Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ExtinctionBeta 10-22-07, 02:35 PM	I am not bashing the race for I learned my lesson. I was wondering the logic that many of you put forth in defending the Drow. If they are better than surface Dwellers, than does that mean over 100 dieties are none too smart for choosing surface dwellers as thier followers? And Lolth being the smartest diety of them all? So why don't the Gods kill Lolth and start collecting Drow? I do not want to hear it is from the Drows own opinion, for Salvantore has stated that the best of the surface Dwellers are no match for even the worst of the Underdark warriors. Is this just Salvantores own opionion and other authors would say differntly, or according to your own game statistics (which once again I do not play) Drow are indeed better. Please do not bash me on this topic, I am truely curious and have been reading the war of the spider queen to be more well rounded with my post so I have logical statments to reply with.
Red_Wizard 10-22-07, 03:57 PM	In my opinion the Drow are no better or worse than any other race. They are interesting, and serve their purpose in novels, albeit less impressively than they once did, but they do so none the less. Statistically they aren't much more powerful than the base races, but they are enough so to make most combatants dread a one on one encounter with them at low levels. Factually low levels are where many of Faeruns mortals rank in the grand scheme of things, despite what popular belief would have you believe, thus the fear many show for them is well justified.. Lastly, I don't recall R.A.S. at any point stating the Drow were better. He has only ever done so to the best of my knowledge via character opinions in novels. So please, if you have seen something elsewhere to the contrary, link it for us in your follow up reply. -RW
Alediran 10-22-07, 04:09 PM	After all, how many drow, no matter their Spell Resistance, could even be little more than a mosquito to powerfull spellcasters like the Simbul?
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 04:15 PM	-The main reason why Drow have an inflated sense of worth to gamers is mostly because of Drizzt, who, ironically enough, is quite the atypical Drow. Go figure.
ExtinctionBeta 10-22-07, 04:55 PM	Thanks guys, I appreciate it.I seriously mean that too
Another Gnome 10-22-07, 05:07 PM	Well, I'm strictly of the opinion that 95% of drow population is commoners just like every other race, and while even the drow commoners know how to use a sword, take away the sword and pit a drow commoner against a human commoner, and the drow will not walk away from that fight. And yeah, Lolth is given way too much credit. Or rather, every single other deity seems to be portrayed as a complete idiot. Did I mention I'm a big drow fan? :)
ExtinctionBeta 10-22-07, 05:11 PM	Well, I'm strictly of the opinion that 95% of drow population is commoners just like every other race, and while even the drow commoners know how to use a sword, take away the sword and pit a drow commoner against a human commoner, and the drow will not walk away from that fight. And yeah, Lolth is given way too much credit. Or rather, every single other deity seems to be portrayed as a complete idiot. Did I mention I'm a big drow fan? :) Either you are none Biast or that was sarcastic lol. I just don't understand how Drow come to the conclusion of ilbilth meaning a lesser race. Since they never commune with them. And when they were beaten by mithral hall. I want to see a chosen of Lolth face a chosen of another diety. Before the war of the Spider Queen and 4E, Lolth was under a over diety. Not to mention dealing with people like Artemis...then again...Salvantore had the Drow Take down the Citadel of Assiasins in a matter for 3 pages...so either Drow really are that good or hes just overdoing his novels. Or maybe I complain too much.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 05:25 PM	I just don't understand how Drow come to the conclusion of ilbilth meaning a lesser race. -The same way any other race comes to the conclusion. There doesn't necessarily have to be any fact to it, but they believe themselves better than other races. Same reason White Supremacists find themselves better than other races. Same reason Black Power "Nationalists" find themselves better than other races. Same reason the Japanese found themselves better that the rest of South Asia. Since they never commune with them. -Drow society has plenty of dealings with members of non-Drow races via things like trade and such.
Another Gnome 10-22-07, 07:47 PM	No really, drow can make for interesting and complex characters, it's just that their cool factor is so easy to take overboard especially in novel form. I mean, okay, I can accept that a drow raiding party sent to the surface has to be pretty badass simply to survive the journey and sure they can take out a few simple farmers, but why is it that when that raiding party meets with some moon elf ranger patrol -- who are in their native environment and have every bit as acute or even better senses, and the same years of combat training as the drow -- the ensuing fight almost invariably results in the surface elves getting slaughtered while the drow barely suffer losses? My theory is that it's all about drow propaganda; it would be rather embarrassing for a matron mother of the house to actually admit how 9 out of 10 raiding parties they send out never come back because they get their butts kicked by lesser beings. So instead she goes and spins a nice little story, convincing herself that those 9 out of 10 raiders were heretics and the Spider Queen forsake and cursed them the moment they stepped out of the city. Yeah, that must be it.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 08:35 PM	My theory is that it's all about drow propaganda; it would be rather embarrassing for a matron mother of the house to actually admit how 9 out of 10 raiding parties they send out never come back because they get their butts kicked by lesser beings. So instead she goes and spins a nice little story, convincing herself that those 9 out of 10 raiders were heretics and the Spider Queen forsake and cursed them the moment they stepped out of the city. Yeah, that must be it. -It's a solid theory.
AffableDoomwalker 10-22-07, 08:54 PM	A fellow gamer put forth a very obvious and, IMO, very valid viewpoint on Drow: "Think about it, what was a Drow rogue back in 1997? It was a walking, talking, difficult challenge with great rewards. They were never supposed to be PCs. Just a numerous, intelligent enemy designed to scare the pants off of your PCs." Makes sense to me. Mithril chain mail-toting, +2 weapon wielding, darkness-casting, poison-using, sneak-attacking sons of *****es, and a wizard, with a cleric to boot? Get a group of 'em and you have the makings of a fine climax for your underdark adventure; if you survive, have fun carrying all the nifty magical stuff (and your buddies' corpses) back to the surface! Insofar as racial supremacy, heck, they think they're better than everyone else (likely a carry-over from when they were, y'know, back in 1997?), they're the would-be masters of their own little dark domain, and damn proud of it. Edit: Enter the fluffykins: The fluff started rolling out, people wanted to know more about these dastardly underground elf-folk, plotting and striking from the dark, first a few lines in a splatbook, then a few lines in a novel, then an entire novel; it exploded. Hooray! As for Salvatore over-doing his novels? Spot-on. If you were to translate a Salvatore book from a novel to an actual PnP module, you'd likely puke at the amount of DM-fiat used to make the things that happen actually happen. People tend to roll twenties, a lot. Or not, depending on whether or not he wants to kill them yet. He has a niche with drow, they made him rich, so he'll keep writing about them, and they'll keep being every fansheep's favorite black-skinned white-haired Maria Susanas.
