Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 12:06 AM	Sorry is this is covered in some source or if it's just common sense and I'm too stupid to realize it. I was thinking that from what I've read about Calimshan in The Halfling's Gem, it seems to be very much like what the lands of Zakhara are described as. Both seemed to be based on Arabian cultures and what not and I was just wondering if there was indeed a connection. Like did the Calishites originally come from Zakhara or something?
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 12:08 AM	-Indeed, you are correct.
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 12:15 AM	-Indeed, you are correct. Woot! I suspected as much. Thanks much indeed Special K.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 12:19 AM	When the genies came over 8000 years ago, they came from Calimshan. They brought many of their slaves with them as well, most notably halflings, which were never seen in Faerūn before. Thats why I think Halflings are native to Zakhara. ;)
Rauric 01-16-08, 12:30 AM	Yeah. Zak was a waste that 2e dumped on th realms. But I dealt with it. Kept buying books.:D
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 12:37 AM	Thats why I think Halflings are native to Zakhara. ;) -I've always seen Halflings as nomadic desert people too. Perhaps it's cryptoamnesia from Dark Sun (which I never even played, mind you) Yeah. Zak was a waste that 2e dumped on th realms. But I dealt with it. Kept buying books.:D -Of all of the extraneous settings grafted onto Faerūn, Zakhara is probably the most well thought out. I would have given those honors to Kara-Tur, but there are too many glaring similarities between the Orient and it that I cannot ignore. Zakhara, on the other hand, isn't as bad, in that regard.
Old Sage 01-16-08, 01:18 AM	Calimshan is loosely flavoured by a variety of historical and literary Near and Middle Eastern sources, while Zakhara is a straight analogue of legendary and Hollywood Arabia. The lore attempts to paper over this crack are, unfortunately, as thin as you'd expect, and for the purposes of running a campaign in Faerūn, I think Zakhara [and Troy Denning's ill-considered Bedine] are best ignored.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 02:20 AM	Or you could just do what I did - shrink Zakhara down just a wee bit, and attach it to the end of Calimshan. :D It works out much better that way. And as an extra bonus, I got rid of Chult in the process! (thats down where Zakhara USED to be).
Stigger 01-16-08, 04:32 AM	Markus must be stopped... he might be giving the devs ideas. :P ;)
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 09:54 AM	I think the ideas of Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Anachrome, Maztica and whatever the other continents are called are a great idea. Why? Because just having Faerun is BORING. I wish in 4th they would have a new Oriental Adventures book with Kara-Tur as it's setting. I'de buy that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 01:20 PM	I think the ideas of Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Anachrome, Maztica and whatever the other continents are called are a great idea. Why? Because just having Faerun is BORING. I like it that there are other continents besides Faerun, but I don't like how a lot of them wind up being real-world analogues.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:28 PM	I like it that there are other continents besides Faerun, but I don't like how a lot of them wind up being real-world analogues. -Exactly. Having Maztica loosely based upon Mesoamerica is fine. Having Maztica mirror the specific events, right down to the smallest detail isn't cool. Same thing with Kara-Tur and Zakhara.
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 02:50 PM	Well of course I'de personally retune them to not be blatant rip offs but keep the flavor so to speak. Hint hint Wizards! Revive Oriental Adventures please!
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:53 PM	Well of course I'de personally retune them to not be blatant rip offs but keep the flavor so to speak. Hint hint Wizards! Revive Oriental Adventures please! -Eh, it's best if they don't. It's better to have good memories of a friend, then meet him after many years, and have him be a totally different person.
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 03:37 PM	-Eh, it's best if they don't. It's better to have good memories of a friend, then meet him after many years, and have him be a totally different person. But what if you want to play in said place?
