Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warning 12-31-07, 03:48 PM	THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS!!! Highlight below to read... Ok, so authors either have different outlooks on what a shade is or I am horribly misinformed. Cale is having a kid (whoopdie doo), does that mean that his child will be a shade? (Varra is a human) Because Rivalen was born a shade as well if I remember correctly? And it never mentioned that his mother was a shade, but his father and his other 12 brothers were. Also, why is it RAS says Artemis has shadowstuff in him yet I have not heard of any advantages/disadvantages in his character. Is there different types of shadowstuff/shades? And I understand he absorbed it into his dagger, but when he does so, whatever the dagger obtains (a soul for instance), it goes to the user if I'm not mistaken. So Artemis would be a shade? Or is it that, before shades were clarified to a detail description before the twilightwar came out, there wasn't a definent outlook on what shades are.
dethmetal 12-31-07, 04:06 PM	I'm not 100% positive, i don't have my books with me at work, but i think shades are covered in the FR campaign setting, or at the very least would have an entry in the Mosterous Manual for FR. The thing with Artemis killing and asorbing the shade is mostly novel flare. Jarlaxel theorizes that the act of absorbing the soul of an outsider creature (which i think shades are clasified as) may increase artemis's life beyond the normal human means. If you want game terms, artemis now has a bit of a paler complexion then he had in his younger days and no longer suffers the effects of aging.
Warning 12-31-07, 04:15 PM	If you want game terms, artemis now has a bit of a paler complexion then he had in his younger days and no longer suffers the effects of aging. Um, I don't remember that, he was always whining about he wasn't as fast as he used to be, and noted when he streched he felt his age creeping up on him. And this was after the shade absorbtion.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-31-07, 04:23 PM	In the end Artemis has become less aged. Reread road of the patriach, it's touched apon a couple of times there. Mostly near the end when Jarlaxe talks to Obolarda about the leadership of the mercanary group and when Jarlaxe was likely to return. (pg 300, though earlier in the book it's actually stated that Artemis himself feels that he has stopped aging). Rivalen wasn't born a shade, but when his city was forced into the shadow realm by shar, some of it's inhabatents were given the gift of shadow stuff intwined with their blood. Cales kid (which I didn't remember reading) is likly to be shade if you ask me, but that's just my oppinion.
Warning 12-31-07, 04:27 PM	Cales kid (which I didn't remember reading) is likly to be shade if you ask me, but that's just my oppinion. Sorry for spoiler :doh: War of the Realms And also, wouldn't that still make Artemis a shade like the Twlight War? Did he only gain a limited amount or something?
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-31-07, 04:31 PM	Well, he hasn't shown any other shade like abilities, no regeneration, no skill boast, no telepotation, and no clingy shadows. Which I'm part glad about because I think we don't have enough human NPC's and now it just seems he's gona be around a little longer than most humans would be, nothing else. EDIT: like Dethmetal said, I was alot more like a Writers Flare than any real gaming mechanices.
Warning 12-31-07, 04:35 PM	Well, he hasn't shown any other shade like abilities, no regeneration, no skill boast, no telepotation, and no clingy shadows. Which I'm part glad about because I think we don't have enough human NPC's and now it just seems he's gona be around a little longer than most humans would be, nothing else. They are still humans, just with shadowstuff. Think of it like an enchantment. Plus, why would you not want him to be? He could finally hand Drizzt's ass to him. But then again, RAS would just make it a even battle as he always does. It's fun to read but unrealistic. If Artemis doesn't age, Drizzt looses. Humans learn faster than any other race. A 40 year old human rivaling a Drow over hundreads of years old, nuff said. A human that lives a 1,000 years? Elminster.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-31-07, 04:39 PM	I would just like a regular old human out there making it a legend. And I like that neither wins, it leaves people out there (like yourself) wanting a deffient anwser, and sometimes, I think, there never reallly should be. Don't get me wrong, Drizzt gets old but I don't want him dead, He is still an Iconic realms charactor.
Warning 12-31-07, 04:43 PM	I would just like a regular old human out there making it a legend. And I like that neither wins, it leaves people out there (like yourself) wanting a deffient anwser, and sometimes, I think, there never reallly should be. Don't get me wrong, Drizzt gets old but I don't want him dead, He is still an Iconic realms charactor. I would rather Artemis win but, if Drizzt killed Artemis, I would happier than them both living on and on doing the same thing. I love realistic fantasy novels. Check out Raymond E. Feist.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-31-07, 04:55 PM	I shall, and I'll through out the suggestion of Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn. Great Ideas, I've even tried to make a gaming media out of it, but it's putting up a fight.
Alkasyn 12-31-07, 06:01 PM	I would rather Artemis win but, if Drizzt killed Artemis, I would happier than them both living on and on doing the same thing. I love realistic fantasy novels. Check out Raymond E. Feist. If you like old games, check out Betrayal at Krondor, game of the year 1993, a very good old school rpg, plot of which was also written by Feist, if I'm not mistaken.
Rauric 01-01-08, 09:38 AM	This is a good question. I would treat Cale as having the full Shade template and Artemis as having some of the shades abilites. The main benefit is longer life so RAS can write him and keep him in FR continuity. ;) Other than that Iwould give him a +4 def bonus to ac, +4 to stealth skills and things like that. Not the invisibility properties though. I do not think he had them in the novels.
