Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cadrio 06-21-07, 11:35 PM	I am starting a chosen campaign with my pcs, and their ultimate goal is to kill Mystra. I am looking for any insight or possible ways to sucessfully kill her. I also cant find any info on the Dweomerheart, can anyone help me...?
souldnce9 06-22-07, 02:01 AM	They should sell their souls to Cyric or Shar! Though that probably still wont assist in such a futile campaign! :looloo:
Meldread 06-22-07, 02:30 AM	A few things: 1. Chosen of which deity? 2. What is the story behind the campaign? 3. What type of characters? Answer: The only way to destroy Mystra is to destroy the Weave, as they are the same. This is possible to do. Do not focus on assaulting and killing Mystra herself but rather think of a way to destroy the Weave. For this to work you will either need to be Psions or Shadow Weave users. Note: Destroying the Weave will slowly result in the death of all things on Toril, and the ultimate victory of Shar. Therefore the end of all life.
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 08:45 AM	Note: Destroying the Weave will slowly result in the death of all things on Toril, and the ultimate victory of Shar. Therefore the end of all life. Nah. Just lots of magical turmoil until it either stablizes without the Weave, or another divinity (Azuth?) steps in. Magic will still exist. The Weave isn't essential to continued existence. It'd be a good way of introducing a different spellcasting system (spellpoints?), since the current 0-9th slots are how magic works under the Weave. I am starting a chosen campaign with my pcs, and their ultimate goal is to kill Mystra. I am looking for any insight or possible ways to sucessfully kill her. I also cant find any info on the Dweomerheart, can anyone help me...? An epic spell that creates a Toril sized anti-magic field keyed to affect only the Weave. Good luck:embarrass And people thought I was crazy:eek:
XHereticX 06-22-07, 08:56 AM	Cast Karsus's Avatar, more than once....:devil:
Alediran 06-22-07, 08:56 AM	Mystra, yeah. It's easier to replace Asmodeus with a Chaotic Good halfling than kill the Lady of Mysteries. Mystra is one of the most powerfull gods in her own right, plus the alliances she has with the mayor power players of Toril (The Elven Gods, the Dwarven Gods, most, if not all good aligned and many neutral deities). That's not even counting the power of her church (paladins, rangers, clerics, arcane spellcasters, etc) and the power of her chosen, who are very old and crafty. Unless your players have more power than Larloch himself they will have powerfull clashes with them. Not even the Zulkirs of Thay can feel at ease when somebody says "Summon the Simbul". But since you are the DM, if you want to make a living hell on the lives of your player's characters, you have very nice toys to screw them :D
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 08:58 AM	Cast Karsus's Avatar, more than once....:devil: Prolly wouldn't work. He'd have to research an epic version, which uhhh...Mystra would deny it's creation, if Ogma didn't deny the knowledge first.
XHereticX 06-22-07, 08:58 AM	Prolly wouldn't work. He'd have to research an epic version, which uhhh...Mystra would deny it's creation, if Ogma didn't deny the knowledge first. What is....the Shadow weave?:cool:
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 09:05 AM	What is....the Shadow weave?:cool: That's just a conduit to access magic. Mystra still has spell creation. She won't be able to control or sense any castings from the Shadow Weave, but she can still deny the creation of a new spell. I'd go psionics. An epic manifestation:D
Red_Wizard 06-22-07, 09:12 AM	That's just a conduit to access magic. Mystra still has spell creation. She won't be able to control or sense any castings from the Shadow Weave, but she can still deny the creation of a new spell. I'd go psionics. An epic manifestation:D She can block Psionics as easy as any other spell. Transparency means that she won't have to worry about either SW, or Psionics. As for killing her, well lets just say you'd have a better chance getting Ao to grant you spells. How many gods have tried before? Who has yet beaten her? Honestly, why ask here? It is for all puposes, nigh impossible, and your players are never going to learn anything to the contrary. There isn't some book at the local library entitled, "Killing Mystra, in 5 easy steps" You absolutely want to do it fine? Get really munkinly uber, and have at it. But there are no tactics anyone here can give you, with out metagaming.
Soltares 06-22-07, 09:25 AM	They've already killed off two of the all-powerful Weave-incarnate goddesses of magic, I imagine killing off a third one will have the same lack of world-ending consequences. The Weave will hiccough, some Wild / Dead Magic zones will appear, the latest system of epic magic (10th level spells, Elven High Magic, Ritual Circle Dancing Whatever) will be replaced by some equally nonsensical system, Silverfire will upgrade to Goldenfire (or Platinumfire, or Mithralfire, or Unbreakiumfire) and life will go on, with 90% of the folk in the Realms blissfully unaware of the change in management. Just plan for it by preparing to tweak the end of the name for her replacement. We've had Mystryl, Mystra and Mystra 2.0. That leaves Mystri, Mystro, Mystrella and Mystronomus the Magnificent. The only requirement seems to be that whoever the new god(dess) of magic is, they have to be sexually attracted to Elminster, who tends to outlive them anyway.
Zandilar 06-22-07, 09:41 AM	Heya, They've already killed off two of the all-powerful Weave-incarnate goddesses of magic, I imagine killing off a third one will have the same lack of world-ending consequences. The Weave will hiccough, some Wild / Dead Magic zones will appear, the latest system of epic magic (10th level spells, Elven High Magic, Ritual Circle Dancing Whatever) will be replaced by some equally nonsensical system, Silverfire will upgrade to Goldenfire (or Platinumfire, or Mithralfire, or Unbreakiumfire) and life will go on, with 90% of the folk in the Realms blissfully unaware of the change in management. I feel I should add that the chances are, anyone succeeding in killing Mystra is going to be in for a nasty surprise. I sincerely doubt Ao would grant Mystra's power to the person who defeated her. In all likelihood, all that will result is a new incarnation of Mystra (you don't honestly think that Mystra doesn't have contingency plans in place anyway, do you OP?). On the other hand, if Ao does nothing - then yes, the world will eventually end. Also I should point out that when the Weave goes, so does the Shadow Weave (when the Arteries go, the Veins stop working too; if you burn the threads, the holes in the tapestry are meaningless; if you snuff out the light there are no further shadows, etc etc). We've had Mystryl, Mystra and Mystra 2.0. That leaves Mystri, Mystro, Mystrella and Mystronomus the Magnificent. The only requirement seems to be that whoever the new god(dess) of magic is, they have to be sexually attracted to Elminster, who tends to outlive them anyway. So far the pattern for Mystra has been all female. There's a good reason for this... Mystryl had two Mommies*. :D ;) :P * In Australia we would say Mummies (unless you're my sister), but it kind of sounds wrong in a Dungeons and Dragons forum where a Mummy is an Egyptian style Zombie or Lich type undead critter...
Eccerion 06-22-07, 09:47 AM	Note that the two previous godesses of magic died under less then repeatable circumstances. Mystrul= Karsus tried to become a god, that didnt go to well and almost blew up the world, forceing Mystrul to sacrifice herself to repair the damage. Mystras made sure a spell like that will NEVER happen again. Mystra 1.0= Was only killed because the three stooges (Bane, Baal and Myrkul) went and stole the tablets of fate, AOs notebooks on what god has what job. Ao found out and naturally got a tadd miffed, and stripped ALL the gods of their powers and threw them down, some head first, onto Toril where they were going to stay until he got his tablets back. Only one who escaped that fate was Helm and hes still hearing about it from the others :P . When she was in mortal form Mystra 1.0 got caught and tortured and finally died when she was dumb enough to try and push her way past Helm to get back to the upper planes. God in mortal body with a fraction of her god powers VS god with full god powers = very short fight. Needless to say neither of those events are likely to repeat themselves, and the last thing anyone useing the weave would want is for someone to go mucking about with it, heck most of the red wizards actually use the weave and I dont think they would be to happy to hear someones out to F*** it up so they can stand against their own slaves and myriad enemies without so much as a flare spell to their name.
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 09:48 AM	She can block Psionics as easy as any other spell. Transparency means that she won't have to worry about either SW, or Psionics. No she can't. PGtF states it clearly. Psionics, while magical in nature, do not draw upon either weave, nor does either deity have power over them nor can either deity prevent the promulgation of psionic lore and ability. Psionics are not spells. They're a seperate portfolio outside of Mystra's Spells portfolio. Honestly, why ask here? It is for all puposes, nigh impossible, and your players are never going to learn anything to the contrary. There isn't some book at the local library entitled, "Killing Mystra, in 5 easy steps" Pretty much.
XHereticX 06-22-07, 10:03 AM	Hmm, you could attain divinity, kill Mystra, and seize her portfolios can't you?
Soltares 06-22-07, 10:09 AM	Note that the two previous godesses of magic died under less then repeatable circumstances. Both died, despite it being colossally unlikely, so it was apparently quite a repeatable circumstance, and it should be just as likely that something else could occur to gank off version 3.0, the way her predecessors were predecessed. I mean really, who could have predicted that the 'three stooges' would inspire Ao to have Helm kill Mystra? (Gosh, egg on Ao's face, Mystra had nothing to do with it and was even working on fixing things! Big omnipotent dummy-head.) I can't imagine a third Mystra death being any harder to swallow than the first two. At this point, it's pretty clear that the death of Miss-I-am-the-Weave doesn't destroy the universe, since it's happened twice before, and, hey, Toril's still a-spinnin.' I imagine the same would happen with any diety. Chauntea croaks? Someone else takes the job, just as someone else always took over the Weave whenever a goddess of magic bought the farm. I don't see Midnight as *more* of a goddess of magic than Mystryl or Mystra v1, so I don't see the Weave being anymore destroyed if she were to die than it was when they died. She's their equal, from what I've read, which means she's just as expendable as they turned out to be. I should point out that when the Weave goes, so does the Shadow Weave (when the Arteries go, the Veins stop working too; if you burn the threads, the holes in the tapestry are meaningless; if you snuff out the light there are no further shadows, etc etc). As I've stated, destroying Mystra v3 shouldn't destroy the Weave anymore than the deaths of the previous years models did. Interesting thought, if you snuff out the light, there is darkness. A whole lot of darkness. What if an interruption in the Weave *strengthened* the Shadow Weave? What if the Shadow Weave ended up 'flaring up' and taking up the slack, filling in all the spaces where the Weave once stood, and the entire world of Toril become one fueled solely by shadow weave magics? That would be a scary setting, more Midnight than Toril, where all magic comes from a dark and tainted source, with illusion and necromancy magic being the most common. The setting would be more swords and sorcery, in the vein of Conan, and less all-powerful mages running everything behind the scenes. Arcane magic would be severely hampered in attempts to call up energy, particularly light, and the priesthoods of the good gods would become more prevalent, if beleaguered, as they would be the only ones able to channel light into a world suddenly grown darker and more sinister... Imagine the Chosen, cut off from the source of their power. Some, like Alustriel, might choose to turn to Clerical power, others, like the Simbul, might grasp desperately at Shadow Weave magic, to 'fight shadow with shadow' against her Thayvian neighbors. At least one Chosen might become the new Halaster / Sammaster, broken by the fall from grace, and the Silence of Mystra, raving and dangerous, or worse, raving and *not* dangerous, an embarassment to all who knew them in their proud glory.
Red_Wizard 06-22-07, 10:15 AM	No she can't. PGtF states it clearly. Psionics, while magical in nature, do not draw upon either weave, nor does either deity have power over them nor can either deity prevent the promulgation of psionic lore and ability. Psionics are not spells. They're a seperate portfolio outside of Mystra's Spells portfolio. I wasn't saying they were part of her portfolio, but they are susceptible to things like Antimagic fields, and dispel magic. And last time I checked, she has both in abundance. ;)
captaincarot 06-22-07, 10:16 AM	I don't see Midnight as *more* of a goddess of magic than Mystryl or Mystra v1, so I don't see the Weave being anymore destroyed if she were to die than it was when they died. She's their equal, from what I've read, which means she's just as expendable as they turned out to be. possible but doesn't it say somewhere that sticking the whole thing backtogether after they die gets harder each time one of them croaks. eventually there will be so many frayed ends that the whole carpet will fall apart.
Meldread 06-22-07, 10:39 AM	We've had Mystryl, Mystra and Mystra 2.0. That leaves Mystri, Mystro, Mystrella and Mystronomus the Magnificent. The only requirement seems to be that whoever the new god(dess) of magic is, they have to be sexually attracted to Elminster, who tends to outlive them anyway. :rofl: That's true. It is a bit ridiculous that one of the most powerful, and arguably one of the most important, deities in the Realm's seems to be one of the most incompetent. I actually believe that, aside from this.... Mystra is one of the most powerfull gods in her own right, plus the alliances she has with the mayor power players of Toril (The Elven Gods, the Dwarven Gods, most, if not all good aligned and many neutral deities). That's not even counting the power of her church (paladins, rangers, clerics, arcane spellcasters, etc) and the power of her chosen, who are very old and crafty. Unless your players have more power than Larloch himself they will have powerfull clashes with them. Not even the Zulkirs of Thay can feel at ease when somebody says "Summon the Simbul". ...she is the most easiest deity that you could possibly wish to kill. Kill her Chosen then hop on over to another Plane and create an epic spell that would allow you to destroy the Weave. Hop back over, cast it... and that would be the end of it. In any event make your players roughly level 40 each and anything becomes possible.
Zevox 06-22-07, 10:53 AM	Mystra, yeah. It's easier to replace Asmodeus with a Chaotic Good halfling than kill the Lady of Mysteries. Quoted for truth. If you want to kill one of the two most powerful and important deities in Faerūn, you'd better be able to pull off something on the magnitude of Karsus' Avatar or the Time of Troubles, because those are what it took to kill her predecessors. The only requirement seems to be that whoever the new god(dess) of magic is, they have to be sexually attracted to Elminster, who tends to outlive them anyway. Um, Mystryl died before Elminster was born, and Midnight is not sexually attracted to him, as the novel Elminster's Daughter showed. The original Mystra was the only one who thought of him like that. Zevox
Red_Wizard 06-22-07, 10:53 AM	Um, perhaps some haven't looked into her first two deaths, but they were hardly easy demises. Mystryl SACRIFICED herself, to prevent all magic from ceasing to exist in the realms, due to an over eager mage striving to gain more power than he could possibly comprehend. The second Mystra died trying to break back into the divine court, challenging Helm in the process, and while she was still an avatar, he was fully divine, and thus she was beaten again. I would hardly call either of those two cases of her demise incompetence, or in any way belittling to her true abilities. :rolleyes:
Alediran 06-22-07, 10:55 AM	...she is the most easiest deity that you could possibly wish to kill. Kill her Chosen then hop on over to another Plane and create an epic spell that would allow you to destroy the Weave. Hop back over, cast it... and that would be the end of it. Mystra strips the foolish mortal of their access to the weave, stops the casting of that spell (she can do it) or sends an avatar/servant/chosen to kill the upstart dumba*** and no god can claim she is favouring one side because she was doing her duty to protect the Weave.
XHereticX 06-22-07, 11:01 AM	Mystra strips the foolish mortal of their access to the weave, stops the casting of that spell (she can do it) or sends an avatar/servant/chosen to kill the upstart dumba*** and no god can claim she is favouring one side because she was doing her duty to protect the Weave. That is if the stupid idiot gets past her High Priests, her Chosen, AND Larloch.;) Good luck man, good luck. I still say trying to beg Ao for divinity and then stealing Mystra's portfolios are your best bet. And how did you ninnies know Lord Asmodeus was a CG Halfling?
