology' at our last meeting - and my sister, a psych major, did, too. I really don't consider psychology a very credible 'science.' So if you're going to talk to me about being educated, that's cool - just don't confuse education with memory trivia regarding psychology. ;) Oh, and, tar tar tar, where did I ever say that anything I ever said referred to all of humanity? Only idiots assume things are absolutes.
MarkHall 08-19-07, 01:34 AM	Oh, this is simply brimming with on-topic-ness about bladesingers in the Realms. Contreversial statement: Half-elves are, according to the rules, elves in every way, shape and form. Not only should they be bladesingers, they should be in the Eldreth Veluthraa.
GothicDan 08-19-07, 01:35 AM	I'm not sure if the EV cares about the rules. :)
MarkHall 08-19-07, 02:13 AM	I'm not sure if the EV cares about the rules. :) But its in the RULES. I should be able to play it if I want to! ;) Yes, it was a somewhat silly example, simply because you can illustrate some things through absurdity that you can't otherwise.
Diffan 08-19-07, 07:47 PM	I'm sorry--you're comment about meeting with your neurologist confuses me. Do you regularly sit around and chat over your MRI's? And discuss the credibility of psychology as a field over coffee? What is your major anyway? I am the first to admit an opinion is only an opinion, unlike some. However, impuning an entire scientifically based and empirically supported field (some research is actually conducted by neurologists *GASP!*) for s%^#* and giggles is certainly something not to be done on this board. Go for your doctorate and argue this issue there. And in the case of "absolutes," I do believe that it was you who denied "anecdotal evidence" as proof against absolutes and stated that one person can not be proof against the validity of an entire "oversimplified" stereotype. This does imply that you DO in fact believe in the existence of absolutes. So, sir, before you call someone else an idiot, remember the old phrase, "the pot calling the kettle black." Oh, and just for a reference about stereotypes--here is the Wikipedia definition. Although not found in some voodoo talking psychology text that I have read and used, I believe it to be accurate. Take it for what it is. "Stereotypes are ideas held about members of particular groups, based primarily on membership in that group. Stereotypes are rarely completely accurate, based on some kernel of truth, or completely fabricated. Psychoanalytically-oriented humanists have argued that stereotypes, by definition, are never accurate representations, but a projection of an individual's fears onto others, regardless of the reality of others." So, going back on topic- Half-elves have every right to become bladesingers. I've not come across any version of the PrC that doesn't allow half-elves to become one because of that reason alone. Nothing in the rules say that pure elves are more inherent to be a bladesinger than a half elf is. Yes, it's true that elves view half elves sorrowfully, but that doesn't make them any less likely to become a prestigous member in any elven society (except maybe Evermeet) and gain the training required to become a bladesinger. In fact, they're human half might help push them to greater arcane might.
DarkSongKnight 08-19-07, 09:09 PM	Half-elven bladesingers. Hmmm.... I don't like the idea of half-elven bladesingers. I can see it, but only under special circumstances. For example, the half-elf would of had to been raised by his elven parent, taught the elven ways, and strove to be elven with every part of his being. Then, maybe (big maybe) he would be granted the privilege to learn the art of bladesong and would be somewhat respected in that specific community. Outside of that community, however, most elves would have little to no respect for him. Some might even take offense that he was taught the style, and be hostile. Can a half-elf qualify for the game mechanics? Sure. Would he be able to get the training? Maybe. Would he be treated like a full blooded elf and gain prestige as a bladesinger? Nope. Why? Because elves are elves. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 08-19-07, 10:38 PM	So, going back on topic- Half-elves have every right to become bladesingers. I've not come across any version of the PrC that doesn't allow half-elves to become one because of that reason alone. Nothing in the rules say that pure elves are more inherent to be a bladesinger than a half elf is. Yes, it's true that elves view half elves sorrowfully, but that doesn't make them any less likely to become a prestigous member in any elven society (except maybe Evermeet) and gain the training required to become a bladesinger. In fact, they're human half might help push them to greater arcane might. I responded to the rest of your message in private, Diffan. And in 2E, only full-blooded Elves could be Bladesingers. Obviously those of us who are forming our opinions against half-elves really are considering the 2E precedent to be first and foremost true to the original image.
MarkHall 08-20-07, 01:39 AM	I think there are two different discussions happening here. 1) Are half-elves physically and mentally capable of learning and using the bladesong, if provided with a teacher? 2) Would elven society allow this? I think the answer to #1 is that they are capable of doing so; there is nothing that prevents it from happening, except elven society and prejudices.
