| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| BGracian08-19-07, 08:02 AM | Why is it that most cities in Faerun are on the coast? |
| Fabius Maximus08-19-07, 08:47 AM | The same reason why coastlines and waterways on earth are dotted with cities: Access to water means resources (food) and ease of transporting goods. |
| Derren S.08-19-07, 09:20 AM | Because they look nice on the map... The FR is not build according to any logic. The cities etc. were placed according to the whims of the designer. Access to the sea would be a lot less important in the FR than in the real world because with all the aquatic monsters the seas are a lot more dangerous. Against aquatic creatures ships are basically defenseles unless every ship is escorted by several capable mages. That means sea travel is a lot less important in FR. |
| Fabius Maximus08-19-07, 11:34 AM | The trading companies of Faerun's western coast will be surprised to hear that, Derren. They ferry their goods through Sword Sea and Shining Sea for hundreds of years now. And now you go and tell that it's not important. :p See it this way: Overland transportation is slow, and also dangerous. Magical transportation is not easily accessible. Only Halruaa and Nimbral have airships. Besides: Thar be Dragons! And other flying stuff. Sea trade is as viable and reliable as other means of travel in the Realms. |
| Thinblade08-19-07, 01:09 PM | You say that as though there aren't any monters on land, Derren. Considering how dangerous sea trade was on Earth, the addition of random sea monsters does not appreciably increase the risk of sailing. And the amount of goods you can fit in a cargo ship dwarfs that you could have in a caravan. Also, sea monsters (like, say, the sahuagin) happen to have plenty of other creatures in their own habitat to attack and kill (like, say, sea elves, or 'chitls, or koa toa, or merrow, or, or, or) without having to attack surface ships for fun and profit. Yes, the occasional ship is lost to sea monsters, but just as many or more are lost to bad weather or pirates, same as on old Earth. Bottom line, if you want to move large quantities of goods, a ship (or barge along a river) is the best way to do it. |
| MarkusTay6308-19-07, 02:10 PM | Yes, its all in balance. The land-based dangers are just as prevalent as the sea-based, and natives of Toril will have developed tactics to fight them. Even the average farmer and his family in the North will have a few levels of fighter, because of where they live. The power level of Faerūn goes up across the board, not just 'at sea'. That being said, the larger settlements would be located along the coast because of trade. The world maps only show the largest and most important settlements - there are FAR MORE settlements on the interior then the coast, but the maps don't reflect every single village, Thorp, and Hamlet. And besides, they don't call the gents running this show "Wizards of the Coast" for nothing. ;) |
| Derren S.08-19-07, 02:24 PM | The difference is that you can normally defend yourself against land based enemies. Ships attacked by aquatic monsters are completly defenseless. Or at least I do have no idea how a ship would defend itself from attacks from below with ressource effective means. |
| BGracian08-19-07, 04:29 PM | Actually there are many more inland cities in the real world mostly because of defense. There are some very important cities on the coast;Venice, Constantinople, Alexandria. There are far more and bigger cities inland; Rome, Paris, Babylon. The coast is mostly dotted with towns and villages, of which inland cities usually control, or try to, for access to the sea. With the exception of air attack, where it does not matter whether you're on the coast or inland, placing a city on a hill is always safer. It is not just monsters but also natural disasters and invading armies. A city on the coast can be attacked without warning while a city on a hill usually has a few days to prepare. There should be cities on the coast in Faerun, but not 75%. The map looks silly. |
| Dark Wizard08-19-07, 05:08 PM | I'm not sure about 75%. Certainly a number of important cities dot the coast, but a good amount are found inland or have access to a controlled river or lake (which is another feature of many historical cities, even ones not found on a coast). Some of the most important cities in the realms are inland including Silverymoon (Silver Marches' capital), Darromar (Tethyr's capital), Ordulin (Sembia's apital), Heliogabalus (Damara's capital), and even Myth Drannor (capital of Cormanthor). Aside from those, major cities are found along land caravan routes such as many of the cities in the Western Heartlands, practically all of the Silver Marches, many vital caravan cities in Amn and Tethyr, most of the Shaaran cities, several cities in Thay, the cities along the two main routes east into Kara-Tur (found in Thesk and Murghom), amongst others. Some cities that appear on the coast actually have their centers located several miles inland usually just with the docks district along the shore. Some of them are built around a coastal hill like Waterdeep, so fortifications and high ground are utilized just the same. So while the Realms aren't 'perfect' it's not 'silly' either. |
| BGracian08-19-07, 06:05 PM | Looking at the Sea of Fallen Stars and its arms about 90% of the cities are on the coast. 100% of the cities in Chondath. The only cities inland in Faerun are ones where there is no coastline between population areas. When you compare maps of fourteenth century Earth to Faerun it does look a little silly. Costal cities on Earth are there because of stratigic trade lanes and or a good defensible location. Those cities also have great navies which are expensive to upkeep. If every city were on the coast there would not be enough profit to maintain the navy. Venice and Genoa controlled most of the northern Mediterrainian and also most of the trade. It is the inland cities that do most of the producing, they have access to more resources. It is not that big of a deal. I am pulling most of the cities back from the coast. The map of Faerun leaves a lot of prime realistate open to wandering monsters. I would have liked to have seen a little more thought and comparison to Earth when they placed the cities. City locals affect story. A world in which most of the cities are on the coast is much different than one with most of the cities inland. |
| Dark Wizard08-19-07, 07:05 PM | I'm not sure why Faerun has to directly compare to a specific period of Earth. While there should be a few similarities, the differences in history, culture and magic/technology account for some significant differences. As for the other differences, I guess we're looking at different maps. When I look at a map of Europe (modern or otherwise), I see just as many coastal communities large and small as there are inland settlements. Especially since I noted that several "coastal" cities in the Realms are actually pulled back from the coast a bit already. Many of them are up-river a bit before the river's mouth at the shore, which is similar to many Earth cities. Some of the most historically famous or economically important cities in Europe are coastal port cities, like Athens, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Hamburg, Lisbon, Odessa, St. Petersburg and Istanbul. You do know how hard the Russians try to gain access to port space. These are the cities that make it on the map and one could easily name off the top of your head. It is a little harder with inland cities. I named some important inland Faerunian cities and they correspond roughly with the number of important inland cities of Europe. Several Realms capitals (and some strategic trade and military points) are inland cities. Despite the prominence on the Realms map for coastal cities, there are more people and loose settlements inland than there are along the coast. You're right, there is more production inland, thus why most inland settlements are small fortified towns or villages and homesteads scattered across a vast area. We see big cities on the coast because they need