Drow City Golothaer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drow City Golothaer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Endoryan
12-03-07, 09:11 AM I'm lookin for information on the Drow city Golothaer from where Menzoberra came from.

Does anybody know where the city is located? Is there any information about the history of this city especially during the crown wars?
Zireael
12-03-07, 09:23 AM AFAIR, the city is now fallen and it lay somewhere in the North.
Shiftkitty
12-03-07, 03:33 PM I thought Menzoberra and her people were migrating from somewhere in the south? Can't recall where I got that from, but damn it! Now that I think about it, it might be important to my "Return of the Miyeritar Kings" campaign.
MarkusTay63
12-04-07, 02:44 PM I thought the same, for some reason, but I can't seem to find it in sources. The only thing that is clear that the Drow travelled for quite a long time and faced many hardships enroute (including wiping out a Dwarf settlement) before reaching the Cavern of Many Eyes (current Menzoberranzan). Both histories I checked never mentioned the south, but because they indicate that the journey was "long and perilous", one would have to assume that it was either south or east, since the other two directions do not really extend very far (they do, but that would be off the map, really). Now, considering that Anauroch's Underdark was un-traversible until recently, it's a good bet that Golothaer was far to the south.

Also, all of the Drow originally migrated from the south at some point, and the Drow's main city (Guallidurth) and their original city (Telantiwar) were both located to the far south as well, and Golothaer appears to have been a very large early settlement, indicating it would probably have been near those two.

Now, if anyone finds a difinitive source as to what direction it was in, I would find it very helpful for my Dark Elven Cities article for the Elven Netbook. ;)
Shiftkitty
12-04-07, 03:28 PM I hope it's to the south. All of the research being conduicted my the major NPCs in my campaign has been based around that notion. If it turns out to be wrong, all of Menzoberranzan is going to hear some colorful and very un-archmagey language coming from Gromph's office...:eek:
HralorpAxpain
12-04-07, 03:59 PM From the sources I've checked, it is not clear where Golothaer was. Eryndlyn was in the High Moor though.

Surprisingly, there is no mention of Golothaer in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. There is a mention of Golothaer in 2e Accessory Demihuman Deities under the Drow pantheon though.

The Menzoberranzan Box mentions Golothaer several times (pp. 22-25), but mentions nowhere where the drow city was located.

Volo's Guide to All Things Magical mentions Golothaer (p. 123), but again, there is no clue as to where it was located.

I do not believe there any sources that mention the city's whereabouts, I am afraid.

I guess you can put it wherever you like.
HralorpAxpain
12-04-07, 05:06 PM Further to my previous message:

3.5e Underdark supplement mentions (p. 162) "Menzoberra the Kinless, a powerful priestess of Lolth, founded the city that bears her name in -3917 DR. At the behest of the Spider Queen, she led seven drow families into the Northdark from the southerly drow holdings of Great Bhaerynden."

No mention of Golothaer, but rather, we get a mention of Great Bhaerynden (located below the Shaar), which was dwarven, until the drow invaded. The drow cities within Great Bhaerynden were/are: Guallidurth, Llurth Dreir and Tlindhet.

Does anyone know where the Black Axe Clan of Dwarves was located? The drow of Menzoberra wiped them out on their way to Menzoberranzan, so I should think they were not too far south of Menzoberranzan, as it seems they didn't take that long after this, to find the cavern of Many Eyes.

It seems that maybe Golothaer may have been located nearby to Great Bhaerynden but no source specifically mentions its location.

Addendum: for those who may not know, the seven drow families that travelled with Menzoberra, were: S'sril, Thaeyalla, Baenre, Masq'il'yr, Nasadra, Tucheth and Uusralla.
Zanan
12-05-07, 04:09 AM The Menzoberranzan box is (that Volo guide remark aside) the one and only source that gives any detail on Golothaer. From the info in the box, one gets the impression that the city lies somewhere in the north-western region of mainland Faerūn, most likely to the east of Menzo and north of the High Forest. Maybe the designers can help.