SmartPaladin 08-20-07, 01:43 AM	-Arcane Archers are not Iconic of Elvendom, however, whereas Bladesingers are. Odd... I seem to recall reading that being a Arcane Archer was iconic for the Elves as well. Kinda sad really... If the story and the reason is good enough, as well as if the Half Elf has the skills to be a fairly good Bladesinger, then I still see no reason why not. I even view a Half Elf Bladesinger more of the chaotic nature of the elves. But really, it comes down to the story, and how much it makes sense. If it doesn't work, then it just sucks. As for the Half Elf with Moonblade's problem? That's easy to fix. How long you think it'll be before some fool tries to take it up and is killed on the spot? Or the Blade just goes dormant? It's happened to a few pure elves, it'll happen to a few half elves. I honestly think the Moonblade's only care if you have some Moon Elven blood in you, and that you are a worthy wielder. If your not up to the task, then it'll ether go to sleep, or it's off to Kelemvor with you.
Diffan 08-20-07, 07:48 AM	And in 2E, only full-blooded Elves could be Bladesingers. Obviously those of us who are forming our opinions against half-elves really are considering the 2E precedent to be first and foremost true to the original image. And this would be true if you or the topic was being used in 2E, but it's 3.5 and the rules have vastly changed as you know. I believe that the 2E supplements are extreamly useful for lore, but I disregard any game mechanics for they don't apply to the new editions. True, the elven society hasn't changed with the game, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a half elf or 2 running around bladesinging for as we all know, novels are canon too. If your one to see novels as fodder, then I guess you don't have Shadovar, Shade Enclave, the return of Bane in your campaigns? Odd... I seem to recall reading that being a Arcane Archer was iconic for the Elves as well. Kinda sad really... It's probably only iconic because you have to be an elf (or half elf) to become one. Almost all elven PrC's allow half elves to become one as well, except for maybe the Elven High Mage but I don't have the book at hand so I'm not sure. I'd assume that Arcane Archers are the elite of the elite when it comes to the wielding of bow and magic and lead elven incursions against they're foes. Probably providing missile fire and spell offense/defense to the ground troops. As a side note-Where do duskblades fit into the mix? I went to the Class Chronicles page but they've been taken off so I don't have any lore about them. Any help?
Lord Karsus 08-20-07, 09:46 AM	Odd... I seem to recall reading that being a Arcane Archer was iconic for the Elves as well. Kinda sad really... -Not particularly. Being a Spellarcher is a prestigious thing, yes, but it does not compare to Bladesinging. Compare Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax. Both were excellent pitchers, and dominant forces on the 60s Dodgers. Koufax, however, was the face of the franchise. As for the Half Elf with Moonblade's problem? That's easy to fix. How long you think it'll be before some fool tries to take it up and is killed on the spot? Or the Blade just goes dormant? It's happened to a few pure elves, it'll happen to a few half elves. I honestly think the Moonblade's only care if you have some Moon Elven blood in you, and that you are a worthy wielder. If your not up to the task, then it'll ether go to sleep, or it's off to Kelemvor with you. -I was just venting, and going out on a tangent, there. Half-Elves are not supposed to be eligible to wield Moonblades. Elaine stated in a reply at the 'Keep that Arilyn was a special exception, and the reason why was supposed to be an important plotline in her upcomming novel, Reclamation. However, when Rich Baker allowed a Half-Elf to wield a Moonblade in short story in Realms of the Elves, that kind of killed Elaine's original idea on her item, that only full blooded Elves could wield them. And this would be true if you or the topic was being used in 2E, but it's 3.5 and the rules have vastly changed as you know. -Rules change, but established lore and canon does not change- unless, of course, changed specifically in a novel, or sourcebook. And, even then, we don't have to nececessary listen. ;) As a side note-Where do duskblades fit into the mix? I went to the Class Chronicles page but they've been taken off so I don't have any lore about them. Any help? Elven Duskblades In the ancient Vyshaanti fighting academies, a martial style developed among young elves who were gifted in fighting and magic. This was a divergent path of bladesinging -- a more brutal style that incorporated heavier armor and more deadly spells. Originally known as Nael'kerym, these warriors greatly complemented bladesingers. They were meant to be heavy combat spellblades, while the bladesingers acted as precision skirmishers. When the army of Aryvandaar invaded Shantel Othreier in -10,900, the heavily armored spellblade contingent was faced with a terrible decision. Witnessing their nation invading an allied land, trafficking with infernal powers, and showing a complete disregard for the lives of their kin, these warriors were torn between abandoning their nation or slaughtering their brethren. Heated discussion occurred at the war council. One side was firmly in support of the Vyshaanti, citing a variety of reasons why the attack was just. To the other side, these explanations and excuses rang hollow. Before the war council could resolve this thorny question, a fast-moving orc horde fell upon both