| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Suin Bahhar10-16-07, 05:51 PM | This dracorage was because of the King Killer star coming back at the sky? What is this phenomena? What areas were laid waste or affected? Any good adventure modules during this time (1374-75 from flamerule and on?)? |
| SgtAnjay10-16-07, 06:12 PM | Dracorage being caused the the King Killer Star (which is a comet, IIRC) is because of the Dracorage Mythal created through Elven High Magic millenia ago. Its purpose was to keep the dragons races from ever founding kingdoms to rule the world the way they used to. |
| meto3010-16-07, 11:29 PM | In very ancient days Dragons ruled Aber-Toril. After millenias of draconic rule Elven high wizards went north to the middle of the High Glacier and crafted the Dracorage Mythal. This Mythal induced irresistible rage in all dragons within its area of effect, which was all of Faerun (or entire Aber-Toril? not sure). The relationship with the King-Killer Star was established so that while the rage prevented continued dragon reign it would not destroy the entire world in a continuous dracorage. Following is spoiler. The Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy features the Dracorage Mythal. Sammaster, the lich master of the Cult of the Dragon, found a way to manipulate the Mythal, and tied his phylactery to the Mythal itself. This allowed him to impose a continuous Dracorage across Faerun that was not tied to the King-Killer Star. Adventurers manage to kill Sammaster, destroy his phylactery and the Mythal with it. This effectively ended the Dracorage permanantly. If the DM follows the official story, then dracorage does not exist after year 1373. Setting book Dragons of Faerun has information on the dracorage, and the year of rogue dragons. |
| Suin Bahhar10-17-07, 11:53 AM | So the next time the King Killer Star returns to the sky there is no dracorage. Bummer. I'll go without the official canon then and skip those events a few years into the future. I plan on my evil PCs experiencing the rage firsthand. The red star is spotted and all hell breaks loose as the temple guardians of Tchazzar go on a rampage in Chessenta. Vulcanic eruptions will mark the horizon and black soot will soon cover every citystate. If they manage to convince the Cult of the Dragon or the Temples of Tchazzar they are trustworthy Sammaster or the Undying Queen will ask the party to find the location of Syorpiir where he knows the last sighting of the dracorage mythal was. Suin Bahhar brings Peace by Fire to Chessenta! |
| Lord Karsus10-21-07, 12:57 AM | So the next time the King Killer Star returns to the sky there is no dracorage. Bummer. I'll go without the official canon then and skip those events a few years into the future. I plan on my evil PCs experiencing the rage firsthand. The red star is spotted and all hell breaks loose as the temple guardians of Tchazzar go on a rampage in Chessenta. Vulcanic eruptions will mark the horizon and black soot will soon cover every citystate. If they manage to convince the Cult of the Dragon or the Temples of Tchazzar they are trustworthy Sammaster or the Undying Queen will ask the party to find the location of Syorpiir where he knows the last sighting of the dracorage mythal was. Suin Bahhar brings Peace by Fire to Chessenta! -You could always insinuate that the Dracorage Mythal wasn't fully destroyed, or that the King Killer Star itself has some sort of lingering power over Dragonkind. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-21-07, 06:42 PM | -You could always insinuate that the Dracorage Mythal wasn't fully destroyed, or that the King Killer Star itself has some sort of lingering power over Dragonkind. I agree with those suggestions. No reason to kill a good potential story just because of what happened in the novels (there are always ways of working around them). |
| Suin Bahhar10-21-07, 07:18 PM | I'm going with the idea of the comet actually having an influence on dragon kind, like in E:IoE when Malar timed an attack on elves with the dracorage due to the red King Killer Star. |
| selunatic239710-21-07, 09:42 PM | I used the book series to create an adventure series for my players, and after the ending, and destruction of the entire elven ice city... I then promptly had the evil dragons begin to recreate the dragon empires of old :D My group is now planning to do some recreating of their own...they want to bring back the dracorage. Oh Well! It sure keeps them occupied :plotting: |
| Lord Karsus10-22-07, 12:17 AM | I'm going with the idea of the comet actually having an influence on dragon kind, like in E:IoE when Malar timed an attack on elves with the dracorage due to the red King Killer Star. -I, personally, like that idea better. I was never much of a fan of the whole Dragonrage Mythal. Too many glaring errors. If it was done better, maybe. |
| Zsych10-22-07, 03:39 AM | Hmm... wonder if the lack of the draco-rage mythal foreshadows increased activity by dragons in 4E. |
| Strife02610-22-07, 04:42 AM | I think there will definitely be an increase in dragon activities. In Dragons of Faerun, it mentions that both Tiamat and Bahamut tell their followers to find dragon eggs that fell to earth from some event called Tearfall. It also mentions something about a renewal of the Dragonfall War. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-22-07, 09:03 AM | -I, personally, like that idea better. I was never much of a fan of the whole Dragonrage Mythal. Too many glaring errors. If it was done better, maybe. I'm getting a little tired of the apparent growing trend where everything (more specifically, everyone's problems) leads back to elves using high magic. For example, see the Lady Penitent novels and the new explanation for faer'zress. |
| Suin Bahhar10-22-07, 09:33 AM | The Age of Dragons was largely averted by the sun and moon elves of Tintageer, so their involvement in the dracorage is justified. I agree it is tiring to bump into elven high magic rituals as THE tool for changing the realms. I still would have preferred an additional role for something like Orge Mage covens, Hobgoblin blademasters, or Dwarven mastersmiths as active dragonslayers during the Age of Dragons. During this age Dragons had taken slaves from among the humanoid races and ruled them as kings. Is it true even the metallic dragons were tyrants and certainly not goodly? What were the relations between the different colored dragons? Any alliances or extensive dragonroosts near Chessenta? The dragon tyrants allowed worship of Fearunian dieties by their slaves? What was Tiamat doing? With dragons libido there must have been lots of halfdragon subordinates in the families of dragons. Hmm. What is the expected age of halfdragon humanoids? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-22-07, 09:47 AM | During this age Dragons had taken slaves from among the humanoid races and ruled them as kings. Is it true even the metallic dragons were tyrants and certainly not goodly? That's a great question. The novel trilogy hints (although through a character, so it may not be fact) that even the "goodly" dragons weren't all that good back then, although they were still better than the chromatics. |
| Derren S.10-22-07, 09:51 AM | Hmm... wonder if the lack of the draco-rage mythal foreshadows increased activity by dragons in 4E. We don't know. While Dragons of Faerun says that now as the Mythal is gone (which was by the way rather evil for some theoretically chaotic good elves) a new "Cycle" for dragons begin where dragon eggs fall from the sky (like when the dragons first appeared) and that Bahamut and Tiamat want to start their war again. But we do not know how much contact the writers of Dragons of Faerun had with the 4Ed. team. It could be that both Bahamut and Tiamat will be killed by the Spellplague&slimming down of the pantheon and that the whole storyline of the dragonfall war will be forgotten. |
| Lord Karsus10-22-07, 11:01 AM | ...(which was by the way rather evil for some theoretically chaotic good elves)... -How so? The spell simply lowered the Wisdom scores of Dragons. The Age of Dragons was largely averted by the sun and moon elves of Tintageer, so their involvement in the dracorage is justified. -Agreed. I agree it is tiring to bump into elven high magic rituals as THE tool for changing the realms. -Agreed. |
| Derren S.10-22-07, 11:03 AM | -How so? The spell simply lowered the Wisdom scores of Dragons. And made them attack everthing they meet. Casting it once to destroy the tyrannical dragon kingdoms was ok, but leaving it in place even after the metallic dragons turned good so they too kill innocents and die themself and not protecting them even if you have the means to do so is rather evil. It is likewise evil to leave the rage in place for basically no reason and let countless other people suffer from the effects of the rage. |
| Lord Karsus10-22-07, 11:24 AM | And made them attack everthing they meet. Casting it once to destroy the tyrannical dragon kingdoms was ok, but leaving it in place even after the metallic dragons turned good so they too kill innocents and die themself and not protecting them even if you have the means to do so is rather evil. It is likewise evil to leave the rage in place for basically no reason and let countless other people suffer from the effects of the rage. -How is it the fault of the Elves that the Dragons resorted to physical violence? I don't think one can predict something like that. If you start making fun of a retarded person, they are just as likely to lash out in violence as they are to take it. -At the time, all of the Draconic Baronies were 'tyrannical'. The short story in Realms of the Elves demonstrates just that- how a Gold Dragon (LG) dominated all those within his territory, not allowing the other races that inhabited them self-determiniation. All Dragons- metallic, gem, chromatic- are haughty to begin with, and during this peroid of time, Dragonic haughtiness became 'righteous entitlement'. -I agree, as I stated before, that why and how the Dracorage Mythal was completely forgotten befuddles me (Ha! That's a word no one uses often!). That's one of the glaring and obious holes that can be attributed to the author, Byers. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-22-07, 11:40 AM | Regarding the morality of what the elves did: I go with something the author once said about this, I think on Candlekeep. Would it have been better for the world to stay as it was depicted in "Traitors" (the aforementioned short story)? |
| Lord Karsus10-22-07, 11:51 AM | Regarding the morality of what the elves did: I go with something the author once said about this, I think on Candlekeep. Would it have been better for the world to stay as it was depicted in "Traitors" (the aforementioned short story)? -Simply put: War is war. |