Alediran 06-22-07, 11:06 AM	And how did you ninnies know Lord Asmodeus was a CG Halfling? They saw him smell the flowers and eat 4 breakfasts with honey and milk.
XHereticX 06-22-07, 11:08 AM	They saw him smell the flowers and eat 4 breakfasts with honey and milk. Argh, I told him to keep that down, but nooo, he didn't listen to his psycotic undead chosen with an ungodly obsession with blowing people up with Hellfire:mad:
Alediran 06-22-07, 11:17 AM	The worst part was that Mephistopheles discovered him, when that happened he revealed to be a rock gnome and both started to sing (my ears almost exploded when I heard them, don't they know we elves have sensitive ears?).
Meldread 06-22-07, 11:41 AM	Mystra strips the foolish mortal of their access to the weave, stops the casting of that spell (she can do it) or sends an avatar/servant/chosen to kill the upstart dumba*** and no god can claim she is favouring one side because she was doing her duty to protect the Weave. That's why you use the Shadow Weave, silly. ;) And the whole "Mystra will just not let you cast the spell" bit doesn't really hold water. Let's keep in mind that Karsus took what... six months? To research and create Karsus' Avatar specifically to cast and STEAL Mystryl’s power. There have been other such examples, not to mention the fact that I suggested researching it and creating it on another plane entirely to avoid her portfolio senses. Which would mean that when you return the spell is already created, and her only hope of stopping it is to block it from being cast something technically she can't do if you're using the Shadow Weave. ;) But Mystra herself isn't your real problem. It's all her lackeys. After all there isn't much she can do if you're using the Shadow Weave or Psionics short of coming down in Avatar form to kill you. However, doing that will likely get her killed anyway considering that everyone in the group is likely level 40+ and could probably school Larloch in a straight up spell battle. :P
captaincarot 06-22-07, 12:33 PM	i've just had a bit of inspiration! hows about you make a spell, which Altered reality, to make every one believe that you were the source of magic in the realms. now if a god gets their power through worship, and your spell made them all believe that you were the source of the power. then they would all be worshiping you. this should then strip the divine essence from mystra and give it to you. the lawyers might have a thing or 2 to say about it, but the consequence of the time of troubles means that a god with no worshipers has very little power. this should then mean that mystra has very little power, the force of worship should give you loads and you can just trundle up and squish her. whether you would end up in another karsus incident or not would probably be up to Ao but it might be worth a try. but don't tell cyric because he'd probably trydoing it to a different god every friday night when he came back from the pub drunk just for a laugh.
Alediran 06-22-07, 12:44 PM	i've just had a bit of inspiration! hows about you make a spell, which Altered reality, to make every one believe that you were the source of magic in the realms. now if a god gets their power through worship, and your spell made them all believe that you were the source of the power. then they would all be worshiping you. this should then strip the divine essence from mystra and give it to you. the lawyers might have a thing or 2 to say about it, but the consequence of the time of troubles means that a god with no worshipers has very little power. this should then mean that mystra has very little power, the force of worship should give you loads and you can just trundle up and squish her. whether you would end up in another karsus incident or not would probably be up to Ao but it might be worth a try. but don't tell cyric because he'd probably trydoing it to a different god every friday night when he came back from the pub drunk just for a laugh. There has ben much evidence that power from worshippers is only part of the god's power. With Lolth's move during WotSQ she gained power even with the heavy losses among her followers. Magic is a powerfull force on Toril, as powerfull as life itself, and even if all mortals chose to not worship gods any longer the power differences among them would still be more or less the same. Meldread, if you research a spell in Oerth and then you bring it to Faerūn, the spell upon entering Realmspace is "researched" again since it didn't existed until that moment, therefore Mystra can prevent it's entry.
Meldread 06-22-07, 01:13 PM	Meldread, if you research a spell in Oerth and then you bring it to Faerūn, the spell upon entering Realmspace is "researched" again since it didn't existed until that moment, therefore Mystra can prevent it's entry. Really? Damn. I didn't know that. In either case we have to remember that there have been some spells in the past *cough*Karsus Avatar*cough* that have pretty much done the same thing. If Mystra had the power or was willing to use the power to prevent it, wouldn't Mystryl have prevented such a spell from basically well... forcing him to commit suicide?
XHereticX 06-22-07, 01:14 PM	There has ben much evidence that power from worshippers is only part of the god's power. With Lolth's move during WotSQ she gained power even with the heavy losses among her followers. Magic is a powerfull force on Toril, as powerfull as life itself, and even if all mortals chose to not worship gods any longer the power differences among them would still be more or less the same. Meldread, if you research a spell in Oerth and then you bring it to Faerūn, the spell upon entering Realmspace is "researched" again since it didn't existed until that moment, therefore Mystra can prevent it's entry. Hmm, I have an idea. Remember, Mystra is not the weave, she is only its custodian. So she draws upon it for power just like everyone else does.... What if you are able to cut Mystra off from the weave using the shadow weave? Or...you could always create your own weave. Mystra certainly has no authority over any weave but her own. As for her preventing you from making a new spell, just do some digging and find a old one that suits your purposes. I am just throwing around ideas here, the very thought of defeating Mystra is insanity but I can do nothing to disallude the determined soul.
captaincarot 06-22-07, 01:17 PM	Really? Damn. I didn't know that. In either case we have to remember that there have been some spells in the past *cough*Karsus Avatar*cough* that have pretty much done the same thing. If Mystra had the power or was willing to use the power to prevent it, wouldn't Mystryl have prevented such a spell from basically well... forcing him to commit suicide? but karsus stone making exploits were before the weave was reworked, specifically to stop that sort of thing from happening again, since that time, she has kept a much tighter rain on things and only allows really powerfull stuff to be created after a full explanation has been provided in triplicate and her lawyers have read it through a few dozen times to check for any loop holes. it's only after this that she says you can do it or not.
captaincarot 06-22-07, 01:19 PM	Hmm, I have an idea. Or...you could always create your own weave. . selune might have someting to say about that, she is the only goddess who has ever made one so she's probably got the portfolio.
Alediran 06-22-07, 01:33 PM	Really? Damn. I didn't know that. In either case we have to remember that there have been some spells in the past *cough*Karsus Avatar*cough* that have pretty much done the same thing. If Mystra had the power or was willing to use the power to prevent it, wouldn't Mystryl have prevented such a spell from basically well... forcing him to commit suicide? Its possible that, like the dwarvish captain said, Mystryl didn't make any checking to spells researched and what they did, since nobody could forsee that some mortal could develop a spell to steal godhood (gods at that time where less aware of their "mortality")
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 02:24 PM	I wasn't saying they were part of her portfolio, but they are susceptible to things like Antimagic fields, and dispel magic. And last time I checked, she has both in abundance. ;) Oh, that. I thought you meant that she had divine dominion over psionics like she does spells.
Meldread 06-22-07, 04:42 PM	but karsus stone making exploits were before the weave was reworked, specifically to stop that sort of thing from happening again, since that time, she has kept a much tighter rain on things and only allows really powerfull stuff to be created after a full explanation has been provided in triplicate and her lawyers have read it through a few dozen times to check for any loop holes. it's only after this that she says you can do it or not. Wrong. Mystryl had the following portfolios before his suicide: Magic, spells, the weave, wizards, spell casters, energy, creativity, knowledge, invention, song, time and spring. All deities have portfolio sense, and therefore it is almost impossible to imagine a situation in which Mystryl did not in some way know what was coming. Unless there was some way around it. I mean, frankly that is a big gaping hole in the lore. If Karsus could get away with Karsus Avatar when Mystryl had THAT type of power, then certainly I believe someone else could create a spell using the Shadow Weave to somehow destroy the Weave. After all let us not forget that Midnight is new to the post and Mystryl had what... at least several thousand years of experience during the most magically intense period in history? If a player actually went through all the trouble of going through a campaign, battling Chosen, battling the near infinite amount of Mystra lovers, doing everything he could to avoid Mystra and her power and battling it when he could not… only to eventually be told, "Mystra decides to not let this happen." That is pretty gimp, considering past lore.
Zevox 06-22-07, 04:44 PM	Remember, Mystra is not the weave, she is only its custodian. Incorrect - Mystra is the Weave. Always has been. Thats why the death of Mystryl caused the Weave to briefly cease to exist, and why it had the be re-created by Mystra upon her reincarnation. Zevox
Leukrythus 06-22-07, 05:45 PM	I am starting a chosen campaign with my pcs, and their ultimate goal is to kill Mystra. I am looking for any insight or possible ways to sucessfully kill her. I also cant find any info on the Dweomerheart, can anyone help me...? Start the group at 40th level or higher, and make sure you have at least ten players. Then be generous with experience and magic. After a few months of playing they should be ready. Go for it!
Zandilar 06-22-07, 08:33 PM	Heya, That would be a scary setting, more Midnight than Toril, where all magic comes from a dark and tainted source, with illusion and necromancy magic being the most common. The setting would be more swords and sorcery, in the vein of Conan, and less all-powerful mages running everything behind the scenes. Arcane magic would be severely hampered in attempts to call up energy, particularly light, and the priesthoods of the good gods would become more prevalent, if beleaguered, as they would be the only ones able to channel light into a world suddenly grown darker and more sinister... They would? You realise that they'd also be relying on the Shadow Weave for their spells, don't you? Divine spells rely on the Weave currently, and won't work without it. This would result in a HUGE loss of power for the Good gods, because suddenly they'd need to kowtow to Shar... and we all know what Shar's attitude would be, don't we? (Not within Shar's interest to allow the priests of her enemies the ability to cast spells - besides which, she doesn't even have the Shadow Weave in her portfolio... I suppose it's possible that Ao might strip her ability to control it from her and give it to someone else...) This would give Shar the ultimate boost on the road towards her ultimate victory. I doubt Ao would ever let this come to pass. Imagine the Chosen, cut off from the source of their power. Some, like Alustriel, might choose to turn to Clerical power, others, like the Simbul, might grasp desperately at Shadow Weave magic, to 'fight shadow with shadow' against her Thayvian neighbors. At least one Chosen might become the new Halaster / Sammaster, broken by the fall from grace, and the Silence of Mystra, raving and dangerous, or worse, raving and *not* dangerous, an embarassment to all who knew them in their proud glory. Most of them would be dead, simply because they've been sustained by Silverfire for well past a normal mortal's lifespan. They might have between thirty and sixty years left (the Seven Sisters, nearly all appear to be in their lush mid-thirties - so if we start with that as a base, and don't take into concideration other longevity magics, they have about another thirty to sixty years at the most going by a standard human lifespan. (Why is this? The daughters of Mystra are only human, the touch of elf blood may extend their life span slightly beyond a norma human's, but none of them are DvR 0 (which they should be, since they're the daughters of a goddess)). @Meldread - Mystryl was a SHE not a HE. Gods damn it, where are people getting this idea that Mystryl was a he? She's been a she since the begining of her existence.
Meldread 06-22-07, 08:45 PM	@Meldread - Mystryl was a SHE not a HE. Gods damn it, where are people getting this idea that the original Mystra was a he? She's been a she since the begining of her existence. Uggh. Yes I know. I meant she, sorry. I was under the impression that it was a man from a long time back due to a picture in one of the books (forget which) of one of her clerics which happen to be male. Under the picture it had "Mystryl" so I ended up thinking she was a dark skinned man with a white beard up until about a year ago. :P Most of them would be dead, simply because they've been sustained by Silverfire for well past a normal mortal's lifespan. They might have between thirty and sixty years left (the Seven Sisters, who nearly all appear to be in their lush mid-thirties - so if we start with that as a base, and don't take into concideration other longevity magics, they have about another thirty to sixty years at the most going by a standard human lifespan. (Why is this? The daughters of Mystra are only human, the touch of elf blood may extend their life span slightly beyond a norma human's, but none of them are DvR 0 (which they should be, since they're the daughters of a goddess)). Not sure what would happen exactly however I am going to say the Seven Sisters are immortal. They are the offspring of a deity, thus making them DvR 0 (a hero deity). That is just how I view them. Elminster on the other hand might just fall over dead. This would give Shar the ultimate boost on the road towards her ultimate victory. I doubt Ao would ever let this come to pass. Neither do I. If Mystra was somehow slain I think Ao will just show up at Shar's place, smile and say, "Hey Crazy Shadow Lady, since you now possess the only Weave for Toril you have to share it with everyone just like Mystra did. Be a good girl and I won't kill you. Bye!" *poof* After that Shar goes off into one of her many dark corners, sulks, bemoans the horrors of the world exclaiming why it should all be destroyed... and back to her plotting. All she has is her bitterness :(
BrennonGoldeye 06-22-07, 09:24 PM	My Gods people, out for a few days and this is what happens? :uh-huh:
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 09:40 PM	Mystryl was a SHE not a HE. Gods damn it, where are people getting this idea that Mystryl was a he? She's been a she since the begining of her existence. It's prolly because NEoM mentions Mystryl as "He" somewhere in it's numerous spelling and grammatical flaws. It's an obvious typo of course.
Cadrio 06-22-07, 10:16 PM	A few things: 1. Chosen of which deity? 2. What is the story behind the campaign? 3. What type of characters? Answer: The only way to destroy Mystra is to destroy the Weave, as they are the same. This is possible to do. Do not focus on assaulting and killing Mystra herself but rather think of a way to destroy the Weave. For this to work you will either need to be Psions or Shadow Weave users. Note: Destroying the Weave will slowly result in the death of all things on Toril, and the ultimate victory of Shar. Therefore the end of all life. My pcs are chosen of different gods.....A Half-Dragon chosen of Tiamat, A shade Chosen of Shar, A Ghoul chosen of Talona, A Half fiend chosen of Velsharoon. I know the some of the gods have conflicting interests but i need a main idea to get them all together and destroy Mystra or the Weave My First idea was to have a Epic level npc send each of the pcs on an assignment to test their prowess, then convince them to join his group/team/guild, whatever... then plotto kill Mystra
Dark Wizard 06-22-07, 10:29 PM	Sounds like you have a plan already, so just go with it.
XHereticX 06-22-07, 10:30 PM	My pcs are chosen of different gods.....A Half-Dragon chosen of Tiamat, A shade Chosen of Shar, A Ghoul chosen of Talona, A Half fiend chosen of Velsharoon. I know the some of the gods have conflicting interests but i need a main idea to get them all together and destroy Mystra or the Weave My First idea was to have a Epic level npc send each of the pcs on an assignment to test their prowess, then convince them to join his group/team/guild, whatever... then plotto kill Mystra Hmm, the Chosen of Velsharoon might betray them since his patron kind of depends on the weave to do his research and indirectly SERVES Mystra. Then again, Velsharoon has been cozying up to Shar lately a lot...;) And in the snowball in Hell''s chance that they actually manage to kill the Lady of Mysteries (which is actually pretty high consitering Stygia and Cania), I wonder which patron is going to take Mystra's portfolios? Or do the PCs fight amongst themselves for the portfolios. Or do they share and then go whale on their gods. Ahh, the possibilities:P
Cadrio 06-22-07, 10:47 PM	Hmm, the Chosen of Velsharoon might betray them since his patron kind of depends on the weave to do his research and indirectly SERVES Mystra. Then again, Velsharoon has been cozying up to Shar lately a lot...;) And in the snowball in Hell''s chance that they actually manage to kill the Lady of Mysteries (which is actually pretty high consitering Stygia and Cania), I wonder which patron is going to take Mystra's portfolios? Or do the PCs fight amongst themselves for the portfolios. Or do they share and then go whale on their gods. Ahh, the possibilities:P One of my ideas was based that Shar is trying to ally herself with the other gods. Then sending the pcs to kill Mystra and have shar take over both weaves...... I am also in need of tools to help me keep organized, because the last Epic battle i was in i had a 26th lv Wu Jen, and it took us an hour to go through 2 rounds...
