Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sabrar 02-24-07, 02:14 PM	In my last thread it seems I started a controversy on Bregan D'aerthe's membership numbers. Some of you went with the number stated in the box set and some of you like me disagreed with this. Some very good ideas came out of this so I decided to give it its own thread to see what more you out there could come up with. I will respect all opinions/ideas but give me details on why you believe the way you do. I don't want answers like "Because the box set says so." I want your own thoughts backed by well thought out statistics. I may challenge some of you on your ideas but this is not to belittle you but to get you to give more details. I would ask all involved to respect each others opinions and not reply with insults or belittling comments. Agree to disagree. Here is why I don't think the 150 membership will work. For staters there hasn't been much detailed information about them in the gaming material or the novels. The band has always been a side item in the literature and not much thought or effort has been put into them. Book 2 of the box set devotes 2 pages to them and most of this info is on Jarlaxle himself. Secondly the numbers don't take into account support groups, these support groups will be full members because they will be involved with the inner workings of the band. Let me break these groups down to give you an idea of what I'm talking about and we will use the 150 stat to give it reference. Supply - A group of any size will have to have some means of resupplying itself. 1 person in charge of this division, 1 helper, and 1 person to record/keep track of the transactions. Treasury - Someone has to keep track of the money earned and spent so lets say 1 guy in charge of this Dept and 1 person for each division to track expenditures and at least 1 guy to do payroll. Blacksmiths - Besides fixing/making armor/weapons this group would also be your maintenance/construction dept. 5-10 with 1 in charge. Intelligence - For a city the size of Menzo 5 field men, 1 person in charge, 1 person to record and document, and 2-5 for assasinations and interrogation would be about right. Clerics - Besides medical/religious matters they would also support the troops in combat with their magic so 1 head cleric and 5-10 others. Mages - besides supplying magical items and helping with the intelligence branch, they would support the troops as artillery or special combat units. So 5-10 with 1 in charge. Troops - 50-100 to be effective support for any House war and some of these troops will be specialized in areas of warfare. Recruitment - The underdark and Drow society are a dangerous place to be so you will lose people. To replace your numbers you will have to have someone recruit more, House wars will not supply enough rogue nobles to do this. So at least 1-2 people to fulfill this function. So 150 would work for Menzoberranzan itself provided that Bregan D'aerthe is self sufficient and I believe an outlaw band would have to be. But what of their presence in other Drow cities, throughout the underdark and extending up to the surface? If this is the case and they do have an extensive network and providing the distances involved, then you can times the numbers above by 10 or 20. And if you add sympathizers/associatess then you could add another 500-2000. Now I could be too judicious with these number or too generous. Let me know what you think, I may have left a dept or branch out.
Galad 02-25-07, 07:24 AM	Ok I will give this a shot. Supply sounds good. They wouldn't need many people but they would need a few to keep their larders full. Treasury I would have to disagree with. The person doing payroll is probably the head of the group or one of its second in commands and the person tracking the expenditures of each dept. is probably just one rather smart member of the dept or the leader of that dept. I do not think that there would be a separate member of the dept. to keep track of what they spend. Intelligence has way too low a number. I think that they have one of the wider bases of intelligence in the city probably second to none. Field men they probably have no less than 20 with some being in Mantol Derith but most spread among the armies of the nobles of the city. The rest of that dept sounds right. Clerics - do they even have clerics? I thought when they took in Verna Do'Urden they were happy b/c they finally got a cleric in their numbers. Now they might have a few Vhaerun clerics among them but I don't think they would have many and I think they would only support/head the leaders of the group. For healing I think that they call in favors with the noble houses that owe them, perhaps as part of their payment for helping in house wars. Any cleric nobles aside from Verna are snatched up by other Houses. Mages - With the number of mages running around Menzo, I would think that this number would be higher as well unless it does not include multiclass fighter/wizards. I would think 10-15 to be more accurate, maybe even as high as 15-20. Troops and recruitment sounds about right with troops leaning toward the side of 100. As for having a presence on the surface or in other cities, I don't really think they have much of a presence elsewhere except Mantol Derith and maybe Ched Nasad and that would only be a few spies in each place. All other information about other places would be paid for by the leaders of Bregan D'aerthe such as Jarlaxle dealing with the svirfneblin councillor from Blingdenstone. Well there is my 1 -2 cents.