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 03:38 PM	But what if you want to play in said place? -They still exist. -What I am getting at is it's probably better to have Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur exist as they do now, flaws and all, than having WotC do the 4e make over. Numerous people have already been dissatisfied with what happened to Faerūn, so it's preferable if the same things do not happen to Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara. -If you are interested in DMing in Kara-Tur, I guggest you check out MT's Kara-Tur Re-Dux thread.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 06:36 PM	Zakhara was perfect - it just needed to moved a little to make more sense (I've kept the Middle-Eastern cultures in a stright-line, to better explain their development). If you imagine the Shining South as a fantasy version of N. Africa (turned upside-down), then Calimshan becomes Morocco and everything makes sense. In the RW, N. African is considered Middle-Eastern, even though its on a different continent, because the cultures their are Muslim, not African. And I apologize once again to Rinon, whom I know HATES RW analogies. :P Kara-Tur just needs some tweaking - all the basic elements are there for a great, original setting. Play down the derivitive cr@p. and throw in more fantasy elements, and it could be the new 'in' place to adventure. Maztica needs an over-haul, no two-ways about it. I wouldn't ret-con out what has gone before, but I might describe the events somewhat differently. Anyhow, Ed Greenwood (:cloud9: ) will be detailing all of the realms outside of Faerūn proper, and the other continents will finally get some detail. If anyone can fix Maztica, it's Ed, so I have some high hopes in this regard. After nearly a century, the place could turn out to be FR's answer to Xendrik. :dancin: I wish in 4th they would have a new Oriental Adventures book with Kara-Tur as it's setting. I'de buy that.Mark my words, there WILL be one... maybe not official, but I'm going to take on 'hell and high-water' to make sure Kara-Tur gets the love it deserves. Markus must be stopped... he might be giving the devs ideas. :P ;)GOD! I hope so! :D I could so 'fix things'... but then again, thats my ego talking there... my FR makes 4e look like a 'tea party'. :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 06:59 PM	[ And I apologize once again to Rinon, whom I know HATES RW analogies. :P Apology accepted.:P
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 07:00 PM	In the RW, N. African is considered Middle-Eastern, even though its on a different continent, because the cultures their are Muslim, not African. -Genetically, the ruling castes are Arabic, and not indiginous African, as well. It all ties in to the Arabic empires (Caliphates?) of the Medieval Ages, and before.
Dark Wizard 01-16-08, 11:21 PM	Yay, another light bashing of the non-Faerunian continents. Zakhara is okay in my mind. I think Maztica is so bad it just doesn't register as a campaign setting to me, it's not dead to me, it wasn't even "never alive," it just never was. Or I would like to think of it as such. (The taint of Shar is strong there. ;) ) My personal pet peeve is Kara-Tur. I'm not sure what it is, but I get a strong 70s-80s low-budget, cheesy kungfu movie vibe from the setting, except there isn't anything flashy like kungfu visuals to Kare-Tur. So strip the cool aspect away and you just have a bunch of poorly dubbed, poorly acted guys on grainy film speaking nonsense lines. That is what Kara-Tur is to me. It was never alive, though I give it credit for an attempt at being. Kara-Tur seems like a senseless jumble of Asian-y things. I feel it doesn't adhere to either western or eastern fantasy (what admittedly little I know of it), it's sort of in this indecisive midway point. It also can't decide if it wants to be historically accurate or make-stuff-up fantasy. So in the end it ended up being not much of anything. I try to imagine what Kara-Tur would look like if it were made into a movie today (the film industries of several Asian nations are putting out some amazing period films today and even in the 80s), but I can't, that bad 80s non-film vibe is ever present. It's like it's hardwired into the setting or something. The 4E Realms does make me feel better about changing Kara-Tur wholesale.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 11:40 PM	Yay, another light bashing of the non-Faerunian continents. -It's not bashing. Think of it as a talk a close friend gives you when he/she notices your behavior is out of line.
Dark Wizard 01-17-08, 12:04 AM	Are you saying we're doing an intervention? Let's call Dr. Phil and Oprah, they'll get these settings straightened out.
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 12:07 AM	Are you saying we're doing an intervention? -Yes, that's exactly what we're doing! Let's call Dr. Phil and Oprah, they'll get these settings straightened out. -Hmm...I don't think we want to deal with them. Dial 867-5301, and see who picks up. Invite them.