| Derren S.10-23-07, 03:48 AM | -Simply put: War is war. I never said that the initial creation of the Dracorage Mythal was wrong. Read my post again. What I said was that after some thousand years, long after the metallic dragons turned into good hearted beings, the dragons were so fractured and the other races so advanced that such dragon kingdoms could not happen again leaving the Mythal in place which caused harm to many good aligned dragons and even more innocent people who had to suffer under the rage was rather questionable. Especially that the elves did invent epic spells to protect dragons from the rage but didn't find it necessary to tell the good dragons about them. |
| Aldareth10-23-07, 06:30 AM | Hmmm lets see why...everybody who knows about the mythal died ? the ones who didnt know, but was aware of a HEM ritual choosed to not share their knowledge , to not pass information to others? so many ways that this ritual oh high magic get "lost" with time... personally i would prefer that the source of the rage is the king killer star and that mythal just enchanced the effect of the king killer on dragons, something like an amplifier. so the king killer before the mythal was something like the full moon to humans and changed after the mythal castig to something like the full moon to werewolfs |
| Derren S.10-23-07, 07:55 AM | Hmmm lets see why...everybody who knows about the mythal died ? the ones who didnt know, but was aware of a HEM ritual choosed to not share their knowledge , to not pass information to others? so many ways that this ritual oh high magic get "lost" with time... As GothicDan once pointed out to me, its very unlikely that the elves forgot the creation of such an Mythal (because of the Reverie). Also during the Crown Wars the elves used the King Killer Shield to protect their draconic allies from the Rage so it still leaves the question why the good aligned elves did not share the knowledge about how to protect themself from the rage with the good aligned dragons so that they don't kill themselves and other innocents. [/QUOTE] |
| Aldareth10-23-07, 08:38 AM | they didnt "forgett" it, they just prefer to keep it secret until everybody who know about it died, the effect is the same. as to why the elves didnt share their king killer shield: 1: why should they? 2: maybe because it was a secret? and a shared secret is no secret anymore 3: maybe the war prominent parties had both ( good) dragon allies and the side with the king killer shield wasnt that stupid to share that spell? remeber these was the crown wars and there ist no good/evil side here(except the illithiry) |
| Suin Bahhar10-23-07, 09:28 AM | Im gonna go with a different group installing a Dracorage artifect. I might go with Talonian human Turami wizards creating a big dragonorb. Maybe they used Talos power over rages and destruction to stop the tyranny of a mighty empire ruled by a pair of red dragon lords. Talos increased the power of the artifect when slighted by the Turami people in favor of the god of the sun, Aumanator and caused the relationship of the orb to wax and wane tied to a red star (the King Killer star). I plan on having the effect being tied to all dragonkind later on by Tiamat. I only think Tiamat did not know of Fearun during this age as she might have come to Fearun only from the Imaskari Godswar and on. Maybe I'll have Leira trick the dragon orb to effect all dragon kind. |
| Derren S.10-23-07, 09:33 AM | 1: why should they? Elves are supposed to be good and sharing a spell to protect good aligned creatures from killing themself and others sounds like a good thing to do. 2: maybe because it was a secret? and a shared secret is no secret anymore And? Keeping something a secret just so that it is a secret is no reason. Why wouldn't the elves share this spell with metallic dragons or at least provide them with an area where they can rest without being affected by the rage? 3: maybe the war prominent parties had both ( good) dragon allies and the side with the king killer shield wasnt that stupid to share that spell? remeber these was the crown wars and there ist no good/evil side here(except the illithiry) And what about the time after the crown war? And why would sharing this spell with good dragons be stupid? Don't forget that Elves are "Usually good", even if the novels show them to be very differently(especially sun elves). And letting good creatures kill innocent people is nothing good creatures would do. |
| Aldareth10-23-07, 09:46 AM | Elves are supposed to be good and sharing a spell to protect good aligned creatures from killing themself and others sounds like a good thing to do.. to be good dont mean to be stupid , or to help everybody just for the sake of beeing good, maybe they have reached the same understanding as the most powerfull forces of good : you cant rescue everyone.. And? Keeping something a secret just so that it is a secret is no reason. Why wouldn't the elves share this spell with metallic dragons or at least provide them with an area where they can rest without being affected by the rage? keeping a secret to prevent that the wrong dragons ( the chromatic you know?) learn about that spell is a reason..a very good reason if you ask me, metallic dragons that die because of that secret are collaterall damage and serve the greater good ( of the elves of course) And what about the time after the crown war? And why would sharing this spell with good dragons be stupid? Don't forget that Elves are "Usually good", even if the novels show them to be very differently(especially sun elves). And letting good creatures kill innocent people is nothing good creatures would do see above... |
| Derren S.10-23-07, 09:58 AM | And why would evil dragons learning this spell be stupid? After all by now the dragon kingdoms can't happen again because elves & humans are too advanced. Besides as that spell is an epic spell that the wrong dragon learns this spell is rather unlikely. And you still didn't explain why the elves did not provide a "safe zone" for good dragons. And the "greater good" explanation doesn't fit to the majority of good elves either. After all they are not neutral. PS: I wonder how many elves were killed by raging dragons since the first rage... |
| Alediran10-23-07, 10:21 AM | The Dracorage Mythal was established as a repeating occurrence tied to the King Killer Star to completely impede the chance fior them to become tyrants again. After all no matter how many archmages you may have, if a raged flight of dragons is hard to defeat, imagine how almost impossible is to defeat an aware flight of dragons that can employ their full powers (while raging, dragons can't use their magic, for example) |
| Lord Karsus10-23-07, 12:37 PM | As GothicDan once pointed out to me, its very unlikely that the elves forgot the creation of such an Mythal (because of the Reverie). -Like I said before, I agree with you here. Having the Rage of the Dragon retconned to be an Elven Mythal causes so many continuity problems. But, this is one of those cases where you have to blame the author, or whoever it was that came up with the idea. Blaming the lore itself is pointless. |
| Aldareth10-24-07, 02:21 AM | And why would evil dragons learning this spell be stupid? After all by now the dragon kingdoms can't happen again because elves & humans are too advanced. Besides as that spell is an epic spell that the wrong dragon learns this spell is rather unlikely. see aledirans post to why it would be a big mess if evil dragons learn about that spell who says that dragon kingdoms cant happen? we all ready have in unther... here a campain idea for you...the morueme dragon clan learns about that spell and beginns to extort other dragons and force their will on them... And you still didn't explain why the elves did not provide a "safe zone" for good dragons. And the "greater good" explanation doesn't fit to the majority of good elves either. After all they are not neutral. PS: I wonder how many elves were killed by raging dragons since the first rage... because the elves are not the red cross? they are not the social wellfare assistance ? they are not greenpeace and running a "save the dragons" campain? and the " greater good " for the elves dont mean it has to be good for all others , in this case its just bad for the dragons, in addition other races benefit too in the whole, humans , dwarves, halflings , even evil races like orcs , hobgoblins and others benefit from the rage. as to how many elves where killed during the rage: it really dont matter , because it is written that the elves faced extinction from the dragons (extinction = all dead ) @ lord karsus i need a explanation : what is possible with the reverie ? can elves keep a secret or does all others elves have access to that secret trough the reverie? because if they cant keep a secret for them, next session im going to dominate a elven lass and going to find out all secrets of queen amlauril |
| Derren S.10-24-07, 03:17 AM | see aledirans post to why it would be a big mess if evil dragons learn about that spell who says that dragon kingdoms cant happen? we all ready have in unther... Because unlike in the past the elves and especially humans are now too advanced and numerous to be overpowered by dragons. If a dragon kingdom was to be established it has to be done willingly. Also good dragons cooperate and would probably share the spell, evil dragons won't (except blues) and you can bet that there will be a lot of bloodshed among them over this spell. A Win-Win situation because the elves are not the red cross? they are not the social wellfare assistance ? they are not greenpeace and running a "save the dragons" campain? and the " greater good " for the elves dont mean it has to be good for all others , in this case its just bad for the dragons, in addition other races benefit too in the whole, humans , dwarves, halflings , even evil races like orcs , hobgoblins and others benefit from the rage. You need to learn how alignment works. If elves were like humans this explanation would make sense, but they are a "good" race where the majority of them are good aligned. That means they wouldn't kill thousands of innocent and good aligned creatures just because something might happen with a very low probability in the future (several elven generations) if they don't as to how many elves where killed during the rage: it really dont matter , because it is written that the elves faced extinction from the dragons (extinction = all dead ) Please read again. I am not talking about a single rage but all rages together. So I ask again, how many elves were killed by raging dragons after the first few rages and after the metallic dragons turned good? The point after the rage served no purpose anymore and only spread death and destruction? |