HarperRanger 02-25-07, 08:13 AM	I'm not going to quote numbers but consider these thoughts... They do have cleric's in there ranks. Some very powerful. Case in point, the final duel between Drizzt and AE. After AE killed Drizzt, Jar got Rai-guy to rez Drizzt. If we are going by game stats also on this example and what followed in the books, one would assume that Drizzt did not take a rez level or exp. drain. R.A. even pointed out what a very powerful cleric spell was being used to rez Drizzt. And it was used by Jar's orders by a cleric of Lloth. How many other powerful clerics does Jar have running around like that? How many other talents does Jar have looming around? It seemed in battle tactic's, Bregan D'aerthe appeared to have the numbers to turn the tide of many battles. During house take over battles, members of BD in disguise totally switch sides in a battle and it makes a difference. You have to have the numbers to support that. In your game, take it as you want to. Jar and the gang seem to have an almost unlimited supply of money, supplies, magic items. I think you can be pretty free with what you want to bring into play in regards to this orginization. Keep in mind Bregan D'aerthe members are loyal to Jar and the orginization. They must be paid well. As far as Chaz Nasad being a "drow" city in current times, read the WotSQ series. HR
Zanan 02-25-07, 11:17 AM	Dunno why do you need support groups et al? They are, unless I am mistaken, not outlawed either. Bregan D'aerthe is just a mercenary company, and a good one at that. Nothing more, and nothing less. They do meddle here and there, but that does not mean that they are present in every - or that many other drow cities at all. Or have an outpost of a decent size here and there. Best example is actually provided in the Menzo box regarding the city itself and Mantol-Derith, and Skullport. Its contacts they have, some more, some less influental. These contacts can draw on local power (thief or mercenary companies etc.), but do not really belong to BD either. WotSQ gives a good example here, when one of the group's more powerful members, i.e. Valas Hune, takes Danifae to Sschindylryn. Valas has to deal with a merchant here who apparently sold goods to them beforehand, but cannot draw on any sympathisers or contacts. Which is a bit surprising, given that Sschindylryn is quite an open city these days. Just as food for thought.
Sabrar 02-25-07, 11:18 AM	As for having a presence on the surface or in other cities, I don't really think they have much of a presence elsewhere except Mantol Derith and maybe Ched Nasad and that would only be a few spies in each place. All other information about other places would be paid for by the leaders of Bregan D'aerthe such as Jarlaxle dealing with the svirfneblin councillor from Blingdenstone. Well there is my 1 -2 cents.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the input and I like your numbers better. "Presence" is the key factor determining how many Drow you will need to support your organization, the literature doesn't give us a clear picture of their goals or influences. And do they want to supply their services to other Drow cities as they do Menzoberranzan or are they doing that already? Another is what Jarlaxle's goals are, is he content to be just a leader of a small mercenary band or does he have bigger dreams? I can see some of his goals being put on hold while he was running around on the surface. But it makes sense for a power hungry Drow to want to expand his horizons. So my question is/can this organization be growing?
Sabrar 02-25-07, 12:09 PM	[QUOTE=Zanan;11584172]Dunno why do you need support groups et al? They are, unless I am mistaken, not outlawed either. Bregan D'aerthe is just a mercenary company, and a good one at that. Nothing more, and nothing less. The box set descibes them as unlawful-even by Drow standards so I was meaning they were outlaws not outlawed. I agree it is a bad choice of a word since it could lead to misconceptions. As for support groups, you wouldn't want outsiders to supply you the materials/services since you can tell an awful lot about a group just by what supplies they use - number of men fed, armament, etc. To further confound things you would order/get your supplies through several individuals to further mask your organization. As for the other support groups such as intelligence and blacksmith you could have people who serve dual roles but it would be more efficient to use people specialized in that area. Also you wouldn't want to risk your blacksmith on the front lines with the troops since it is hard to replace good people. That aside, I am starting to agree with you more and more on the numbers and influence as their "presence" in the underdark is either inflated or inaccurate. My question is could this group be wanting to expand? I can't see a power hungry Drow like Jarlaxle content with being just a leader of a mercenary band. After the events in WotSQ this would be an ideal time to do it.