And, BTW, the Crown Wars - at least up to the Descent (-10,000 D.R.) - had nothing to do with Golothaer (who was surely found post Descent). Have a look into the Elven Timeline of Faerūn (Cormanthyr, free download at the main site) for all the details on the Crown Wars.

Obviously, the drow (not the pre-Descent dark elves) played bit part roles in the Crown Wars after that, but did not take part in them as such.
HralorpAxpain
12-05-07, 03:07 PM I've just re-read the relavent passages in the Menzoberranzan Box and the only hint that Golothaer was not located in the south, is in reference to the former drow city Cloibbra, which was located in the south. It also seems that Golothaer maybe was not that far away, because refugee drow arrived from Golothaer to Menzoberranzan and it was stated earlier in the text, that the original journey by Menzoberra and the seven houses she travelled with, found it difficult to navigate through the Underdark.

I do find it odd that Golothaer was not mentioned in 3.xE, was it perhaps retconned?

Looking at the Black Axe Clan a bit closer... it seems this cavern/city is now occupied by Grimlock. The Cavern of Cloven Heads is located within the environs of Ched Nasad and not far from the former Dwarven city of Ammarindar. Now looking at the Underdark Map of Faerun, found in 3.5e Supplement Underdark, it shows that Ammarindar is located south east of Menzoberranzan, suggesting that maybe Golothaer was either further south or further east (perhaps in The Buried Realms or closer to Maerimydra perhaps).

So you could be correct in your assumption that Golothaer was located in the east (perhaps under the High Forest).
MarkusTay63
12-06-07, 03:08 PM The sad part is, I would love to connect the Drow of the NE with the Dark Elves of Miyeritar, who seemed to have just 'vanished'. The problem with that is that the NE Drow seem to be the MOST Lolth-o-centric of the bunch, which points straight to the Illythiir, not the Miyeritar. AFAIK, the Miyeritar Dark Elves were neutral to good, and did not worship Lolth at any point. Since the novel Blackstaff, we now know where quite a few of the Miyeritar Elves have gotten too, so there probably aren't any 'Drow' cities related to that group at all, and all of the NE Drow cities have become more fanatical about their worship, mostly do to Menzoberranzan's competition with Gaullidurth for divine favor (but that's pure conjecture).

Araumycos appears to be ancient, and clogs up most of the underdark below the High Forest, although there might have been a large clear area in the distant past. In fact, wouldn't it be a kick in the head if Golothaer was at the center of Araumycos, and is somehow responsible for it? :D

Just checking my map of Drow settlements and there seems to be a vacancy in the Turmish vicinity - it would be a decent candidate. The history in Menzoberranzn indicates the journey was VERY long, so I wouldn't think it was within NE Faerūn, but somewhere just outside of it. Once again, pure conjecture.

The one thing that bothers me is that it appears the folks who created Ched Nasad "continued on" after Menzoberranzan was settled, which actually makes the region of Ten Towns more logical to fit that text - had they come from the south, they would have had to double-back to settle Ched Nasad, and then one would have to ask "why didn't they just settle THERE in the first place?

Unless, of course, Ched Nasad is the cavern where that Dwarf Clan lived - the Black Axe, which would then cause the south to be a the favored direction once again.

I think I'll "ask Ed" over at CK. :)
Zanan
12-06-07, 05:00 PM I doubt that Golothaer was ever "mapped". Do keep in mind that Underdark travel can take ages, so it could well be that Golothaer was within 50 to 100 miles of Menzo and/or Ched Nasad, but the journey was simply difficult and all.
HralorpAxpain
12-07-07, 06:48 AM I suspect you're correct with the assumption that Golothaer has never been mapped. As I said, there is no mention of it in 3.0/3.5e, as far as I am aware, which makes me suspect the drow city of Golothaer has been removed from Faerunian lore. Is it mentioned in GHotR?

Markus, it would be good to hear to see if Ed Greenwood knows anything further over at Candlekeep. I do check the forums over there occasionally, but if you do find anything out, could you be so kind and post the response here?

