Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wesleytj 12-06-06, 11:52 AM	I think this could be a useful thread for those who are new to the realms, or those who haven't explored all the various areas of it, to help have a comparable basis with which to try to grasp all of the mulititude of cultures and kingdoms and realms to be found therein. Some of the connections between Forgotten Realms' regions and historical comparison are pretty obvious. For example, Chessenta is pretty clearly meant to resemble ancient Greece. Mulhorand is equivalent to Egypt. The Shaar is the Serengeti Plains of Africa. Maztica is the "new world" regions with the Aztecs, Incas, etc. So, what I'd like to do is get input from the rest of you in regards to some other regions in the realms and where their cultural basis comes from in the real world. I'll start the list: Chessenta - Greece Mulhorand - Egypt Shaar - Serengeti (ie Kenya) Maztica - Mayans/Aztec (ie Mexico)
Karsus the Mad 12-06-06, 12:39 PM	Unther always seemed like babylonian (or similar) based to me. Kozakura and Wa are Japanese based (different time periods). Shou Lung and Tu' Lung are both Chinese based (different time periods). Tabot is Tibet. Koryo is Korea. Hordelands seem to be the central steppes.
wesleytj 12-06-06, 12:56 PM	Unther always seemed like babylonian (or similar) based to me. Kozakura and Wa are Japanese based (different time periods). Shou Lung and Tu' Lung are both Chinese based (different time periods). Tabot is Tibet. Koryo is Korea. Hordelands seem to be the central steppes. Yeah, I always struggled with Unther over whether to call it Assyrian or Babylonian. It's definitely that region though. "Gilgeam" is a direct correlation to their epic tale of "Gilgamesh", that's the most obvious connection to me, but yeah, it's certianly one or the other.
Jiggawha 12-06-06, 01:14 PM	Gilgamesh was a Sumerian, that's different somewhat than Assyrian and Babylonian
Aratharn 12-06-06, 01:20 PM	wasn't Gilgamesh a legendery hero who desperatly saught immortality?
wesleytj 12-06-06, 01:21 PM	Gilgamesh was a Sumerian, that's different somewhat than Assyrian and Babylonian I thought Gilgamesh originally came from the same culture as Hammurabi, ie the Babylonians. At any rate, it's certainly that region. :)
wesleytj 12-06-06, 01:23 PM	wasn't Gilgamesh a legendery hero who desperatly saught immortality? Yes, that's correct. And also IIRC, he fought a legendary many headed monster named Tiamat...which is of course another D&D tie in.
Karsus the Mad 12-06-06, 01:25 PM	An easy way is to go with who was present when the Egyptians were taken by the Imaskari, since the descendents of Unther was taken at the same time. Both Assyrians and Babylonians controlled parts of Egypt, so the Untheric could be either of these. Either way, over time, breeding with the Imaskari produced the Mulan who then went on to found Mulhorand and Unther.
Jiggawha 12-06-06, 01:39 PM	I thought Gilgamesh originally came from the same culture as Hammurabi, ie the Babylonians. At any rate, it's certainly that region. :) Nah, Hamurabi show up 1000 years after, but his culture inherited much of Sumerian culture (through Akkadians). In the times of Hamurabi rose a local god of Babylon, Marduk who fought Tiamat. Gilgamesh didn't fight Tiamat, that is an another story, contained in the epic called Enuma Elish. Enuma Elish had been rewritten by Babylonian scribes who put their chief god Marduk in place of older sumerian/akkadian Enlil. Babylonians (meaning the 1st dynasty) mixed together many old myths and incorporated them into their own story to show supremacy of their own god i.e. their city among other city states
wesleytj 12-06-06, 01:45 PM	Nah, Hamurabi show up 1000 years after, but his culture inherited much of Sumerian culture (through Akkadians). In the times of Hamurabi rose a local god of Babylon, Marduk who fought Tiamat. Gilgamesh didn't fight Tiamat, that is an another story, contained in the epic called Enuma Elish. Enuma Elish had been rewritten by Babylonian scribes who put their chief god Marduk in place of older sumerian/akkadian Enlil. Babylonians (meaning the 1st dynasty) mixed together many old myths and incorporated them into their own story to show supremacy of their own god i.e. their city among other city states Wow, OK, apparently my knowledge about ancient Mesopotamia is not nearly what I thought it was. Anyway, if you say Gilgamesh is a Sumerian legend, then I'll go with that. My impression is that these cultures were all very similar over time anyway, although that could be wrong as well. At any rate, for the purposes of our discussion... Unther= Sumeria.
Faraer 12-06-06, 01:55 PM	As has been oft mentioned, those new to the Realms should best realize that the original, core part of the Realms is not analogous to our world, and our-world norms can't be assumed to apply. But, all the places mentioned are among those exceptions that are based on Earth, in their published forms, for various reasons... excepting the Shaar.
wesleytj 12-06-06, 01:58 PM	All the places mentioned are among those based on Earth, in their published forms, for various reasons... except the Shaar, which is not an Earth analogue. What makes you say that? It seems very similar to the wild African Serengeti savannahs to me.
Jiggawha 12-06-06, 02:00 PM	Unther= Sumeria I've never said that, only concerning Gilgamesh/Gilgeam Unther is a mix of all Mesopotamian cultures (more or less) spanning over more than two thousand years.
