Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hockeyteam 01-30-07, 08:53 PM	Ok so I havent been keeping up with Realms events, but I came across this in a product description of the second part of the 'superadventure': "Elminster’s tower lies in ruins, and the town of Shadowdale has been conquered by evil Sharrans and the nefarious forces of Zhentil Keep." Did Elminster decide to by a lake house somewhere? Has there been a massive Sharran/Zhent movement in the literature, or are the writers of the adventure just pulling **** out of the proverbial arse?
Dark Wizard 01-30-07, 10:13 PM	We'll probably know more when the adventure comes out. Right now the authors are very hush, hush about it, vicious NDAs and all.
The Simbul 01-31-07, 12:17 AM	The storyline manages to both interest me, yet also has the potential to be really over-reaching eye-roller. Too much of it on the surface at least seems to be a regurgitation of the central themes behind the Return of the Archwizards...i.e. the notion of the shadow weave's (mechanically unfounded) "uberness", and the contrived shocker elements of Elminster & co being smacked around for the enjoyment of the anti-Mystra crowd as well as the utter destruction of cities as a casual affair (Evereska, Tilverton, and [almost] Shade; this time it appears to be Tilverton 2.0 and Shadowdale for shock value). That said I am actually quite optimistic about the adventures, am looking forward to them, and am willing to give the series the benefit of the doubt, specifically with so many authors on board. Still, the quotation in the title of this thread raises some serious questions.. The first of the three adventure books is supposed to take the players from 4th level to 8th level. Logically I would imagine the Shadowdale adventure, being the second book, would be the sequel for said players, picking up where they left off, both in storyline and in character advancement. Thus I would certainly find it interesting to see what backstory elements would explain how a group of antagonists powerful enough to apparently drive out Elminster, or at least lay waste to his (magically defended) tower while he is conveniently off somewhere else, would simultaneously still be antagonists who could fit into the level-range scope of challenges suitable for the players in the adventure (presumably levels 8-12). Moreover, the Shadow Weave is an obvious theme in the adventure series, though hopefully its non-coterminous status with the Weave wont be a storytelling crutch to explain away the events leading to the title of this thread. On that note, as to the anticipated issue of the Shadow Weave's possible use in destroying or bypassing the defenses of Elminster's tower; I would love to extend the arguement to any DM or designer who has A) read The Summoning and Elminster in Hell B) read Champions of Valor C) looked up Elminster's INT score to explain why Elminster's Tower, or other important locales to Mystra and her servants in Shadowdale itself, are not already be within dead shadow weave magic zones. Elminster, along with the rest of the Chosen, has every reason to ward his dwelling against Shar's false weave, given that both his entrapment in Avernus and his return Toril were accompanied by cowardly ambushes from multiple shadow adepts. Elminster likewise has every reason to have access to the rend shadow weaveCoV spell, primarily since he is a Chosen of Mystra, and because the Guardians of the Weave, who created the spell, have a guild residence in Shadowdale itself (along with safehouses in every other city where a Chosen resides). Three moonstones, three minutes, and three third level spell slots are all that is needed for Elminster to render his three-story tower impervious to Shadow Weave magic. So hopefully the shadow weave wont be an "easy button" in explaining why a certain Shadowdale structure in the shape of a windmill silo has suddenly been reduced to rubble, despite the wardings and defenses it should be expected to carry.
MarkusTay63 01-31-07, 12:24 AM	It will be whatever they say it is, and for no other reason because they can. 'artistic license' my a:censored: This 'shadow weave' is getting old quick.
Lord Karsus 01-31-07, 02:17 AM	-It could just be that Elminster has some ancient ruins in his basement. -I'm just sayin' though...
BrianCritchley 01-31-07, 02:38 AM	personally I'm growing tired of realms shaking events. although with the amount of em I've come to the conclusion that the time of troubles did not in fact end with the gods return to the planes and that faerun is still undergoing the time of troubles. basicly a few years later they'lll call a 20 year or so period the time of troubles.
Lord Karsus 01-31-07, 02:22 PM	personally I'm growing tired of realms shaking events. -You're not the only one. I think we all are. Conflict, and changes are all good- after all, nothing is static in a living, ever-changing world. But, WotC seriously needs to tone things down a bit.
Calmar 01-31-07, 03:30 PM	*A peasant wearing simple often repaired clothing enters the room, leaving muddy traces on the floor.* "Why can't ya just use a catapult or two to blast this Elminster's tower to pieces, or blow it up with a smokepowder-bomb?" :D
The Simbul 01-31-07, 04:10 PM	personally I'm growing tired of realms shaking events. although with the amount of em I've come to the conclusion that the time of troubles did not in fact end with the gods return to the planes and that faerun is still undergoing the time of troubles. basicly a few years later they'lll call a 20 year or so period the time of troubles.I do not mind "realms shaking" events in the context of an adventure (or adventure series) if the events are self contained, they allow for the players to be the ones who resolve/restrain the extent of the damage caused by the antagonists, and if in the end the setting is not drastically scarred by it and continuity is frayed but still preserved. Moreover, I do not think they could be so lacking in foresight to simply kill off Elminster in the prologue or epilogue of an adventure, specifically given how much a waste of potential profit it would be in terms of novels (especially when he could be killed off in a novel, which would be the best and likely only fitting venue for such a character to go). Likewise, killing off an iconic character in the back story of an adventure could also precipitate a considerable backlash, specifically if Greenwood wasn't on board.
clevercommie 01-31-07, 04:56 PM	Maybe their just trying to break the cycle of "hey look a bad guy, and another bad guy, ow wait a third, oh no Elminsters here, and suddenly were bereft of said bad guys..." or thats exactly what they're doing all over again.
Stigger 01-31-07, 05:37 PM	Reserving judgement on it... though I'm more concerned about Storm's fate than anyone elses there. All kinda depends on how it's done I guess, though I have a feeling it's never going to happen in my Realms.
Lord Karsus 01-31-07, 05:44 PM	Moreover, I do not think they could be so lacking in foresight to simply kill off Elminster in the prologue or epilogue of an adventure, specifically given how much a waste of potential profit it would be in terms of novels (especially when he could be killed off in a novel, which would be the best and likely only fitting venue for such a character to go). -I don't think it said that Elminster was dead, did it?
The Simbul 01-31-07, 06:14 PM	No the backcover doesnt say he is dead, I was just espousing a preemptive statement on my opinion as to the potential for it. My reactive foresight on the issue is more directed towards any future suggestions in this thread that the book may entail Elminster's death, based on this thread's title quote, rather than towards the idea that the authors would actually consider doing it, or at least do it in this manner.
Old Sage 01-31-07, 07:00 PM	The "Shadowdale" module has also been discussed at Candlekeep, with some interesting speculations:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8072
Stigger 02-02-07, 01:28 AM	I still say it has something to do with Fzoul revealing himself as El's love child and turning him to the dark side... Just as valid a piece of conjecture as any at this point really. ;)
Green Elven Vampire 02-02-07, 01:52 AM	Heck, I hope there will be a new elven city of Shadow Weave casters who worship Erevan Ilesere!! ;)
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 02:25 AM	-Yeah...Woo-hoo...:rolleyes:
BrianCritchley 02-02-07, 02:34 AM	I iamgine the most likely thing is elminister and storm are both not in shadowdale at this time. as chosen of mystra their duties take em elsewhere on occasion after all.
Green Elven Vampire 02-02-07, 03:00 AM	-Yeah...Woo-hoo...:rolleyes: Yeah, +5 vorpal Woo-hoo!!!
Green Elven Vampire 02-02-07, 03:00 AM	-Yeah...Woo-hoo...:rolleyes: Yeah, +5 vorpal Woo-hoo of speed!!!
Green Elven Vampire 02-02-07, 03:01 AM	-Yeah...Woo-hoo...:rolleyes: Yeah, +5 vorpal Woo-hoo of speed and Lord Karsus Bane!!!
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 04:26 AM	They already killed off Blackstaff in the new novel! What’s going on? Some sort of wholesale slaughter of all the chosen? They really need to tone everything down and take a step back.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 04:39 AM	Is it not rather convenient that every time Shadow Dale gets in a crap load of trouble Elminster is off plane hopping somewhere? I mean doesn’t this guy have contingency plans? He’s not an idiot! He would at least have some sort of magical early warning system to let him know his CRIB is being ransacked. He’s 1162 years old! The bad guys really shouldn’t be able to surprise this guy. Maybe overwhelm him by shear numbers, but not surprise him. I always thought that if the big bad guys ever came at EL in force that he would just plane shift the entire structure until he had time to resolve local matters. I’m just throwing that out there.
Renvale999 02-02-07, 08:02 AM	I wouldn't be surprised if they killed off the chosen, kinda of restart to the realms. I don't know, I think it would be a cool campaign for a bunch of PC's to figure out, after the fact, how Eliminster and crew have been slaughtered and now it's the PC's job to find who, what, where and why. Sounds like a cool campaign to me. And to re-interate something said above, I am also more concerned about Storm than Eliminster. Always had a soft spot for her.
Renvale999 02-02-07, 08:02 AM	Is it not rather convenient that every time Shadow Dale gets in a crap load of trouble Elminster is off plane hopping somewhere? I mean doesn’t this guy have contingency plans? He’s not an idiot! He would at least have some sort of magical early warning system to let him know his CRIB is being ransacked. He’s 1162 years old! The bad guys really shouldn’t be able to surprise this guy. Maybe overwhelm him by shear numbers, but not surprise him. I always thought that if the big bad guys ever came at EL in force that he would just plane shift the entire structure until he had time to resolve local matters. I’m just throwing that out there. Well said and I agree.
draco1119 02-02-07, 08:11 AM	...Elminster likewise has every reason to have access to the rend shadow weaveCoV spell, primarily since he is a Chosen of Mystra, and because the Guardians of the Weave, who created the spell, have a guild residence in Shadowdale itself (along with safehouses in every other city where a Chosen resides)... And the fact that he's done it before, at the end of Elminster in Hell, while everybody else was busy FUBARing people.
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 12:13 PM	-Great...Another clone...:rolleyes: Yeah, +5 vorpal Woo-hoo of speed and Lord Karsus Bane!!! -Ah, I didn't know they made Lord Karsus Bane weapons. What book is that in? I really need to take a look at that! ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 05:45 PM	Not a clone. Son of the failed God and not proud of Dad!
JaiaDrottsingr 02-02-07, 05:51 PM	Not a clone. Son of the failed God and not proud of Dad! That must suck. If you didn't have "Karsus" in your name, I'd have you join my ranks, yet, alas. Now I have to *kill* you.
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 05:51 PM	Not a clone. Son of the failed God and not proud of Dad! -Nope, I/We never had any children. One of those damned clones probably got loose at some point and...well, you know...:cool:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 06:13 PM	The clone spell was illegal in Netheril, because of the negative side effects and the resulting destruction that ensued. Karsus was a mad man and a bit short sighted but I doubt he was an idiot. As a matter of fact he was such an egomaniac that the whole idea of a clone would have been abhorrent to him. He thought of him self as unique and uncopyable. Quit simply he would never have used the spell and would have punished any usage of the spell severely. I wouldn’t be surprised if he spear headed the campaign to make it illegal.
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 06:23 PM	The clone spell was illegal in Netheril, because of the negative side effects and the resulting destruction that ensued. Karsus was a mad man and a bit short sighted but I doubt he was an idiot. As a matter of fact he was such an egomaniac that the whole idea of a clone would have been abhorrent to him. He thought of him self as unique and uncopyable. Quit simply he would never have used the spell and would have punished any usage of the spell severely. I wouldn’t be surprised if he spear headed the campaign to make it illegal. -Nope. I/We've got quite a few clones. 'Round here, and in the Realms. 'Round here, there's "Karsus", Karsus7, Karsushalafer, Karsuskendrick, Karsus_IT, Karsus_of_Carnage, Karsus_the_Destructor, DemonGodKarsus, The_Third_Karsus and KarsustheGad. One of them is your daddy. In the Realms, there was my clone that appeared in The Temptation of Elminster. It's been so long, but I/We're not sure if I/We left any others behind. I/We never spear-headed any campaign to make the use of Clones, or Stasis Clones illegal.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 07:12 PM	Clones where illegal in Netheral! Karsus was too much of an egomaniac to ever create one.
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 07:27 PM	Clones where illegal in Netheral! Karsus was too much of an egomaniac to ever create one. -Ok, well, you keep on thinking that...:rolleyes:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 07:39 PM	Besides we have no way of knowing if Saeraede Lyonora was telling the truth about the clone or if she was even told the truth. We do know that Karsus took on a lot of Special friends during his time in Netherial and not all of them where male. It never occurred to you that he might have ancestors running around out there? I'm sure one women could not hold his attention for very long so I would be surprised if half of Cormyr wasn’t distantly related. Karsus probably father many children and left them to their own devices, because I'm sure he didn’t pay child support. As a matter of fact it would probably be healthy for a women knocked up by Karsus to get the hell out of town. What if he did have a son and that son survived to present day Faerun? P.S. The stasis Clones spell were created thousands of years later by Manshoon which proved to be detrimental to his personal growth and development.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 07:41 PM	I think you are the clone. Besides Karsus was a fool in the extreme sense of the word!
JaiaDrottsingr 02-02-07, 09:12 PM	-Nope. I/We've got quite a few clones. 'Round here, and in the Realms. 'Round here, there's "Karsus", Karsus7, Karsushalafer, Karsuskendrick, Karsus_IT, Karsus_of_Carnage, Karsus_the_Destructor, DemonGodKarsus, The_Third_Karsus and KarsustheGad. One of them is your daddy. In the Realms, there was my clone that appeared in The Temptation of Elminster. It's been so long, but I/We're not sure if I/We left any others behind. I/We never spear-headed any campaign to make the use of Clones, or Stasis Clones illegal. You forgot T3H $P^WN, KarsisXIII
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 09:24 PM	That must suck. If you didn't have "Karsus" in your name, I'd have you join my ranks, yet, alas. Now I have to *kill* you. hey I never said I like the guy!
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 10:22 PM	I think you are the clone. Besides Karsus was a fool in the extreme sense of the word! -You didn't just say that I/We am/are a clone...You didn't just say that...:waits: You forgot T3H $P^WN, KarsisXIII -Never encountered that one. Where does that one roam? Not here, since I/We've never seen it here...
JaiaDrottsingr 02-02-07, 10:29 PM	-Never encountered that one. Where does that one roam? Not here, since I/We've never seen it here... No idea. I found that username in the Member's List. It says he last visited 8-22-06, started 8-11-06 and only had 33 posts to his name.
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 10:39 PM	No idea. I found that username in the Member's List. It says he last visited 8-22-06, started 8-11-06 and only had 33 posts to his name. -Hmm...Well, I'll have to add that one to the hit-lis...I mean, list of friends to invite over for brunch...Yeah...:shifty:
Myssa Rei 02-03-07, 01:01 AM	Tsk tsk, this is what happens when the Karsii visit a thread... :) Anyway, as for the original topic... The rest of us will have to see how the modules try to suspend our disbelief, in the context of the adventures anyway. While it is a little farfetched, lore-wise, for an occurence such as the invasion of Shadowdale and the fall of Elminster's tower to happen, it does present a lot of interesting possibilities. While I love the old coot as much as the other players interested in lore, I'd always wondered what it would be like to raise a resistance movement in such a locale. Maybe I should mention it to my DM sometime... And as for those who say that adventures centered on low-to-mid level characters shouldn't have such a Realms-Shattering feel to it, need I remind them of the Avatar Crisis, and the relative character levels of the Ascended Three?