Philalexandros 01-01-08, 10:46 AM	They are still humans, just with shadowstuff. Think of it like an enchantment. Plus, why would you not want him to be? He could finally hand Drizzt's ass to him. But then again, RAS would just make it a even battle as he always does. It's fun to read but unrealistic. If Artemis doesn't age, Drizzt looses. Humans learn faster than any other race. A 40 year old human rivaling a Drow over hundreads of years old, nuff said. A human that lives a 1,000 years? Elminster. Hmmm.... I'm going to have to disagree. It varies, race by race. I'm not exactly sure how closely Salvatore's Drow correspond to the FR canon, but Drizzt mirrored pretty closely human child development in his first 7-8 years--in terms of physical growth, mental aptitude, learning curve, etc. Where races that share identical or closely similar physical growth are concerned, I've always maintained that it's useless to try to use different mindsets for races (where learning, daily ambition, etc. are concerned) that all share a 24-hour existence. Those should be societal characteristics--not racial ones. Where different levels of physical development are concerned... I just throw those out the window. The stretching of developmental periods is, IMHO, nothing more than one of many flawed attempts to artificially induce gaming balance. In fact, I tend to go the opposite route. In my campaigns, long-lived demi-humans like elves and dwarves are few in number but, typically, possessed of several levels in one or more "heroic" classes. Similarly, they waste not their time on the DMG's "NPC" classes. Let's just say that, when my PCs run into a creature that may have been alive for 2-3 centuries and is girded for battle... They think twice about what they will do.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 11:54 AM	The Human ability to adapt and learn better than most races has been shown in D&D for a long time, in the fact that they get an extra feat and extra skill points at first level. It is also known that Drow hit Adulthood later in life than most. The requirments to get into the drow acadamey was for the soon to be priestess had to be thirty or have hit puperty, implying that it sometimes happpens a while after the age thirty.
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 05:43 PM	Confused about Shades... Aren't we all? ;)
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 06:45 PM	nice.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-01-08, 07:59 PM	Ok, so authors either have different outlooks on what a shade is or I am horribly misinformed. Cale is having a kid (whoopdie doo), does that mean that his child will be a shade? (Varra is a human) Because Rivalen was born a shade as well if I remember correctly? And it never mentioned that his mother was a shade, but his father and his other 12 brothers were. Also, why is it RAS says Artemis has shadowstuff in him yet I have not heard of any advantages/disadvantages in his character. Is there different types of shadowstuff/shades? And I understand he absorbed it into his dagger, but when he does so, whatever the dagger obtains (a soul for instance), it goes to the user if I'm not mistaken. So Artemis would be a shade? Or is it that, before shades were clarified to a detail description before the twilightwar came out, there wasn't a definent outlook on what shades are. The certainly of whether or not Cale's child becomes a shade or is born with shade qualities depends on circumstances. Is his deity willing to gift his child with the boon, who does Cale procreate with, etc. Ultimately, it's up to the author. Rivalen was born a shade because his father and mother were both shades. Their family is also the favored of Shar. Furthermore, they are the royalty of the city of Shadow. Makes sense for the ruling class to be shades :P. Artemis is not a shade per se, rather he has shade qualities, namely the extended lifespan. Entreri never fully absorbed the lifeforce of the shade he battled, rather only a proportion. He doesn't gain any "upgrades" to stats or benefits in darkness. As to your pertinent question. A shade is a mortal human suffused with the shadowstuff of the Plane of Shadow. A shade favors shadow and is empowered by darkness. If you want game terms, artemis now has a bit of a paler complexion then he had in his younger days and no longer suffers the effects of aging. Incorrect. His new appearance was distinctly described as being dusky or swarthy in complexion.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 08:06 PM	In the book he is said to be a bit paler than normal.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-01-08, 08:12 PM	You must be reading a different book to me then. "[...]Looking into it, Entreri could see, even in the dim light, that his normally brown skin had taken on a bit of a gray pallor-nothing too noticeable." Realms of Shadow, pg 174. Nowhere does it mention that he is paler than before.
Rauric 01-01-08, 09:24 PM	I thought you need to undergo a process to become a Shade. So his kid would be human. The people who live on the City Shade are mostly humans I think. Only the most special or useful becomes a Shade.
