Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnnype 04-25-07, 06:08 PM	FYI: Wizards just posted a nice 19 page free pdf on the city ans some of it's inhabitants including Nimor, one of the characters of the War of the Spider Queen series. I've only started reading it but I though others might appreciate it. You can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a Question for Paul Kemp if he's reading this: Do you make use of Chaulssin at all in your new series?
Dxzauvrinn 04-25-07, 11:27 PM	I'm reading it now. Looks good so far. I'll post again when I'm through.
Zanan 04-26-07, 01:51 PM	The "use ex priestesses and other females as harem and breeding puppets" - attitude just confirms to me that the dogma preached by the Vhaeraunians / the god himself is as hollow as it can get. No source - this fine piece included* - has ever presented anything other than a complete turnaround in power. Males rule, female obey, full stop. That's why I cannot see any point in having the deity running about any longer or use him that much. He's just the mirror version of Lolth's faith, genderwise. Hence I hope Lisa Smedman makes good use of the Lady Penitent series. *Edit: no irony or sarcasm intended, BTW.
DicipleofLolth 04-26-07, 08:40 PM	The only two drow gods of any use are Lolth and Eilistraee.....i hope Lisa Smedman kills off all the others.....
HxHunter 04-26-07, 10:22 PM	To johnypie: http://paulskemp.livejournal.com/ But I like Kiaransalee, she is more interesting than Velsharoon.
Crust 04-26-07, 10:45 PM	Very impressive web enhancement. I'd love to slip in that mini adventure in my Waterdeep campaign. What a nice surprise to see that convenient hook. :ayyyy!: And that picture of the city itself... I always envisioned it, but to see it in that perspective is interesting.
Lord Dracul 04-27-07, 02:46 PM	Any chance we can see stats on the Jaezred Chaulssin members, other than Nimor??
ericlboyd 04-27-07, 06:43 PM	Any chance we can see stats on the Jaezred Chaulssin members, other than Nimor?? The stats are given in brief in DoF in the appendix, I think. Flushing them out is a good idea for the Realms NPCs thread. --Eric
Green Giant 04-27-07, 06:48 PM	The stats are given in brief in DoF in the appendix, I think. Flushing them out is a good idea for the Realms NPCs thread. --Eric Hey thanks, more work. :rolleyes: (We all know who'll be fielding that request.) ;)
XHereticX 04-27-07, 11:20 PM	The only two drow gods of any use are Lolth and Eilistraee.....i hope Lisa Smedman kills off all the others..... agreed, and Kia should suffer an especially painful death at the hands of Orcus in my opinion. Anyway, nice web enhancement.
Lord Dracul 04-28-07, 02:44 PM	agreed, and Kia should suffer an especially painful death at the hands of Orcus in my opinion. Anyway, nice web enhancement. Bah. Vhaeraun is the best Deity the Drow could ever get. Down with Lolth. Down with Eilistraee. Down with Kiransalee. Down with the Ooze Lord.
Dxzauvrinn 04-28-07, 11:35 PM	Finally glad this web enhancement is up! It was excellent. You would think though that with followers as powerful as these Vhaeraun would be a lot more effective in his mission to take down and convert Lolth's followers. The Jaezred Chaulssin are easily the most powerful drow in Faerun and the patron fathers are some of the most powerful dragons.
Zanan 04-29-07, 04:05 AM	Bah. Vhaeraun is the best Deity the Drow could ever get. Down with Lolth. Down with Eilistraee. Down with Kiransalee. Down with the Ooze Lord. As in: another male dominated faith amongst the other ... let me count 148 out of 150? Aye right. D'x ... off to the Gate! There's blade work to be done! :cool: As for the Jaezred Chaulssin, I would argue that you are incorrect. For a) they are no drow (and thus should not be equated with them), and b ) we know next to nothing about the larger cities of the dark elves, e.g. Guallidurth. And if I ever finish my write-up of the Temple City of the Revenancer, you'll see what "powerful drow" actually means :D
Lord Dracul 04-29-07, 02:01 PM	As in: another male dominated faith amongst the other ... let me count 148 out of 150? Aye right. D'x ... off to the Gate! There's blade work to be done! :cool: As for the Jaezred Chaulssin, I would argue that you are incorrect. For a) they are no drow (and thus should not be equated with them), and b ) we know next to nothing about the larger cities of the dark elves, e.g. Guallidurth. And if I ever finish my write-up of the Temple City of the Revenancer, you'll see what "powerful drow" actually means :D Thats where you are wrong. They were Drow however, after they mastered the magics from their Shadow Dragon slavers, they became something else. If you read the WE, you would have noticed that tidbit of info. Next time, research a bit before makin yourself look foolish.
Zanan 04-29-07, 05:49 PM	Thats where you are wrong. They were Drow however, after they mastered the magics from their Shadow Dragon slavers, they became something else. If you read the WE, you would have noticed that tidbit of info. Next time, research a bit before makin yourself look foolish. Even if I tell utter rubbish, I'll never look foolish. But I won't look foolish here, for the Jaezred Chaulssin are no drow and that is what D'x referred to. Unless you want to compare the e.g. wild elves with the fey'ri with regard to e.g. the most powerful elves on Toril. By history, they are a drow-shadow dragon mixture, by rules they are heavily templated drow. Both versions are twice-templated, as you have the Shadow Draconic Drow on the one hand, and the Half-Shadow Dragon Drow on the other. That's not much different than to compare an average high level drow with a high level Half-fiend Bone Creature Drow. Hence my objection. Obviously, given the class levels of the rulers of the Jaezred Chaulssin (these Patron Fathers), D'x might have a point. But these are more or less individuals and who knows what the larger drow cities have in store, given the recent out-of-nothing appearance of high-level folk such as Danifae and Valas in the WotSQ novels.
Lord Dracul 04-30-07, 04:04 AM	Even if I tell utter rubbish, I'll never look foolish. But I won't look foolish here, for the Jaezred Chaulssin are no drow and that is what D'x referred to. Unless you want to compare the e.g. wild elves with the fey'ri with regard to e.g. the most powerful elves on Toril. By history, they are a drow-shadow dragon mixture, by rules they are heavily templated drow. Both versions are twice-templated, as you have the Shadow Draconic Drow on the one hand, and the Half-Shadow Dragon Drow on the other. That's not much different than to compare an average high level drow with a high level Half-fiend Bone Creature Drow. Hence my objection. Obviously, given the class levels of the rulers of the Jaezred Chaulssin (these Patron Fathers), D'x might have a point. But these are more or less individuals and who knows what the larger drow cities have in store, given the recent out-of-nothing appearance of high-level folk such as Danifae and Valas in the WotSQ novels. I said they were Drow, I didn't say they are Drow. Though, they do shift/polymorph to a specific Drow form, which means that they were indeed Drow before they became what they are now.
Zanan 04-30-07, 06:10 AM	I said they were Drow, I didn't say they are Drow. Though, they do shift/polymorph to a specific Drow form, which means that they were indeed Drow before they became what they are now. And I was replying to D'x's ... The Jaezred Chaulssin are easily the most powerful drow in Faerun and the patron fathers are some of the most powerful dragons. ... :cool: Which I tried to put into perspective - with regards to "powerful" drow. What they were before and where they came from does not exactly matter in such equations. As for shifting ... every half-decent wizard or druid can do this, as certain dragons can. Would you like to compare or balance them with a normal drow though? Hardly likely. Are they, as characters, more powerful than most drow of Faerûn? No doubt. Not least because of the downscaling of character levels due to the change to 3E.