MarkusTay63 02-03-07, 01:40 AM	And to re-interate something said above, I am also more concerned about Storm than Eliminster. Always had a soft spot for her.What of poor little Lhaeo (or whatever his name is)? Doesn't HE get any love? I can just see ol' El coming home and looking at the smoking ruins and saying - "I lose more Lhaeos that way" Maybe El has gotten tired of people knocking on his door every five minutes to kill/learn-from/have-sex-with him? So he moved his place to a pocket dimension, that just so happens to be named 'Ruin'. Hence the thread title. ;) Personally I would think it was funny as hell if the old geezers feet were sticking out from under the rubble, and then his toes curl up and go inside. :D It does seem that the designers/authors are having some sort of contest lately to see who can f__k up the Realms more. So Karsus never... Ummm... 'did it'? Does that mean he's... like... ya know...? :eek:
Myssa Rei 02-03-07, 02:17 AM	Mind you, the current 'Lhaeo' El has around the tower (as of Elminster's Daughter) isn't even a he anymore (given the fact that the real Lhaeo also happens to be King Haedrack of Tethyr), though few people actually know that fact. Indeed, poor Lhaeo... My guess is that, much like the Avatar Crisis (those who have the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy will know what I mean), Elminster will be conveniently somewhere else during the proceedings, and it'll be up to the PCs to help tidy up Shadowdale while he's gone. OT: And while this paladin doesn't want to be hit by a permanent geas anytime soon, it was hinted in the old Netheril supplements (as well as the How Mighty is the Fallen adventure) that Karsus had some...unique, tastes, and these extended to his chosen 'friends'. Interestingly enough, gaining Karsus' favor didn't do much in guaranteeing survivability, especially when one considered the fact that in those days, Karsus was described as, in a word, mad.
msatran 02-03-07, 03:02 AM	Whoops. This post should be the post below.
msatran 02-03-07, 03:06 AM	Well, I for one hope that at the end of this adventure the Shadow Weave is completely destroyed, that logic and sanity return to the Realms, and that someone like, oh, I don't know, a 25th level cleric of Lathander activates his necklace of prayer beads, uses his augment healing feat, with Soul of Light and Healers touch up and casts Mass Heal on GEV. I believe that's 318 points of positive energy damage? Oh, and then use a swift close wounds spell to end his miserable existence. Then, while he's moving at 20, the Cleric casts Celestial Brilliance on himself. Three rounds later, game over.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 04:49 AM	-You didn't just say that I/We am/are a clone...You didn't just say that...:waits: -Never encountered that one. Where does that one roam? Not here, since I/We've never seen it here... Well all clones think they are the original! So much so that they have to destroy any other clones. So you tell me? Feeling compelled?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 04:54 AM	Tsk tsk, this is what happens when the Karsii visit a thread... :) Anyway, as for the original topic... The rest of us will have to see how the modules try to suspend our disbelief, in the context of the adventures anyway. While it is a little farfetched, lore-wise, for an occurence such as the invasion of Shadowdale and the fall of Elminster's tower to happen, it does present a lot of interesting possibilities. While I love the old coot as much as the other players interested in lore, I'd always wondered what it would be like to raise a resistance movement in such a locale. Maybe I should mention it to my DM sometime... And as for those who say that adventures centered on low-to-mid level characters shouldn't have such a Realms-Shattering feel to it, need I remind them of the Avatar Crisis, and the relative character levels of the Ascended Three? What you say is true about the Avatar crisis. Makes you wonder why WIZARDS didn’t just decide to release a 3.5 edition of those 3 adventures. I mean I have been thinking about converting them for years. It would be a lot of work. I’m thinking a little retro realms action might be fun. I mean if they want to print realms shatter stuff nothing is better then those 3. Don’t you think?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 05:02 AM	What of poor little Lhaeo (or whatever his name is)? Doesn't HE get any love? I can just see ol' El coming home and looking at the smoking ruins and saying - "I lose more Lhaeos that way" Maybe El has gotten tired of people knocking on his door every five minutes to kill/learn-from/have-sex-with him? So he moved his place to a pocket dimension, that just so happens to be named 'Ruin'. Hence the thread title. ;) Personally I would think it was funny as hell if the old geezers feet were sticking out from under the rubble, and then his toes curl up and go inside. :D It does seem that the designers/authors are having some sort of contest lately to see who can f__k up the Realms more. So Karsus never... Ummm... 'did it'? Does that mean he's... like... ya know...? :eek: He just to let you know. Lhaeo hasn’t lived in the tower for years. He is the King of Tethyr now. His real name was Haedrak the Third rightful heir to the thrown. He is married to Queen Monarch Zaranda Star. I think Elminster replaced him with an illusion covered golem or some crap like that. However I think your right there must be some sort of office bet on who can F-up the realms more going on.
MarkusTay63 02-03-07, 09:21 AM	He just to let you know. Lhaeo hasn’t lived in the tower for years. He is the King of Tethyr now. His real name was Haedrak the Third rightful heir to the thrown. He is married to Queen Monarch Zaranda Star. I think Elminster replaced him with an illusion covered golem or some crap like that. However I think your right there must be some sort of office bet on who can F-up the realms more going on.Your the second person to 'correct' me about Lhaeo. Didn't anyone get my joke - "I lose more Lhaeos that way" Obviously I know who and where the last Lhaeo was and went. Mind you, I said 'last' Lhaeo, because El has had a 'Lhaeo' for a many many years now, I believe. He gets a new one every couple years, and he's too lazy to bother remembering their names. I picture LK looking like Joe Pesche in Goodfellas - "I'm funny? Do I amuse you? Do I look like a clone to you?" :P
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 10:23 PM	Hey maybe they made like 15 copies of our buddy Karsus and stuck them in an Iron flask then when they got close to Elminster they uncorked the big surprise!?!? Ya think?:P
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 10:48 PM	Hey maybe they made like 15 copies of our buddy Karsus and stuck them in an Iron flask then when they got close to Elminster they uncorked the big surprise!?!? Ya think?:P -15 copies? Pheh, I/We wish there were only 15...:nonono: I picture LK looking like Joe Pesche in Goodfellas - "I'm funny? Do I amuse you? Do I look like a clone to you?" :P -Heh, so true. :cool: Well all clones think they are the original! So much so that they have to destroy any other clones. So you tell me? Feeling compelled? -Yes, but the clones all suffer from Clone Degeneration Syndrome, which means, if you don't know, that they wake up, but only make a few posts before turning back into genetic goo. None of my/our clones have ever stayed active for too long. I/We, on the other hand, have been here for too, too long... OT: And while this paladin doesn't want to be hit by a permanent geas anytime soon, it was hinted in the old Netheril supplements (as well as the How Mighty is the Fallen adventure) that Karsus had some...unique, tastes, and these extended to his chosen 'friends'. Interestingly enough, gaining Karsus' favor didn't do much in guaranteeing survivability, especially when one considered the fact that in those days, Karsus was described as, in a word, mad. -Nah, I/We won't geas you, don't worry. I/We do have...unique tastes, though. KtM still has that Imaskari..."Toy", if you get my drift...;) So Karsus never... Ummm... 'did it'? Does that mean he's... like... ya know...? :eek: -Ever seen that movie the 40-Year-Old Virgin? Funny movie. Anyway, no I/We've got plenty of action. Can't tell you how many power hungry women I/We've slept with, who wanted to bed us in order to secure a nice position for themselves. Fun times...You know, I?We ought to go ask El some of his secrets, cause I/We've been out of the market for too long. Ladies, LK is back on the market! ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:31 PM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;11378781]-15 copies? Pheh, I/We wish there were only 15...:nonono: -Heh, so true. :cool: -Yes, but the clones all suffer from Clone Degeneration Syndrome, which means, if you don't know, that they wake up, but only make a few posts before turning back into genetic goo. None of my/our clones have ever stayed active for too long. I/We, on the other hand, have been here for too, too long... Didn’t you read that Green Reagent thing? Karsus has passed on with regret when he realized what he had done to his Nation. In the end even he realized he didn’t live up to his own hype. P.S. I bet Elminster kept the head of Karsus's clone alive as a pet in his pocket dimensional study. Just so he would have someone to tease and teach him party tricks for cocktail parties, because we know that the Goddess destroyed all the copies of his spells.
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 11:35 PM	Didn’t you read that Green Reagent thing? Karsus has passed on with regret when he realized what he had done to his Nation. In the end even he realized he didn’t live up to his own hype. -None of that stuff is actually real. I do feel a little bad about destroying my entire civilization, though. P.S. I bet Elminster kept the head of Karsus's clone alive as a pet in his pocket dimensional study. Just so he would have someone to tease and teach him party tricks for cocktail parties, because we know that the Goddess destroyed all the copies of his spells. -It was already pretty dead when he got there. And, I'm sure it'd be rotting by now...:yuck:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:40 PM	-None of that stuff is actually real. I do feel a little bad about destroying my entire civilization, though. -It was already pretty dead when he got there. And, I'm sure it'd be rotting by now...:yuck: Maybe not real to you but it took place in the video games and novels and is now part of the official realms history. Karsus is permanently and truly dead. Except for the talking head in El’s study.
MarkusTay63 02-03-07, 11:40 PM	I'm not sure why, but that last statement got me thinking down a weird road. I was thinking about all the heads that are still alive in Futurama, and then I was thinking about Thing, from Adams family. What if you somehow seperated someone, by stuffing their various limbs and head in to different dimensional portal/boxes. You would be spread all over the multiverse! Your head could be keeping the Lady of Pain amused, while your hand was fetching stuff for El (ala Thing). I can just picture a buncha Demons in the Abyss staring at a human leg just hanging out not connected to anything. What a great way to keep someone prisoner for all eternity. Just hope no-one casts disjunction at any of the locales. :D EDIT: You guys were too fast for me, this should have appeared two posts ago!
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:50 PM	I'm not sure why, but that last statement got me thinking down a weird road. Iwas thinking about all the heads that are still alive in Futurama, and then I was thinking about Thing, from Adams family. What if you somehow seperated someone, by stuffing their various limbs and head in to different dimensional portal/boxes. You would be spread all over the multiverse! Your head could be keeping the Lady of Pain amused, while your hand was fetching stuff for El (ala Thing). I can just picture a buncha Demons in the Abyss staring at a human leg just hanging out not connected to anything. What a great way to keep someone prisoner for all eternity. Just hope no-one casts disjunction at any of the locales. :D EDIT: You guys were too fast for me, this should have appeared two posts ago! Well their might be Karsus clones running around, but the original one that got split up into 3 different parts was permanently destroyed and its documented on the Forgotten Realms website.:cool:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:57 PM	You got me thinking though! If you wanted to wack Elminster making a clone of him would be a great way to do it. I mean that sure put Manshoon on the run for a few years. If they didn’t kill him they would sure as hell put him on the run long enough for all these turds to invade Shadowdale and wreck his tower! I mean he left enough blood and guts lying around Hell for anyone to make a copy out of him. :rolleyes: Here is an interesting question: Any copy of Elminster would have all his knowledge and powers except his Chosen abilities? I mean only the original would have those abilities. You can’t clone the chosen aspect into the copies. So the original would have a significant tactical advantage against the clones, but one could get lucky. So here’s the question: How many Elminster clones does it take to kill the original?:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 11:57 PM	Well their might be Karsus clones running around, but the original one that got split up into 3 different parts was permanently destroyed and its documented on the Forgotten Realms website.:cool: Maybe not real to you but it took place in the video games and novels and is now part of the official realms history. Karsus is permanently and truly dead. Except for the talking head in El’s study. -The events of the Green Regent campaign are not canon, nor are the events of Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide. -Let me break it down for you, as it is sometimes hard for the non-divine to understand. As everyone knows, I/We were sundered into three aspects upon Mystryl ending her existence. The sentience from "super rock", as some people call it, and the sentience contained within my "divine ghost" have manifested on these boards, as me, and KtM. My/Our final third fragment has yet to appear, but I/We know it'll appear sooner or later.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 12:03 AM	-The events of the Green Regent campaign are not canon, nor are the events of Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide. -Let me break it down for you, as it is sometimes hard for the non-divine to understand. As everyone knows, I/We were sundered into three aspects upon Mystryl ending her existence. The sentience from "super rock", as some people call it, and the sentience contained within my "divine ghost" have manifested on these boards, as me, and KtM. My/Our final third fragment has yet to appear, but I/We know it'll appear sooner or later. How says they are not canon? Ok let’s say for the monment that the Green Regent stuff is crap. You are destroyed in the Novel as well they used the Karsus Stone (IE your heart) to bring back Shade. It was a spell component, used up gone forever!;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 10:29 AM	So? How many Elminster clones does it take to kill the original?
MarkusTay63 02-04-07, 01:38 PM	Reminds me of the old joke - "How many Elminsters does it take too screw in a lightbulb?" "None, Elminsters don't screw in lightbulbs, they screw in Hottubs." ;) How says they are not canon? Ok let’s say for the monment that the Green Regent stuff is crap. You are destroyed in the Novel as well they used the Karsus Stone (IE your heart) to bring back Shade. It was a spell component, used up gone forever!;)Maybe it was really a lump of something else, planted by the REAL Lord Karsus (See Space Hamster thread). :P BTW - Where is the Green Regent 'crap' from, anyway? :confused:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 02:04 PM	BTW - Where is the Green Regent 'crap' from, anyway? :confused:[/QUOTE] The Forgotten Realms website.
Lord Karsus 02-04-07, 04:05 PM	-Show me where the Karse Stone was destroyed, and you'll get $1,000,000. I/We're making this generous offer because I/We know you won't- mainly because it wasn't destroyed. Last time we say my heart, it was in the hands of Shar. What can I/We say, though? I/We've always liked those Gothic girls...
MarkusTay63 02-04-07, 05:06 PM	You're heart belongs to Shar? You ARE evil! :eek: ;) :rofl:
Lord Karsus 02-04-07, 06:15 PM	You're heart belongs to Shar? You ARE evil! :eek: ;) :rofl: -Eh, technically. She did steal it, after all. :cool:
Stigger 02-04-07, 06:33 PM	Given the illustrations of her... I don't think I'd mind being stolen either...
DreamStalker 02-04-07, 06:38 PM	Also, the Sharrans and the Zhents might not have anything to do with the Tower in ruins. Perhaps once the Tower went all a-crumble they took advantage and moved in. There was this pesky year long Dragon Rage. Last time a Dragon Flight went at Shadowdale a Chosen died in defense. If Elminster is off elsewhere it is quite possible a Great Wyrm or even something less may have lain waste to the tower. Personally I enjoy the Shadow Weave stuff, but think it should always be presented as a) A FRIGGIN' SECRET b) subtle and corruptive c) fragile in surprising ways. In my Realms the Guardians of the Weave are fighting a secret war. They do not want the knowledge to spread far and end up converting scores of people who could benefit from the inherent differences. People such as Necromancers and Cyricists. In my opinion it is a no brainer that the strongholds of the Chosen are easily SW Dead Magic Zones. SW villians who want to see the Chosen dead should largely be setting ambushes and twisted traps, not attacking bastions of the Weave on Chosen turf. Personally, I believe the reason there have been all of these Toril-shaking events of late is to keep sales up. The Realms has existed for 40 years now and the campaign has to bring in a steady enough number of new sales to be worth the bother of Hasbro. My estimation is that campaign settings are a thing of the past in terms of heavy support. We still have two that are ongoing, but I believe they are the last. *sniff sniff* This place smells like a Karsii nest. **heads off in search of repellant**
Lord Karsus 02-04-07, 06:42 PM	*sniff sniff* This place smells like a Karsii nest. **heads off in search of repellant** -I'm the only one that's here. KtM has elected to take the high ground, and not even bother. That repelent doesn't work, anyway. Might as well return it and save your money. ;)
DreamStalker 02-04-07, 07:21 PM	Drats. Ripped off again. I should know better than to buy potions and alchemies from gnomes.
Lord Karsus 02-04-07, 08:37 PM	Drats. Ripped off again. I should know better than to buy potions and alchemies from gnomes. -Yeah...The biggest indicator should have been that, if you peel off the label, the bottle actually says 'Poland Springs'. :P
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 01:02 AM	-Show me where the Karse Stone was destroyed, and you'll get $1,000,000. I/We're making this generous offer because I/We know you won't- mainly because it wasn't destroyed. Last time we say my heart, it was in the hands of Shar. What can I/We say, though? I/We've always liked those Gothic girls... Malik was a mad man prone to Hallucinate. Who knows what that turd saw! Seraph of Lies indeed! Karsus is dead. If not I’m sure he will be soon in some upcoming novel.:P I’m sure his son can give him his just Deserts in due time!