18DELTA 01-01-08, 09:40 PM	Doesn't it say in "Lord's of Darkness" that all Shades are created after they reach 5th level? Sure the High Princes of Shade automatically Become shades, the rest of the population probably have to earn it. Every Shade that I have read about went through a ritual or accident to become a Shade. :) :twocents:
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 09:53 PM	Ok, so authors either have different outlooks on what a shade is or I am horribly misinformed. Cale is having a kid (whoopdie doo), does that mean that his child will be a shade? (Varra is a human) Because Rivalen was born a shade as well if I remember correctly? And it never mentioned that his mother was a shade, but his father and his other 12 brothers were. -I don't remember anyone mentioning that Cale was having a child. You sure you read the lines correctly? Nothing in The Erevis Cale trilogy, or the Twilight War trilogy mention anything of that sort. -Anyway, the child would not be born a Shade. Shades are not born, but are created. Prince Rivalen was not born a Shade, he was created. As per the rituals of the city of Shade, when he reached a certain age, he underwent a ritual that turned him into a Shade. Thus, this proves that Shades are not born. EDIT: Nevermind with that first part, you referenced a book that I didn't even know was out. On a side note, is it any good? What stories are in it? Also, why is it RAS says Artemis has shadowstuff in him yet I have not heard of any advantages/disadvantages in his character. Is there different types of shadowstuff/shades? And I understand he absorbed it into his dagger, but when he does so, whatever the dagger obtains (a soul for instance), it goes to the user if I'm not mistaken. So Artemis would be a shade? Or is it that, before shades were clarified to a detail description before the twilightwar came out, there wasn't a definent outlook on what shades are. -Entreri isn't a Shade. However, he is more than a Human now. If you are looking for a concrete thing to call him, unfortunatley, there isn't. The most accurate thing I'd say, would be the 'Shadow Creature' template from Manual of the Planes. And, even then, it's not an exact fit. Entreri absorbing the Shade's essence seems to me to be a plot device to allow him to ignore age.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 10:04 PM	You must be reading a different book to me then. "[...]Looking into it, Entreri could see, even in the dim light, that his normally brown skin had taken on a bit of a gray pallor-nothing too noticeable." Realms of Shadow, pg 174. Nowhere does it mention that he is paler than before. After that short story RotP came out. Jarlaxe notes him to be a bit paler and less aged but other than that nothing much had changed.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 10:06 PM	Delete
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 03:05 AM	-Anyway, the child would not be born a Shade. Shades are not born, but are created. Prince Rivalen was not born a Shade, he was created. As per the rituals of the city of Shade, when he reached a certain age, he underwent a ritual that turned him into a Shade. Thus, this proves that Shades are not born. It's a little more complicated than that. You also have to factor in the dynamic of the relationship between entity and deity or other variables. While there is no question that Telamont, Hadrhune and the other Tanthuls underwent transformation to become a shade at a later date - having been born before the fall of Netheril - other citizens, perhaps, may very well have been born as shades. Having spent several centuries within the Plane of Shadow, this seems likely; the template does not stipulate a HD or class level requirement. Being born as a shade would be extremely rare, the vast majority would be gifted with transformation. Those who please Shar or Mask greatly may be granted the opportunity to usher in a child with inherent shade qualities and abilities. Likewise with Cale's hypothetical child. Depending on the whim of Mask, Cale's patron deity, the child could very well be born with the shade template. Not everyone has to undergo ritual to transform, there are no absolutes or certainties, to claim otherwise is to invoke conjecture and assumptions. I'd actually break the shade template down, into lesser shades and greater shades. Lesser shades for normal citizens while reserving greater shades for the royalty of the City of Shade or special cases. -Entreri isn't a Shade. However, he is more than a Human now. If you are looking for a concrete thing to call him, unfortunatley, there isn't. The most accurate thing I'd say, would be the 'Shadow Creature' template from Manual of the Planes. And, even then, it's not an exact fit. Entreri absorbing the Shade's essence seems to me to be a plot device to allow him to ignore age. He wouldn't have the shadow creature template. It'd be something unique to Entreri. And it is a metaplot device to prolong his lifespan, perhaps indefinitely, since shades are longer lived than even elves. After that short story RotP came out. Jarlaxe notes him to be a bit paler and less aged but other than that nothing much had changed. Could you draw up a page reference?
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:02 AM	It's a little more complicated than that. You also have to factor in the dynamic of the relationship between entity and deity or other variables. While there is no question that Telamont, Hadrhune and the other Tanthuls underwent transformation to become a shade at a later date - having been born before the fall of Netheril - other citizens, perhaps, may very well have been born as shades. Having spent several centuries within the Plane of Shadow, this seems likely; the template does not stipulate a HD or class level requirement. Being born as a shade would be extremely rare, the vast majority would be gifted with transformation. Those who please Shar or Mask greatly may be granted the opportunity to usher in a child with inherent shade qualities and abilities. Not everyone has to undergo ritual to transform, there are no absolutes or certainties, to claim otherwise is to invoke conjecture and assumptions. -Races of Faerūn makes no mention of "natural" Shades being birthed. Nor do any other sources. All Shades undergo some sort of ritual to transform them. With the Shadovar, it's the ritual that Lord Shadow (presumably) presides over. With Erevis Cale, it was the incident at the Fane of Shadows. "Natural" Shades, while a plausible idea, are all heresay. I'd actually break the shade template down, into lesser shades and greater shades. Lesser shades for normal citizens while reserving greater shades for the royalty of the City of Shade or special cases. -Why? There's no precident anywhere saying that, in the City of Shade anyway, certain Shades are more "shadowy" than others. As far as we know, it's one ritual for all residents who meet the criteria. I could see there being different kinds of Shades, via different rituals (ie, rituals in the City of Shade, rituals in Calimshan, rituals in Menzoberranzan, etc.) He wouldn't have the shadow creature template. It'd be something unique to Entreri. And it is a metaplot device to prolong his lifespan, perhaps indefinitely, since shades are longer lived than even elves. -Hence the part where I said, "it's not an exact fit...it's a plot device".