armies. The loyalists stayed with the Aryvandaaran forces, slaughtering elf and orc alike. The dissenters fought orcs only, attempting to stay away from both other contingents and meeting mostly with success. Afterward, the warriors who slew indiscriminately became known as duskblades. They received this name because their contingent broke through the Shantel Othreier line at dusk, cresting a hill toward victory. Survivors of the enemy forces described these warriors as frightening blurs of magic and metal, shining in the fading orange sun like vengeful, fallen angels. Following the massacre, the duskblades came to be thought of as "steel dancers," or H'ei'Yal Drathinmaleé. Those that cleaved through their brethren with sword and spell became ignominious symbols of Aryvandaaran treachery. The dissenters were forgotten, a footnote in most elven lore tomes. When the Vyshaanti, and later the Dlardrageth, descended into the evil of infernal lore, the duskblades became symbols for the corruption of the ancient bladesinging tradition. The dissenters at the battle for Northern Shantel Othreier may have been forgotten, but the tradition did not end there. Valorous duskblades remained, helping Shantel Othreier until the end, as well as other invaded kingdoms. They constantly proved their valor in these battles, but eventually, their tradition all but died out when the Vyshaanti succeeded in conquering the rest of the elven realms. When the Vyshaan reign came to an end, many of the duskblades died with it. Later, some were sealed in Nar Kerymhoarth with the rest of the Fey'ri legion. They were recently seen among the Fey'ri army led by Sarya Dlardrageth. A few of the duskblade dissenters remained after the Crown Wars, passing down the tradition through the generations. Eventually, this art became mostly lost, something that was practiced only secretly for fear of association with the Vyshaanti. Future duskblades hid their abilities, mimicking the more fluid styles of the bladesingers by wearing mithral armor and studying music and dance. They knew that if their true abilities were revealed, they would be associated with the treachery of the crown wars. Thousands of years have passed, and the duskblade tradition is all but forgotten. Here and there, an elven warrior learns this tradition from a mentor, usually unaware of its dark origin. Most current duskblades are sun elves, but there are members from other subraces. There are no formal groups of duskblades in Faerun. The study of this art is always passed down by an experienced mentor to a promising young elven warrior. Many young duskblades do not learn anything about their history until centuries into their studies. The secrets are jealously guarded by justifiably cautious mentors. The greatest concentration of duskblades seems to be in Silverymoon, but there are a number in Evereska and the new settlements in Cormanthor. For the most part, these are valorous elven warriors. Small numbers of duskblades closer to the Vyshaanti ideal are hidden among members of the Eldreth Veluuthra and in some of the sun elf noble houses of Evermeet. Duskblades serving the Eldreth Veluuthra are often called "cleansing blades" (Uluuth Phlarenn), a name sometimes used as an alternative for the entire organization. For those wishing to utilize the history of the duskblades in Faerun but without incorporating the class into their games, there is an alternative. It is easy enough to use the bladesinger prestige class from Races of Faerun. Use the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcana to allow bladesingers to wear mithral full plate. The rest is just character choices and style.
SmartPaladin 08-20-07, 06:05 PM	-Not particularly. Being a Spellarcher is a prestigious thing, yes, but it does not compare to Bladesinging. Compare Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax. Both were excellent pitchers, and dominant forces on the 60s Dodgers. Koufax, however, was the face of the franchise. You just had to use a sports analogy to someone who's never been able to really get into half of the big sports... Oh well. -I was just venting, and going out on a tangent, there. Half-Elves are not supposed to be eligible to wield Moonblades. Elaine stated in a reply at the 'Keep that Arilyn was a special exception, and the reason why was supposed to be an important plotline in her upcomming novel, Reclamation. However, when Rich Baker allowed a Half-Elf to wield a Moonblade in short story in Realms of the Elves, that kind of killed Elaine's original idea on her item, that only full blooded Elves could wield them. I can understand the need to vent. I can even understand the problem with more and more Half-Elves with Moonblades. But on the bright side, at least the chances of a human getting a Moonblade are still slim. The closes a Human got was Danilo Thann.
GothicDan 08-20-07, 07:30 PM	And this would be true if you or the topic was being used in 2E, but it's 3.5 and the rules have vastly changed as you know. I believe that the 2E supplements are extreamly useful for lore, but I disregard any game mechanics for they don't apply to the new editions. True, the elven society hasn't changed with the game, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a half elf or 2 running around bladesinging for as we all know, novels are canon too. If your one to see novels as fodder, then I guess you don't have Shadovar, Shade Enclave, the return of Bane in your campaigns? Correct. Nor the Shadow Weave or the retaking of Myth Drannor. And I do not consider ALL novels fodder; just those that are fodder.