Eli_the_Tanner 10-22-07, 09:19 PM	Most races use racial supremacy as a means to justify their lot in life, and help to build a sense of uniqueness and worth in a highly divesified world. The drow have been exiled from the rest of the elven pantheon and twisted from their original forms. Residing in lightless caverns underground, yet always yeraning for the surface - they attempt to convince themselves that they are in that situation for reasons beyond punishment. Few races have true reason to consider themselves above others (except Dragons, of course) and soon shape their differences, weaknesses and abilities into propaganda for their superiority. Drow claim the harsh theological/social/geographical situations they are in make them the most powerful race in Faerun. Humans claim their lack of specialisation as their point of pride. Dwarves say their persistance and refusal to change is what makes them great. Elves state that not being tied to anything makes them free from 'material' concerns, and therefore superior in their approach to the world. Halflings, Gnomes, Beholders, Demons, Angels, cheesemakers, wizards, animated statues.....they all have there personal philosophies that justify what makes their race superior to others. Taken to extremes this means that race begins to act upon these beliefs negatively. This amazing diversity of ideas and attitudes among the races is one reason many fans are drawn to the Forgotten Realms(and other fantasy settings). These races all represents facets of our society and human nature, distilled into a nice halfling or drow shaped creature, that we can explore through the world of D&D The reason many people 'defend' or 'big up' the drow is because they find the society and psychology a fascinating one. The statistical benefits of being a drow are of little consequence next to the history, society, politics, culture etc. that comes with being a drow. Before Salvatore began writing about the Drow, they were nothing more than a small paragraph in the Fiend Folio, merely outlining them as 'evil elves'. This is why people also stick up for Bob as he literally shaped the entirety of the drow we know today in the Forgotten Realms.
Zanan 10-23-07, 06:57 AM	People should keep a few things in mind here: Editions The cool factor of the drow almost solely came from those Early D&D and AD&D drow, who were created as monsters to represent cunning and intelligent humanoid creatures, dwelling virtually in magic and are as developed and up-to-scratch with anything humanoid on the surface (humans, elves, you name it). Not just there to be bashed aside like your odd bugbear, illithid, beholder or the like. And they do it in groups as well, groups who have been trained in warfare all their lifes as well as having experienced warfare throughout their lifes. On top of that, they could use magical and semi-magical stuff not available on the surface and lavish in evil stuff like their is no tomorrow. You would be hard pressed to find likewise and in such frequency all over Faerūn on the surface. The above was all not considering the Drizzt stuff. Yes, he brought the drow "to the players" and his selling figures meant that the focus on that race was indeed vastly exaggerated if compared to other races or creatures. That is not the fault of the drow though. And this is why - when I speak of drow - I usually disregard anything surface-ish or player-character-ish, unless it is required for rules stuff. 3E has taken a lot of this "mystical" flair away from the drow. The introduction of NPC classes and the level-cuts did away with much of the original drow ... unless the DM takes his or her role seriously and squeezes enough out of the available rules to make the drow "cool" again. As Another Gnome said, a good proportion of the populace of a drow city might be "commoners" these days (including adepts, commoners, experts and the like), but still the ECL hands a superior equipment to a drow War 1 than a CR 2 human War 2. Not to mention that if you hurl a fireball into a group of drow warriors (1) and try the same against human warriors (2), you can guess for yourself how many on each side will be left standing. So these edititional changes to the drow, how they were intended to work in the setting should never be left out on such debates. That said, the drow virtually rule the Underdark and if you rule such a place, you deserve some credit. Any half-decent DM will know that and thus there should be no debate about the egocentric way the drow tend to think about themselves - and others. They know their limits though, rest assured. Lolth Is she better than other deities? Why should she? Because she gets more attention in recent novels? Essentially, all deities of Faerūn could do likewise (well, not all, but you get my point). It is not their fault that they don't do it - or a reflection of Lolth's power that she does - but the focus of the Wizards' attention. Drow and Lolth sell, so there is no need to focus on Bane or Cyric or whomever right now. They will most likely shift the focus to Mystra, Shar et all once Spellplague happens by. And make sure you understand that what happens to Lolth and her kin has - in essence - not that great an effect on the FR or the setting as such. It is all virtually an in-race developement that happens on the periphery of the Realm's history. In-game and in-setting, the Twilight War about Shar et al has far greater importance for the majority of the gamers and DMs.
Suin Bahhar 10-23-07, 08:41 AM	Drow having strong infravision (or the later 3ed darkvision to 120 ft) is one of the most frightnening abilities of drow when they set up ambushes. Imagine encountering a drow patrol in the underdark. The first thing in the engagement the drow will cloak the area in darkness spells or choose an area with lots of cover, then using ranged attacks and surprise strikes at a distance the drow themselves cannot be pinpointed. This will usually have a devastating affect on their adversaries. Old edition drow carried magic equipment of extreme power for their "power"levels, like mithral drow chain and plate mail, adamantine enchanted longswords. Parties could enjoy the loot as long as they remained underground (which was as short as possible if the party had any wits left), as all drow equipment disintegrated upon contact with sunlight. Further more drow are longlived elves and through daily practise drow can achieve high levels of expertise in the shadowy warfare, magic and divine connection to Lolth. A warrior of the drow sometimes has had almost thrice the training a human warrior has had. This difference can only be more defined when drow culture stimulates exeptional skill in all areas of expertise a drow chooses. The cutthrought back stabbing ensure vigilence, and the clanhouse competion ensures skill levels to be of use against their fellow drow. When pointed outward the gloves come off and all hell breaks loose.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-23-07, 10:28 AM	Insofar as racial supremacy, heck, they think they're better than everyone else (likely a carry-over from when they were, y'know, back in 1997?), they're the would-be masters of their own little dark domain, and damn proud of it. Edit: Enter the fluffykins: The fluff started rolling out, people wanted to know more about these dastardly underground elf-folk, plotting and striking from the dark, first a few lines in a splatbook, then a few lines in a novel, then an entire novel; it exploded. Hooray! But remember that the Drizzt novels first appeared way back in 1988--almost ten years before 1997 (who came up with that magic date?).
