Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LarvandrelSildaris 02-08-07, 03:37 PM	Hi everyone, I've been searching the net for some information about the drow's sava game but couldn't find anything interesting. Did R.A. Salvatore or anyone gave clues about the exact rules? I know it's supposed to be like chess with little difference, like no "King" and the sava dices. By the way, I've read Dissolution and the game between Lolth and Elistraee and still cannot understand exactly what you must roll to kill a piece of your adversary. Is it two d6s with, for example, each "6" side reprensenting a spider and if you roll a "6" with either die it worked?
Old Sage 02-08-07, 07:23 PM	I don't recall sava ever being properly detailed in any sources for the drow. What little lore does exist on the game, resides primarily in Dissolution.
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 08:01 PM	I've read Dissolution and don't even remember a Sava game. :confused:
Old Sage 02-08-07, 09:07 PM	The details are located on pgs. 47 and 48 of the hardcover.
Dxzauvrinn 02-09-07, 03:24 AM	I was just thinking this would be a cool for Wizards of the Coast to come out with like Three Dragon Ante.
BadCatMan 02-09-07, 04:35 AM	It's a Drow game. There probably aren't any rules that anybody bothers following, and likely finishes with a hand-crossbow under the table.
Khaelieth 02-09-07, 07:44 AM	I guess 8 would be a good number to roll=) Perhaps we can attempt to create it?
LarvandrelSildaris 02-09-07, 09:53 AM	It's a Drow game. There probably aren't any rules that anybody bothers following, and likely finishes with a hand-crossbow under the table. Hand-crossbow with bolts tipped in drow poison, to be sure! :)
BrennonGoldeye 02-09-07, 10:05 AM	It also happens to be the subject of the downloadable chapter of Sacrifice of the Widow here on WoTC. From the few instances of the moves being descibed it seems to be a cross between Chess and Chinese Checkers. I'm sure somebody has a better blending. Sure would be a nice little accessory. :)
LarvandrelSildaris 02-09-07, 01:26 PM	I guess 8 would be a good number to roll=) Perhaps we can attempt to create it? Ok, I know nothing about the Chinese Checkers but I'll give a try in order to create a workable system : In the standard chess game, there is six pieces : King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Pawn, Knight We have five (known) in sava : Matron Mother, Warrior, Slave, Wizard, Priestess I think it would be more easy to consider sava a standard chess game (for pieces movement and goals) but with slight variations. OK so here my corresponding pieces : Matron Mother (Queen) Warrior (Rook) Wizard (Bishop) Priestess (Knight) Slave (Pawn) Ok, so now we don't have a King... I would suggest to replace it by a Patron. My first "change" of the rules would be the goal : instead of the king, the objective would be to check-mate the queen (Matron Mother). So now we have a drow thinking : the more powerful piece of the game is also the more vulnerable) We could also make an optional rule that allows a player to sacrifice his Patron in switching places with the Matron Mother (this option cannot be made no a turn where the opponent has declared a check or check-mate) Now the dice. We can throw them only once per game. Considering this is 6-sided dice and the "6" of each represent a spider. When you roll them, if a "6" is rolled, you can immediately (and out of turn) play a piece of your opponent in order to destroy one of his own ONLY. Note that you can only use the opponent Matron Mother if you rolled a "6" on both die. Anyone have an idea to add randomness and chaos to the game, like cards or a series of optional rules?
LarvandrelSildaris 02-09-07, 01:27 PM	I was just thinking this would be a cool for Wizards of the Coast to come out with like Three Dragon Ante. I completely agree with you. WOTC should come out with a sava board game :) Long lives to drow lovers!