Dark Wizard 01-17-08, 12:22 AM	-Hmm...I don't think we want to deal with them. Dial 867-5301, and see who picks up. Invite them. Hey wait, it's one of those phone dating numbers. Aww, shucks, that Karsus, he got me again. People who call those numbers are too busy pretending to be hot to be interested in the Realms, that is unless they really aren't as gorgeous as the voices make them out to be, then maybe... I tried the number on different area codes, I got some guy named Biff, customer service to a custom lawn decorations manufacturer, and a cat.
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 12:38 AM	Hey wait, it's one of those phone dating numbers. Aww, shucks, that Karsus, he got me again. People who call those numbers are too busy pretending to be hot to be interested in the Realms, that is unless they really aren't as gorgeous as the voices make them out to be, then maybe... -No, that would be 1-900-NERD-GIRL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmRSuYIL1zc). ;)
Ranger REG 01-17-08, 01:25 AM	I think the ideas of Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Anachrome, Maztica and whatever the other continents are called are a great idea. Why? Because just having Faerun is BORING. Yeah, can't always be eurocentric flavored settings all the time. I got more of that in my real life. :devil:
Dzwood 01-17-08, 01:28 AM	Lol Id love to see someone stat out dr Phil and Miz O!!!!!!! Makes my head hurt just thinning aobut it. So seriously Ed is going to flesh out the rest of the world for us?!?!?!? Where?? When?? How?? Ohh this could be sooooo darn cool
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 01:31 AM	So seriously Ed is going to flesh out the rest of the world for us?!?!?!? Where?? When?? How?? Ohh this could be sooooo darn cool :: Shrug :: -You've got me. -Personally, I think this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, it is a little silly that, even with Spelljamming existing, the majority of the world is 'unknown'. At the same time, however, I like the open-ended mysteriousness of having said landmasses unknown. It adds mystique.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 02:49 AM	Ed Greenwood is doing 50,000 words for the new FRCG, and a lot of what he is working on is info about the other 'unknown' lands, like Anchorome, Katashaka, and Osse. We will also be getting updates to the partially known ones, like K-T, Maz, and Zakhara. Soooo, looking at the size of his assignment, and the pg. count of the tome, I would say about half of Ed's lore might actually make the final cut. Now, what do you suppose they will cut-out first? It sure as hell isn't going to be whatever part of Faerūn he may be working on, thats for sure. So, we are promised these places, but we may still never get to see them. One good thing - since Ed is writing it either way, hopefully it will show up in a Web-Enhancement. Of course, by then, we will be paying for the DDi, so we get to pay for Ed's lore... TWICE. Isn't that a pleasant thought? :rolleyes:
Stigger 01-17-08, 03:44 AM	Just a little mister sunshine there, aren't you Markus... Personally, I don't like the idea of the world being 'unknown'. I can see cultures and such being unknown, but not that the landmasses themselves are a not known about. Just what's on them...
Dzwood 01-18-08, 03:49 AM	Ed Greenwood is doing 50,000 words for the new FRCG, and a lot of what he is working on is info about the other 'unknown' lands, like Anchorome, Katashaka, and Osse. We will also be getting updates to the partially known ones, like K-T, Maz, and Zakhara. Soooo, looking at the size of his assignment, and the pg. count of the tome, I would say about half of Ed's lore might actually make the final cut. Now, what do you suppose they will cut-out first? It sure as hell isn't going to be whatever part of Faerūn he may be working on, thats for sure. So, we are promised these places, but we may still never get to see them. One good thing - since Ed is writing it either way, hopefully it will show up in a Web-Enhancement. Of course, by then, we will be paying for the DDi, so we get to pay for Ed's lore... TWICE. Isn't that a pleasant thought? :rolleyes: MT got me started thinking...with DDI becoming the THE place for all things D&D will they close these forums and move them to DDI. I mean I know that other sites exist but still....Just a thought. Anyone heard for sure?