ElberethSilverleaf 06-23-07, 12:11 AM	Why does there even need to be a "weave" at all? Who originally came up with the idea, Ed or the beancounters at TSR/WOTC? Greyhawk functions perfectly well without all of the weave stuff. Since Corellon is multidimensional, not limited to Faerun and has existed before Faerun was even conceived why isn't he the god of Magic? After all didn't the elves teach the Netherese everything they knew about magic in the first place?
souldnce9 06-23-07, 01:30 AM	Hmm, you could attain divinity, kill Mystra, and seize her portfolios can't you? I'll let you know when I attain divinity. :angelhide Though I think I would go for Masks portfolios first. :D Then all of us worthy rogues can have a CN God instead of a Nuetral Stupid god who gets his portfolios stolen! Then I will go after some of Cyrics, then Mystra's! Actually forget Mystra, why would I waste time trying to kill her? I still think it's crazy! :looloo: Wanna be my chosen? Why does there even need to be a "weave" at all? Who originally came up with the idea, Ed or the beancounters at TSR/WOTC? Greyhawk functions perfectly well without all of the weave stuff. Since Corellon is multidimensional, not limited to Faerun and has existed before Faerun was even conceived why isn't he the god of Magic? After all didn't the elves teach the Netherese everything they knew about magic in the first place? Personally I like the flavor of the weave. I was actaully thinking of creating a magic system in my own campaign world based off of C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy. However it would make spellcasters a little less powerful, so I'd have to do some extra work to make it work, and I'm lazy. Greyhawk is boring. :P
Zevox 06-23-07, 02:57 AM	Why does there even need to be a "weave" at all? Who originally came up with the idea, Ed or the beancounters at TSR/WOTC? Greyhawk functions perfectly well without all of the weave stuff. Since Corellon is multidimensional, not limited to Faerun and has existed before Faerun was even conceived why isn't he the god of Magic? After all didn't the elves teach the Netherese everything they knew about magic in the first place? Because its an integral part of the setting as created by Ed Greenwood. Its how magic functions in the Realms. I'm not sure how far back it goes precisely, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Weave pre-dates D&D, given that Mystra and several of her Chosen do. Corellon is not the God of Magic for Faerūn because he is an interloper, not a Deity native to the world - native Deities in the Realms are far more integrally tied to their portfolios than interlopers (such as Mystra physically being the Weave, or how Cyric losing the Death portfolio caused death to briefly cease across Faerūn, and so on). Mystryl and the Weave existed in the Realms before Corellon and the Seldarine immigrated here, and hence she is the principle God of Magic for the world. As for the Elves and the Netherese, Elves did teach them the basics early in the nation's history, but it was the Nether Scrolls (scribed by the Sarrukh) that caused them to gain the immense mastery of magic that transformed their society and for which they are renowned. Zevox
Zsych 06-23-07, 03:33 AM	@Red Wizard: Mystryl commited suicide, to the best of her knowledge forever destroying all magic on Toril with her death since she had no backups.... This is definitely not a case of good intentions or trying to save Magic. Mystryl being a goodie in her suicide is merely a common misconception :) -- @Elbereth: The Netherese gave up the simple minded, more art than science view the elves had of magic very early, for the more scientific view of the Nether Scrolls, and in around 300 years, they had almost reached the level of the elves using their new magical path. -- On killing Mystra... I actually like the idea of a mass-mind-whammy, to shift faith. A god might not be totally dependent on it, but enough people believing that someone else is the god of magic should be enough to tear control from Mystra. Also, I'd research something similar to the ability Helm used to trap Midnight, seperating her from the Weave and her powers(its not like Helm is stronger than Mystra.... the research path for suppressing a god's power, should be similar to the Imaskari research path.. starting with experimentation on the nature of divine power by cruel and unusual experiments on clerics :)) -- If you're gonna attack Mystra with a spell, and one that is expected to reach Dweomerheart, you may as well do it from a place where the Weave doesn't exist and Mystra has no chance of seeing the attack coming ahead of time. -- .. you could research the way in which Mystra's mind is linked to the Weave, and attempt to sever it or replace her mind with someone else's. (I don't really see this working, since you need to research on Mystra and the Weave, and she should be able to tell something of where the research is going) --- @KtM: I still say that a spell is not an independent existence. It only has meaning through something like the Weave that interprets it as something worthy of a response. And a Shadow-weave spell has different mechanics, and is seperately interpreted. Mystra would have to stop someone from being able to draw on the shadow-weave and then saying *blah* *blah*, to stop the spell from functioning. I don't believe it. Mystra should just be lady of all things to do with the Weave. If Shar modifies the Shadow-weave to function in the way the old Weave did(using the spell points system), with no memorization required either(or has already done something like that), there's nothing Mystra can do about it. --- As for the Chosen... in all likelihood, nothing short of their deaths is going to take away the power Mystra I gave them. Magic being dead would cause them problems, but if they go to a place where the Weave is not needed, they will still have their Chosen powers. Elminster should really try to research ways to access the godhood within him. In fact, that could also be an interesting avenue. Attempt to hurt Mystra through parts of her godhood that she has left for backup in the Chosen. (would need to capture and hold a Chosen against the wrath of Mystra and all her cohorts though... could try going to the domain of a powerful enough god who doesn't approve of Mystra... maybe a non-Realmsian god, who has philosophical differences with Mystra... lets say, a god of magic somewhere, who doesn't approve of Mystra limiting magic on Toril... or maybe one who just doesn't like magic, and would be pleased to support someone trying to take a magic diety down)
Alleran 06-23-07, 07:56 AM	.. you could research the way in which Mystra's mind is linked to the Weave, and attempt to sever it or replace her mind with someone else's. Mystra pretty much IS the Weave, IIRC. It isn't just a simple link.
Red_Wizard 06-23-07, 08:42 AM	@Red Wizard: Mystryl commited suicide, to the best of her knowledge forever destroying all magic on Toril with her death since she had no backups.... This is definitely not a case of good intentions or trying to save Magic. Mystryl being a goodie in her suicide is merely a common misconception :) Actually she destroyed her Mystryl form, to be reborn as Mystra. Mystra did not appear out of nowhere, she was the latest incarnation of the goddess of magic, and reformed with the new rules barring true 10th+ spells. Mystra, and Midnight Mystra, both retain(ed) all the memories of their predessesors, and thus one can assume that she is merely the same being just further refined. Also, in sacrificing herself, she not only saved the weave (her reasoning for doing so in the first place) but also, saved the two remaining plumeting cities before they could crash destructivly down. So there is no black mark on her for this instance.
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 10:27 AM	Actually she destroyed her Mystryl form, to be reborn as Mystra. Mystra did not appear out of nowhere, she was the latest incarnation of the goddess of magic, and reformed with the new rules barring true 10th+ spells. She did not kill herself with the intent to be reborn. It was pure accident that Mystryl's divine essence fell to Toril and...smacked (for lack of better term) a mindless farm girl being taken care of by kin. Her name happened to be Mystra. Mystryl had no backup plans or contingencies. Mystra, and Midnight Mystra, both retain(ed) all the memories of their predessesors, and thus one can assume that she is merely the same being just further refined. Or more watered down. That's how I see it anyway. With each death the mind gets further diluted. Much like the portfolio that goes with it. It just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
Caterpillar 06-23-07, 01:06 PM	She can block Psionics as easy as any other spell. Transparency means that she won't have to worry about either SW, or Psionics. She can't control psionics. If i'm wrong about this, cite your info plz.
Zevox 06-23-07, 02:24 PM	She can't control psionics. If i'm wrong about this, cite your info plz. No, you're right, Mystra does not control Psionics. Thats Auppenser's portfolio. But if you use magic-psionics transparency, which is the default, magic can stop psionics as easily as it can other magic, hence things like an anitmagic field will work equally well against psionics, giving Mystra defenses against Psionics nearly as great as her defenses against magic. Zevox
msatran 06-23-07, 02:36 PM	Your problem is not summoning the Simbul. For something like this, you'll have to fight Zass Tam AND the Simbul. AT THE SAME TIME, NO LESS. I don't think there's a single PC in my game who wouldn't volunteer to eliminate these people. Kill Mystra. Right. What is WRONG with you people? Doesn't anyone understand theme, context, and story anymore? EVIL is NOT Cool. Playing evil characters in a non-intrigue based setting simply means that you are so psychologically disempowered in the real world that you can't get an erection and feel the need to take it out on your fellow players.
Meldread 06-23-07, 02:59 PM	I have something that may be helpful to your campaign. I've been working on a Chosen of Shar template for something completely unrelated, which is a modified version of the Simbul's Template for Mystra's Chosen. It also includes access to "Shadow Fire". You may find it useful and if your players are seriously considering going down this road - you will need it. Chosen of Shar Type/Subtype: Same as the character. Appearance: No different from other creatures of their type. Special Qualities: Retains all of the special qualities of the character and gains the following: Spell Resistance (Su): The Chosen of Shar gain a base Spell Resistance of 25 plus an additional point of spell resistance for each character level. Shadow Weave Focus (Su): Upon gaining this template, a Chosen of Shar is forever barred from using the Weave. In addition, all spells cast through the Shadow Weave have a +2 bonus to their saving throw DC's and a +2 to their effective caster level (for purposes of determining level dependant spell variables, Dispel Checks, Spell Resistance checks, and opposed caster level checks). Immunities (Ex): A Chosen of Shar is immune to Blindness, Deafness, Disease, Disintegration, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Poison, Sleep effects, Mind Affecting Spells (such as Charm Person, Domination and Mindrape), and Death Magic (such as Circle of Death and Finger of Death). Darksight (Ex): The Chosen of Shar may see perfectly in any form of darkness, magical or mundane as if she had permanent Ultravision Immortality (Ex): Chosen of Shar are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Chosen do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a Chosen to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Mantle of Secrets (Su): A Chosen of Shar is immune to all scrying and divination effects, and all effects that discern her thoughts or alignment. Likewise, a Chosen cannot be controlled or compelled by any magical, supernatural, or psionic abilities or effects, although a clever Chosen may play along and pretend to be acting under an enemy's charm or compulsion. In addition, a Chosen's Truename cannot be discovered or discerned by any being unless the Chosen willingly chooses to reveal it to them. Name Attunement (Su): Whenever the Chosen or Shar's name is spoken, the Chosen hears it and the next fifteen words uttered by the being that spoke her name. The ability does not inhibit or interfere with concentration, and can be suppressed or resumed as a free action. Shadow Walker (Su): At will as a free action the Chosen of Shar may slip away into any darkness or shadow as per the Shadow Walk spell with a few exceptions. First, the Chosen may remain between the illusionary borders for as long as she wishes. Second, the Chosen may take an unlimited number of individuals with them who receive no saving throw. Third, the Chosen moves at a speed of 10 miles per level, and forth the Chosen always appears within their desired destination. Dreamstalker (Su): The Chosen of Shar may step into the dreams of any who have Shar as their patron deity and may alter those dreams as seen fit. The individual instinctively understands that it is not a normal dream and cannot awaken from the dream until the Chosen allows it. The individual in the dream is considered awake and may act and respond normally within the constraints set by the dream. The Chosen also has the ability to connect multiple dreams working with a number of different people in the same "dream" at once. Whatever happens in the dream is considered real, therefore if someone dies in the dream they die in the waking world as well. Shadow Fire (Su): A Chosen of Shar can wield Shadow Fire (detailed below). Saves: +5 saving bonus to all saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. Abilities: +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, +4 Intelligence, +2 Dexterity Skills: +10 insight bonus to Spellcraft Checks. Unknown Powers: The Mistress of Secret's Chosen may yet have more powers that remain unrevealed, in some instances even to the Chosen themselves. Climate/Terrain: Same as the character. Organization: Same as the character. Challenge Rating: +8. Alignment: Same as the character. Treasure: Same as the character. Advancement: Same as the character. Shadow Fire This powerful supernatural ability is unique to the Chosen of Shar and is a portion of the raw magical energy of the shadow weave that lays dormant within their bodies until called upon. It manifests as a cold and dark flame that surrounds the wielder and darkens the area into which it is projected, and can be used for any of the following magical effects: The Shadow Fire can banish all magical effects upon the chosen as if a Greater Dispelling spell had been cast upon her, with the exception that the spell check bonus is not capped at caster level 20. This use of the Shadow Fire can be called upon at will, once per round. The Shadow Fire may be used to drain the life of living creatures. It acts as a bolt whose size is determined at the time of use, but can be up to 5 feet wide and 5 feet tall per level of the Chosen, and drains 1d4 points of health for every two levels of the Chosen to all creatures in its path. It may not be blocked by any type of barrier, as it will burn a hole in any object that stands in between it and a living creature. Any being in the path of the bolt may attempt a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Chosen's level + the Chosen's Charisma modifier) for half damage. The Chosen may also unleash the Shadow Fire in the form of a darkened life stealing sphere, which is hurled at a single target by means of a ranged touch attack (no save) and deals 1d4 points of life stealing damage for every two levels of the Chosen. This use of the Shadow Fire breaches all magical and supernatural barriers and defenses automatically. The life stolen from the subject is then transferred to the Chosen. If the Chosen is healed beyond their normal amount of hit points the life stolen acts as temporary hit points until they are lost. Both of these uses of the Shadow Fire can only be called upon once per every six rounds. The Shadow Fire can be used to either permanently dominate or cause insanity as per the dominate person and insanity spell descriptions. Using the Shadow Fire in this method allows powerful intelligent creatures to attempt a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Chosen's level + the Chosen's Charisma modifier) to avoid falling under the effects. Weak willed creatures and unintelligent undead receive no save. Intelligent and powerful undead receive a -5 to their saving throw. This use of the Shadow Fire breaches all magical and supernatural barriers or defenses automatically, and the only creatures immune are those who cannot be placed under domination or insanity spell effects. The exception to this are unintelligent undead who instantly fall under the command of the Chosen. This use of the Shadow Fire may be called upon at will, once per round. The Shadow Fire can be unleashed as a dark cloud-like emanation with a 90 foot radius per level of the Chosen, permanently banishing all Dead Shadow Weave Magic zones and dispelling all Antimagic effects it comes into contact with. This cloud effect is draining on the Shadow Weave, and it can only be called upon once per hour and should only be used for dire emergencies. The Shadow Fire can also use the same cloud-like emanation as above to create a cloud that drains power from the Weave and gives it to the Shadow Weave instead. This effect is permanent unless removed by a Wish, Miracle or the Silver Fire. Over time the area will become a Dead Magic Zone for the Weave and the cloud will dissipate. All Shadow Magic Spells cast within an area so affected gain a +2 DC Bonus, last 1d4 longer than normal and acts as if it is under the effect of the Empower Spell Metamagic Feat. The Shadow Fire may be used at will as a free action to blanket an entire area in Deeper Darkness up to 100 feet per level of the Chosen. The length of the darkness is determined at the time of the casting. The Shadow Fire may be used to contribute to an Epic Spell ritual as though it were a spell, or be included into the development of an Epic Spell as a unique spell component. The Spellcraft DC reduction of any Epic Spell that uses the Shadow Fire as a spell focus is -20, and the reduction for any Epic Spell that uses contributions of the Shadow Fire to its ritual is -20 for each Chosen contributing Shadow Fire to the Spell. All of the above effects of the Shadow Fire function as if cast by a spell caster equal to the level of the Chosen.