Telagaunt 10-23-07, 12:28 PM	No really, drow can make for interesting and complex characters, it's just that their cool factor is so easy to take overboard especially in novel form. I mean, okay, I can accept that a drow raiding party sent to the surface has to be pretty badass simply to survive the journey and sure they can take out a few simple farmers, but why is it that when that raiding party meets with some moon elf ranger patrol -- who are in their native environment and have every bit as acute or even better senses, and the same years of combat training as the drow -- the ensuing fight almost invariably results in the surface elves getting slaughtered while the drow barely suffer losses? My theory is that it's all about drow propaganda; it would be rather embarrassing for a matron mother of the house to actually admit how 9 out of 10 raiding parties they send out never come back because they get their butts kicked by lesser beings. So instead she goes and spins a nice little story, convincing herself that those 9 out of 10 raiders were heretics and the Spider Queen forsake and cursed them the moment they stepped out of the city. Yeah, that must be it. Well, idk if they live as long or have the same kind of training. Drow society is a high matriarchal military one. Some moon elf ranger patrol probably do not go under the same and as hard of training that drow societies do. Plus drow have SR, moon elves do not. Which can be a big factor. And a drow fighter 1 is technically what, level 3?
AffableDoomwalker 10-23-07, 03:08 PM	But remember that the Drizzt novels first appeared way back in 1988--almost ten years before 1997 (who came up with that magic date?). The Electric Jesus. And my ability to typo numbers'n'such. Seriously though, at that point in time ('87-'90) the Icewind Dale trilogy wasn't "the Drizzty-Drow funtime show" just yet. Move on past that point in time, and... again... enter the fluff, and we see the birth of Captain Invincible - lord of the underdark, king of dual-wielding, guy that even the bhaalspawn can't kill (permanently, despite a disintegrate spell being used). Hiyooooooo! A simple edit and my statement still stands as valid :D
Another Gnome 10-23-07, 08:09 PM	Well, idk if they live as long or have the same kind of training. Drow society is a high matriarchal military one. Some moon elf ranger patrol probably do not go under the same and as hard of training that drow societies do. Surface elves are no less militaristic than drow, and while their training may not actively kill the weak, it simply means moon elves actually have a reserve to fall back on should their best of the best fail to stop the attacker. Plus drow have SR, moon elves do not. Which can be a big factor. And a drow fighter 1 is technically what, level 3? SR doesn't do squat against an arrow through the heart, and low-light vision is infinitely better than darkvision on the surface (assuming the drow don't get a bright idea to raid in daylight). Also, from a mechanical point of view the higher effective level is a further disadvantage when in the time it takes for a drow to get to level 1 the moon elf is already level 3. Even a lvl 3 drow has nothing to boast over a lvl 3 moon elf in physical combat; the difference only shows when magic is involved. Again technically, those drow would be entitled to lvl 5 gear to skew the odds in their favor, but someone's got to pay the bills for all that stuff, and there's only so many soldiers even the wealthiest of noble houses can afford to outfit with 4,000 to 9,000 gold worth of gear... and we're only talking about 5th-level troops here.
Blibbering_Humdinger 10-23-07, 08:38 PM	I just don't understand how Drow come to the conclusion of ilbilth meaning a lesser race. Because iblith means excrement. When a drow calls you iblith, he's calling you a worthless piece of :censored: .
Telagaunt 10-24-07, 12:37 AM	Surface elves are no less militaristic than drow, and while their training may not actively kill the weak, it simply means moon elves actually have a reserve to fall back on should their best of the best fail to stop the attacker. SR doesn't do squat against an arrow through the heart, and low-light vision is infinitely better than darkvision on the surface (assuming the drow don't get a bright idea to raid in daylight). Also, from a mechanical point of view the higher effective level is a further disadvantage when in the time it takes for a drow to get to level 1 the moon elf is already level 3. Even a lvl 3 drow has nothing to boast over a lvl 3 moon elf in physical combat; the difference only shows when magic is involved. Again technically, those drow would be entitled to lvl 5 gear to skew the odds in their favor, but someone's got to pay the bills for all that stuff, and there's only so many soldiers even the wealthiest of noble houses can afford to outfit with 4,000 to 9,000 gold worth of gear... and we're only talking about 5th-level troops here. I agree with the aspect drow will have better gear. But training I doubt. It's just my opinion that drow are more militarily trained and equipped than almost any surface group (on a generic basis). Also you figure, how high of a level can a moon elf squad really be. Right maybe, that moon elf is leveling faster, but IMO that drow is going through harder training, thus he levels at least at the same rate. Also you said Rangers. Where most Drow are Fighters. And will have higher attack and defense bonuses. I mentioned SR just as a point, that most mages in that moon elf party are probably not powerful enough to overcome SR. Although I'm sure any drow raiding party (well whoever picks the target) is picking weak groups to attack regardless lol.
Zanan 10-24-07, 06:41 AM	Well, pitch battles of drow vs. moon leves on here, throwing up various possibilities will eventually bring nothing. Just because there are indeed umpteen variables which have to be taken into account. First, a Drow Ftr 1 should be compared to a Elven Ftr 2, as we are comparing CRs, not ECLs and thus player characters. Or you could do, if you want. Second, true enough, an arrow is not stopped by SR, yet a magic missile might be. And we have to keep in mind that the FR are a heavy magic setting and it will be used very often. Third, if you do indeed compare people of the same CR, the drow gets the LA+2 advantage with regards to equipment, so essentially has the material of a normal Ftr 3 handy. Unfair? Maybe. But it is part of being a drow nonetheless. Fourth, tactics. Drow simply will not fight under averse conditions, nor will a moon elf, unless forced. So if drow attack something on the surface, it will be at night. Darkvision comes to the fore again and as drow are not exactly required to use hand-crossbows, they can virtually pick targets off at 100 feet without ever being seen. (Poison use comes in handy, but it has the drawback that the drow might poison themselves while equipping the bolts / arrows.) So we have a lot of ifs and buts here ... something always to keep in mind.