QuenthelsChampion 04-30-07, 03:52 PM	I said they were Drow, I didn't say they are Drow. Though, they do shift/polymorph to a specific Drow form, which means that they were indeed Drow before they became what they are now. If you read carefully it never said they were drow. It said they were the half drow offspring of Shadow Dragons. It stated that they found a way to transform between dragon and drow form instead of constantly in the form of the dragon. So please read carefully before calling a well respected member of the forums foolish. **Spoiler**and besides their is no reason to claim Vhaerun the best god because he's in some ways already dead because Elis absorbed him in the new Lady Penitent series. If he does some way magically come back i will be very disappointed. QC
Lord Dracul 05-01-07, 04:42 AM	If you read carefully it never said they were drow. It said they were the half drow offspring of Shadow Dragons. It stated that they found a way to transform between dragon and drow form instead of constantly in the form of the dragon. So please read carefully before calling a well respected member of the forums foolish. **Spoiler**and besides their is no reason to claim Vhaerun the best god because he's in some ways already dead because Elis absorbed him in the new Lady Penitent series. If he does some way magically come back i will be very disappointed. QC With all due respect, it did say they were Drow and that they had experiments performed on them, before they mastered their slavers' magics. Thus, making them More Shadow Dragon than Drow. I have already stated such, yet its not fault if people wish to disregard those words. To further make my point, here is a quote from Eric L. Boyd: Shadow draconic drow are drow with the draconic template and the shadow template. The draconic template reflects the fact that they have an ancestor who was a dragon (i.e. they are mostly drow, but dragon's have a strong bloodline). On top of that, they have the shadow template from their long exposure to the Plane of Shadow. I am also aware that there are offspring from these Shadow Dragon/Drow. I never said there weren't any. If you had read more closely, you would see that the Revered Grandfather was one of the last surviving Shadow Dragon/Drow as he was one of the slaves. As for Vhaeraun, I believe he is not fully dead. So, I guess we wait until the other books come out.
QuenthelsChampion 05-01-07, 03:25 PM	A part of me really wants to agree with you but i just reread the history that they have on it and it says that they are half-dragon half-drow. Because of the strong bloodline they have so they aren't drow as they are half-drow. And i know that the Revered Grandfather is one of the original that where in the rebellion against the shadow dragons because i read WotSQ and i read this WE. So you can stop with the constant condensending attitude which proved me to say something in the first place. This is a forum were people discuss forgetten realms material and ask questions. Not many people sign on to be called foolish and have someone say to them that they don't read things properly. Thank you. QC
Mikayla 05-01-07, 04:27 PM	Zanan: The "use ex priestesses and other females as harem and breeding puppets" - attitude just confirms to me that the dogma preached by the Vhaeraunians / the god himself is as hollow as it can get. No source - this fine piece included* - has ever presented anything other than a complete turnaround in power. Males rule, female obey, full stop. That's why I cannot see any point in having the deity running about any longer or use him that much. He's just the mirror version of Lolth's faith, genderwise. Hence I hope Lisa Smedman makes good use of the Lady Penitent series. I agree on all points - well written Zanan. I believe that line you quoted also confirms that Vhaerun is really the god of "adolescent-males-who-are-afraid-of-their-mom-and-angry-at-the-girls-who-turned-them-down-for-dates-and-now-want-to-kill-them-to-prove-how-'powerful'-they-are", aka the God of Misogyny. ;) Despite that, I really like the Web Enhancement. Its lengthy, interesting, full of details and drawings and such and generally pretty high quality for something that is free. SPOILER ALERT FOR LADY PENITENT!!! I have to say that as much as I loathe Vhaerun, I do not believe that he is dead as stated at the end of the book. I would not mind seeing that change of course, and I think its entirely possible it will. However, I think we will see more of him before this is through.
Lord Dracul 05-01-07, 04:28 PM	A part of me really wants to agree with you but i just reread the history that they have on it and it says that they are half-dragon half-drow. Because of the strong bloodline they have so they aren't drow as they are half-drow. And i know that the Revered Grandfather is one of the original that where in the rebellion against the shadow dragons because i read WotSQ and i read this WE. So you can stop with the constant condensending attitude which proved me to say something in the first place. This is a forum were people discuss forgetten realms material and ask questions. Not many people sign on to be called foolish and have someone say to them that they don't read things properly. Thank you. QC Obviously, you haven't read what I have posted. Eric L. Boyd even said they were mostly Drow and he was the one that wrote the WE. You saying that he is wrong?? All I have posted is correct and Eric's words back me on this. Enjoy.
Red_Wizard 05-01-07, 04:39 PM	The "use ex priestesses and other females as harem and breeding puppets" - attitude just confirms to me that the dogma preached by the Vhaeraunians / the god himself is as hollow as it can get. No source - this fine piece included* - has ever presented anything other than a complete turnaround in power. Males rule, female obey, full stop. That's why I cannot see any point in having the deity running about any longer or use him that much. He's just the mirror version of Lolth's faith, genderwise. Hence I hope Lisa Smedman makes good use of the Lady Penitent series. *Edit: no irony or sarcasm intended, BTW. Well as much as I am not a fan of Vhaeruan over the others, I still think story wise he was the best hope of the Drow returning to the surface. Also, I will point out that it does specifically say in the WE that the JC have largely moved away from the worship of Vhaeruan, with Patron Xorthaul Bariath being one of the few remaining (head priest) of Vhaeruans worshipers within the group. This stems from The revered Grandfathers disdain of anything "pretending" to be more powerful than him. Also, I dislike the view that seems to be coming across here, and in the later post responding to yours, of a potentially sexist Faerunian pantheon. Within the Drow Pantheon, one of the few that is actually leaning one way or the other gender wise, the ones that favour the females outnumber the ones favouring males 3 to 1 (As Ghuanadaur does not care either way really for his followers).
Mikayla 05-01-07, 05:17 PM	The drow pantheon for Faerun is sexist and is favored for females. However, most other pantheon's in Faerun are dominated by males - for example, the Dwarven and Orc Pantheons are both dominated by males. The sexism in the dwarf pantheon is not as virulent as in the drow pantheon, but the major dwarven gods are all male (Moradinn, Clangedin, etc.). The Orcs are entirely male. Oh, and so are all the Gnome deities. And almost all the rulers of the nine-hells. And most of the demon princes (save for Lolth, who no longer is, and the newly created Malcanthet and Pale Night). And in the Mulhorandi pantheon there are 10 gods, but only three are female - and of course, as with most of Faerun's pantheons (save for the Drow and Halfling pantheons) the supreme god of the pantheon is male. And of the main Faerunian pantheon, only 5 of the 18 greater deities are female (though there is at least one of the others that has a female aspect). So, sexism is rampant in Faerun's cosmology, even if not expressly stated - the drow pantheon is just the one that goes against the prevailing tide, making it stick out more (and they are more violently attached to their sexism than most, save perhaps for the orcs).
Red_Wizard 05-01-07, 08:01 PM	The drow pantheon for Faerun is sexist and is favored for females. However, most other pantheon's in Faerun are dominated by males - for example, the Dwarven and Orc Pantheons are both dominated by males. The sexism in the dwarf pantheon is not as virulent as in the drow pantheon, but the major dwarven gods are all male (Moradinn, Clangedin, etc.). The Orcs are entirely male. Oh, and so are all the Gnome deities. And almost all the rulers of the nine-hells. And most of the demon princes (save for Lolth, who no longer is, and the newly created Malcanthet and Pale Night). And in the Mulhorandi pantheon there are 10 gods, but only three are female - and of course, as with most of Faerun's pantheons (save for the Drow and Halfling pantheons) the supreme god of the pantheon is male. And of the main Faerunian pantheon, only 5 of the 18 greater deities are female (though there is at least one of the others that has a female aspect). So, sexism is rampant in Faerun's cosmology, even if not expressly stated - the drow pantheon is just the one that goes against the prevailing tide, making it stick out more (and they are more violently attached to their sexism than most, save perhaps for the orcs). Simply having a majority of male deities, does not make any of the pantheons Sexist (excluding the drow). The majority of other gods have no stipulation on which gender can worship them and thats the point at hand. Not so however with the drow.This is the point I was making, and in my opinion the only one that matters. As per Zanans original comments, and your agreement, you both seemed annoyed over Vhaeruans worshippers choice to shun, enslave, and in general repress the females of their species. This however is more than understandable, given the treatment they have long suffered under Lolth, and later Eilistraee (As until recently she did not granted her male worshippers spells). Kiransalee to the best of my knowledge only allows females to excel under her aswell, and thus of the three truly sexist gods I can think of, they are all women represing males... Whether or not this changes your opinions on the matter is irrelevant to me, but i'd like to not have to suffer from shallow allegations, and unjustefiable remarks in the future.
Mikayla 05-01-07, 08:08 PM	I did not make any allegations or remarks towards you - my "allegations and remarks" were made towards the pantheons of Faerun, which, though your opinion may differ, are sexist - they are not as overtly sexist as the drow pantheon, to be sure, but they are sexist none-the-less in their very high ratio of male to female gods, the fact that most of the pantheons are headed by males, and that the majority of greater gods in the larger Faerunian pantheon are male. I readily acknowledge that most of these religions allow male and female priests and that Faerun is far less sexist than, say, our own real-life religions, many of which do not allow female priests nor provide for any female divinity. Still, the Faerunian pantheons are sexist in their composition, and while on an individual basis their sexism is not as reprehensible as that of the drow pantheons, taken as a whole (with almost every pantheon dominated by males) it is quite telling. Its inherent in the nature of the beast though - this has been a 'boy's game' since the beginning. While I appreciate the efforts to reduce the sexism over the last decade or so, the vestiges of the early days are not so easily wiped away. C'est la vie.