I also understand your position on Ched Nasad... it does seem they may have gone through the caverns there on their way to Menzoberranzan... but maybe not.
Krash
12-08-07, 05:04 AM Just checking my map of Drow settlements and there seems to be a vacancy in the Turmish vicinity - it would be a decent candidate. The history in Menzoberranzn indicates the journey was VERY long, so I wouldn't think it was within NE Faerūn, but somewhere just outside of it. Once again, pure conjecture.

Undraeth

-- George Krashos
Shiftkitty
12-08-07, 12:48 PM MarkusTay-The sad part is, I would love to connect the Drow of the NE with the Dark Elves of Miyeritar, who seemed to have just 'vanished'. The problem with that is that the NE Drow seem to be the MOST Lolth-o-centric of the bunch, which points straight to the Illythiir, not the Miyeritar.

This can be easily worked in. People in a desperate situation tend to cling to anything that gives them hope (qv. the Nazi party, Jonestown, etc.). So the Miyeritari, given Lloth as their apparent only hope, could hardly be blamed for following her alongside the Illythiir. Maybe not all of them did, just as not every German toddled along mindlessly after Uncle Adolph, but those that did became the ones that survived.
MarkusTay63
12-09-07, 03:33 AM Well, with 11,000+ years of history, ANYTHING is possible, but I'd just rather not associate the Illythiir Drow with the Miyeritar Dark Elves - their story was sad enough without them coming to that end (bitter, back-stabbing, Lolth worshippers). I'd like to think they had a 'nobler' destiny, and hopefully when I read the next Schend novel I'll find out if I was right.

Undraeth

-- George KrashosAhhh... Okay.

The map is only half-finished, so I should have suspected something would fill that empty spot.

Haven't gotten to the 'U's yet. ;)
Zanan
12-09-07, 04:38 AM Well, with 11,000+ years of history, ANYTHING is possible, but I'd just rather not associate the Illythiir Drow with the Miyeritar Dark Elves - their story was sad enough without them coming to that end (bitter, back-stabbing, Lolth worshippers). I'd like to think they had a 'nobler' destiny, and hopefully when I read the next Schend novel I'll find out if I was right.

Ahhh... Okay.

The map is only half-finished, so I should have suspected something would fill that empty spot.

Haven't gotten to the 'U's yet. ;)

Well, have a look into that part of history in TGHoF. They make it pretty clear who was at fault when it comes to the demise of Miyeritar. And one should keep in mind that there is no nation as a whole which is noble and clean and good and all. You'd find your fair share of baddies everywhere, be it Miyeritar, Myth Drannor, Evermeet and what have you. Obviously, not all of those are demonworshippers and bloodletters galore.
Zireael
12-10-07, 09:29 AM I think Golothaer was somewhere in SE, according to it.
Endoryan
12-19-07, 12:41 PM thx a lot for your answers... :-)