Red_Wizard 02-09-07, 06:00 PM	I did this awhile back. Not sure if it is interesting to anyone, but here it is. The Game of Sava. 1) Pieces: Black Red 1 x Matron 1 x Matron 2 x Priestess 2 x Priestess 3 x Wizard 3 x Wizard 9 x Warrior/Mercenary 9 x Warrior/Mercenary 2) Abilities. Matron: Roll 8 on a d8: Yotchol appears besides 1 piece of your choice, piece is slain, corpse raised to fight for you. (Note: Matron can never be slain in this manner) Roll 5-7 on a d8: Roll an additional d6, this many of the opposing houses Warriors/ Mercenaries are converted to your struggle. (Maximum 9 fighters) Roll 1-4 on a d8: Morale is boosted plus 1 to attack rolls on following assault from each of your House. (This roll is allowed once per 3 turns) Spell Range is 7 Squares. SR: 4 ATK: 4 Priestess: Once per round instead of moving, a Priestess can choose to roll a d8. Note: This ability can be used to return those killed and raised by the matrons Yotchol, but an additional 8 on a d8 is required for it to be a success. Roll 2x8 on d8: Raise Matron, or Return Zombie to the living. Roll 8 on d8: Raise Priestess from dead Roll 7 on d8: Raise Wizard Roll 6 on d8: Raise Soldier. Note: A roll higher than required can always be used for the raising of a lower piece. SR: 3 ATK: 2 Wizard: Roll 4-6 on d6: Opponent is struck by orb of fire. Death on failed SR throw. OR Opponent must make SR save or be charmed for one round. (Charmed person is moved immediately after being charmed). Roll 1-3 on d6: Miss opponent Spell Range is 4 Squares. Note: Wizard spells are susceptible to SR. When Hit by Wizards spell, an SR check is required against the Dice roll made to Hit. Example: Wizard rolls 6 on Attack, SR check made with d6+SR. 6+ required on roll to beat spell. Note: Successful SR save, means that the target is still stunned for one round, instead of being killed. Multiple attacks with successful saves does not stack the rounds stunned. Instead, targets SR is reduced by one, for each additional save made. SR: 2 ATK: 1 War/ Merc: Hand Crossbow: Instead of moving when within 2 squares of an opponent, a warrior can chose to make an attack with his hand crossbow. A roll of 6 is a hit, and the target is rendered asleep for one round. Should another team member move within one square of a sleeping target, it is considered killed with not opposed roll. SR: 1 ATK: 0 Battle: Battle is initiated when 2 figures come within one square of one another. When this occurs, each player rolls a d6, and adds their Attack modifier (ATK) to the roll. The higher roll wins. The victor then immediately must push into the losers space. Should this place you within reach of another opponent, a new fight begins. Should you threaten Multiple targets, an attack of one on one is still initiated, however the person with the superior numbers combines attack bonuses of all within attacking range (This des not include spells, or the Warriors hand Crossbow). This modified ATK modifier is then applied to the attack roll made against you. Note: Warriors who have no ATK bonus, gain one when fighting together, per two soldiers. ATK Bonuses do not stack in this manner. So four warriors would still only grant a +2 Bonus, not +4. IE: 1 War = 0 ATK 2 War = +1 ATK 3 War = +1 ATK 4 War = +2 ATK etc. Wizards Have one distinct advantage in combat, in that should an enemy soldier move within two squares of them, they may immediately make an attack via spell. A roll of 5-6 requires the opponent to make an SR save. Failure leaves them stunned for the remained of the round, and allows the Wizard a free move in any direction of 2 spaces. This defence takes place even though it is not the wizards turn. Should the roll fail, the fighter may continue its movement, and a fight is initiated normally. In the event of a tied roll, roll again until victor is decided. Movement: Roll a d6 to determine first play in game: Higher roll wins. In a turn, all pieces of each house are moved. Once all pieces are moved, play moves to the opposing teams. (This can be changed to a back and forth method) Matron: 1 Space Priestess: 2 Spaces Wizard: 3 Spaces Warrior: 4 Spaces House: The Drows house area is slightly raised. A new level above the battlefield is added for each change in playing piece. IE: The soldier is slightly above the Battle area. The wizard, again raised slightly, Priestess a little more, and Matron the highest. Note: This is not necessary for the game. It merely makes defining the start house area easier. Here (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/Red_Wizard01/JavaBoard.jpg) Is a rough board I did to simulate the playing board. Essentially it is a chess board played as a diamond rather than a square, with a few squares removed, to make 8 points on the board.
BrennonGoldeye 02-10-07, 09:43 PM	All ye folk truly rock. :bow:
Panurg 02-11-07, 09:03 AM	Interesting Post ... :clap: But if we have a chess-like game, why not use the figure patron? In chess you have a queen and a king. And as far as I remember each drow matron mother had an institutional husband, that was responsibel for her pleasure, and of course the birth of her daughters. It's easy for a mtron mother to get rid of him, though ... Perhaps this could be reflected in the rules ... :plotting:
BadCatMan 02-11-07, 09:33 AM	Change the King to Matron and the Queen to Patron. The Patron is the highly valuable tank piece not unlike a Weapon Master who annihilates the competition by brute force. If the Patron gets killed, a pawn who makes it to the end of the board can be promoted to Patron status (a lowly warrior who makes it big and becomes the Matron's toyboy). The Matron is then the highly important piece who's protection is paramount. Of course, there's probably a rule for a player to buy-off an opponent's pieces and use to them to change sides and betray other pieces.