Faraer 12-06-06, 02:01 PM	I say it because I know it to be true of everywhere that wasn't added on to the setting by TSR or Earthified by Scott Bennie, from close reading of the sources and any number of statements by Ed. The Shaar is somewhat similar climatically, and has nomadic tribes, but that's the extent of the resemblance.
wesleytj 12-06-06, 03:12 PM	I've never said that, only concerning Gilgamesh/Gilgeam Unther is a mix of all Mesopotamian cultures (more or less) spanning over more than two thousand years. OK, we're trying to simplify here. So why don't we go back to the original statement of "Babylonian" then, since that tends to have more crossover. Unther = Babylon. It may not be 100% true, but as they say, it's "good enough for government work". All I'm really trying to do is get a general feel for each region so it may be easier to visualize, and therefore roleplay. When I free associate with the term "Babylonian", I picture big ziggurats, harsh legal cods, neat art, Gilgamesh, and all that. Oh and those funky curled beards.
boards 12-06-06, 07:58 PM	Tethyr = moorish spain Thay = fu manchu east, ie mysterious, evil, hot, eastern country bent on world domination
boards 12-06-06, 08:00 PM	sorry
BadCatMan 12-06-06, 08:38 PM	Most of the Earthified regions of Faerun aren't exact copies, just vaguely inspired by real world counterparts. Getting right down into the cultures and personalities of the real world source and the FR version shows them to be very different. Only cosmetic aspects like language and design stay. The effort of adapting the real world to a fantasy world inevitably produces a number of fundamental changes. And most can't be narrowed down to any specific country or time, it's usually a much wider area. The North, the Sword Coast and the Western Heartlands are all inspired by the whole of medieval Europe, from the Dark Ages to the late Medieval. And that's core, classic Realms. Maztica is likely inspired by all the South American cultures, though I don't know much about Maztica. Chessenta, Turmish and the Vilhon Reach are inspired by the Classical Mediterranean, from Carthage to Rome to Greece to Asia Minor, from the Mycenean to the end of the Roman Empire. Unther is based around the older Mesopotamian cultures, Babylonian and Sumerian (and probably a dash of Persian, Assyrian and Hittite as well), over however long they lasted for. And of course, the whole Turmish-Vilhon-Chessenta-Unther culture blurs into a line as well. Although it does bug even me that they are directly transported from Earth. For the record, three Earth cultures and associated pantheons crossed over with the Imaskari slaves: the Sumerian, the Babylonian, and the Egyptian. The Egyptians ultimately became Mulhorand, while the Sumerians and the Babylonians merged to become Unther, as well as their gods.
Faraer 12-06-06, 09:02 PM	The relation of the core Realms to Europe is very different from that of the analogues to their originals. Any given cultural fact about China probaby applies to Shou Lung: that kind of world-building encourages players/readers to make such assumptions so they understand the setting more quickly. Any given cultural fact about medieval or Renaissance Europe probably does not apply to the Heartlands: Ed's Realms is created to deliberately discourage assuming and instead encourage players to engage actively with the setting and find out its unique details and nature. Also, the influences on the Heartlands are far more from fiction than from history, so that reading the half-dozen most Realmslike fantasy authors will give you a better (though still very inaccurate) picture of the Realms than understanding any amount of European history.
wesleytj 12-06-06, 09:08 PM	Most of the Earthified regions of Faerun aren't exact copies, just vaguely inspired by real world counterparts. Getting right down into the cultures and personalities of the real world source and the FR version shows them to be very different. Only cosmetic aspects like language and design stay. The effort of adapting the real world to a fantasy world inevitably produces a number of fundamental changes. I'm not trying to make any effort to actually adapt the real world to the realms. What would be the point of that? I know the real world source is different than the cultures that inspired them, and am grateful for that. I don't WANT to play in a magical Earth, I want to play in the Realms. The reason I think this is a useful exercise is so that people who are new to a region, or to the realms in general, can help associate these cultures to their real world counterparts, solely to help them get a "feel" for how those cultures are. For example, in comparing Chessenta to ancient Greece, the idea is to think of the city-state model, the long-standing enmity between Athens and Sparta (aka Cimbar and Akanax). If you want to get a good idea of just how militaristic and individualistic the warrior culture of Akanax is, think of ancient Sparta. If you want to know what sorts of names they had so you can give your barkeep in Luthcheq an appropriate name, think of the characters in the Iliad or Odyssey. If you want to know what their art, armor and weaponry looks like, look up ancient greek art, armor, and weaponry. It's all about adding appropriate flavor to the regions, above and beyond what;s in the book. That's all I'm trying to do with this. And most can't be narrowed down to any specific country or time, it's usually a much wider area. Right, like I said, we're just going for the basics here. Although it does bug even me that they are directly transported from Earth. Well, honestly, give Ed a break. The man more or less single handedly created an entire planet from scratch. It's only natural to borrow bits from what he knows. Besides, even Tolkein, the original creator of a fantasy world, did it too. It's really easy to see real life cultures in Middle Earth if you do a little thinking about it, too. The Easterlings are clearly Chinese, the Haradrim are Arabic, and so on.