| Aldareth10-24-07, 04:32 AM | Because unlike in the past the elves and especially humans are now too advanced and numerous to be overpowered by dragons. If a dragon kingdom was to be established it has to be done willingly. no they are a not , but maybe in your campain dragons are just stupid beasts that give exp... i think i missed the voting that tsachzzar maked so he got elected Also good dragons cooperate and would probably share the spell, evil dragons won't (except blues) and you can bet that there will be a lot of bloodshed among them over this spell. A Win-Win situation or they go and hunt the creators of the spell..guess who that is... You need to learn how alignment works. If elves were like humans this explanation would make sense, but they are a "good" race where the majority of them are good aligned. That means they wouldn't kill thousands of innocent and good aligned creatures just because something might happen with a very low probability in the future (several elven generations) if they don't and you have to learn how politics and goverment work, also your view on alignment ist pretty simple. so elves are overall good, but that dont mean that the collective takes decisions. so even if the decision of ,lets assume, the circle oh high elven mages who know about the mythal / spell speaks doom for good dragons and elves ( something you can say is evil) the elves as whole are still overall good maybe the ones who take the decisions have more insight/wisdom then the average elven commoner or even noble ,maybe they even got instructions or they act because there is a fact that we as readers dont know ( a prophecy / divination maybe that the dragons will rise again to power in the future? who knows...i know that we dont...) Please read again. I am not talking about a single rage but all rages together. So I ask again, how many elves were killed by raging dragons after the first few rages and after the metallic dragons turned good? The point after the rage served no purpose anymore and only spread death and destruction? and who can say that there wouldnt be new dragon kingdoms if the rage ceased to exist, or that they dont tried, just because nobody telled that story , it dont mean that that not happened. if you can, than you surely can look in the future too and tell me the winning numbers for lotto on saturday... |
| Derren S.10-24-07, 05:04 AM | So I guess with that argumentation it is ok and "in character" for other good aligned races to periodically raid and slaughter elven villages/cities in order to prevent them from devastating Faerun with their High Magic again. |
| Aldareth10-24-07, 06:36 AM | So I guess with that argumentation it is ok and "in character" for other good aligned races to periodically raid and slaughter elven villages/cities in order to prevent them from devastating Faerun with their High Magic again. go ahead good aligned races ( ?!) with sufficient military power to fight all elves all over faerun!!!! go ahead and face the fate of jamdath! :D |
| Lord Karsus10-24-07, 10:35 AM | -Derren, Aldareth...Again, this is one of those cases where you have to blame the author, or whoever it was that came up with the idea originally. Blaming the lore itself, and agruing back and forth isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It just leads to incorrect assumptions. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-24-07, 10:49 AM | go ahead good aligned races ( ?!) with sufficient military power to fight all elves all over faerun!!!! go ahead and face the fate of jamdath! :D Elves are gay. I hope who ever it is with that military power you are talking about, wipes the Elves away from FR including Drow. Pointy ears FTL |
| Lord Karsus10-24-07, 10:59 AM | Elves are gay. I hope who ever it is with that military power you are talking about, wipes the Elves away from FR including Drow. Pointy ears FTL -You...I...bite my tongue, bite my tongue, bite my tongue, bite my tongue... |
| Alediran10-24-07, 11:19 AM | Elves are gay. I hope who ever it is with that military power you are talking about, wipes the Elves away from FR including Drow. Pointy ears FTL They could never win against the elves, they have evermeet, where only elves can enter without the need for permission, other races must be accompanied by the Tel'Quessir or the protections that the Seldarine laid on the island would never allow them to enter. No N'Tel'Quessir from Kymil Nimesin's army was able to set foot on the island during E.IoE. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-24-07, 11:30 AM | They could never win against the elves, they have evermeet, where only elves can enter without the need for permission, other races must be accompanied by the Tel'Quessir or the protections that the Seldarine laid on the island would never allow them to enter. No N'Tel'Quessir from Kymil Nimesin's army was able to set foot on the island during E.IoE. Try harder |
| Suin Bahhar10-24-07, 11:35 AM | Go away. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-24-07, 11:38 AM | Go away. Some kind of evidence Some kind of reason Why I can't find a way To begin my life Somewhere in this dying day If I can only find a way for my escape I find it hard to concentrate with all my past mistakes the sun doesnt rise at all |
| 18DELTA10-24-07, 01:08 PM | What happens in the spellplague aftermath? Will the Dragons rise to the top again? No Dracorage Mythal could be the novels setting the stage for A 4E Forgotten Realms Dragon take over? I doubt it, but we never know with WotC!;) |
| Aldareth10-25-07, 02:35 AM | Elves are gay. I hope who ever it is with that military power you are talking about, wipes the Elves away from FR including Drow. Pointy ears FTL the point on this statement beta is: there is no such military power on faerun... but now where the draco rage mythal is destroyed and dragons are on the rise again...who knows |
| Derren S.10-25-07, 03:20 AM | What happens in the spellplague aftermath? Will the Dragons rise to the top again? No Dracorage Mythal could be the novels setting the stage for A 4E Forgotten Realms Dragon take over? I doubt it, but we never know with WotC!;) Dragons of Faerun hinted that after the Mythal was destroyed by Tiamats plan the dragons are preparing for a war with each other and that some cycle begins anew. So it could be that dragons will rise again in the far future. But we don't know how much influence the 4th Edition had on Dragons of Faerun. It is possible (and imo likely) that Bahamut and Tiamat will be demoted to special dragons/quasi deities in 4E and that the whole Dragonfall War plotline will not be used in 4E. Besides, the FR never detailed monsterous races much. They simply existed to be killed without much regard about their society, especially non humanoid monsters so don't expect th hear much about kingdoms ruled by dragons. |
| Zsych10-25-07, 04:08 AM | I wonder if some powerful and wise dragons who knew of the upcoming trouble through divination might not have decided to put themselves in stasis of some kind until things returned to normal.. or to save their kids... Might explain eggs and such falling after the mythal vanished. -- About Evermeet's defences... I have the impression that high level wizards can get through the divine barriers around Evermeet, if not too easily. -- On elves remembering everything... I think higher level elves are more divorced from regular elves. In 2E I think High Mages gave up the desire to enter the afterlife and possibly other things to become high mages. If they think differently or do not share as well in reverie then more knowledge can be limited to inidividuals and lost more easily(not that I think the reverie saves much knowledge anyway, or the kiira wouldn't be needed) (Actually, I don't recall reading that the reverie actually caused sharing of knowledge among elves) ... And regarding the evil of leaving the dragons with the rage... It was a wartime decision, and those that made it likely didn't want to risk their enemies returning to power. Looks like a good decision to me, and if the knowledge wasn't passed on so that the spell would never be disturbed.. probably also a good idea. |
| Derren S.10-25-07, 04:17 AM | ... And regarding the evil of leaving the dragons with the rage... It was a wartime decision, and those that made it likely didn't want to risk their enemies returning to power. Looks like a good decision to me, and if the knowledge wasn't passed on so that the spell would never be disturbed.. probably also a good idea. It was a wartime decision, but most ofits effects were felt in times of peace with lots of unneccessary bloodshed among good and innocent creatures. And that because of what a normally CG race has done. |
| Alediran10-25-07, 09:01 AM | It was a wartime decision, but most ofits effects were felt in times of peace with lots of unneccessary bloodshed among good and innocent creatures. And that because of what a normally CG race has done. Without the Dracorage Mythal, the rule of humanity over the realms would have never existed and the elves would have never constructed the ancient realms. Faerūn would be VERY different if the elves hadn't maintained the Mythal. It's easier to kill raging dragons than full capable ones. Everybody owes the elves what they have. |
| Derren S.10-25-07, 09:13 AM | And what proof do you offer that the "PHB" races wouldn't have rised when the rage would have stopped some thousand years earlier like for example during/after the First Flowering? At that time that elves did rule and dragons were no threat anymore and likely wouldn't have been in the future as even unraged most dragons who took a more active role were killed by spellcasters of the humanoid races. |
| Alediran10-25-07, 09:39 AM | Elves ruled and dragons where no threat because the Rage kept them like that. If the rage had stopped before, then the elves would never have the power to fight against dragons (even metallic dragons where considered evil on that time). Humanity was able to rise AFTER the time of the elves. If the Tel'Quessir hadn't fought in the Crown Wars, humanity would never have had the chance to step in, the first Netherese floating enclave would have been blasted by High Magic, and you can imagine the rest. If dragons had recovered during/before the First Flowering, when elves hadn't yet solidified they hold on Faerūn then they wouldn't be alive against a time where dragons where more powerful and more lived. It's hard to kill a single dragon, how hard would it be to fight against ten dragons at full capacity. Not even Waterdeep could do that without being crippled. |
| Derren S.10-25-07, 09:54 AM | Thats you interpretation but when do you think did the metallic dragons become good aligned? Because that is the time your excuse for keeping the Mythal falls apart as after that point it is very unlikely that dragons could have formed oppressive kingdows as they warred among each other. And you still offer no explanation why the elves never removed the Mythal. Since several thousand years the humanoid races are so powerfull that dragons have no chance to rise up. About the difficulty of fighting dragons, during the rage novels the monks killed dozends of unraged dragons and also history shows that humanoids had no trouble defeating dragons for example when a whole clan of blue dragons waged war with Calishan and were all killed by spellcasters. |