Zsych 06-23-07, 05:35 PM	Playing an evil campaign from time to time is good for you. And killing Mystra sends the setting down one of its possible conclusions(Shar's victory). @Alleran: When Karsus took control of the Weave, Mystryl's consciousness wasn't exactly effected, just her ability to control the Weave(although the Weave may have contained Mystryl's knowledge). When Midnight became Mystra, her mind took over the Weave(which remained much as it had been before). When Helm imprisoned Midnight, she lost contact with the Weave and it shut down(if her existence was as vast as the Weave, no localized imprisonment of her central consciousness would work) Anyway, I'd say its like a brain and a body. If you can find a suitable replacement, you may be able to replace the brain in the body. And destroying the brain would kill the person without necessarily destroying the body.
Boda 06-23-07, 05:57 PM	Three proven ways of killing mystra: -A new uber spell(unlikely since she removed 12th level spells of the weave) -Throw her into to some place, rig the way out, and taunt her saying that she cant return(sooo ''back to the future'', mcfly!), and she will step into anything just to prove you wrong. -Put her chosen in a pit in the shadow plane, wait for mommy magic to show to the rescue and tip shar and cyric about it(and them watch as Ao gives the weave to selune to balance things up and annoy shar). -Persuade Lathander that magic is evil, and watch him ''Dawn'' her. Mystra is just the latest deity of the weave.Kill her and someone else will take her place.Vote for Halaster for replacement!
Meldread 06-23-07, 06:32 PM	Halaster has my vote for the new deity of the Weave. ;) Although I wouldn't mind it falling to Selune. It would seem more in line with the rest of the setting now that the Shadow Weave is in play, and make the conflict between the sisters even more heated.
XHereticX 06-23-07, 06:59 PM	Why does there even need to be a "weave" at all? Who originally came up with the idea, Ed or the beancounters at TSR/WOTC? Greyhawk functions perfectly well without all of the weave stuff. Since Corellon is multidimensional, not limited to Faerun and has existed before Faerun was even conceived why isn't he the god of Magic? After all didn't the elves teach the Netherese everything they knew about magic in the first place? The day the Weave ends is the day Toril gets overrun by naked people with M-16s, that is all I'm saying.:P Anyway, yeah, there is a good chance they will kill off the current Mystra, who is really doing a poor job at divinity. I still don't like the idea of a NG goddess of the weave, kind of biased that way. The god/ess of magic should be TN to complement all kinds of spellcasters without BSing towards one side or the other. I think this recent wave of chosen deaths will result in a new Mystra and a new outlook on her chosen, one that will hopefully be more balanced.
Zandilar 06-23-07, 08:29 PM	Heya, I am also in need of tools to help me keep organized, because the last Epic battle i was in i had a 26th lv Wu Jen, and it took us an hour to go through 2 rounds... Par for the course for epic battles, let me tell you. Organization will help you a little bit, but only a little. Because its an integral part of the setting as created by Ed Greenwood. Its how magic functions in the Realms. I'm not sure how far back it goes precisely, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Weave pre-dates D&D, given that Mystra and several of her Chosen do. Well, several of her Chosen do... but Lurue was originally the goddess of magic, and she was quite a different deity (I can't remember all the details of how she came to be replaced by Mystra for the Dungeons and Dragons version of the Realms, but Ed has spoken about this on Candlekeep. I'm sure a search of Kuje's archives for Ed's answers would yield the full explanation). Still, I'm fairly sure the Weave also predates Dungeons and Dragons. (The Shadow Weave does not, so ner. :P) .. you could research the way in which Mystra's mind is linked to the Weave, and attempt to sever it or replace her mind with someone else's. Mystra's mind isn't linked to the Weave. Mystra IS the Weave. You can't seperate them. (I don't know how Helm's prison worked, I think it blinded her rather than severerd any link. Maybe it was more like a sensory deprivation tank for a deity?) She did not kill herself with the intent to be reborn. It was pure accident that Mystryl's divine essence fell to Toril and...smacked (for lack of better term) a mindless farm girl being taken care of by kin. Her name happened to be Mystra. Mystryl had no backup plans or contingencies. Actually, we don't know this for sure. Remember, we don't know anything about the gods with any certianty. What we have are just commonly believed theories. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mystyl planned for her demise. There is no way she would not have forseen what Karsus was planning, and there is no way she could not have stopped him had she had a care to. It was probably all part of a deeper plan, since when the Weave came back it was fundamentally different. EVIL is NOT Cool. Playing evil characters in a non-intrigue based setting simply means that you are so psychologically disempowered in the real world that you can't get an erection and feel the need to take it out on your fellow players. :D :rofl: I agree. This whole thing will actually just boil down to an exercise in maths and probability (ie: combat and dice rolls). But, meh. Whatever floats their boat. When Midnight became Mystra, her mind took over the Weave(which remained much as it had been before). When Helm imprisoned Midnight, she lost contact with the Weave and it shut down(if her existence was as vast as the Weave, no localized imprisonment of her central consciousness would work) This was a problem, IMHO, with Crucible: the Trial of Cyric the Mad. It should not have been possible for the gods to imprison her like that. But as people will contest, it's artistic licence. Authors bend the setting and the world rules to suit their stories. I feel a good author should be able to work within the world rules, but meh - what would I know? I'm not published yet, and I don't plan to be published by WotC. -Put her chosen in a pit in the shadow plane, wait for mommy magic to show to the rescue and tip shar and cyric about it(and them watch as Ao gives the weave to selune to balance things up and annoy shar). :rofl: Yes, this is very likely going to be the outcome. I don't see Ao giving the Weave to Shar, nor do I particularly see him giving the weave to someone who isn't at least Neutrally aligned on the Good/Evil axis. The god/ess of magic should be TN to complement all kinds of spellcasters without BSing towards one side or the other. I think this recent wave of chosen deaths will result in a new Mystra and a new outlook on her chosen, one that will hopefully be more balanced. I doubt it. Midnight has only been a goddess for 16 years. Prior to that, she was mortal. The time scale of deities is vaster than anything we can possibly imagine... It will take Midnight some time to completely ease into her role, and there will be some hiccups along the way. I don't think Ao would really want to replace her after so short a time, and have to start this process all over again. (But then again, 16 years is a god's blink or less, so maybe...) Give Midnight a couple of hundred years before you think about replacing her... Sheesh.
BrennonGoldeye 06-23-07, 09:03 PM	She can't control psionics. If i'm wrong about this, cite your info plz. No, you're right, Mystra does not control Psionics. Thats Auppenser's portfolio. But if you use magic-psionics transparency, which is the default, magic can stop psionics as easily as it can other magic, hence things like an anitmagic field will work equally well against psionics, giving Mystra defenses against Psionics nearly as great as her defenses against magic. Zevox Well i was gonna say something but what Zevox said bears repeating so I did.:) Your problem is not summoning the Simbul. For something like this, you'll have to fight Zass Tam AND the Simbul. AT THE SAME TIME, NO LESS. I don't think there's a single PC in my game who wouldn't volunteer to eliminate these people. Kill Mystra. Right. What is WRONG with you people? Doesn't anyone understand theme, context, and story anymore? EVIL is NOT Cool. Playing evil characters in a non-intrigue based setting simply means that you are so psychologically disempowered in the real world that you can't get an erection and feel the need to take it out on your fellow players. Finally, someone willing to call a slaad a slaad.:cip::D:cip: Three proven ways of killing mystra: -A new uber spell(unlikely since she removed 12th level spells of the weave) -Throw her into to some place, rig the way out, and taunt her saying that she cant return(sooo ''back to the future'', mcfly!), and she will step into anything just to prove you wrong. -Put her chosen in a pit in the shadow plane, wait for mommy magic to show to the rescue and tip shar and cyric about it(and them watch as Ao gives the weave to selune to balance things up and annoy shar). -Persuade Lathander that magic is evil, and watch him ''Dawn'' her. Mystra is just the latest deity of the weave.Kill her and someone else will take her place.Vote for Halaster for replacement! Yes, do all these things. Please. :) The day the Weave ends is the day Toril gets overrun by naked people with M-16s, that is all I'm saying. Ok, :fett::fight!::monk::dancin: Where's my M-16, and I'm waiting for the bad part... Anyway, yeah, there is a good chance they will kill off the current Mystra, who is really doing a poor job at divinity. I still don't like the idea of a NG goddess of the weave, kind of biased that way. Well see, She has done quite an excellent job of being a NG Goddess of the Weave. It does seem that the NG portion of Her reign might be a phase. Anybody else think maybe Mystra+Shar+Kelemvor=We Jas? Just throwing out options...:D The goddess of magic should be TN to complement all kinds of spellcasters without BSing towards one side or the other. I think this recent wave of chosen deaths will result in a new Mystra and a new outlook on her chosen, one that will hopefully be more balanced. Yeah yeah yeah. We have had that already. It's a clone of a dead world that's still in perpetual magical decline. See below.:thumbsdow Greyhawk functions perfectly well without all of the weave stuff. Greyhawk died quite awhile ago. Lack of cohesion it seems. They didn't have a champion powerful enough. It's clone is doing just dandy though.:p::globe::p:
Meldread 06-23-07, 09:13 PM	Yes, this is very likely going to be the outcome. I don't see Ao giving the Weave to Shar, nor do I particularly see him giving the weave to someone who isn't at least Neutrally aligned on the Good/Evil axis. I doubt he would give it to Shar because she would refuse to share it with anyone, and would no doubt try and find away to use all her new found power to zap Ao out of existence. :P However, I could very much see an evil aligned God(dess) of magic. After all Mystra is Neutral Good there is no reason there cannot be an evil deity of magic. Especially Lawful Evil. Imagine, for example, Bane becoming the new deity of the Weave. "Bane the Mage Tyrant!" :P He would encourage Wizards to rise up and use their magic to control and conquer others (Red Wizards: "Hurrah for Bane!"). He would encourage the spread of magic because only the strongest tyrant deserves to rule and because it directly gives him power to do so. :P
Meldread 06-23-07, 09:20 PM	EVIL is NOT Cool. Playing evil characters in a non-intrigue based setting simply means that you are so psychologically disempowered in the real world that you can't get an erection and feel the need to take it out on your fellow players. Every time I see that I do this: :rolleyes: That is just... crazy. I actually prefer to DM for players who are evil or play evil characters. Throw morality out the window and do whatever you want and can get away with. It is just more fun for everyone involved. The only time I've ever heard or seen it become a problem is when you run into a player who takes what happens in the game seriously... as in... not treating it for what it is: a game. Besides, that basically insults every DM on the board who, if the players are always heroic good guys, MUST play the villain.
Zevox 06-23-07, 10:19 PM	Anyway, yeah, there is a good chance they will kill off the current Mystra, who is really doing a poor job at divinity. A poor job? What makes you think shes doing a poor job? Ever since her trial, shes done almost nothing different from what her predecessor did. The god/ess of magic should be TN to complement all kinds of spellcasters without BSing towards one side or the other. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why does magic need a God like that? Theres tons of portfolios, both major and minor, out there that can apply to and be used by all the alignments that aren't in the possession of TN Gods - Death (LN Kelemvor), Secrets (NE Shar), Athleticism (NG Lathander), Obedience (LG Torm), Hapiness (CG Lliira), Song (NG Milil), Agriculture (NG Chauntea) - I could go on. Should all of those be possessed by TN deities as well? The whole concept of a magic deity being TN just because magic users can be any alignment is one of the most boring I've ever heard for a deity, frankly. So long as the deity isn't disallowing magic to be used by those of different alignments, as Mystra isn't, theres no need for him/her to be so lacking in personality. Hells, only one of the magic deities the Realms has ever had was TN - Mystryl was CN, Mystra was LN, Midnight/Mystra is NG, Corellon is CG, Savras and Azuth are LN, Velsharoon is NE, Isis is NG, and Set is LE. The only TN one is Thoth, and his portfolio is just neutral magic, not magic as a whole. Lurue was originally the goddess of magic Lurue? The Unicorn lady? Are you sure? I thought I'd heard it was Milil. Zevox
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 10:40 PM	Actually, we don't know this for sure. Remember, we don't know anything about the gods with any certianty. What we have are just commonly believed theories. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mystyl planned for her demise. There is no way she would not have forseen what Karsus was planning, and there is no way she could not have stopped him had she had a care to. It was probably all part of a deeper plan, since when the Weave came back it was fundamentally different. We know that specific aspect pretty well actually as an out-of-game explaination. April 17, 2006: Hi again, fellow scribes. Ed replies to this, from Taelohn: "... While Midnight's ascension to become (the second) Mystra is well documented, most mentions of the death of Mystryl say that she was "reborn" or "reincarnated" as (the first) Mystra. I suppose I always just assumed that Mystra sort of "sprung into existence" as a new deity. Does this instead imply that Mystryl bestowed her powers onto a mortal woman, just as she sacrificed herself? Perhaps someone she had vested powers in (like a Chosen)? If so, who was (the first) Mystra in her mortal life?" Ed speaks: Taelohn, Rory Weston is quite correct; most of the gods of the Realms were indeed "at one time mortal & "ascended" to the position." And yes, "forgotten" gods dwindle to demigod status, and can in some cases be eliminated (killed, AND their worship wrested away/portfolios subsumed by other deities) by mortals or by other deities. In the case of Mystryl, she sacrificed herself, not foreseeing that she'd be reborn. She had no Chosen or preselected mortal vessel, and did not know or intend that she'd "live on." She simply did what she believed she had to do, to end a threat to the world she loved. However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it "fell like a dying star" to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and "go into" a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl's divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as "divine fate" and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won't get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: "When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms." We don't know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was "mindless" (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystryl's "going in" to her. I'd say more, but NDAs forbid. So saith Ed, Creator of All (The Realms). love to all, THO
XHereticX 06-23-07, 10:45 PM	Still, what I mean is that being the steward of the weave, a magical force that is the very spiritual embodiment of Toril itself literally requires a overdeitylike tolerance towards all perspectives and mindsets. We are not just speaking of some random deity of Magic here, we are speaking of in terms a goddess of the spirit of Abeir-Toril. Oh, the previous two goddesses were at least Neutral, but Midnight as shown has shown a tendency to favor good over evil and her petty little mortal mind is making am mess of the ebb of the Weave. All those other random whatevers you mentioned are certain alignments because they represent a specific outlook or perspective on magic based on their respective worshippers and background. Corellon represents ELVEN MAGIC, not magic in general and certainly not Torilian magic as a whole. Being a very broad and important deity guarding an all-encompassing force that without it, Toril would be in absolute limbo if it even continues to exist at all. Ex. If corellon was given control over the weave there would be naked hippie elf chicks running around Toril blasting evil wizards to dust since the evil wizards suddenly "just lost" their powers. Control over the weave should encompass no bias, no garbage, no pettiness, just a dedication to magic on Toril and an acceptance of its practice in all forms. Well, one good thing that Midnight is trying to do is abosbing the shadow weave, which being NG and NE, would end with a perfect TN.