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 11:48 AM	The only thing is there is no mention of the patron piece. Technically the matron piece is only introduced in the sava game between Eilistraee and lolth, but they are also playing a game thousands of pieces vast, so space is not an issue. This worked out nicely with me omitting the slave piece, and having the base be the warrior. Think of this as a lesser house to house battle, where the slaves have been spent, and your down to the line with forces. :)
Khaelieth 02-11-07, 07:28 PM	If WotC issued a sava game, I'd be thrilled. But it might need some simplifying? (sp?!) I'd rather use 2D6 for character purposes, D8's were unheard of in the dark ages I think.
LarvandrelSildaris 02-12-07, 02:31 PM	Red Wizard I love your example of sava game. Did you play-tested it? Think we can go a long way by adding other drow randomness in all that.
LarvandrelSildaris 02-12-07, 02:32 PM	Change the King to Matron and the Queen to Patron. The Patron is the highly valuable tank piece not unlike a Weapon Master who annihilates the competition by brute force. If the Patron gets killed, a pawn who makes it to the end of the board can be promoted to Patron status (a lowly warrior who makes it big and becomes the Matron's toyboy). The Matron is then the highly important piece who's protection is paramount. Of course, there's probably a rule for a player to buy-off an opponent's pieces and use to them to change sides and betray other pieces. Love your idea of the Patron, but still I cannot make myself to the fact that the Matron Mother would have the restrictions of the King piece...
Red_Wizard 02-12-07, 02:35 PM	Red Wizard I love your example of sava game. Did you play-tested it? Think we can go a long way by adding other drow randomness in all that. No, it was never play tested, couldn't find anyone who would :P. But feel free to test it, and tell me what's wrong with it :). From pondering on it though, begginners could make the game go very quickly, but as you play it more I can see it being more drawn out like a chess match. One suggestion to lengthen games would be to simply increase the boards size. My only issue with this is it becomes less like the chess-esq game described, and more like DnD minis...
LarvandrelSildaris 02-12-07, 02:54 PM	The only thing is there is no mention of the patron piece. Technically the matron piece is only introduced in the sava game between Eilistraee and lolth, but they are also playing a game thousands of pieces vast, so space is not an issue. This worked out nicely with me omitting the slave piece, and having the base be the warrior. Think of this as a lesser house to house battle, where the slaves have been spent, and your down to the line with forces. :) You're right on that one. But if I remember well there is no mention of players throwing dice during the game, except for those with the spider that are thrown once per game.
Red_Wizard 02-12-07, 03:24 PM	Indeed, but like I said, this was awhile ago. Time frame, pre Sacrifice of the Widow. That being said, in sacrifice of the widow, Eilistraee plays her wizard piece, but before she does she tests it's power. This might mean that the pieces have their own represented abilities not mentioned (which works nicely for my set up), or it could be symbolic, with the Sava board representing the Drow race, and the pieces are the warriors of both sides. With so little to go on though, I have decided that any updates to my set up would only be speculation, and so when I brought it back up from the dusty shelf it was on, I left it as is :)
Lelldorianx 02-12-07, 06:50 PM	Ok, I know nothing about the Chinese Checkers but I'll give a try in order to create a workable system : In the standard chess game, there is six pieces : King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Pawn, Knight We have five (known) in sava : Matron Mother, Warrior, Slave, Wizard, Priestess I think it would be more easy to consider sava a standard chess game (for pieces movement and goals) but with slight variations. OK so here my corresponding pieces : Matron Mother (Queen) Warrior (Rook) Wizard (Bishop) Priestess (Knight) Slave (Pawn) Ok, so now we don't have a King... I would suggest to replace it by a Patron. My first "change" of the rules would be the goal : instead of the king, the objective would be to check-mate the queen (Matron Mother). So now we have a drow thinking : the more powerful piece of the game is also the more vulnerable) We could also make an optional rule that allows a player to sacrifice his Patron in switching places with the Matron Mother (this option cannot be made no a turn where the opponent has declared a check or check-mate) Now the dice. We can throw them only once per game. Considering this is 6-sided dice and the "6" of each represent a spider. When you roll them, if a "6" is rolled, you can immediately (and out of turn) play a piece of your opponent in order to destroy one of his own ONLY. Note that you can only use the opponent Matron Mother if you rolled a "6" on both die. Anyone have an idea to add randomness and chaos to the game, like