BadCatMan 12-06-06, 10:13 PM	That's all I'm trying to do with this. Of course, I agree completely. I do it myself. One of my favourite regions is Chessenta, which I've fleshed out with some aspects of ancient Greece. But it was just my take on the usual debate that occurs regularly around here, so I thought I'd try it out and head off the usual criticisms. I have no problems with it myself. Well, honestly, give Ed a break. The man more or less single handedly created an entire planet from scratch. It's only natural to borrow bits from what he knows. No, I mean that - in Realms history - ancient Egyptians, Sumerians and Babylonians were kidnapped by the Imaskari and portaled to Toril for slavery, where they eventually became the Mulan of Mulhorand and Unther. I just find it a bit jarring, like it was an episode of Stargate popping up in the Realms. (Hmm, I think the FR version came first.) I don't blame Scott Bennie either. He did a good job on Old Empires, and had to work from what little Ed gave him and what TSR ordered. And Ed originally had priests of Set, so he probably assumed they were meant to be the same god. Conversely, Scott Bennie's notes for the aborted Utter East region have no direct real world connection, and seem to be an entirely original, unique and exotic land.
Dark Wizard 12-06-06, 10:25 PM	Has some source definitively stated the origin world of the Mulan was Earth?
Faraer 12-06-06, 10:28 PM	I generally like Scott's work in FR10, but he did make the region more Earthlike than Ed's original, and I'm guessing -- though never checked -- he came up with the transplantation.
Jiggawha 12-07-06, 04:45 AM	For example, in comparing Chessenta to ancient Greece, the idea is to think of the city-state model, the long-standing enmity between Athens and Sparta (aka Cimbar and Akanax). Considering that now Tchazzar is the new Sceptanar. There are some historical similarities, so Tchazzar is a dragon tyrant of Cimbar just like the archon Draco (Δράκων) was in Athens. I imagine him setting laws with capital punishments even for minor crimes Someone mentioned Tethyr = Moorish Spain, lmao, what about the religion, it controls every aspect of life, you see that in Tethyr?
Faraer 12-07-06, 04:55 AM	Steven Schend, who write Lands of Intrigue, did say:As for the Amn / Tethyr bits, you guys are on the mark; there is probably more Calishite leftover culture in Amn because they were always a bit removed from the lash, unlike Tethyr. Thus, while both were born from a mix of immigrant conquerors/overlords from Calimshan, Amn and Tethyr have their touches of the south in varying degrees. That's why I always hint at the links to Moorish Spain and southern France for them--the architecture and some of the religion and customs remain, even if they outwardly hate the culture from which it came.But there are more differences from Moorish Spain than similarities: exactly the distinction between the original Realms and TSR's analogues.
BadCatMan 12-07-06, 05:24 AM	I generally like Scott's work in FR10, but he did make the region more Earthlike than Ed's original, and I'm guessing -- though never checked -- he came up with the transplantation. Now this is interesting. I skimmed through Old Empires - it starts with the destruction of the Raurin kingdom, a great war in which powerful humans fought against the gods to get their power, and they became god-kings - the gods of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons. No mention of the Imaskari or transplantation from other worlds yet. I'll keep looking.
Faraer 12-07-06, 05:56 AM	Not too hard-- I may be misremembering.
David E 12-07-06, 08:14 AM	Rashemen struck me as slightly ancient Russia-esque. Their names, at least, seem to be very Slavic-sounding. And an obvious real-world counterpart to the humans living on the Great Glacier would be the Inuit (eskimos).
Argaud 12-07-06, 08:55 AM	Considering that now Tchazzar is the new Sceptanar. There are some historical similarities, so Tchazzar is a dragon tyrant of Cimbar just like the archon Draco (Δράκων) was in Athens. I imagine him setting laws with capital punishments even for minor crimes. Tchazzar is chaotic evil, not lawful evil. Moreover, the PrC he took to become a demi-god forces him to follow his alignment very strictly. I am very curious about what is going to happen to Cimbar now. The very structure of the society must be giving cramps to that red dragon just from watching it going. Yet he needs to keep the city more or less intact if he is to use it to conquer the region.
Jiggawha 12-07-06, 09:56 AM	Tchazzar is chaotic evil, not lawful evil. Moreover, the PrC he took to become a demi-god forces him to follow his alignment very strictly. I am very curious about what is going to happen to Cimbar now. The very structure of the society must be giving cramps to that red dragon just from watching it going. Yet he needs to keep the city more or less intact if he is to use it to conquer the region. Yes but Tiamat isn't, all that he's ever done seems LE to me Rashemen struck me as slightly ancient Russia-esque. Their names, at least, seem to be very Slavic-sounding Some Rashemi names could have slavic-sounding e.g. Stayanoga (noga means foot, staya could mean standing but hardly), but names like Madislak, Vladislak should have ''slav'' (meaning ''glory'', ''vlad'' meaning ''rule'') in place of ''slak''. Also maybe Ulmokina (a in the end stands for female possessive pronoun). But that's all. All other names in Rashemi don't sound slavic at all. like Vrulla, Yuldra, Jandar, Nythra, Varro, Hyarmen etc., maybe ugro-finnish but I'm not an expert on those Damaran names are purely eastern slavic, like Pavel Shemov etc.
GothicDan 12-07-06, 01:40 PM	I'd agree that the majority of Rashemaar names seem more Ugro-Finnish or Teutonic. That makes sense, given that, I believe, there's been a connection made between them and the Rauthymar ("Vikings") of the Moonshaes.
Jiggawha 12-07-06, 02:25 PM	Yes, the name Rus could easily mislead to Russians
GothicDan 12-07-06, 02:27 PM	Well, the Rus did indeed help in 'settling' parts of Russia, but that was so long ago that I'd consider the cultures to be distinct from each other. (At least as much as one Indo-European culture can be from another.)