to be big to support the economic activity and for defense. I think the coastal cities have the sufficient navies you're looking for. Jhaamdath went to war against the elves because they were trying to build a large navy to dominate the Inner Sea region and the resources were limited, thus the war. All the major powers along the coast do have significant navies (Cormyr, Sembia, Impiltur, Thay, Waterdeep, Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, etc.) Part of the reason for prominent coastal cities may be that there are more nations with coastlines, there are few truly landlocked kingdoms in the Realms and every nation wants a good port to trade with others. Not all the port cities are equal with each other, Waterdeep dominates sea trade in the North to the chagrin of Luskan and sometimes Baldur's Gate. Sembia is a big player in the Inner Sea despite Westgate's fervent attempts to undermine them. Teflamm dominates trade in and out of Thesk, which can't do much to compete with that. Thay uses its navy to keep a close watch on Mulhorand and Aglarond. And so on and so forth. You probably disagree but I think the Realms comes fairly close to your criterion. By the way, which map of the Faerun are you looking at? The 3e ones doesn't show many smaller settlements. While the 2e map does show many more minor cities and towns along the coast, it also shows many additional inland settlements and the symbol for small cities is more prominent so the map looks a bit more balanced. |
| BGracian08-19-07, 08:07 PM | FR should relate enough to Earth so that we have something to relate with. If it is too dissimular then we would be lost. Faerun has many Earthlike characteristics: histories, technology, religion, trade. It is a fantasised version of renaissance Europe, Africa, and the Near East. Your example cities are from all over history. At any given time there were only a few prominent costal cities. Most of the settlements on the coast were actualy towns which made a living through fishing and being a rest stop for ships. Most of these towns were actually dominated by the prominant costal cities or inland cities. For an area the size of the Sea of Fallen Stars there might have been that many good sized settlements. There would have been a lot more and larger cities inland. Rome is 20 miles from the Tyrrhenian Sea with Ostia acting as its port. They are two separate cities. Using Italy as an example, due to its relative coastline compared to inland area, far more settelments were inland. If you take away the smaller settlements there are still more inland cities than those on the coast. I understand that there are more settlements than the mapmakers want to put on the map. My problem is that most settlements that are important enough to place on a map and to write about in their books are on the coast. It does not fit with my understanding of history and economics. I am adjusting the maps in my Faerun. FR is a great campaign world. I would have liked a little more attention to detail. I am using the map downloaded from this website. |
| Dark Wizard08-19-07, 11:34 PM | FR should relate enough to Earth so that we have something to relate with. If it is too dissimular then we would be lost. Faerun has many Earthlike characteristics: histories, technology, religion, trade. It is a fantasised version of renaissance Europe, Africa, and the Near East. While I think I understand where you're coming from, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the bit about similar histories, technology, religion and trade. Very little of the actual history is similar to Earth's. Even if you mean historical trends, there are a multitude of factors that force the Realms and Earth to diverge. Technology runs the gamut in the Realms, it is somewhat more linear in Earth, to say nothing of the little magic that does make it into the wider Realms. Most religions are nothing alike, especially the major trends. Trade is greatly influenced by differing cultures and possibly magic. Also remember the coastline is very different and the area of Faerun is significatly larger than Europe and even some of the immediate neighboring areas. You can apply some of Earth's logic (in regards to medieval or renaissance examples) to the Realms, but not all of it. For example due to magic, some regions have far fewer farmers than is traditionally necessary to feed the population, the dynamic is a bit closer to the modern day. Is it a cheap escape clause? Perhaps. The position is not as defensible with real world examples, but it also ablates some attempts at analogies. Your example cities are from all over history. At any given time there were only a few prominent costal cities. Most of the settlements on the coast were actualy towns which made a living through fishing and being a rest stop for ships. Most of these towns were actually dominated by the prominant costal cities or inland cities. This is not all that different from the Realms examples I picked out off the top of my head. A few coastal or inland cities dominate, while many of the smaller coastal cities are glorified fishing towns and rest stops until a ship reaches a major port. There are many more examples that coincide with your views. I believe there is less contrary to your views than the map makes it appear. For an area the size of the Sea of Fallen Stars there might have been that many good sized settlements. There would have been a lot more and larger cities inland. Rome is 20 miles from the Tyrrhenian Sea with Ostia acting as its port. They are two separate cities. Using Italy as an example, due to its relative coastline compared to inland area, far more settelments were inland. If you take away the smaller settlements there are still more inland cities than those on the coast. I'll only admit a decent understanding of history, you may be far more well verse in it than I, but if I recall correctly Rome was the exception to the rule in almost everything back in the day, so not the greatest example. I still don't recall any major emphasis on inland vs. coastal cities during any of my classes on history or my own readings. The focus sometimes seems to weight more heavily on port cities actually, but that's neither here or there depending on the historian. I understand that there are more settlements than the mapmakers want to put on the map. My problem is that most settlements that are important enough to place on a map and to write about in their books are on the coast. It does not fit with my understanding of history and economics. I am adjusting the maps in my Faerun. FR is a great campaign world. I would have liked a little more attention to detail. I am using the map downloaded from this website. Why I suggested you look up a good 2e map on Google, there are several good versions of the old atlas map on various sites. The 3e map, while sharp and pleasant to look at, is less than comprehensive. While the 2e map may not help much in the matter, the 3e map omits a good number of smaller coastal towns as well as a few inland towns, it might offer a different cartographers perspective on the setting. |
| MikeR771608-20-07, 10:42 AM | Google on "Interactive Ancient Mediterranean Project " for an enlightening look at city locations during ancient times. Ancient Greece, Aisa Minor and Upper Africa (Ancient Egypt) have a lot of coastal cities, many of which were major trading hubs. Western European and the British Isles are more heavily weighted towards inland cities, but "foreign trade" was slow to develop until Rome controlled all and even then, all roads led to Rome. |