Dark Wizard 06-23-07, 11:50 PM	Control over the weave should encompass no bias, no garbage, no pettiness, just a dedication to magic on Toril and an acceptance of its practice in all forms. This has already been accomplished by the follow up novels to the Avatar trilogy. Mystra II now must follow a more neutral stance towards her control of the Weave. She has done so for one and a half decades of Realms time and longer in real world time. I don't see what the problem is. So she's listed as NG in supplements, but read further and you'll see her clergy includes those of her previous LN alignment and her dogma is rather broad and relatively neutral. I'm not sure about you but I figure the idea of a new goddess struggling with the fundamental concepts she has been charged with and coming to terms with her new position in the world might bring something interesting to a setting. I mean, it's not just Mystra that's affected, it's various members of her clergy and followers and this trickles down to allies and enemies and their worshipers. It brings a bit of conflict to the setting, the subtle deep rooted kind, not the loud, blatant outburst that is the Shadow Weave.
Meldread 06-24-07, 12:10 AM	What I never understood is why Mystra is NG to begin with, because as Midnight she was LN and the former incarnations of Mystra were also Neutral. Why the shift upon being elevated? It always struck me as just a way to put her into conflict with Cyric, but really the alignment shift was not even necessary for that considering Cyric is pretty much the enemy of everyone. My second problem with Mystra's NG alignment is the fact that she's forced into a neutral stance. What is the point of being NG if you must act neutral? It boggles my mind. If WotC/TSR wanted her to be neutral why not just make her neutral, or if they wanted her to be good why not let her be good? I mean, really, she can't be both at the same time and alignment is just too big of a thing to shift because she doesn't like someone.
Dark Wizard 06-24-07, 12:33 AM	What I never understood is why Mystra is NG to begin with, because as Midnight she was LN and the former incarnations of Mystra were also Neutral. Why the shift upon being elevated? Beats me. I think it could be as simple as someone just forgetting Midnight was LN. Minor hiccups like this have happened before (alignment, race, gender, etc.). My main point is that she is more or less neutral for all intents and purposes, making her all the more easy to gloss over (or bullrush with a good beat down plus kill her horse so they can leave its severed head at the foot of her bed) for those who want an a dead-neutral deity to ignore. It always struck me as just a way to put her into conflict with Cyric, but really the alignment shift was not even necessary for that considering Cyric is pretty much the enemy of everyone. Well, she's about as opposed to Cyric being LN as she is being NG. She would have to be LG to really be diametrically opposed, at least on paper. And that's right, everyone is against Cyric, probably including himself in some ways. My second problem with Mystra's NG alignment is the fact that she's forced into a neutral stance. What is the point of being NG if you must act neutral? It boggles my mind. If WotC/TSR wanted her to be neutral why not just make her neutral, or if they wanted her to be good why not let her be good? I'n not sure about what TSR/WotC wants, but isn't that what half the internet fans (the loudest bunch also) are always clamoring about? So TSR/WotC technically gives it to them and yet they still have plenty of complaints floating around. :rolleyes: I mean, really, she can't be both at the same time and alignment is just too big of a thing to shift because she doesn't like someone. Well, this is divine level dislike. :D
Meldread 06-24-07, 12:48 AM	Well, this is divine level dislike. :P No wonder Shar is evil. It explains it all! :P I'n not sure about what TSR/WotC wants, but isn't that what half the internet fans (the loudest bunch also) are always clamoring about? So TSR/WotC technically gives it to them and yet they still have plenty of complaints floating around. Well I think the vast majority want a NG Mystra. Her being NG does not really bother me all that much, it's just the fact that she's forced to be neutral by silly rules. I mean with the Shadow Weave rolling around now-a-day's Mystra can just say, "Don't like it? Well you can either use my Weave for free, or Shar's Weave at the expense of your immortal soul! You're choice!" :P It is one of the reasons I LIKE the Shadow Weave because it allows competition in the magic market place as it were. Mystra is free to be as goodie goodie as she wants. Of course, that would in turn empower Shar but really... it's not like the gods are actually smart. They do stupid things all the time and Mystra is new to the post besides. :P Right now, IMO Mystra is just a flat, useless boring character. She might as well be Lawful Neutral for all intents and purposes. Frankly, I'd LOVE to see a Lawful Evil guardian of the Weave. A deity that believes that arcane users have the right to rule Toril by right of their magical abilities. To encourage them to spread magic so as many can learn it as possible, and to crush all who oppose them. Maybe a cross between Bane and Talos. I would love to see the look on Elminsters face if such a deity were to ever ascend to divine power. I could see the Simbul swinging toward evil!
Zsych 06-24-07, 04:04 AM	They should have an alternate timeline version of Toril where something like that does happen. Would be fun(and that way, it wouldn't effect FR in general). I vote for an incarnation of Asmodeus as Guardian of the Weave.
Zandilar 06-24-07, 05:01 AM	Heya, We know that specific aspect pretty well actually as an out-of-game explaination. Okay, so you got me there. :) However, the person who brought this up implied that Mystryl sacrificed herself for purely selfish reasons, and further implied that there was even a slightly evil motivation to it, which this quote... In the case of Mystryl, she sacrificed herself, not foreseeing that she'd be reborn. She had no Chosen or preselected mortal vessel, and did not know or intend that she'd "live on." She simply did what she believed she had to do, to end a threat to the world she loved. ...completely blows out of the water. @XHereticX: Why can't the "spirit" of Abeir-Toril be Good? After all, Abeir-Toril herself aka Chauntea is Good. ;) As for this Oh, the previous two goddesses were at least Neutral, but Midnight as shown has shown a tendency to favor good over evil and her petty little mortal mind is making am mess of the ebb of the Weave. Did you not finish reading Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad? Have you not seen what has happened since then? Where has Mystra favoured Good over Evil SINCE? (Sources, please.) (And incase you think I'm talking out of my behind, in Elminster's Daughter, Mystra specifically asked the Simbul to stop killing Red Wizards.)
Alleran 06-24-07, 06:43 AM	To encourage them to spread magic so as many can learn it as possible, and to crush all who oppose them. Of course, an evil god directing the Weave to where evil has the upper hand would get pimpslapped by Ao for doing the same sort of thing Mystra did initially (directing the Weave towards a specific alignment). The Overgod would then have the LE (or NE, or CE) deity open it up equally and ensure that they took no sides in how magic was used, and then all the fans would complain that the god wasn't evil enough. IMO, Mystra can have whatever alignment she likes. It's just that she has to be impartial on the matter of who uses the Weave, and she's more or less doing that just fine.
Calmar 06-24-07, 08:08 AM	Just ask her, If she would be so kind to commit suicide. :)
Zandilar 06-24-07, 08:43 AM	Heya, IMO, Mystra can have whatever alignment she likes. It's just that she has to be impartial on the matter of who uses the Weave, and she's more or less doing that just fine. Indeed. And one thing I was trying to add to my last post when the forums went down for maintenance, just because I feel the need to point this out - Mystryl and Mystra (LN) both had fairly strong tendancies towards good anyway. Also, an Evil deity is more likely to disobey Ao's command to be fair than a Good deity.
Alleran 06-24-07, 10:13 AM	Also, an Evil deity is more likely to disobey Ao's command to be fair than a Good deity. Didn't think of that. Of course, it just means that Ao will need to pimpslap them a bit more than he would a good-aligned deity to get them back into line. :D RE the "Mystra tending towards good", I'm not as sure of that. I haven't read every FR novel out there, but the ones that I have read, notably the Avatar series, seems to indicate that she cared about justice, which wasn't the same as good. When Ao cast them all down, she wanted to barter the identities of those who took the tablets in exchange to have the innocent gods lifted from their sentence (of course, Ao would have probably known who stole them in the first place anyway). She wasn't so much concerned about good as she was about everybody being given their fair due, which would be lawful and more in line with her LN alignment. Sure, it was also a "good" act, but at the moment, it looks to me as something more akin to just happening to coincide at the time than outright, deliberate good.
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 11:35 AM	Okay, so you got me there. However, the person who brought this up implied that Mystryl sacrificed herself for purely selfish reasons, and further implied that there was even a slightly evil motivation to it, which this quote... I never understood that myself. I don't see anything selfish with it, or even remotely evil. It always seemed to me to be just really bad luck. And of course a need to explain why magic in FR uses the D&D game rules governing magic:embarrass
Red_Wizard 06-24-07, 11:55 AM	What is WRONG with you people? Doesn't anyone understand theme, context, and story anymore? EVIL is NOT Cool. Playing evil characters in a non-intrigue based setting simply means that you are so psychologically disempowered in the real world that you can't get an erection and feel the need to take it out on your fellow players. Man this irks me to no end. I kept reading it in other quotes, and hoped that you'd said more to balance out such an ignorantly short sighted remark, but I was wrong I suppose. It was only ignorance this part of your post was filled with. I for one, and I know several other people I have gamed with who would agree, prefer playing a more self oriented, or "Evil" character. Their storyline tends to be better, more posibilities are open to them, and the concept of good is so horribly flawed it's not even funny. While I don't believe there can be any truly good characters, nor do I believe there are truly good people in reality, I have never gone out of my way to say something as immaturly pathetic as this. Not all Evil is played as the simmering fools they are made out to be in most novels. Just because some younger gamers prefer a munchkin approach, does not mean what they think is "Evil" is accurate. It is a sad enough state much of the game has come to, without people further perpetrating this stereo type. There are many here who I am sure have not only gamed for a long time, but also have played both sides of the coin, and still chosen to stay on the darker one. You in this one post have put yourself on the same level as children gaming thesedays IMO, and I now pity anyone you play PnP with, especially if you DM. :waits:
Alleran 06-24-07, 12:00 PM	Their storyline tends to be better, more posibilities are open to them, Not that I think you deliberately meant to imply it, but on the whole, I wouldn't say that storylines for evil characters are inherently better than those of good characters - it depends entirely on the person creating the storyline. Of course, I often enjoy playing my LE Mage - he actually has a sense of humour and emotions... a stark contrast to a certain CE Half-Orc who's also along for the ride and a meat shield (as far as the mage is concerned). Was still a funny comment, though. I laughed at it.
Faraer 06-24-07, 01:21 PM	Who originally came up with the idea, Ed or the beancounters at TSR/WOTC?What interest would bean counters have in subtle, poetic concepts about the underlying workings of magic in the Realms?Greyhawk functions perfectly well without all of the weave stuff.Oerth undoubtedly does have some etherlike medium through which magic takes effect, we just don't know about it because Gary didn't go into that metaphysical detail.
Meldread 06-24-07, 01:33 PM	Of course, an evil god directing the Weave to where evil has the upper hand would get pimpslapped by Ao for doing the same sort of thing Mystra did initially (directing the Weave towards a specific alignment). The Overgod would then have the LE (or NE, or CE) deity open it up equally and ensure that they took no sides in how magic was used, and then all the fans would complain that the god wasn't evil enough. All the Guardian of the Weave NEEDS to do is: 1. Allow everyone equal access to the Weave without restrictions. 2. Safe guard and protect the Weave against assault from those who would try and destroy it. That is it. They can promote any outlook and use of the Weave that they wish. Do not forget that Mystra is doing the same, especially if you read her dogma. "Do not treat magic as a weapon to reshape the world to your will." and "Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly..." are the two basic highlights from that. A deity that said the opposite would not get on Ao's bad side. The reason he was angry at Mystra in the beginning was because she was restricting access to the Weave. She is free to promote the use of it however she sees fit. I do not believe a Lawful Evil deity would be any worse than the current Mystra when it comes to angering Ao. In fact, being Lawful, I would argue the opposite. That may not be true if it was Chaotic Evil, but the same could be said for Chaotic Good.
BrennonGoldeye 06-24-07, 02:40 PM	BrennonGoldeye<---Slaad Every time I see that I do this: :rolleyes: Slaad. :P Man this irks me to no end. Verbose and very convincing Slaad.:P All the Guardian of the Weave NEEDS to do is: 1. Allow everyone equal access to the Weave without restrictions. 2. Safe guard and protect the Weave against assault from those who would try and destroy it. That is it. Read those 2 numbered statements again. Imagine the conflicts between those two statements. Replace "Weave" with "Airlines". Actually, "Nuclear Weapons" would be more along the same line. "That" is nowhere near "it". ;) They can promote any outlook and use of the Weave that they wish. Do not forget that Mystra is doing the same, especially if you read her dogma. "Do not treat magic as a weapon to reshape the world to your will." and "Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly..." are the two basic highlights from that. A deity that said the opposite would not get on Ao's bad side. The reason he was angry at Mystra in the beginning was because she was restricting access to the Weave. She is free to promote the use of it however she sees fit. I agree with everything except why AO even showed up. HE showed up because Her restriction of the Weave was threatening the Concordance. She may restrict at Her will. That comes with the position. When She threatens End it gets into a whole new field.:) I do not believe a Lawful Evil deity would be any worse than the current Mystra when it comes to angering Ao. In fact, being Lawful, I would argue the opposite. That may not be true if it was Chaotic Evil, but the same could be said for Chaotic Good. While AO's problems spite alignment, I will agree that we CG are just as :smirk: prickly...:angelhide
GothicDan 06-24-07, 03:03 PM	I'd like to note that I saw few things that seemed Good-tendencied in the past Weave deities. The LN one seemed to prefer Good servants because they served her better, not because of any altruistic reasons.
BrennonGoldeye 06-24-07, 04:00 PM	I knew if I used the word "verbose" you would show up.;)
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 07:04 PM	I knew if I used the word "verbose" you would show up.;) It's a 1st level Conjuratation (Summoning) [GothicDan] spell:P
Zandilar 06-24-07, 08:19 PM	I'd like to note that I saw few things that seemed Good-tendencied in the past Weave deities. The LN one seemed to prefer Good servants because they served her better, not because of any altruistic reasons. That maybe so. However, I still got Good vibes from Mystra LN, I don't suppose I can really explain it. (Even Midnight in the Avatar series of novels didn't act much like a LN person, she seemed more Good to me than Neutral as well.) Anyway there's a reason for the saying - a Neutral person would much rather have Good people for neighbours than Evil ones. Ao would probably prefer a Good guardian of the Weave to an Evil one for much the same reasons.
Meldread 06-24-07, 08:51 PM	Ao would probably prefer a Good guardian of the Weave to an Evil one for much the same reasons. I disagree. I don't view Ao as having a preference of any type of alignment. I view Ao as a being somewhat similar to the now dead Amaunator. A being of laws. Ao does not see good or evil, he sees laws. He does not care what a deity does as long as they are obeying the laws he has created which are rather loose to say the least. Only when a deity is breaking those laws does he decide to step in and intervene.
Dark Wizard 06-24-07, 09:38 PM	I disagree. I don't view Ao as having a preference of any type of alignment. I view Ao as a being somewhat similar to the now dead Amaunator. A being of laws. Ao does not see good or evil, he sees laws. He does not care what a deity does as long as they are obeying the laws he has created which are rather loose to say the least. Only when a deity is breaking those laws does he decide to step in and intervene. Then he prefers lawful alignments, that's still some preference.