_Jarlaxle_ 10-24-07, 07:54 AM	Well, I'm strictly of the opinion that 95% of drow population is commoners just like every other race hmm I think thats far too much maybe around 50% in my Opinion. Remember that Drow are very militaristic and love to use slaves for the normal day to day work. And I think the militaristic and chaotic evil ways of the Drow are the reason why they are generally stronger in combat than other races. Their warriors are trained for combat longer than a humans livespan and after that they continue fighting all the time against other drow houses or all the threats in the underdark. And there are far more dangerous threats in the underdark than on the survace. So a moonelf for example maybe is trained very good too but after his training there are normaly not so much though enemies where he can perfect his abilities like a Drow. To make it short: The drow are so strong because thats their only chance to survive in the underdark.
ExtinctionBeta 10-24-07, 08:22 AM	So Drow would lose if they were to fight on an open feild amry vs army? Salvantore prides himself on thier house warfare. Not in open areas. And keep in mind that they can't handle the sun/light as well. I bet a line of Paladins would rockthe Drow with Lathander backing them. Thats who should have been attacking the Drow in the 6 book series of the extinction novels of the underard-Paladins. Would have been bad ass.
_Jarlaxle_ 10-24-07, 08:57 AM	If you mean with open field some place on the surface than I guess they would loose. On their attack at mithril hall they trained themselves to see light but than when the sun raised in the valley they couldn't endure the sunlight and retreated. If they would fight at night they could win I think, because they have no problems to send in their great numbers of slaves to get the enemy tired before their Drow warriors attack. Look at the Orc hordes of King Obould who conquered a lot of land and know imagine an drow army behind them using the orcs as meetshields :eek: On the other hand if an survace army would try to go to the underdark and attack an drow city they wont stand a chance and I think its good that the drow didn't conquer mithril hall because I don't believe that someone could reconquer it when the drow had fortified themselves in there.
Suin Bahhar 10-24-07, 10:28 AM	Look at Dambrath. This country deliberately attacked a drow city underneath the mines it was exploiting. The armies were desecrated by the night time assaults of the drow, their nobles infiltrated and assassinated by drow and half-drow assassins, their commoners terrifyed and scattered across the land. The halfdrow clerics of Loviatar that infiltrated the surface soon got the right from the drow conquerers to hold onto the lands and a sadistic halfdrow elite took the seat of power up untill the current times. Drow warfare is like a shadowwar. A blackish, cloaked and silent, strongly equipped army will make slaughter-and-run attacks, using illusion and teleportation to strike where it hurts, mindcontol and necromancy to spread fear and chaos amongst troops and summoning demons as assault siege weapons. Lolth knows how to wage wars. Ruthless.
ExtinctionBeta 10-24-07, 10:35 AM	Elimenster is human. Thus he is ilbith. But I'm pretty damn sure he could kick thier asses.
Lord Karsus 10-24-07, 10:57 AM	Elimenster is human. Thus he is ilbith. But I'm pretty damn sure he could kick thier asses. -Not that any Drow would admit that. Perhaps a few...
ExtinctionBeta 10-25-07, 12:27 PM	-Not that any Drow would admit that. Perhaps a few... So they would see there matron mother get a fireball in the face and then reply: " She must have tripped over a rock or somthing...I'll take this ibilth Elimenster out...no problem!" And so on repeats the process.. That's why I thought it would have been cool in the war of the spider queen for somthing humanoid to be the desctructor of the city, thus changing the Drows point of view on the surface world. I bet a Paladin's faith is stronger in thier God, than that of a Drow and Lolth.
Lord Karsus 10-25-07, 12:50 PM	So they would see there matron mother get a fireball in the face and then reply: " She must have tripped over a rock or somthing...I'll take this ibilth Elimenster out...no problem!" And so on repeats the process.. -Well, it would never be that straighforward, especially with Drow and Elminster involved.
ExtinctionBeta 10-25-07, 01:04 PM	Are any Drow allied with a seprate race/diety/area other than Drizzt or Jarlaxell? I know they are a few who do thier own thing like in The thousand Orcs series, but they were still Drow Biast.
Puritan13 10-25-07, 01:08 PM	Drow have been known to work with a few different races. Illithids and dueregar come to immediately to mind.
ExtinctionBeta 10-25-07, 01:25 PM	Drow have been known to work with a few different races. Illithids and dueregar come to immediately to mind. Which are also in the underdark.....
creyzi4zb12 10-25-07, 01:51 PM	Drow nowadays are getting very popular. It's time we open up the light of fame to teh orcs!! Woot!! Although I really think that orcs are more popular than drow.
Puritan13 10-25-07, 02:09 PM	I don't know about orcs. Theres just something wrong with an entire race that has porcine characteristics.
Alediran 10-25-07, 02:24 PM	Yeah, they look like hairy Gamorreans.
AffableDoomwalker 10-25-07, 05:42 PM	EB - have you read Lords of Darkness, or the FRCS recently? look into both of 'em, and focus especially on the House Jaerle Drow, the guys with Jezz the Lame. I think if you'd look into those particular Drow you'd see them moving away form the generic-salvatorian/worthless lolcow drow.