QuenthelsChampion 05-01-07, 09:58 PM	Obviously, you haven't read what I have posted. Eric L. Boyd even said they were mostly Drow and he was the one that wrote the WE. You saying that he is wrong?? All I have posted is correct and Eric's words back me on this. Enjoy. Well obviously you didnt read what I said because not only did i ask for you to stop talking down to me. All i said was that in the brief history I did not read anything about most of them being drow. I never said you were wrong just asking on where you found the info like a page number or a general page or something. I didn't ask to be talked down to thank you very much. QC
Red_Wizard 05-01-07, 11:14 PM	I did not make any allegations or remarks towards you - my "allegations and remarks" were made towards the pantheons of Faerun, which, though your opinion may differ, are sexist - they are not as overtly sexist as the drow pantheon, to be sure, but they are sexist none-the-less in their very high ratio of male to female gods, the fact that most of the pantheons are headed by males, and that the majority of greater gods in the larger Faerunian pantheon are male. I readily acknowledge that most of these religions allow male and female priests and that Faerun is far less sexist than, say, our own real-life religions, many of which do not allow female priests nor provide for any female divinity. Still, the Faerunian pantheons are sexist in their composition, and while on an individual basis their sexism is not as reprehensible as that of the drow pantheons, taken as a whole (with almost every pantheon dominated by males) it is quite telling. Its inherent in the nature of the beast though - this has been a 'boy's game' since the beginning. While I appreciate the efforts to reduce the sexism over the last decade or so, the vestiges of the early days are not so easily wiped away. C'est la vie. I wasn't suggesting you were making any remarks towards me, so if that impression was given I am sorry. But my opinion stands that the pantheons are not sexist. I'm more than certain the designers did not sit down around a table one night and say "Gee I wonder in what way we can make females inferior", and thus embarked on a continueing quest to do belittle the opposing gender. Also, while I do not personally know Ed, i'm am fairly content in stating that in his original plans for the realms, he had neither gender, nor male superiority in mind for the designing of his creation. The fact that not only his most literated character follows a powerful (and in most ways the superior realmsian) female god, but was also in turn for a span of many years in his life transformed into a female, only goes to further solidify my views on this. Add to this if you will, the example of a room filled with people, and the chances of one gender favouring another ratio wise, do you then suggest that this is a sexist situation? Is it sexist to have a womens pregnancy group favouring a majority of females? No it is not. The very defintition of Sexist is "...discrimination against people based on their sex rather than their individual merits". This is not, was not, and never will be the case amongst the gods of the realms, or the designers who invisioned them. The drow pantheon do practise sexist acts, but that is soly flavour, and not a direct representation of the unified beliefs of anything else to do with this setting. My reasoning for getting behind this so ademently now, is the continued state of rediculousness that people seem to bring themselves too, in some vain need to get up on the proverbial soap box and scream something invalid based on flawed, or incomplete facts. Whether this proclamation be Sexism, Racsism, Predudice, or anything inbetween it does not matter, and in most cases is unwarrented. I do not say you're foolish (as some above might) simply that your reasoning on the matter is horribly flawed.
Zanan 05-02-07, 04:25 AM	Rightio, let's not stray too off topic here. I would doubt that the Wizards have the pantheon's meant to be "sexist" in any way. There is, if you check the books, a certain male dominance not just in deities, but also in respective high clerics. Take any book you like and check it. I would doubt that this is intentionally either. As for Chaulssin's drow-dragons. Those living in Chaulssin are no longer "drow", and whatever they were in days gone by is of no concern if you want to compare them to the drow running about these days. That's all I have to say in this respect. Regarding Vhaeraun ... what irks me is that in the sourcebooks the Dogma is given as showing more equality when it comes to sharing power - which would be a good start - yet, his priesthood is essentially "male only" (those seducted priestesses don't really count, IMHO). The novels (WotSQ) underline this impression, especially when Vhaeraunians come up with lines like "creating the right order of things, regarding males and females". You wonder what "right" refers to, don't you? Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not sticking out my head for feminism in the Realms (which wouldn't be a bad thing given the first paragraph of my reply). I do stick out my head for keeping a few non-comformist faiths which are somewhat distinct from the rest. With regards to drow, it is the fact that all female deities favour female priesthoods. That irks the drow male public and any drow player who wants to play a cleric (there are somesuch on offer and one does not need to be a cleric any longer to cast divine spells - archivist). Obviously, the Vhaeraunian work against the "tyranny" of the Lolthites and after centuries of oppression, their priestly male dominance is understandable - but IMHO Vhaeraun would gain far more support if he was not as entirely anti-female as his followers appear to be. So again I stick my head out saying that someone who has his clerics work against his dogma (which might have changed) is of no real use, as his focus is too limited. Much like Shevarash's. We'll have to wait and see what happens to him and the rest of the drow deities though. A CN drow deity with interest in both Underdark and surface (e.g. someone like Zinzerena) might be a better option for renegades. In any case, there are 150odd faiths on Toril to chose from and I doubt that there aren't any for even the most selective of players.
Krash 05-02-07, 08:31 AM	I did not make any allegations or remarks towards you - my "allegations and remarks" were made towards the pantheons of Faerun, which, though your opinion may differ, are sexist - they are not as overtly sexist as the drow pantheon, to be sure, but they are sexist none-the-less in their very high ratio of male to female gods, the fact that most of the pantheons are headed by males, and that the majority of greater gods in the larger Faerunian pantheon are male. I readily acknowledge that most of these religions allow male and female priests and that Faerun is far less sexist than, say, our own real-life religions, many of which do not allow female priests nor provide for any female divinity. Still, the Faerunian pantheons are sexist in their composition, and while on an individual basis their sexism is not as reprehensible as that of the drow pantheons, taken as a whole (with almost every pantheon dominated by males) it is quite telling. Its inherent in the nature of the beast though - this has been a 'boy's game' since the beginning. While I appreciate the efforts to reduce the sexism over the last decade or so, the vestiges of the early days are not so easily wiped away. C'est la vie. The gods of Faerûn don't have a gender. They can (and do) appear as both male and female. -- George Krashos
Lord Dracul 05-02-07, 10:22 AM	Well obviously you didnt read what I said because not only did i ask for you to stop talking down to me. All i said was that in the brief history I did not read anything about most of them being drow. I never said you were wrong just asking on where you found the info like a page number or a general page or something. I didn't ask to be talked down to thank you very much. QC I believe that I was making a point and while you might think I was talking down to you, was far from the truth. As I said, I was making a point. In their history, it stated that the clan of Shadow Dragons enslaved the Drow of Chaulssin and performed experiements on them. Centuries after their enslavement, the Drow of Chaulssin mastered their slavers' magics and reclaimed their city. Granted, their draconic bloodline overrides their base race however, they are essentially still Drow as stated in the quote by Mr. Boyd.