Stigger 01-18-08, 04:23 AM	Doubtful they'd shut down the forums... I was under the impression DDI was intended for a significantly different purpose, as in much more narrowly focused on D&D than these forums are ever likely to be.
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 04:28 AM	-And, DDI is...?
Stigger 01-18-08, 04:31 AM	Dungeons and Dragon Insider as far as I know... the successor to Dragon and Dungeon from what I've seen so far. We probably won't have a really clear idea of what exactly its supposed to be until 4e is launched.
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 04:32 AM	Dungeons and Dragon Insider as far as I know... the successor to Dragon and Dungeon from what I've seen so far. We probably won't have a really clear idea of what exactly its supposed to be until 4e is launched. -Oh, the online magazine. Gotcha.
Keryth 01-18-08, 02:12 PM	I like it that there are other continents besides Faerun, but I don't like how a lot of them wind up being real-world analogues. You mean like how Faerun is an analogue to Europe? No different. And I LOVE the Realms.
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 06:29 PM	Uh-oh... hope Rinon's not around.... :gah: Just a little mister sunshine there, aren't you Markus...Would you expect anything less? :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 06:46 PM	You mean like how Faerun is an analogue to Europe? No different. I disagree (and for that matter, so does the creator of the setting), but I don't feel like starting a debate.:)
Stigger 01-18-08, 07:42 PM	The cultural differences, racial and religious tolerance in particular, make that analogue very, very tenuous at best... Similar perhaps on the most superficial of levels, but nothing alike when it comes down to it.
Old Sage 01-18-08, 08:08 PM	The original, core part of the Realms is not analogous to our world, and our-world norms can't be assumed to apply. Some of the places, like Kara-Tur [which was a TSR add-on to Ed's Realms], are among those exceptions that are based on Earth, in their published forms, for various reasons... excepting the Shaar. Any given cultural fact about medieval or Renaissance Europe probably does not apply to the Heartlands: Ed's Realms is created to deliberately discourage assuming and instead encourage players to engage actively with the setting and find out its unique details and nature. Also, the influences on the Heartlands are far more from fiction than from history, so that reading the half-dozen most Realmslike fantasy authors will give you a better [though still very inaccurate] picture of the Realms than understanding any amount of European history. I'd recommend any scribe with an interest in such topics to read through Ed's April 13th '06 replies at Candlekeep, for his thoughts on the sources of inspirations for some of the areas mentioned here. They are required reading for any particular Realms devotee who wishes to have access to accurate facts as they've been determined by Ed himself. These replies clearly prove just how invalid some of the more "nonsense" claims actually are. And finally, consider this, from Ed's '06 replies:- "...but it should always be remembered that the Realms is NOT an analogy or copy of Earth; what we may see as medieval in some ways, and Renaissance in others, when looking at Faerūn, is inevitably seeing things from our point of view: the Realms may develop in very different ways than the real world did."
Ranger REG 01-19-08, 01:11 AM	And finally, consider this, from Ed's '06 replies:- "...but it should always be remembered that the Realms is NOT an analogy or copy of Earth; what we may see as medieval in some ways, and Renaissance in others, when looking at Faerūn, is inevitably seeing things from our point of view: the Realms may develop in very different ways than the real world did." Meh. Its' the only way we Earthers can relate to the world, despite the fact that the cultures seems to copy our medieval tech, including the cross-like swords. I mean if it is anything but earth-like, why not have the common longswords crafted like the Klingons'?