Jiggawha 12-07-06, 02:49 PM	There are several theories about that, one is that the Rus were Varyags (viking lords that ruled among the slavic tribes), maybe because of that Rashemi names are not Slavic
Aratharn 12-07-06, 03:11 PM	icewind dale sounds like siberia and if ten-town excluded it's like the iron era in europe 700 B.C. by the way there was a kind of people, whose name i don't know in english, who had iron weapons 1300 B.C. ( the german name is "Assyrer", but even with that I forgot how to spell it long ago:( , it has been seven years since i had seen it in school and had never looked it up again since then) it gave them a great military advantage in a time when everybody else had bronce weapons, in game therms you could strategicly compare it with iron and adamantium weapons although that might be exagerated
Jiggawha 12-07-06, 03:47 PM	icewind dale sounds like siberia and if ten-town excluded it's like the iron era in europe 700 B.C. You're comparing Icewind Dale barbarians with Hallstatt C culture, I'd say hardly, I don't remember do the barbarians bury their dead chiefs in huge tumuli mounds along with ornamental carriages and imported antic pottery, if they do they are similar by the way there was a kind of people, whose name i don't know in english, who had iron weapons 1300 B.C. ( the german name is "Assyrer", but even with that I forgot how to spell it long ago:( , it has been seven years since i had seen it in school and had never looked it up again since then) it gave them a great military advantage in a time when everybody else had bronce weapons, in game therms you could strategicly compare it with iron and adamantium weapons although that might be exagerated Yes, that were Assyrians, though their rise came after, around 1300 B.C. Hittites were almost exclusive in their use of iron (though there are some other theories), Assyrians came later with their military superiority, first with Tiglath Pileser I in the 12th century BC, or with the second rise with Ashurnarsipal II in the 9th century BC
GothicDan 12-07-06, 03:53 PM	I think, in general, people way, WAY too often look at the Realmsian cultures (or any fantasy cultures, really) and try to claim that they're "similar" to real life ones based purely on basic exterior demeanors (appearance, style of dress, level of technology)... Which, really, have about the least to do with a peoples' culture that you can get, since it completely ignores their religions, histories, myths, superstitions, rituals, thoughts on the afterlife, etc. Just because you have dark skin, wear limited clothing, and hunt with a spear, and live in a very hot, grassy area, does not mean that you're African. It means that you adapted logically to your environment.
Aratharn 12-07-06, 03:57 PM	wow, that was precise, are you a history teacher or something? i get the impression that the kingdoms on the near and middle east were not so longlived as one might believe, i remember babylon being destroied several times (i might be mistaken) and it relly changed a lot, in 300 years there were at least 3 diffrent empires for the same territories, compared to that the western world has many longer lived countries even if they changed a lot over the last 500 years, like Luxembourg (were i'm from ::ayyyy!: ), Germany ( there was a time it called itself the: "holy roman realm of german nation", in german it's : "Heiliges römisches Reich deutscher Nation" it's really a weird and long name), France, Spain, England and so on, most of them have existed more then 300 years ( 500 years ago, Luxembourg was an independant duchy and is now a grand-duchy, dispite the fact that it had been cut down to one third of it's original size at the same time it was "elevated")
wesleytj 12-07-06, 03:58 PM	well, clearly, religion is not going to be the same in any of the realms to RL, with the possible exception of mulhorand. faerun has its own pantheon, and so naturally the religious differences may be marked. but that doesn't mean that the whole exercise has no worth. it's all about making it easier for dms and players to build a "feel" into their game that fits the region in a sensible and believable way. thanks for all the posts so far guys...this has been very much what i was hoping to get out of starting the topic.
Jiggawha 12-07-06, 04:03 PM	Archaeologist (well, not complete yet) Yes kingdoms and dynasties were not longlasting but many cities lasted for thousands of years after being destroyed many times, something like Illusk/Luskan but more complex
GothicDan 12-07-06, 04:03 PM	I think that a lot of it comes down onto the DM's shoulders, and in large part it depends on how accurately you want to portray the Realms. Me? I'd scour everything I could find in canon (and from Ed's words) about the given culture... And, well, use it, and make what I'd think to be appropriate socio-cultural extrapolations. That's the physicist in me: gather all data, analyze trends, conject hypothetical situations, compute most probably results of the system in question, Trying to look at one system that only has the barest bones similar to another, and then trying to use the conclusions of the latter to project hypotheses on the former, is the sort of thing that really messes things up. A thread on trying to gather, solidify, and expand on the themes and traditions of specific Realmsian cultures, without falling back on shallow Earth analogies, would be probably more beneficial to DMs (not to mention more appropriate and creative).
boards 12-07-06, 04:31 PM	Steven Schend, who write Lands of Intrigue, did say:But there are more differences from Moorish Spain than similarities: exactly the distinction between the original Realms and TSR's analogues. Thanx Faraer That is what I was thinking of.
boards 12-07-06, 04:33 PM	Steven Schend, who write Lands of Intrigue, did say: Quote: As for the Amn / Tethyr bits, you guys are on the mark; there is probably more Calishite leftover culture in Amn because they were always a bit removed from the lash, unlike Tethyr. Thus, while both were born from a mix of immigrant conquerors/overlords from Calimshan, Amn and Tethyr have their touches of the south in varying degrees. That's why I always hint at the links to Moorish Spain and southern France for them--the architecture and some of the religion and customs remain, even if they outwardly hate the culture from which it came. Steven Schend, who write Lands of Intrigue, did say:But there are more differences from Moorish Spain than similarities: exactly the distinction between the original Realms and TSR's analogues. Thanx Faraer That is what I was thinking of.
maelstrom58 12-07-06, 08:58 PM	However, not all of these nations are from ancient and middle age cultures. Thay, especially, reminds me of Soviet Russia...very slightly. After all, they are *red* wizards.
