Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fillow 04-09-07, 02:41 PM	I have just begun the Double Diamond saga but I cannot find the country, which is talking about on the Faerūn Map : Doegan. Does some one know where it is please? Thanks a lot.
TomCosta 04-09-07, 04:40 PM	First the Double Diamond saga is non-canon just as an FYI. That said, the Utter East is located in the far SE of Faerun (SE of Durpar and Var and S of Ulgarthdt [sp?]), just north of Zakhara/Al-Qadim, and on the E side of the mountains in the far SW of Kara-Tur.
Old Sage 04-09-07, 08:13 PM	It would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. WotC tell us that when the timeline reaches 1377 DR, some form of those novels will become canon. The only places to discuss the Utter East were Faces of the Deception and the "Double Diamond" saga. Additionally, the 1e FR boxed set has some minor references. As does the The Shining South [FR16].
Old Sage 04-09-07, 08:13 PM	And here's a little from Tom Costa, collated from both WotC and Candlekeep - "The Utter East appeared in the non-canon Double Diamond series of mini-novels and the canon Faces of Deception novel (who's main characters were given 2E stats in Dragon sometime back). The Kingdoms lie just south of Ulgarth (see FR16 Shining South and the 3E Shining South) and north of Zakhara (the Al-Qadim setting). Essentially, the natives have a mythical (Asian) Indian culture that was conquered by a mixed group of Northmen and Ffolk arcane casters. The Five Kingdoms fell to warring with one another using these giant magical gates called Blood Forges that brought in a lot of fiends. To recreate it, I'd start with the 3E Oriental Adventures web enhancement Mahasarpa." and - "Further south and off the 3E map, the Utter East is populated by an Asian Indian-esque culture dominated by emigrated Northmen and Ffolk from the Moonshaes." and - "Faces of Deception began in Erlkazar and traveled to the Utter East, which is located just north of Zakhara in that wedge of land that seperates Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara Tur. The Utter East, however, was on the W portion of that bit of land and clearly more influenced by Faerun than the other contintinents. It most definitely did not end up in Kara Tur." and - "The Kingdoms lie just south of Ulgarth (see FR16 Shining South and the 3E Shining South) and north of Zakhara (the Al-Qadim setting). Essentially, the natives have a mythical (Asian) Indian culture that was conquered by a mixed group of Northmen and Ffolk arcane casters. The Five Kingdoms fell to warring with one another using these giant magical gates called Blood Forges that brought in a lot of fiends. To recreate it, I'd start with the 3E Oriental Adventures web enhancement Mahasarpa." and - "You should do a search on these boards or the WotC boards. There have been lengthy discussions on the Utter East in the past. The Utter East is the region between Zakhara and Faerun's Ulgarth, also known as the Five Kingdoms. The Five Kingdoms' natives are the Mar, a pseudo-Asian Indian-like people (which makes sense because the pseudo-Indians in Kara Tur are on the other side of the mountains). They were conquered by a mix of Northmen and Ffolk from the Moonshaes a long time ago. These conquers quickly fell to warring with one another's kingdoms, dragging in evil outsiders to do their bidding through giant portals they lost some control over. The books appear in the apocryphal (that is not canon) Double Diamond saga of novels and Faces of Deception (which is canon and the main characters of which got some 2E treatment in Dragon Magazine way back). They also were the setting for an old video game, something with Blood in the title, which really had no Realmslore at all and is insiginficant ot the discussion. As for what I would do. I would take the Mahasarpa web enhancement for the 3E Oriental Adventures and then talk on the invaders and the fiend engine/portals. You could maybe through some Yak Men in (can't remember which book they were updated in) too. This region is not discussed in Shining South, though Ulgarth gets a fair amount of attention in the 2E Shining South and updating in the 3.5E Shining South."
Fillow 04-13-07, 03:46 PM	Thank you very much
BadCatMan 04-14-07, 04:27 AM	Why are these novels non-canon? I found one once, though I haven't read it. They're awfully small.
Lady_K 04-14-07, 07:02 AM	As I understand it . . . they're simply not canon "now" due to the fact that some of the events in the novels have yet to happen in the Realms.
TomCosta 04-14-07, 09:00 AM	My understanding is that it took promiment characters (Artemis Entreri and various Waterdeep characters) and placed them in situations that it was unclear they would be in that far in the future. Artemis, for example, is unlikely to end up in that part of the world at that time given the current storyline he's in, so it's not simply a matter of them not being canon "now," but may be a matter of them "never" really being canon. In the words of the comic books, this retconning, retroactive continuity in action. Rumor -- and I have no insight on this -- was also that it was also part of deal with Salvatore, that any stories about his characters that he didn't write, didn't count, which meant the DD books and the short story about Drizzt in the Realms of the Underdark anthology.
Old Sage 04-14-07, 10:13 AM	As I said above... it seems apparent that some parts of the novels will become canon once the timeline advances. At least, this is what WotC have said about the 'doppelganger' details in MoF.