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:16 AM	You mean like how Faerun is an analogue to Europe? No different. And I LOVE the Realms. Nah, Faerun isn't that great of a analogue to Europe (Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, Turkey, and the Great Plains are certainly not in Europe !!!) Now Gyrax's Flaness, that is a good analogue to Europe.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:30 AM	You mean like how Faerun is an analogue to Europe? No different. And I LOVE the Realms. -An analogue? Hardly. Do certain areas have an 'X influence'? Yes, of course. -Fantasy, no matter how out there, and how unlifelike, or whatever, is based on what we know. So, when you dig down deep enough, in any fantastical setting, you are going to find...Terran influences.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:31 AM	-Fantasy, no matter how out there, and how unlifelike, or whatever, is based on what we know. So, when you dig down deep enough, in any fantastical setting, you are going to find...Terran influences. Fantasy is supposed to be based off Terran myths anyway.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:34 AM	Fantasy is supposed to be based off Terran myths anyway. -Which is why I said, no matter what it is, when you start digging, you are going to see influences from actual certain cultures/areas.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 02:16 AM	Now Gyrax's Flaness, that is a good analogue to Europe.played it for years, and I'm just not seeing it. :rolleyes:
XHereticX 01-19-08, 04:56 PM	played it for years, and I'm just not seeing it. :rolleyes: Well, I don't know much about Greyhawk, but I can see that the Empire of Luz=Nazi Germany. There are also many other parallels between Flaness states and European nations.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 08:43 PM	I'm fairly knowledgable about Greyhawk, and I wouldn't call it an analogue of Europe, either.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 10:36 PM	I'm fairly knowledgable about Greyhawk, and I wouldn't call it an analogue of Europe, either. Hey, I'm just basing my argument off of what Gary Gyrax himself intended for the continent. Whether this was actually executed or not is certainly up for question.
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 01:37 AM	FR is 100 times more an analogue then GH is, and FR isn't an analogue. In GH, even the continent is backwards from RW Earth! The Orientals are to the west - and the center of the main campaign Area has the 'Rovers' - a group of people very much like Amerinds. I don't recall that particualr group invading Europe - in fact, I think it was the other way around. The closest comparison I could make is that the Great Kingdom = Rome in its heyday, and like Rome, it fell HARD. However, all of the circumstances surrounding all of that were quite different (magic, undead, and other fantasy-type cr@p). I can look at the Realms and draw comparisons easily, but I have a very hard time doing that with GH. The main continent even had a Meso-America counterpart directly beneath it, very similar to Maztica. FR's got Chult, which is a lot closer to Africa then Hepmonland ever was, and thats the continent thats below Europe. Not that I'm pointing any fingers, Rinon, so don't break out your whip. ;) Interesting Fun Fact: I can't remember where this is from (Spelljammer?), but supposedly, Maztica was settled by interlopers from GH's Hepmonland! I remember coming across that when I was researching Maztica, and thought that was very cool. For once, the culture didn't come from RW Earth. :P
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 02:23 AM	Interesting Fun Fact: I can't remember where this is from (Spelljammer?), but supposedly, Maztica was settled by interlopers from GH's Hepmonland! I remember coming across that when I was researching Maztica, and thought that was very cool. For once, the culture didn't come from RW Earth. :P -Now, where'd they get Spelljammers? I'm under the assumption that they are fairly unadvanced, so...
Mr_Miscellany 01-20-08, 03:52 AM	....and for the purposes of running a campaign in Faerūn, I think Zakhara [and Troy Denning's ill-considered Bedine] are best ignored. I wouldn't say that, myself. In my campaign the PC Paladin (also Baron of the Stonelands) is an Aasimar from Zakhara. In character and in RL he doesn't know much about Calimshan, so it's fun for me to compare and contrast what he knows of Zakhara vs. what he doesn't know about Calimshan. That and he has no idea (yet) that the Bedine are descended from the lands of Zakhara. While on its face having Zakhara and Calimshan may seem redundant, as well as how the Bedine don't seem to 'fit' ....well it really all depends on how a DM uses what they're given.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 06:49 PM	Not that I'm pointing any fingers, Rinon, so don't break out your whip. ;) I won't.:) Although, I did mention in the General Forum what I thought about the Chult/Africa comparison (not necessarily put forth by you, btw). It's almost unfair to say that the very large, very diverse continent of Africa has it's equivalent in the smallish, jungle-filled penninsula of Chult. Interesting Fun Fact: I can't remember where this is from (Spelljammer?), but supposedly, Maztica was settled by interlopers from GH's Hepmonland! I remember coming across that when I was researching Maztica, and thought that was very cool. For once, the culture didn't come from RW Earth. :P I actually think that would be pretty cool! Even if it wasn't canon, I'd put it in my Realms.