| Aldareth10-25-07, 10:15 AM | Thats you interpretation but when do you think did the metallic dragons become good aligned? Because that is the time your excuse for keeping the Mythal falls apart as after that point it is very unlikely that dragons could have formed oppressive kingdows as they warred among each other. thats not important to the common folk and most other folk , a dragon is a dragon, he is frightening, something that nobody wants in his neighbourhood. and Derren there is realy no difference if my village is destroyed of a raging red dragon or two unraging dragons of whom one is supposed to be good... And you still offer no explanation why the elves never removed the Mythal. Since several thousand years the humanoid races are so powerfull that dragons have no chance to rise up. Because they forget or just because them who know of it choose not to. and YES elves can forget, and YES elves can keep a secret so no ****ing every elf knows about it because of the reverie. and if the humanoid races are so powerfull as you claim , there would be no dragons anymore About the difficulty of fighting dragons, during the rage novels the monks killed dozends of unraged dragons and also history shows that humanoids had no trouble defeating dragons for example when a whole clan of blue dragons waged war with Calishan and were all killed by spellcasters. read the novels again, the killed a dozens dragons because the dragons in charge played silly powergames |
| Alediran10-25-07, 10:18 AM | Yes, are all those dragons of the Great Wyrm category? Imagine if ten Klauths where to attack Waterdeep and the Wards that prohibit dragons from entering the city don't affect them, what would happen? Because during the time of dragons Klauth wold be considered a minor player. The dragons of that time where the equivalent of the Netherese archwizards on terms of power. It takes thousands of years to weaken the draconic race with the effects of the Mythal. I'm sure (if the 4ed doesn't kills this plotline) that dragons will become again a force that will make the world more dangerous to live (actually, this plotline makes sense with the "PoL" approach of 4th ed) |
| Derren S.10-25-07, 11:03 AM | If ten Klauths would attack the city half would fall to the statues + Blackstaff and the other half will be taken care of by the dozends of archmages and adventurers residing in Waterdeep. The realms, especially the major cities are full of high powered characters and dragons are portrayed redicusly weak. And yes, some of those dragons were quite strong. Two of them were even classed. Yet the monks alone were able to hold them off for days. And with the help of a few adventurers they were able to easily outsmart them kill nearly the complete host (probably more than 30 dragons). And the internal fighting only began after Chantulio started meddeling with them, not during the initial assault. |
| Alediran10-25-07, 11:36 AM | Yes, but they still used the only technique that works against small groups of dragons: outsmarting them. On a full scale war of humans & demi-humans vs an army of dragons, the latter will win. You only need to see the effects of Garnet's raging flight against the Army of Darkness during the Weeping War to see the power of a single dragon at full capacity. And Garnet wasn't a Great Wyrm. The Last Rage that happened under the King Killer Star went to Evermeet itself, and the flight of dragons was stopped only bythe Dragonriders of Evermeet. With Lady Askahala Durothil herself fighting with her Great Wyrm Gold Dragon mount, and they only survived thanks to the High Magics of Amlauril and the High Mages who put them to stasis. |
| Lord Karsus10-25-07, 12:54 PM | Thats you interpretation but when do you think did the metallic dragons become good aligned? -Metallic Dragons were always good aligned. And you still offer no explanation why the elves never removed the Mythal. Since several thousand years the humanoid races are so powerfull that dragons have no chance to rise up. -For the third (fourth?) time now, there is no way to properly reconcile this lore. All we can do is chalk it up to errors on the part of the author(s)/storyteller(s)/designer(s). |
| ExtinctionBeta10-25-07, 12:59 PM | -Metallic Dragons were always good aligned. That's dumb. What you are should not decide who you are. Sounds just like Dragonlance with thier crappy linear story lines...depending on your dragon color decides your life! |
| Lord Karsus10-25-07, 01:12 PM | That's dumb. What you are should not decide who you are. Sounds just like Dragonlance with thier crappy linear story lines...depending on your dragon color decides your life! -Not all creatures have their behavior determined by nurture. Many creatures have their behaviors determined by nature. In D&D, anyway. Certain creatures, such as Devils, are inherently evil due to their nature. Other creatures, such as Drow, some would say, are only evil because of their environment. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-25-07, 01:23 PM | -Not all creatures have their behavior determined by nurture. Many creatures have their behaviors determined by nature. In D&D, anyway. Certain creatures, such as Devils, are inherently evil due to their nature. Other creatures, such as Drow, some would say, are only evil because of their environment. That is not true...Drizzt was raised in the underdark and he became a straight up Paladin. |
| Lord Karsus10-25-07, 01:35 PM | That is not true...Drizzt was raised in the underdark and he became a straight up Paladin. -No, that supports what I am saying. Drow, for instance, aren't inherently (Nature) evil. The fact that Drizzt, Liriel, and other Drow have the capacity to become good means that it is the society of the Drow (Nurture) that causes most of 'em to be evil. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-25-07, 01:39 PM | -No, that supports what I am saying. Drow, for instance, aren't inherently (Nature) evil. The fact that Drizzt, Liriel, and other Drow have the capacity to become good means that it is the society of the Drow (Nurture) that causes most of 'em to be evil. The only thing I am wondering is, if Lolth were to be destroyed (Oh I hope), would they Drow still carry on with thier society? Or do they act out of fear of her only. Nothing would be gained from becomming the most powerful house other than watching your back. So in theory...if Lolth dies...individuality begians from the Drow. They will flock to the surface, with the exception of a few fanatics. |
| Puritan1310-25-07, 01:45 PM | I think if Lloth were destroyed, the drow, who are a very practical species, would quickly switch back to worshipping Vhaerun, Kiaransalee and Ghaunadaur. The don't love Lloth, the love what worshipping an evil god can get them. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-25-07, 06:59 PM | I think if Lloth were destroyed, the drow, who are a very practical species, would quickly switch back to worshipping Vhaerun, Kiaransalee and Ghaunadaur. The don't love Lloth, the love what worshipping an evil god can get them. You should see what EDIT |
| meto3010-25-07, 07:16 PM | This user is on your Ignore List. I was hoping to read interesting stuff and instead I get to disinfect this abominable brain-eating disease. |
| Suin Bahhar10-25-07, 07:26 PM | Dracorages lower wisdom of the dragons to scores of about 8? They cant cast spells and just fly and breath and destroy villages. Good dragons all turn temporarily evil? |
| Puritan1310-25-07, 07:40 PM | You should see what whorshipping your mom can get me.See this people? This is what happens when someone can't read well enough to fully comprehend your post. I'll use smaller words next time, EB. |
| meto3010-25-07, 09:08 PM | The book Dragons of Faerun states: The Wisdom damage and attitude shift gradually change the dragon's opinions about acceptable behavior, diminishing its higher cerebral functions while simultaneously intensifying its baser instincts. Moreover, the dragon slowly loses the ability to see nondragons as allies, mentally transforming them into threats or even mere food. For every 5 points of Wisdom damage, the dragonn becomes more aggressive, and its atitude toward nondragons shifts one step toward hostile. This persists until the dragon's Wisdom score reaches 1. After that, assuming the dragon is not already hostile to all nondragons, it must make a successful save every day or continue its attitude shift. Dragons lose 1 Wisdom point per day under the affect of the spell. Will save DC is 10. Those whose wisdom fell below 10 obtain rage ability. Break Enchantment, Heal, Greater Restoration is completely ineffective, and only Miracle and Wish spells will work, but only 1 wisdom point is healed per spell. Abate Dracorage spell is most effective, healing 5 points and moving attitude one step towards friendly. Uh, the book says the caster level DC for dispelling the Dracorage Mythal is 81.... |
| 18DELTA10-25-07, 11:33 PM | You should see what whorshipping your mom can get me. Say, how old are you really? That crud is totally out of line. I understand good natured fun, but some things just cross the line.Quit being a Troll all right. Play fair or dont play at all ok. Nothing personal, just grow up.;) |
| Derren S.10-26-07, 03:50 AM | thats not important to the common folk and most other folk , a dragon is a dragon, he is frightening, something that nobody wants in his neighbourhood. I forgot to ask, what makes you think that this is the case. To know that metallic dragons are all good is a DC 10 or DC 15 check, so 50-25% of all level 1 commoners would know that (The precentage would be higher for Sun Elves). Also aren't the elves of evermeet not allied with dragons? At least they have a dozend dragons serving in their army. Thats another reason, together with their alignment and the destruction among innocents and good beings the rages cause why elves should have destroyed that Mythal a long time ago or provided the metallic dragons with King Killer shielded refugees. They did even had to teach the metallic dragons this spell, just cast in on elven land (Evermeet) and offer the metallic dragons to stay there during rages. |