Since it seems that there aren't any hints for the exact location of Golothaer I think I will locate it according to the territorial expansion of Ilythiiri / Drow after their "Descent" (-10.0000). Guallidurth (-9.600) seems to be the first mentioned drow city/ civilisation. The Underdark Map locates this city somewhere below Calimport. The drow of Telantiwar invades in -9.000 Bhaerynden stayed there until the 'creation' of the Great Rift in -7.600. This belt (from Guallidurth via Llurth Dreier to Bhaerynden) seems to me a good starting area for the drow expansion that follows ... (Sshamath in -4973, Menzoberranzan in -3917, Ched Nasad in c. -3843, etc. and drow cities in the northeast under Thay). So I would assume that Golothaer is located somewhere between Guallidurth and Sshamath according to the chronology of new founded drow cities and distances versus the time of their founding. Maybe Golothaer was located somewhere around Philock. So maybe Menzoberra trekked north along the coastline and founded Menzoberranzan in the great cavern north of the dark lake after discovering the faerzress.
Zanan
12-21-07, 04:34 PM Unless I am mistaken, Llurth Dreier is the city closest to the Great Rift. BTW, have a look at my DnD-Gate artciles on that very topic by following the "homepage link" ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endoryan 12-03-07, 09:11 AM	I'm lookin for information on the Drow city Golothaer from where Menzoberra came from. Does anybody know where the city is located? Is there any information about the history of this city especially during the crown wars?
Zireael 12-03-07, 09:23 AM	AFAIR, the city is now fallen and it lay somewhere in the North.
Shiftkitty 12-03-07, 03:33 PM	I thought Menzoberra and her people were migrating from somewhere in the south? Can't recall where I got that from, but damn it! Now that I think about it, it might be important to my "Return of the Miyeritar Kings" campaign.
MarkusTay63 12-04-07, 02:44 PM	I thought the same, for some reason, but I can't seem to find it in sources. The only thing that is clear that the Drow travelled for quite a long time and faced many hardships enroute (including wiping out a Dwarf settlement) before reaching the Cavern of Many Eyes (current Menzoberranzan). Both histories I checked never mentioned the south, but because they indicate that the journey was "long and perilous", one would have to assume that it was either south or east, since the other two directions do not really extend very far (they do, but that would be off the map, really). Now, considering that Anauroch's Underdark was un-traversible until recently, it's a good bet that Golothaer was far to the south. Also, all of the Drow originally migrated from the south at some point, and the Drow's main city (Guallidurth) and their original city (Telantiwar) were both located to the far south as well, and Golothaer appears to have been a very large early settlement, indicating it would probably have been near those two. Now, if anyone finds a difinitive source as to what direction it was in, I would find it very helpful for my Dark Elven Cities article for the Elven Netbook. ;)
Shiftkitty 12-04-07, 03:28 PM	I hope it's to the south. All of the research being conduicted my the major NPCs in my campaign has been based around that notion. If it turns out to be wrong, all of Menzoberranzan is going to hear some colorful and very un-archmagey language coming from Gromph's office...:eek:
HralorpAxpain 12-04-07, 03:59 PM	From the sources I've checked, it is not clear where Golothaer was. Eryndlyn was in the High Moor though. Surprisingly, there is no mention of Golothaer in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. There is a mention of Golothaer in 2e Accessory Demihuman Deities under the Drow pantheon though. The Menzoberranzan Box mentions Golothaer several times (pp. 22-25), but mentions nowhere where the drow city was located. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical mentions Golothaer (p. 123), but again, there is no clue as to where it was located. I do not believe there any sources that mention the city's whereabouts, I am afraid. I guess you can put it wherever you like.