cards or a series of optional rules? I would say Matron Mother serves more of a King type. She is the all important of a Drow house; the king was the all important of a kingdom. So, my guess would be, based on Drow tactics: Slave (Pawn) Warrior (Knight) Matron Mother (King) Priestess (Bishop) High Priestess (Queen) Wizard (Rook) Another possible Queen style piece that might be fun to name would be, perhaps, Elderboy. Perhaps even Assassin or some sort of reward piece. I have to go back and reread that part, I do not recall it. Subscribing to this topic! Red Wizard - overlooked your amazing post! Well done. I say that there should be one piece in the middle of the Warriors that is an Elderboy or Secondboy, perhaps he will just have a bit better of an attack/move scheme. ~Steve
xerric 02-14-07, 02:40 PM	Love all the Sava talk, I posted my own version of a board at my page http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/48785435/ let me know of any improvements or changes that would work. I like the Weapons master because powerful houses have them and they can be "Patrons" as well. For the assasination roll of the dice I suggest a once per game idea unless you suceed, very much like a Drow society coup. Before rolling you would choose a piece or your own and an opponents, this could be a once per game ability depending on how you roll. Roll 2d6's and on my board for example each piece is numbered and you would suceed in assasinating the opponents piece if you rolled the same number on one of the d6's say a Weapon Master would require a 2, now if you say chose a Wizard which would be 4 you can keep him alive after the assasination attempt if your roll a 4. Just a thought : )
Yanagita Kunio 02-14-07, 06:51 PM	While I'm not familiar with the novel-based description, I love abstract strategy games, and in particular the manner in which they represent their culture of origin's understanding of war. Given the drow taste for intrigue, I could see Sava being a game with a slow-developing beginning, but by entry into midgame there's the possibility for fast, abrupt threats/checkmates. [If anyone's more familiar with the drow and disagrees, please chime in--I'm not really much of a novel fan, so I'm really going on loose impressions] One possibility would be to look at Shogi--the family of Japanese chess variants--for inspiration. Many Shogi variants incorporate the abiltiy to use captured pieces by taking a move to place them on the board (with a few limits on where what types of piece can be put)...including to put the king in check. This factor, combined with the more limited movement of most pieces (you get one rook and one bishop), makes for a much more claustrophobic, paranoid game: you have to marshal your own resources carefully, lest your enemy seize them, and you have to stay vigilant to simply being "exposed" even if there's no visible threat.
Zireael 02-15-07, 01:39 AM	I think that this version of Sava is too compicated. I'd remove all SRs and ATKs and Battle, and play like normal chess (normal beating).
Khaelieth 02-15-07, 12:03 PM	but then it'd be chess...
Red_Wizard 02-15-07, 05:36 PM	If WotC issued a sava game, I'd be thrilled. But it might need some simplifying? (sp?!) I'd rather use 2D6 for character purposes, D8's were unheard of in the dark ages I think. Sacrafice of the Widow Uses d8 in the Sava game played by Lolth, and Eilistraee. Also, current Faerun isn't even comparible to the dark ages, as magic exists, and plays heavily into the lifestyles of many of the major cities, and cultures of the world.
Zireael 02-16-07, 01:36 AM	No, because the board, pieces, and movement would be another. And there would be the spider dices, as in books.
Khaelieth 02-16-07, 08:12 AM	Sacrafice of the Widow Uses d8 in the Sava game played by Lolth, and Eilistraee. Also, current Faerun isn't even comparible to the dark ages, as magic exists, and plays heavily into the lifestyles of many of the major cities, and cultures of the world. Sure? Oh, alright. But Chinese checkers is dead easy to play.
MessiahOmega 02-17-07, 11:03 PM	one of the things that i had noticed in the SotW book is that lolth an eliestree dont have all of the pieces on the board at once. they seem to have reserves. also the idea of pieces betraying the player and changing sides is awsome.
mithrilwombat 03-10-07, 12:23 AM	I think I may be wrong, but wasn't sava played on a weblike board? (Pg. 2 of Sacrifice of the Widow. That sort of torpedoes using a chessboard, no matter how you turn it. If I were designing it, I'd go with an eight-sided web, and place the pieces on the strand intersections instead of in squares or whatever. And while Lolth and Eilistraee's pieces had unique properties, being incredibly numerous and actually representing individual entities, I'd rather see I standard movement for each type of piece. And definately make it like chess in that any piece can take out any other, since even anyone can be maneuvered to take down a matron if it's done right. Think of that explody assassin that almost took down Triel. But yeah, back to my original point, the board needs to be a web.