Dark Wizard 12-07-06, 09:20 PM	More like the Chinese with their sizeable reserves of military power and the flooding of the markets with cheap items.
wesleytj 12-07-06, 10:26 PM	A thread on trying to gather, solidify, and expand on the themes and traditions of specific Realmsian cultures, without falling back on shallow Earth analogies, would be probably more beneficial to DMs (not to mention more appropriate and creative). Sure...it's also a lot harder, and requires a lot more time, research and creativity that many of us don't have. Plus, I find speculation of this sort fun and interesting. In the absence of that, the "shallow Earth analogies" should work pretty well. After all, it's clear in many cases that Greenwood was (at least subconsciously) thinking of these himself when he created them.
wesleytj 12-07-06, 10:32 PM	More like the Chinese with their sizeable reserves of military power and the flooding of the markets with cheap items. I have a lot of trouble classifying Thay as well. I don't really think they fit a mold of any earth history well enough to be considered worth matching up to, but if there is one, I would think it would be Soviet Russian, not China. For one, the USSR has extremely cheap goods when it was in power as well. (and cheaply made too, you couldn't leave Soviet-era televisions turned on when you left the room, because they had a reputation for spontaneous combustion...and there's a reason nobody drives imported soviet cars either) They also had important provincial divisions (SSR's), and the whole "red" thing can't be denied. Also planting "cells" in other nations to attempt to subvert them at some point was very much a Leninst notion for spreading Communism. However, again, I don't think that they match up to Thay very well culturally, so I'd tend to leave it out of such a discussion.
wesleytj 12-07-06, 10:35 PM	Calimshan has been mentioned a few times as well. And clearly it is an Arabic land...but it's tough for me to pin down which is most clearly resembles. The flying carpet references to me are pretty clearly Persian, but at the same time, there seems to be a heavy Moroccan influence. Thoughts?
Dark Wizard 12-07-06, 10:36 PM	The problem with these sorts of analogies is that it takes more words to explain "Faerun region/nation X is like Earth region/nation Y except for...." then to simply give a good outline of the Faerun region/nation/culture.
Faraer 12-08-06, 01:23 AM	Calimshan has been mentioned a few times as well. And clearly it is an Arabic land...but it's tough for me to pin down which is most clearly resembles.Exactly. Other than that it's obviously vaguely Middle Eastern, why do you want to liken it to Earth more specifically when Calimshan is its own distinct, detailed culture? It would only be misleading.The problem with these sorts of analogies is that it takes more words to explain "Faerun region/nation X is like Earth region/nation Y except for...." then to simply give a good outline of the Faerun region/nation/culture.Exactly. If your characters encounter a Calishite in play, best to convey an air of exotic mystery without letting the players mentally write him off as 'just' a fantasy Arab. If you're playing in Calimshan, you need to engage with Calimshan in more depth than superficial likenesses.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-08-06, 01:41 AM	Sembia reminds me of Italy, with lots of rich merchants making upthe nobility, and I've fleshed it out with a more Italian renaissance feel. Amn, with it's monopoly on trade with maztica, and the fact that's war torn, seems to me like spain circa 1500.
GothicDan 12-08-06, 11:52 AM	In the absence of that, the "shallow Earth analogies" should work pretty well. After all, it's clear in many cases that Greenwood was (at least subconsciously) thinking of these himself when he created them. He's actually given a rather detailed description of his thoughts behind many of the major cultures of Faerun, with their inspirations listed. The only one that was in his original Realms, that had anything resembling a direct real world analogy, was Cormyr, in that it was supposed to be "roughly Arthurian." And even then, many people liken Cormyr more to certain ages of France's history. So much for subconscious inspiration being blatant. ;) And really, if someone has the time and desire to engage in this thread at all, that means they have at least SOME time to actually accurately portray the Realms. No matter whether you put it in quotes, the analogies being drawn between Faerunian cultures and Earth cultures are still shallow. Note that I'm not trying to get personal or anything. This is just a topic that's been brought up many, MANY times before, and people tend to start yammering on about "OMG Cormyr is JUST England" and how the Uthgardt tribes are just Vikings, etc. It's patently not true, and to present the cultures as such is a direct insult to their creator, who HAS been very truthful when he did draw some inspirations from real life. But they were rarely, if ever, more than rough cultural archetypes, not tied to specific nations or eras.