| Aldareth10-26-07, 06:31 AM | I forgot to ask, what makes you think that this is the case. To know that metallic dragons are all good is a DC 10 or DC 15 check, so 50-25% of all level 1 commoners would know that (The precentage would be higher for Sun Elves). people know that flying with a plane is les dangerous than driving with a car, still more people are afraid from flying than driving a car...where is your point? to know something and to feel something are two different things... Also aren't the elves of evermeet not allied with dragons? At least they have a dozend dragons serving in their army. Thats another reason, together with their alignment and the destruction among innocents and good beings the rages cause why elves should have destroyed that Mythal a long time ago or provided the metallic dragons with King Killer shielded refugees. They did even had to teach the metallic dragons this spell, just cast in on elven land (Evermeet) and offer the metallic dragons to stay there during rages . yeah they are allied with dragons and these dragons they protected. and their alignment as a race has nothing to do with their political decisions as such, and to not destroy the mythal is such a decision ( if they know about it anyway) . innocents and good beeings die all the time so who should the elves save first? and why should the save a bunch of dragons they are not allied too and that would make formidable oponnents ( and yes even between good races are conflicts not unusual ) and not save that farmers daughter that is to die because it runs in these abandoned elven ruins that are protected with wards? shouldnt they trie to save both? they are good arent they? and both dangers are elven faults! they know that they cant save everyone so as chaotic and close to nature race they decide to go the most natural way and that is: survival of the fittest - if the dragons dont survive they are not fit enough , same for that farmers daughter...easy like that and if you ask now, why then they protect the allied dragons then? easy answer: because they serve the elves in their survival , decisions like that makes the elves survive, making them fit enough to survive |
| Derren S.10-26-07, 07:36 AM | people know that flying with a plane is les dangerous than driving with a car, still more people are afraid from flying than driving a car...where is your point? to know something and to feel something are two different things... Do you have numbers to back that up? And it still doesn't change that most villages would know that metallic dragons are good and would not harm them. So there is not this widespread dragon paranoia you say, especially not with the elves as there are several dragons serving with the Evermeet military. yeah they are allied with dragons and these dragons they protected. and their alignment as a race has nothing to do with their political decisions as such, and to not destroy the mythal is such a decision ( if they know about it anyway) . Wrong. A good aligned political will most ofthe time make good aligned decisions. And when he constantly acts against the common alignment of the people he represents there will be quite an uproarespecially in a chaotic society like the elven one. innocents and good beeings die all the time so who should the elves save first? and why should the save a bunch of dragons they are not allied too and that would make formidable oponnents ( and yes even between good races are conflicts not unusual ) and not save that farmers daughter that is to die because it runs in these abandoned elven ruins that are protected with wards? shouldnt they trie to save both? they are good arent they? and both dangers are elven faults! they know that they cant save everyone so as chaotic and close to nature race they decide to go the most natural way and that is: survival of the fittest - if the dragons dont survive they are not fit enough , same for that farmers daughter...easy like that What you describe is not how a CG person would behave. Saying that because you can't save two people you don't need to save at least one of them is simply stupid. And the elves did have the ability to save a lot of metallic dragons, innocent farmers who were killed by the raging metallics and deal a blow to the chromatic dragons by simply protecting the metallic dragons with the King Killer shield. And survival of the fittest is not a good concept either but a neutral one. It seems you have to read the alignment section in teh PHB a few times. Anyway, there is absolutly no disadvantage to protecting the metallic dragons from the rage and it would be "in character" for CG elves. Destroying the Mythal would have the disadvantage that chromatics also wouldn't be affected by the rage anymore but compared to how many lives that saves it is a small price. All your arguments make sense for a neutral or evil society, but not for a good one. and if you ask now, why then they protect the allied dragons then? easy answer: because they serve the elves in their survival , decisions like that makes the elves survive, making them fit enough to survive Again, a neutral behavior, not a good one. Untypical for the elven race (except when you follow some novels which portray the elves as being neutral, close to evil.[quote] @Lord Karsus I know that this discrepancy was created with the introduction of the Dracorage Mythal, but that is Canon now and we have to deal with it. It simply means that the elves act very unlogical and against their alignment. |
| Aldareth10-26-07, 08:55 AM | ok one last try ... Do you have numbers to back that up? And it still doesn't change that most villages would know that metallic dragons are good and would not harm them. So there is not this widespread dragon paranoia you say, especially not with the elves as there are several dragons serving with the Evermeet military.. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviophobie 25%- 50% in every plane is afraid of flying... you mean that dragons that are walking the streets of the elven cities right?! ohhh i forget..the dragons are in stasis...so no "hello Mr.Dragon , with what can serve you on this sunny day" at the street-cafe.. Wrong. A good aligned political will most ofthe time make good aligned decisions. And when he constantly acts against the common alignment of the people he represents there will be quite an uproarespecially in a chaotic society like the elven one.. yeah so these "we dont destroy these mythal" is the rare evil decision, so no uproar... What you describe is not how a CG person would behave. Saying that because you can't save two people you don't need to save at least one of them is simply stupid. And the elves did have the ability to save a lot of metallic dragons, innocent farmers who were killed by the raging metallics and deal a blow to the chromatic dragons by simply protecting the metallic dragons with the King Killer shield. And survival of the fittest is not a good concept either but a neutral one. It seems you have to read the alignment section in teh PHB a few times. Anyway, there is absolutly no disadvantage to protecting the metallic dragons from the rage and it would be "in character" for CG elves. Destroying the Mythal would have the disadvantage that chromatics also wouldn't be affected by the rage anymore but compared to how many lives that saves it is a small price. All your arguments make sense for a neutral or evil society, but not for a good one. Again, a neutral behavior, not a good one. Untypical for the elven race (except when you follow some novels which portray the elves as being neutral, close to evil. they are perfect...for a chaotic alignment |
| Alediran10-26-07, 08:57 AM | So there is not this widespread dragon paranoia you say, especially not with the elves as there are several dragons serving with the Evermeet military. Most of the Dragonriders are sleeping on stasis after fighting the dragons during the last "natural" Dracorage, they are not active. Wrong. A good aligned political will most ofthe time make good aligned decisions. And when he constantly acts against the common alignment of the people he represents there will be quite an uproarespecially in a chaotic society like the elven one. WRONG. Good aligned politicians can make bad decisions, they aren't perfect automatons who can only do good. Seriously, your vision of alignments is even more black and white than the system itself. The BoED clearly states that two good nations can fight between themselves. I can give you an example of this: A human hamlet (good) suddenly has an influx of immigrants, therefore the need to increase it size. There is a forest near the town that the ruler of the city attempts to log for wood to construct new homes (good for the new people, because they will have a place to live). When they begin to chop wood, a group of elves (good, and the forest is more important for them than human lives) appear from the woods, telling them to stop cutting trees or they will be attacked if somebody from the town does that again. The leader weights his decision, he is caught between agreeing with the elves' words or continue the logging operation. The newcomers pressure the ruler of the city to continue the deforestation to make homes for them or they will leave the city and form a bandit group to attack the city. The mayor now has no other choice but continue to cut trees because he thought that the elves weren't such a big threat. Because of that poor judgment, the hamlet no longer exists, it was attacked by the elven army the next day after the lumberjacks insulted them when they came again to order them to stop cutting trees. And there you have, two good groups that fought between them. What you describe is not how a CG person would behave. Saying that because you can't save two people you don't need to save at least one of them is simply stupid. And the elves did have the ability to save a lot of metallic dragons, innocent farmers who were killed by the raging metallics and deal a blow to the chromatic dragons by simply protecting the metallic dragons with the King Killer shield. To begin with, metallic dragons went to hibernate every time the King Killer Star appeared, they knew that this prevented them from becoming enraged. Cristal dragons planeshifted to protect themselves. Only chromatic dragons felt to the effects of the rage en mase. And survival of the fittest is not a good concept either but a neutral one. It seems you have to read the alignment section in teh PHB a few times. Just because one is good aligned it doesn't means that they are hippies (we wouldn't have paladins if that was the case). Elminster is good aligned but believes that people should solve their problems, because if somebody else does it for them, they don't grow. Survival of the fittest can be seen as the capacity for an individual to become better than he or she is. If somebody else made your homework when you went to school, would you have learned something? Elves are wise, they know that if they solve everybody's problems, they deny them the possibility of growth. Anyway, there is absolutly no disadvantage to protecting the metallic dragons from the rage and it would be "in character" for CG elves. Except that they didn't have the need to protect them, the metallic dragons new how to do it for themselves. Or didn't you read that a council of good dragons determined during YotRD that they needed to go hibernate to avoid the effects of the rage? Destroying the Mythal would have the disadvantage that chromatics also wouldn't be affected by the rage anymore but compared to how many lives that saves it is a small price. There would be less lives if chromatic dragons where free of that problem, they would became bolder and their numbers will be higher, it's easier to kill raging dragons that can't cast spells and think rationally. All your arguments make sense for a neutral or evil society, but not for a good one. Again, a neutral behavior, not a good one. Untypical for the elven race (except when you follow some novels which portray the elves as being neutral, close to evil. Queen Amlauril, who is CG, didn't approved of Seiveril's crusade because of political reasons (she would loose much if she approved it, even if she felt is was the right thing to do). You need to consider more facts that just alignment, you need to consider politics too, and even good aligned rulers have to deal with them. Drizzt wasn't allowed to enter Silverymoon the first time he tried, and Alustriel told him that she couldn't allow him to enter, because there were political faction that would be angry if they saw a drow inside the city, and would try to depose her rule. Which is something bad, because it would not be something smooth, it would involve destruction of things she helped to create, and there would be death, something more important than allowing one good drow the permission to enter the city. Even Spock said it: The needs of the many precede the needs of the few. |