Old Sage 03-10-07, 02:09 AM	Dissolution notes that Sava is played on web-shaped boards.
hento 03-13-07, 08:04 AM	Regardless of what the book says i think it should be a poison drinking game with glass poison bottles in different colours hanging from the web, with poisons being from mild to deadly. It's quick and effective in a drow-like way. :pint:
Tarus 03-13-07, 10:21 AM	Someone should compile the hard facts (and maybe a few lines out of the text as a source for people to interpret if it doesn't break rules) and seperate them from the opinions and what people would like to see. This way it will become a much easier task of determining what rules/constraints are in place and what rules/constraints the person who makes this game has to develop. Did I mention I am a programmer?
mithrilwombat 03-26-07, 12:19 AM	Okay, here's what I know for certain so far on sava -played on a web-shaped board -chess-like -in Sacrifice of the Widow, it uses two eight sided dice, either black with white spots and a spider instead of one, or white with black spots, and a moon for one. The dice may only be used once per player per game. If you roll both dice and get two spiders/moons, you may move one of your opponent's pieces to attack them. -Pieces are Matron Mother, Priestess, Wizard, Warrior, Slave, in order from the top down. I'll post more specifics when I'm not bogging on homework, but that's the most basic important points
Ramenth 04-04-07, 03:50 PM	Sava, I'd assume, is a good deal more complex than chess. For one thing, you're playing on an octogonal board from what I recall. For another, I know at least in the Drow Versus Elistraee game there are a whole lot more than one or two of each major piece.
Eragon_seer 04-04-07, 04:48 PM	What in the Nine hells is this Sacrifice of the Widow thing every one is talking about! I must know because if it contains any Information on Drow I must see it! I am reading dissolution and would enjoy a Sava game
Old Sage 04-04-07, 07:42 PM	Sacrifice of the Widow (http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/novels/sotw.htm) is the first book in "The Lady Penitent Trilogy" by Lisa Smedman.
mithrilwombat 04-04-07, 10:15 PM	Finish reading the War of the Spider Queen first. It always makes more sense if you read a series in order.
mithrilwombat 04-04-07, 10:19 PM	Oh and this irked me a bit. Regardless of what the book says i think it should be a poison drinking game with glass poison bottles in different colours hanging from the web, with poisons being from mild to deadly. It's quick and effective in a drow-like way. :pint: The whole thing about sava is, like chess, it's a game of strategy. Not a game of Russian roulette. Which is dumb.
Loestalx 04-04-07, 10:55 PM	Oh and this irked me a bit. The whole thing about sava is, like chess, it's a game of strategy. Not a game of Russian roulette. Which is dumb. He was joking maybe?
Ramenth 04-05-07, 05:28 PM	Don't jokes require humor? :o Anyway, as far as Sava goes... Well, I have a feeling we'll see more of it as SoTW goes on.
JesusCraig 01-16-08, 10:50 PM	You can't make the queen the peice required to checkmate. Try it sometime, it takes an overwhelming advantage in order to kill a queen in chess, especially in the late game. It happens because the queen can move in so many places (at least 21, 7 from the corner to either of the other corners for a total of 21, as the queen approaches the middle that increases, as the number of directions increases to a maximum of 27) whereas the king is limited to at most 8, so in order to checkmate the king you can just cut off progressive moves as long as you have a peices at least as strong as the rook. If you don't believe me put the queen on the board, then add peices until you can checkmate it. You need a comparatively huge force, enough to actually trap positions and act as placeholders as well as units to threaten and units to block the queen from taking the threats. You need more than half your peices to accomplish an end game checkmate on a queen.
Shiftkitty 01-17-08, 03:39 PM	I'd love to see an actual sava board. I love chess, and if anyone actually built one and had rules for it, I'd camp out to buy one. Meanwhile, my husband and I play a chess variation inspired by Benedict Arnold called "Traitor". It play like chess, but each player rolls 1d8 and keeps the roll concealed. Tokens at each side of the chessboard are moved up one rank each turn until your token hits the rank indicated by your die, at which point you have the option to move any one of your opponent's pieces except the king. Maybe that'll keep everyone stabbing each other in the back until a real sava board hits the shelves, eh? We have fun with it.
Storm_Silverhand 01-17-08, 04:51 PM	Heya, Finish reading the War of the Spider Queen first. It always makes more sense if you read a series in order. I had no problem understanding Sacrifice of the Widow, and I haven't and have no intention of reading the War of the Spider Queen series. (Mostly because it's impossible to find the entire series in one bookstore... *grumbes*)