ExtinctionBeta 10-25-07, 06:46 PM	EB - have you read Lords of Darkness, or the FRCS recently? look into both of 'em, and focus especially on the House Jaerle Drow, the guys with Jezz the Lame. I think if you'd look into those particular Drow you'd see them moving away form the generic-salvatorian/worthless lolcow drow. Why woukd I read this?!? Rofl....I don't think you know who I am. If Drow aren't dying...I don't like it. creyzi4zb12 :Drow nowadays are getting very popular. It's time we open up the light of fame to teh orcs!! Woot!! Although I really think that orcs are more popular than drow. (they need a command for spoilers and quotes...there is somthing wrong with more comp because it never works for me) And for the orc lover....NO! Orc are not more popular...you just like orc...you and you only. Orc will never be the best. Maybe Many arrows will get his own novel set...but there is no way in hell the orcs will win my vote. After reading Promise of the witch king....and seeing the how Pansie the half orcs are...I never want to read about another orc again...and those were the smart orcs. It does not matter what you think is popular, you can ask anyone on this forum, and you will be the only one to say orc is thier favorite race. I am not bashing, you are actually one my favorite posters.
Suin Bahhar 10-25-07, 07:14 PM	Orcs are the slaves of drow.
_Jarlaxle_ 10-26-07, 04:54 AM	It does not matter what you think is popular, you can ask anyone on this forum, and you will be the only one to say orc is thier favorite race. I am not bashing, you are actually one my favorite posters. Didn't you say you want to leave the Forums? :rolleyes: I for myself will not write in one of your threads again....
Zanan 10-26-07, 06:39 AM	Didn't you say you want to leave the Forums? :rolleyes: I for myself will not write in one of your threads again.... You mean because Extinction Beta is swapping and changing things about, things he only knows from novels while ignoring to read the lorebooks, even the free ones? Good point. Extinction ... in case you do not have that much time for reading, just help yourself for half an hour of wikipedia on the drow. It will give you an first-glance insight on them, deities and allies and somesuch. And thus it will answer many of your questions. As for Elminster "kicking their backs", he would not be the only one. Any Great Wyrm would kick that too, of you send him/her in a drow cities cavern. But they won't do that in a novel or a lorebook, because they show some sense to theme, setting and culture.
_Jarlaxle_ 10-26-07, 07:39 AM	You mean because Extinction Beta is swapping and changing things about, things he only knows from novels while ignoring to read the lorebooks, even the free ones? Good point. . Although I'm not very long here too, I would bet my ass that he is just a Troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) account of some other user who wants to make some "fun"... damn it, i did it again :s
creyzi4zb12 10-26-07, 08:13 AM	Well orcs may be overrated in Forgotten Realms. But I'm sure orcs rule in other fantasy settings. And hey, look at the bright side, orcs aren't really THAT underrated in Faerun. Authors use them most of the time...for fodder, for dangerous ambushers, for unstoppable enemies that come around in uncountable numbers, for dumb villains, for comedy. Faerun has lots of huge history about orcs, The OrcgateWars, Dark Arrow legacy, Gondrunners, The great orc bloodbath at MythDrannor (even before Elminster came), General Vrakk the great champion at the Tuigan Wars and the fall of Zhentil Keep, General Vorr of the forgotten, The combination of Gruumsh and Lloth.... Speaking of Lloth, I forgot to mention the fact that I have been talking about orcs instead of.........Did I forget something?
Orcish-Firebat 10-27-07, 12:16 AM	Drow are raised to enjoy slaughtering under the ground rather than enjoy dancing under the moon, we already see that how the moon elves and drow elves raise their little children are very much different. Drow are saddistic and act like bondage junkies, these people are whipped or beaten by their own mom daily, they are trained for the first 3 decades of their life to kill. They are constantly in a fuedal state within their own city at war with each other. Even their commoners are well trained as any other warrior if not better Moon elves are far from saddistic and have no real reason to constantly train early in life, they usually are not at war and there does seem to be a more of a commoner class among them that does not need to fight. Yes Moon eleves can be deadly but if you take an average you would see that every drow has training while there are many elves walking around not near as equipt as them. Adamantine is a strong metal is a far more common resource deep in the underdark so it would make since for the Drow to be well equiped with weapons and armor. If you ever read the book "Servant of the Shard" you would hear much about how the city of calimport was similar to The Drow City of Menzoberranzan but the weakest of drow would find itself amon the strongest of the skilled human assassins and warriors in the city In "Siege Of Darkness" over the battle for Mithral Hall there is a battle of a large army Drow soldiers fighting in open field agaist the humans and dwarves. The drow lose but it is obvious that they do tons and tons of damage agaist the the dwarves and humans that out numbered them.
creyzi4zb12 10-27-07, 02:11 AM	Yes. The drow only lost because their enemies outnumbered them. Which states the fact that in a battle, the skills of the warriors doesn't matter, it is strength by numbers that matter most in a battle. Take the battle at Siege of Darkness for example. The drow were very powerful creatures, the weakest of their kin can be paired up with the strongest of the surface dwellers. But they lost the battle, they lost the battle because finessese and strength of the warriors in a battle will always give way to numbers....and by numbers I don't mean a number that just outnumbers them, but I mean a number that really outnumbers them!! Take Dark Arrow orcs for example. They didn't just outnumber their enemies (the allegiance of dwarves, humans and elves) they TOTALLY OUTNUMBERED THEM. In a battle number is what matter most Take Maztica (Ironhelm) for example. You can see that no matter how good the Bishou's troops were, when they got outnumbered by the Nexalans in Nexal their great skills and tactics could never do anything against the Nexalan's numbers.
Straploknight 10-27-07, 02:52 AM	But remember that the Drizzt novels first appeared way back in 1988--almost ten years before 1997 (who came up with that magic date?). Or even before that with the original Unearthed Arcana, drow have been an officially playable race since 1st Ed.
ExtinctionBeta 10-27-07, 04:12 AM	Although I'm not very long here too, I would bet my ass that he is just a Troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) account of some other user who wants to make some "fun"... damn it, i did it again :s ?????????? I don't understand.? Are you upset because Jarlaxelle is a Drow and I made this topic? I don't think I've been posting illogical or unheard of post. Is there something I can do to change your mind?