Sabrar 02-25-07, 01:00 PM	How many other powerful clerics does Jar have running around like that? How many other talents does Jar have looming around? It seemed in battle tactic's, Bregan D'aerthe appeared to have the numbers to turn the tide of many battles. During house take over battles, members of BD in disguise totally switch sides in a battle and it makes a difference. You have to have the numbers to support that. In your game, take it as you want to. Jar and the gang seem to have an almost unlimited supply of money, supplies, magic items. I think you can be pretty free with what you want to bring into play in regards to this orginization. In a fantasy setting clerics replace med units so it stands to reason that he would have some around to take care of the troops as well as other things. To be as effective as it is BD would have to have a few more of these talented individuals around. I think you would be suprised just what a few well trained individuals are capable of. 15- 25 well trained Drow could tip the tide in the house take over battles. I don't think Jar would have to use all his troops in these engagements. Thats an interesting point, all the money, supplies, etc. would indicate BD as being very busy to earn all this. Would one City be enough to do this?
QuenthelsChampion 02-25-07, 03:12 PM	Well If you read some of the novels set in Menzo everytime a drow house fell Jarlaxle was there to scoop up the talent of the house. So some may be great fighters and great clerics. *spoiler* In Calimport he has influence in the underworld. and in Vaasa he is the leader of the Citadel of Assassins. He has influence and its hinted he has a few members around where ever he takes power. The Menzo box is outdated only because half the people in the set is dead some way or another. Entire houses are destroyed. If im not mistaken Do'Urdens house and Obloudra(sp?) are still in the box set. And both houses some of the survivors were taken in by Jarlaxle boosting their numbers.
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 03:26 PM	Between the ToT AND the Silence of Lolth, I would say his numbers have more then likely swelled dramatically since those events. Jarlaxle has figured out how to turn utter Chaos to his benefit at EVERY turn, so that is probably why he was destined to be 'blessed by Lolth'. He is EVERYTHING she could possibly hope for in one of her followers, EXCEPT for that fact that he doesn't even pay her lip service. In some weird way, I think she gets a kick out of that. He's not one of her faithful, but by his actions he furthers her portfolio at every turn. VERY chaotic, indeed. Also, someone compared Bregan D'aerthe to the Mafia, I believe, in the other thread. Perhaps they are even like the CIA? How many 'real' spies do you think that agency has? 150? The rest of the personel are just 'support'. They have contacts, liasons, and assets they can call on. Much like Jarlaxle, they try to preserve these, but every once in awhile they need to 'burn' an accept. No big, because they could just develop a hundred more. If the CIA or the Mafia 'asked' you to do them a favor, would you say no? Thats the kind of position I think Jarlaxle likes to put people in.
Sabrar 02-25-07, 09:34 PM	Well If you read some of the novels set in Menzo everytime a drow house fell Jarlaxle was there to scoop up the talent of the house. So some may be great fighters and great clerics. *spoiler* In Calimport he has influence in the underworld. and in Vaasa he is the leader of the Citadel of Assassins. He has influence and its hinted he has a few members around where ever he takes power. The Menzo box is outdated only because half the people in the set is dead some way or another. Entire houses are destroyed. If im not mistaken Do'Urdens house and Obloudra(sp?) are still in the box set. And both houses some of the survivors were taken in by Jarlaxle boosting their numbers. The noble houses will have the best fighters, clerics, & mages so this would be the best talents to draw from. Since House Baenre santions most house take overs this could lead to embarrasing situations because no noble can be alive to provide witness against an attacking house. So BD provides a service by taking the orphans in as well as reaping the benefits from it. I agree the box set is outdated but I believe the numbers quoted in it were accurate for that time frame. But after much deliberation and great info/ideas from you brilliant people out there as well as the novels, I conclude that this organization is growing, how fast is the question. I don't think BD has the numbers some have stated on here or even as I first thought but I believe this could change after the events in WotSQ and the return of the prodigal son.