wesleytj 12-08-06, 12:35 PM	Dan Certainly none of your objections have been taken personally. It's totally fine. As you mentioned before, you're a Physicist, and that tends to color your views a certain way towards a more thorough, analytical approach. There's certainly nothing wrong with that "pure science" approach. I enjoy Astronomy particularly, so I read some physics stuff in conjunction with that. I also love Stephen Hawking's books, he can really lay out complicated astrophysical theories in a way that can be grasped without all the math in the way, so you can just get to the point of what they're talking about. All that aside, my degrees are in Economics and Political Science, and my specialty in the Polysci arena was Comparative Politics, so this is very much in line with the way I think. I like to find commonalities in various disparate systems, and extrapolate patterns and trends and such. More of a "social science" approach, which rarely has simple math at it's face, because people aren't automatons. That's why you can ask 100 economists the same question and get 100 different answers. That doesn't make the study meaningless though. Anyway, I am in no way attempting to denigrate the realms or to over-simplify it's cultures. I've tried to make that as clear as possible all along the way here. In no way to I intend to portray Chessenta as "Just Like Ancient Greece" in any games I run. However, when filling in the blanks of my actual realms knowledge, which is admittedly imperfect, I will use my knowledge of these 'corresponding' regions to fill in the gaps. For example, sticking with the Chessenta theme, if one of my players plans on making a PC from there, and asks me what sorts of things Chessentans ate, I would have no idea. I could either stop the game and try to do some research in some source I may or may not have, OR I could just say "goat cheese, fish, and mutton are staples of the Chessentan diet". Not that I couldn't do that anyway, but at least with my Greek knowledge, it's based on SOMETHING that should roughly equate to the culture, as opposed to just making up some random crap. I could make similar calls about other stuff not directly covered in the campaign materials, such as art, clothing, names, and so on. And if I have something from which to draw my opinions, it gives them a little more credence, and helps build a more coherent picture of the whole culture, at least in my mind. I'm really trying to DEEPEN the roleplaying experience here, not cheapen as I think you might fear I am doing by making simple correlations. As for the time thing, most of my posting occurs at work when times are a little slow, and during my lunch break (like now). I think my bosses would not approve of me bringing my gaming materials to work. So my time to post, and my time to do Realms research are two very different entities. I have a busy work life, and a busy home life, with a wife and 1year old kid. On top of that, I'm trying to set up to run a realms game (mostly based off the "Savage Tide" adventure path in Dungeon magazine, if you haven't heard of it I highly recommend it, easily converted to FR), and while it is based mostly at sea and the port city of Tashluta, I've told the PC's they can come from any region of Faerun with a coastal area, because by their nature, sailors' travels take them all over. So I want at least a cursory knowledge of all of them, beyond what I have read. I own most of the supplements, but haven't read everything I own. Most of what I own has been skimmed, or I've read specific parts as they apply to what I'm doing, but I don't have time to just sit down and read them cover to cover. And as I said, I don't read the novels much at all. I hope that makes some sense. I have nothing but respect for all the people who have posted to this thread, either to add to it or to question it's purpose. Nothing personal intended or taken on my account. I also respect the Realms, and enjoy Realms lore. I wish I had more time to devote to it than I do. But the fact is I don't. And I think discussions like this are useful for helping fill in gaps which may or may not come up in a game setting.
Draegun Fury 12-08-06, 01:08 PM	The Moonshaes are clearly, Irish/Scottish with perhas a hint of English. I wouldn't know what era to pin it down too. Rauthym (and its various colonies) = Scandanavia (circ. 800 A.D. to 1300 A.D.) Rashaman definetly has a Russian Feel to it (especialy when the Viking Rus ruled there). Cheers.
GothicDan 12-08-06, 01:56 PM	All that aside, my degrees are in Economics and Political Science, and my specialty in the Polysci arena was Comparative Politics, so this is very much in line with the way I think. I like to find commonalities in various disparate systems, and extrapolate patterns and trends and such. More of a "social science" approach, which rarely has simple math at it's face, because people aren't automatons. I have a lot of academic interests, myself. I may be studying Physics and Math, but I'm also studying Latin Classics. I'm very much a history buff (pre-medieval, mostly, and specifically, Teutonic, Etruscan, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, and pushing further east as I go along), and am pretty knowledgable about neurology and psychology (sister's a psychologist, and three members of my family work with mentally handicapped [especially Autistic] children). I'm not trying to 'show off,' but just saying that I try to apply a more holistic approach (one could call it the scientific method, I suppose) to ANY field. A lot of the oldest FR fans (Faraer, Old Sage, and the like) seem to do the same, too, and neither of them are physicists. ;) I think it's more a personal trait than a professional one, in other words - it's one's style. Anyway, I am in no way attempting to denigrate the realms or to over-simplify it's cultures. I've tried to make that as clear as possible all along the way here. In no way to I intend to portray Chessenta as "Just Like Ancient Greece" in any games I run. However, when filling in the blanks of my actual realms knowledge, which is admittedly imperfect, I will use my knowledge of these 'corresponding' regions to fill in the gaps. That's totally understandable. But I would just hope that you REALLY think about the DIFFERENCES between those corresponding regions, too. Religion and magic, realistically, make a world of difference between two cultures, even if they are geographically similar in terms of development. For example, sticking with the Chessenta theme, if one of my players plans on making a PC from there, and asks me what sorts of things Chessentans ate, I would have no idea. I could either stop the game and try to do some research in some source I may or may not have, OR I could just say "goat cheese, fish, and mutton are staples of the Chessentan diet". Not that I couldn't do that anyway, but at least with my Greek knowledge, it's based on SOMETHING that should roughly equate to the culture, as opposed to just making up some random crap. See, my DM style is a little different. I'm working on putting together (slowly) a very complex, well-researched World of Darkness game set in London. One of the characters wanted