Zandilar 06-24-07, 10:33 PM	Heya, I disagree. I don't view Ao as having a preference of any type of alignment. I view Ao as a being somewhat similar to the now dead Amaunator. A being of laws. Ao does not see good or evil, he sees laws. He does not care what a deity does as long as they are obeying the laws he has created which are rather loose to say the least. Only when a deity is breaking those laws does he decide to step in and intervene. Hmm... I think you missed the point I was making... I'll try again. If a being was going to try to twist Ao's rules... An evil being would twist them towards their own aims and towards their own empowerment. A good being would twist them to the benefit of everyone/the majority. If I were Ao, and accepting the fact that whoever I chose would almost invariably try to twist things to one degree or another, and I only had a choice between a Good being and an Evil being for control of the Weave, I'd much prefer a Good being in charge. A Good being is far less likely to come and bite me in the behind later. ;)
Alleran 06-25-07, 12:02 AM	They can promote any outlook and use of the Weave that they wish. Do not forget that Mystra is doing the same, especially if you read her dogma. "Do not treat magic as a weapon to reshape the world to your will." and "Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly..." are the two basic highlights from that. A deity that said the opposite would not get on Ao's bad side. The reason he was angry at Mystra in the beginning was because she was restricting access to the Weave. She is free to promote the use of it however she sees fit. Which is why I said "directing" rather than "having your own view that people are free to follow or ignore as they choose". In Crucible, Tempus pointed out that warlike spells (e.g. Fireball) were taking battle wizards twenty hours or so to memorise, forcing him to deliberately push people into actually warring amongst themselves to maintain the balance. Mystra is free to have her own position on magic and promote that as she chooses, but my point was that she isn't allowed to let that position influence the way she maintains the Weave, and the exact same thing would apply to an evil god if they had control of it. They can have their own position, but Ao won't let them be anything but impartial on who accesses the Weave.
souldnce9 06-25-07, 02:40 AM	Man this irks me to no end. I kept reading it in other quotes, and hoped that you'd said more to balance out such an ignorantly short sighted remark, but I was wrong I suppose. It was only ignorance this part of your post was filled with. I for one, and I know several other people I have gamed with who would agree, prefer playing a more self oriented, or "Evil" character. Their storyline tends to be better, more posibilities are open to them, and the concept of good is so horribly flawed it's not even funny. While I don't believe there can be any truly good characters, nor do I believe there are truly good people in reality, I have never gone out of my way to say something as immaturly pathetic as this. Not all Evil is played as the simmering fools they are made out to be in most novels. Just because some younger gamers prefer a munchkin approach, does not mean what they think is "Evil" is accurate. It is a sad enough state much of the game has come to, without people further perpetrating this stereo type. There are many here who I am sure have not only gamed for a long time, but also have played both sides of the coin, and still chosen to stay on the darker one. You in this one post have put yourself on the same level as children gaming thesedays IMO, and I now pity anyone you play PnP with, especially if you DM. :waits: Not that I agree with what was said, but I must disagree with you too. I have gamed for a long time, and have played both sides of the coin. My good characters usually have a much more indepth story. I rather enjoy playing my good characters much more than my evil ones. Infact I find playing evil characters much more dificult to play, and I get bored with them rather quickly. My group of six players tend to go towards good as well. I am by no means restrictive, but I must say I definately like the good side of the coin. My idea behind it is that the world is so full of evil as it is, that I like fantasizing about the good guys (non existant in real life :P ) coming to save the day. However, I am really enjoying my CN rogue, my current persona. :D The comment you were quoting is definately based in ignorance however.
Meldread 06-25-07, 03:37 AM	Dark Wizard- Then he prefers lawful alignments, that's still some preference. That's true. I can't imagine Ao has fond thoughts of Cyric. :P However, see below. Zandilar- If a being was going to try to twist Ao's rules... An evil being would twist them towards their own aims and towards their own empowerment. A good being would twist them to the benefit of everyone/the majority. If I were Ao, and accepting the fact that whoever I chose would almost invariably try to twist things to one degree or another, and I only had a choice between a Good being and an Evil being for control of the Weave, I'd much prefer a Good being in charge. I like to think of Ao as Toril's own Lady of Pain. You're free to do whatever you like. Even plot against me. (It is not like you'd actually win.) Just don't destroy my house. If you do. You are no longer welcome. As long as the existence of Toril itself is not threatened, Ao is very unlikely to step in and do anything at all. Ao could care less about the morals existing on Toril. Ao did not step in when Karsus decided to cast his little spell, but Ao may have had something to do with ensuring that Mystryl’s divine essence just "happened" to find the right individual. He likely knew the outcome and let it play out. I see Ao as omniscient when it comes to activities on Toril. He knows everything. He knows how things will play out. He cannot be defeated. The only two deities most likely to challenge Ao are Shar and Cyric. Both with different reasons. Jergal may have made the attempt in the past when he was Lawful Evil and much more powerful. His giving up of his portfolios to Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane may have had something to do with it. (After he was put in his place.) Like the Lady of Pain Ao is True Neutral. He does not favor one side or another. He does not favor law over chaos or good over evil. That makes him bias to one side or the other. He is utterly indifferent to it all. He is beyond mortal understanding. He exists for a reason. That is to keep Toril from being destroyed. As long as the existence of Toril is not threatened by a deities actions then he will not intervene. A Good being is far less likely to come and bite me in the behind later. Unless it's Lathander who might believe killing Ao and taking his place would be a good thing to do. :P Alleran- Mystra is free to have her own position on magic and promote that as she chooses, but my point was that she isn't allowed to let that position influence the way she maintains the Weave, and the exact same thing would apply to an evil god if they had control of it. They can have their own position, but Ao won't let them be anything but impartial on who accesses the Weave. I agree. That is why I believe an evil aligned deity of magic is possible. He or she would allow anyone to access the Weave, but promote the use of magic toward evil ends rather than good.
Zandilar 06-25-07, 03:50 AM	Heya, Meldread, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. In my opinion, Evil is far more likely to do something wildly destructive if they thought it would benefit them somehow, and certianly more likely to do something that would upset the balance, permanently. That's why a Good or Neutral matron of Magic is preferable, and that's probably why Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight has been CN, LN, and NG respectively. (And I still say the former two had good tendancies.)
Meldread 06-25-07, 04:53 AM	In my opinion, Evil is far more likely to do something wildly destructive if they thought it would benefit them somehow, and certianly more likely to do something that would upset the balance, permanently. I don't disagree with that statement. I just disagree that Ao cares one way or another. Like I said, I view Ao as Toril's version of the Lady of Pain, but more withdrawn and less direct. There is nothing that any deity could do that he would not foresee and could not fix. Anything that happens, be it done by mortal actions or divine, only happens because he allows it. He is simply beyond the concept of good and evil, law and chaos. He is True Neutral in the truest sense of the definition. Utterly and completely indifferent to all sides. After all, if he was not, the balance would be threatened.
Zandilar 06-25-07, 08:42 AM	Heya, I don't disagree with that statement. I just disagree that Ao cares one way or another. Like I said, I view Ao as Toril's version of the Lady of Pain, but more withdrawn and less direct. There is nothing that any deity could do that he would not foresee and could not fix. Anything that happens, be it done by mortal actions or divine, only happens because he allows it. He cares enough about the balance to cast down all deities (except Helm) when the Tablets of Fate were stolen. Therefore, in my opinion, he cares enough to chose somebeing he isn't going to have to clean up after. ;) I guess that's pretty much what I'm saying - a Neutral or Good Weave Guardian/Embodiment is less work for him. :)
XHereticX 06-25-07, 08:45 AM	That Zandilar, I don't disagree with. The reason why neutrality and good tend to gang up on evil is that good is far more likely to mind their own business and be far easier to work with than evil. Still, an evil patron of the weave would still have to grant magic to everyone, like good and neutral patron would, and if he does anything to really overstep his bounds, like directly disrupting or changing the balance of the Weave or Magic, Mr. I am all powerful Ao will come down and ground him. So with those limitations and fear in mind, I doubt an evil weave patron will do things too differently from a good or neutral one cept' have more evil chosen and promote magic for evil means more. And since when was the Lady of Pain a he? Plus, Ao has never been withdrawn and undirect. It seems like in every situation he seems to be sticking his nose here and there (Bane:"Yeah, I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasen't for that meddling Ao). Now The High God of Krynn, there is an uninvolved overdeity. His world was stolen once, nearly destroyed thrice, and messed up by the pantheon multiple times, and he still hasen't done anything:D .
Alediran 06-25-07, 09:42 AM	LE god controling the Weave = Magelords of Athalantar. Remember what happened to them? Some prince became a powerfull servant of the Lady of Mysteries and blasted them to oblivion with her help. A LE god of magic can't open magic for everybody, and if he does that then there will be so few spellcasters that he would be severly weakened. Portfolios who aren't inherently evil should never be given to evil gods, they can only do a good job of maintaining evil portfolios (tyranny, murder, strife, etc.) Never forget that NG Mystra was the one that created the non-lethal mageduels, to allow wizards the possibility of testing their powers without killing themselves in the process, that is good for magic because it encourages safe research. Mystra may be forced to act TN with regards of the weave, but nothing stops her of acting NG with her other portfolios. She changed the way that Magisters are chosen because the former way wasn't beneficial to the expansion of magic. And, while she can't directly interfere with a spellcaster she doesn't likes, she can send one of her Chosen to kill that spellcaster (there are always loopholes) @Meldread: Lady of Pain's ONLY stat was her alignment and she was stated as LN.
Soltares 06-25-07, 02:06 PM	A LE god of magic can't open magic for everybody, Whyever not? Would a LE diety be inherently weaker than a N or G aligned one? And if so, why? Talos, CE, doesn't seem to limit acts of destruction to those who share his alignment, nor does Selune refuse to shine on evil people. The portfolio the god administers seems to apply to all alignments equally, and, indeed, this is why Mystra 3.0 got slapped down by Ao, for attempting to impose her own morality on users of the Weave. I'd imagine that Myrkul would have been equally slapped down if he tried to only have death affect those of good alignment, and evil people be allowed to survive mortal wounds. The job is to administer the portfolio, not restrict it. Talona can't just snap her fingers and make all poison and disease only affect good aligned folk (well, she probably could, but Ao would be there with the paddle to admininster a course-correction) anymore than Lathandar can refuse to allow evil creatures to give birth to new evil creatures and doom them to swift extinction. A LE god of the Weave would be, as I understand it, every bit as much a god of the Weave as a LN or NG one. The moment that god attempted to impose their morality / ethics on the Weave, Ao would show up to say, 'Uh, no. Do your job or be replaced by someone who will...' Just because Umberlee is evil, doesn't mean that *the ocean* is evil, and just because Lathandar is good doesn't mean that *the sun* is good. The Weave is the Weave. It predates NG Mystra 3.0, and LN Mystra 2.0. It's the Weave of structured rational methodical Wizardly spellcasting, and passionate spontaneous off-the-cuff Sorcerous spellcasting, and evil Necromancy spells and Tainted/Corrupt magic and kindly Celestial/Exalted magic. Whether a spell is [Good], [Lawful], [Chaotic] or [Evil], it comes from the same source. The Weave that brings us Wild Magic zones (and empowers Wild Mage PrCs, and the Rod of Wonder) certainly isn't inherently Lawful, even if it's caretaker generally is, and the Weave that allows one to summon demons, flense the flesh from a man's bones, animate the corpses of the dead and suck another persons soul out and store it in a shiny gemstone isn't inherently Good, even if it's caretakers sometimes trend that way.
Alediran 06-25-07, 03:53 PM	The difference Soltares, is that while Mystra doesn't directly controls who has access to magic and who doesn't (and even with that limit spells after ToT became less destructive, she created the Mageduel, something that no LE god of magic would create and changed the way the Magister is elected), her agents can and there is no god who could cry to AO if Mystra's mortal agents start killing all evil spellcasters. The same can be applied to an evil god of magic, the god himself would be limited, but his agents can hoard magic for themselves and close it's access by not allowing people outside their control the possibility of learning magic, that is what happened in Athalantar while Elminster was but an adolescent.
Meldread 06-25-07, 04:26 PM	Alediran- You're forgetting one small little fact. A LE God of the Weave STILL gets his power from the spread of magic. Just ask the Simbul how that works and how Mystra feels about the Red Wizards. ;) It's true that his servants would most likely take a bend toward evil, but really isn't that the problem everyone has with the current Mystra? All her servants tend toward the good side of things, and she promotes a certain moral outlook on magic. A LE deity of the Weave would be under the same restrictions, but would promote a different moral outlook, and have servants that tend to the evil side of things. I guess you somewhat get a glimpse of what the opponents of current NG Mystra are thinking/feeling when you consider an evil deity of the Weave. ;)
Zandilar 06-25-07, 07:24 PM	Heya, It's true that his servants would most likely take a bend toward evil, but really isn't that the problem everyone has with the current Mystra? All her servants tend toward the good side of things, and she promotes a certain moral outlook on magic. A LE deity of the Weave would be under the same restrictions, but would promote a different moral outlook, and have servants that tend to the evil side of things. And there's your problem, right there. Evil is selfish, while Good is selfless. Evil doesn't seem to be the best alignment for promoting the free use of magic, since Evil would far rather restrict magic to themselves so they have a way of oppressing, hurting, and killing others without retalliation. So in some ways, the portfolio and responsibilities of Mystra and her Chosen could be seen to be inherantly Good. (I am not saying it is, I am just saying it could be seen that way!)
Karsus the Mad 06-25-07, 08:02 PM	The greatest evil is at the heart of those that foolishly think they are good. I don't care of mechanics or preconcieved notions of the "creator", good has done the greatest evil, and is in of itself the very definition of evil.
BrennonGoldeye 06-25-07, 08:06 PM	:thinks: I agree with all of the above as long as you replace the word "good" with the word "law". ;)
Dark Wizard 06-25-07, 08:06 PM	Well, aren't we cynical, though I suppose that comes with being one-third of the greatest archwizard. :D
Karsus the Mad 06-25-07, 08:11 PM	Well, aren't we cynical, though I suppose that comes with being one-third of the greatest archwizard. :D Actually, it comes from being beaten in the head by a drunk *******. I'm very ****** off at the moment. I'm seriously getting ****** off at getting my ass kicked for being a foreigner.....just upset...sorry:D
BrennonGoldeye 06-25-07, 08:16 PM	Everyone back away slowly. It's for your own protection, I promise. I'll send in the potions to him after a bit.
Meldread 06-25-07, 09:12 PM	And there's your problem, right there. Evil is selfish, while Good is selfless. Evil doesn't seem to be the best alignment for promoting the free use of magic, since Evil would far rather restrict magic to themselves so they have a way of oppressing, hurting, and killing others without retalliation. The Red Wizards spread magic freely throughout the Realm's. They are considered evil. An evil deity would promote the spread of magic for purely selfish reasons, because his/her power is tied directly to how many people are using the Weave. I imagine an evil deity of the Weave trying to spread as much magic as possible, and encouraging the advancement of magic in ways never before seen. Many of the best technological advances come from war and an evil deity of magic would certainly push wizards in that direction. I would actually foresee magic becoming even more prevalent on both sides. In fact, an evil deity of magic just might be Tempus' best friend - because the more wars that are fought using magic, the more powerful the guardian of the Weave grows. I do not think Ao is biased toward one side or another. Believing that completely shoots the concept the reason Ao exists in the first place in the foot, making his very existence a threat to the balance. (And therefore by his own laws he should destroy himself.)
souldnce9 06-26-07, 12:00 AM	True Neutral!!!! Why does the god of magic have to be good or evil?