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 01:11 AM	If not I’m sure he will be soon in some upcoming novel. -Hopefully not, though, sadly, I could foresee this happening, especially with Shar's Shadow War looming on the horizon.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 01:28 AM	-Hopefully not, though, sadly, I could foresee this happening, especially with Shar's Shadow War looming on the horizon. Yeah, that’s defiantly coming. Why are some many Realms fans anti-Shadow Weave? I mean the explanation is a bit wacky? However one thing didn’t make sense the way it used to be set up. I mean Mystra is a Neutral Good Goddess now. Yet evil people can use her weave to do evil things? It would make more sense if she was just Neutral and the fair Weave provider. Equal usage to all. If they wanted an evil weave why make is a Shadow weave?:confused:
Stigger 02-05-07, 01:54 AM	Mystra is the light of magic... must cast a shadow... blahblahblah. Still think the whole thing is an idiotic idea myself.
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 02:06 AM	Why are some many Realms fans anti-Shadow Weave? -Because most of us are rather hesitant to embrace the additions that WotC felt it could add into the Realms without so much as a good explanation as to why. That, and the fact that the Return of the Archwizards trilogy was, at best, poorly researched.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 02:43 AM	-Because most of us are rather hesitant to embrace the additions that WotC felt it could add into the Realms without so much as a good explanation as to why. That, and the fact that the Return of the Archwizards trilogy was, at best, poorly researched. Yeah! I can remember the name of the Wizard from Shade, but they killed him in the Novel, but then you look at Lords Of Darkness and they have him alive. Not only that. Then the character description of him in Lords of Darkness doesn’t match the personality displayed in the Novel.
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 03:14 AM	Yeah! I can remember the name of the Wizard from Shade, but they killed him in the Novel, but then you look at Lords Of Darkness and they have him alive. Not only that. Then the character description of him in Lords of Darkness doesn’t match the personality displayed in the Novel. -That's because Lord of Darkness was written before the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy. Or was it vice-versa? Either way, you get my point.
Fabius Maximus 02-05-07, 05:27 PM	Given the illustrations of her... I don't think I'd mind being stolen either... Be careful what you wish for... Those illustrations are all divine propaganda. I bet Lolth's real form is the one of a bloated black widow spider. The hot elven chick avatar is only to cloud the minds of all the males.
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 05:29 PM	I bet Lolth's real form is the one of a bloated black widow spider. -When Corellon Larethian first pronounced Lolth Tanar'ri, took her divinity, and banished her to the Abyss, she was transformed into a fat, bloated spider.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 10:01 PM	[QUOTE=Fabius Maximus;11397226]I bet Lolth's real form is the one of a bloated black widow spider. QUOTE] -When Corellon Larethian first pronounced Lolth Tanar'ri, took her divinity, and banished her to the Abyss, she was transformed into a fat, bloated spider. Yeah she used to be a hotty. Not so much any more!
Karsus the Mad 02-05-07, 10:48 PM	-Hopefully not, though, sadly, I could foresee this happening, especially with Shar's Shadow War looming on the horizon. Or worse, Karsus is brought back as a champion of the Shadow Weave.:banghead: Eh. At least he'd pimp slap Telemont back to being an apprentice.
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 11:25 PM	Or worse, Karsus is brought back as a champion of the Shadow Weave.:banghead: Eh. At least he'd pimp slap Telemont back to being an apprentice. -I don't like point A. I do like point B. Is point B really worth having our name sullied, though? -My thinking is, if we get resored as a divinity somehow, things can't be that bad, can they? I'd rather stay pseudo-dead, pseudo-divine, like we are right now, though...
Karsus the Mad 02-05-07, 11:33 PM	-I don't like point A. I do like point B. Is point B really worth having our name sullied, though? -My thinking is, if we get resored as a divinity somehow, things can't be that bad, can they? I'd rather stay pseudo-dead, pseudo-divine, like we are right now, though... I could settle with divine restoration. Even just keeping our portfolio öf "Folly of overweening arrogance and ambition, unending hubris" would guarantee greater godhood:D Seriously, if Bane can be a greater god with hatred, fear, and tyranny, think what arrogance, ambition, and hubris would bring! Jackpot! Heh...maybe that was the real goal afterall. But yes, I'm rather comfy as we are:cloud9:
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 11:53 PM	-Yeah...With great power comes great responsibility...but who wants responsibility!? -We wouldn't be able to stay out up to all hours of the night anymore...:pint: -We'd always be watched by that voyeur, Ao...:incog: -We'd actually have to listen to Denier prattle on and on and on...:zzz: -And, most importantly, we'd have to sell our vacation house in Sigil...:lop:
Zevox 02-06-07, 12:19 AM	However one thing didn’t make sense the way it used to be set up. I mean Mystra is a Neutral Good Goddess now. Yet evil people can use her weave to do evil things? It would make more sense if she was just Neutral and the fair Weave provider. Equal usage to all. Mystra used to deny evil beings access to the Weave. Then she got slapped with a trial by the rest of the Greater Gods, and simultaneously got told she couldn't do that if she wanted to stay a divinity and realized it was a bad idea to begin with. Now she permits everyone access to it equally because of that - aka, a fair, equal usage policy. She need not be True Neutral to be doing that, she just can't let her personal preferences get in the way of her job. Zevox
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 03:37 AM	Mystra used to deny evil beings access to the Weave. Then she got slapped with a trial by the rest of the Greater Gods, and simultaneously got told she couldn't do that if she wanted to stay a divinity and realized it was a bad idea to begin with. Now she permits everyone access to it equally because of that - aka, a fair, equal usage policy. She need not be True Neutral to be doing that, she just can't let her personal preferences get in the way of her job. Zevox Yeah, but shouldn’t Gods personify their portfolios? At least in most ways. It seem as if she is ill suited or her role as Goddess of Magic. As evident by the trial. I’m mean Kelemvor defiantly jumped on the dead/death band wagon in a big way. However I wonder if our Goddess of magic is just placating the other Gods so she can run around in do ‘goody two shoes’ things.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 03:43 AM	I could settle with divine restoration. Even just keeping our portfolio öf "Folly of overweening arrogance and ambition, unending hubris" would guarantee greater godhood:D Seriously, if Bane can be a greater god with hatred, fear, and tyranny, think what arrogance, ambition, and hubris would bring! Jackpot! Heh...maybe that was the real goal afterall. But yes, I'm rather comfy as we are:cloud9: You know you could end up like Savras and Velsharoon in the service of both Azuth and Mystra! Ewww what’s left God of Cantrips?:P
BrianCritchley 02-06-07, 03:50 AM	Yeah, but shouldn’t Gods personify their portfolios? in a word.. not really. you need to keep in mind that ANYTHING can have a differnt spin, in some cultures, particularly desert cultures (see the Bedine for a FR example)sun gods where EVIL. thus clearly lathander is ill suited for his portfolio using that logic. Mystra grants everyone equal access yes and she stresses the good things that can be done with magic, thats not bad, hell thats intresting. what type of dogma is more intresting, one where the goddess says "magic is a great tool it can be used to improve people's lives, you should try and use magic when you can and the ideal way toi use it is to help people etc. how you use it is up to you but here's my reccomendations on the matter..." or a goddess who goes "meh whatever use magic how you want it, I don't care so long as your using it" now then think what deity is more INTRESTING? what one is more likely to get involved and shake things up on occasion? thing is Mystra lets anyone use magic but she perfers and says as such to see magic being used in a responsiable manner to the benifit of the many, thing is even the original LN Mystra perfered that because it was in her best intrest. all supporting evil mage tyrants does it make commoners hate magic. that and these evil grasping mages tend to keep their spells secrect and otherwise stifle research, groups that tend to enchourage magical development she supports no matter what their alignment (Thay being one example). fact is the custodian of the weave may be good aligned but the weave itself isn't. which is why I dislike the shadow weave, it's created a lot of misconceptions about magic leading to foolish belives of a light side/dark side approuch to magic
Stigger 02-06-07, 04:21 AM	fact is the custodian of the weave may be good aligned but the weave itself isn't. which is why I dislike the shadow weave, it's created a lot of misconceptions about magic leading to foolish belives of a light side/dark side approuch to magic So very true...
Zevox 02-06-07, 10:44 AM	Yeah, but shouldn’t Gods personify their portfolios? At least in most ways. It seem as if she is ill suited or her role as Goddess of Magic. As evident by the trial. As BrianCatchley said, not really, no. Especially with such impartial portfolios as magic, where no specific alignment is associated with it. For instance, Shar is the Goddess of the secrets, but secrets are not an evil thing; should we then call for her to give it up to a more neutral deity? Deneir is God of literature and glyphs, but those are not inherently goodly things; should he give it up to a neutral God? Not at all - both do just fine with those portfolios, and in any event the portfolios are no more inherently neutral than they are inherently good or evil. So too with Mystra. As for the trial, that is evidence that she once was acting in a manner not befitting a Goddess of Magic. The fact that she was acquitted and has never been called for another one is evidence that it did its job and she is now acting in a manner befitting a Goddess of Magic. However I wonder if our Goddess of magic is just placating the other Gods so she can run around in do ‘goody two shoes’ things. Simply put: no. No only can she not do any such thing without winding up in another (much less forgiving) trial, she realized before the last one was over that she had been foolish to do that, and genuinely changed her ways. She may not like it, but she knows what she has to do and why she has to do it, and being goodly she is not going to risk upsetting the balance just to satisfy her own desires now that she understands this. Zevox
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 05:43 PM	As BrianCatchley said, not really, no. Especially with such impartial portfolios as magic, where no specific alignment is associated with it. For instance, Shar is the Goddess of the secrets, but secrets are not an evil thing; should we then call for her to give it up to a more neutral deity? Deneir is God of literature and glyphs, but those are not inherently goodly things; should he give it up to a neutral God? Not at all - both do just fine with those portfolios, and in any event the portfolios are no more inherently neutral than they are inherently good or evil. So too with Mystra. As for the trial, that is evidence that she once was acting in a manner not befitting a Goddess of Magic. The fact that she was acquitted and has never been called for another one is evidence that it did its job and she is now acting in a manner befitting a Goddess of Magic. Simply put: no. No only can she not do any such thing without winding up in another (much less forgiving) trial, she realized before the last one was over that she had been foolish to do that, and genuinely changed her ways. She may not like it, but she knows what she has to do and why she has to do it, and being goodly she is not going to risk upsetting the balance just to satisfy her own desires now that she understands this. Zevox Still don’t trust her. If you remember she never would have been brought up on charges to begin with if it hadn’t been for Cyric’s meddling. The other Gods aren’t very good at seeing what the others are up to.
GothicDan 02-07-07, 07:34 PM	Why would you not trust someone who was specifically promoting good magical deeds? If I was an evil Wizard, I'd love to have an in with the Good Clerics of Mystra...
MarkusTay63 02-07-07, 08:38 PM	As much as I hate to agree with LLKN, the existance of her chosen, and who they are and what they do, plants her firmly on the side of 'good'. If she also had evil chosen, like lets say Gromph Baenre, then I would say she is doing her job properly. There have been evil Magisters in the past, but I can guarantee you with Midnight in charge we won't see another one of those. She's a failure, and Ao should call her into his office and give her her walking papers. Do Gods collect unemployment? :confused: I can just see it now - Ao: "Come in... come in... please, sit down. I have something I need to discuss with you Mystra... things just aren't working out. I'm gonna have to let you go. Tell ya what... I have a few portfolios lying over there, why don't you go through them and see if there's any you like. I have one called 'spells' that no ones grabbed, that might be right up your alley..." Bring back Mystrl! She was cool, and the first thing she would do is get rid of all these Karsii we have lying about... the place is a mess! ;)
Lord Karsus 02-07-07, 08:53 PM	If she also had evil chosen, like lets say Gromph Baenre... -In the past, she has had evil Chosen. They didn't start out that way, but they did turn out evil. Sammaster is a fine example. Do Gods collect unemployment? :confused: -No, no we don't...:waits: Bring back Mystrl! She was cool, and the first thing she would do is get rid of all these Karsii we have lying about... the place is a mess! ;) -Nice...Real nice, you know? Technically, though, Mystra is Mystryl, since Mystryl did reincarnate herself as Mystra.
Zevox 02-07-07, 08:56 PM	As much as I hate to agree with LLKN, the existance of her chosen, and who they are and what they do, plants her firmly on the side of 'good'. If she also had evil chosen, like lets say Gromph Baenre, then I would say she is doing her job properly. Erm, Midnight has yet to annoint any Chosen. Each and every one we know of was given the post by her predecessor, who was LN. And in any event, it makes more sense for her to want good or neutral Chosen, since evil wizards will generally try to hoard the power for themselves, not spread it like Mystra in any incarnation wants. Plus theres the whole issue of megalomaniac evil wizards looking for more power being the ones that are generally a threat to the Weave to begin with... There have been evil Magisters in the past, but I can guarantee you with Midnight in charge we won't see another one of those. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Azuth deal with the Magister nowadays? I thought Mystra had passed that one off to being nearly entirely his purview. Zevox
Lord Karsus 02-07-07, 09:08 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Azuth deal with the Magister nowadays? I thought Mystra had passed that one off to being nearly entirely his purview. -Nah, Mystra appoints the Magister. At least, that's what Secrets of the Magister says. I don't think anything has changed.
Krash 02-07-07, 09:22 PM	Noumea was made into a Chosen after the ToT. -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 02-07-07, 09:47 PM	Bring back Mystrl! She was cool, and the first thing she would do is get rid of all these Karsii we have lying about... the place is a mess! Oddly, I would think Mystryl would be the most tolerant of Karsus. She was goddess of magic during the time, and no booting of the Karsi butt:P Btw, Spells is possessed by Mystra already.
MarkusTay63 02-07-07, 10:09 PM	Oddly, I would think Mystryl would be the most tolerant of Karsus. She was goddess of magic during the time, and no booting of the Karsi buttYeah, but that was before he KILLED her and stole her magic... I think she might be just a little 'miffed' now.:P Btw, Spells is possessed by Mystra already.Maybe so, but if he fires her, then no one would, see? ;) Then he could give good old Mystra (Mystrl) the weave and magic and thats it. No human interaction at all, I think she has enough on her hands patching holes and fighting with Shar to be bothered with 'human affairs'. Then the goddess Midnight could take over the chosen and be as good as she wants, and everyone is happy. I decided I want to be like everyone else, so I'm going to go in for a Karsii upgrade. But I want to be original still, so maybe I'll use part of my old name... Lets see... Markus... Karsus... I GOT IT! You guys just call me Karkus from now on. :D
Lord Karsus 02-07-07, 10:55 PM	I decided I want to be like everyone else, so I'm going to go in for a Karsii upgrade. But I want to be original still, so maybe I'll use part of my old name... Lets see... Markus... Karsus... I GOT IT! You guys just call me Karkus from now on. :D -Keep it up, and you may, one day, get you wish- you might become a karkus...:incog:
BrianCritchley 02-08-07, 12:03 AM	as others have noted there's little evidance of MYstra perffering a good aliognment over evil that wasn't in effect under the old Mystra. the fact is Mystra wants good hearted people who will cast spells to entertain children and teach others magic. not some evil person who'll keep all the magic too himself. this applies to both magisters and chosen. the only change made to the magister since midnight took it is the magister is the mage most responsable for spreading magic to others not just whatever loony wizard lkilled the last one
Karsus the Mad 02-08-07, 12:05 AM	eah, but that was before he KILLED her and stole her magic... I think she might be just a little 'miffed' now. eh, eh, eh. Mystryl killed herself. I decided I want to be like everyone else, so I'm going to go in for a Karsii upgrade. But I want to be original still, so maybe I'll use part of my old name... You can be the Long Island Regional Priest for our cult. Starting pay is one cookie.:cookie: and the right to have a front row seat at our ascension:ghosted: Lets see... Markus... Karsus... I GOT IT! You guys just call me Karkus from now on. Hmmmm...pronunciation play:P Is that the same as Carcus, one of the seven eunuchs who served in the court of King Ahasuerus? Or is it carcass?:confused: Either way, you might not want to go with that;)
Lord Karsus 02-08-07, 12:51 PM	You can be the Long Island Regional Priest for our cult. Starting pay is one cookie.:cookie: and the right to have a front row seat at our ascension:ghosted: -Ah, very good. We need a fellow to convert all those nice Long Islanders. My girlfriend lives in Nassau, so I'm there frequently. In other words, I'll be keeping a close eye on you...;) Is that the same as Carcus, one of the seven eunuchs who served in the court of King Ahasuerus? -We could always use more eunichs...