to play a Mokole - a were-reptile. There are no large reptiles native to London, but there ARE myths of dragons! I figured it was the Indo-European connection (since there HAVE been draconic figures for thousands of years, further east). So I spent a few days, and about 14 pages, actually detailing the 'Dragon' Mokole of London, their history, their society, how they blended with human cultures over the years (or battled with them), from the Mythic Age (when I made England part of a once much larger Lemuria) to the Middle Ages (during which the Inquisition sought out slumbering dragons as agents of Satan and slew them - a la Sir George), and the like. Real world archetypes are fine, I think, as a starting point, when coupled with what we do know about the Realms. But saying that "Sembia is like Italy" is a huge stretch, to me. It has a lot of trade, right? Okay. Every culture throughout time, at one point, had cities and city states that were known for trade. That's what made almost every major city in the world into what they are - centers of trade. What about their disdain for Elves? And, again, religion? That's probably the HUGEST difference between Sembia and Italy, even moreso than other areas of Faerun. There aren't a whole lot of Popes running around in Sembia. What about Italy's connection to Greece? That was basically the entire defining basis for Roman culture as it emerged (as well as Etruscan influence, and the previous Villanovan, and the like), but we don't see ANY connections between Sembia and Chessenta, at all. As Dark Wizard said, the list of "How Sembia is like Italy" is infinitely shorter than "How Sembia is NOT like Italy." If these analogies are ACTUALLY helpful to you, cool. But the kind of replies that we've seen so far - well, I really wouldn't see them as being particularly helpful at all to portraying aspects of Faerunian cultures. What someone eats is much more a function of the natural resources, climate, geography, and the like of a culture than the actual society itself. So it would be better to ask what flora and fauna grow in an area. And we actually DO have a good bit of knowledge about such things (Sembian Red Wine, for example, is pretty renowned!) from Ed (particularly in the Volo's Guides). I could make similar calls about other stuff not directly covered in the campaign materials, such as art, clothing, names, and so on. And if I have something from which to draw my opinions, it gives them a little more credence, and helps build a more coherent picture of the whole culture, at least in my mind. Some of those things are perfectly acceptable for SOME of the regions of Faerun, but for many others, not at all. Art is heavily inspired by religion, cultural exchange, and available resources. When you have completely different religions, different cultures exchanging at different times in different ways, an potentially vastly different resources, how could you expect (for example) Sembian art to be particularly similar to Italian? [Who would have thunk my course on Classical Art would come in handy?] I'm really trying to DEEPEN the roleplaying experience here, not cheapen as I think you might fear I am doing by making simple correlations. I think it's really just a matter of opinion. I'm personally glad that you are not trying to cheapen the roleplaying experience. That IS the most important part of any RPG - the roleplaying aspect. I just don't know why (this is probably a completely personal thing) it's really that much harder to extrapolate from the given information to answer such questions yourself (when they're not answere for you). Then again, perhaps I'm not sure just HOW closely you're using such real world analogous information to describe aspects of the Realms. As for the time thing, most of my posting occurs at work when times are a little slow, and during my lunch break (like now). I think my bosses would not approve of me bringing my gaming materials to work. So my time to post, and my time to do Realms research are two very different entities. Posting can be Realms research in itself, y'know. ;) I have a busy work life, and a busy home life, with a wife and 1year old kid. On top of that, I'm trying to set up to run a realms game (mostly based off the "Savage Tide" adventure path in Dungeon magazine, if you haven't heard of it I highly recommend it, easily converted to FR), and while it is based mostly at sea and the port city of Tashluta, I've told the PC's they can come from any region of Faerun with a coastal area, because by their nature, sailors' travels take them all over. So I want at least a cursory knowledge of all of them, beyond what I have read. I know how you feel. I've been setting up my game for weeks. Each week, I typically go two days without sleep, average upwards of 75 hours a week either in class or working directly on academic things, plus another 15 or so hours of yearbook work (I'm the editor). I can only imagine what it's going to be like next semester, since I'm taking more diffucult physics courses, an independent research, an becoming a physics TA, too. But I' rather do something 'right' (from my point of view), and spend a LONG time on it (I have about 100 typed pages of notes, timelines, plots, NPCs, etc. for the game I'm currently working on), then make something which I feel is not all it could be. It's the Sun Elf in me, I suppose - if you take up a path, you perfect it, or you don't do it at all! I'm a Wizard, not a bard. Pft. ;) I own most of the supplements, but haven't read everything I own. Most of what I own has been skimmed, or I've read specific parts as they apply to what I'm doing, but I don't have time to just sit down and read them cover to cover. And as I said, I don't read the novels much at all. I haven't bought many of the 3E supplements at all, an have only read a double handful of the novels, myself. Most of my knowledge comes from reading older supplements, Ed's answers online, and older Realmsian experts. The boards are really wonderful resources. If you ask questions about specific things, within a few days, you'll often either have direct answers, specific sourcebooks to look into (rather than having to try to sift through dozens), or at least some applicable conclusions from people who are knowledgeable enough on the Realms to come to them. I hope that makes some sense. I have nothing but respect for all the people who have posted to this thread, either to add to it or to question it's purpose. Nothing personal intended or taken on my account. I also respect the Realms, and enjoy Realms lore. I wish I had more time to devote to it than I do. But the fact is I don't. And I think discussions like this are useful for helping fill in gaps which may or may not come up in a game setting. I'm sorry for being a bit snappy. As I said, such threads have come up dozens of times before, and every time, they've been much more.... Single-minded and disparaging as to the Realms. Perhaps Faraer or Old Sage has the quote handy from Ed concerning the list of his inspirations for many of the Realmsian cultures? I believe it was made in response to a poster's question for a research paper she was writing on analogous fantasy cultures...