| ShadezofDis08-20-07, 11:43 AM | 100% of the cities in Chondath. It is not that big of a deal. I am pulling most of the cities back from the coast. The map of Faerun leaves a lot of prime realistate open to wandering monsters. Chondathan cities are on the coast because of the Chondalwood and the residents of the Chondalwood (they've kicked Chondath's sorry butt several times). That's why Chondathan cities are on the coast (and because of the benefit of faster movement of goods). So it's not a terribly good idea to pull those cities back from the coast too much, otherwise you'll have to come up with a reason why they are able to survive so close to the Chondalwood (which is perfectly fine, just something to keep in mind :)) I've been running a Vilhon Reach campaign for a while now so I have it pretty present in my mind most of the time. ;) |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 03:36 PM | The difference is that you can normally defend yourself against land based enemies. Ships attacked by aquatic monsters are completly defenseless. Or at least I do have no idea how a ship would defend itself from attacks from below with ressource effective means. -You defend yourself from threats from below in the same manner that you defend yourself from threats from above. FR should relate enough to Earth so that we have something to relate with. -No, it shouldn't. Abeir-Toril isn't Earth, and Earth isn't Abeir-Toril. Faerun has many Earthlike characteristics: histories, technology, religion, trade. It is a fantasised version of renaissance Europe, Africa, and the Near East. -As I said in a post somewhere else recently, many of the core ideas behind many FR locales are inspired partly by concepts, people and places directly lifted from our actual world. For example, Steve Schend has stated that he gave Calimshan a Turkish influence. However, things that are lifted from the actual world are simply bases on which more and original ideas are built upon. So, in the end, though inspired by actual things that can be, or once could be found on Earth, to say that they are 1:1, or even 10:1 copies is ignoring the large amounts of work and time that so many designers have put into the setting. |
| Derren S.08-20-07, 03:53 PM | -You defend yourself from threats from below in the same manner that you defend yourself from threats from above. Interesting. Show me the bow which can shoot through the ships hull to hit the enemies directly under it. And if you do not find such a bow, any other cheap weapon which can do that feat will also do that. Most likely you won't find one. When a aquatic creature wants to sink a ship it goes directly under it and slowly destorys the hull. Unless the ship has some adventurers on board who can fight very well in water or can summon long lasting aquatic creatures the attacker is completly safe. \ / \ / <------- Ship __\_______/___ <--- Water Line \_____/ E <--------- Enemy |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 04:08 PM | -Nice illustration, there. Unless the ship has some adventurers on board who can fight very well in water or can summon long lasting aquatic creatures the attacker is completly safe. -Just like most landbound caravans hire guards (PCs!) to protect them from raiders and other road hazards, so too do waterbound ships hire guards (PCs!) to protect them from pirates, and other water hazards. |
| ShadezofDis08-20-07, 04:15 PM | -Just like most landbound caravans hire guards (PCs!) to protect them from raiders and other road hazards, so too do waterbound ships hire guards (PCs!) to protect them from pirates, and other water hazards. And yes, it is difficult, even with guards, to defend your ship from attack. However, the amount of creatures able to keep up with the ship, to damage the ship, ect is actually pretty small. Further, they have to travel some distance in order to reach shipping lanes, assuming they actually know where the shipping lanes are. The seas are pretty large, so it's actually quite difficult for sea creatures to track down ships to attack. |
| Derren S.08-20-07, 04:22 PM | Your game must have many PCs to protect all those ships. Defending a ship is much more difficult than defending a land carawan. In the latter case even 1st level warriors can contribute but to defend a ship you have to rely on adventurers. To fight such an enemy you need wather breathing, a very good swim skill and the correct weapons for underwater combat. You would also be well advised to have someeone who can cast make whole or at least mending on board to plug any leaks the attacker might punch into the hull. All this reliance of at least low-mid level adventurers (who even in the FR don't grow on trees) makes sea travel a lot less attractive as in the real world. |
| MarkusTay6308-20-07, 05:12 PM | You are assuming that Faerūnians would not have developed solutions to problems unique to a magical world with dangerous 'Sea Monsters'. For instance - An Alchemist in Waterdeep was having some crates loaded onto a ship for delivery to Baldur's Gate. A crate broke open, and several 'stink bombs', a minor concoction designed with childish pranks in mind, fell into the water. Within minutes, a dozen or so Merman (who live in the Harbor) appeared and demanded to know who attacked them. It seems sea races have extremely acute senses of smell, and the entire harbor had been instantly 'fouled' by just a couple of the items. Although the oily substance released nauseated the Merman (and several Sea Elves), further testing on other creatures proved the devices were highly effective against Sahuagin (who have a similar scent ability to sharks) and several other 'evil' types - it even caused a Sea Serpent to veer away from the testing region. Although all sea creatures avoid the tainted waters, the Sahuagin become partially asphixitaed, and are too busy coughing and choking to do much else (treat as 'stunned' for 1D10 rounds). The Alchemist has now gone into a full-time business of manufacturing these 'toys', and several others have copied the formula and are selling them along the Inner Sea as well. I just made that up, but its fairly easy to see how other defenses could also have been developed. Sea Magi could produce "Shock Globes" - small spheres enchanted with a Lightening Spell. When dropped overboard during an attack, it has a devastating effect on all nearby creatures in the water (1d6 Dam for everything waterborn within a radius of 5' x Lev of mage that cast the intitial spell). Not enough to kill most tough creatures, but it will act as a deterrent, especially since most creatures will assume you have more (Most captains will, of course, carry at least one of these). We on Earth never bothered to come up with stuff like this, because we don't have Sahuagin attacking our ships. Also - as both an amateur historian AND cartographer, I would say that the Sea of Fallen Stars equates VERY WELL to the Mediterranean during the Roman Empire, and even earlier during the times of Alexander. There are MANY large settlements, even cities, located inland that aren't shown on the (rather crummy) 3e map. I have been slowly adding back in many of the features and sites lost since 2e, and you can see the fruit of my labor in some of MY MAPS. (http://markustay.deviantart.com/) I use the old 2e map as a reference, which you can still get HERE. (http://www.angelfire.com/planet/torilmap/) If you look in some of the sourcebooks, like the wonderful UE or SS, you will see close-ups of the countries with better detail and more settlements. Also, try to remember, that 'inland' cities in FR are more likely targets of Orc Raids and other Goblinoids, so that puts them at MORE risk from monstrous assaults. On the coast, they only have to worry about human raiders showing up - and being robbed is prefferable to being eaten. ;) |
| Derren S.08-20-07, 05:36 PM | I just made that up, but its fairly easy to see how other defenses could also have been developed. Yes, you made it up. Thats the point. Without houserules the ships would not be safe. Sea Magi could produce "Shock Globes" - small spheres enchanted with a Lightening Spell. When dropped overboard during an attack, it has a devastating effect on all nearby creatures in the water (1d6 Dam for everything waterborn within a radius of 5' x Lev of mage that cast the intitial spell). Not enough to kill most tough creatures, but it will act as a deterrent, especially since most creatures will assume you have more (Most captains will, of course, carry at least one of these). And all creatures directly under the ship will be safe from that because ships are a bit wider than 5 ft. And unless those globes can be made to detonate at a specific depth they would be nearly useless. Also, try to remember, that 'inland' cities in FR are more likely targets of Orc Raids and other Goblinoids, so that puts them at MORE risk from monstrous assaults. On the coast, they only have to worry about human raiders showing up - and being robbed is prefferable to being eaten. ;) Costal cities have to deal with Sahuagin and other evil/neutral sea dwellers attacks which, unlike orc attacks are nearly undetectable untill they hit the shore (or rather the habour). |