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 02:23 PM	as others have noted there's little evidance of MYstra perffering a good aliognment over evil that wasn't in effect under the old Mystra. the fact is Mystra wants good hearted people who will cast spells to entertain children and teach others magic. not some evil person who'll keep all the magic too himself. this applies to both magisters and chosen.Not so, heres a scenario - A gang of street-toughs, young teens, are hanging out on a corner looking to pick a fight with someone. Along comes a gnome illusionist, whom the kids step out in front of. Being the kindly sort, he pulls coins out of their ears, makes a little ball disappear and reappear, and finally asks them to "pick-a-card, any card". They knock him to the ground laughing, and he gets up and shakes his boney little fist at the boys "Carnflabnasted ruffians!", and then continues on his way because he won't stoop to using real magic on them because he is a very GOOD person. A few minutes later they see another mark, some scrawney guy in a red robe. As he nears them, three cutthroats jump out of a side alley and attempt to mug/assassinate the man. With a simple wave of his hand he OBLITERATES all three assailants, and then continues on his way. As he walks by, the gang of awestruck urchins hoot and cheer him. He turns back and smiles evilly at them. One brave boy steps forward and asks "Gee mister, that was awesome, could you teach US how to do that?". His grin widens, and he responds "I suppose that could be arranged. Do you have a sister? Good... we'll need a scrifice..." And so, a group of young misfit children learn the wonders of magic thanks to their EVIL benefactor. Of course he has his own reasons for doing so, and long-range plans, but so what? He is spreading the use of magic for whatever reason. Bad people are more likely to learn from an evil character then from a good one. Is that the same as Carcus, one of the seven eunuchs who served in the court of King Ahasuerus? Or is it carcass?:confused: Either way, you might not want to go with that;)I prefer 'carcass', as in "large bloated unmoving useless lump of flesh that smells." - because thats ME in a nutshell. :D
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 02:25 PM	-Ah, very good. We need a fellow to convert all those nice Long Islanders. My girlfriend lives in Nassau, so I'm there frequently. In other words, I'll be keeping a close eye on you...Ummm... whats she look like? Got any pics... ya know... so I'll be able to recognize you guys? ;)
GothicDan 02-08-07, 02:54 PM	People are getting way too tied up with alignment, here. If I was an evil or neutral deity, I'd have as many good contacts as possible - just because they'd be far more likely to help you (if you can hide your intentions, or manipulate them).
Stigger 02-08-07, 03:46 PM	Goodly types are also less likely to try to find a way to usurp your power... which evil types oddly enough are kinda known for... hmmm... wonder which one the sane sort would pick? :P
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 04:35 PM	In a world where morality has definate ramifications on where you will end up after your dead, I would say you'd have to be pretty insane to be evil to begin with. "I'd like to go to Hell, I prefer a warm climate" Yeah.... right. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 02-08-07, 04:40 PM	Many people believe that applies to our world, too. And good people still work for evil ones.
Lord Karsus 02-08-07, 05:56 PM	And good people still work for evil ones. -Faceless, greedy Corporate America, we're looking at you...
Lord Karsus 02-08-07, 05:59 PM	Ummm... whats she look like? Got any pics... ya know... so I'll be able to recognize you guys? ;) -She does, I don't. She's into photography, and has like three or four different digital cameras, all for various different purposes. The closest thing I have to a camera is the sorry excuse that is built into my cellphone. -You'll know me soon enough though. Once I put those plans of mine into motion, I'll be on the front page of every newspaper, billboard, and various other mediums...:plotting:
Stigger 02-08-07, 06:53 PM	Didn't know they published the FBI's Most Wanted List in papers anymore... :P
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 08:22 PM	Didn't know they published the FBI's Most Wanted List in papers anymore... :PThats why I only wanted a picture of his girlfriend, I already know what he looks like from the wall in the Post Office. :D I don't think you'll be able to see me from Nassau anyway, LK, I'm ALL the way out on exit 66 of the LIE. :cool:
Karsus the Mad 02-08-07, 08:32 PM	-Faceless, greedy Corporate America, we're looking at you... It's just not there...it's here also...yessssssssssss my precious..... Oddly, it's everywhere I've ever lived, which is 6 continents. It's annoying really. I still have to file taxes every year:P Which, mine are expected to be in at the IRS April 1st...London's mail service......ehhhhhhh........it'll take 9 months to send a letter that'll never reach it's destination...despite paying nearly 50 euro for it...I'm screwed....
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 08:35 PM	Ahhhh... the infamous Royal Mail, I've had run-ins with them before. :P Good luck with that, you're gonna need it. :rolleyes:
BrianCritchley 02-08-07, 08:52 PM	And so, a group of young misfit children learn the wonders of magic thanks to their EVIL benefactor. Of course he has his own resons for doing so, and long-range plans, but so what? He is spreading the use of magic for whatever reason. Bad people are more likely to learn from an evil character then from a good one. except this isn't likely to happen ebcause most evil wizards tend not to be as willing to instruct. furthermore an evil wizard is more likely to kill them then teach em.
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 08:55 PM	furthermore an evil wizard is more likely to kill them then teach em.Chaotic evil, yes. But a lawful evil wizard would most likely try to use them in some way.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-08-07, 09:16 PM	Evil wizards spread the use of Magic just as well as good ones. Every time they destroy a town and there is a soul survivor! That survivor might spend the rest of his or her life learning the Art to hunt down the murdering mage. That’s was why the contest to be Magister used to be to the Death. So that only the Strongest could hold the office and if anyone that wanted to be Magister had to improve their Art to get on top. Which is another example of how the Goddess is messing everything up, because now the contest isn’t fatal. Azuth has historically been the Tutor or confident of the Magister. He helped the good ones and punished the bad ones. Azuth also picked the most recent Magister, but the office is still supposed to be Mystra’s champion.
Lord Karsus 02-08-07, 11:59 PM	It's just not there...it's here also...yessssssssssss my precious..... -I know, I know. It's just a saying, though. I don't think you'll be able to see me from Nassau anyway, LK, I'm ALL the way out on exit 66 of the LIE. :cool: -Hm. That is, indeed, quite far. At that point, you might as well live in Boston, to enjoy lower taxes, and all. I wouldn't suffer that indignity, though... Didn't know they published the FBI's Most Wanted List in papers anymore... :P Thats why I only wanted a picture of his girlfriend, I already know what he looks like from the wall in the Post Office. :D :rimshot:
BrianCritchley 02-09-07, 12:29 AM	Evil wizards spread the use of Magic just as well as good ones. Every time they destroy a town and there is a soul survivor! That survivor might spend the rest of his or her life learning the Art to hunt down the murdering mage. That’s was why the contest to be Magister used to be to the Death. So that only the Strongest could hold the office and if anyone that wanted to be Magister had to improve their Art to get on top. Which is another example of how the Goddess is messing everything up, because now the contest isn’t fatal. Azuth has historically been the Tutor or confident of the Magister. He helped the good ones and punished the bad ones. Azuth also picked the most recent Magister, but the office is still supposed to be Mystra’s champion. yeah except Mystra would rather the magister be about it's actual role. spreading magic throughout the damned continent and stuff, not just some "me most pooowerf" contest
Stigger 02-09-07, 01:32 AM	Think it's supposed to be 'learning to cast a fireball is easy, learning when not to is the hard part.' sort of thing with Mystra. That could be why she set Dove to start teaching a new little wizardling for every bad, evil one she wrote into the deadbook...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-14-07, 05:47 PM	A think most people can agree that the current status of Magic in the Realms doesn’t make a lot of sense with the introduction of the Shadow weave and the goody goody behavior of Mystra. Right?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-14-07, 05:53 PM	yeah except Mystra would rather the magister be about it's actual role. spreading magic throughout the damned continent and stuff, not just some "me most pooowerf" contest Some of the Evil Magisters spread more magic then the good ones did. Explain that? The office of Magister is best served if it is held by the most capable Mage on the planet. Death duels are the surest way to encourage magical growth. Human beings only become stronger through adversity. The knowledge and understanding of the weave cannot grow without adversity. Without adversity the practice of the Art becomes stagnate. There is no reason to research an epic level spell unless you have something epic to overcome!!! Get it?
dragonheart 02-14-07, 06:49 PM	Welcome to the easy side of "its easier to destroy than to build" Some of the evil magisters did indeed live longer than many of the good ones but they really didn't spread magic very well - they were too busy concentrating it in their hands. the best of them did spread it eventually - by being killed and having their posessions scattered by some of the good ones before the next idiot evil one killed them. You don't have to be agasint something to find reasons to build a big powerful spell (or for that matter a bunch of small specialized ones) there are enough dangers out there that strong defenses are worthwhile and that dreams of equality for all and shared good can be a basis for great magic at all levels.
Zevox 02-14-07, 07:09 PM	Death duels are the surest way to encourage magical growth. :rofl: I'm sorry, thats just one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Death duels, by their very nature, discourage such growth, as you're always going to lose one participant through them. How much more could magic have grown throughout the ages if all those who died competing for that office hadn't have been killed so wastefully? Or if each of those Magisters had been able to focus on spreading magic rather than watching their backs for upstart challengers? This method doesn't work for the Drow, it sure as hell won't work for magic. Its self-destructive. "Death duels are the surest way to encourage magical growth", thats rich. Zevox
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-14-07, 07:11 PM	Welcome to the easy side of "its easier to destroy than to build" Some of the evil magisters did indeed live longer than many of the good ones but they really didn't spread magic very well - they were too busy concentrating it in their hands. the best of them did spread it eventually - by being killed and having their posessions scattered by some of the good ones before the next idiot evil one killed them. You don't have to be agasint something to find reasons to build a big powerful spell (or for that matter a bunch of small specialized ones) there are enough dangers out there that strong defenses are worthwhile and that dreams of equality for all and shared good can be a basis for great magic at all levels. I disagree. Look out our own history. The greatest technological advances were brought about by war and conflict. Computers, nuclear power, radar, and flying technologies were all advanced or created by conflict situations. All the trouble in the Middle East is finally causing our Nations leaders to look at alternative energy sources. Conflict and advancement are cause and effect. The Art can only grow when used to reolve conflicts or protect from conflict. Look at the Mythal possibly one of the greatest advancements in the Art known to the realms. Why was it created? To protect a city. Protect from what? Forces hostile to the Elvin nations! Without this conflict would anyone have thought to create a Mythal. Why did the Netherese create their flying cities? :confused: To protect their citizens from barbarian and humanoid raids. So without evil and conflict the greatest magical civilization in the Realms would never have existed. Seven towns would still be boring farm land. Mystra good slanting and the whole Shadow weave idea has to be revaluated.
Stigger 02-14-07, 09:33 PM	All that advancement also bankrupted nations and sent civilian populations into poverty and horror... conflict isn't all that it's cracked up to be.
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 11:46 PM	Look at the Mythal possibly one of the greatest advancements in the Art known to the realms. Why was it created? To protect a city. -Not true. Firstly, we don't know where the first Mythal that appeared on Faerûn was laid. Secondly, Mythals don't only defend cities, such as Evereska's Mythal, which shoots Meteor Swarms at enemies. Mythals can be composed only of supplementary spells, such as Featherfall, or Fly- you know, things that serve no purpose other than to aid the populace. All that advancement also bankrupted nations and sent civilian populations into poverty and horror... conflict isn't all that it's cracked up to be. -At the same time, though, those advancements have saved countless others from poverty, starvation, and such. It's a very utiliarian argument- Does the good outweigh the bad? A difficult rhetorical question.
Donraj 02-15-07, 02:31 AM	On that note, as to the anticipated issue of the Shadow Weave's possible use in destroying or bypassing the defenses of Elminster's tower; I would love to extend the arguement to any DM or designer who has A) read The Summoning and Elminster in Hell B) read Champions of Valor C) looked up Elminster's INT score to explain why Elminster's Tower, or other important locales to Mystra and her servants in Shadowdale itself, are not already be within dead shadow weave magic zones. Elminster, along with the rest of the Chosen, has every reason to ward his dwelling against Shar's false weave, given that both his entrapment in Avernus and his return Toril were accompanied by cowardly ambushes from multiple shadow adepts. Elminster likewise has every reason to have access to the rend shadow weaveCoV spell, primarily since he is a Chosen of Mystra, and because the Guardians of the Weave, who created the spell, have a guild residence in Shadowdale itself (along with safehouses in every other city where a Chosen resides). Three moonstones, three minutes, and three third level spell slots are all that is needed for Elminster to render his three-story tower impervious to Shadow Weave magic. So hopefully the shadow weave wont be an "easy button" in explaining why a certain Shadowdale structure in the shape of a windmill silo has suddenly been reduced to rubble, despite the wardings and defenses it should be expected to carry. I know this is two weeks old, but I'd like to say, my theory is he decided he was best served by not doing so. From what I've read Red Wizards and other assorted evil people try to kill him there roughly every fifteen minutes and then proceed to die in under five seconds. Taking away a good fraction of them's ability to cast there would only encourage them to get smarter and not march in to be knocked off in a convenient and expedient manner.
Karsus the Mad 02-15-07, 03:40 AM	-Not true. Firstly, we don't know where the first Mythal that appeared on Faerûn was laid. Secondly, Mythals don't only defend cities, such as Evereska's Mythal, which shoots Meteor Swarms at enemies. Mythals can be composed only of supplementary spells, such as Featherfall, or Fly- you know, things that serve no purpose other than to aid the populace. That, however, does not dismiss their primary purpose as false: that of defense. While utilitarian spells can be attached, the reasoning for their weaving is to usually defend an area (or in the case of the Rage, as an offensive weapon). Then there's the mythal that prevents Waterdeep from collapsing into Undermountain. Utilitarian spells are often useful for protection as well. -At the same time, though, those advancements have saved countless others from poverty, starvation, and such. It's a very utiliarian argument- Does the good outweigh the bad? A difficult rhetorical question. In the short-term, the generation that suffers certainly wouldn't think so. Then again, the countless generations that do benefit in the long-term would prolly have a different opinion.
Stigger 02-15-07, 03:50 AM	Personally I'd say a lot of it wasn't worth it... certainly a lot of very good advances in technology and medicine came out of the two world wars... but to my mind, the cost of that advancement was too high, not just in terms of human lives, but economics and stability as well. Given the choice I'd rather see those advances come about through pure research for researches sake, rather than the necessity of more effective ways to fight, kill, and of course the counters to those new methods. I can and do understand that those advances are not generally looked for, much less financed until a 'need' for them arises, but that doesn't mean I have agree with the policy, much less like it.
Mortepierre 02-15-07, 04:40 AM	Is it not rather convenient that every time Shadow Dale gets in a crap load of trouble Elminster is off plane hopping somewhere? Did you stop to consider that being elsewhere might be his contingency plan? I mean, if my automated alarms were to tell me that some apocalyptic thing was at my doorstep, destroying everything in sight, I too would wait a while before going back! And then you show up, shake your fist at a cruel twist of fate and hire a group of, say, 4th-8th level adventurers to solve things up ;)
Stigger 02-15-07, 02:51 PM	You know... you've got a point there Mortepierre...