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:33 AM	-Races of Faerūn makes no mention of "natural" Shades being birthed. Nor do any other sources. All Shades undergo some sort of ritual to transform them. With the Shadovar, it's the ritual that Lord Shadow (presumably) presides over. With Erevis Cale, it was the incident at the Fane of Shadows. "Natural" Shades, while a plausible idea, are all heresay. You're viewing it too simply. Note, never have I denied that is one source of transformation but neither can you deny that being born as a shade is not impossible. Again, like I said, it depends on the author and designer. Just because we haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't happen. -Why? There's no precident anywhere saying that, in the City of Shade anyway, certain Shades are more "shadowy" than others. As far as we know, it's one ritual for all residents who meet the criteria. I could see there being different kinds of Shades, via different rituals (ie, rituals in the City of Shade, rituals in Calimshan, rituals in Menzoberranzan, etc.) The descriptors stating how shadows churn and boil around the Tanthul brothers and Cale and so on. Their command over the essence of shadow could potentially be greater than a "normal peasant." -Hence the part where I said, "it's not an exact fit...it's a plot device". Hence why, for the most part, I agreed with you.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:37 AM	You're viewing it too simply. Note, never have I denied that is one source of transformation but neither can you deny that being born as a shade is not impossible. Again, like I said, it depends on the author and designer. Just because we haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't happen. -So, since nothing has ever said implicitly that Elves don't lay eggs, I should believe that Elves lay eggs? The descriptors stating how shadows churn and boil around the Tanthul brothers and Cale and so on. Their command over the essence of shadow could potentially be greater than a "normal peasant." -What's to say that the shadows don't churn around the normal "Shade peasants" (that's a misnomer really, but whatever)?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:45 AM	-So, since nothing has ever said implicitly that Elves don't lay eggs, I should believe that Elves lay eggs? Hey, whatever rocks your boat I guess. You're arguing a logical fallacy here, you're derived an erroneous conclusion from a portion of my statement. It's different to transformation to shade, because there's deities closely involved. Given the mammalian bodies of the elves and similarity to the human body, laying eggs is going to be quite impossible. Besides which Corellon isn't going to be too happy. -What's to say that the shadows don't churn around the normal "Shade peasants" (that's a misnomer really, but whatever)? They are peasants, everyone who is not royalty is a peasant, especially in the eyes of a group of NE royalty. Because the shade princes have a monopoly on shadovar washing machines. Seriously though, they have detailed other shades, namely Hadrhune and Leevoth, but the shadows didn't churn around their forms.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:51 AM	Hey, whatever rocks your boat I guess. You're arguing a logical fallacy here, you're derived an erroneous conclusion from a portion of my statement. -The premise remains. They are peasants, everyone who is not royalty is a peasant, especially in the eyes of a group of NE royalty. -Races of Faerūn, page 148: "Only a small percentage of Shadovar are transformed, and commoners and low-ranking military officers are never chosen for transformation". Seriously though, they have detailed other shades, namely Hadrhune and Leevoth, but the shadows didn't churn around their forms. -A byproduct of relative power (as in Character Level)? Poetic license, perhaps?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:18 AM	-The premise remains. But becomes irrelevant due to the logical fallacy. -Races of Faerūn, page 148: "Only a small percentage of Shadovar are transformed, and commoners and low-ranking military officers are never chosen for transformation". -A byproduct of relative power (as in Character Level)? Poetic license, perhaps? Which doesn't separate from the fact that they're still peasants ;). In the eyes of the Tanthuls, everyone else is a peasant.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 10:27 AM	But becomes irrelevant due to the logical fallacy. -How so? Because something isn't implicitly stated doesn't mean that there is "wiggle room" to manipulate. If there is not anything written on the subject, we shouldn't assume until there is enough evidence to assume. In the case of Elves laying eggs, there is no evidence to assume this. Thus, we don't. There is no evidence to support the idea that Shades can be naturally born. We shouldn't assume they can be until we get some sort of evidence to demonstrate it can be so. Which doesn't separate from the fact that they're still peasants ;). In the eyes of the Tanthuls, everyone else is a peasant. -Perhaps. The fact that there is a caste system of sorts in the city suggests that, while they might look down on everybody, there is a differeing degree of distaste. Thus, say, a mid-level captain of the watch may be of a lower class, but might not exactly be a peasant.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:35 AM	-How so? Because something isn't implicitly stated doesn't mean that there is "wiggle room" to manipulate. If there is not anything written on the subject, we shouldn't assume until there is enough evidence to assume. In the case of Elves laying eggs, there is no evidence to assume this. Thus, we don't. There is no evidence to support the idea that Shades can be naturally born. We shouldn't assume they can be until we get some sort of evidence to demonstrate it can be so. You seem to be confusing yourself a bit. It's a bit different where shades are concerned. We already have detailed specifics of elves and into the elven way of life/outlook, not so much with the shades, we only have the information that shades are transformed, but not the whys or the hows, involvement of deity intercession, or any other particulars. With this amount of lack of information, yes, there is going to be wiggle room. We can't assume elves can lay eggs because it has already "been proven that they can't." This is reason why we can't assume otherwise, it's because there is much detail involving the elves. With the shades and shadovar, this is not the case, we have room to speculate and assume, precisely because of the lack of information. -Perhaps. The fact that there is a caste system of sorts in the city suggests that, while they might look down on everybody, there is a differeing degree of distaste. Thus, say, a mid-level captain of the watch may be of a lower class, but might not exactly be a peasant. Yes, but the caste system and advancement in it was specifically stated to be carefully regimented while being simultaneously fierce. It was also said they made a point of being ritual in most things, including everyday life and that what the Princes and their father said was law. Indeed, according to Lords of Darkness, "all shadovars live and die by his command." (referring to Telamont).