Mikayla 05-02-07, 01:22 PM	Red Wizard: The lack of express intent by the designers to create a sexist pantheon or pantheons does not eliminate the sexism inherent in the pantheons they created. Sexism, racism, indeed discrimination in general seems to come naturally to human beings – its diversity that takes work. As a civil rights activist for the last 5 years I’ve seen many well-meaning folks enact policies, take actions or develop organizations that have some inherent bias – not because they planned for the bias – but because they did NOT plan to eliminate it. Diversity and equality take work. Now, as to your example of the room – its not applicable. There are no “chances” here – the gods in the Faerunian pantheon were not selected randomly, they were created by a small group of designers. This group of designers is largely male, and overtime, they have selected a group of “gods” to have power in Faerun who are – gasp – largely male. They may not have set out to be sexist, but the end product is. If I took a group of white people and told them to pick folks for positions of authority and responsibility for the whole world, and they could make up any folk they like to do the job, and they picked an overwhelming majority of whites over non-whites, that would be racism even if they never sat down and expressly decided to do it that way. Now, as to this from George Krashos: The gods of Faerûn don't have a gender. They can (and do) appear as both male and female. Well, if that’s true, then it reflects even more poorly on the choices made by the designers – if the gods do not have gender, why are the vast majority of powerful ones (Greater Gods) in the main pantheon portrayed as male (18 to 5 ratio by my count)? You have a pool of 23 people of greatest power, all without gender according to you – and yet 78% of them are portrayed as male? Meanwhile, female gods don’t start appearing in equal numbers to male gods (despite their apparent lack of gender) until drop down from the most powerful bunch to the Intermediate and Lesser gods. In addition, the leaders of all but two of the pantheons are male (the two being the halfling pantheon and the drow pantheon). That speaks highly of the Faerun-pantheon (perhaps its not sexist) but poorly of the designers (who are looking more sexist if your statement holds true). And just a note - having followed the Realms for a long time (as I am sure you have, being a designer) - I've read about many of the deities changing form into the opposite sex, but they all seem to have a base or preferred gender. Rather like the tale of the norse god Loki who transformed himself into a cow to distract a giant and ended up getting pregnant and giving birth to Odin's horse, Sleipner. Loki took the form of a female (cow anyway) and even became a "mom" but no one would seriously contend that the god Loki is not male - he just has the ability to shape change. Now, as a girl and as a gamer for about 30 years now I found D&D to be quite sexist in the beginning but I also found D&D made huge strides in that regard. Things are much, much better than they were before. And, though I do not know Ed or the other designers, I happen to think (having read Ed’s writings) that Ed is among the very very best of game designers when it comes to issues of gender and sex and sexual orientation. His recent writings about Eilistraee and the “change dance” are fantastic. But ... there is still sexism inherent in the game, as noted by Zanan (and I) previously. When I, as a girl, open up a book like Faiths & Pantheons what I see is a bunch of men in power – put there by a bunch of male game designers. Do I think they had sexism on the mind when they made up these gods? No, of course not – I don’t think they thought about it at all – and that is the very problem. We come from a culture that has a thousands of years of history of female subjugation by males – and so overcoming the tendency to put an overwhelming number of males (or male aspects, if they are all gender-less) in positions of power rather than an equal mix takes conscious thought – as I said, diversity takes work. Defeating sexism, even ourselves, takes conscious thought. So, Red Wizard, I’ve responded to your posts in an intellectual fashion using reason to make my points – you, on the other hand, have referred to me and my position as “shallow” “unjustifiable” “ridiculous” “flawed” “vain” etc. Those are not arguments, they are just insults. If you wish to continue this debate, by all means, I encourage you to do so – but lets do it through PMs and I would ask you to leave the hyperbole behind and make your points with reason, not insult.
Red_Wizard 05-02-07, 03:19 PM	Red Wizard: The lack of express intent by the designers to create a sexist pantheon or pantheons does not eliminate the sexism inherent in the pantheons they created. Right off the bat I want to again reiterate that it can not be sexist if no malicious, or discriminatory intent is there to begin with. A larger portion of one gender over the other, is not Sexist simply because the numbers vary, it merely means that the randomness inherent in the creation leaned one way over another. Also, I will point out that the realms creators have taken a great many of the Deities from other existing pantheons (Many of which are or were real world religions at one time or another), and simply translated them directly, seeing no reason to change a gender simply because it increased the male count amongst the divine. Sexism, racism, indeed discrimination in general seems to come naturally to human beings Agreed. – its diversity that takes work. As a civil rights activist for the last 5 years I’ve seen many well-meaning folks enact policies, take actions or develop organizations that have some inherent bias – not because they planned for the bias – but because they did NOT plan to eliminate it. Diversity and equality take work. While I agree above that discrimination comes naturally, I disagree in that everyone is born equal to everyone else. Discrimination is what is needed in many cases (though I see it more as picking the qualified for the job at hand). I am sure you'll wish to oppose this point, however I will point out that I am not one who sees race, gender, disability or anything in between. If twenty women came for an interview, and one man, and the position called for 5 people, I won't hire the man simply because he is there. Nor would I hire the women if the roles were reversed. The genitals we have do no dictate what a person can do, so it is foolish to put someone in any position solely based on that fact. Yet it happens time and again, as there are many who scream equality, yet can't possibly give more than a passing thought to why it doesn't work. Now, as to your example of the room – its not applicable. There are no “chances” here – the gods in the Faerunian pantheon were not selected randomly, they were created by a small group of designers. This group of designers is largely male, and overtime, they have selected a group of “gods” to have power in Faerun who are – gasp – largely male. Well Gasp, it would seem that the very basis for your argument here is sexist, as you are assuming that men will only make male characters/ made male characters solely on the basis they are male. Because the majority turned out to be male, does not make the designers, their intentions, or the pantheon Sexist. Also, when looking at the pantheon solely from an in world point of view, the room analogy makes perfect sense. The gods in canon (not saying designers creation here) are as random as a room of people. And a room of people is not sexist in any way. They may not have set out to be sexist, but the end product is. How, by the very definition of the word, can you equate majority to mean sexism? When no superiority complex comes into play, it can not be sexist. You need to have one gender believing themselves to be superior to the opposite one for the term to be valid. As good example is the military. There are not many women in the military, but the group on a whole is not sexist. Some may share sexist views within the military, or enforce sexist rules, but it is not a sexist organization, as it is solely a collection of people. In order to have sexism, one must have both tangibility and superior thoughts, not simply a lucid concept, or a majority. If I took a group of white people and told them to pick folks for positions of authority and responsibility for the whole world, and they could make up any folk they like to do the job, and they picked an overwhelming majority of whites over non-whites, that would be racism even if they never sat down and expressly decided to do it that way. This example would have to be analyzed further to be valid. Because if you had a simple 'redneck' farmer, a stereotypical black male rapper, a Chinese baker, and a Middle eastern PHd holding Physics major, then the choice of position would be easier to make. You are again assuming that everyone is equal for all positions, and that is not the case. Also, if you were to suggest that everyone was equal in such a selection, it would then become a first come first serve situation, an thus anyone might qualify. (I say this as when picking someone for a position, the people doing the choosing must also have equal knowledge on the matter to which their selection is coming from) Then, and only then could you begin to decide whether or not a selection was Sexist, or racist. One can only state this if the first person to come through was of a differing colour from the interviewer, and was skipped, and the next the same colour and received the job. Well, if that’s true, then it reflects even more poorly on the choices made by the designers – if the gods do not have gender, why are the vast majority of powerful ones (Greater Gods) in the main pantheon portrayed as male (18 to 5 ratio by my count)? You have a pool of 23 people of greatest power, all without gender according to you – and yet 78% of them are portrayed as male?[quote] Perhaps their personality leans more to the brash overbearing male perspective that is stereotypically portrayed in most venues. Or perhaps they were going for a feel of the pantheons we are familiar with already from history and literature in which they have been male dominant. Something still isn't sexist without the perceived superiority backing the creation. And unless you can prove beyond a doubt this is the case, your argument can not hold water on specualtion and opinion alone. [quote]Meanwhile, female gods don’t start appearing in equal numbers to male gods (despite their apparent lack of gender) until drop down from the most powerful bunch to the Intermediate and Lesser gods. In addition, the leaders of all but two of the pantheons are male (the two being the halfling pantheon and the drow pantheon). That speaks highly of the Faerun-pantheon (perhaps its not sexist) but poorly of the designers (who are looking more sexist if your statement holds true). Also note that the most powerful god, to which all the others derive their power from is Mystra, and she is and always was very much female. Also, she has not taken male form, and has on many occasions sought out and used male worshipers. And just a note - having followed the Realms for a long time (as I am sure you have, being a designer) - I've read about many of the deities changing form into the opposite sex, but they all seem to have a base or preferred gender. From a lore standpoint there is nothing wrong with this, as I am sure many people, including yourself would prefer being one gender or the other. This is not a sexist statement, merely an observation, that based on the positives and negatives of both sexes, one can decide which appeals more to them. Now, as a girl and as a gamer for about 30 years now I found D&D to be quite sexist in the beginning but I also found D&D made huge strides in that regard. Things are much, much better than they were before. And, though I do not know Ed or the other designers, I happen to think (having read Ed’s writings) that Ed is among the very very best of game designers when it comes to issues of gender and sex and sexual orientation. His recent writings about Eilistraee and the “change dance” are fantastic. Though in truth you are gender biased towards the female side of things, and something you might find appealing, or a good step in one direction, may in truth be a poor decision on the designers part. But ... there is still sexism inherent in the game, as noted by Zanan (and I) previously. When I, as a girl, open up a book like Faiths & Pantheons what I see is a bunch of men in power – put there by a bunch of male game designers. Do I think they had sexism on the mind when they made up these gods? No, of course not – I don’t think they thought about it at all – and that is the very problem. But it isn't a problem. It doesn't hurt you, belittle you, affect you physically, or mentally in any way. Reading sexism between the lines is inherently your fault, not the designers. Unless something is solely directed towards you, or in some way blatantly offends, and intends to offend, it is no ones issue besides your own. We come from a culture that has a thousands of years of history of female subjugation by males – and so overcoming the tendency to put an overwhelming number of males (or male aspects, if they are all gender-less) in positions of power rather than an equal mix takes conscious thought – as I said, diversity takes work. Defeating sexism, even ourselves, takes conscious thought. While I do not deny that subjugation has happened, and in some ways still happens, the tendency for over exaggeration, and over compensation is also a trait as humans most yet suffer from. I have several times lost to a women in a work position, simply for the companies legal obligation to fill a gender quota to keep activists happy, and off companies backs. No one wants a law suit, but there will always be the extremists there to pounce on any little perceived slight to their (often misguided) beliefs. So, Red Wizard, I’ve responded to your posts in an intellectual fashion using reason to make my points – you, on the other hand, have referred to me and my position as “shallow” “unjustifiable” “ridiculous” “flawed” “vain” etc. Those are not arguments, they are just insults. They are not insults, nor were they directed towards you in particular. They are/ were meant as generalized remarks, to a poor state of existence, where one must walk on eggshells with their words and actions to avoid lawsuits over something that is and never was there. Your views are still all of the above in my opinion, but I feel without an in person sit down ( and perhaps even then), dialogs such as this will only end with (Again in my opinion) you not budging from your views on the matter. While I do not feel any of my previous posts were lacking in an explanatory sense, with any luck you'll find this one more to your liking. p.s. I tried sending this in a PM, but your inbox is full. Hence posting it here.