Zevox 06-26-07, 12:10 AM	"Have to be"? She doesn't. Shes just a hell of lot more interesting that way. :) Zevox
Cadrio 06-26-07, 02:58 AM	Well i came up with my idea for the campaign. My chosen pcs are being instructed by their deities to kill Mystra's chosen, now my pcs have made some pretty strong characters and i thinhk they might stand a chance against the chosen of Mystra. If they succeed Shar and Velsharoon will help the pcs destroy Mystra and therefore Velsharoon will be the new controller of the weave
Cryto 06-26-07, 03:28 AM	Open God conflicts are forbidden? I think they are but not sure. Plus even they come to idea to attack Mystra herself there are several things you should consider: - Azuth and Savras won't just stay and watch Mystra being attacked - if they are Weave users they should go to Shadow Weave - Mystra's statistics with salient divine abilities should be included (Instant Counterspell!!!) - Other alliances like Selune (for sure if Shar is included) and racial deities of Magic (Corellon Larethian, Deep Sashelas, Hanali Celanil and maybe Isis) PS: I hate Lady of Mysteries myself, more than anything but she is too powerful for open attacks :(
Alleran 06-26-07, 03:32 AM	All her servants tend toward the good side of things, and she promotes a certain moral outlook on magic. I think my point earlier was partially directed at that. I don't see it as a problem, and don't really understand why it is one in the first place. Of course she promotes a certain moral outlook on what magic should be used for. Shar promotes her own moral outlook on what magic should be used for as well, but I don't think anybody really complains about her doing that, so why apply different standards to Mystra? In fact, an evil deity of magic just might be Tempus' best friend - because the more wars that are fought using magic, the more powerful the guardian of the Weave grows. That might upset the Balance, though, because while war would become much more prevalent, as would war-based magic, magic that doesn't come from war would be marginalised, creating an imbalance that Ao would be obliged to fix. Why does the god of magic have to be good or evil? She doesn't. She just has to be TN in the way she administers her portfolio.
Zandilar 06-26-07, 04:04 AM	Heya, I think my point earlier was partially directed at that. I don't see it as a problem, and don't really understand why it is one in the first place. Of course she promotes a certain moral outlook on what magic should be used for. Shar promotes her own moral outlook on what magic should be used for as well, but I don't think anybody really complains about her doing that, so why apply different standards to Mystra? Because Shar is Eeeeeeeeeebil... :rolleyes: Eeeeeeeebil is Good you know. Better than Good even. :raincloud Anyway, getting back on track... Meldread, I still think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. If anyone will upset Ao's precious balance, it will be an Evil Magic deity. As for Thay... There's that big ol' CAVEAT EMPTOR sign that blinks in neon letters 70ft high when dealing with their mercantile endevors. Yes, they're spreading magic, but there is a huge catch to this. This is why Mystra isn't simply leaving them alone - she might have told the Simbul not to kill Red Wizards, but she did ask her, and Eliminster, to meddle and prod, to encourage some things, while nipping other things in the bud, and otherwise gently guide them in the direction that she wants them to go in (the spread of magic for magic's sake, not for any other reason). The Thavians definitely have alterior motives to their current move into the mercantile. They aren't doing it because they want everyone to have access to magic and magical items. They want to control who has access to what, and ultimately use that to manipulate their "friends" and enemies alike. There is a reason why Thayvian enclaves aren't welcome everywhere. They're really two faced. Over the counter they sell low level magical trinkets and knicknacks, but under the counter they also sell drugs of addiction (without telling people they're addictive), poisions, and other not-so-nice items.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-26-07, 11:08 AM	How about instead of killing Mystra flat out you destroy Toril, or at least forever casting it into darkness. :raincloud It's been done before your PCs may beable to do it again, eclipse Toril forever. Shortly after the sun is removed from Toril crops will fail famine, pestilence, war and death will soon follow. The drow will return to the surface and their will be utter chaos. :evillaugh With most surface life dead or dying Mystra's power will be diminished do to a lack of living followers. She may be weak enough to snipe out then. Or you could create a giant spiral burst bottle and drop it on Toril(instant black hole).:bump: Your PCs can always retreat to another plane.
GeorgeZimmerAssuresThee 06-26-07, 05:14 PM	Find Ao, take 20 on a diplomacy check with him to convince him that mystra needs to be "removed". I gurantee it
Zsych 06-26-07, 08:10 PM	I would think that a good diety is as likely to go against freedom of choice as an evil diety. Both have their own views of how things should be. The evil one on the other hand, is more likely to be focussed on his own greatness than caring what other people are doing. Put Larloch as Guardian of the Weave, and most likely nothing bad will happen(although, occasional mortals may die in experiments... but that can happen now too) ... I seriously doubt that any Toril-ean god is ever going to become a significant threat to someone who can casually take away their powers. (unless he is to Ao, what Karsus was to Mystryl) -- As for Ao being TN. I wouldn't think that a high level god has to have any specific alignment.. but he shouldn't be expected to care about minor issues either. He plays the game on a different level usually.
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:11 PM	:thinks: I agree with all of the above as long as you replace the word "good" with the word "law". ;) Good and law...That is my new favorite oxymoron:)
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 09:18 PM	Good and law...That is my new favorite oxymoron:) True true. Just don't proclaim it to loudly at our next meeting with the Tyrian embassy. The Loxo always hang out there, we don't need any more trouble with them.;)
Zandilar 06-27-07, 07:15 AM	Heya, I would think that a good diety is as likely to go against freedom of choice as an evil diety. Both have their own views of how things should be. The evil one on the other hand, is more likely to be focussed on his own greatness than caring what other people are doing. Except Mystra has already flirted with that and got smacked by Ao rather hard. She has since changed her ways... Do you think an Evil deity would learn that lesson?
XHereticX 06-27-07, 08:02 AM	Heya, Except Mystra has already flirted with that and got smacked by Ao rather hard. She has since changed her ways... Do you think an Evil deity would learn that lesson? Yes, if it means for his/her own self-preservation. Evil may be ambitious, but it is not stupid.
ShadezofDis 06-27-07, 11:20 AM	Mystryl was either caught by surprise by Karsus' Avatar or it's a deeper game than was let on (ie. she knew about KA but chose to let it happen because of X, Y or Z) I'm not sure it's been proven that the Shadow Weave could support epic magic. We do not know the nature of Mystra's ban upon true 10+ level magic. AFAIK, the Weave is not magic, the Weave is the filter that allows people to use magic safely, otherwise no mortal could really safely cast any magic. This also applies to the Gods, however the Gods can use magic without the Weave, we don't know what Gods may know this skill (because once the Weave came into being it made magic both easier and safer, thus using "true magic" wouldn't have much of an appeal) Just as a general note, if you're trying to take down a god then you need to get the god away from their home plane. Trying to take down a god in their seat of power SHOULD be suicidal.
Marshal.Nemesis 06-27-07, 11:26 AM	Hmmm...if you want to destroy mystra..i dont advise a direct approach because PROBABLY!!!! it will have a result of defeat..but if you write your scenario through Elminster or shadow weave..and perhaps a little help of szass tam (red wizos) and of course direct support of demons and devils..and the most importantly the lich god who wants to replace mystra(i think its name vas...valsharoon..)they may have a slight chance..and a fools hope...i will look forward for the result..:)
Zandilar 06-27-07, 06:31 PM	Heya, Just as a general note, if you're trying to take down a god then you need to get the god away from their home plane. Trying to take down a god in their seat of power SHOULD be suicidal. Except it's long been held that the seat of a deity's power is the only place they can be permanently destroyed.
XHereticX 06-27-07, 06:36 PM	Heya, Except it's long been held that the seat of a deity's power is the only place they can be permanently destroyed. coughAvatarIncidentcough
Karsus the Mad 06-27-07, 06:43 PM	Heya, Except it's long been held that the seat of a deity's power is the only place they can be permanently destroyed. As XHerieicX said... It's a long held belief that that's the case, but pretty much everything else dictates otherwise. Deities die rather easier when they're away from their homeplane.
BrennonGoldeye 06-27-07, 10:02 PM	As XHerieicX said... It's a long held belief that that's the case, but pretty much everything else dictates otherwise. Deities die rather easier when they're away from their homeplane. Hmm. Remove AO. Then it seems to be exactly as Zandilar stated. At least by Deities&Demigods and F&P. Note that removing a Deities influence(thus "killing" it as far as the CS is concerned) is another matter. Two different stages of death. :)
Zandilar 06-27-07, 11:46 PM	Heya, Hmm. Remove AO. Then it seems to be exactly as Zandilar stated. At least by Deities&Demigods and F&P. Note that removing a Deities influence(thus "killing" it as far as the CS is concerned) is another matter. Two different stages of death. :) Thank you. :) That's pretty much exactly the thing that came to mind when I saw XHereticX having a coughing fit. ;) :D :P The Avatar Incident was precipitated and ended by Ao. It was Ao who stripped the deities and locked them in Avatar forms - had the gods all come down in their Avatar forms without Ao doing what he did, none of the gods who died would have actually died. Even so, not every deity who "died" during the Time of Troubles stayed dead. Torm immediately springs to mind.
cato 06-28-07, 08:21 AM	There is a psionic artifact, the annulus, which if broken can kill deities if i recall. Other ways to kill her: Somehow get chantea to attack her straight on, since she has higher divine rank she would be immune to all of mystra's attacks and eventually kill her. Find a way to kill thousands of her lower level followers, that way her divine rank will plummet and she will be much easier to kill. Btw someone mentioned azmodeus is easier to replace with a halfling than kill mystra, thats BS, asmodeus along with another being are way more powerful than any sphere god like mystra. They are beyond followers and the only thing more powerful than them is probably the lady of pain (and nothing is known about this beeing)
Red_Wizard 06-28-07, 08:29 AM	I believe the Annulus is only bane to Psionics, but I'll have to check for sure when I'm home. To the which is greater point, Mystra is easily the more powerful being between herself and Asmodeus. Don't get me wrong, he is a veritable powerhouse in himself, but he relies on souls to fuel his power, and is still but a Devil, no matter how godlike. Mystra however IS magic incarnate, and a divine being. Getting in close to destroy Asmodeus is far more likely than doing so with the goddes of magic. Especially with allies like Azuth, and Savras the all seeing kicking around for her side ;). Granted though I wouldn't say halfling, when it comes to ease of replacement comparably. Perhaps a large child, or a manikin ;):P.
cato 06-28-07, 08:37 AM	I believe the Annulus is only bane to Psionics, but I'll have to check for sure when I'm home. To the which is greater point, Mystra is easily the more powerful being between herself and Asmodeus. Don't get me wrong, he is a veritable powerhouse in himself, but he relies on souls to fuel his power, and is still but a Devil, no matter how godlike. ;):P. I am sorry but you have not done your homework properly, if you look into asmodeus you will see that he is actually a severely more powerful being that is just posing as a devil and using souls to heal some of his wounds (which he got by fighting the ultimate good beeing) Mystra is not even a speck of dust in front of Asmodeus (I will look up his real name for you)
Alediran 06-28-07, 08:41 AM	Other ways to kill her: Somehow get chantea to attack her straight on, since she has higher divine rank she would be immune to all of mystra's attacks and eventually kill her. Having more DvR doesn't means that you are immune to another deities powers. And Chauntea is one of the least likely gods who would attack Mystra, she needs her or life in Faerūn would cease to exist. Find a way to kill thousands of her lower level followers, that way her divine rank will plummet and she will be much easier to kill. Lower lever followers are the ones who give her the least quantity of divine power, its the creation and casting of spells what gives her the good stuff, and low level wizards don't usually create spells, thats the work of high level wizards who, if they planned good contingencies like a clone, are almost immortal. It's a proven fact that worship is only a small part of their Divine Power, otherwise, Lolth would never have done what she did in WotSQ. Btw someone mentioned azmodeus is easier to replace with a halfling than kill mystra, thats BS, asmodeus along with another being are way more powerful than any sphere god like mystra. They are beyond followers and the only thing more powerful than them is probably the lady of pain (and nothing is known about this beeing) By stats, Asmodeus could be obliterated with a 30th lvl party, Mystra can't. And we know of something about the Lady, she is LN.
cato 06-28-07, 08:50 AM	Having more DvR doesn't means that you are immune to another deities powers. And Chauntea is one of the least likely gods who would attack Mystra, she needs her or life in Faerūn would cease to exist. Lower lever followers are the ones who give her the least quantity of divine power, its the creation and casting of spells what gives her the good stuff, and low level wizards don't usually create spells, thats the work of high level wizards who, if they planned good contingencies like a clone, are almost immortal. It's a proven fact that worship is only a small part of their Divine Power, otherwise, Lolth would never have done what she did in WotSQ. By stats, Asmodeus could be obliterated with a 30th lvl party, Mystra can't. And we know of something about the Lady, she is LN. I cant give you a quote right now but those stats dont represent a fraction of what asmodeus is, looking at all the sources on him you will see that he is one of the two prime serpents of the universe, the only reason he is receiving faith right now (from all the material planes not just one plane like mystra-FR) is to heal his wounds after tha battle with his "good" counterpart made him fall. The balance of the multiverse atm (not just a mere plane like FR) hangs party in his action, while mystra's role is puny in comparison. The only thing a 30 lvl party would manage to do is destroy some sort of fake manifestation of a fake devil projected by the evil serpent, but in all likelihood they would never even get near him. As for divine power, its not relative to the person who gives it, its relative to the number of followers you have, - faith you receive and I havent seen anything to state the contrary. I agree that chauntea would not really turn against mystra, but in case she did, her divine shield would make her immune to all attacks by mystra while mystra's wouldnt. As for the annulus, using the one year ability does only refer to psionic beings, but when it comes to destroying deities + the artifact itself it does not clarify type so It would seem to mean anything. I am not certain of this however.
Zandilar 06-28-07, 09:00 AM	Heya, Here's a curious thing I've noticed... A number of people seem to be treating Mystra in isolation. They don't seem to think that her Chosen or her allies would lift a finger to help her. Even if it were possible to kill Mystra one-on-party, that party would first have to deal with her Chosen, Azuth, Savras, Oghma, Denier, Milil, Corellon Larethian, Isis, and Thoth. Also quite possibly Selune and Kelemvor as well. Even if they do somehow manage to neturalize all of Mystra's allies (and quite possibly her allies' allies - I can easily see several other deities who might be interested in preserving the current Mystra), then they might even have to deal with such entities as Velsharoon, Talos, Shar, and any other deity who might have a vested interest in assuming Mystra's portfolio once she's dead. And if the party managed to overcome all of that and still kill Mystra - Ao would have the final say.
Zandilar 06-28-07, 09:02 AM	Heya, As for divine power, its not relative to the person who gives it, its relative to the number of followers you have, - faith you receive and I havent seen anything to state the contrary. If this were actually true, then Mystra wouldn't be even as half as powerful as she is. Deities also gain power from their portfolio - so anyone casting a spell by using the Weave gives Mystra power, no matter who they actually worship.