| Derren S.10-26-07, 09:13 AM | Most of the Dragonriders are sleeping on stasis after fighting the dragons during the last "natural" Dracorage, they are not active. Which is also a very stupid thing to do, but that is another topic. WRONG. Good aligned politicians can make bad decisions, they aren't perfect automatons who can only do good. Sure, they can make non good decisions but over time they will do more decisions which fit their alignment than not. To begin with, metallic dragons went to hibernate every time the King Killer Star appeared, they knew that this prevented them from becoming enraged. See the rage novel for how well that works. Just because one is good aligned it doesn't means that they are hippies (we wouldn't have paladins if that was the case). You don't have to be a hippy to help someone in need. Without that good wouldn't be different from neutral. Elves are wise, they know that if they solve everybody's problems, they deny them the possibility of growth. The problem is that the elves created this problem. So its not letting someone else overcome his problem but preventing to let others suffer from their own decisions. Except that they didn't have the need to protect them, the metallic dragons new how to do it for themselves. Or didn't you read that a council of good dragons determined during YotRD that they needed to go hibernate to avoid the effects of the rage? Again, read the book to see how well it worked (and continue to see how much damage the raging chromatic dragons all across Faerun. There would be less lives if chromatic dragons where free of that problem, they would became bolder and their numbers will be higher, it's easier to kill raging dragons that can't cast spells and think rationally.[/quote] Or maybe the metallic dragons, now also freed from the rage, will keep the chromatics in check? Because thats exactly what is happening now. Drizzt wasn't allowed to enter Silverymoon the first time he tried, and Alustriel told him that she couldn't allow him to enter, because there were political faction that would be angry if they saw a drow inside the city, and would try to depose her rule. So did she order the troops to kill Drizzt? There is a difference between not letting someone entering a city, but treating him with respect and letting thousands of good and innocent creatures die. Even Spock said it: The needs of the many precede the needs of the few. And I could quote Kirk who said the exact opposite thing. Now who of those two is CG? |
| Alediran10-26-07, 10:00 AM | Which is also a very stupid thing to do, but that is another topic. It's not stupid, it's what they did every time the King Killer Star appeared in the skies. That's why the Dracorage flights where composed mostly of chromatic dragons. Sure, they can make non good decisions but over time they will do more decisions which fit their alignment than not. There was a president in my country, considered the best and the only incorruptible president we had. When he attempted to improve my country, the old money aristocrats went mad and asked the military to take him down from the president's seat. He was the only president who wanted to change Argentina and he couldn't change anything. Politics and the establishment didn't allowed him to rule. The same would have applied to Amlauril if she publicly approved of Seiveril's crusade. See the rage novel for how well that works. It's the exception rather than the rule. You don't have to be a hippy to help someone in need. Without that good wouldn't be different from neutral. Don't give a fish to somebody hungry, taught him to catch his own fish. The wise man know that there are different kind of help. If you resolve problems for them, you don't allow them to learn, if you give them a nudge on the right direction, they will learn and grow. Destroying the dracorage mythal is akin to give fish to somebody hungry, you resolve the immediate problem but the real problem is still there (evil dragons now at full capacity and knowing that they are no longer in danger to loose what they build, that's why Tchazzar came back). Keeping the Mythal allowed the hungry to learn how to catch fish (defeat the dragons without giving them the capacity to become tyrants again). The problem is that the elves created this problem. So its not letting someone else overcome his problem but preventing to let others suffer from their own decisions. They haven't created a problem, they solved a bigger problem, which was Dragon Tyrants who held so much power that they would have never allowed humanity to raise. Now that they are free again, Dragon Tyrants will come back, and humanity is in peril to revert to a primitive state, a single red dragon can destroy large regions of Faerūn without problem. Or maybe the metallic dragons, now also freed from the rage, will keep the chromatics in check? Because thats exactly what is happening now. Metallic dragons weren't affected by the rage because they knew how to protect themselves. There where only rare cases when a metallic dragon succumbed to rage, and it was because of bad judgment. So did she order the troops to kill Drizzt? There is a difference between not letting someone entering a city, but treating him with respect and letting thousands of good and innocent creatures die. It's an analogy, but it seems that you can't understand them. There are reasons behind decision, and the reason behind keeping the Mythal was to stop any possibility that dragons would rise again as tyrants. People would die one way or the other, but the former still gave them the possibility of living they way they choose, while the latter means that they would be slaves to dragons. And I could quote Kirk who said the exact opposite thing. Now who of those two is CG? Kirk wasn't exactly CG either. And the best judgment was Spock's. He choose to sacrifice his life so the Enterprise wasn't destroyed by the Genesis explosion. |
| Derren S.10-26-07, 01:18 PM | It's not stupid, it's what they did every time the King Killer Star appeared in the skies. That's why the Dracorage flights where composed mostly of chromatic dragons. The rage novel talks about the disadvantages of going to sleep. You are extremly vulnerable while sleeping. And as the Evermeet Elves have knowledge of the King Killer Shield there is no reason for those dragons to go into stasis. Putting an allied dragon into stasis is the most stupid thing you can do as the dragon grows more powerfull over time. There was a president in my country, considered the best and the only incorruptible president we had. When he attempted to improve my country, the old money aristocrats went mad and asked the military to take him down from the president's seat. He was the only president who wanted to change Argentina and he couldn't change anything. Politics and the establishment didn't allowed him to rule. And what has this to do with alignment? I don't think the majority of people in Argentinia are CG. It's the exception rather than the rule. Also read about the disadvantages of going to sleep during the rage... Don't give a fish to somebody hungry, taught him to catch his own fish. The wise man know that there are different kind of help. If you resolve problems for them, you don't allow them to learn, if you give them a nudge on the right direction, they will learn and grow. Destroying the dracorage mythal is akin to give fish to somebody hungry, you resolve the immediate problem but the real problem is still there (evil dragons now at full capacity and knowing that they are no longer in danger to loose what they build, that's why Tchazzar came back). Keeping the Mythal allowed the hungry to learn how to catch fish (defeat the dragons without giving them the capacity to become tyrants again). What you forgot in this analogy is that you are the one who burned down the mans field and made him hungry in the first place. The elves were the cause of the rage and now that the dragons are responsible to cope with it without offering any sort of help is not good at all. They haven't created a problem, they solved a bigger problem, which was Dragon Tyrants who held so much power that they would have never allowed humanity to raise. Now that they are free again, Dragon Tyrants will come back, and humanity is in peril to revert to a primitive state, a single red dragon can destroy large regions of Faerūn without problem. All lore says that a single red dragon is not able to do what you saya. Also the humanoid races are now so powerfull to repell any dragon attacks (at a cost, but they would win). Saying that without the Mythal the dragons would rule again is nonsense. Metallic dragons weren't affected by the rage because they knew how to protect themselves. There where only rare cases when a metallic dragon succumbed to rage, and it was because of bad judgment. The metallic dragons were affected by the rage. Some where caught in it and raged while others had to sleep (possibly being killed while sleeping) or had to flee (and possibly being abmushed or those who lived under the protection of the dragon were killed) It's an analogy, but it seems that you can't understand them. There are reasons behind decision, and the reason behind keeping the Mythal was to stop any possibility that dragons would rise again as tyrants. People would die one way or the other, but the former still gave them the possibility of living they way they choose, while the latter means that they would be slaves to dragons. You talk about dragons becoming tyrans again as if it is certain. But it is not, far from it. By now the humanoid races can repell any wannabe tyrant dragon and the metallic dragons have learned from the past and changed their way. So the elves knowingly let thousands, probably millions over the then thousand years where the rage persisted, people and good creatures die to prevent the unlikely event that dragons might some day rise as tyrants again and the humanoid races were unable to stop them. Kirk wasn't exactly CG either. And the best judgment was Spock's. He choose to sacrifice his life so the Enterprise wasn't destroyed by the Genesis explosion. Yes, but later Kirk fixed this, something the elves never did. They would have left Spok on the planet and accepted that Bones went mad. |