Diffan 08-21-07, 06:22 AM	Correct. Nor the Shadow Weave or the retaking of Myth Drannor. And I do not consider ALL novels fodder; just those that are fodder. Well, all novels you consider fodder. Do you even bother playing in 3E/3.5? -I was just venting, and going out on a tangent, there. Half-Elves are not supposed to be eligible to wield Moonblades. Elaine stated in a reply at the 'Keep that Arilyn was a special exception, and the reason why was supposed to be an important plotline in her upcomming novel, Reclamation. However, when Rich Baker allowed a Half-Elf to wield a Moonblade in short story in Realms of the Elves, that kind of killed Elaine's original idea on her item, that only full blooded Elves could wield them. Here's something we agree on. Though Arilyn is a special case, I don't see any other half elves wielding Moonblades. I'd assume the line for the elven throne would go to none other than a full blooded elf. Half elven rulers would cause SOOO many problems, besides the inherent ones, to their society. It'd be the crown wars all over again. Hells, just having a Moon elf on the throne causes problems.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 09:18 AM	Though Arilyn is a special case, I don't see any other half elves wielding Moonblades. -Nilsa Harvalmeer , a woman living in the Dalelands with a small degree of Elven blood was able to wield the Morvaeril Moonblade without any ill effects. Daried Morvaeril, a Bladesinger who was fighting with the Elven Crusade, and had just recently "freed" the Morvaeril Moonblade gave the weapon to Nilsa as a gift. This, now, establishes a precident that other Half-Elves (or those with even less Elven blood) can wield these special blades. You just had to use a sports analogy to someone who's never been able to really get into half of the big sports... Oh well. -Hmm...Well, at least you knew it was a sports analogy. That's a step in the right direction! :P -I'm sure you've heard of Sandy Koufax, though...Right...? The closes a Human got was Danilo Thann. -And, what a guy he is.
Karsus the Mad 08-21-07, 10:11 AM	I want a dwarven bladesinger, just to see GD's and LK's reaction...
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 10:37 AM	I want a dwarven bladesinger, just to see GD's and LK's reaction... -So much other crazy stuff is going to happen to the Realms. Keep your eyes peeled, and you might just see one.
Suin Bahhar 08-21-07, 10:47 AM	Anyone ever converted the Kits for half-elves in dragon 214? There are interesting kits for halfelven fighter/mages, ranger/clerics, etc. One fighter/mage kit is a Spell-archer (identical to arcane archers) and the interesting one is the Aristocrat. This fighter/mage had to be halfelf, have str 9, int & dex 13 and cha 14. It focused on increased wealth, a litte bit of extra defence, and persuasion. The closest prc I can think of this archetype can represent is a adapted bladesinger with extra skill points. There were several others. The Dilettante(fighter/mage/thief), Redeemer(fighter/mage/cleric), Diplomat(fighter/mage/thief) that could be made into interesting new prc's fot the half-elf spellsword archetype. These would be more common for halfelves to have. Only in really special cases halfelves like Taen can become bladesingers.
SmartPaladin 08-21-07, 12:17 PM	-Hmm...Well, at least you knew it was a sports analogy. That's a step in the right direction! :P -I'm sure you've heard of Sandy Koufax, though...Right...? With, or with out Google? -And, what a guy he is. Why do I think I heard you drool? Or was that more of a groan? I want a dwarven bladesinger, just to see GD's and LK's reaction... 10-1 we'll get a Dwelf, named Jill (a free box of internet cookies to anyone who gets the name reference), Bladesinger wielding a Moonblade first. :P
Karsus the Mad 08-21-07, 12:21 PM	10-1 we'll get a Dwelf, named Jill (a free box of internet cookies to anyone who gets the name reference), Bladesinger wielding a Moonblade first. Reply With Quote Heh...the funny thing is, I personally have no problem with a dwelven bladesinger wielding a moonblade:embarrass Heck, half-elven Netherese Arcanist Elven High Mage Beholder Mage sounds mighty nice to me...or would that be an Elven Netherese Beholder High Mage? Why do I think I heard you drool? Or was that more of a groan? I'd be the Karsus most likely to drool over Danilo. I think my 1/3 apsect was infecting LK at the time he posted that.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 12:48 PM	With, or with out Google? -Without. Come, man! We're going to the game tonight... :: Opens a Dimension Door, and steps in :: Why do I think I heard you drool? Or was that more of a groan? -A little admiration. Most of the Rogues that I play are very Danillo-ish in concept. 10-1 we'll get a Dwelf, named Jill (a free box of internet cookies to anyone who gets the name reference), Bladesinger wielding a Moonblade first. :P -No Dwelves. Brennon actually hunted them to extinction... -Jill, who was named after his mother, was a companion of Arilyn Moonblade, in Silver Shadows.
GothicDan 08-21-07, 02:32 PM	Well, all novels you consider fodder. Do you even bother playing in 3E/3.5? I would use the ruleset since everyone else does, if that's what you're asking, and I do find some of the mechanics generally easier. As far as lore goes, I'd most likely use everything from 1E and a sprinkling of things from 2E. I'd also ignore the Time of Troubles altogether (hate Cyric and Kelemvor, not a fan of Midnight, etc.) And this has nothing to do with me being a nostalgic grognard since I'm only 22, remember. What's your point, exactly? Oh, I also think the explanation for the Dracorage mythal is incredibly stupid.