Mikayla 05-02-07, 03:49 PM	You could have posted "Hey, your PM box is full" instead. Anyway, the bulk of your post revolves around the fact that the perception of discrimination can occur (but discrimination is not present) when the most qualified people for the job and such are not equally distributed - say the men are all the most qualified, so they get hired; it looks discriminatory, but its not. However, this is not that case - there was no pool of applicants for the job of "Faerun's gods" - they were made up out of whole-cloth by the designers. They did not "pick the best qualified" - there were no "qualified" - they are fiction. And yes, sexism can and does exist without express intent. Your room analogy is simply flawed - if a group of men is given the task to create the folks who will rule the world, and they create 78% men, its sexist. Men have chosen men for power rather than an equal distribution. And the most powerful god in the Faerunian cosmos is not Mystra, its Ao, who appears to be male. There is some evidence he may have a superior, and from what I've read, that superior probably has a male appearance also. As to the Mulhorandi pantheon, which is Egyptian, this is true - they did not design those, they just chose the pantheon. RW: But it isn't a problem. It doesn't hurt you, belittle you, affect you physically, or mentally in any way. Actually, yes it does hurt me and belittle me - those are my subjective interpretations and I would not be spending my time writing all this if I was not affected by the choices the designers have made. I love role-playing adventure games, but it hurts me to see that women are routinely and systematically marginalized in them. Things have been improving, but things are also not equal yet. RW: While I do not deny that subjugation has happened, and in some ways still happens, the tendency for over exaggeration, and over compensation is also a trait as humans most yet suffer from. I have several times lost to a women in a work position, simply for the companies legal obligation to fill a gender quota to keep activists happy, and off companies backs. The tendency I see is for men to deny the discrimination women face in almost all facets of life in our culture. And when they have "lost" to a woman in anything, they think that is proof positive discrimination no longer exists - but that is just not so. RW: No one wants a law suit, but there will always be the extremists there to pounce on any little perceived slight to their (often misguided) beliefs. Well, if believing people should be equal is misguided regardless of gender, then misguided I am! And proudly so. RW: While I do not feel any of my previous posts were lacking in an explanatory sense, with any luck you'll find this one more to your liking. It is much more to my liking, thank you. :)
Mikayla 05-02-07, 03:50 PM	P.S. PM box is now cleared. :)
GothicDan 05-02-07, 04:15 PM	Sorry to butt in (wait, no I'm not!), but discussions like this tend to catch my interest! Red Wizard: The lack of express intent by the designers to create a sexist pantheon or pantheons does not eliminate the sexism inherent in the pantheons they created. Sexism, racism, indeed discrimination in general seems to come naturally to human beings – its diversity that takes work. As a civil rights activist for the last 5 years I’ve seen many well-meaning folks enact policies, take actions or develop organizations that have some inherent bias – not because they planned for the bias – but because they did NOT plan to eliminate it. Diversity and equality take work. Fear towards and bias against those who are "different" is a reaction that's developed naturally in all living beings through millions upon millions of years of evolution. While it's certainly a laudable goal to eliminate much of the most destructive and offensive manifestations of these reactions, I do not think it possible (nor necessarily beneficial) to do so entirely. As you said, diversity an equality take work, largely because they're mutually negating in the extreme. I find balance (of both these things and life in general) to ultimately be the "best" policy. Now, as to your example of the room – its not applicable. There are no “chances” here – the gods in the Faerunian pantheon were not selected randomly, they were created by a small group of designers. This group of designers is largely male, and overtime, they have selected a group of “gods” to have power in Faerun who are – gasp – largely male. That's not sexism, because sexism, though. Dictionary.com gives: 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women. To define whether or not it's sexism or just chance, we'd have to know the REASONS for why they chose those male deities (if it was based on traditional stereotyping, or as a way of actively discriminating against females). They may not have set out to be sexist, but the end product is. If I took a group of white people and told them to pick folks for positions of authority and responsibility for the whole world, and they could make up any folk they like to do the job, and they picked an overwhelming majority of whites over non-whites, that would be racism even if they never sat down and expressly decided to do it that way. But, again, that excludes all of the other factors for their decisions. What if those same individuals only got to have information on the merit and professional background of the candidates, and had to choose without actually knowing their ethnicities, and still picked an overwhelming number of white people? It seems a little harsh to cry racism or sexism without knowing the myriad reasons that went into the decision-making process. That's reactionary to the point of actively antagonizing people rather than actually making them logically analyze a situation. Well, if that’s true, then it reflects even more poorly on the choices made by the designers – if the gods do not have gender, why are the vast majority of powerful ones (Greater Gods) in the main pantheon portrayed as male (18 to 5 ratio by my count)? Well, let's take a look at the Greater Gods. I'm going to exclude the Elemental Ones for obvious reasons. Female: Chauntea, Mystra, Shar, Sune Male: Bane, Cyric, Lathander, Oghma, Silvanus, Talos, Tempus, Tyr That's 4 vs. 8. BUT it should also be noted that three of those females deities are both mythologically the first and primal divinities of Faerun and helped mold all of creation itself (with Selune, of course). And they are markedly more powerful than all of the other male deities, with Mystra in particular possessing an overwhelming influence and might as portrayed in both sourcebooks and novels. So, I think that makes up for the disparity in actual numerical representation; you can have as many deities of either gender as you wish, and it doesn't make a difference if they're not powerful and important. To take things a step further, let's look at the Intermediate deities. Male: Gond, Helm, Ilmater Female: Beshaba, Mielikki, Selune, Tymora, Umberlee More females, there (5 vs. 3), with Selune being on the edge of a Greater Goddess herself, and with Tymora and Beshaba once having been combined as a Greater Goddess (Tyche). Now, let's look at a non-human pantheon - the Elves, for example. Greater Gods first. Male: Corellon Larethian Female: Angharradh Corellon has been depicted as being hermaphroditic, particularly in older lore. I think to help balance his more masculine representation in FR, Angharradh was thus created (and to give a nod to the triple-goddess tendencies witnessed in some real life polytheistic cultures). Now, to detract from the perceptions of an overwhelming male presence among divine affairs, just take a look at the most notable and powerful divine servitors: the Chosen. While Elminster may be the most (in)famous Chosen of Mystra to readers, he's neither the most personally powerful or influential. The Seven Sisters as a unit are seven of the most powerful people in the world, many of them with political ties and influence. The only other male Chosen I can think of are Khelben and Sammaster, both fo which are out of commission. As for other females, you have the Masked One, the Srinshee (perhaps the most powerful Elf currently alive in the Realms), etc.; and the Magister is currently a female, as well. The female Chosen of Silvanus is the most powerful druid in the world, in the Emerald Enclave. Queen Amlaruil is the only Elf who could potentially give the Srinshee a run for her money. She effectively commands the entire Elven race in Faerun (with a few hold outs, typically isolated wood elves on mainland Faerun), and more than that, she is genuinely respected and loved by the vast majority of them (even Sun Elves!) She is also the Chosen of the ENTIRE SELDARINE (NOT just Corellon, who alone is a DvR 19 deity, equal to Mystra). And the Lady Dragonrider Askhahala Durothil is effectively the most powerful, legendary guardian of Evermeet, a female Fighter of 20th level, if