HralorpAxpain 12-04-07, 05:06 PM	Further to my previous message: 3.5e Underdark supplement mentions (p. 162) "Menzoberra the Kinless, a powerful priestess of Lolth, founded the city that bears her name in -3917 DR. At the behest of the Spider Queen, she led seven drow families into the Northdark from the southerly drow holdings of Great Bhaerynden." No mention of Golothaer, but rather, we get a mention of Great Bhaerynden (located below the Shaar), which was dwarven, until the drow invaded. The drow cities within Great Bhaerynden were/are: Guallidurth, Llurth Dreir and Tlindhet. Does anyone know where the Black Axe Clan of Dwarves was located? The drow of Menzoberra wiped them out on their way to Menzoberranzan, so I should think they were not too far south of Menzoberranzan, as it seems they didn't take that long after this, to find the cavern of Many Eyes. It seems that maybe Golothaer may have been located nearby to Great Bhaerynden but no source specifically mentions its location. Addendum: for those who may not know, the seven drow families that travelled with Menzoberra, were: S'sril, Thaeyalla, Baenre, Masq'il'yr, Nasadra, Tucheth and Uusralla.
Zanan 12-05-07, 04:09 AM	The Menzoberranzan box is (that Volo guide remark aside) the one and only source that gives any detail on Golothaer. From the info in the box, one gets the impression that the city lies somewhere in the north-western region of mainland Faerūn, most likely to the east of Menzo and north of the High Forest. Maybe the designers can help. And, BTW, the Crown Wars - at least up to the Descent (-10,000 D.R.) - had nothing to do with Golothaer (who was surely found post Descent). Have a look into the Elven Timeline of Faerūn (Cormanthyr, free download at the main site) for all the details on the Crown Wars. Obviously, the drow (not the pre-Descent dark elves) played bit part roles in the Crown Wars after that, but did not take part in them as such.
HralorpAxpain 12-05-07, 03:07 PM	I've just re-read the relavent passages in the Menzoberranzan Box and the only hint that Golothaer was not located in the south, is in reference to the former drow city Cloibbra, which was located in the south. It also seems that Golothaer maybe was not that far away, because refugee drow arrived from Golothaer to Menzoberranzan and it was stated earlier in the text, that the original journey by Menzoberra and the seven houses she travelled with, found it difficult to navigate through the Underdark. I do find it odd that Golothaer was not mentioned in 3.xE, was it perhaps retconned? Looking at the Black Axe Clan a bit closer... it seems this cavern/city is now occupied by Grimlock. The Cavern of Cloven Heads is located within the environs of Ched Nasad and not far from the former Dwarven city of Ammarindar. Now looking at the Underdark Map of Faerun, found in 3.5e Supplement Underdark, it shows that Ammarindar is located south east of Menzoberranzan, suggesting that maybe Golothaer was either further south or further east (perhaps in The Buried Realms or closer to Maerimydra perhaps). So you could be correct in your assumption that Golothaer was located in the east (perhaps under the High Forest).
MarkusTay63 12-06-07, 03:08 PM	The sad part is, I would love to connect the Drow of the NE with the Dark Elves of Miyeritar, who seemed to have just 'vanished'. The problem with that is that the NE Drow seem to be the MOST Lolth-o-centric of the bunch, which points straight to the Illythiir, not the Miyeritar. AFAIK, the Miyeritar Dark Elves were neutral to good, and did not worship Lolth at any point. Since the novel Blackstaff, we now know where quite a few of the Miyeritar Elves have gotten too, so there probably aren't any 'Drow' cities related to that group at all, and all of the NE Drow cities have become more fanatical about their worship, mostly do to Menzoberranzan's competition with Gaullidurth for divine favor (but that's pure conjecture). Araumycos appears to be ancient, and clogs up most of the underdark below the High Forest, although there might have been a large clear area in the distant past. In fact, wouldn't it be a kick in the head if Golothaer was at the center of Araumycos, and is somehow responsible for it? :D Just checking my map of Drow settlements and there seems to be a vacancy in the Turmish vicinity - it would be a decent candidate. The history in Menzoberranzn indicates the journey was VERY long, so I wouldn't think it was within NE Faerūn, but somewhere just outside of it. Once again, pure conjecture. The one thing that bothers me is that it appears the folks who created Ched Nasad "continued on" after Menzoberranzan was settled, which actually makes the region of Ten Towns more logical to fit that text - had they come from the south, they would have had to double-back to settle Ched Nasad, and then one would have to ask "why didn't they just settle THERE in the first place? Unless, of course, Ched Nasad is the cavern where that Dwarf Clan lived - the Black Axe, which would then cause the south to be a the favored direction once again. I think I'll "ask Ed" over at CK. :)
Zanan 12-06-07, 05:00 PM	I doubt that Golothaer was ever "mapped". Do keep in mind that Underdark travel can take ages, so it could well be that Golothaer was within 50 to 100 miles of Menzo and/or Ched Nasad, but the journey was simply difficult and all.