Flicker 01-24-08, 06:07 AM	Well of course I'de personally retune them to not be blatant rip offs but keep the flavor so to speak. Hint hint Wizards! Revive Oriental Adventures please! Only if they manage to work out that Rokugan should have been left as it was, yes it's cool but its not a d20 system, its too story based, OA should IMHO be much more like the original setting from 1st/2nd ed
Flicker 01-24-08, 06:13 AM	Well, I don't know much about Greyhawk, but I can see that the Empire of Luz=Nazi Germany. There are also many other parallels between Flaness states and European nations. I presume you mean Iuz and sorry I can't agree, for one, as much as Nazi germany is reviled, most of what it did it tried to keep secret from the general populace, yes it stirred up genocidal hatred, but I don't recall roads of skulls etc, I think Iuz's empire goes closer to 'the abyss on the flanaess' as was used in one descriptor I think. Just a tuppence of thought re Calimsham/Zakhara, i think the major difference should be the way Genie's are treated, in Zakhara there is a level of reverance, while in Calimsham, i've always thought they are more reviled/feared for creating the desert?
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 08:53 AM	Just a tuppence of thought re Calimsham/Zakhara, i think the major difference should be the way Genie's are treated, in Zakhara there is a level of reverance, while in Calimsham, i've always thought they are more reviled/feared for creating the desert? -Correct. The Humans of Calimshan were enslaved by genies, and resented it. When they were freed, they didn't forget their bondage.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 11:04 AM	I presume you mean Iuz and sorry I can't agree, for one, as much as Nazi germany is reviled, most of what it did it tried to keep secret from the general populace, yes it stirred up genocidal hatred, but I don't recall roads of skulls etc, I think Iuz's empire goes closer to 'the abyss on the flanaess' as was used in one descriptor I think. I agree, and if one *must* compare a place in Greyhawk to a certain reviled regime (or its "ideals", at least), I think the Scarlet Brotherhood comes closer than Iuz.
MarkusTay63 01-24-08, 01:38 PM	With their agenda that they are the 'Master race', I would say thats pretty much on target. Now, if Iuz is anyone, he's Sauron and Mordor. -Now, where'd they get Spelljammers? I'm under the assumption that they are fairly unadvanced, so...The Dark Elves had them - probably before they became Drow. A working Spelljammer was found in one of the 'Caves of the Elders' (and the Elders were a group of Dark Elves that have since disappeared from around there.) There is a newer group that have arrived, that came over with the Dwarves, but they've only been there a few hundred years. As far as the Hepmonland thing goes, I think that fact was uncovered in the maztica thread (need to find that). Also, another group was brought over from Kara-Tur, so the Mazticans are actually a racially diverse lot. I have some lore buried somewhere concerning why the genie Lords fled Zakhara to Calimshan - if I can find it I'll post it here.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:49 PM	I agree, and if one *must* compare a place in Greyhawk to a certain reviled regime (or its "ideals", at least), I think the Scarlet Brotherhood comes closer than Iuz. Philosophically the Scarlet Brotherhood comes much closer, but politically the Empire of Iuz is in a similar position to the Nazi Regime. Gyrax himself designed it that way.
JaiaDrottsingr 02-03-08, 08:07 PM	Of course there's a connection. They're both deserts. Its placement is like passing over the Sinai Peninsula for the salt trade, or the Gobi Desert for silk (more particularly the Gobi, seeing as the Zhou bear a striking resemblance to the Chinese.). In a desert, there's gonna be nomads, and most villages and such will be near oases or rivers. Caravans will be the major form of travel, whether by camel or horse will depend on the distance.