wesleytj 12-13-06, 12:13 PM	Thank you Dan for your thoughtful reply. Without going into it point by point, let me just summarize by saying that in general, I agree with you. And yes, posting here is definitely among the best Realms research time I've spent, not just this thread but others. There really is a great resource to be had here for people willing to make the effort for it, and I truly appreciate all the responses I've gotten on this topic, and others I have posted to in the past. The first post I made on here several months ago about doing a nautical based campaign is really what helped propel my imagination to do the campaign, and I had tons of really great ideas for adventure hooks and the whole bit. My problem, as I said, was finding a coherent storyline to help connect all the various subplots, and Dungeon magazine stepped in right in time with the Savage Tide. Couldn't have worked out any better for me, honestly. Now, having said all that, I do still see some practical use for having simple comparisons to help in setting a flavorful setting. To quote one bit frmo your last post... >Then again, perhaps I'm not sure just HOW closely you're using such real world analogous information to describe aspects of the Realms.< The answer is "not very much". Only things like what sort of accent I butcher when I'm acting the part of NPC. In short, only things the setting materials I've read don't directly answer. The idea is that when I have to make up something "on the fly" because it was something I wasn't particularly prepared for, I have __something__ tangible to fall back on. I have not read any of the "Volo's Guides", in fact I hadn't heard of them before this topic (see above about how useful these boards are), but it's becoming clear that I need to look into acquiring them somehow. Having said all of that, here is a working list of some relatively good comparisons, from the responses so far to this topic: Chessenta - Greece Mulhorand - Egypt Maztica - Mexico / Central America Unther - Babylon / Mesopotamia (various) Kozakura - Japan Wa - Japan Shou Lung - China Tu' Lung - China Tabot - Tibet Koryo - Korea Hordelands - Mongol Empire Amn/Tethyr - Moorish Spain, Aragon/Castille Rasheman - Finn/Teutonic Russia Sembia - Italy Moonshaes - Eire mainly, some Scottish influx Rauthym - Denmark primarily Thay - I think I am talking myself into seeing these guys as Stalinist/Leninst USSR more and more... Shaar - Serengeti plains - still not entirely convinced that this isn't a good enough comparison for what we're doing here. Again, it's an important disclaimer to add that these are only rough comparisons, and not meant to override anything in the official or unofficial realms material. Keep those responses coming! And thanks to those who have contributed so far. I'll edit this note as more people add opinions.
Karsus the Mad 12-13-06, 07:44 PM	Chessenta - Greece Mulhorand - Egypt Maztica - Mexico / Central America Unther - Babylon / Mesopotamia (various) Kozakura - Japan Wa - Japan Shou Lung - China Tu' Lung - China Tabot - Tibet Koryo - Korea Wow. Did I not note that already? It was whoever brought up Sembia=Moorish Spain that caused the debate.
Chrysalis 12-17-06, 08:39 AM	Yes but Tiamat isn't, all that he's ever done seems LE to me Some Rashemi names could have slavic-sounding e.g. Stayanoga (noga means foot, staya could mean standing but hardly), but names like Madislak, Vladislak should have ''slav'' (meaning ''glory'', ''vlad'' meaning ''rule'') in place of ''slak''. Also maybe Ulmokina (a in the end stands for female possessive pronoun). But that's all. All other names in Rashemi don't sound slavic at all. like Vrulla, Yuldra, Jandar, Nythra, Varro, Hyarmen etc., maybe ugro-finnish but I'm not an expert on those Damaran names are purely eastern slavic, like Pavel Shemov etc. I believe the word you are looking for is Finno-Ugric. Slavic is actually a cultural group that includes an area that spans most of the Volga and its offshoots. The cultural markers are very much similar implying that there was a great deal of cultural exchange in oral traditions and language. The brunt of the research that was done was in the 50's and 60's in Russia and of course the more interesting journals are in Russian. Nog actually means the head, the mind, the face and its expressions. Interestingly English has the word noggin, but it supposedly comes from the Gaelic for a small cup and not from the Russian. Ruk means hand. Staya means to stand, but it is also a semi compound I think (my databases are not allowing me access on a sunday), come from from the suffix "sta" (from or the place where it began) and the article "a" (me or I). Stayanoga is a place name and conforms to place name construction. From the above it can be inferred that it means "the place where I looked from to journey and I held my head [up high]", this conforms with the functionality of place names informing of a feature that can be used as a navigational aid often having a historical or mythical purpose. Vlad actually comes from the word volod, to rule. Vladivostok for example. The place to rule the east. In some local dialects in Bulgaria and Hungaria Volod can used interchangably with monarch. Slak could actually be actually s-lak. s in Russian is a preposition meaning roughly from. lak can mean lake, wet, mere, or marsh in proto-germanic and some slavic dialects. Vladislak could then mean place to rule (from) the waters. A natural fortification that contains commercial importance as a hub for example (possibly renamed by the Rus vikings circa 11th century). In the area of what is Slavic there is such a great conjunction of various different languages that they could have all special meaning. But most game writers do not have a background in Slavic languages and if they did they would be out making big money as English speaking linguists and not making books that give them barely enough to put butter on their bread.
GothicDan 12-17-06, 09:54 PM	I just had an etymologasm. I'm going to go clean up now.
The_Shaman 12-18-06, 06:02 AM	Calimshan imo has a bit of the feel of the Caliphate culture, perhaps in its "golden age" around 800-900. It's a bit hard to say, of course, but at that time it also blended a lot of cultural elements from Persia, the Mediterranean, and the Arabian peninsula.
velisarios 03-23-07, 09:59 AM	I have to add that the Chondath and Sespets realms are like Byzantines (especially Sespets).:)