ShadezofDis 02-15-07, 03:17 PM	One thing that I consistantly see people failing to think of is this; Mystra, Kelemvor and Cyric haven't been gods for long at all, they're still getting used to godhood (doesn't happen overnight). All in all I think that once they stopped acting like mortals they started doing a pretty decent job. Now, I know there's been some talk about evil people spreading magic around well, there just isn't a case to be made there. The potential for an evil person to learn magic is a bit greater than that of a good person, based on drive and ambition and a willingness to do whatever it takes. The potential for that evil person to share that knowledge is SO MUCH LOWER than that of a good person that it's just silly. A LE mage will use you up to the best of their abilities within the framework of their "honor" (ie. the lawful aspect of their alignment) and. . . well, this often doesn't leave much left. A NE mage will probably use you up even quicker as they don't have any thoughts on "honor" unless it gets them something (ie. pretending to be honorable so people trust you). A CE mage . . . well, you just don't know when they're gonna snap. Bah, I'm out so I have to cut this short, hopefully I'll remember to come back to it ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-15-07, 03:48 PM	Personally I'd say a lot of it wasn't worth it... certainly a lot of very good advances in technology and medicine came out of the two world wars... but to my mind, the cost of that advancement was too high, not just in terms of human lives, but economics and stability as well. Given the choice I'd rather see those advances come about through pure research for researches sake, rather than the necessity of more effective ways to fight, kill, and of course the counters to those new methods. I can and do understand that those advances are not generally looked for, much less financed until a 'need' for them arises, but that doesn't mean I have agree with the policy, much less like it. I didn’t say it was a policy. Just seems to happen that way throughout history. One could argue that conflict is that natural state of man. As long as there is inequality and even when there is equality somebody gets greedy. The art will make its greatest leaps in an environment of conflict. If you lived in a peaceful utopia where nothing bad happened you wouldn’t have much need of offensive and defensive spells at all. Utilitarian spells would be less likely to be developed as well. No need to figure out how to make a quick protective shelter or mend a broken item if there is no time crunch put on the civilization by a conflict. I think Midnight needs to have a reality check and look at the true nature of mankind. In order to remain realistic the old Magister selection process is needed.
MarkusTay63 02-15-07, 04:10 PM	Evolution through Chaos? Trial by fire? Natural Selection? I would have to agree with this, the Drow are at each others throats constantly, and that is what has honed them into such fierce adversaries. Only the Strong survive. If neccessity is the mother of invention, then under-handedness is the father of creativity. Magical research = catching your enemies with their pants down.
Stigger 02-15-07, 08:36 PM	I'd very much disagree with those thoughts, but as they stem from a basic perception and understanding of the world, there's little point to arguing the matter, as you won't change my mind, and I'm certain I won't change yours. While I can agree with you to a certain point, the idea that innovation and change not occurring without conflict is absurd to me. You don't require conflict to have a challenge or necessity of some better tool. Conflict does make it happen faster of course, but it's hardly pre-requisite.
Karsus the Mad 02-15-07, 09:09 PM	Depends on how narrow or broad an individuals definition and understanding of 'conflict' is. Conflict is a requirement of progression. The conflict of being faced with a problem and needing to find a solution or suffer the consequences. If there is no problem, there is no solution needed, thus one will not be found. It's not just humans either, it's life. However, I think such an approach for the magister isn't the best choice. She'll have to go through mageduals anyway as stupid magelings will attempt to challenge her for her 'uber magic toys'. There's no need for it to be the selection method. I'd rather have the universe hand me my damnation instead of making me work for it:cool: This reminds me of the Babylon 5 Universe. Shadows (Chaos through warfare) and the Vorlons (Order through obedience), with both believing their method the only way for evolution. In the process nearly wiping out all the younger races...go figure....
dragonheart 02-15-07, 09:41 PM	Does conflict occur? yes does it often push (some) things forward? yes Does it destroy at least as much as it creates? yes does this mean that it is the only way things can progress? no one of the things coming out of modern (late 20 th centrury/early 21 century evolution research is just how important cooperation has been in evolution. the same may be said about magic - the highest form of cooperative magic is almost certainly elven high magic - used for the benefit of the race. this is perhaps the biggest difference between human and elven psychology - we think individual first they think race/group first. Effectively the purpose of essentially every mythal I've seen described was not so much defense (not that it didn't have that aspect) but rather the support and improvement of the folks living wihtin the Mythal. did this include defending it from significant foes of the group? yes was this the "primary" purpose? no THat is partly why the Mythals seem to fail - they do not ward first and so ward vs everything - they ward everyday things (for the area) not some major potential dangers or unusual types of attacks (Myth Glaurach and its fall to orcs that had never eaten elven or human flesh; Myth Drannor's internal destruction weakening the mythal and then being attacked by a huge army of 'loths, etc) THe nice thing here is that yoru comments have forced me to go back and eximine some mythals I've been working on and recognize taht they are more human than elven - I'll have to redo them and recalculate now :D .
Karsus the Mad 02-15-07, 10:18 PM	Does it destroy at least as much as it creates? yes How so? The vast majority of conflicts destroy nothing. If you're referring to war, then yes. War however is not the only, nor most prevalent, of conflicts. one of the things coming out of modern (late 20 th centrury/early 21 century evolution research is just how important cooperation has been in evolution. And the reason why cooperation has played such an important role in evolution?:) As for high magic and mythals, I haven't examined it in depth, but simply glancing over the "Purpose of High Magic" section certainly makes it seem protection is the primary use. Note that 'protection' doesn't need to mean from "someone wanting to hack my head off.". The Purpose of High Magic While High Magic separates an elf from his fellows and severs some of the sacred ties with Arvanaith and Arvandor, both the High Mage and the elves understand it is for the greater good of both the Mage and the community. High Magic's primary use is the protection and support of the Weave, the forces of nature, and for the betterment of the elves, all of whom are dedicated to physically and magically supporting those same goals, albeit less directly. High Magic may create mythals to protect cities and gates to allow instantaneous transport across the planet, or allow elves to grow majestic buildings and walls around their sylvan cities. However, High Magic also (and far more frequently) is used to prevent droughts and blight from destroying forest glades, slow or speed the flow of rivers or winter run-off to prevent (or sometimes cause) floods, and work with the magics inherent in the planet to find large-scale problems and solve them for the Weave and all the races of Toril, since the Weave cannot do so itself, and the mortal races cannot ignore the immediate to see the inevitable. THe nice thing here is that yoru comments have forced me to go back and eximine some mythals I've been working on and recognize taht they are more human than elven - I'll have to redo them and recalculate now . See? This lil' conflict of ours has destroyed nothing but has resulted in you feeling the need to reexamine an idea and the result is an improvement upon the original. Yay conflict:D
Stigger 02-16-07, 01:09 AM	Cooperation helps species by making survival a group effort, rather than a individual effort, making it more likely that the species will survive to propagate itself. Independent species are either going to have to fill a specific ecological niche (that's obviously very tenuous in some circumstances) or face extinction when confronted with a competitor who pools their group resources and efforts more effectively than the independent does by itself. Though to be honest, while correct in a technical sense, it's a bit disingenuous to use conflict in that sense, when it was fairly obvious that it was being referred to in a violent capacity. I think adversity would be a better word to use in the sense you seem to be implying KtM.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-16-07, 12:13 PM	Adversity, Hardship, Strife… Etcetera. They all make us think outside that box. Make use imagine the unimaginable. Past Magisters had to create some pretty interesting spells to protect themselves from the adversity impressed upon them by their fellow mages. This forced them to make advancements in the Art whether they were good or evil. Then there is the argument that Evil mages don’t share their Art. They do after some other mage has killed him or her. I would like to know of some advancement that came from being all happy and content? Azuth selecting all the future Magisters just isn’t as interesting as the old selection process plus it don’t make a lot of sense.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 12:19 PM	Chaos theory tells me that nothing is inherently better than anything else, and EVERY SITUATION must be examined individually; and one should make one's actions based on careful analysis, not moral, ethical, or philosophical absolutes. And that's my take on it. And life.
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 12:28 PM	-Take that, Kant!
GothicDan 02-16-07, 12:36 PM	Consider me an empiricist with an epicureanist's love of life. ;)
Karsus the Mad 02-16-07, 04:59 PM	Cooperation helps species by making survival a group effort, rather than a individual effort, making it more likely that the species will survive to propagate itself. Independent species are either going to have to fill a specific ecological niche (that's obviously very tenuous in some circumstances) or face extinction when confronted with a competitor who pools their group resources and efforts more effectively than the independent does by itself. I know. I was attempting to be a smartass in a polite non-smartass manner in order to get the obvious response: it increases the chance of survival. Why does a species benefit from an increased chance? Because there's the threat of extinction. Without a threat, there is no need to find a solution. I think I failed to get my point across:embarrass Though to be honest, while correct in a technical sense, it's a bit disingenuous to use conflict in that sense, when it was fairly obvious that it was being referred to in a violent capacity. I think adversity would be a better word to use in the sense you seem to be implying KtM. Sorry about that. Adversity is a much more accurate word.
Fabius Maximus 02-16-07, 06:33 PM	Chaos theory tells me that nothing is inherently better than anything else, and EVERY SITUATION must be examined individually; and one should make one's actions based on careful analysis, not moral, ethical, or philosophical absolutes. And that's my take on it. And life. Okay, now that you solved the situation: Did it help to prevent the resulting mob to lynch you? ;)
GothicDan 02-16-07, 07:04 PM	Yep. It never happened in the first place, because I already ruled out taking any actions that would most likely lead to such a result. ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-17-07, 02:31 AM	Consider me an empiricist with an epicureanist's love of life. ;) Well then who's the realist here? The purist or the empiricist.
Stigger 02-17-07, 05:05 AM	Realism would imply taking everything out there into account... purism by nature is exclusionary... so...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-17-07, 12:19 PM	The Empiricist exists in a land of theoretical! Analyzing every possibility, but often disconnected from the realities of society. Maybe that’s why we allow our own moral judgments to guide us in our every day decisions instead of the cold unrealistic gather of pro and con data. We often go with what we think is right or pure often ignoring the empirical data before us. I have yet to meet an Empiricist that has any grasp on the way the world works. This is why social scientist are not ruling the world. They don’t get it.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 02:31 PM	Adversity leads to evolution. Adversity would include conflict, climactic variations, predators, etc.. Evolution could mean genetic mutations, or something as simple as the wheel. It would also include magical progression in a fantasy setting. Without adversity, there is no need for change, and a society/organism/culture begins to stagnate. In an epidode of Star Trek: TOS, there were a group of beings who had had everything handed to them by a super-computer. They didn't need to work or hunt or anything, and they lived in a veritable "Garden of Eden". They hadn't evolved AT ALL in thousands of years, and had the minds of little children. Now, I know that that is Sci-fi, but those old episodes were written by some of the best 'social scientists' of that era. Most were Sci-fi writers known for their poinent sociatal messages cleverly masked as fiction. Many of those episodes touched on deep issues that our own world was (and still is) facing, such as nuclear escalation, predjudice, equality of the sexes, etc.. So I feel that even though that show was fantasy the writers did know a thing or two about the world. Another Sci-fi example that actually ties into D&D's game rules - Most of Larry Niven's books takes place in the same univers (maybe all), and in it Man has risen to the top of the food chain, mostly because he is the deadliest predator ever to evolve. Others might have claws, tentacles, weird powers and abilities, but man has something none of them have - the ability to quickly adapt to almost any situation, and exploit it for his own well being. We are the cockaroaches of the universe. :D Notice, in D&D, humans get the extra feat and extra skill points to simulate this. Other races may start out a little better, but then a human quickly outstrips them with abilities. Even in RAW, humans are the best because of their natural adaptability due to adversity. Notice, in most worlds and especially in the Realms, its the humans who are large and in charge. Elves may live a thousand years, but humans still manage to pump out more powerful mages in 1/10 the time! Why? Because humans had to drag themselves up from the primordial ooze and fight for whats theirs, battling every other species for supremacey on their way up. They didn't live in peaceful 'Faerie' for thousands of years, or underground in giant cavern-kingdoms for untold millenium undisturbed. Notice what happened when Elves and dwarves encountered 'badness' for the first time: The Elves drowned their own city, and the Dwarves lost their underground kingdoms. The dwarves and Elves have been losing ground to other races for years because they were 'created' whole, and didn't have a million years of evolution to back them up. We have no claws, no quills, no chameleon-like abilities or thick hide. We don't have rows of sharp teeth, or spray ink out our butts, or have wings to fly away with. Yet, man dominates his environment, and its all because of our GREAT BIG BRAINS. Entire species were wiped out when they couldn't adapt (dinosaurs, etc), but man prevails because we laugh in the face of adversity. That is why I truly believe you need 'conflict' (and by that I mean adversity), in order to evolve. Although most of modern technology did stem from war-related experiments (including spying), one might point to NASA; the space program has been responsible for a huge number of breakthroughs. However, what is NASA then man's dream of CONGUERING space. We are determined to overcome everything the universe throws at us. And did not Nasa itself stem from the US's desire to beat the USSR to the moon? More adversity! And there you have it, the evil wizard WILL research all the harder, just to overcome the powerful 'good' wizard. Did you ever stop to think that that might be why Mystra creates Chosen? The bad guys have to strive that much harder to beat them, furthering magical research. Perhaps Mystra isn't such a bimbo after all... ;)
Stigger 02-17-07, 03:29 PM	I wasn't arguing that one was more valid than the other, simply that the empiricist was more likely to take everything into account and try to evaluate and make use of it, whereas the purist will only consider what he feels is 'right' by some arbitrary absolute and do his best not to be swayed beyond that. I don't think either is a particularly practical point of view to be honest... but in a literal sense, the purists cannot be a realist, since they just don't accept things that don't fit their criteria as valid, despite their potential use or validity. But I'd also say that realism depends very much on how you choose to define it, and by what criteria. Are we discussing the 'realism' of academia, social life, politics, military, what? All those things have pretty different criteria for what constitutes 'realism' since the definitions and necessities for each are very different. By the by, I'd agree with almost every word you said there Markus, nicely put.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 03:44 PM	By the by, I'd agree with almost every word you said there Markus, nicely put.Thank you. :) "Prove me right and I have learned nothing, prove me wrong and you have given me the gift of knowledge" One doesn't learn by always being right. ;) Thats not aimed at you in anyway Stigger, just at the general closed-mindedness I come across all over the Internet. It never ceases to amaze me.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-17-07, 04:00 PM	Well then who's the realist here? The purist or the empiricist. They both are.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-17-07, 04:19 PM	I think a point should be made that cooperation has helped humanity as much as conflict. Yes war is a powerful driving force for innovation and change, but change is not always good or bad. Throughout nature cooperation has evolved as a means of ensuring survival. Present day NASA, the International Space Station, Hubble, libraries, socialized medicine, and free schooling are all examples of people cooperating to advance society as a whole. Competition is healthy and necessary for a dynamic society but cooperation is also needed to keep that society healthy and stable.
BrianCritchley 02-17-07, 04:26 PM	And there you have it, the evil wizard WILL research all the harder, just to overcome the powerful 'good' wizard. Did you ever stop to think that that might be why Mystra creates Chosen? The bad guys have to strive that much harder to beat them, furthering magical research. Perhaps Mystra isn't such a bimbo after all... that is a good point, I mean how many new spells have the red wizards created directly or indirectly because the the symbul do ya figure?
The Simbul 02-17-07, 09:47 PM	I know this is two weeks old, but I'd like to say, my theory is he decided he was best served by not doing so. From what I've read Red Wizards and other assorted evil people try to kill him there roughly every fifteen minutes and then proceed to die in under five seconds. Taking away a good fraction of them's ability to cast there would only encourage them to get smarter and not march in to be knocked off in a convenient and expedient manner.I'm sorry but that is simply absurd. It is a bit like saying 15th+ level Wizards should not bother casting mindblank, because doing so only encourages their enemies to cast more scrying spells...or that prominent buildings should have their metal detectors removed so as to cut down on the number of people who can try to bring in weapons :uh-huh: Moreover, if we assume the aforementioned Red Wizards and other assorted enemies will all die 5 seconds later, then they certainly wont have the opportunity to learn from the experience, or share their knowledge with others, or make more clever plans now will they? The reason why Red Wizards still toss magic missiles and feeblemind spells at the Seven Sisters, despite them almost all having chosen to be immune to those specific spells, is because none of those Red Wizard who had the opportunity to try have lived long enough to share the results with their contemporaries. Back to the main issue; if the palace of the High Prince in Shade can sit upon a "nexus in the shadow weave" that can cut off Mystra's Chosen from the Weave if they dared to enter, despite there being nothing that resembles such a thing in the rules, then it is perfectly logical for Elminster's tower to be sitting on a tear in the Shadow Weave, when there actually is something in the rules that does allow for it and which makes it a logical option for him to have access to and to utilize. On three separate occasions Shadow Weave spellcasters have ambushed the Chosen of Mystra in their personal strongholds, and two of these attempts specifically involved exploiting the Shadow Weave as a means to access these otherwise magically impenetrable locations (Alustriel's palace in Silverfall, and the Simbul's throne room in Elminster in Hell). The only reason for the Chosen not to secure their strongholds in dead shadow weave magic zones is if the authors suspend logic and contrive it be so, and thus continue on what appears to be the same tedious and annoying pattern going as far back as 2000, namely artificially weakening them statistically in the rules and contriving them to act like magically inept morons in novels, in contrast to the more judicious actions and optimized stat blocks of other contemporary FR spellcasters, despite whatever age, or experience, or power the Chosen may have over them to the contrary. Also, on a tangent note for the record, virtually no Red Wizards wield the Shadow Weave, and those that do almost entirely work alone. Red Wizards who do draw upon the Shadow Weave are either player characters, unique BBEGs (the Zulkiress of Illusion), or are among the ranks of the cabals that were destroyed by the Simbul in Silverfall and the denouement of Elminster in Hell. Therefore a dead shadow weave magic zone around Elminster's Tower, Storm's Farm, or even the Simbul's Palace will do virtually nothing to impact the machinations or quick deaths of ambitious Red Wizards seeking entry or an opportune time to strike.