SmartPaladin 08-21-07, 03:06 PM	-Without. Come, man! We're going to the game tonight... :: Opens a Dimension Door, and steps in :: But, but... I don't really like baseball. I'm one of the guy's that thinks the batter should keep a hold of the bat, makes the basemen think twice about getting you out. :P -A little admiration. Most of the Rogues that I play are very Danillo-ish in concept. I'm with you on that one. I both loved and hated Danilo. Loved him because of how funny he was/is, and hated him because we'd see just how clever he really is, and then he turns around and it's back to the dandy. Drove me crazy. -No Dwelves. Brennon actually hunted them to extinction... -Jill, who was named after his mother, was a companion of Arilyn Moonblade, in Silver Shadows. Guess that's why we don't see alot of Dwelves around... Though I doubt that'll stop Jill's sister Jill and that elf guy Jill took home with him. :P You get a box of internet cookies. *hands box*
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 06:51 PM	But, but... I don't really like baseball. I'm one of the guy's that thinks the batter should keep a hold of the bat, makes the basemen think twice about getting you out. :P -Bats are indeed dangerous things. You get a box of internet cookies. *hands box* -Mmm, how tasty.
Diffan 08-21-07, 09:42 PM	What's your point, exactly? Well, considering that most of the newer RSE's ie....the shadow weave, midinight being mystra, return of shade and Bane, a complete re-working of the Cosmos is generally 3E/3.5, you don't take into account any of it. This makes me question if you even run your campaigns with the new rules, being as you like to stick to the old stuff. And if so, it would validate your vehement anti-half elven bladesingers in the realms. Certainly makes more sense if it is so. Oh, I also think the explanation for the Dracorage mythal is incredibly stupid. Honestly, I really don't know too much about the Mythals or their creation other than the one in Myth Drannor. I know there are others through out the Realms but I've really had no interest in them.
Karsus the Mad 08-21-07, 10:32 PM	But, but... I don't really like baseball. I'm one of the guy's that thinks the batter should keep a hold of the bat, makes the basemen think twice about getting you out. Ditto :) Why hit a lil' ball, only to run in circles and end exactly where you started?;)
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 11:22 PM	Honestly, I really don't know too much about the Mythals or their creation other than the one in Myth Drannor. I know there are others through out the Realms but I've really had no interest in them. -You can read up on Mythals in my article about them in Elves of Faerūn. You can also catch up on what the Dracorage Mythal was in another article in Elves of Faerūn. Ditto :) Why hit a lil' ball, only to run in circles and end exactly where you started?;) -Why breathe? EDIT: When a left-handed batter comes home, he ends up on the opposite side of the plate that he stood at while batting.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 01:34 PM	-Nilsa Harvalmeer , a woman living in the Dalelands with a small degree of Elven blood was able to wield the Morvaeril Moonblade without any ill effects. Daried Morvaeril, a Bladesinger who was fighting with the Elven Crusade, and had just recently "freed" the Morvaeril Moonblade gave the weapon to Nilsa as a gift. This, now, establishes a precident that other Half-Elves (or those with even less Elven blood) can wield these special blades. And let's not forget the fact that Daried was a gold elf wielding a moonblade--that also went "against the grain", so to speak.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 02:22 PM	And let's not forget the fact that Daried was a gold elf wielding a moonblade--that also went "against the grain", so to speak. -Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. And, the Starym Moonblade is/was wielded by a Sun Elf as well, though that was a special case, what, with Moander and all. If Daried was the heir to the Morvaeril Moonblade, and he was, Sun Elf or not, I'd have no problem with him using the weapon.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 02:24 PM	And let's not forget the fact that Daried was a gold elf wielding a moonblade--that also went "against the grain", so to speak. -Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. And, the Starym Moonblade is/was wielded by a Sun Elf as well, though that was a special case, what, with Moander and all. If Daried was the heir to the Morvaeril Moonblade, and he was, Sun Elf or not, I'd have no problem with him using the weapon.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 02:24 PM	And let's not forget the fact that Daried was a gold elf wielding a moonblade--that also went "against the grain", so to speak. -Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. And, the Starym Moonblade is/was wielded by a Sun Elf as well, though that was a special case, what, with Moander and all. If Daried was the heir to the Morvaeril Moonblade, and he was, Sun Elf or not, I'd have no problem with him using the weapon.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 02:26 PM	And let's not forget the fact that Daried was a gold elf wielding a moonblade--that also went "against the grain", so to speak. -Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. And, the Starym Moonblade is/was wielded by a Sun Elf as well, though that was a special case, what, with Moander and all. If Daried was the heir to the Morvaeril Moonblade, and he was, Sun Elf or not, I'd have no problem with him using the weapon.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 02:26 PM	And let's not forget the fact that Daried was a gold elf wielding a moonblade--that also went "against the grain", so to speak. -Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. And, the Starym Moonblade is/was wielded by a Sun Elf as well, though that was a special case, what, with Moander and all. If Daried was the heir to the Morvaeril Moonblade, and he was, Sun Elf or not, I'd have no problem with him using the weapon.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 03:22 PM	-Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. I'm aware of that, but sun elves wielding moonblades (that aren't corrupted) was something that just wasn't seen before this short story, IIRC. Then of course there was all the anxiety Elaith had (and probably still has) over whether or not his gold elf daughter will want to/be able to wield his moonblade, although of course that might be a case of limited character knowledge.