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-02-08, 10:50 AM	:clap: :teach: hm.. this is entertaining :cheer: :duel: ... and, GO. -wait, where's my popcorn. ok... GO.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:56 AM	I'm still waiting on that page reference, Phelf_Der_Zemit ;)
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-02-08, 11:00 AM	don't worry It's on the way, just got to wait until I'm at the right house. (currently I am not *obviously*)
dethmetal 01-02-08, 12:18 PM	You must be reading a different book to me then. "[...]Looking into it, Entreri could see, even in the dim light, that his normally brown skin had taken on a bit of a gray pallor-nothing too noticeable." Realms of Shadow, pg 174. Nowhere does it mention that he is paler than before. nit pick much? let me fix that. "Treat it as if his skin got a little dusty and no longer suffers the effects of aging."
Warning 01-02-08, 02:12 PM	Rivalen was born a shade because his father and mother were both shades. Their family is also the favored of Shar. Furthermore, they are the royalty of the city of Shadow. Makes sense for the ruling class to be shades :P. Rivalen wasn't born a shade, but when his city was forced into the shadow realm by shar, some of it's inhabatents were given the gift of shadow stuff intwined with their blood. - -Anyway, the child would not be born a Shade. Shades are not born, but are created. Prince Rivalen was not born a Shade, he was created. As per the rituals of the city of Shade, when he reached a certain age, he underwent a ritual that turned him into a Shade. Thus, this proves that Shades are not born. Wtf guys, stop killing my mind. Pick one.
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 02:18 PM	If a Sun-elf was born in the Shade, would the whole world get a little brighter? :confused:
Bonzai 01-02-08, 02:39 PM	I don't think acquired templates are inheritable. All offspring would be based off the base races of the parents. In Cale's case, his child would be human. Racial templates are another matter... What the result of a crossing between a Half Dragon Ogre and a Half Ogre Dragon is anyones guess. :P (Actually, I figured it out... Half Ogre Dragons are an illegal combination, as half ogres have to be giant or humaniod as a base class). As for Entreri, I agree with Karsus. That was just a plot device to allow R.A.S. to keep him around after the up coming time jump. After all, even at a 10 year jump, that would put him in his mid to late 60's. While it would have been interesting to see how old age played out with him, this allows him to possibly stay around, even if they do a 100 year jump.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:13 PM	don't worry It's on the way, just got to wait until I'm at the right house. (currently I am not *obviously*) Good to know...but, wait, I'm supposed to know when you are at home?...:/ That's just silly. nit pick much? let me fix that. "Treat it as if his skin got a little dusty and no longer suffers the effects of aging." Not know what you are talking about much? How does got a little dusty equate to paler than before? It does not compute. Acquired templates can be inheritable, hence the "acquired." A procreative act between a mortal and half-fiend would perhaps result in a half-fiend.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 12:42 AM	Acquired templates can be inheritable, hence the "acquired." A procreative act between a mortal and half-fiend would perhaps result in a half-fiend. -Not exactly. That union would result in the birth of a Tiefling. There technically isn't enough Fiendish blood in said being to justify (in my mind) a Half-Fiend status. [Human + Human (Parent I)] + [Human + Fiend (Parent II)]
18DELTA 01-03-08, 01:03 AM	-Not exactly. That union would result in the birth of a Tiefling. There technically isn't enough Fiendish blood in said being to justify (in my mind) a Half-Fiend status. [Human + Human (Parent I)] + [Human + Fiend (Parent II)] -I think that someone just wants to argue to argue. :P -We do a good enough job of that around here allready.;) -But we argue about important topics: The Spellplague=:rant:, Elves Worshipping Gruumsh=WTF:banghead: :nonono: get the point. -Somebody wants to argue about something that is clearly spelled out in the FR lore(Lord's of Darkness, Races of Faerun).;) -So quit Trolling, Please.:) -Not you LK
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 01:12 AM	-I don't think he/she is trolling, per se.
18DELTA 01-03-08, 01:42 AM	-I don't think he/she is trolling, per se. -So you agree with the rest of my post. ;)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 03:56 AM	-Not exactly. That union would result in the birth of a Tiefling. There technically isn't enough Fiendish blood in said being to justify (in my mind) a Half-Fiend status. [Human + Human (Parent I)] + [Human + Fiend (Parent II)] Note where I said 'perhaps.' I never said with certainty. However, you're not correct. A union between a mortal and half-fiend could result in the following: Either 1) a mortal, 2) a tiefling or 3) another half-fiend. It depends on the backstory of the character, the DM and the player. -I think that someone just wants to argue to argue. :P -We do a good enough job of that around here allready.;) -But we argue about important topics: The Spellplague=:rant:, Elves Worshipping Gruumsh=WTF:banghead: :nonono: get the point. -Somebody wants to argue about something that is clearly spelled out in the FR lore(Lord's of Darkness, Races of Faerun).;) -So quit Trolling, Please.:) -Not you LK So, it's a case of "do as I say, but not as I do," yes? Anything that I write has a point and purpose, in the case of the above, as you fail to see it I will spell it out for you. The poster above me argued that hereditary templates are not possible, while I'm arguing that they are. Considering everything that I wrote and your most recent post, who exactly here is trolling? No, really, it's quite obvious.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-03-08, 10:23 AM	Let's keep this G, to PG-13 rated. And lets face is, no one on these boards (even most of the authors) couldn't get in a verbal throw down with LK. They would imploded.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 11:33 AM	Note where I said 'perhaps.' I never said with certainty. However, you're not correct. A union between a mortal and half-fiend could result in the following: Either 1) a mortal, 2) a tiefling or 3) another half-fiend. It depends on the backstory of the character, the DM and the player. -So, [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Demon)] + [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Human)] equals [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Demon)], huh? Interesting. Where did that extra Human blood go? Can't be a Half-Demon when there's more/less Demon blood in your body.