| rjfras08-20-07, 06:07 PM | Why is it that most cities in Faerun are on the coast? Just look at the United States and how many of the major cities are either A) on the coast B) on a river that connects to the oceans C) on a lake that connects to the oceans via a canal/riverway... Then you can also look at the number that are on a river or lake that don't connect to the ocean but still use the water for drinking, power, food, trade to other cities along that same river/lake... the same things the ones that have access to a sea or ocean use it for on Earth and in the Realms... It seems you asked for an opinion even though all you are doing is rejecting everyone's opinion and already stated that you are changing your Realms to the way you want, so why ask? |
| Derren S.08-20-07, 06:36 PM | The US is probably one of the worst real life examples you could have used. That the big eastern cities are at the cost is because of the original colonies. America was colonized from across the sea so it makes no sense to build those cities not on the coast. And when the western cities were founded the technology was far more advanced than what the FR has now. When you want to use a real life example use old europe around the 14th century. |
| MarkusTay6308-20-07, 07:19 PM | Shockglobes detonate precisely 8 seconds after becoming wet. :P I have couple extra bucks in my wallet.... would you like us all to chip-in and buy you an imagination? Seriously, whats your point - that a fantasy world isn't real? :confused: |
| Dark Wizard08-20-07, 10:29 PM | Granted defending a ship against underwater attack is not as simple as meeting the enemy head on, the people of the Realms or any D&D world (since the same problem the Realms faces every other D&D setting with oceans faces as well) will adapt. There are a number of ways to counter underwater attack. The simplest is to maintain a dedicated band of marines or maybe we should call them 'submariners,' warriors adept at fighting underwater. Any number of the crew could be specially trained to face underwater challenges. Feats like Endurance and Expert Swimmer in Stormwrack helps turn even a regular human into a mildly proficient underwater combatant. Hiring mercenaries and sailors specially adapted for aquatic life (water genasi, sea elves - some with the landwalker feat so they can coexist with the surface crew, even air genasi) also provides a ship with the necessary troops needed to face underwater threats. The Breath link feat allows an aquatic elf or a water genasi to bring along a regular crew member for a limited time with him, even if they have to fight within 5 feet. Coupled with aquatic shot it could set up a good pair of underwater archers to keep threats at bay. There is the possibility of more exotic races hired as defenders if the ship has wealthier and more connected patrons. A ship can also maintain a ready set of trained animals or monsters who follow along. Regular training could probably pull it off, we've gotten dolphins to do similar things. Enforce the training with a few low level spells that allow communication with the animals or beasts, which can form a very cohesive fighting force. On to magical methods. First, a few low level spells (modified minor wards) can be cast on the hulls to warn of tampering. There are alchemical items that Markus mentioned which allow even non-casters to contribute. Lightning, acid, and cold spells have different properties underwater. Most are probably weakened but dispersed into an area, so the need for exact aim is lessened and it discourages swarm tactics. Explosions underwater are just as unpleasant as on the surface if not more so. Once a few spells are dropped into the water to soften up the enemy, the above mentioned submariners can jump into the water to clean up. These can be augmented by summoned monsters. A few spells in Stormwrack deal with underwater targets: 'Pressure Sphere' is pretty simple direct damage, 'Sink' would really hamper even a native aquatic monster, 'Swim' and 'Water Breathing' puts land dwellers on even water, 'Water to Acid' presents a major obstacle, 'Airy Water' and 'Transformation of the Deep' negates the major advantages an aquatic monster has against any of the surface crew since now a large number of the crew can fight in the water unhindered. Of course at higher levels the ship could just be hidden or disguised with some illusion spells. Then you factor in items that put the defenders an even footing with underwater monsters. Fancier ships would have wards, glyphs, runes and traps embedded into the hull. Try to drill a hole into the bottom and you could find yourself electrocuted, blasted with ice, or the water around you turned to acid. There are just a great variety of ways to defend against underwater attackers. Some of them require a decent level of magic, but many are mundane methods or based on low level spells. One might wonder if ship travel is worth it hiring all this extra help. However, remember that all of these people can serve other purposes on the ship as regular crew. All the marines can toss a few ranks into profession (sailor) and do just find as regular crew. The ships mage or cleric can provide basic navigational support, mending spells for fixing damage after attacks or after a storm, some can even help speed up the journey with wind and water magic. This expertise likely doesn't come cheap, but the rewards are much greater capacity, speed, and range than over land travel. Likewise, city harbors are probably warded by warning systems. I recall Waterdeep keeps in contact with the mermen living near the harbor for mutual defense and information sharing. Other cities can form similar arrangements with numerous other races. |
| Thinblade08-20-07, 10:44 PM | Markus - it's a nice idea, but it won't work. It's a well known fact that not only does Derren not have an imagination, but he gets the stupidest ideas into his head and then resolutely refuses to let them go, generally around the theme that the world must be exactly what is in the books and nothing that isn't in a book could possibly be in the world. Just leave well enough alone and be glad he's not in your game. |
| MerrikCale08-20-07, 11:00 PM | I have couple extra bucks in my wallet.... would you like us all to chip-in and buy you an imagination? I could use a sex drive:D |
| MerrikCale08-20-07, 11:02 PM | The US is probably one of the worst real life examples you could have used. That the big eastern cities are at the cost is because of the original colonies. America was colonized from across the sea so it makes no sense to build those cities not on the coast. And when the western cities were founded the technology was far more advanced than what the FR has now. When you want to use a real life example use old europe around the 14th century. and most european cities are on a river or ocean |