GothicDan 08-22-07, 09:15 PM	I really wouldn't mind all of the exceptions so much if the norm was more prevalently represented in novels. :) The very first novel we got that featured a Bladesinger - and it was a Half-Elven Bladesinger. The very first novel trilogy we got that featured a Sun Elf as the primary protagonist - and he was a Sun Elf that denied much of the most important aspects of his culture and acted more like a Moon Elf. This, of course, isn't even touching on the strange races (and to a lesser extent, classes) being used.
MerrikCale 08-22-07, 09:30 PM	This, of course, isn't even touching on the strange races (and to a lesser extent, classes) being used. what strange classes?
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 11:54 PM	-Whoops. Sorry for the quadruple post...:embarrass
boards 08-23-07, 03:21 AM	-Sun Elves were given the opportunity to claim Moonblade when they were first created, though. And, the Starym Moonblade is/was wielded by a Sun Elf as well, though that was a special case, what, with Moander and all. If Daried was the heir to the Morvaeril Moonblade, and he was, Sun Elf or not, I'd have no problem with him using the weapon. Daried wasnt wielding the moonblade. It had been passed down to his mothers sister who was the last of her line thus ending its use. He was simply infuriated that someone would steal such an honoured sword from his families home. I dont believe he was expecting to be able to use it, simply to take it back to his home.
GothicDan 08-23-07, 03:24 AM	While I haven't read the short story, I think that Daried counted as 'wielding' the Moonblade for as far as the blade was concerned - Elaine made a rather large point out o the whole thing at one point on Candlekeep. And as to the strange classes... There was a weird Ghost-walker thingy. And didn't Darkvision depict some weird form of spell caster?
boards 08-23-07, 06:15 AM	Thats odd, because as far as I remember Daried didnt even touch the moonblade. It was in the hands of a Chondathan mercendary and was for all intents and purposes dead, until the half-elf picked it up.
Lord Karsus 08-23-07, 10:34 AM	And didn't Darkvision depict some weird form of spell caster? -No. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 01:21 PM	Thats odd, because as far as I remember Daried didnt even touch the moonblade. It was in the hands of a Chondathan mercendary and was for all intents and purposes dead, until the half-elf picked it up. I think you're right. My memory has been jogged. So basically, the moonblade in that story was wielded by a half-gold elf who wasn't even a member of Daried's family. The idea expressed was that you don't have to be an elf or of any specific lineage, you just have to be "worthy".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 01:23 PM	-No. Nothing out of the ordinary. I think maybe Dan is talking about that assassin who was able to use that strange (and deadly) type of poison a few times a day? Or was it the geomancer?;) Not to go into much detail, but that novel did have some odd things in it, even if they weren't class related.
boards 08-23-07, 05:31 PM	I think you're right. My memory has been jogged. So basically, the moonblade in that story was wielded by a half-gold elf who wasn't even a member of Daried's family. The idea expressed was that you don't have to be an elf or of any specific lineage, you just have to be "worthy". Thats about it, I dont think they mention what sub species of elf she is descended from but that isnt really the issue. the fact that a half-elf, apparently not of his family can weild a moonblade I have serious issues with.
GothicDan 08-23-07, 07:04 PM	And people like to say that the Elves of Faerun haven't changed, when Elaine herself has expressed this opinion, and one of the advertisements on WotC for the Last Mythal trilogy was to "rehabilitate the Elves," which infers change...
MarkHall 08-23-07, 07:09 PM	I think you're right. My memory has been jogged. So basically, the moonblade in that story was wielded by a half-gold elf who wasn't even a member of Daried's family. The idea expressed was that you don't have to be an elf or of any specific lineage, you just have to be "worthy". If I'm remembering the story correctly, I got the impression that she was of the lineage of his family... an illegitimate line, but of the same lineage. That family had lived in the area, and she was a local.
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 10:30 AM	I think maybe Dan is talking about that assassin who was able to use that strange (and deadly) type of poison a few times a day? Or was it the geomancer?;) -Well, Geomancers aren't exactly strange. They're just Elementalists. And, the Imaskari Vengeance Taker, Iahn, didn't use magic at all. He did have his item, that poison thing, though.