I remember correctly - which makes her the highest level Elven Fighter printed in FR lore up until that time, when demihuman level restrictions were still in effect). Erevan Ilesere's Chosen is a female, and more. While there ARE male Chosen running around (Elminster, Fzoul, formerly Gilgeam, Deneir), the female Chosen seem to be slightly more prevalent and personally powerful. Now, as a girl and as a gamer for about 30 years now I found D&D to be quite sexist in the beginning but I also found D&D made huge strides in that regard. Things are much, much better than they were before. And, though I do not know Ed or the other designers, I happen to think (having read Ed’s writings) that Ed is among the very very best of game designers when it comes to issues of gender and sex and sexual orientation. His recent writings about Eilistraee and the “change dance” are fantastic. Ed is exceptionally good in this regard. But on the other hand, in order to portray a realistic setting, a certain amount of sexism (and other forms of bias, be it racial or cultural or religious) needs to be present. If there was no strife, no conflict (one could consider Good and Evil mutually biased against each other), then the setting would be be incredibly stagnant and cultures would wither away and die altogether. Even if it doesn't appeal to our modern sensibilities, having a variety of realistically portrayed biases makes Faerun a more dynamic, complex place. (Even if they are, for the most part, much less prevalent than those our modern world experienced.) But ... there is still sexism inherent in the game, as noted by Zanan (and I) previously. When I, as a girl, open up a book like Faiths & Pantheons what I see is a bunch of men in power – put there by a bunch of male game designers. Do I think they had sexism on the mind when they made up these gods? No, of course not – I don’t think they thought about it at all – and that is the very problem. We come from a culture that has a thousands of years of history of female subjugation by males – and so overcoming the tendency to put an overwhelming number of males (or male aspects, if they are all gender-less) in positions of power rather than an equal mix takes conscious thought – as I said, diversity takes work. Defeating sexism, even ourselves, takes conscious thought. Here, I think, I disagree in large part. Sure, I think it takes conscious thought at first, but more importantly, you have to learn how to sociologically reprogram people (sneaky?) so that they start to subconsciously take such things into account. In general, real social change requires a long time, a lot of almost Machiavellian manipulations; it has to slowly mold society rather than shatter it and then try to put together the pieces again. Ed said once that he doesn't see color, or sex, or the like, in regards to social institutions. That's what I think true equality is. People need to learn to stop seeing all of our differences (while still allowing diversity - just not capitalizing on it so much) and see more of our common fears, desires, and hopes as a human race. Then again, I'm almost vehemently opposed to religious and cultural institutions, thinking that both only serve to divide us and cause strife. So, Red Wizard, I’ve responded to your posts in an intellectual fashion using reason to make my points – you, on the other hand, have referred to me and my position as “shallow” “unjustifiable” “ridiculous” “flawed” “vain” etc. Those are not arguments, they are just insults. If you wish to continue this debate, by all means, I encourage you to do so – but lets do it through PMs and I would ask you to leave the hyperbole behind and make your points with reason, not insult. Ahem. I still <3 you, at least! And you can also PM me if you want to talk more about this in private, Mikayla, though I tend to respond much more reliably and quickly via AIM.
GothicDan 05-02-07, 04:18 PM	And the most powerful god in the Faerunian cosmos is not Mystra, its Ao, who appears to be male. There is some evidence he may have a superior, and from what I've read, that superior probably has a male appearance also. Oh. You take into account all of the sillyness of AO and the like? You poor girl. I personally hate AO and much of the ToT, and ignore them entirely. He just doesn't do much to add to the theme of a diverse, polytheistic world with multiple pantheons. That being said, AO's superior was a glowing ball of light. If that's male, I think I may have to reevaluate my homosexuality.
Red_Wizard 05-02-07, 04:20 PM	Thanks GD for filling in the Realmsian aspect I could not tackle sitting here at work.
Mikayla 05-02-07, 04:58 PM	GD: That's not sexism, because sexism, though. Dictionary.com gives: Quote: 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women. To define whether or not it's sexism or just chance, we'd have to know the REASONS for why they chose those male deities (if it was based on traditional stereotyping, or as a way of actively discriminating against females). Deciding to have an overwhelming number of men in positions of authority while relegating women to lesser positions IS "behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles" (i.e. the traditional sexual role being men in charge with women subservient). Also, the designers did not "chose" the male deities from a panel of female and male applicants - they created them. Now, its true, to definitively say that the designers were sexist in their creation we would have to be able to read their minds at the moment they created them - but we cannot do that - so I look at the objective end product - and the end product is that a group of largely male game designers decided to make the most powerful beings in Faerun largely male. GD: It seems a little harsh to cry racism or sexism without knowing the myriad reasons that went into the decision-making process. That's reactionary to the point of actively antagonizing people rather than actually making them logically analyze a situation. Again, this is true in real life when you have a variety of candidates to choose from - but here, we are not talking about picking the most qualified from a group of applicants, we are talking about creating "gods" out of whole cloth - the Mulhorandi pantheon excluded of course. Now, the greater gods of the general Faerun pantheon: Bane: Male Chauntea: Female Cyric: Male Kelemvor: Male Kossuth: Male (you may not have included him, I don't know why, but his entry refers to him and pictures him as male). Lathander: Male Mystra: Female Oghma: Male Shar: Female Silvanus: Male Sune: Female Talos: Male Tempus: Male Tyr: Male So, this is from the first section of Faiths and Pantheons: 10 Greater Gods with male presentations, and 4 with female. Thats more than a 2:1 advantage for the male. Now, I realize Mr. Krashos has said that all deities are genderless, and thats fine, but then why such a heavy representation of maleness? Why not make it, say, I dunno, equal. GD: Ed is exceptionally good in this regard. But on the other hand, in order to portray a realistic setting, a certain amount of sexism (and other forms of bias, be it racial or cultural or religious) needs to be present. If there was no strife, no conflict (one could consider Good and Evil mutually biased against each other), then the setting would be be incredibly stagnant and cultures would wither away and die altogether. Even if it doesn't appeal to our modern sensibilities, having a variety of realistically portrayed biases makes Faerun a more dynamic, complex place. (Even if they are, for the most part, much less prevalent than those our modern world experienced.) I agree, Ed IS exceptionally good, as I mentioned previously - but this proves my point - but here you admit there is sexism in the realms - and that was my point in the beginning. The fact that the sexism is included to make it a more realistic place rather than out of spite by the authors does not mean there is no sexism. The contention that sparked this debate was that sexism was present - your paragraph above confirms my contention. GD: I still <3 you, at least! And you can also PM me if you want to talk more about this in private, Mikayla, though I tend to respond much more reliably and quickly via AIM. I love you to, and I would be happy to take this to PMs - but as I am responding to criticism of my contention, if I am critiqued in public, I will respond in public. If you want this to go private, then critique in private and I will respond there - truth be told, I am not writing for your benefit.
Mikayla 05-02-07, 04:59 PM	GD: Oh. You take into account all of the sillyness of AO and the like? You poor girl. I personally hate AO and much of the ToT, and ignore them entirely. He just doesn't do much to add to the theme of a diverse, polytheistic world with multiple pantheons. That you dismiss Ao as silly does not change the fact that designers made the over-deity for the realms male, or at least, male appearing. Love ya.