| Aldareth08-21-07, 02:37 AM | and most european cities are on a river or ocean There are no european cities on a river or ocean :incog: |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 02:52 AM | I could use a sex drive:DI suppose you install that next to your Hard drive. ;) |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 04:23 AM | Markus - it's a nice idea, but it won't work. It's a well known fact that not only does Derren not have an imagination, but he gets the stupidest ideas into his head and then resolutely refuses to let them go, generally around the theme that the world must be exactly what is in the books and nothing that isn't in a book could possibly be in the world. Just leave well enough alone and be glad he's not in your game. And so the flamers arrive. And you are mistaken unlike you I have a lot imagination, enough to be able to extrapolate what a plethora of sea monsters would mean to the culture of the realms. And I do not accept someones "inventions" (houserules) as explanation why something works in raw. In his campaign Markus can freely use those globes but when talking about the RAW FR he should please stick to the published items. Dark Wizard has posted many interesting (and rule legal) tactics how to protect a ship and they would work. So with enough effort/ressources it is possible to make ships relativly secure. But how would this affect the importance of shipping lanes in the realms? When travelling the sea is so much more dangerous than in the real world and the sea itself not being a natural obstacle for enemy armies and actually conceales the enemies movements nearly perfectly why would most cities be build on shores instead of being build in land with a well mantained land connection to a habour town? |
| Aldareth08-21-07, 06:10 AM | When travelling the sea is so much more dangerous than in the real world and the sea itself not being a natural obstacle for enemy armies and actually conceales the enemies movements nearly perfectly why would most cities be build on shores instead of being build in land with a well mantained land connection to a habour town? simple answer: because its worth the risk - like in the real world... |
| Fabius Maximus08-21-07, 07:41 AM | When travelling the sea is so much more dangerous than in the real world and the sea itself not being a natural obstacle for enemy armies and actually conceales the enemies movements nearly perfectly why would most cities be build on shores instead of being build in land with a well mantained land connection to a habour town? Because it's easier on your resources? And seriously: How often does a naval invasion happen to a city sitting on the seacoast? As Aldareth said: It's worth the risk. And look at it this way: If there is an attack, a destroyed harbour is as dangerous to the city's survival as if the city itself would have been invaded. |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 08:25 AM | Well I don't think that the worth was so great at the time of the city founding compared to the risk. Imo it would have been much more likely that most cities were founded on a defensible position (not only more defensible against amphibious monsters but also against land monsters) inland and only later when the naval "techology" developed enough to make mass travel by sea secure expanded to have a settelite port city. |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 11:31 AM | While there are a large number of sea creatures in the Realms they aren't even a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of area the seas take up. In addition to that, the sea creatures EAT EACH OTHER. They don't live in a vacuum and most have better things to do than sink a couple of ships that may not have anything of value to them. While it is difficult to defend a ship from underwater attack there have been MANY suggestions that work under RAW, Craft: Alchemy, Stink globe, maybe not the same effect as Markus said but it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Craft: Alchemy skill has more uses than making tanglefoot bags. Further, you're lack of books does not mean that this subject hasn't been handled in various older books that have not been converted into 3E. Next, sea trade is BY FAR more profitable than land trade. Even if you lose a ship every few months (because there just aren't enough sea creatures who have the desire to attack ships, have the ability to attack ships and happen to run across a ship, to make more than a minimal impact) you're still pulling in a lot more money than land caravans will (which, by the by, get attacked more often than ships). This excess of money allows ship owners to hire better protection, come up with solutions to "hulling" (I don't know if wooden ships would be able to be double hulled, but there are other things that could be done). If you want defense on the cheap then you can arm guys with harpoons and tridents, tie ropes to them and have them jump over the side and engage in battle. Not the best of tactics but it's VERY cheap. |
| MarkHall08-21-07, 11:33 AM | A few things to keep in mind, regarding the difficulty of defending sea ports from sea monsters... First of all, it's a big ocean. While sea serpents would flock to an obvious food source like a port, ports are able to defend themselves; most will have amenities like wizards and priests of Umberlee and Valkur to reduce predation. Eventually, they will seek elsewhere. Second of all, it's a big ocean. The chances of any given ship being attacked on any given voyage is pretty small, especially since sea monsters have other things to occupy their time... like eating fish and other things that are less work than a ship for "sea monsters", and fighting aquatic elves and other such water creatures. Third, there are a lot of options for a sea-going ship to defend itself. Water genasi and (some) half-sea-elves can both breathe water, and are attracted to the sea... work as mariners is pretty natural for them. You think a ship's captain is going to pay a bit more for a sailor who can breathe water and defend the ship underwater? A smart ship captain will also build up good relationships with the sea elves, mermen, tritons, etc., and try to attract priests of Umberlee, Istishia, or Valkur to travel on their ships; heck, many priests of Valkur own ships, and Valkur has an order dedicated to hunting out dangerous creatures, the Marines of the Seven Seas. This doesn't include things like wizards. |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 12:17 PM | Against non intelligent creatures the big ocean is a "defense", but smart creatures will find out soon where the shipping lanes are. Ships don't tend to sail randomly across teh ocean, but rather follow more or less the same lanes. And it is likely that a sea creature decides that it is much easier to sink a ship and eat the sailors than to hunt for its food. Also ships tend to have "treasure" or at least useable cargo on board. Just imagine that the romans, carthagans, or later, the hanse already had to deal with submarines which randomly attack ships. Do you think that sea travel would have had the same value than in the "real" real world? |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 12:29 PM | Against non intelligent creatures the big ocean is a "defense", but smart creatures will find out soon where the shipping lanes are. Ships don't tend to sail randomly across teh ocean, but rather follow more or less the same lanes. And it is likely that a sea creature decides that it is much easier to sink a ship and eat the sailors than to hunt for its food. Also ships tend to have "treasure" or at least useable cargo on board. Just imagine that the romans, carthagans, or later, the hanse already had to deal with submarines which randomly attack ships. Do you think that sea travel would have had the same value than in the "real" real world? Nevermind, your opinion differs, lets just leave it at that. This is just like the whole "resurrection debate" we had a few months ago, you see the realms differently than most of the posters who respond to what you see. That's fine. Personally, I disagree with your premise and I have no desire to change your mind and I can't imagine that you'll change my mind. |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 12:52 PM | Its not really the opinion but the point of view. Most people say "The realms has many costal cities and sea travel, so it must work despite the aquatic monsters". I say "The realms has many aquatic monsters so the abundance of sea travel and costal cities does not make sense especially as there is nothing to fight aquatic attackers effectivly". |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 12:57 PM | I suppose you install that next to your Hard drive. ;) :rimshot: Against non intelligent creatures the big ocean is a "defense", but smart creatures will find out soon where the shipping lanes are. -These intelligent underwater creatures tend to have other issues to deal with, other than constantly raiding shipping lines. You forget that, undersea, there are entire other nations that exist, and often fight against these creatures. Why don't Merrow constantly hang around and raid ocean-going vessels? Gee, with all of those Aquatic Elves, Tritons, Mermen, and so on chasing you, it's hard to stay in one place for a prolonged period of time. What, Mr. Merrow? You found a good place to settle down? Well, don't get enthralled by that Kraken over there. Oops...Too late. Well, you tried... Do you think that sea travel would have had the same value than in the "real" real world? -Yes, because no matter what the threat, sea travel would have still been more profitable- especially in an age where sea travel and land travel were the only two viable options. Sea travel decreases the amount of time transportation takes, and increases the total capacity that one can take with them, as well as back. Presuming that said shippers spend money and resources on ways to counter these "submarines", sea travel would still be more profitable. |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 01:01 PM | Its not really the opinion but the point of view. Most people say "The realms has many costal cities and sea travel, so it must work despite the aquatic monsters". I say "The realms has many aquatic monsters so the abundance of sea travel and costal cities does not make sense especially as there is nothing to fight aquatic attackers effectivly". Most people AREN'T saying that. Most people have offered up ideas on how and why costal cities and sea travel are viable in the Realms, not a "Well they are there so they must work." What I'm saying is; Sea travel and trade are much easier and much more profitable than overland trade and travel, despite the dangers involved. The dangers involved aren't really the monsters and intelligent sea races, the dangers really are storms with piracy coming in second. Both monsters and intelligent sea races have better things to do than attack a few ships every now and then. The amount of goods they would get that are usable in an underwater environment wouldn't be worth the trouble and they'd have no real way of knowing which ships might carry something they might want. Further, points of view entail opinions. Since there is no "proving" one case or another the whole debate falls into the realm of opinion. |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 01:18 PM | Have you ever looked at a medieval/ancient map? They draw little sea monsters everywhere in the waters! On the land parts that were 'unexplored', they would write "Here there be Monsters". People from the RW fiirmly believed in Sea Monsters, yet sailors still went to sea and even crossed oceans. Hell, they thought they were going to sail offf the edge of the world, and they STILL kept going. Fear does not stop humans from doing something, it just makes it more lucrative. ;) And BTW, Thay does have metal-hulled ships, and several races are experimenting with lining their hulls with 'sheet metal'. Thay is the first to do so regularly because there navy is parked above Aleaxtis, the nation of Sahuagin. Human Beings adapt to circumstances BETTER then any other race (thats why we get a free Feat) - there are even swampfolk (the Marsh Drovers) who have TAMED Catoblepas that they use as cattle. People adapt, get over it. One last thing - have YOU ever tried smacking a hole in a ship from underneath? Even a rowboat? Its not going to work - you would need a drill (primitive version, not electric), and Monster-types do not have technology for that. Even a Great White Shark couldn't pound a hole in a Wooden Sailing Ship. And if you want to know how to fight off a Kraken, just watch PotC (but use Smokepowder instead). |
| rjfras08-21-07, 01:19 PM | have you read any of the Realms materials on sea travel? Lands of Intrigue has information on pirates and how many ships they attack out of that area heading to Waterdeep, Maztica, Zahkura and other ports around the Shining and Great seas.... Have you read any of Ed Greenwood's replies to questions on Candlekeep? I suppose he doesn't know what he's talking about either when it comes to the realms.... How about the Al-Qadim stuff? The Sea's Children are a group of sea elementalists who roam the coasts aboard ships of all sorts, earning their keep by using their magic to perform vital functions aboard the ship and to converse with any hostile creatures that may acost the ship. There are other such kinds of societies/guilds that perform the same or similiar function in other areas... Or Pirates of the Fallen Stars accessory book? there are sections in there for upgrades to ships to help protect them, things like increased thickness of the hull or metal plating to protect the hull. Or the Stormwrack book? And you have to remember that most ships stayed close to land to one avoid alot of the monsters out in the deeper parts and two so they wouldn't get lost and three in case of bad weather they could beach or find a safe port if necessary... in the realms I think pirates are a bigger and more constant concern then monster attacks... Another thing is just because a dot on the map is on the coast does not mean the city is always right on the water's edge. Take Hillsfar, the map shows it right smack dab on the coast with part of the circle looking like it's in the water. Hillsfar is close to the water but it is actually a walled city perched at the top of a rocky bluff overlooking the shore. A small village at the base of the bluff is known as the docks and handles the naval traffic and such. While the docks are not well defended, there is rarely anything of value here, as in the case of a raid the people withdraw into the well defended walled city. Other places protect their ports with force, like Zhentil Keep, the harbor is guarded by the navy as well as ballistae and catapults set up on the two bridges that flank the harbor. Mulmaster has a series of canals and harbor areas. The canals can be individually blocked by harbor chains and many are guarded by ballistae in addition to their navy. Not all the ports on the coasts are large cities either.. Take Ilipur and Pros on the The Dragonmere, they are small ports that serve as the loading and unloading points for Eversult which is inland a good distance... |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 01:23 PM | -Yes, because no matter what the threat, sea travel would have still been more profitable- especially in an age where sea travel and land travel were the only two viable options. And teleportation. With that kind of magic required to make a ship secure you can simply teleport your good th were you want them. Why build a ship, hire crew including expensive wather breathing mariners and alchemical underwater weapons to ship some goods to another costal city while still being at risk to be sunken by pirates, sea monsters, evil aquatic creatures or by the weather when you can simply pay for a 9th level spell (much cheaper than a ship) to teleport as much goods as you can fit in 2 hours through a 5ft. wide circle to any destination on Faerun without any risk? and they'd have no real way of knowing which ships might carry something they might want. Pirates also didn't knew this, yet this didn't stop them from attacking other ships. |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 01:26 PM | And teleportation. With that kind of magic required to make a ship secure you can simply teleport your good th were you want them. You could even pay someone to set up a teleportation circle and it would still be cheaper than building a ship. There are a lot more trees than there are mages who can teleport. There is A TON more room on a ship than mages can teleport. Ships don't have personalities (depending on who you talk to anyhow), lives of their own, families, friends, enemies, ect ect ect You can't rely upon a mage the way you can upon a ship and you can't replace a mage as easily as you