18DELTA 01-03-08, 12:40 PM	Note where I said 'perhaps.' I never said with certainty. However, you're not correct. A union between a mortal and half-fiend could result in the following: Either 1) a mortal, 2) a tiefling or 3) another half-fiend. It depends on the backstory of the character, the DM and the player. So, it's a case of "do as I say, but not as I do," yes? Anything that I write has a point and purpose, in the case of the above, as you fail to see it I will spell it out for you. The poster above me argued that hereditary templates are not possible, while I'm arguing that they are. Considering everything that I wrote and your most recent post, who exactly here is trolling? No, really, it's quite obvious. -Nope just pointing out what I see. -If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, go for it .As for me you are going on the IGNORE LIST.:D -Because all you want to do is argue for the sake of arguing.:( -I will point out one thing. Demon/Devil impregnates a human female.(Or a dwarf, elf, etc.);) -9 months later, out comes a little bundle of Half-Fiend Joy.:D -Said Half-Fiend impregnates a female later in life. ;) -9 months later, out comes a little bundle of Tiefling Joy. :D -So are you tracking yet. Do you understand that the Bloodline is diluting through procreation.:( -Said Tiefling impregnates a human Female of course. Later in life, out come a baby or another Tiefling. On through the Generations. -Now that I have that out of my system(Sorry for the slight Troll on my part, I can be honest with my self), Comence to continue arguing over stuff that doesn't even matter. Compared to what is coming!!!
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-03-08, 12:42 PM	4ED ahaahahahaha, 4zilla, 4zilla!!!
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 12:57 PM	-If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, go for it .As for me you are going on the IGNORE LIST.:D -Don't do that. For as much as I don't like other people, their opinions, etc., no one goes on the Ignore List.
Bonzai 01-03-08, 02:45 PM	-So, [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Demon)] + [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Human)] equals [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Demon)], huh? Interesting. Where did that extra Human blood go? Can't be a Half-Demon when there's more/less Demon blood in your body. I agree with the Tiefling thing. However, I believe that the Fiendish and Tiefling are both RACIAL templates. One does not acquire those templates, you are born with them (Except half fiend, which you can in theory get through a rare spell from ancient Narfel, but it is still a racial template). Acquired templates are things like necropolitan, vampires, or Shades. They are not racial, but acquired. Therefore usually not inheritable (Half Vampire is, but I believe that it is a racial template too).
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 02:58 PM	-For a secon there, I was looking and saying to myself, "I didn't post that..." ;) I agree with the Tiefling thing. However, I believe that the Fiendish and Tiefling are both RACIAL templates. One does not acquire those templates, you are born with them (Except half fiend, which you can in theory get through a rare spell from ancient Narfel, but it is still a racial template). -Well, Tiefling is a race.
Bonzai 01-03-08, 05:48 PM	Heh, I've been mistaken for you a few times. One of the perils of having a snazzy avatar I guess. Yes, Tiefling is a race. Half fiend is an "Inherited" template. Says so on the SDR. So is being a Fiendish Creature. Zombie and vampire are both acquired templates. Point being is that there is a distinction between being an inherited template and an acquired template. Shade is an acquired template, not an inheritable one. Ergo, it is not something that you can be born with. So even if a mommy shade and a daddy shade love each other very much, they are still going to wind up with a child of the base race.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 06:13 PM	-So, [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Demon)] + [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Human)] equals [1/2 (Human) + 1/2 (Demon)], huh? Interesting. Where did that extra Human blood go? Can't be a Half-Demon when there's more/less Demon blood in your body. Extraplanar blood is sufficiently more powerful than human blood. It's like how some DNA is recessive while others are dominant. The demonic blood displaces enough of the mortal human blood to ensure the birth produces a half-fiend. Which is the possibility, again, I never said that it was a certainty. So, you're going to end up with either of the above: tiefling, human or half-fiend. -Nope just pointing out what I see. -If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, go for it .As for me you are going on the IGNORE LIST.:D -Because all you want to do is argue for the sake of arguing.:( If my posting is making you cry or gives you the sniffles because my opinion doesn't agree with yours, then you obviously don't know how an online forum works. If it grieves you so, why are you posting in an online forum? -I will point out one thing. Demon/Devil impregnates a human female.(Or a dwarf, elf, etc.);) -9 months later, out comes a little bundle of Half-Fiend Joy.:D -Said Half-Fiend impregnates a female later in life. ;) -9 months later, out comes a little bundle of Tiefling Joy. :D -So are you tracking yet. Do you understand that the Bloodline is diluting through procreation.:( -Said Tiefling impregnates a human Female of course. Later in life, out come a baby or another Tiefling. On through the Generations. -Now that I have that out of my system(Sorry for the slight Troll on my part, I can be honest with my self), Comence to continue arguing over stuff that doesn't even matter. Compared to what is coming!!! It doesn't exactly work like that, not like real life anyway. As I said, as you still have "retained the services" of a half-fiend, it's not exactly going to result in a tiefling. And you're thinking of the SRD. Bonzai, half-fiend is a racial template but tiefling is not, tiefling is a race. The point I was making is that shade can be acquired, which it usually is or it can also be inherited, there's nothing that says this cannot be true.