GothicDan 05-02-07, 05:03 PM	Mikayla, I'll respond to you via PM. :)
Zanan 05-02-07, 06:32 PM	The one instant where I read about Ao and his superior really took me aback, as the latter came over as the one and only Christian God. Very disturbing a read. Anyway, I would like to remind those responding above to keep closer to the topic, or one of the WizO's might wield his or her scythe of threadclosing. With regard to the drow, as I have said above, their main faith is centered around/on an amazonian matriarchic militaristic society and this makes a distinct change to what we have elsewhere (bar enclaves like Dambrath). The rest shares a conformist state of affairs with little in-build difference. That Kiaransalee's and Eilistraee's faiths (the latter probably modelled after Diana's cult) follow suit is no wonder either. It would be, IMHO a travesty if this was to change. In that respect, I have no problem with a male only cult either. Unless its sole existence is based upon eradicating a female opposite.
ericlboyd 05-02-07, 06:50 PM	GD: Also, the designers did not "chose" the male deities from a panel of female and male applicants - they created them. The thought process behind creating the Realms pantheon is detailed in an article in Dragon #54. Keep in mind as you read the article that Ed Greenwood had "Deities & Demigods [1e]" as his only "official source for gods" at the time. --Eric
Mikayla 05-02-07, 07:09 PM	Eric: The thought process behind creating the Realms pantheon is detailed in an article in Dragon #54. Keep in mind as you read the article that Ed Greenwood had "Deities & Demigods [1e]" as his only "official source for gods" at the time. Do you know how far back into my storage unit I am going to have to dig to find Dragon #54?!? ;) Fortunately, I have my old 1st ed Deities & Demigods right here. :)
sillaric_culdanin 05-02-07, 08:41 PM	Of the Greater Powers in the human Faerunian Pantheon the three that have been attributed the most power, both statistically in F&P and in established lore all have a primary *female* aspect (I am referring of course to Mystra, Shar and Chauntea). To further support the fact that just because there happens to be numerically more *male* aspected gods than *female* doesn't mean that the pantheon is in any way *sexist* it is important to remember the creation myth for the FR. It was the eternal battle between the "sisters" Shar and Selune that spawned Chauntea (Toril) and Mystra and fleshed out the entire sphere of Realmspace.
GothicDan 05-02-07, 08:46 PM	Exactly. ;) In the end, sure there's a bit of sexism in the Realms (as well as racism, species-ism, religious zealotry, etc.), but no more than enough to be completely logical. You have more male deities, but more powerful and Realms-essential female ones; you have Elminster, but also the Seven Sisters... And you know what? I can't even think of a single culture that is explicitely dominated by males, but both the Drow and the Wychlaran females pretty much exclusively hold the reigns to their respective regions. Other than that, it seems that anyone can hold whatever role they can prove themselves worthy of. So, overall I'd consider Faerun (in very general terms) a meritocracy of sorts.
MarkusTay63 05-02-07, 10:27 PM	Great Web enhancement, thanks WotC. :D And if I ever finish my write-up of the Temple City of the Revenancer, you'll see what "powerful drow" actually means :DIf you can, please tell me the name and location of this city. You can PM it to me if you wish, but I would love to have it on the map I'm doing of the 'Dark Elven Realms' for the Elven Netbook. Perhaps if it's placed, it will give you incentive to write it up. On a different note, I would have to agree that the current Faerûnian Pantheon is VERY sexist. The most powerful god is Mystra, because she can 'shut-down' all the other gods magic (at least to their worshippers. It has been argued in other threads that Shar is actually more powerful then Mystra. I don't care one way or the other, either way a chick winds up 'most powerful'. Whats with that? Isn't there like a 'Cosmic Kitchen' they should be cooking in somewhere? :hides: The "use ex priestesses and other females as harem and breeding puppets" - attitude just confirms to me that the dogma preached by the Vhaeraunians / the god himself is as hollow as it can get.Hmmmm... nothing wrong there either. ;) I personally like Vhaeruan, and would love to see him take over Mask's portfolio. Screw the cheesy Seldarine/anti-Seldarine - make him a full-fledged Faerûnian god! Then he and Lolth won't even have to deal with each other. Oh, and BTW... thanks for the 'spoilers' peeps... :rolleye2:
Zanan 05-03-07, 04:27 AM	BTW, favourite classes aside (they don't really matter here anyway), just have a look at theruling chaps of Sshamath. By default (abilities), no male drow stands a better chance to become a decent wizard than a female. Yet ... MarkusTay63 ... cometh the time, cometh the name.
Lord Dracul 05-03-07, 07:14 AM	BTW, favourite classes aside (they don't really matter here anyway), just have a look at theruling chaps of Sshamath. By default (abilities), no male drow stands a better chance to become a decent wizard than a female. Yet ... MarkusTay63 ... cometh the time, cometh the name. Heh, tell that to Gromph, The Spider mage and the late Lich Dyrr. No female drow wizard could ever match them in power, as they mainly become clerics.
AbyssKnight 05-03-07, 08:36 AM	GD: Kossuth: Male (you may not have included him, I don't know why, but his entry refers to him and pictures him as male). While I cannot read GD's mind, he probably didn't include him because the elemental gods are explicitly described as alien beings to human understanding. The picture and pronoun used were male, but Kossuth himself is just a giant pillar of fire and last I checked, fire isn't gendered. Also, if you are going to include Kossuth, you should really include the other elemental lords since they are all Greater Gods. Grumbar and Ishtishia both use male pronouns, while Akadi uses female. But again, you can't really attribute gender to purely elemental beings.
Zanan 05-03-07, 12:12 PM	Heh, tell that to Gromph, The Spider mage and the late Lich Dyrr. No female drow wizard could ever match them in power, as they mainly become clerics. Why would I tell anyone of those that when I am telling you that ability-wise - as it is with humans or elves or what have you - males and females are all in the same boat. There's - rulewise - nothing to bar the females becoming the greatest wizards walking on Toril, whether the males have a liking to that class or not. But you are actually proving my point, as I said that even in a place where there is no clergy on top, but power reigns, the majority (i.e. all but 1) of the ruling wizards of Sshamath are males. And that despite them not having any better genes than the females. Remember that "favourite class" is something 3Eish and does not tell you who's the better mage, but who is more likely to take up this class. And as drow strife for power, the only hope males have to gain somesuch in the average drow city (i.e. Lolthites) is to become wizards. Genetically they are no better or worse than the females though.
sillaric_culdanin 05-04-07, 12:11 AM	Zanan, With regard to genetics... I agree with you completely. Liriel is an incredibly talented wizard and seems to have been so almost since she could cast her first spells (a bit of a savant). You'd know this better than I would, but wasn't Ssamath founded by wizards seeking to escape the control of Lloth's females? You hit it right on the head with why the male drow seem so taken with wizardry as its the only thing they're allowed to do to gain any noticable personal power in a traditional drow city... and even so, powerful arcanists like Gromph and the Lichdrow quail before Lolth's power... and for good reason, look what Triel did to Dyrr as soon as she recovered her powers after the Silence :]
Zanan 05-04-07, 04:11 AM	That's why I would rather like to see a drow deity promoting the use of power, whatever the means - to get the drow "forward". No problem with Lolth being in charge, keeping her kin on its toes and making sure they rule supreme within Har'oloth. But to have an option for DMs to use - i.e. one that goes beyond the usual surface raids - a deity might be needed who promotes power of all kinds for selecting leadership. Whether that deity has a tendency to only accept female or male clerics (not all divine casters) does not matter. But just imagine what a useful tool a band of drow could be, who are focussed on the same goal, don't get caught in internal (whether social or sexist) strife and where hierarchical power is largely based on personal power, experience and ability. A group that does not check on other drow first and foremost. Hence, Kiaransalee does offer a better option than Vhaeraun. Having said that, drow pledging faith to an arch devil* (e.g., Dispater, Glasya, Fierna) would be a nice change from the format too. *Lawful Evil patrons offer LN, LE and NE divine caster alignments and thus offer more stability (if needed) to the gang.