Zanan 08-24-07, 10:57 AM	-Well, Geomancers aren't exactly strange. They're just Elementalists. And, the Imaskari Vengeance Taker, Iahn, didn't use magic at all. He did have his item, that poison thing, though. What does growing feathers and tails and cats' ears have to do with elemantalists, I wonder?
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 11:43 AM	What does growing feathers and tails and cats' ears have to do with elemantalists, I wonder? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancer -Geomancers deal with only the power of Elemental Earth. Logically, then, they are Elementalists.
Zanan 08-24-07, 01:41 PM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancer -Geomancers deal with only the power of Elemental Earth. Logically, then, they are Elementalists. See my previous question. I was referring to the prestige class and the special stuff it provides. It (the growing of feathers and tails and what have you) has, IMHO, nothing to do with Elemental Earth. It looks more like an "alienist of Nature".
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 02:21 PM	See my previous question. I was referring to the prestige class and the special stuff it provides. It (the growing of feathers and tails and what have you) has, IMHO, nothing to do with Elemental Earth. It looks more like an "alienist of Nature". -I, however, never said anything about the Geomancer PrC. -Anyway, as I provided in the link, Geomancer means, in Greek, "Earth Divination". Actual Geomancers tried to divine things using the power of sand, earth and rock. In D&D terms, I don't know what the Geomancer PrC bestows upon a PC, but, judging by how Thormud Horn, the Geomancer from Darkvision acted, and given his affinities for the element of Earth, again, I think it is safe to say that Geomancers are Earth Elementalists.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 03:06 PM	The Geomancer PrC has nothing to do with Elemental Earth, and it's one of the PrCs I hate the most. :) However, as I didn't read Darkvision, well, I can't comment on the in-character magical affinities.
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 10:28 PM	The Geomancer PrC has nothing to do with Elemental Earth, and it's one of the PrCs I hate the most. :) -How does the Geomancer PrC have nothing to do with Elemental Earth, when said element was what Geomancers had affinities in? :rolleyes:
GothicDan 08-24-07, 10:35 PM	Why do you think I hate it?
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 10:39 PM	-Once more, I share your sentiments. :nonono:
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 11:05 PM	can I join this lovefest of anti-geomancers?
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:08 PM	I don't know, Merrik. You like a lot of things me and LK don't.
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 11:13 PM	I don't know, Merrik. You like a lot of things me and LK don't. Perhaps, we're not as different as you think. At least we have this common ground
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:49 PM	That's very true!
Zanan 08-25-07, 08:37 AM	-I, however, never said anything about the Geomancer PrC. -Anyway, as I provided in the link, Geomancer means, in Greek, "Earth Divination". Actual Geomancers tried to divine things using the power of sand, earth and rock. In D&D terms, I don't know what the Geomancer PrC bestows upon a PC, but, judging by how Thormud Horn, the Geomancer from Darkvision acted, and given his affinities for the element of Earth, again, I think it is safe to say that Geomancers are Earth Elementalists. I ... never commenting on anything other than the geomancer PrC. ;) Rest assured, I know what geomancer means, even without Wikipedia. BTW, that dwarf was a geomancer in name, but not in PrC. Most likely more an Elemental Savant type of character, methinks.
Suin Bahhar 08-27-07, 01:34 PM	When browsing my copy of Elves of Evermeet I found Shanyrria Alenuath, the best Bladesinger of Evermeet (F12/M12), is rumored to have some human blood in her. She denies it but she has striking red hair and brown eyes, unusual for silver elves. I love her already for this.
MarkHall 08-27-07, 06:07 PM	Of course. Elves need blood of other races for things like drive and ambition.
MerrikCale 08-27-07, 09:23 PM	When browsing my copy of Elves of Evermeet I found Shanyrria Alenuath, the best Bladesinger of Evermeet (F12/M12), is rumored to have some human blood in her. She denies it but she has striking red hair and brown eyes, unusual for silver elves. I love her already for this. she does sound hot
Suin Bahhar 08-28-07, 10:05 AM	Agreed. Redhead elves are stunning. Shanyrria being the best and having human blood gives hope to all halfelves aspiring to become bladesingers. They have the potential to surpass their fullblooded bladesingers in power(with more HP's and a little less grace).
MarkHall 08-28-07, 11:42 PM	Red-head elves are like matches... sticks with a bit of red at top. ;)
GothicDan 08-29-07, 06:13 AM	Of course. Elves need blood of other races for things like drive and ambition. Actually, the reason why the Sun Elves are my favorite subrace is the fact they're far more driven and ambitious than the other subraces (with the possible exception of the Drow - but that's another story). I consider ambition - whether it leads to good or bad goals - to be a very respectable thing. Perhaps the very most respectable.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-29-07, 08:45 PM	If I'm remembering the story correctly, I got the impression that she was of the lineage of his family... an illegitimate line, but of the same lineage. That family had lived in the area, and she was a local. I didn't get that impression, but it's possible. Needless to say, the book didn't give me any particular reason to assume Daried and Nilsa were related.