Sabrar 02-25-07, 09:54 PM	Between the ToT AND the Silence of Lolth, I would say his numbers have more then likely swelled dramatically since those events. Jarlaxle has figured out how to turn utter Chaos to his benefit at EVERY turn, so that is probably why he was destined to be 'blessed by Lolth'. He is EVERYTHING she could possibly hope for in one of her followers, EXCEPT for that fact that he doesn't even pay her lip service. In some weird way, I think she gets a kick out of that. He's not one of her faithful, but by his actions he furthers her portfolio at every turn. VERY chaotic, indeed. Also, someone compared Bregan D'aerthe to the Mafia, I believe, in the other thread. Perhaps they are even like the CIA? How many 'real' spies do you think that agency has? 150? The rest of the personel are just 'support'. They have contacts, liasons, and assets they can call on. Much like Jarlaxle, they try to preserve these, but every once in awhile they need to 'burn' an accept. No big, because they could just develop a hundred more. If the CIA or the Mafia 'asked' you to do them a favor, would you say no? Thats the kind of position I think Jarlaxle likes to put people in. I think your on the money with the numbers swelling after the events in ToT and WotSQ. I like your CIA analogy and I think your right they wouldn't need many agents. Which brings up another question -Is Bregan D'aerthe just a mecenary band? Spying is not a mercenary's normal line of work. I can't think off the top of my head but can anyone else remember if they did any assassinations, organized crime schemes, etc. If so then it shows a versatility well beyond the capabilities of just mercenaries.
HarperRanger 02-25-07, 11:26 PM	I think the question you should ask yourself in your setting is what are BD's goals at the moment. Is it a single member from BD you are bringing in as an NPC on a quest for interaction with your players? How many member of BD do you plan to use? Are one of your NPC's applying for membership to BD after making a bit of a reputation? Or something like that? What I meant by freedom is what are your plans for BD? You have to make that happen for your players. Put a twist on things. Be as chaotic as they claim to be but as orginized as we all know they are. The novels haven't made clear what Jarlaxle's plans are for himself and BD and I don't think they ever will. I think R.A. and Wizards like to keep us guessing. Keeps them free to do whatever they want. Makes you free to do what you want in your setting too:D HR
Dark_beebles 02-26-07, 12:48 AM	One thing i will add..He has probably at least 600 or more easy. 1st point is during the war between Do`Urder and Hunnett he had 350 of his troops set up as House Baerne Soldiers... 2nd During the Road of the Patriarch..He had 400 or so inside the castle...Also, His Casters were setting up gates to bring in troops, food, fodder and other living items. Jarlalxe isnt stupid enough to send over 1/2 of his troops to a place unless the benefits are so outstanding that it cant be ignored. Like getting all of the items from Silverymoon or some artifacts for example. So I think that he has probably 800-1,000 troops in his command. All of which are at least 5th lvl, And his casters are probably average 10th from the ammount of magical gear, and items the guild use's and has. Influence is the big key with them, There is a reason Matron Baerne hired jarlaxle so many times in the past, and why Triel is afraid of them And why Quenthal didnt "punish" valas hune during the novels. People are afraid of them, Everyone in the underdark that knows of Bregan....When Jarlaxle can walk down the streets in his loud clacking boots..appearing unarmed, un-armored..and not get attacked..and everyone knows who he is..and can spot that cloak of his from a mile away. There is a good reason, Even House Nobles are that bold except maybe Gromph. As a side thing maybe Lolth lets them hang around because they keep things in balance? Or maybe she thinks they might go to the surface or Vhaerune? Who knows...Just my thoughs or ideas on the subject..
Zanan 02-26-07, 04:15 AM	Just to get this into line, the Menzoberranzan box is dated just before the year 1358 D.R. (Time of Troubles & Battle of Keeper's Dale). The history of House Do'Urden is placed in as general info, also given with a set time. Bregan D'aerthe is indeed a mercenary company, no thieves' guild, spy gang or the like. That they do have rogues and scouts and whatnot does not exactly matter in this respect. Current leader is Kimmuriel Oblodra, a survivor of the fallen House of Oblodra ... even though recent novels suggest that Jarlaxle may return to Menzo. Clergy ... that Rai-guy chap was a conundrum by any D&D-system's standards. For in AD&D there were no Elven (= Drow) cleric/mages, nor did Lolth allow any male to rise above 7th level. He cast Delayed Blast Fireball and by multi-classing rules (if we accept that drow were allowed to multi-class as cleric/mages), he'd have to be something like 13/14. In 3E, Lolth does not have any male clergy at all. Does not need to concern us, as his fate was already sealed. Most clerics seem to be former House priestesses, such as Vierna Do'Urden was for a while. Most likely of low power, as they will not really like the idea to be subservient to males. A possible alternative might be clerics of Zinzerena, the drow goddess of outcasts, assassins and illusion, who was said to stalk Menzoberranzan after the ToT. According to Demihuman Deities, it is Lolth in disguise though, gathering more divine worshippers.