Stigger 02-19-07, 04:38 AM	Kinda doubt the Red Wizards would be stupid enough to get themselves beholden to Shar when they keep working in opposition to Mystra's own and don't get even so much as a slap on the wrist, divinely speaking. They're innovative to be sure and would happily try new things, but I can't see them embracing something that potentially invalidates a considerable amount of their own considerable knowledge. Individually, sure... as a group, no way in hell.
BrianCritchley 02-19-07, 04:44 AM	Kinda doubt the Red Wizards would be stupid enough to get themselves beholden to Shar when they keep working in opposition to Mystra's own and don't get even so much as a slap on the wrist, divinely speaking. They're innovative to be sure and would happily try new things, but I can't see them embracing something that potentially invalidates a considerable amount of their own considerable knowledge. Individually, sure... as a group, no way in hell. agreed. Mystra doesn't really attach any strings to the weave other then "umm yeah Krasus's avatar? don't do that" shar however is a differnt ball game, people make a big deal outta Mystra's denial but I bet you can count on your hands the number of people who Mystra has denied the weave too in the last 1000 years.
Karsus the Mad 02-19-07, 10:28 AM	I think a point should be made that cooperation has helped humanity as much as conflict. Cooperation is a result of adversity, the need to work together to overcome a problem that for the individual would not be possible. Evolution has resulted in cooperation, not cooperation resulting in evolution. It's merely a stepping stone. Once it's nolonger required, it will become obsolete and discarded. While cooperation has helped us get to this point, it in and of itself is not the factor that drives us to progress, nor is it the cause that forces a species to evolve. It is a tool that humans, and other life, have developed to increase the ability to overcome that which drives evolution. Nature is constantly trying to get rid of life by throwing problems at it, while life is contstantly trying to overcome the adversities tossed at it by nature. About like two kids slinging mud at eachother:P Whoever throws more mud than the other wins and it results in either extinction or evolution. "umm yeah Krasus's avatar? don't do that" Psst...it's Karsus....
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 10:30 AM	Psst...it's Karsus.... -Let it go...We've been called worse, anyway. :rolleyes:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-19-07, 02:25 PM	Cooperation is a result of adversity, the need to work together to overcome a problem that for the individual would not be possible. Evolution has resulted in cooperation, not cooperation resulting in evolution. It's merely a stepping stone. Once it's nolonger required, it will become obsolete and discarded. While cooperation has helped us get to this point, it in and of itself is not the factor that drives us to progress, nor is it the cause that forces a species to evolve. It is a tool that humans, and other life, have developed to increase the ability to overcome that which drives evolution. Nature is constantly trying to get rid of life by throwing problems at it, while life is contstantly trying to overcome the adversities tossed at it by nature. About like two kids slinging mud at eachother:P Whoever throws more mud than the other wins and it results in either extinction or evolution. Good Call! I glad you said it first. Cooperation is but one of the many tools that humans have to overcome adversity. So maybe an Evil Magister does have a place in the Realms universe! Also Markus I like everything you said about adversity. Makes a lot of sense. So maybe an Evil Magister does have a place in the Realms universe!? So are Evil mages just as likely to spread the use of magic as a good mage? If so, what’s with Mystra’s good guy favoritism? Also why was the method of the Magister selection changed from a conflict/adversity format? It just made more sense the old way even though she was a Lawful Neutral. I mean sure there was great loss of life, but in the end it seemed to insure the best candidate was named Magister. I agree with the Simbul the writers are making Elminster and the other chosen look like bumbling apprentices. This seems to stem from pure laziness on the part of the writers or an unwillingness to do the proper research. There are plenty of plausible magic’s that might catch Eminster unawares, but if they use the old well it’s 'Shadow Weave magic':rolleyes: to explain why EL’s tower is in ruins then they are seriously insulting the Realms readers of today. Now this is only if the Shadow Weave is their explanation! We assume that this will be there Explanation, because of the mention of Shar worshipers with the Zhents attacking Shadow Dale. So let’s wait and see if the writers disappoint us. Although regardless of how they explain it I’m really tired of the endless Realms shattering events. As I said before if Wizards wants to publish epic adventures they should convert the old Avatar Crisis adventures to 3.5 edition rules. Those Rocked! I would love to see them with art work similar to that which was on the re-released Avatar novel covers!:D
Stigger 02-19-07, 05:16 PM	There have been tons of less than goodly, if not downright evil Magisters in the history of the office. Probably outweigh the number of goodly ones actually. However, from what I understood of the reasoning that Mystra went by, the constant dueling for office was thinning out the herd of exceptional mages a bit, and wasn't really serving any real purpose beyond getting several talented mages killed annually for no real gain to her, or to Art. I suspect she felt the office of Magister had created a false arena for competition that stopped serving its original purpose. Magic changes and evolves, the changes to Thay recently come to mind most readily there, and of course the office of Magister is going to change along with it. Evolve or die, as they say. As to the eventual discarding of cooperation... personally I'm more of the school of thought that humans are hard-wired for being social creatures and that cooperation is part of our instinctive sensibilities. Sure, you can point out the constant state of conflict we seem to have come from... but... when was the last time you heard about a single man conquering something who didn't have an army at his back? Lone mavericks are well and good, and they are genuinely a good thing for innovation more often than not... but the rest of us social monkeys are needed to figure out ways to implement and apply those same innovations more often than not because we can find uses for them that the originator often can't... not to mention the issue of the shere scale cooperation can bring to the table.
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 05:21 PM	Also why was the method of the Magister selection changed from a conflict/adversity format? It just made more sense the old way even though she was a Lawful Neutral. I mean sure there was great loss of life, but in the end it seemed to insure the best candidate was named Magister. -The long and the short of it was because too many people were trying to kill the Magister, and become Magister themselves. Being the strongest wizard isn't neccessarily the best quality to have in a Magister, anyway. -Ioulaum, one of the greatest wizards out there, would not be a very good Magister. What does he do all day? He sits in his briny pool of stagnant, brackish water all day, more or less, hoping someone stumbles into his cavern. -The leader of, say, a Mage's Guild in Waterdeep would be a much better choice. The main point of the Magister is to proliferate magic. A Guildmaster certainly does this better than shut-ins.
Karsus the Mad 02-19-07, 05:38 PM	As to the eventual discarding of cooperation... personally I'm more of the school of thought that humans are hard-wired for being social creatures and that cooperation is part of our instinctive sensibilities. Sure, you can point out the constant state of conflict we seem to have come from... but... when was the last time you heard about a single man conquering something who didn't have an army at his back? Lone mavericks are well and good, and they are genuinely a good thing for innovation more often than not... but the rest of us social monkeys are needed to figure out ways to implement and apply those same innovations more often than not because we can find uses for them that the originator often can't... not to mention the issue of the shere scale cooperation can bring to the table. I was actually thinking theoretically when I said that:P More in the sci-fi department really. Evolving into beings of energy and what not. Transcendence. Deification. That sort of thing. If that's possible, I don't think 'human' would be a good description.:) -Ioulaum, one of the greatest wizards out there, would not be a very good Magister. What does he do all day? He sits in his briny pool of stagnant, brackish water all day, more or less, hoping someone stumbles into his cavern. Now LK, what problems do you have with Ioulaum? Thinking such silliness. Do you really think the one being that even came close to our greatness would actually just be sitting there for no reason?:)
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 05:42 PM	Now LK, what problems do you have with Ioulaum? Thinking such silliness. Do you really think the one being that even came close to our greatness would actually just be sitting there for no reason?:) -I went to go visit him a little while back. The "guy" is so pale, so pruny. He really needs to get out more. All he really does is lay around, watching that device he created shortly after the Fall. It's a small box that draws power from a Mythallar that constantly creates moving illusions within it. I believe he called it a 'Television'. Anyway, that's all Ioulaum really seems to do nowadays. He lays around watching his television. Your aspect was always closer to the guy. Maybe you can have a chat with him, and see what's up. I'll give you his address if you like.
MarkusTay63 02-19-07, 06:01 PM	Kinda doubt the Red Wizards would be stupid enough to get themselves beholden to Shar when they keep working in opposition to Mystra's own and don't get even so much as a slap on the wrist, divinely speaking. They're innovative to be sure and would happily try new things, but I can't see them embracing something that potentially invalidates a considerable amount of their own considerable knowledge. Individually, sure... as a group, no way in hell.Couldn't agree more. It is stated in the write-up of the Red Wizards (Plaese don't ask me where, I have the 1e, 2e, and 3e sources plus other material) that they go out of their way NOT to align themselves with any particular god. They don't exactly discourage individual worship, even amongst Zulkirs, but they also don't want to 'put all their eggs in one basket' as it were. Many of them (zulkirs included) pay homage to Azuth and Mystra; Red Wizards, at least the ones that get to high level, are not stupid. By throwing-in with a particular deity they offend others, and being of Mulhorandi decent they KNOW exactly where that can lead. I believe Szass Tam might even be culling Mystra's favor, by changing Thay's focus from militery take-overs to economic; they have become Faerun's Japanese, dominating through (magical) technology. One of the reasons why I moved Thay in my campaign is because I saw TOO MUCH potential for Thay's growth! Imagine if there was a famine in Rashemi and Thay GAVE them food? Or a huge forest fire in Aglarond and Thay helps put it out? If they made friendly gestures toward those two powers they would be nearly unstoppable in a push to control ALL of Eastern Faerun's commerce! My sticking Thay between Calimshan and Halruua, one a economic powerhouse, the other a magical one, places a certain stop-gap on their current activities. Not a lot of room for expansion there, in either of those areas. The Zhentarrim, on the other hand, are just plain nuts. Looking at these two powers is like looking at the difference between LE and CE. Before they have even fully consolidated their power over the Moonsea they are going to start pushing into other areas. Obviously losing their trade across Aunoroch has unsettled them a bit, but come on! How hard is it to set-up a couple of permanent portals? I think they have been stupid for way too long, and their greed continues to get the better of them over and over again. Makes me wonder if Szass Tam's various Moonsea enclaves aren't there to provide the Zhent's with a little 'push' in the right direction. After all, if your adversaries are distracted by the enemy in front of them, they never see the one sneaking around behind them. Anyway, my point is, don't worry about the Zhents and Shadowdale, they've played this card dozens of times before. It's getting old, and they usually wind up losing more ground in the long run then they gain. Just plain stupid... :nonono:
MarkusTay63 02-19-07, 06:05 PM	-I went to go visit him a little while back. The "guy" is so pale, so pruny. He really needs to get out more. All he really does is lay around, watching that device he created shortly after the Fall. It's a small box that draws power from a Mythallar that constantly creates moving illusions within it. I believe he called it a 'Television'. Anyway, that's all Ioulaum really seems to do nowadays. He lays around watching his television. Your aspect was always closer to the guy. Maybe you can have a chat with him, and see what's up. I'll give you his address if you like.I have a feeling he's trying to achieve Godhood, albeit at a slower and more sane pace then SOME PEOPLE I can think off.. :rolleyes: Combining magical might with powerful psionics is one of the few 'short-cuts' to divinity that mortals can take (Darksun setting). He's just biding his time; soon the world will have to face a giant angry floating brain! :eek:
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 06:12 PM	He's just biding his time; soon the world will have to face a giant angry floating brain! :eek: -The last time humanity was faced off against a giant, floating brain of near omnipotence, it won. Ioulaum should take note.
Karsus the Mad 02-19-07, 06:32 PM	-The last time humanity was faced off against a giant, floating brain of near omnipotence, it won. Ioulaum should take note. Are you talking about Futurama? And the big brain was defeated by the mortal Mystra's equivalent....
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 06:41 PM	Are you talking about Futurama? -Yes, yes I am. And the big brain was defeated by the mortal Mystra's equivalent.... -Eh. Fry has control over some of his bodily functions...
Stigger 02-19-07, 07:13 PM	Never could figure out why Bane would ever trust Fzoul... the guy is just the biggest moron. Seems he gets by just on luck and the hard work of others to me... one of those reasons I just have no respect for the Zhents once Semmemon left.
Fabius Maximus 02-19-07, 08:13 PM	Never could figure out why Bane would ever trust Fzoul... the guy is just the biggest moron. Seems he gets by just on luck and the hard work of others to me... one of those reasons I just have no respect for the Zhents once Semmemon left. Moron as in easily controllable?
Stigger 02-19-07, 08:22 PM	No, moron as in makes the worst possible decision he could given the circumstance... as in too blinded by his own dogma too much to make rational decisions... sure, pliant and dedicated to Bane, but otherwise he's too much of a zealot to succeed in the long run. With everything the Zhents have going for them, they should have gotten much farther than they have... largely due to people like Fzoul and Manshoon.
BrianCritchley 02-21-07, 12:38 AM	No, moron as in makes the worst possible decision he could given the circumstance... as in too blinded by his own dogma too much to make rational decisions... sure, pliant and dedicated to Bane, but otherwise he's too much of a zealot to succeed in the long run. With everything the Zhents have going for them, they should have gotten much farther than they have... largely due to people like Fzoul and Manshoon. umm what';s he done wrong precisly? fzoul has managed to take control of the entire moonsea region is a few short years. a challange that evaded zhentil keep for centuries before hand
Stigger 02-21-07, 03:00 AM	For one, managed to alienate the western half of the organization... and drove off the one fellow who cleaned up after he and Manshoon screwed something up, namely Semmemon... bounced from Deity to Deity so often its a wonder anyone trusts him at all... Unless I missed something he has a effective political control, but not an open control... and that's tenuous it seems should the locals find out about it, so kind of a crap version of tyranny there... he's got that gods-awful mustache, which is perhaps his most unforgiveable offense against the world, makes him look like a cheesy leather daddy who can't get his outfit right... did I mention the Semmemon thing yet? He's a house of cards, at least he should be according to everything I've managed to read about him and the Zhents.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-21-07, 03:04 AM	LOL cheesy leather daddy...so true so true...
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 08:31 AM	That mustache is horrendous isn't it? It really turned me off when I saw his picture on the cover of the Villians Lorebook...and in the FRCS...
Lord Karsus 02-21-07, 09:28 AM	-Same here.
BrianCritchley 02-21-07, 02:27 PM	For one, managed to alienate the western half of the organization... and drove off the one fellow who cleaned up after he and Manshoon screwed something up, namely Semmemon... bounced from Deity to Deity so often its a wonder anyone trusts him at all... Unless I missed something he has a effective political control, but not an open control... and that's tenuous it seems should the locals find out about it, so kind of a crap version of tyranny there... he's got that gods-awful mustache, which is perhaps his most unforgiveable offense against the world, makes him look like a cheesy leather daddy who can't get his outfit right... did I mention the Semmemon thing yet? He's a house of cards, at least he should be according to everything I've managed to read about him and the Zhents. he's temporarily lsot control of the western zhents yes but he already gave his world not to dick about in the west for the next coupla years anyway so no big loss there, in fact it BENIFITS the zhentarium as a whole as it means that the zhents can keep active and fzoul can say "ummm yeah sorry khelbhan but these guys don't take their orders from me" and he can always move to regain control of the western zhents later. as for his control of the moonsea being tenious well eys for now, but he'll slowly gain greater and greater control of it. he's got the time (no reason not to assume like the chosen of mystra the chosen of bane is effectivly immortal) Fzoul is taking things slowly but surely, slowly aquireing control. as for Semmemon, that wasn't a screw up, Fzoul seized power and Semmemon, who was long a RIVAL of Fzoul's fled. the only screw up there was Fzoul didn't KILL HIM. Semmemon was a loing time rivial of the man's nad had aspirations to command the zhents himself.