Alediran 06-28-07, 09:04 AM	As for divine power, its not relative to the person who gives it, its relative to the number of followers you have, - faith you receive and I havent seen anything to state the contrary. If that would be true, then Lolth should have ben weakened during WotSQ, not strenghtened. Worship is only a part of the gods power, they must also spread their portfolios to gain power (it was said many times by WotC developers on these boards), that is why every single spell cast or researched gives Mystra more power, and Higher level casters cast more spells per day and develop more spells than lower level casters.
cato 06-28-07, 09:11 AM	If that would be true, then Lolth should have ben weakened during WotSQ, not strenghtened. Worship is only a part of the gods power, they must also spread their portfolios to gain power (it was said many times by WotC developers on these boards), that is why every single spell cast or researched gives Mystra more power, and Higher level casters cast more spells per day and develop more spells than lower level casters. Lolth unlike mystra is not a Sphere god, it is worshiped on other planes as well. As for the other part of the discussion is kinda pointless since we dont know exactly how much relative power followers/portfolio advancement gives. It is certain though that by killing of throngs of her lower lvl followers she would lose some rank, if not a lot.
Soltares 06-28-07, 11:40 AM	The # of worshippers = power thing doesn't seem to work terribly well for Realms dieties. Mystra, for all her popularity with 30th level Wizards, doesn't have half the churches and worshippers that Tymora has, and yet Mystra is much more powerful, so much so that she has had to squirrel away extra power in a dozen or so 'Chosen' and a 'Magister' just so that the other gods don't get jealous. I suspect that if *nobody* worshipped Mystra, and all she did was sit like a spider in her Weave, not anwering the god-phone, she'd still be as powerful, much like that *other* powerful god who doesn't speak to worshippers or have temples or any of that noise, that Ao person, who is the most powerful and least worshipped god ever... Torm has more and larger churches listed than Tempus, also is less powerful, despite being more popular. He does, however, have a more restrictive portfolio, and so, has only a subset of Tempus' power. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a worshipper of Tyr in a setting product (I'm sure there are some out there, I just don't remember them!), and yet he's also a more powerful god than the *vastly* more popular Tymora or Torm. Kossuth, who actually has some temples and worshippers in Thay, is on a level with Istishia, Akadi and the earth-dude whose name isn't Grome anymore (Grumbar?), despite them having few, if any, temples listed in the various products. Most of the Realms dieties seem to derive power from their portfolios, which is how dieties like Talos or Garagos or (formerly) Myrkul survive, with few, if any, temples or worshippers listed. Meanwhile, Bane, who has a machine somewhere that pumps out endless disposable faceless Zhents (who, sadly, have a lifespan measured in seconds from their first appearance, and *obviously* can't be recruited from anywhere, since nobody on the planet would willingly volunteer for the job of being sword-fodder #5729 for the biggest organizational failure on Toril), isn't omnipotent, which, given the number of Zhents that have lived and died in the novels, he should be. If number of worshippers correlated to divine power, Gruumsh and Maglubiyet also should be nearly omnipotent, as all of those Orc and Goblin worshippers crank them through the roof, while the Elven gods, saddled with a slow-breeding and slowly-dying-out race, scream, 'help me, help me, I'm shrinking, I'm shrinking!' and fall over, their feet curling up like those of a dying insect. And the Gnomish gods? They'd be about as powerful as Quasits, since there are like 20 Gnomes in the Realms, and nobody can find them... :)
BrennonGoldeye 06-28-07, 12:11 PM	asmodeus. Let's just leave :devil: alone. He isn't Mystra, and He isn't a God. He's also not very destructable. ;) The God's in the FR are the "Personification" of Their portfolio. Every person who falls in love strengthens Sune, and there isn't a frikin thing that can be done about it. Except stop all love. How many other Deities would come to Her aid if that was attempted? Hmm. Worship isn't just kneeling at an alter. Tempus DR17. Worship is every whispered prayer to Tempus on a battlefield.:fight!: Mystra DR18. Worship is calling upon the Weave to form your will into reality. :mage: Umberlee DR12. Worship is pitching the Tormite over the side when caught in an unholy hurricane. ;)
Red_Wizard 06-28-07, 12:50 PM	I am sorry but you have not done your homework properly, if you look into asmodeus you will see that he is actually a severely more powerful being that is just posing as a devil and using souls to heal some of his wounds (which he got by fighting the ultimate good beeing) Mystra is not even a speck of dust in front of Asmodeus (I will look up his real name for you) Well I could go off on any number of tangents with this one-- as I'm sure many are well aware I tend to do when people post like this-- but instead I ask you "oh all knowing" cato, to please point out how I am wrong here. Clearly my "homework" is lacking, when compared to your unquestionable knowledge on this matter, so I humbly await your insightful updates on the situation. p.s. Don't argue "because I said so", as you did when it was pointed out his stats are of low enough level to be beaten. I am more than sure that you yourself, are basing your entire argument on Mystra's weak stats from F&P, so what goes for one, goes for both. Just a note before you begin. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 06-28-07, 01:09 PM	:eek:
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 05:16 PM	are basing your entire argument on Mystra's weak stats from F&P, As sad as it is, that is Mystra (well, before I updated her for my own FR):eek:
cato 06-28-07, 06:42 PM	p.s. Don't argue "because I said so", as you did when it was pointed out his stats are of low enough level to be beaten. I am more than sure that you yourself, are basing your entire argument on Mystra's weak stats from F&P, so what goes for one, goes for both. Just a note before you begin. ;) For starters, it is mentioned on demon aspects that when you actually make the demon or higher lvl aspects, you can represent them in a way that suits the power levels of your campaign. For one, isnt it kinda silly to admit that any deities or devils power is that which is shown in its stat block? If that were the case your average min maxed adventurer of a lower level can kick the ass of all the main heroes in a campaign setting (elminster simbul tam etc) No, the actual power of those characters stems from the lore of each campaign. It is already insinuated in BoVD, that Asmodeus is the prime evil force of the multiverse. In another source it is mentioned that there was a battle between the two major serpents (symbol kinda like biting each other's tail) at this cataclysmic battle the serpent which represents evil lost and fell injured at the lower planes. Then you have asmodeus living on a huge ravine/crack in the foundation of the 9th layer... Its pretty elementary. Generally, do you find it logical to compare gods confined to one of the thousands of material planes who are confined to that plane, with beings which are the heads of the multiverse? Tbh the only being I am really confused with is the lady of pain, for whom I cant seem to find any information..
Zandilar 06-28-07, 07:03 PM	Heya, For starters, it is mentioned on demon aspects that when you actually make the demon or higher lvl aspects, you can represent them in a way that suits the power levels of your campaign. For one, isnt it kinda silly to admit that any deities or devils power is that which is shown in its stat block? If that were the case your average min maxed adventurer of a lower level can kick the ass of all the main heroes in a campaign setting (elminster simbul tam etc) You pretty much say that the power level of Archdevils and Demon Lords should be scaled to the Campaign Setting. This means that one DM can make Asmodeus beatable by a level 30 party, while another DM can make him powerful enough to smack Ao around. I agree that the stats presented in books are silly. But that equally applies to stats presented for the gods. Not everyone thinks Mystra's stats are fair, and I'm one of them. She's not powerful enough. No, the actual power of those characters stems from the lore of each campaign. It is already insinuated in BoVD, that Asmodeus is the prime evil force of the multiverse. I don't even know where to start with this... Okay, BoVD is not concidered Core, and it's not canon Realms material. It is also one of the most ridiculed and mocked book of the Dungeons and Dragons franchise (at least from my reading). Generally, do you find it logical to compare gods confined to one of the thousands of material planes who are confined to that plane, with beings which are the heads of the multiverse? Yes, I do. A god is a god is a god. They are supposed to be more powerful than anything else. I personally think the whole idea of anthropomorphized planes to be annoying and illogical - which is essentially what your "heads of the multiverse" are. If they're so immensely powerful, why are there gods at all? Tbh the only being I am really confused with is the lady of pain, for whom I cant seem to find any information.. The best information you'll find on her is that her alignment is LN, and that she somehow blocks deities from getting to Sigil. Yes, she's probably hugely powerful - but her power is probably severely limited (like to Sigil itself).
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:38 PM	Heya, Thank you. :) That's pretty much exactly the thing that came to mind when I saw XHereticX having a coughing fit. ;) :D :P The Avatar Incident was precipitated and ended by Ao. It was Ao who stripped the deities and locked them in Avatar forms - had the gods all come down in their Avatar forms without Ao doing what he did, none of the gods who died would have actually died. Even so, not every deity who "died" during the Time of Troubles stayed dead. Torm immediately springs to mind. Hey, don't make fun of me just because I had a case of namonia:mad: Yeah, I agree with you for the most part. That is how it SHOULD work according to the rules. But then again, authors don't (and shoudn't) go by the gaming rules all the time and allow their creativity to be hampered, they manage to find ways to kill deities in the most screwball ways. Plus deities should be near-invincible on their home planes as well. But we have mere mortals like Finder Wyvernspur and the Dead Three as mortals killing deities on their home planes don't we? Nothing is set constant Zandilar.
Zsych 06-29-07, 02:45 AM	The concept of having a more limited portfolio has inspired me. Perhaps Mystra is powerful because, although magic is just a word to us, its actually a huge thing. Especially on Toril, where you have all manner of magical creatures too that may be contributing to Mystra in some way. ... Not that I think that Mystra being the Weave, she should have any shortage of power. I would actually expect the major portion of her power to not be godly power, but rather power derived from magic and the Weave. Having control over the Weave, she should have tremendously powerful, even if she was only a normal human. It should be like having a monstrously powerful artifact on hand. --- As for Finder killing Moander. I think my suggestion that the word 'god' be considered a generalization like the word 'animal' is probably reasonable. There are different types of gods, with different strengths and weaknesses, and also some common godly attributes that make them gods. Superman, for all his power, gets taken down by Kryptonite... which is no more than a rock to normal humans. If you know the nature of the god(or need to know it for a story/campaign), then that knowledge and knowledge of weaknesses through it, might well make a lot of difference.
cato 06-29-07, 04:34 AM	Heya, You pretty much say that the power level of Archdevils and Demon Lords should be scaled to the Campaign Setting. This means that one DM can make Asmodeus beatable by a level 30 party, while another DM can make him powerful enough to smack Ao around. I agree that the stats presented in books are silly. But that equally applies to stats presented for the gods. Not everyone thinks Mystra's stats are fair, and I'm one of them. She's not powerful enough. Yes, I do. A god is a god is a god. They are supposed to be more powerful than anything else. as someone else said already, gods are powerful in their home planes/spheres they influence. I don't even know where to start with this... Okay, BoVD is not concidered Core, and it's not canon Realms material. It is also one of the most ridiculed and mocked book of the Dungeons and Dragons franchise (at least from my reading). I agree that bovd does have a lot of shortcomings, but the lore stated in it is as valid as deities and demigods (which btw has tons of errors on all sorts of mythologies) I personally think the whole idea of anthropomorphized planes to be annoying and illogical - which is essentially what your "heads of the multiverse" are. If they're so immensely powerful, why are there gods at all? Even a normal Archdevil demands the gods respect, Asmodeus is far more than just that. Archdevils and gods are two different things. One is based on sphere faith and specific portfolio promotion, the others ascend through hierarchy/conflict promotion of general values like law/evil axis, and are not dependent on one sphere or plane, they span the multiverse. The best information you'll find on her is that her alignment is LN, and that she somehow blocks deities from getting to Sigil. Yes, she's probably hugely powerful - but her power is probably severely limited (like to Sigil itself).[/QUOTE] Well I have come to a lot of probables too, but as it is probable that she is limited, it is exactly as probable that she wields immense power far beyond any god. But I guess we wont know until something is printed on her. I think that there is a book called the pages of pain, but its format makes it difficult to read and reach conclusions.
Zsych 06-29-07, 06:28 AM	Oh Pages of Pain, I expected much from it, after hearing that it was related to Planescape - Torment(and having loved the game)...... --- btw, the latest info on Asmodeus that I know of, says that the guy was originally an angel in service to gods, eventually fighting evil for a long time, he became corrupted, and eventually became what he is today.. cheating his former masters out of control over evil souls. The part that ends with his saying to the gods who question his methods, and what he is becoming... "Read the fine print", leaving the gods unable to do anything because he didn't violate the contract they had signed. ... I actually think Asmodeus should now be more powerful than most greater gods, but thats just my opinion. @Zandilar: Now that I recall, I don't think Ao did anything to Mystra when she was messing up magic. The other gods decided that she was messing things up and needed to be demoted(and I think that if she'd been more competant with her powers, they may not have had so much luck forcing her even then). And eventually it was that desert harper woman that showed Mystra the error of her ways, rather than anything said by Ao.
Alediran 06-29-07, 08:49 AM	HONESTLY..YOU PEOPLE ARE REALLY SAD. YOU TAKE THIS GAME WAY TO SERIOUS. SOME OF YOU ANSWER POST LIKE YOU ARE THE "FITCTIONAL" CHARACTERS THEMSELVES (REMEMBER THEY ARE NOT REAL AND YOU ARE NOT THEM) SOME OF YOU GET HARD ONS TRYING TO PROVE YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT FR THAN OTHER (SO PATHETIC) AND OTHERS WHO CHEER FOR THE BAD GUYS...REALLY COME ON NOW...WERE YOU THE NERD OR WEIRD FREAK IN SCHOOL THAT GOT PICKED ON AND THIS IS HOW YOU TAKE IT OUT ON "FICTIONAL" PEOPLE OR THE SAD SOULS ON HERE? I BET 90% OF YOU WERE THOSE NERDS, WEIRDOS AND FREAKS (PROBABLY MOST OF YOU STILL ARE). ALSO MORE THAN HALF OF YOU ARE PROBABLY STILL VIRGINS...EITHER PIMPLE FACED GEEKS OR 40 YEAR OLDS STILL LIVING IN MOMS BASEMENT. NO WONDER WHY PEOPLE LOOK AT D&D WITH SUCH DISDAIN...YOU PEOPLE GIVE IT A BAD IMAGE.... REMEMBER ITS FOR ENTERTAINMENT...ITS A GREAT GAME BUT ITS NOT REAL...:invasion: OF THE NERDS GET A LIFE!!!! Allow me to be the first :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You don't have the least clue about this board's style of posting and you should be reading for some time before daring to post here. Unless you are what you accuse us of being, after all, like is said in my country: a thief belives all are like him. BTW, CAPS LOCKED text is against the CoC, don't make me summon the Wizos.
Zandilar 06-29-07, 09:24 AM	Heya, Hey, don't make fun of me just because I had a case of namonia:mad: :D Seriously, though, having had pneumonia once, I know it's no joking matter. People die from it quite regularly. I probably should have been hospitalized, but managed somehow to escape that. Nothing is set constant Zandilar. Oh, I'm quite aware of that. Still, all the examples you gave show that mortals don't defeat deities regularly, and when they do, it's rarely without assistance of some kind. Finder had Tymora's assistance with a somewhat weakened Moander. We don't have anything other than myths regarding the dead three, and even the myth says that Jergal gave them his power, not that they actually defeated him with fistycuffs. Bane, Myrkyl, and Bhaal all died during the Time of Troubles because of what Ao had done to all deities - so Cyric and Midnight at least were assisted by Ao himself... Mystra was killed by Helm, and not just some mortal. (Oh, and Karsus didn't kill Mystryl, Mystryl killed Mystryl.)
Zsych 06-30-07, 03:59 AM	Well Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal did kill some mud god or some such as a test from Jergal. Could hardly have had much support if it was a test.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 04:18 AM	Well Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal did kill some mud god or some such as a test from Jergal. Could hardly have had much support if it was a test. except for the fact that he gave bane the one weapon that could do it.