Karsus the Mad 01-03-08, 09:56 PM	shade can be acquired, which it usually is or it can also be inherited, there's nothing that says this cannot be true. Is there anything that suggests they can? So far, the only thing I've found is the following from RoF. "There is no such thing as young shades, and shades who marry produce normal offspring."
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 12:21 AM	Is there anything that suggests they can? So far, the only thing I've found is the following from RoF. "There is no such thing as young shades, and shades who marry produce normal offspring." -The more you know. :teach:
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 08:09 AM	Is there anything that suggests they can? So far, the only thing I've found is the following from RoF. "There is no such thing as young shades, and shades who marry produce normal offspring." If you actually read what I wrote, you'd notice that I never argued from the perspective of sourcebooks or supplements. It was always "it's up to the author," etc. I know what it states in the sourcebooks and thanks, but that wasn't my point. My point was that since novels usually don't usually utilise material from supplements or use artistic license to portray stuff then the final call falls to the author. As nothing has been written that a shade can't be born, then I see no reason why this can't be possible.
Karsus the Mad 01-04-08, 10:35 AM	And franky E'tii', your point was to show that shades are natural born. You ARE wrong in regards of ALL published works. <flame snip> Then again I'm a god-damned thrice destroyed spirit........
WizO_Kayn 01-04-08, 10:51 AM	A reminder that you should not need: You can disagree all you want, you just can not be baiting, flaming, and uncivil about it. Dont do it. Yell all you want at the screen, just dont post it. Thanks, WizO Kayn
Karsus the Mad 01-04-08, 11:06 AM	Offerings given to the Wizo. Point given however. Master Kayn prevents woop ass time.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 11:40 AM	As nothing has been written that a shade can't be born, then I see no reason why this can't be possible. There is no such thing as young shades, and shades who marry produce normal offspring. -Authors use sourcebooks as research tools when writing. Perhaps the reason there has yet to be a confirmed 'naturally born Shade' in a novel is because, asides for simply not having had the place or time to divulge said information, the authors are adhering to these rules?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 08:48 PM	And franky E'tii', your point was to show that shades are natural born. You ARE wrong in regards of ALL published works. <flame snip> Then again I'm a god-damned thrice destroyed spirit........ Relax, breathe. Breathe again. Relax. Take a chill pill or go outside. If you find offense at everything others post on forums, then you fail to get the point of forums and should not be posting on them. Now, I did not claim that I stated the content or material in/of sourcebooks to be false or wrong. I did say that novels don't necessarily reflect what is written in said supplements. -Authors use sourcebooks as research tools when writing. Perhaps the reason there has yet to be a confirmed 'naturally born Shade' in a novel is because, asides for simply not having had the place or time to divulge said information, the authors are adhering to these rules? Sometimes, not all the time, and perhaps even rarely. Authors are at liberty to 'disregard' some or all material in favor of telling a fantastic and great story. They have a right to exercise artistic license. This means that not everything in novels will reflect what is written in sourcebooks. Take Artemis. He is said to be extremely disciplined and possessed of an iron focus/determination and iron will. However, what his stats display don't reflect that. He has a Will save of +8 and has no Iron Will feat. Given that stated chars do sometimes roll low or roll high, his statted Will is at odds with that which is written in novels, namely his will is strong at all times, not only some of the time like his stats suggest. If the statted Artemis ever rolled poorly (50-75% chance), Charon's Claw would have had his soul by now, and every time the novel Artemis has shown who is boss and who is servitor/servant. Also, take the drow. Some novels have them cast multiple globes of darkness in any given day. This is not true while looking at the mechanics, the drow can only cast globe of darkness once per day. Authors have also admitted themselves that they favor storytelling over writing hard stats and encounters in novel/literary form. All this means that while sourcebooks can say one thing, novels can say another.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-04-08, 10:15 PM	Artemis's Iron will is easly somthing of a variable, as it is usually made as a roll. The drow using darkness more than one time aday can be replicated with a few flimboant feat chosses. And really the only time I've seen a drow use darkness more than once aday was with the many Drizzt books, and lets face it, R.A. Salvatore is a great author, but one of the prime examples of authors who play to their own tune. Besides this is alittle of topic, in that the difference between an author fibbing on a few saving throws or using minor spell like abilities more than they should have is alot less of a artistic liberty than, say, deveiating from a races ability to reproduce and mature. Like mentioned; elves don't lay egges, let's not make them.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-05-08, 08:24 AM	Even so, the point remains that novels don't exactly follow the guidelines of the material in the sourcebooks. Hence, what can be a novel doesn't necessarily reflect what is in a supplement. Nowadays, most authors seem to give a nod towards following game mechanics and rule design, but not all.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-05-08, 09:11 PM	But these aren't really guidelines as much as a species. Kinda a difference.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 12:49 AM	Uh, what? No, you misunderstand. My point was: what is said in novels does not find an equivalent vis-a-vis in sourcebooks, and vice versa; what is featured in novels does not necessarily reflect what is written in sourcebooks, and vice versa. That is what I meant by guidelines; it needn't be an exact replica, (even) if the authors follow design material at all.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-06-08, 06:33 PM	Let me ask you somthing.. Does you back side hurt from stradling that fence? But I digress, I do see you meaning. So in the final question, What do you believe, That Shades can be born, or are the Made?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 10:26 PM	Let me ask you somthing.. Does you back side hurt from stradling that fence? My virtual head hurts where it's being hitting the wall. Where does it give you the impression that I've been straddling the fence? But I digress, I do see you meaning. So in the final question, What do you believe, That Shades can be born, or are the Made? Either/or, depends. The sourcebooks can say one thing, but the novels can say another. That was the point I've being making.