can replace a few sailors or a ship. Again, you see the world differently, lets just leave it at that. |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 01:41 PM | High level mages are not really rare in the realms. And you seem to have the impression that all high level magic users are somehow extremly chaotic and undependable. The same wizards who craft the high level equipment are also the ones who can be comissioned to, once a month, cast teleportation circle to get all your good to wherever you want it to go. Or you simply buy some scrolls of teleportation circle and let your local mage cast it. Or you get together with other merchants of your area and comission teh mage to make the teleportation circle permanent. Then you only need the wizard one time. So much about ships being more reliable. |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 01:46 PM | Nevermind, I'm done with you Derren. We disagree, that's it, that's all. |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 02:03 PM | Ok, running with the Teleportation Circle idea. First off, it says nothing about transporting items, but we'll overlook that for the moment. Now, best case scenario is you get a 5 ft radius circle that you can teleport. This will cost you at least 2530 (1530 for a 9th level spell cast by a 17th level caster, plus 1000 for material component) per teleport and you get a 5 ft radius circle. If you buy a Caravel, it'll cost you 10,000 gp (that's 4 castings of teleportation circle) and you can carry 120 tons of cargo. You would need a bunch of teleportation circle castings in order to do that. A whole bunch. And then you'd need to repeat that, once you've bought the boat the boat is yours. Ok, I made some calculations. But first, unless everyone who gets teleported arrives at his destination naked a teleportation circle is able to teleport objects. Assuming that the circle is casted by a 17th level caster and that you use enough men so that every 12 seconds someone carries something through the circle and assuming that such worker have 12 strength (dockworkers are normally rather strong people) and carries 100 lb cargo you can get 42,5 tons through the circle. 120 Tons can be done in 2,8 castings of the circle (by the way, does the 120 ton cargo space also include space for supplies or is it real free space?). Depending on the wages you have to pay the sailors and mariners and the money needed to repair and reequip the ship a caravel is indeed cheaper than a repeated casting of teleportation circle. But on the other hand, for the price of about 2, maybe 3 ships you can get a permanent teleportation circle and thus a unlimited instant teleportation for all the goods you ever want to transport. And you can also get some money back by letting other use the circle for a fee. |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 02:17 PM | There are several 'evil' merchant consortiums that would never allow someone to get that type of power over trade, and some of the 'good' ones may want to sabotage you as well. Its a good idea, and I have brought up similar ideas over at CK, buy the 'powers' in the Realms would not allow any one person to control trade that way. It would only be a matter of time before your 'teleport pad' would be a smoking crater. If you think is was that easy, wouldn't the Thayan Enclaves ALL have them? |
| MarkHall08-21-07, 02:17 PM | Against non intelligent creatures the big ocean is a "defense", but smart creatures will find out soon where the shipping lanes are. Ships don't tend to sail randomly across teh ocean, but rather follow more or less the same lanes. And it is likely that a sea creature decides that it is much easier to sink a ship and eat the sailors than to hunt for its food. Also ships tend to have "treasure" or at least useable cargo on board. Just imagine that the romans, carthagans, or later, the hanse already had to deal with submarines which randomly attack ships. Do you think that sea travel would have had the same value than in the "real" real world? You're neglecting that the Romans, etc. lacked people who can go underwater for an indefinite period of time and fight there. |
| Derren S.08-21-07, 02:24 PM | You're neglecting that the Romans, etc. lacked people who can go underwater for an indefinite period of time and fight there. Those people aren't really common in the FR either (or at least cheap). There are several 'evil' merchant consortiums that would never allow someone to get that type of power over trade, and some of the 'good' ones may want to sabotage you as well. Thats a question similiar to the chicken and the egg. When you can simply create a permanent teleportation circle to link two major hubs indefinitely, would powerfull merchant consortiums even exist? Or maybe the consortium itself would create a such a circle and request a fee for every person who steps through. |
| BGracian08-21-07, 02:42 PM | I love the Forgotten Realms. The designers have put in a lot of exceptional work. My issue with coastal cities is there number compared to inland cities. Sure there could easily be that many cities on the coast but there would be even more inland. The time period I am comparing this to is late middle ages to renaissance. Technology in Faerun -ships, goods, weapons, clothes etc... is renaissancesque. Where are the Milans, Florences, Romes, Veronas, Bolognas. The Vilhon Reach is in a great place for trade, there would be cities on the coast to capitalize on this fact. There would also be inland cities because they are safer and better industry centers. Florence is landlocked but it made most of its money through trade. It took wool from England and made fine cloth to sell to the rest of Europe and Near East for one example. Much trade was done by sea but there was also a lot done via roads and navigatable rivers. It was not one or the other exclusively. Coastal cities have all the problems of inland cities plus more; coastal disasters and they can be, and often were, attacked without much notice. An inland city on a hill has days or more notice when an army is approching. Inland cities also do not have a huge open area inviting the enemy in a la the port. If it is on the map as a port city then it is on the coast, even if the main city is a mile or two away. Which still can be attacked without much notice and subject to hurricanes, tsunami, and other unpleasant costal weather/events. Throughout history more people have lived inland. I use Italy as an example based on its relative coastline to its inland area. Yes, there are many coastal cities. My point is: Where are the inland cities? Real cities, not towns. Thanks for the map MarcusTay63. |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 04:00 PM | Ok, I made some calculations. But first, unless everyone who gets teleported arrives at his destination naked a teleportation circle is able to teleport objects. I had misread Teleportation circle, that was my problem in my response about your Teleportation circle theory. I was assuming that it'd be a Teleport of everything in the circle and didn't read that it had a duration and thus acted more as a portal than as a Teleport. Regardless of that, we'll just have to agree to disagree, feel free to continue on with other posters though (not that you need my blessing to do so). |
| GothicDan08-21-07, 04:18 PM | Once you find geographical regions that match exactly those of various aspects of Faerun, you can compare such regions with those in real life. And yes, nothing in D&D makes sense unless you make up reasons for it doing so. Why does it make sense that moving your arms and mumbling makes fireballs? You have to just accept that it does and make up explanations in your head. |