| Alediran10-26-07, 01:54 PM | The rage novel talks about the disadvantages of going to sleep. You are extremly vulnerable while sleeping. And as the Evermeet Elves have knowledge of the King Killer Shield there is no reason for those dragons to go into stasis. Putting an allied dragon into stasis is the most stupid thing you can do as the dragon grows more powerfull over time. Not all elves had idea of the King Killer Shield. BTW, how many elves appeared in the novels? If they were few then you should blame the author for not doing his homework before writing. And the Dragonriders of Evermeet had to be put to stasis or they would have died, they can only act when there is dire danger to Evermeet, and IIRC they can only awaken one time, after that they die. And what has this to do with alignment? I don't think the majority of people in Argentinia are CG. Most are actually CN. The analogy was to show you that alignment isn't the only think you need to consider when judging someone's actions. Also read about the disadvantages of going to sleep during the rage... Better than rage sure. What you forgot in this analogy is that you are the one who burned down the mans field and made him hungry in the first place. The elves were the cause of the rage and now that the dragons are responsible to cope with it without offering any sort of help is not good at all. Elves didn't burned the man's field and made him hungry. The elves made him a free person. All lore says that a single red dragon is not able to do what you saya. Also the humanoid races are now so powerfull to repell any dragon attacks (at a cost, but they would win). Saying that without the Mythal the dragons would rule again is nonsense. A single raging red dragon of enough power can do A LOT of damage, look at what Garnet did during the Weeping War to the Army of Darkness, and he was young by draconic standard. A normal Great Wyrm Red Dragon at full capacity (no raging) can kill even powerful Archmages without too much effort. There are many Red dragons on Faerūn that are beyond the power of the MM Great Wyrm Red Dragon, Klauth can cast epic spells, Inferno is a "beast", Tchazzar is a demi-god, and so on. If Tchazzar wanted to attack Aglarond, The Simbul would be in a tight spot, she would probably be almost killed and the whole country would be destroyed because nobody there can fight against a demi-god. Imagine that scene, but with dozens of Dragons with the power they had before the Time of Elves... Not even the most powerful cities or kingdoms could stand in their way. And Metallic Dragons would only fight with them if they attack the areas where they live. The metallic dragons were affected by the rage. Some where caught in it and raged while others had to sleep (possibly being killed while sleeping) or had to flee (and possibly being abmushed or those who lived under the protection of the dragon were killed) Yes, I know, that is why the whole fight about what to do. But on past Rages they weren't that affected. You talk about dragons becoming tyrans again as if it is certain. But it is not, far from it. By now the humanoid races can repell any wannabe tyrant dragon and the metallic dragons have learned from the past and changed their way. One dragon couldn't do something like that, ten dragons could maybe do a little impact. Hundreds of dragons with the power they had during their time would crush every humanoid kingdom into olbivion. The only city that could be "safe" would be Waterdeep thanks to the anti-dragon Mythal (safe, if the owner of the staff that allows a dragon to enter the city wants it). Not even Evermeet is protected against an army of Dragons, during the last natural rage the dragon flight passed the defenses of the Seldarine. Metallic Dragons aren't as powerful as chromatic dragons. Unless they have Tymora on their sides and are Gold or Silver Dragons most fights with chromatics end in victory for the evil ones. So the elves knowingly let thousands, probably millions over the then thousand years where the rage persisted, people and good creatures die to prevent the unlikely event that dragons might some day rise as tyrants again and the humanoid races were unable to stop them. Most elves never knew about the Dracorage Mythal. Hell, most elves can't recognize a High Mage even if it's in front of them. High Mages don't tell their secrets to others and most High Magic secrets are lost even to them. Yes, but later Kirk fixed this, something the elves never did. They would have left Spok on the planet and accepted that Bones went mad. He fixed it, but fixing it didn't required to give the klingons the Genesis Torpedo. |
| Derren S.10-26-07, 04:09 PM | N And the Dragonriders of Evermeet had to be put to stasis or they would have died, they can only act when there is dire danger to Evermeet, and IIRC they can only awaken one time, after that they die. So why put the dragons in stasis when the dragonriders will die otherwise? The dragons would still get more powerfull and when thhey have to defend Evermeet would know the current political and strategical situation. Most are actually CN. The analogy was to show you that alignment isn't the only think you need to consider when judging someone's actions. But alignment plays a large part in it, especially when its not only one man but a whole race. The problem is that the lore and novels portray Sun Elves as being mostl LN and not CG which they should be. Better than rage sure. Letting the dragons choose between a bad and even worse fate when teh elves had a simple solution for it doesn't make it any more good. Elves didn't burned the man's field and made him hungry. The elves made him a free person. If the man is a metallic dragon the elves did burn down his field. Without the elves keeping the Mythals in place and not providing the metallic dragons with the King Killer Shield there would be no need to "learn fishing". A single raging red dragon of enough power can do A LOT of damage, look at what Garnet did during the Weeping War to the Army of Darkness, and he was young by draconic standard. A normal Great Wyrm Red Dragon at full capacity (no raging) can kill even powerful Archmages without too much effort. There are many Red dragons on Faerūn that are beyond the power of the MM Great Wyrm Red Dragon, Klauth can cast epic spells, Inferno is a "beast", Tchazzar is a demi-god, and so on. If Tchazzar wanted to attack Aglarond, The Simbul would be in a tight spot, she would probably be almost killed and the whole country would be destroyed because nobody there can fight against a demi-god. Tchezzar is a wimp (bad spell setup) and no match for a chosen. And when you read Klauths entry you will see that archmages have made a habit out of hunting troublesome dragons. They just had something more to do without the Mythal but in the end the humanoid races would prevail as they are much stronger than the dragons, especially when the metallic dragons help. And all that with few less innocent casulties like with the Mythal Imagine that scene, but with dozens of Dragons with the power they had before the Time of Elves... Not even the most powerful cities or kingdoms could stand in their way. And Metallic Dragons would only fight with them if they attack the areas where they live. Thats pretty silly. Now as the Mythal is gone the two dragon species are prepareing for a war against each other. So no "The metallics won't attack unless they are invaded". Yes, I know, that is why the whole fight about what to do. But on past Rages they weren't that affected. Can you quote where it says that? One dragon couldn't do something like that, ten dragons could maybe do a little impact. Hundreds of dragons with the power they had during their time would crush every humanoid kingdom into olbivion. The only city that could be "safe" would be Waterdeep thanks to the anti-dragon Mythal (safe, if the owner of the staff that allows a dragon to enter the city wants it). Not even Evermeet is protected against an army of Dragons, during the last natural rage the dragon flight passed the defenses of the Seldarine. Considering that two dozend or more dragons, some even classed, couldn't destroy a monastry without heavy losses Faerun does not have much to fear from dragons. Metallic Dragons aren't as powerful as chromatic dragons. Unless they have Tymora on their sides and are Gold or Silver Dragons most fights with chromatics end in victory for the evil ones. [quote] The MM says something completely differen't. A Gold dragons is stronger than any other core dragon and silvers too would win against an equally old red dragons, especially because the good dragons cooperate.[quote] Most elves never knew about the Dracorage Mythal. Hell, most elves can't recognize a High Mage even if it's in front of them. High Mages don't tell their secrets to others and most High Magic secrets are lost even to them. Ok, its just the high mages and the rulers who are non good jerks. He fixed it, but fixing it didn't required to give the klingons the Genesis Torpedo. You are correct. But the elves don't even try to fix things, even though the chance that something bad would happen is very slim. So it seems tha Kirk is more good thant Usually CG elves. Now for the chaotic part... I guess when this discussion is done the only thing which will be proven is that Captain Kirk is a better elf than most high mages. |
| Zsych10-26-07, 07:14 PM | I think risking the return of another species to power over your own is hardly sensible, after you've defeated them. There's a practical limit to being good and I've always suspected that elves are good mostly with respect to their own culture and towards their own people. Empathy for an oversized and ugly lizard doesn't seem to be a requirement for being good to me. There is also the issue that most great elven high magic works are also considered accidents of sorts. The sundering was not what they had intended. The conversion of all dark-skinned elves to drow was not what they had intended. The destruction of Jhaamdath was not what they had intended. Elven high mages wield lots of power, they don't necessarily know how to use it well, especially so I would think for newly created rituals. |