Zanan 10-27-07, 04:56 AM	Yes. The drow only lost because their enemies outnumbered them. Which states the fact that in a battle, the skills of the warriors doesn't matter, it is strength by numbers that matter most in a battle. Take the battle at Siege of Darkness for example. The drow were very powerful creatures, the weakest of their kin can be paired up with the strongest of the surface dwellers. But they lost the battle, they lost the battle because finessese and strength of the warriors in a battle will always give way to numbers....and by numbers I don't mean a number that just outnumbers them, but I mean a number that really outnumbers them!! Take Dark Arrow orcs for example. They didn't just outnumber their enemies (the allegiance of dwarves, humans and elves) they TOTALLY OUTNUMBERED THEM. In a battle number is what matter most Take Maztica (Ironhelm) for example. You can see that no matter how good the Bishou's troops were, when they got outnumbered by the Nexalans in Nexal their great skills and tactics could never do anything against the Nexalan's numbers. No. Numbers matter, but not that much. Especially in a magical setting when one side features magical-apt people whereas the other don't. What turned the tide in the Battle of Keeper's Dale was not the number but the drow's opposition, but the sunlight. Not to mention the intent of the author to have the drow defeated. At the beginning of that book series, we get to know Drizzt in that raiding party to the surface and there the priestess - after the night's bloody work - introduces her warriors to the sun, tells them all what there is to know. During the battle though, all those well seasoned drow fighters and wizards and priestesses suddenly act like headless chicken instead like making a tactcial retreat to continue the slaughter the next night. Yet, as I said, do keep in mind the author's intent in a novel. If a group has to win, it will win, even against all odds. If it shall fail, it will fail, even if it holds all the trumps.
Rauric 10-27-07, 09:49 AM	It is all about who is writing the novels. Drow are pretty powerful due to the fact that their stats are better than the average human, elf, dwarf, halfling, orc ect. Spell Resistance is pretty damn useful as is darkness and blindfight (if they have it).
ExtinctionBeta 10-27-07, 10:16 AM	It is all about who is writing the novels. Drow are pretty powerful due to the fact that their stats are better than the average human, elf, dwarf, halfling, orc ect. Spell Resistance is pretty damn useful as is darkness and blindfight (if they have it). I wish humans would have the ability of technology. Ever read Shannara novels? In the history of that fantasy world, humans use to be hardcore living up to 150 years old. Then ended up destroying each other with just the push of buttons. Then reverted back to their old ways. Elves were always the same according to him. But man, I want to see the Drow perfecting sword play..then see some Navy Seals walk in...then the drow have globe of darkness: nope,nope, night vision goggles. Maybe it is because of the on-going state of war that fantasy world is in for the reasoning of none-innovation.
Orcish-Firebat 10-27-07, 10:18 AM	No. Numbers matter, but not that much. Especially in a magical setting when one side features magical-apt people whereas the other don't. What turned the tide in the Battle of Keeper's Dale was not the number but the drow's opposition, but the sunlight. Not to mention the intent of the author to have the drow defeated. At the beginning of that book series, we get to know Drizzt in that raiding party to the surface and there the priestess - after the night's bloody work - introduces her warriors to the sun, tells them all what there is to know. During the battle though, all those well seasoned drow fighters and wizards and priestesses suddenly act like headless chicken instead like making a tactcial retreat to continue the slaughter the next night. Yet, as I said, do keep in mind the author's intent in a novel. If a group has to win, it will win, even against all odds. If it shall fail, it will fail, even if it holds all the trumps. You are right that numbers arnt everything, the light did play a large roll in defeating the drow but also their self serving nature played a large part of the battle. Part of the drows weakness is that they are willing to sell out anyone and anythign for personal gain, if it suits a drows personal benefit to kill a couple of his buddies grab their loot and runaway from a potenially deadly battle then they will do it. Drow are deadly but if they dont have any morale or they get in a sticky situation they will obviously do what ever is better for them than their cause, in general. If you are able strike out at the drows morale then you really dont have to kill many to win, just make sure that the potential risks of the battle are greater than the gains for any individual drow and instead of seeing an imposing army, instead you will see a swarm of self serving independent assassins looting and killign and fleeing in every direction. Drow are practicaly the polor opposite of a dwarf when it comes to unity, instead of helping their wounded off the ground and battling to the end, you have them looting each other and picking off their neibors they dislike in the chaos.
creyzi4zb12 10-27-07, 01:34 PM	I wish humans would have the ability of technology. Ever read Shannara novels? In the history of that fantasy world, humans use to be hardcore living up to 150 years old. Then ended up destroying each other with just the push of buttons. Then reverted back to their old ways. Elves were always the same according to him. But man, I want to see the Drow perfecting sword play..then see some Navy Seals walk in...then the drow have globe of darkness: nope,nope, night vision goggles. Maybe it is because of the on-going state of war that fantasy world is in for the reasoning of none-innovation. Humans do have the power of technology. Sometimes even technology could overcome magic. If you read the book Gondrunner, you can see that the gunpowders were able to have brainburn in them. But technology isn't that strong or important in Faerun.
ExtinctionBeta 10-27-07, 04:03 PM	Humans do have the power of technology. Sometimes even technology could overcome magic. If you read the book Gondrunner, you can see that the gunpowders were able to have brainburn in them. But technology isn't that strong or important in Faerun. Depending on how advanced it is. I'd take a nuke over Elimenster any day.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-27-07, 08:35 PM	Technology is simply applied knowledge. I'd say that's very important to the people of Faerun.
GothicDan 10-27-07, 08:41 PM	And I'd argue that technology is largely inclusive of magic. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-27-07, 09:05 PM	And I'd argue that technology is largely inclusive of magic. :) Yes, I think so too, at least in some measure.
johnkretzer 10-27-07, 10:00 PM	I wish humans would have the ability of technology. Ever read Shannara novels? In the history of that fantasy world, humans use to be hardcore living up to 150 years old. Then ended up destroying each other with just the push of buttons. Then reverted back to their old ways. Elves were always the same according to him. But man, I want to see the Drow perfecting sword play..then see some Navy Seals walk in...then the drow have globe of darkness: nope,nope, night vision goggles. Maybe it is because of the on-going state of war that fantasy world is in for the reasoning of none-innovation. You just don't get it do you?