HralorpAxpain 12-07-07, 06:48 AM	I suspect you're correct with the assumption that Golothaer has never been mapped. As I said, there is no mention of it in 3.0/3.5e, as far as I am aware, which makes me suspect the drow city of Golothaer has been removed from Faerunian lore. Is it mentioned in GHotR? Markus, it would be good to hear to see if Ed Greenwood knows anything further over at Candlekeep. I do check the forums over there occasionally, but if you do find anything out, could you be so kind and post the response here? I also understand your position on Ched Nasad... it does seem they may have gone through the caverns there on their way to Menzoberranzan... but maybe not.
Krash 12-08-07, 05:04 AM	Just checking my map of Drow settlements and there seems to be a vacancy in the Turmish vicinity - it would be a decent candidate. The history in Menzoberranzn indicates the journey was VERY long, so I wouldn't think it was within NE Faerūn, but somewhere just outside of it. Once again, pure conjecture. Undraeth -- George Krashos
Shiftkitty 12-08-07, 12:48 PM	MarkusTay-The sad part is, I would love to connect the Drow of the NE with the Dark Elves of Miyeritar, who seemed to have just 'vanished'. The problem with that is that the NE Drow seem to be the MOST Lolth-o-centric of the bunch, which points straight to the Illythiir, not the Miyeritar. This can be easily worked in. People in a desperate situation tend to cling to anything that gives them hope (qv. the Nazi party, Jonestown, etc.). So the Miyeritari, given Lloth as their apparent only hope, could hardly be blamed for following her alongside the Illythiir. Maybe not all of them did, just as not every German toddled along mindlessly after Uncle Adolph, but those that did became the ones that survived.
MarkusTay63 12-09-07, 03:33 AM	Well, with 11,000+ years of history, ANYTHING is possible, but I'd just rather not associate the Illythiir Drow with the Miyeritar Dark Elves - their story was sad enough without them coming to that end (bitter, back-stabbing, Lolth worshippers). I'd like to think they had a 'nobler' destiny, and hopefully when I read the next Schend novel I'll find out if I was right. Undraeth -- George KrashosAhhh... Okay. The map is only half-finished, so I should have suspected something would fill that empty spot. Haven't gotten to the 'U's yet. ;)
Zanan 12-09-07, 04:38 AM	Well, with 11,000+ years of history, ANYTHING is possible, but I'd just rather not associate the Illythiir Drow with the Miyeritar Dark Elves - their story was sad enough without them coming to that end (bitter, back-stabbing, Lolth worshippers). I'd like to think they had a 'nobler' destiny, and hopefully when I read the next Schend novel I'll find out if I was right. Ahhh... Okay. The map is only half-finished, so I should have suspected something would fill that empty spot. Haven't gotten to the 'U's yet. ;) Well, have a look into that part of history in TGHoF. They make it pretty clear who was at fault when it comes to the demise of Miyeritar. And one should keep in mind that there is no nation as a whole which is noble and clean and good and all. You'd find your fair share of baddies everywhere, be it Miyeritar, Myth Drannor, Evermeet and what have you. Obviously, not all of those are demonworshippers and bloodletters galore.
Zireael 12-10-07, 09:29 AM	I think Golothaer was somewhere in SE, according to it.
Endoryan 12-19-07, 12:41 PM	thx a lot for your answers... :-) Since it seems that there aren't any hints for the exact location of Golothaer I think I will locate it according to the territorial expansion of Ilythiiri / Drow after their "Descent" (-10.0000). Guallidurth (-9.600) seems to be the first mentioned drow city/ civilisation. The Underdark Map locates this city somewhere below Calimport. The drow of Telantiwar invades in -9.000 Bhaerynden stayed there until the 'creation' of the Great Rift in -7.600. This belt (from Guallidurth via Llurth Dreier to Bhaerynden) seems to me a good starting area for the drow expansion that follows ... (Sshamath in -4973, Menzoberranzan in -3917, Ched Nasad in c. -3843, etc. and drow cities in the northeast under Thay). So I would assume that Golothaer is located somewhere between Guallidurth and Sshamath according to the chronology of new founded drow cities and distances versus the time of their founding. Maybe Golothaer was located somewhere around Philock. So maybe Menzoberra trekked north along the coastline and founded Menzoberranzan in the great cavern north of the dark lake after discovering the faerzress.
Zanan 12-21-07, 04:34 PM	Unless I am mistaken, Llurth Dreier is the city closest to the Great Rift. BTW, have a look at my DnD-Gate artciles on that very topic by following the "homepage link" ;)