| meto3010-26-07, 08:24 PM | Ah, and just imagine the amount of controversy people would go into if someone asked what alignment president Park was. President Park Jung-Hee, president of the Republic of Korea 1963-1979 assasinated in office A military dictator who rose to power by a military coup d'etat, Park sought power for 'patriotic reasons'. Concluding, from the long age of fumbling Koreans had with democracy and diplomacy, that the Korean people was incapable of harnessing their own freedom, Park took control of the nation and imposed an autocratic government. With stern laws to keep order in place, Park initiated a long series of economic and cultural campaigns that were centered around improving national infrastructure and creating giant corporations that could compete in the world (Samsung, LG, Doosan, Hyundai, and all other major corporations were founded in this time). With the Saemaeul campaign, he literally rebuilt the nation. The smoldering ruin which was Korea became the new powerhouse of East Asia. Late in his terms of office, president Park faced protest. Students and factory workers were unhappy with what their nation was doing. A cult of Engels and Marx grew in the student society, and soon there was socialist meetings in the country; all were brutally oppressed, since there was a socialist country to the north (Democratic People's Republic of Korea) and any socialist movement could prove disastrous for national sercurity. This oppression led to a student revolt. Thousands of students hit the streets, crying for liberty, and when Martial Law was imposed, they turned into a riot. Molotov Cocktails were hurled at the police force, and clubs were wielded. Eventually, the military opened fire. Under the gunfire, students were even more enraged. However the riot was oppressed. No one was that brave. While having a private meal, Park was assinated by his former adviser, Kim, who was former head of the Korean Central Intelligence Agency. After a short term of office held by a contingency government, power went to another General, marshal Jeon Doo-Hwan. Term of Jeon is argued to be the darkest time Korea had ever seen; but Jeon continued his predecessor's campaign to build large corporations, and these companies still empower our nation today, acting as Park's legacy to a people who came to forget his efforts and remember only the guns fired at Gwanju city. |
| 18DELTA10-27-07, 12:16 AM | Yeah I was in Korea when Kim Il Sung died in 1994. I hope I spelled his name right. It was a saturday morning when the news hit. My squad leader was CQ(charge of quarters)that day, he asked me to get a count of all personel in the barracks. Out of 240 personel, only 34 were in the barracks. The rest were well, probably still getting hammered in Yongsan(down south that is). That afternoon, Top had a muster formation to brief us on what was happening, and there was only 80 something personel, that had made it back to the company area. He said that if we went on alert in the next 48 hours, it was on. Well 5 days later, and the whole 2nd Infantry Division went on alert, we stayed on alert for 3 days, lined up, locked, cocked, and ready to rock. I was dead and I didnt even know it. Good thing the barrage of artillery never came. I slept in a 5ton cargo truck for 3 days eating MREs, 120 5.56mm M16a2 rounds. Man those were the days, sorry about the thread hijack. Meto30 got me thinking. Hey Meto30 were you in the ROK Army, or were you a Katusa with the US army? If you dont mind me asking. I really loved Korea when I was stationed there in the 2nd Infantry Division. Camp Casey in the house!!! :) Support the Troops!!!:D |
| ExtinctionBeta10-27-07, 04:33 AM | Say, how old are you really? That crud is totally out of line. I understand good natured fun, but some things just cross the line.Quit being a Troll all right. Play fair or dont play at all ok. Nothing personal, just grow up.;) Oh God..I am 19. I was getting comfortable because I thought puritan was trying to tell me not to get defensive and everyone jokes around. But I guess I was wrong. If someone makes a joke to me...it's a joke...if I make one back, I am a terrible person. That's why I like Lord and Red_wizard...they don't hold grudges, once they saw I was trying to be a better poster..they eased on me. But in some none-open minded people, no matter how hard you try, everything is black and white to them in their eyes from here on out. What can I do to please you? I am not afraid of being wrong or improving myself and am always open for suggestions. |
| Derren S.10-27-07, 06:06 AM | I think risking the return of another species to power over your own is hardly sensible, after you've defeated them. Such a reasoning would practically allow every race to preform genocide on all other races. |
| Zsych10-27-07, 07:13 PM | Aah, but they didn't exterminate the dragons. However, letting the dragons have the chance to dominate Toril and thus the elves also again, is stupid. In the nature of good, you must be loyal to your family, friends and race first. If a human works to the benefit of the elven race, so that they can be at peace and achieve their dreams while humans lose a chance to achieve theirs in the process, then that human is just a traitor(with respect to humans of course). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-27-07, 09:16 PM | Oh God..I am 19. I was getting comfortable because I thought puritan was trying to tell me not to get defensive and everyone jokes around. But I guess I was wrong. If someone makes a joke to me...it's a joke...if I make one back, I am a terrible person. That's why I like Lord and Red_wizard...they don't hold grudges, once they saw I was trying to be a better poster..they eased on me. But in some none-open minded people, no matter how hard you try, everything is black and white to them in their eyes from here on out. What can I do to please you? I am not afraid of being wrong or improving myself and am always open for suggestions. Liar. If you were really sincere, you wouldn't be trying to incite drama about Paul Kemp or the other posters here. What a tool. |
| meto3010-28-07, 10:47 AM | @18Delta: I am a college student. I'm due for conscription in the next six years for the obligatory 2-year service. Failing to submit to conscription is a capital offense punishable by imprisonment or death. But still, I am yet to enter military service. Thus I am a 'boy' in Korean terms. :D I am a serious studier of Korean history, and an active conservative. And I tend to get hot when it comes to president Park, or North Korea. I believe the current government is throwing more insults at the military regime then is appropriate. But that is a serious political theme here, so I will not explain further. And I am thankful that you loved my country. While my nation has many charms, it also has nearly equal amount of ugliness (and what modern nation does not?), and I thank you for your sign of goodwill. But alas, many of my peers do not think so highly of America, and its army. I don't know if you saw this event, but if you didn't then you are fortunate that you didn't have to see the massive protests that occured when an APC overran two school girls in a traffic accident. Some students assaulted a US army base armed with clubs and molotov cocktails, with a clear intention of killing US soldiers. When they faced trial, some ten thousand college students gathered to protest, claiming that what they did was a patriotic act and that the government should encourage other people to do the same, not prosecute them. I only looked at the news coverage with disgust; even the reporters were sympathetic with the mob. I fear emotion is besting reason these days. Even the current president seems incapable of overcoming rage. PS: You spelled his name correctly. PSS: Since all Korean males have to enter military service, many are knowledgeble in military terminology. My father and my grandfather both served their time, and from them I've learned much. PSSS: North Korea claims that South Korea's protest at its nuclear program is proof of that the South is honorless, pointing out that it was the South that started the arms race. And this claim is not groundless, for President Park DID order a massive improvement of South Korean weapons. It was at this time that the production of Korean weaponry started. The K2 rifle, K1 tank, and the K9 self-propelled howitzer were all designed under Park's orders. This is but one of the many things the nation owes to the assasinated president. |
| 18DELTA10-28-07, 05:27 PM | Cool! Meto30, I started playing D&D in Korea in 1996. I was on a 40 day detail supporting the"Expert Field Medical Badge" that PACOM, put on in May of 1996, at "Warrior Base" just south of the Z The setting Forgotten Realms. That where I met the Realms, about 1800 meters south of the DMZ, at a little camp that we were stationed at for those 40 days. On our off time, we would head to the supply tent and game it up!:D Good ol Waterdeep!;) I met some really nice folks over there. Yeah there were times, my fellow country mem & women would act very foolish. I guess thats people for ya. Well good luck when you time to serve comes!:) |
| GothicDan10-28-07, 05:32 PM | I guess when this discussion is done the only thing which will be proven is that Captain Kirk is a better elf than most high mages. Not at all. Physiologically speaking, he is entirely human. High Mages are unique even among elven Archmages because they possess a sense of harmony with the Elven community at large than even most Elves do not feel - hence a tendency less towards Chaotic alignments. |
| Zsych10-28-07, 11:45 PM | If I recall the 2E stuff correctly. I thought that where they may have become closer to nature and the Weave, elven high mages gave up part of their elven nature like the desire to go to arvandor, and such to become high mages. ... then again, now that I recall more... their ability to cast high magic required an almost telepathic communion so that they would be able to manage the casting of spells more complex than one mage could handle... ... I suppose that might mean that they might be more in tune with elves, or they may just be able to be more in tune with the Weave and others similarly attuned to the Weave. .......... chooses to stop talking randomly :P |
| Lord Karsus10-30-07, 10:32 AM | @Lord Karsus I know that this discrepancy was created with the introduction of the Dracorage Mythal, but that is Canon now and we have to deal with it. It simply means that the elves act very unlogical and against their alignment. -As such, you are going to get some actions that make not a lot of sense, when compared to previous canon. That's the nature of the beast. I'm not saying to quit discussing it, but any answers that we come up with are going to be..."wierd". |
| Lord Karsus10-30-07, 10:32 AM | The only thing I am wondering is, if Lolth were to be destroyed (Oh I hope), would they Drow still carry on with thier society? Or do they act out of fear of her only. Nothing would be gained from becomming the most powerful house other than watching your back. So in theory...if Lolth dies...individuality begians from the Drow. They will flock to the surface, with the exception of a few fanatics. -In all likelihood, Drow society would continue as it does now, only with a different deity/deities as their source of power. |