| BGracian08-21-07, 05:11 PM | GothicDan that is such a copout. O.K. since there is magic anything goes? The creators of the realms have put some effort into making it as real as a fantasy world can be. Look at the trade routes and resources map. I am not comparing exactly one place and one time period, although Chondath does have an uncanny resemblance to Renaissance Italy. I am using Italy as an example based on geography (peninsular like much of the land around the Sea of Fallen Stars). What I have said about inland cities is true for most everywhere on Earth. It just makes sense that the bigger population centers are inland regardless if you can move your arms around to make things happen. The way that the map looks humans are a seafaring race like the elves are forestdweling and dwarves are mountainious. I guess then it would be the the gnomes and halflings that live in the spaces inbetween;) The 2e map does do a better job at showing inland cities. I wish they would have kept it that way. Why wouldn't there be cities inland? Is trade the only thing that keeps the realms going? If so where does all the tradegoods come from? Most of the resources are inland. |
| GothicDan08-21-07, 05:17 PM | It's not a copout. I'm a physicist (almost). I know that even if systems look the same on the surface there can be other factors that we don't see that can cause radically different changes to occur between the two. So it's much easier for me to come up with explanations for such things that "make no sense," as well as a bit of creativity. I've always placed major centers of populations in or around waterways or other geographical areas that would make trade easier, and will continue to do so, and I think it's perfectly logical. :) |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 05:41 PM | I would have to agree with the point that we NEED more inland cities. There have been a great deal of them in the past, but 95% of them were overun and destroyed by Orc Hordes (or similar goblinoids). I have yet to read anything about a coastal city being destroyed by a Horde (except, perhaps, Luskan), so maybe that is why there are more of them - they last longer. Anyhow, last night I was re-doing the Shar region (putting back Shaareach), and I notice that Delzimmer was at a crossroads of FOUR different cultures, and yet was only a minor town! That makes NO SENSE what-so-ever, and I upgraded it to a city now. Sometimes common sense overides canon, so I suppose I would agree with some of what the 'naysayers' are saying about inland cities. Another reason for most of my Map Projects is to add back in all of the cities lost between additions - 3e does look a wee-bit 'coast heavy'. Also note that many settlements on the world map only appear as towns, yet are definately cities on the smaller sourcebook maps - see the Thay one as an example. In fact, two of their inland cities qualify as Metropolises! So don't go and judge a setting by it's Map - there is a lot more to it then that. :cool: Thanks for the map MarcusTay63.Don't thank me, Thank George Krashos - it was by special request of his. Hopefully, if he ever gets around to answering the thread at CK, there will be several new locations, as well as a few corrections. I realize, of course, that he is immensly busy with all of the 'new' stuff going on, so my timing was a bit off. ;) |
| BGracian08-21-07, 05:45 PM | You're not taking into account of resources. Cities develop where there are resources. Trade follows. Then some cities develope to capitalize on that trade (not always on a coast or navigatable river). Inland cities are often on waterways since rivers are important for health as well as industry and trade. I hope that the rivers on the map are not the only rivers in Faerun, it would be a very dry place. As a physicist you should know that if you use a limited range of information when studing a system your results will be skewed. Trade is important but it is not the only reason that cities exist. |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 06:03 PM | I hope that the rivers on the map are not the only rivers in Faerun, it would be a very dry place.In answer to this, I quote myself - Another reason for most of my Map Projects is to add back in all of the cities lost between additions - 3e does look a wee-bit 'coast heavy'. Also note that many settlements on the world map only appear as towns, yet are definately cities on the smaller sourcebook maps - see the Thay one as an example. In fact, two of their inland cities qualify as Metropolises!The same goes for smaller waterways and other details, such as mountain passes. Note on my Impiltur Map that there are several rivers that do not appear on the World Map, as well as the MAJOR PASS through the mountains into the Vast - all of which are canon from local maps. I reiterate - the World Map cannot possibly show every feature - just the most important ones. |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 07:19 PM | The 2e map does do a better job at showing inland cities. I wish they would have kept it that way. Why wouldn't there be cities inland? Is trade the only thing that keeps the realms going? If so where does all the tradegoods come from? Most of the resources are inland. Ummm. . . 2E maps are still valid when not contradicted by 3E maps (such as the size of Turmish), thus, all those 2E inland cities are still there, as are the rivers. I was going to pull out some of my older edition books to start listing the inland cities, but apparently you already know about them, they haven't disappeared. (Well, except for Tilverton) |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 08:02 PM | I was going to pull out some of my older edition books to start listing the inland cities, but apparently you already know about them, they haven't disappeared. (Well, except for Tilverton)Tilverton is back... They have already started rebuilding it a couple miles away from the ruins, so 4e DEFINATELY will have brand-new Tilverton. ;) |
| MerrikCale08-21-07, 09:28 PM | I would have to agree with the point that we NEED more inland cities. no we don't |
| ShadezofDis08-21-07, 11:48 PM | Tilverton is back... They have already started rebuilding it a couple miles away from the ruins, so 4e DEFINATELY will have brand-new Tilverton. ;) Until the ruin. . . ooooooohhhhhh, I wonder if they're going to do a "brand new Myth Drannor" with the ruins of Tilverton. I wouldn't be surprised in the least but I don't like it because; I think the Shades are stupid. If they'd been introduced in some sort of reasonable way then that'd have been cool but the Malaugrym more than filled the "alternate dimension magic user" niche so just throwing the city of shades at us was . . . well, stupid. and The reclamation of Myth Drannor really should create a wonderous elven magic renaissance, IMO. But. . . it could be sorta nifty if they did that sorta jam. |
| Lord Karsus08-22-07, 12:41 AM | ...but the Malaugrym more than filled the "alternate dimension magic user" niche... -So, I'll take it you don't fully appreciate the Nilshai? ;) |
| ShadezofDis08-22-07, 12:49 AM | -So, I'll take it you don't fully appreciate the Nilshai? ;) I've ignored the Star Elves. :P heh They sound like they could be nifty though, I like the Ethereal Plane and anything that makes it a Plane rather than a convenient place to "jaunt" to. :D Granted, I'm 99% ignorant about them, other than the "alternate dimension magic users" bit. ;) |
| Calmar08-22-07, 05:58 AM | Just do it like Dwarves do: Give a damn about sea trade or caravanning, find yourself a fine mountain and dig in. ;) |
| Fabius Maximus08-22-07, 09:10 AM | Just do it like Dwarves do: Give a damn about sea trade or caravanning, find yourself a fine mountain and dig in. ;) You forget that the dwarves of Delzoun used to sail the Inner Sea from Ascore. ;) |
| MarkusTay6308-22-07, 10:53 PM | You forget that the dwarves of Delzoun used to sail the Inner Sea from Ascore. ;)In STONE ships, no less! :eek: |
| Calmar08-23-07, 04:18 AM | Really?? What a goblin pie! :D I'd make dwarves with viking style longships made of steel or mithral. That would be cool (I think). :) |
| MarkusTay6308-23-07, 04:37 PM | Yeah, I forget exactly where I read that, but I believe there is at least one 'relic' from those days laying around somewhere (probably in the desert). Hey, don't dis stone - at least the Sahuagin won't be pokin' any holes in them any time soon, and I'd just loved to see what a Sea Monster's dental work looks like after taking a chomp of one. :D |