Zanan 10-28-07, 04:08 AM	You are right that numbers arnt everything, the light did play a large roll in defeating the drow but also their self serving nature played a large part of the battle. Part of the drows weakness is that they are willing to sell out anyone and anythign for personal gain, if it suits a drows personal benefit to kill a couple of his buddies grab their loot and runaway from a potenially deadly battle then they will do it. Drow are deadly but if they dont have any morale or they get in a sticky situation they will obviously do what ever is better for them than their cause, in general. If you are able strike out at the drows morale then you really dont have to kill many to win, just make sure that the potential risks of the battle are greater than the gains for any individual drow and instead of seeing an imposing army, instead you will see a swarm of self serving independent assassins looting and killign and fleeing in every direction. Drow are practicaly the polor opposite of a dwarf when it comes to unity, instead of helping their wounded off the ground and battling to the end, you have them looting each other and picking off their neibors they dislike in the chaos. Just keep in mind my last sentence. While much of what you say is valid, the drow are represented in a way to suit the author's or designer's needs. In the case, the author's. We've seen a quite different side of the drow warfare in WotSQ ... or, e.g. during the Night Wars in Calimshan. The raiding teams are indeed self- or House-serving gangs, but once an army is set in motion, like during the inter-House wars or WotSQ and even that Baenre strike force, they act very much like a normal army. Give and take the odd disagreement between the troops from various Houses, though this did not lead to bloodletting amongst the drow themselves. We should keep this in mind instead of walking the tightrope of looking on them only using the stereotypes valid for the nobles first and foremost. (And I am still at a loss what some people have to do to finally get a lashing from the WizOs ...)
ExtinctionBeta 10-28-07, 02:42 PM	You just don't get it do you? No, I don't think you get it. I gave an example of what I'd think would be a cool set up. It was a idea...not a statement. Get your posting straight.
GothicDan 10-28-07, 04:02 PM	Gloves of darkness can't be pierced by nonmagical (including technological) means. So the Seals would be in the crapper.
johnkretzer 10-28-07, 06:59 PM	No, I don't think you get it. I gave an example of what I'd think would be a cool set up. It was a idea...not a statement. Get your posting straight. Sure then post you Navy Seal vs Drow Scenario on the d20 Mordern boards. These are FR boards modern day Navy Seals don't exist in the FR.
ExtinctionBeta 10-29-07, 12:50 PM	Sure then post you Navy Seal vs Drow Scenario on the d20 Mordern boards. These are FR boards modern day Navy Seals don't exist in the FR. How sad...Realms are how old? Yet they can't advnace themselves in knowelege even with over 100 living Gods. 200 Years got us from wooden houses to nano technology. I am so sick of FR readers...they are limited beyond comprehension....no character interaction...no bad guys winning...no advancment. Don't you think it would be cool to caculate luck..magic..movement with some kind of radar to track people. Energy swords like in halo vs stupid fire enchanment FR swords. Rocket Launchers vs Fire balls. Dragon air raids vs f16 bombings.
Puritan13 10-29-07, 12:53 PM	How sad...Realms are how old? Yet they can't advnace themselves in knowelege even with over 100 living Gods. 200 Years got us from wooden houses to nano technology. I am so sick of FR readers...they are limited beyond comprehension....no character interaction...no bad guys winning...no advancment.And EB's alienation of board members continues...
Zanan 10-29-07, 01:29 PM	How sad...Realms are how old? Yet they can't advnace themselves in knowelege even with over 100 living Gods. 200 Years got us from wooden houses to nano technology. I am so sick of FR readers...they are limited beyond comprehension....no character interaction...no bad guys winning...no advancment. Don't you think it would be cool to caculate luck..magic..movement with some kind of radar to track people. Energy swords like in halo vs stupid fire enchanment FR swords. Rocket Launchers vs Fire balls. Dragon air raids vs f16 bombings. Well sad indeed. Obviously, keep in mind that the Romans had their "realm" for about 1,200 years and expanded from a lowly city state to an empire covering all of civilized Europe and more. No Navy Seals nor Fighting Falcons either. Why don't we need somesuch? Because we have disintegrate, greater teleport, summon monster XI and gate, maximized empowered magic missiles and the like. Any WizO about?
ExtinctionBeta 10-29-07, 01:36 PM	Well sad indeed. Obviously, keep in mind that the Romans had their "realm" for about 1,200 years and expanded from a lowly city state to an empire covering all of civilized Europe and more. No Navy Seals nor Fighting Falcons either. Why don't we need somesuch? Because we have disintegrate, greater teleport, summon monster XI and gate, maximized empowered magic missiles and the like. Any WizO about? ACTUALLY, the Romans were very advanced. They had swere systems and their calander was only 2 days off from that of today. Any further advancments were haulted because of constant conflict of assasination of it's Emperors or ever-going War. "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." ..........Ferdinand Magellan
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-29-07, 01:47 PM	No one here cares about your opinions about religion. Stay on topic, for once!
ExtinctionBeta 10-29-07, 01:51 PM	No one here cares about your opinions about religion. Stay on topic, for once! 1st: It's not a opinion, it is fact. Logic over faith anyday. Who is no one? Do you consiter yourself popular concensus for everyone? What you say speaks for everyone? I have never heard anyone else have a delima with it besides you. 2nd:I was replying to the post of a statment another member had made. I did not randomly post religion. It was helping a point I was making. 3rd:When do you ever stay on topic? You always bash me, You make up random statements claiming I don't know the difference between 2 characters that you had confused with a different person. 4th: The comment wasn't directed to you, therefore it is not your place to reply to it. If the person I was having a conversation with doesn't like my post, let them tell me, not you! 5th: Put me on ignore list, ever time you talk to me it's always negitave. You really don't seem to like me, so I suggest you ignore me so we can avoid any further conflict. I do not want to flame with you and I will not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-29-07, 02:17 PM	1st: It's not a opinion, it is fact. Logic over faith anyday. Who is no one? Do you consiter yourself popular concensus for everyone? What you say speaks for everyone? I have never heard anyone else have a delima with it besides you. Irrelevant. If you want to argue about real world religion, please go to a more appropriate venue to do so. This forum is for discussing the Realms, not the benefits or lack thereof of real world religion. Your comments are off-topic and in violation of the CoC.