Lord Karsus 02-21-07, 02:33 PM	...and fzoul can say "ummm yeah sorry khelbhan but these guys don't take their orders from me" -Well, he won't have to do that ever, now... Fzoul is taking things slowly but surely, slowly aquireing control. as for Semmemon, that wasn't a screw up, Fzoul seized power and Semmemon, who was long a RIVAL of Fzoul's fled. the only screw up there was Fzoul didn't KILL HIM. Semmemon was a loing time rivial of the man's nad had aspirations to command the zhents himself. -I agree that this was Fzoul's biggest mistake. I, personally, like Sememmon, and I hope that he eventually topples Fzoul and becomes the leader of the Zhents. The Zhents aren't supposed to be a Banite Order, as Fzoul has seemingly made them into. They are supposed to be a shady business organization, and I think that Sememmon would pull that off the best.
Stigger 02-21-07, 04:01 PM	he's temporarily lsot control of the western zhents yes but he already gave his world not to dick about in the west for the next coupla years anyway so no big loss there, in fact it BENIFITS the zhentarium as a whole as it means that the zhents can keep active and fzoul can say "ummm yeah sorry khelbhan but these guys don't take their orders from me" and he can always move to regain control of the western zhents later. And so he lost the bulk of the trade and revenue to the Sword Coast pretty much entirely because he made a deal in which Khelben essentially screwed him over royally... though to be honest, I utterly disagree with the Khelben situation as it stands. Makes no sense whatsoever... particularly with all those agendas and loose ends of his still floating around. Neither here nor there though, but I wouldn't put it past Khelben to magically enforce that particular agreement regardless of his personal condition. as for his control of the moonsea being tenious well eys for now, but he'll slowly gain greater and greater control of it. he's got the time (no reason not to assume like the chosen of mystra the chosen of bane is effectivly immortal) Actually... Immunities (Ex): A Chosen of Bane is immune to aging effects and does not age. Bonuses still accrue, and the Chosen still dies of old age when his time is up. So... not really immortal, he just gets to look like a youthful git until he keels over after one shouting match too many... Fzoul is taking things slowly but surely, slowly aquireing control. as for Semmemon, that wasn't a screw up, Fzoul seized power and Semmemon, who was long a RIVAL of Fzoul's fled. the only screw up there was Fzoul didn't KILL HIM. Semmemon was a loing time rivial of the man's nad had aspirations to command the zhents himself. Half the reason Semmemon was a rival was because he kept making Fzoul look like an idiot when he came in and salvaged a situation that Fzoul had botched... the other half stemming from Semmemon consistently outmaneuvering him politically, up until that whole statis clone incident, which was more Manshoon's screw up than Semmemon's. Sure Fzoul and his goons could have crushed him like a bug, but what would that prove beyond the obvious fact that the 'Ultimate Tyrant' couldn't outmaneuver one stupid wizard and had to result to thuggery... And even when he did fully take over, he missed his chance anyway, lost the opportunity to crush Semmemon, and lost the Western branch while he was at it... And he's still got that mustache... which trumps every other arguement I could make :P
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-21-07, 09:23 PM	I think Fzoul really grew during his time under the thumb of Cyric and Iyachtu Xvim. He came out of it revaluating his belief structure and his approach on life. He had an epiphany if you will. Why follow a Tyrant when I can be a better Tyrant. I think he has done well for himself. He has accomplished things the Manshoon led Zhentarim hasn’t been able to pull off in 100 years of trying. He let the western Zhentarim drift away because it wasn’t worth the resources. He made that deal with Blackstaff, because it benefited him. Fzoul is aware that the Blackstaff and his new bad of goody goodies are up to something. So without strong centralized leadership the western Zhents will fall flat on their faces especially with Blackstaff cementing the good forces of the western heartlands. So after they get a good guy beat down I’m sure Fzoul will swoop in on a white horse (or Black Nightmare) to the rescue. Only after all thouse annoying Cyric worshipers are dead of course. So give the guy some credit. He finally has that organization on the right path. Does anyone else think that Cyric is a weak annoying God? I really wish Bane would wack him already!:D
Stigger 02-21-07, 09:56 PM	So the Harper Schism counts as cementing the goodly sorts of the Western Heartlands? News to me, unless something happened that I'm not aware of in Blackstaff... beyond the obvious thing with Khelben's change of state. As to him accomplishing those things Manshoon never could... true, but Manshoon was an even bigger idiot in a lot of respects. Besides, Fzoul's on a short term streak, his longer record is questionable at best. Suspect it's more like Semmemon giving him just enough rope to hang himself with... or should be anyway. :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-21-07, 10:03 PM	So the Harper Schism counts as cementing the goodly sorts of the Western Heartlands? News to me, unless something happened that I'm not aware of in Blackstaff... beyond the obvious thing with Khelben's change of state. As to him accomplishing those things Manshoon never could... true, but Manshoon was an even bigger idiot in a lot of respects. Besides, Fzoul's on a short term streak, his longer record is questionable at best. Suspect it's more like Semmemon giving him just enough rope to hang himself with... or should be anyway. :D The Blackstaff is now well and truly dead. One of his apprentices has replaced him, but I doubt that the agreement applies to his successors. Blackstaffs presence will not be felt in the Realms. However the new organization is considered by many to be stronger and more unified then the Harpers. I think the western Zhents are in trouble. And it looks like your buddy Semmemon has changed sides. He might be a good in coming novels. Or at least not such an evil guy. Not that he ever was totally evil.
MarkusTay63 02-21-07, 10:18 PM	And he's still got that mustache... which trumps every other arguement I could make :PToo true. :D I wonder if he twirls it while tying helpless lasses to train tracks. :rolleye2: The Blackstaff is now well and truly dead. One of his apprentices has replaced him, but I doubt that the agreement applies to his successors. Blackstaffs presence will not be felt in the Realms. However the new organization is considered by many to be stronger and more unified then the Harpers. I think the western Zhents are in trouble. And it looks like your buddy Semmemon has changed sides. He might be a good in coming novels. Or at least not such an evil guy. Not that he ever was totally evil.Dude, you really need to learn how to use spoilers. If I hadn't finished this book this morning I'd be a tad bit annoyed. Anyway, agree with you on the Sememmon part, though. In fact, it specifically mentions Ashemmi's soul being 'healed' and her desire to help Semmy move toward the light. Not too many bad guys get to participate in a High magic Ritual, unless you count all those Gold Elves... :P
BrennonGoldeye 02-21-07, 10:19 PM	The Blackstaff is now well and truly dead. One of his apprentices has replaced him, but I doubt that the agreement applies to his successors. Blackstaffs presence will not be felt in the Realms. However the new organization is considered by many to be stronger and more unified then the Harpers. I think the western Zhents are in trouble. And it looks like your buddy Semmemon has changed sides. He might be a good in coming novels. Or at least not such an evil guy. Not that he ever was totally evil. Yes, dead. The Moonstars aren't though. Niether is Laerel. Still, I agree, bad tidings for Zhents all around.:)
Old Sage 02-21-07, 10:54 PM	You really should've considered using SPOILER tags Lucien. The Blackstaff is now well and truly dead. One of his apprentices has replaced him, but I doubt that the agreement applies to his successors.I disagree. Given Khelben's knack planning things in the long run, I'd imagine he's the type of guy whose had several contingencies in place for quite some time (in case of his death). These contingencies likely ensure that a "status-quo" of sorts remains for quite some time after his unfortunate departure. To put it simply, Khelben would definitely plan ahead to ensure his own death wouldn't immediately disrupt any of his other long-term plans/agreements/pacts with others. He'd work to make life as stable as possible for his lady love, his apprentices, Waterdeep, and Tsarra herself, I'd imagine. Blackstaffs presence will not be felt in the Realms.I disagree with this, also. Tsarra has assumed the guise of the Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. This means that right after the events of the novel, she is a Lord of Waterdeep, head of the Moonstars and mage teacher at Blackstaff Tower. We don't know what happens subsequent to that. What is likely is that she might relinquish one or both of the first two offices. It's a crime to masquerade as a Lord of Waterdeep, so she may reveal herself to Peirgeiron who may decide to keep her on as a Lord. Or not. I doubt she'd get far trying to masquerade as one. She may have a better chance of masquerading as Khelben in terms of his leadership of the Moonstars, but canny members such as Malchor may soon find her out. This one is up in the air at present. She will definitely continue 'being Khelben' in terms of a presence in Waterdeep and a presence in his wizard school in Blackstaff Tower.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 12:27 AM	You really should've considered using SPOILER tags Lucien. She will definitely continue 'being *******' in terms of a presence in Waterdeep and a presence in his wizard school in Blackstaff Tower. I’m sure she will make an able replacement for BlackStaff in her capacity as mage teacher of Blackstaff tower. We have yet to see if she has what it takes to be The Blackstaff. She is young, immature, and prone to jump to conclusions. She way well indeed retain her positions with the Lords and the Moonstars, whether she will be good at it has yet to be seen. Also she is not a Chosen. Her Art maybe strong, but she is no Blackstaff! On a related note. I’m getting a little tired of the realms writers getting rid of time honored characters and replacing them with young uninteresting characters. First Vandergast gets replaced and now Blackstaff. What next, Elminster!?!
Stigger 02-22-07, 01:47 AM	Careful what you ask for... the Shadowdale part of that upcoming mega-adventure might just give it to you. And Semmemon is/was/whatever evil in a non-socially maladjusted sort of way. One of the reasons I like him so much is he had a certain style and grace without resorting to the oh so boring cliche of being a monster in human skin. One of the few really interesting evil characters out there in my not terribly humble opinion. And sure the Moonstars may be stronger and more unified, but they don't really compare well to the Zhents in numbers. It's going to have to be a very deep and sneaky game if they want to last long against the sheer weight of numbers.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 02:12 AM	Careful what you ask for... the Shadowdale part of that upcoming mega-adventure might just give it to you. And Semmemon is/was/whatever evil in a non-socially maladjusted sort of way. One of the reasons I like him so much is he had a certain style and grace without resorting to the oh so boring cliche of being a monster in human skin. One of the few really interesting evil characters out there in my not terribly humble opinion. And sure the Moonstars may be stronger and more unified, but they don't really compare well to the Zhents in numbers. It's going to have to be a very deep and sneaky game if they want to last long against the sheer weight of numbers. There is too much infighting among the Cyric worshipers. The Western Zhents are disorganized and will likely thin their own numbers long before the Moonstars raise a sword against them. I know what you’re saying about Semmemon. I have always thought he was much cooler then Manshoon. However, your buddy Semmemon is in love. Now that his lady love isn’t spell bound to do evil I think you will see him move toward neutrality. If not outright goodness. His recent actions defiantly go counter to his alignment. His participation in Elven High magic can be construed as a very good act. I mean he had to give up some of his life force to participate. Evil people don’t share their life force.
Stigger 02-22-07, 02:29 AM	He always was in love... that hasn't changed anything really. I'd disagree with the evil not sharing their life force though, particularly if that said loved one asked it of them. One of those reasons I think Sune's probably the most underrated deity out there. Just because you will do something for a loved one doesn't mean you'll do it for anyone else... much less incinerate them for even asking. Wasn't actually referring to the Western Zhents there actually, but to the Zhents as a whole. As idiotic as the leadership is, sheer numbers can do a lot of damage. Which is why I said it would have to be a deep and sneaky game to encourage just that sort of infighting and conflict amongst the ranks of the Zhents.
MarkusTay63 02-22-07, 02:40 AM	Once again LLKN totally disregards the politeness of spoilers. :rolleyes: Anyway, LOVE is the greatest magic of all, just ask Harry Potter. :D
BrianCritchley 02-22-07, 04:41 AM	yet again you've failed to prove fzoul is an idiot. in fact I'd say the harper schism was a rather nice feather in the man's cap with one single agreement he splinmtered the harpers in addition to khalbhan IIRC Alustrial pulled out in disgust. that's 3 epice level arch mages removed from the rants of the harpers in a single stroke furthermore fzoul likely didn't see much room to expand in the west so he was willing to make this deal. the agreement doesn't say he'kll have to pull out of areas he's already in, and the zhents have influance pretty much everywhere they are gonna, furthermore to expect PERFECTION from any character is poor logic. any well thought out storyline is going to have concequences for any action. the idea of the master planner whose plans go perfectly in every aspect and he never has to give in the give and take, is unrealistic and honestly? gets tiresome fast. Fzoul has set priorities for the zhentarium, a seperate vision if you would, and by all accounts he has suceeded wildly in realizing this vision. I'll argue part of the reason the zhents under manshoon faired so poorly over all is because they had no real focus and thus dabbled in EVERYTHING, this rersulted in em having a far reaching hand, but prevented em from having major achomplishments
Stigger 02-22-07, 07:53 AM	Part of the reason they dabbled in everything was that Manshoon was going in one direction, Fzoul in another, and a number of other minions all pulling their own little agendas into the fray. I'll happily concede that he's pulled it together into much leaner and streamlined Zhentarim... but from what I recall, he purged much of their 'non-Banite' talent, so he's probably not really in much better a position strategically. I'm sure he was laughing all the while the Harpers were at each others throats... but he's not really in all that different a position ultimately. But it does underscore his essential problem... ideological purity trumps competance with him. Brings to mind any number of despots who've risen far, only to fall farther because of just such an absurd policy. See where I'm going with that?
bitter thorn 02-22-07, 11:21 AM	I'm inclined to agree with Brian here. WotC can't go on writing the Zhents as epic level keystone cops forever. I think we are starting to see some change in that direction. One can only hope.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 01:50 PM	-A lot of people out there want to see a novel/sourcebook written for evil (asides for Champions of Ruin), because they feel there is too much of an emphasis on good in the Realms. While I disagree, I think a novel dealing with Sememmon making a final powerplay for the Zhents would be a cool novel. Perhaps somewhere in it, we could also learn how/why Bane came back so suddenly.
Stigger 02-22-07, 04:59 PM	Put Semmemon in charge of them and I doubt the Realms will know what hit them... even better, make him one of Mystra's Chosen and have him step up to the plate in Waterdeep applying for Khelben's job. :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 07:06 PM	Once again LLKN totally disregards the politeness of spoilers. :rolleyes: Anyway, LOVE is the greatest magic of all, just ask Harry Potter. :D I thought I was significantly vague enough that a spoiler was not necessary. Stigger old boy I think you’re going to have to accept that Semmemon has gone to the side of light. Even if he hasn’t, it’s been stated that he has no desire to ever return to the Zhentarim! He has done all he can do with the organization. Even if Manshoon and Fzoul died suddenly I doubt he would return to the Zhentarim. He will be much more interesting as a force for good! Which is the direction the Realms writing lords are taking him. Which I have no problem with as I don’t think he was all that evil to begin with. He just had a habit of picking up the pieces after Manshoon and Fzoul messed everything up. That’s just my opinion. If you want to put him back in the Zhentarim that’s your call its your Champaign. However I believe in the Canon you will see some drastic changes in he character and actions.
Stigger 02-22-07, 07:27 PM	I'd kinda like to see him stay evil personally... was one of the few good things about the alignment in general, compared to the rest of the psychotics that seem to inhabit its ranks. But if he must be good... I still think he's a great replacement for Khelben. He's even got Ashemmi to play the role of Laeral. :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 07:47 PM	I'd kinda like to see him stay evil personally... was one of the few good things about the alignment in general, compared to the rest of the psychotics that seem to inhabit its ranks. But if he must be good... I still think he's a great replacement for Khelben. He's even got Ashemmi to play the role of Laeral. :D Learal is still around, but to busy with her pregnancy. As for the New Blackstaff you will have to read the book. It’s not a bad novel. Blackstaff goes out like a champ. And your boy shows up several times. He also participates in a High Magic ritual. You should pick it up. Oh the replacement has already been made despite it absurdness!