Lord Karsus 08-30-07, 01:17 AM	I didn't get that impression, but it's possible. Needless to say, the book didn't give me any particular reason to assume Daried and Nilsa were related. -The book didn't give us any particular reason to read it, either, but yet, we did. -Oh, that was mean. For what it's worth, I assumed that Daried and Nilsa were related as well. The Moonblade would not have activated for her if she weren't of the same liniage.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-30-07, 08:59 AM	-The book didn't give us any particular reason to read it, either, but yet, we did. Ha! To be fair, that story in itself wasn't too bad. I would have liked it more if it wasn't tied in with the Last Mythal trilogy. Oh, that was mean. For what it's worth, I assumed that Daried and Nilsa were related as well. The Moonblade would not have activated for her if she weren't of the same liniage. What I took away from that story was "it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is that you are 'worthy'" (and "worthy" is indeed a vague, catch-all term, EC herself has pointed out). While Nilsa was a heroic person, I've read about countless other characters who were just as (if not more) heroic as she was. So I didn't see what was so special about her that she could wield the moonblade when no one else could. I also got the vibe that she could wield the blade because Daried was a narrow-minded, bigoted gold elf, and Nilsa teaches him that perhaps there's more to being an elf than just what your blood/race is (to paraphrase a line from the story). I think Daried even says something to the effect of "perhaps you are more elf than I am" (!).
Lord Karsus 08-30-07, 10:15 AM	What I took away from that story was "it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is that you are 'worthy'" (and "worthy" is indeed a vague, catch-all term, EC herself has pointed out). While Nilsa was a heroic person, I've read about countless other characters who were just as (if not more) heroic as she was. So I didn't see what was so special about her that she could wield the moonblade when no one else could. I also got the vibe that she could wield the blade because Daried was a narrow-minded, bigoted gold elf, and Nilsa teaches him that perhaps there's more to being an elf than just what your blood/race is (to paraphrase a line from the story). I think Daried even says something to the effect of "perhaps you are more elf than I am" (!). -Sticking with canon lore (and, with this series, we're taking a guess here), a Moonblade can only be used by someone "in the family". The Starym Moonblade can only be used by a Starym, the Moonflower Moonblade can only be used by a Moonflower, and so on. Thus, the Moraervil (sp?), in order to be activated, must be used by someone of that line.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-30-07, 10:20 AM	-Sticking with canon lore (and, with this series, we're taking a guess here), a Moonblade can only be used by someone "in the family". The Starym Moonblade can only be used by a Starym, the Moonflower Moonblade can only be used by a Moonflower, and so on. Thus, the Moraervil (sp?), in order to be activated, must be used by someone of that line. That was kind of my point, though--the story seems to present a change in the lore regarding moonblades.
Lord Karsus 08-30-07, 10:38 AM	-How so? There is nothing that indicates that the established lore concerning Moonblades and who can use them is changed. I'm not saying that you are wrong. G-d knows, so many other things have been arbitrarily changed over the years. -But, don't you find it more likely that 'our' hypothesis is correct (Nilsa is of the same bloodline as Daried, and thus, can use the Moonblade), than 'yours' (Moonblades are now availible for any to use, as long as they are 'worthy', barring race, relations, and so on), due to the lack of any information concerning any kind of change?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-30-07, 11:04 AM	-But, don't you find it more likely that 'our' hypothesis is correct (Nilsa is of the same bloodline as Daried, and thus, can use the Moonblade), than 'yours' (Moonblades are now availible for any to use, as long as they are 'worthy', barring race, relations, and so on), due to the lack of any information concerning any kind of change? I did say that it's possible Nilsa and Daried are of the same bloodline. As for who is "more correct", I don't really care. It was never my intent to have any kind of argument over this (nor do I have a "hypothesis", just an impression). I haven't studied this story deeply as if it were Shakespeare. I prefer the older lore myself anyway, and I'll use what information I like. So will you, I think.
Trailstalker 08-31-07, 01:41 AM	When it comes to the short story you've been discussing, I got the following impressions: 1. The Moonblade worked for Nilsa because, somewhere in her lineage, she's a descendant of the same family as Daried. It even states in the short story, IIRC, that one must be a descendant of the blood line in order to wield it, and that the blade chooses whom. 2. I also got the impression, especially from the end, that Byers was setting it up for a possible hook into a new character/novel, as he left alot wide open for future exploration.
Lord Karsus 08-31-07, 10:55 AM	2. I also got the impression, especially from the end, that Byers was setting it up for a possible hook into a new character/novel, as he left alot wide open for future exploration. -That was Baker, not Byers. A lot of authors with 'B's in the Realms, though. Baker, Boyd, Byers, deBie, Bassingthwaite...