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 03:37 PM	How sad...Realms are how old? Yet they can't advnace themselves in knowelege even with over 100 living Gods. 200 Years got us from wooden houses to nano technology. I am so sick of FR readers...they are limited beyond comprehension....no character interaction...no bad guys winning...no advancment. Don't you think it would be cool to caculate luck..magic..movement with some kind of radar to track people. Energy swords like in halo vs stupid fire enchanment FR swords. Rocket Launchers vs Fire balls. Dragon air raids vs f16 bombings. Well as you pointed out relgion slows things down so I guess with over a 100 'living' gods it would slow things down to a crawl.... Also why spend the time to design a rocket launcher when you have a fireball? Nanotechnology? Why bother when healing magic is available, polymorph magic etc. Logicaly the presence of magic will stunt the development of science. Though settings where magic and technology mixes can be entertaining( Shadowrun, Dragonstar, Rifts, D20 Modern comes to mind), but if I want that I would play those games(which I do) but if I want medival to renissance fantasyu adventure I play in the Realms. Character interaction? I don't get this complaint. As for the good guys always winning check you novels again. If anything good as rarely if ever gained ground(I can think of it happening once). It has all been about defending what goods has. Even the one time good has regained something they have spent lots of time later on defending it. So tell me if your knowledge of history is so good how many people have ever won a war fighting a defensive action? I am curious what FR novels or books to you own? And have you ever player D&D set in the FR? Maybe the FR isn't what you want my suggestion would be to find copies of Dragonstar it is outprint so you can pick it up really cheap. Or better yet books do you like?
Red_Wizard 10-29-07, 05:40 PM	I agree with your response JK, so will leave it as is, unless EB requires more argument that what you have given. As for whether or not he has ever played DnD, the answer is no. He has never so much as touched a book as far as I can tell, and refuses to for some unknown personal reason. While I can't speak with 100% accuracy to the books he has read, his arguments suggest very few have been either read, or understood. This is based upon biased responses regarding assumption, and remarks regarding characters from novels. Had he read said pieces, he should not find any ground from which to base such debates. -RW
ExtinctionBeta 10-29-07, 05:49 PM	Irrelevant. If you want to argue about real world religion, please go to a more appropriate venue to do so. This forum is for discussing the Realms, not the benefits or lack thereof of real world religion. Your comments are off-topic and in violation of the CoC. I find it funnny how everyone else here is talking subject, and you only get on this topic just to keep bashing me...seriosuly ignore me or leave me alone. If I am in violation...report me! Whatever it takes for you to stop talking to me. Very funny to my other 4 points, this is the only comment back. RED AND JK. SORRY GUYS..BUT IT'S GETTING ANNOYING...ASK YOURSELF...DO I PLAY DND? I CAN'T COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I'VE GONE OVER THIS. And you Red should know this answer best over anyone, for you were one of the 1st people I posted with when I came on this forum.
Red_Wizard 10-29-07, 06:00 PM	I am well aware of you stating that you have not played. BUT, that doesn't excuse why you haven't tried to read up on the sources. It makes you look foolish to keep yelling the same thing time and again, when time and again you are countered with material you haven't read. Would you go to court prepared only with the statement of "I'm innocent" and expect to be able to win, simply because you are saying it over and over again? You'd be locked up for mental instability at best. SO PLEASE, look into the sources, and THEN come back with arguments and complaints on the subject. If you had played, or did look, you'd not have to get so angry when people ask if you have. The novels are based on a game, not the game being based on the novels. You are looking through a keyhole at the Sistine chapel here, only to turn around and yell at those who have been inside, that it's not that impressive. Open the doors and look inside, or you'll continue to be treated as the ignorant prick you are coming across as. -RW
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-29-07, 06:40 PM	I find it funnny how everyone else here is talking subject, and you only get on this topic just to keep bashing me...seriosuly ignore me or leave me alone. Oh, so you did absolutey nothing wrong (except bash religious people...again!), you are completely innocent, and it's me who's going off-topic? Well, let's see what the moderators have to say about that. I didn't respond to your other 4 points, because they are, like point number 1, irrevelant. You violated the CoC.
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 06:50 PM	RED AND JK. SORRY GUYS..BUT IT'S GETTING ANNOYING...ASK YOURSELF...DO I PLAY DND? I CAN'T COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I'VE GONE OVER THIS. And you Red should know this answer best over anyone, for you were one of the 1st people I posted with when I came on this forum. I am sorry I don't know if you played D&D ever so you might not understand things I am saying and I would try to go futher in depth to explain them to you. Also I am curious about your exposure to the Realms. Because evidently you don't like them which is fine. Not everyone will like the same thing, if they did it would be a boring world. My questions was perhaps to stear you towards something you might enjoy better. The rest of my statement was to refrute what you have said. Anyway I hope now that you'll answear the questions as it seems to be driving you and us crazy.
Zanan 10-29-07, 07:49 PM	ACTUALLY, the Romans were very advanced. They had swere systems and their calander was only 2 days off from that of today. Any further advancments were haulted because of constant conflict of assasination of it's Emperors or ever-going War. Plus condone the fact that Religion slows society down. And they were poly-theistic. We would be 1500 years ahed in technology if Religous sickos wern't burning our greatest minds at stake. "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." ..........Ferdinand Magellan No need telling me about the Romans, I studied Ancient History, you know. I was only replying to your question why the drow (or other Realmsian civilizations) have not developed high-tech like Fighting Falcons during their existence. Was that on-topic? I fear so. I'm voluntarily venture to the next Loviatar temple for punishment ... for I'm afraid I commited a cardinal sin here.
GothicDan 10-29-07, 10:54 PM	ACTUALLY, the Romans were very advanced. They had swere systems and their calander was only 2 days off from that of today. Indeed. Don't talk to people about things you know not much on, UNTIL you've gotten credentials on said person. We won't talk about the Augustan Kalens updates or anything...
WizO_Sith 10-29-07, 11:36 PM	I do appologize to those folks who're trying to enjoy this discussion without the constant flames/interruptions, but this thread has gotten too flame-ridden to be left unlocked (and the arguments/counter-arguments too numerous to correct/remove). Therefore, this thread will be locked. *Click*