Stigger 01-07-08, 06:42 AM	Novels are usually unreliable witnesses, sourcebooks generally give us concrete known stuff unless its stated as otherwise, hence, novels aren't as trustworthy a source.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 07:41 AM	However, the displayed content is and can be usually different to that found in sourcebooks. And the content in novels were/are made into canon references and canon material.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-07-08, 10:24 AM	I have to agree that many of the statements made in novels are made my unreliable narrators. The novel being canon just means "so-and-so definitely said that", but it doesn't mean "what so-and-so said is also a fact". Not that I'm taking sides here (honestly, I'm not that interested), but I'm helping to point out a fact that is very easy to forget.
Stigger 01-07-08, 04:31 PM	Novels tell us a story, a series of events that occur, which is great, sure, if you're into them. But beyond history, they're pretty much useless from a rules and fact point of view. I tend to look at them like the stories one would hear from an adventuring band, where the facts get a little exaggerated in the retelling, just to liven things up a bit here and there. On the whole they may be true, but just how much of it is highly debatable.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-07-08, 04:55 PM	:cheer: :clap: Novels tell us a story, a series of events that occur, which is great, sure, if you're into them. But beyond history, they're pretty much useless from a rules and fact point of view. I tend to look at them like the stories one would hear from an adventuring band, where the facts get a little exaggerated in the retelling, just to liven things up a bit here and there. On the whole they may be true, but just how much of it is highly debatable. :cheer: :ayyyy!: :dancin: You put my thoughts into words.
18DELTA 01-07-08, 05:04 PM	:dancin: Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger Stigger:dancin: :w00t: :clap: :cheer: :king: :ayyyy!:
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 10:02 PM	I wasn't arguing that novels weren't different to sourcebooks, which is why I said that novels can say one thing and that sourcebooks can say another. Sourcebooks don't necessarily reflect vis-a-vis what is written in a novel and vice versa. I've already made this quite clear and said it many times arleady, I don't know how I can make this more clear. I also said that what is in novels can, and in fact, do become canonised (ie Elminster in the Heroes' Lorebook, Drizzt in the Heroes' Lorebook, Cale in an issue of Dragon, etc), this is more common than sourcebook material becoming used in a novel. So, you could very well have a shade that is born in a novel and created or made in a sourcebook.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-07-08, 10:25 PM	I wasn't arguing that novels weren't different to sourcebooks, which is why I said that novels can say one thing and that sourcebooks can say another. Sourcebooks don't necessarily reflect vis-a-vis what is written in a novel and vice versa. I've already made this quite clear and said it many times arleady, I don't know how I can make this more clear. So your saying that some novels are different than the source books, that really doesn't answer the question. And when in gaming have you ever tried to swaid the desicion of a DM on a sentacne in a novel, instead of the source book itself. I was under the impression that source books trump novels. Just because Drizzt uses the Su: Darkness more than once a day doesn't have all the gamers in the world trying to get there drow PC's to do the same. They go by the source books.
Philalexandros 01-12-08, 09:10 AM	Sourcebooks don't always reflect what the novels show because D&D rules are an imperfect simulation of a fantasy world... On the flip side, though, game supplements can, and typically do, codify and restrict what an author can and cannot describe in novels based on the setting. Artemis Entreri not properly reflecting through his stats what R.A. Salvatore describes is a limitation of the game rules. Artificial simulations will never properly reflect human development. D&D is no more capable of doing this than my Elder Scrolls: Oblivion character, who has never eaten or drank anything in his 3 weeks (thus far) on Cyrodill, but who nonetheless leaps everywhere he goes and does so while casting spells--so that he may gain experience and knowledge in mere days what others might struggle for over years. In this sense, I agree with E.S. Novels and sourcebooks are not always accountable to one another. Data can vary. I can't say I agree with his using this argument where this Shades subject is concerned, though. I won't say that there haven't been a number of novels that break D&D rules--or that even lead to the rules being changed! Arguing for a concept that defies established rules without supporting evidence, though--such as "Shades don't breed true"--strikes me as a bit disingenuous. As to whether which is more likely to happen: the sourcebooks taking from the novels or the novels taking from the sourcebooks? The answer to that is patently simple. Every single novel at the very least draws from the established realms--whether the Old Gray Box, the FRCS, or any number of supplements--geography, ecology, demographics, culture, society, political conditions, etc., etc., etc.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:58 AM	:: Sigh :: -KtM...:(
Zsych 02-29-08, 12:44 AM	If I recall correctly, the novel view was that where Enteri gained the powers of a shade, he did not actually know what they were yet, or have any mastery over them... I half-recall him starting to learn some ability regarding shadows, but I think his using all his shade abilities is going to take time(wonder when we'll see him next, then again... he was kinda lame-ified to the point that I no longer care about the character anymore)
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 02:19 AM	:: Sigh :: -KtM...:(So this was the thread of demi-god banishment?
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:58 PM	So this was the thread of demi-god banishment? -Indeed, PM not withstanding.