Mikayla 05-04-07, 02:53 PM	On the relative power of Mystra, Shar, Chauntea etc. Several people have argued that Mystra is the most powerful god and thus, the pantheon is not sexist. Ao, however, is above Mystra and is depicted as male (whether he is or is not, he is depicted in game materials that way). Also, how many times has Mystra or her predecessor died? Two? Three? She has great responsibility but does not seem to have the greatest power. So, again, if we are comparing raw power - Ao is at the top. As for Kossuth and the elemental gods - I am going straight from Faiths & Pantheons. That is as close to a "definitive" work as we have and rather than allow subjective manipulation of the lists based on what people feel should be in or out, I am simply taking the gods as presented in that book. Kossuth may be sexless and beyond human comprehension, but he is still depicted as male. Finally, as to the Drow gods - my preference, believe it or not, would be for Lolth to NOT kill the other drow deities, but to simply head up a unified drow pantheon in which Lolth was the supreme deity in much the same way that Moradin is the supreme deity for the dwarven pantheon, or that Corellon is for the elves, or whatever. And in that unified drow pantheon there would be Vhaerun, and Kiaransalee, and Ghaunadaur, and even Eilistraee - the Norse gods had Loki in their pantheon, right? So why wouldn't the drow gods have Eilistraee in theirs? Sure, they might not get along, but thats fine. So, that would be my personal preference.
sillaric_culdanin 05-05-07, 01:41 AM	Mikayla, Just in the sense of your opinion, doesn't that sort of defy what it means to be Chaotic Evil? What I'm getting at is that Lolth is every bit as much the Supreme Ruler of her pantheon that Corellan is of his... based on their alignments. The Seldarine as a predominantly CG pantheon value freedom of thought and action in all things... which is what led to Lolth believing she could usurp Corellan's power in the first place IMO. The dwarves are a LG pantheon (as are the halflings) so it makes sense that a real hierarchy would exist for those pantheons. The only other major pantheon with a real ruler is the Orcs (with Gruumsh as the undisputed master) and although they are CE now IIRC the Orcs were LE in previous editions (and even made their home on Acheron which neighbors Mechanus) so it made sense. I guess what I'm saying is that Lolth has power equal to Corellan or Moradin or Gruumsh in her own pantheon but its wielded along the lines of her alignment. She's a former Demon Lord and rules through cunning, fear, strength... and perhaps her most deadly trait... chaos itself. I love Lolth the way she is, but completely understand why the drow in service to Vhaerun bear the grudge they do. They have existed under a sexist yoke beyond that of any other religious group in Faerun, the lack of female Pontiffs among the other clergy of the Realms not withstanding. Zanan, I agree with the sentiment (I'm an oldschool fan of the drow as well) completely. We saw the beginnings of that in WotSQ, especially amongst Pharaun-Ryld-Halisstra-Valas... but they eventually fell victim to the inherent flaw in a CE group... they each turned on each other. This is why in fantasy literature that the "villains" tend to lose to the "heroes", the nature of evil seems to preclude anything but cooperation enforced by one party wielding absolute power (see Emperor Palpatine/Darth Vader, the Matron Mothers in traditional drow cities or even Fzoul Chembryl/Manshoon in Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim) having any lengthy success. Just my thoughts.
Krash 05-05-07, 09:44 PM	Now, I realize Mr. Krashos has said that all deities are genderless, and thats fine, but then why such a heavy representation of maleness? Why not make it, say, I dunno, equal. Because humans (and conveniently, FR designers and authors) use the oily lens of their own gender sometimes when they write or think creatively. If I had to give you an "in the Realms" answer (and in doing so desperately attempt to sound non-sexist), I'd say look at the portfolios of most of the 'male' greater gods. The correlation is that they are related to war, strife, destruction - something in our society at least in which males have excelled. I'm sure that females can excel in those pursuits also (and likely have), but maybe in the Realms - as in our world - males have cornered the market in these areas. Accordingly, their perception (because, as with all matters godly, it comes down to the perceptions of the worshipper) of godly gender is a reflection on the individuals who partake most of that particular deity's divine bailiwick. Just my 2cp. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 05-05-07, 09:49 PM	I don't think that really matters to Mikayla, Krash. ;) That being said, I remember a certain lesbian feminist around here who once said that, regardless of the other characteristics of a deity, if given two possibilities to fulfill a divine role, she prefers a female above a male... (Still love you, Zandilar!) Ultimately, it's impossible to erase racism - on either side. For me? I like looking at males. I find them more commanding, more charismatic, etc. Why? I have no clue. My genes/neurology tell me so. So I'm more likely going to have more males in my "Daniel Pantheon" than females (just like some others would have more females, it seems). I think we should all try to accept each others' differences as natural, and acceptable as long as they don't actively tread on each others' territory, so to speak. But that would be asking too much, perhaps. After all, America thrives on dramatically juxtaposed mindsets.
QuenthelsChampion 05-06-07, 02:42 PM	Oh. You take into account all of the sillyness of AO and the like? You poor girl. I personally hate AO and much of the ToT, and ignore them entirely. He just doesn't do much to add to the theme of a diverse, polytheistic world with multiple pantheons. That being said, AO's superior was a glowing ball of light. If that's male, I think I may have to reevaluate my homosexuality. lol i too don't like AO but the sexuality joke was why i just had to comment
Dark_beebles 05-08-07, 03:32 AM	This post sure got interesting pretty quick... I do think that it is balanced for the most part as far as the sexism goes in the realms. Ya you can nit-pick about certain areas that its not..like the 7 sisters of mystra...however they are still overshadowed by EL. And ya you have the Goddess's like Lolth, E, Mystra, And shar making the most headway in the books...But Cyric was more powerful then all of them for a while. So its all balanced it ebs and flows..sometimes its one way, sometimes its the other. In the WotSQ it was pretty equal through all of the books til the very end. Pharun and Valas were the only reasons that the expidition didnt just flat out get destroyed in the 1st place, they saved it time and time again trough sheer power, might and knowledge. The battle for the city was turned at the end by Triel's Miracle spell. However the city wouldnt have been there at all if Pharun and Ryld didnt stop the Slave uprising's and the males did the fighting to even keep the females alive in the 1st place. Its all checks and balances, Its why I dont think Vhaerune is dead. He might be destroyed but not dead...its not the same thing when it comes to a deity. If he is indeed dead, then why did they even set up Nimors clan in the books? Or even exspand on what Jezz's house did on the surface? And why did the Vhaerunite clerics cast a High Elven magic spell? It dont seem like it makes much sense that they expand so much on the Vhaerune/Male Side in the last couple of books just to end it in a instant. Wouldnt make much sense to me...but then again not a creator or an author. So :confused: hope to find out when the books come out soon.
Mikayla 05-08-07, 01:39 PM	Dan: I love ya', but I can answer for myself thank you very much. Krash: Thank you for the answer. Despite my long protestations I would like you to know that I find the Forgotten Realms better than virtually any other gameworld in terms of sexuality, diversity, gender, etc. But, as a girl, I still find places in the game which come off as sexist to me because they are so thoroughly male dominated - and the Faerun pantheon is one of those places. Now, as for Faerun itself, I readily acknowledge that the realms in their current incarnation are amazingly non-sexist, indeed, probably far less sexist than our own real world. Despite some sloppy language I posted earlier, the only sexism I see (for the most part) is in the pantheon. Now, there is sexism in the books too (for example, the great male drow hero, Drizzt, is totally independant while Liriel, the female drow hero, is forever tied to her boyfriend and partially defined by her relationship to him - c'est la vie - this is pretty minor but it does exist) but by and large the realms are remarkable in their lack of sexism as portrayed. Indeed, given the issues I've faced in real life, the lack of sexism in the realms (aside from the pantheon) is one of the few things that would make me rather live there, than in our world. Of course, that lack of sexism is somewhat outweighed by the neverending stream of monsters, evil gods and apocolyptic threats to the entire city/state/world. ;)
Faraer 05-08-07, 05:39 PM	Because humans (and conveniently, FR designers and authors) use the oily lens of their own gender sometimes when they write or think creatively.And so the fact that in spite of non-sexist attitudes, two-thirds of named Realms characters are male -- of course a much smaller majority than many other milieux written more by men than women.
Zanan 05-09-07, 03:42 AM	If he is indeed dead, then why did they even set up Nimors clan in the books? Or even exspand on what Jezz's house did on the surface? And why did the Vhaerunite clerics cast a High Elven magic spell? It dont seem like it makes much sense that they expand so much on the Vhaerune/Male Side in the last couple of books just to end it in a instant. Wouldnt make much sense to me...but then again not a creator or an author. So :confused: hope to find out when the books come out soon. First, deities do not die that easily ... though they appear very much as dead to the followers. Just remember Bhaal, Myrkul & Co.. If he'd been killed by someone taking his place in full, he might have a problem though, much like Moander has with Lolth and Finder most likely barring any resurrection plans. The Vhaeraunian cast an old High Dark Elven spell sort of thing with a little twist here and there. Nothing all too controversial (just look at what Dirzzt does). Why setting up House Jaelre and all the others and then kill off the deity? Well, those drow will not fall with their deity and going by the current rate, there will not be that much "foes" / NPCs presented in the FRCS left in the next few years. Just look at Sarya and Co..