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 08:13 PM	Stigger old boy I think you’re going to have to accept that Semmemon has gone to the side of light. Even if he hasn’t, it’s been stated that he has no desire to ever return to the Zhentarim! He has done all he can do with the organization. -That's what he wants us to believe...:shifty:
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 09:32 PM	I like you, but WTF does Harry Potter have to do with FR?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 11:16 PM	I like you, but WTF does Harry Potter have to do with FR? Who mentioned Harry Potter?:confused:
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 11:41 PM	Who mentioned Harry Potter?:confused: -MT: Anyway, LOVE is the greatest magic of all, just ask Harry Potter. :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 02:53 AM	-MT: OM gods!
Stigger 02-23-07, 03:25 AM	Don't even bring up that pregnancy... sounds like that stupid 'chick-book' formula going around where the man of her dreams dies but she goes on to have his baby cuz she loveded him so much... just makes me want to wretch. As to Potter having to do with the realms... Potter seems to have more internal consistency within the series, so maybe we should hire her to write a bit for FR. :P
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 12:05 PM	As to Potter having to do with the realms... Potter seems to have more internal consistency within the series, so maybe we should hire her to write a bit for FR. :P -I would quit, if that happened. Lord Karsus would cease to participate on these Boards, and I would stop reading FR Novels...:mad:
BrennonGoldeye 02-23-07, 12:13 PM	-I would quit, if that happened. Lord Karsus would cease to participate on these Boards, and I would stop reading FR Novels...:mad: Well, Harry is getting naked with 6 horses in London, so maybe there are drow influences...:rofl:
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 12:32 PM	Well, Harry is getting naked with 6 horses in London, so maybe there are drow influences...:rofl: -I don't even want to know...
BrennonGoldeye 02-23-07, 01:12 PM	-I don't even want to know... :heehee He(Daniel Radcliffe) is starring in Equus. :rofl:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 01:32 PM	-I don't even want to know... Harry steps out of a portal proud of his new plane spanning spell. Harry: Humm appears to be mountainous and cold! Ron and Hermione are staring at a distant pass in the mountains. Hermione: Harry? What’s that? Looking up Harry sees what appears to be a teaming mass of some kind on the mountain side. Harry: I don’t know! Looks like a mass of ants. War Horn sounds Ron: maybe we should get out of here!! Harry scans the mountain side and notices the teaming mass of something moving toward himself and his friends. Harry: I will try to plane hop us out of here. Thwack! Harry’s head goes flying through the air and lands in Ron’s lap while Hermione gets sprayed with arterial blood flow. Later..... The massive half-orc is strapping Hermione to his Nightmare's saddle while Ron is literally being torn to pieces in front of Hermione’s eyes! The Hoard of beastly creatures Devours Ron while he’s still alive! The massive half-Orc warrior leans in to whisper into Hermione’s ear. Half-Orc: Welcome to the Realms. I hope you enjoy your stay! Buahhahhhhahaahahahah! Maniacal laughter ensues for quite some time.:D :P :D :P :D
Stigger 02-23-07, 02:19 PM	Not sure what you have against Harry Potter... I like the series personally. It's a very good take on the classic hero saga. You know, that same archetypal hero saga that pretty much the entire fantasy genre is based on? The world she's created is pretty interesting if you read between the lines and look at what's implied as well as what's stated.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 02:24 PM	Not sure what you have against Harry Potter... I like the series personally. It's a very good take on the classic hero saga. You know, that same archetypal hero saga that pretty much the entire fantasy genre is based on? The world she's created is pretty interesting if you read between the lines and look at what's implied as well as what's stated. Nothing against it. It’s a little too cute for a fantasy Novels, but I’m a fan of Terry Goodkind so I’m biased. I just thought it would be fun to see how little Potter would fair in the Realms.:D
Stigger 02-23-07, 03:03 PM	Cute? Thought it was a little on the dark side of things if you read the subtext. If it wasn't a little on the cute side the story would be nearly unbearable if you think about what that little kid has gone through. And honestly, I think they would fare better than that... no limitations on how often they can cast a day, no need to worry about spell components with the wands, and a few combat spells even. Give them a few weeks and I'd wager they could cast fireballs with the best of them... they just don't have much use for them in the society they live in. The books never state they don't have spells that are capable of mass destruction, quite the contrary if you look at Prisoner of Azkaban's premise, just that they don't use them, and are horrified by them really.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 03:08 PM	Those books are just written to a different audience. Children enjoy them and that’s all that matters. Even some adults enjoy them. I just happen to not be one of them. As for how they would fair in the realms. Who knows!? IMO they would be slaughtered fairly quickly depending on where they ended up. I don’t care one way or the other. The stories are to cute and flowery for me. If you like them rock on.
Stigger 02-23-07, 03:22 PM	lol, fair enough.
Karsus the Mad 02-23-07, 07:15 PM	-I would quit, if that happened. Lord Karsus would cease to participate on these Boards, and I would stop reading FR Novels...:mad: As would I. Karsus must remain united afterall:D
Stigger 02-23-07, 07:17 PM	Off to start a petition to get J.K. Rowling signed to writing for FR... :evillaugh
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 09:04 PM	I don’t like Harry Potter, but she isn’t a bad writer. I sure she could add all kinds of cuteness to the Realms!
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 11:39 PM	As would I. Karsus must remain united afterall:D -Indeed. One for all and all for one, and all that good stuff. :) Off to start a petition to get J.K. Rowling signed to writing for FR... :evillaugh -Good luck on that one...;) I don’t like Harry Potter, but she isn’t a bad writer. -Yeah, too bad she had to resort to plagerism to write her novel...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 11:57 PM	Screw yas' all! :P See below for explanation - I'd kinda like to see him stay evil personally... was one of the few good things about the alignment in general, compared to the rest of the psychotics that seem to inhabit its ranks. But if he must be good... I still think he's a great replacement for Khelben. He's even got Ashemmi to play the role of Laeral. :DI agree with this 100%. An evil character, that occasionally works WITH good people. He's not stupid, unlike most Zhents, he knows there is no reason to fight the chosen when you can get them to owe you favors. The boy is shaping up into a top-notch Nemesis-class baddy. And the 'LOVE' comment was aimed at Ashemi's love for Semmemon, when someone suggested that she might now 'turn him to the light'. I doubt he'll become a Paladin, but she is definately a neutralizing agent now. They even have an apartment in the new city of hope... if that ain't saying something... :rolleye2:
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 11:59 PM	Don't even bring up that pregnancy... sounds like that stupid 'chick-book' formula going around where the man of her dreams dies but she goes on to have his baby cuz she loveded him so much... just makes me want to wretch. As to Potter having to do with the realms... Potter seems to have more internal consistency within the series, so maybe we should hire her to write a bit for FR. :PShe wouldn't stoop THAT low, she has enough money now to BUY Hasbro and put it out of its misery. :P
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 12:08 AM	-Yeah, too bad she had to resort to plagerism to write her novel...:rolleyes:I will have to report this comment to her lawyers, expect to be contacted shortly. I'm fairly certain there are still laws against SLANDER; do you have ANY proof of your accusations? I'm pretty well read myself, and I don't recognize anything in her novels that I would considered 'stolen intellectual property'. REAL writers don't start off by writing game modules. Seriously, jealousy is an UGLY emotion.
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 12:08 AM	She wouldn't stoop THAT low, she has enough money now to BUY Hasbro and put it out of iys mosery. :P -That, I don't believe. She may be quite rich and all, but think about it rationally. In one corner, we have a woman who is having her time in the sun. It started with Harrpy Potter I, and it will end with Harry Potter VII. Hasbro, in the other corner, is an international corporation that has been around for quite a while, has a wide assortment of products that reach much further than Rowlings', and is likely to stay in business for quite a few more years.
Dark Wizard 02-24-07, 12:42 AM	Rowlings has just over a billion in personal wealth. (Pretty freakin' fantastic for a writer.) The revenue for Hasbro (#2 toy company in the world) in 2005 was just over 3 billion. The #1 toy company, Mattel, has 2005 revenue of just over 5 billion. Hasbro owns Milton Bradley and Parker Brothers, as well as WotC and Avalon Hill, thus they're the biggest producer of board games. They also hold such famous brands as Mr. Potato Head, Lincoln Logs, Tonka Trucks, Play Doh, GI Joe, Transformers, Care Bears and My Little Pony (oh, that's why they keep appearing in D&D's April Fools material). They also have the rights to make Star Wars and Pokemon toys. They also get to do a Marvel toy line now (seems like Mattel gets DC). Why is Mattel #1? They own Barbie. Side note: Mattel has He-Man. I'm not sure what Hasbro has, but sounds like a potential tie in for a D&Dish barbarian sword and sorcery cartoon series and toy line. I haven't seen a good one of those for a while now. They usually have such catchy if cheesy theme songs.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 02:30 AM	So if she used EVERY penny she has, she would only be able to buy 33% of Hasbro, so she needs another 1/2 billion to give her that controlling 51%. Well, she has one more novel and 3 more movies in the works, so I would say she will easily make that in the next two years. Hasbro, you're going down.... :devil:
ElberethSilverleaf 02-24-07, 03:24 AM	So does anybody know exactly what happened to Elminster’s tower??
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 03:27 AM	So does anybody know exactly what happened to Elminster’s tower?? Not yet. Unless some information has snuck out. The adventures have not been released yet!
ElberethSilverleaf 02-24-07, 03:36 AM	Not yet. Unless some information has snuck out. The adventures have not been released yet! Yeah I thought as much. I bet the people who work for WOTC sign nondisclosure agreements too.
Stigger 02-24-07, 05:20 PM	Good bet... And by the way, 33% would probably be enough to get control of the company. Not enough to make sure you can't be overridden, but enough to get control. Though I've no idea what the story is with this plagarism accussation... or is there some presumption of guilt going on before a trial? Has it ever gone to court? If so, was the verdict guilty? It's one thing to be accussed of something, quite another to have it proven, particularly in a legal sense... so unless it has been legally proven, it is indeed libel. Slander is spoken I believe, libel being its written form, btw.
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 06:21 PM	I will have to report this comment to her lawyers, expect to be contacted shortly. I'm fairly certain there are still laws against SLANDER; do you have ANY proof of your accusations? I'm pretty well read myself, and I don't recognize anything in her novels that I would considered 'stolen intellectual property'. -Though it is Wikipedia, the actual references are cited at the bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JK_Rowling#Lawsuits -The fact that the courts ruled in favor of Rowling does not neccessarily mean that she did not, in fact, plagerize material from Stouffer's works (the actual ones, anyway). How often do the courts sentence innocent people to jailtime? They're not perfect. -By the way, though this isn't really here nor there, what I said was not actually slander. Slander occurs when there is reckless disregard for the truth. What I said was based on some degree of truth, and then some here say. That's slander in the U.S., anyway. In European states, the definition (as to what exactly constitutes slander) is different. -Anyway, I await Rowling and her lawyers. Harry Potter is supposed to be a powerful wizard, eh? Let's see how he stands up to... Karsus, the Momentary god, Arcanist Extraordinaire, the most powerful wizard to have existed across the multiverse and crystal spheres... :evillaugh
Stigger 02-24-07, 06:30 PM	If they ruled in favor of her, then presumably she is not guilty of plagerism... at least as far as the law is concerned, hence it would indeed be libel to say she plagerized when she was exhonerated of the charge. Particularly when the person who accussed her was found to be perjuring herself... along with falsifying evidence. That hardly makes for a credible claimant... Though it does give me the idea that perhaps you can take up a case to Ao and saying that Mystra/Mystryl wrongfully deprived you of godhood, since presumably she was aware of the crafting of the Avatar spell, and by allowing it to succeed entered into a defacto agreement to transfer her own power to you, which she then breached by committing suicide, so you should be entitled to a retroactive ownership of her Portfolio.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 06:59 PM	If they ruled in favor of her, then presumably she is not guilty of plagerism... at least as far as the law is concerned, hence it would indeed be libel to say she plagerized when she was exhonerated of the charge. Particularly when the person who accussed her was found to be perjuring herself... along with falsifying evidence. That hardly makes for a credible claimant... Though it does give me the idea that perhaps you can take up a case to Ao and saying that Mystra/Mystryl wrongfully deprived you of godhood, since presumably she was aware of the crafting of the Avatar spell, and by allowing it to succeed entered into a defacto agreement to transfer her own power to you, which she then breached by committing suicide, so you should be entitled to a retroactive ownership of her Portfolio. Ture true! However given Karsus’s current state of being I believe the Portfolio would have to be transferred to his living descendents. As he is currently unable to take on the duties of God of Magic. Looks like all that back child support might get paid in full!
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 07:20 PM	If they ruled in favor of her, then presumably she is not guilty of plagerism... at least as far as the law is concerned, hence it would indeed be libel to say she plagerized when she was exhonerated of the charge. Particularly when the person who accussed her was found to be perjuring herself... along with falsifying evidence. That hardly makes for a credible claimant... -I know, which is why I mentioned that courts are not always fool-proof. Sure, they ruled in favor of Rowling, and deemed that Stouffer made things up. What's the exact truth? Eh, only those two really know. -And, again, it wouldn't be libel/slander, at least in the United States. Libel/slander entails blatent and radical disregard for the truth. If I said that Rowlings ate babies, and abused her children, then yes, that would be slander. What I am saying already has somewhat of a factual basis, so it's not really like I am blatently disregarding the truth, radically departing from it, you know? -And, when all else fails, I am a member of my school's newspaper, so I can also claim Journalists' Privilage. :D However given Karsus’s current state of being I believe the Portfolio would have to be transferred to his living descendents. As he is currently unable to take on the duties of God of Magic. -How are we not ready to taken the mantle of Lord of Magic?
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 07:40 PM	-Though it is Wikipedia, the actual references are cited at the bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JK_Rowling#LawsuitsBoy, and they call me a pessimist. ;) I've never heard of this case, because I am much less interested in the Author then her wonderful stories. Now, thanks to you, I like her on a more personal level. Obviously the legal system has cleared her, and I'm sure they went over all evidence with a fine tooth comb. She does Charity work... Come on, give her a break. :P
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 07:48 PM	She does Charity work... Come on, give her a break. :P -All right, all right...
Stigger 02-24-07, 09:05 PM	Ruling in her favor, telling the plaintiff that they had no case is one thing... ruling in her favor and essentially saying that the plaintiff was essentially a perjurer and a forger is quite another... there's not a lot of ambiguity in that one. But really, calling her a plagarist in spite of the evidence to the contrary could pretty easily be construed as an attack upon her professional credibility, so I'd say the libel case wouldn't be all that hard to push. Something even a journalist wouldn't be exempt from really... particularly when they were aware of evidence to the contrary of their accusation. But I still think you should press your case and claim that mantle of divinity... and you still have Ao's boss to appeal to if Mystra's 'gotten to him'. ;)
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 10:25 PM	Just drop it, we made 'kissy face' already. ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-25-07, 04:07 AM	-I know, which is why I mentioned that courts are not always fool-proof. Sure, they ruled in favor of Rowling, and deemed that Stouffer made things up. What's the exact truth? Eh, only those two really know. -And, again, it wouldn't be libel/slander, at least in the United States. Libel/slander entails blatent and radical disregard for the truth. If I said that Rowlings ate babies, and abused her children, then yes, that would be slander. What I am saying already has somewhat of a factual basis, so it's not really like I am blatently disregarding the truth, radically departing from it, you know? -And, when all else fails, I am a member of my school's newspaper, so I can also claim Journalists' Privilage. :D -How are we not ready to taken the mantle of Lord of Magic? Maybe your Visage can take up the mantle for you in your absence!
Stigger 02-25-07, 11:24 AM	You did, I didn't... I can at times be belligerent simply for it's own sake. :P Though if a mod reads that above statement, I assure you my computer was hacked since I would never do a silly thing like that. :D So... yeah. I'm still dubious about this whole mega-adventure idea thing... to put us back on topic a bit.