| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| NobodyNoOne05-23-07, 05:07 PM | Well since drow were banished into the Underdark, their language has (naturaly) changed during their long stay in Underdark. It mixed with other under-languages and now we have this exotic variant of elven language. My question is how much is drow dialect different from surface-elven dialect, and can they understand each other ? |
| Lord Karsus05-23-07, 05:24 PM | My question is how much is drow dialect different from surface-elven dialect... -Take a look at the Drow dictionary in Drow of the Underdark (2e), and then at my Elven Dictionary, over at the 'Keep. Compare and contrast. and can they understand each other ? -To a degree. Elven is to Drow as Latin is to Spanish. That's a nice analogy. |
| MarkusTay6305-23-07, 06:00 PM | ...As Italian is to Spanish I would say, with Latin being the equivalent of ancient Elven spoken at the time of the Crown Wars. ;) Perhaps even a little more different then that, because the Illthiiri had a different dialect to begin with. |
| Faraer05-23-07, 06:00 PM | The known lexicons have very little vocabulary overlap. |
| Lord Karsus05-23-07, 06:15 PM | ...As Italian is to Spanish I would say, with Latin being the equivalent of ancient Elven spoken at the time of the Crown Wars. ;) -Mmm, yeah Italian would probably be a better choice. Though, Spanish and Italian have a lot more similarities than Elven and Drow. |
| MarkusTay6305-23-07, 07:25 PM | Hence my second sentence. ;) Perhaps not Euro-Spanish, but rather something akin to El Salvadorean Spanish. Even then, maybe too close. Those human languages are only seperated by hundreds of years, not thousands. |
| GothicDan05-23-07, 09:37 PM | Having taken only a few years of Latin, I was able to translate a good 2/3 of an Italian song... Of course, I had 5 years of Spanish, too. So, yeah... I'd say the Romance languages are a little too tightly knit. What you may want to look at is, say, Latin and Etruscan. Lucius Tarquinus Priscus's original was "Lucomo" among the Etrurians of Tarquinii. You can see the "Luc" in common in Latin and Etruscan, but the "omo" part is very much not Latin (for an ending of a name). |
| Gray Richardson05-23-07, 09:48 PM | Ed Greenwood had this to say about the Drow Language: June 3, 2005: Faraer, Zandilar, et al: I believe that the language spoken by the drow of today is rooted in the elf tongue spoken by the drow before they ‘went under,’ but all that survives from the elvish they spoke then (which of course has continued to be spoken by other elf races, and hence developed in a different direction, changing more rapidly in the last few centuries than it ever did in earlier times, thanks to all the intermingling of elves with other races, and words being needed for new concepts and things as elves encountered genuinely new customs, industries, and so on) is a smattering of vocabulary and the grammatical structure that underpins it all. Which as Zandilar correctly points out, is the aspect of all non-Common tongues in Faerûn most neglected thus far. Most of us haven’t the time to delve into full linguistic development, particularly as most publishers would regard promoting such a thing (as anything but a web enhancement) to be financial suicide. What most DMs and Realms fiction writers are looking for is a handful of useful, cool-sounding words or phrases to give flavour to the speech of nonhumans (like the orc guards the PCs are creeping up on, the elf courtiers they’re eavesdropping on, or the dragon they overhear). In many cases, these will be used mixed in with Common, just as many English speakers of today lard their speech with individual words or even phrases from Spanish or French. The reasons the drow tongue now shares so little vocabulary with surface elven speech is threefold: the Underdark is a very different environment than the Realms Above, so new names and terms were urgently needed, while a lot of words were no longer in daily use and started to fade; there was a deliberate political attempt to distance the drow from the Hated Ones who’d spurned them (other elves), just as there’s a recent real-world American mood of anger against France re. the political disagreements over Iraq, with moves to change “french fries” to “freedom fries” and so on; and Lolth / Lloth (and her priestesses, under her command) saw controlling the very speech of the drow as a sure means to complete dominance over other faiths (both the “former faiths” of the surface elves, and the various other faiths, such as those of Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and later Eilistraee, that the drow had been dabbling in). So, yes, as Zandilar commented: “Drow and Elven should be a little like Italian and French as far as differences go. They share similar origins, but today they're totally separate languages.” Please bear in mind that this is just my opinion. The drow are from European mythology, Gary Gygax brought them into the D&D game (and therefore Greyhawk), and I was assigned (in writing DROW OF THE UNDERDARK) to “Realmsify” them (yup, that’s the word that appears in my contract for that book), and later create a detailed D&D game presentation of Menzoberranzan to make sure “Bob’s drow” were “properly in the Realms” (see the MENZOBERRANZAN boxed set, which can still be purchased in miniature form). I created Eilistraee because I was asked to create a “god for good drow” when doing DOTU. So saith Ed. |
| Zanan05-24-07, 03:47 AM | In essence, Ed just confirmed what I have been saying all along - without knowing his nigh-official word on the matter. In any case, it very much follows the logic behind any language developement - given that the dark elves live in isolation from all other elven tongues for some 12,000 years. I wonder how long it will take till someone finally asks whether the e.g. Yuirwood wild elves speak a different dialect than the suns of Evermeet ... |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 04:40 AM | That largely depends, too, on if the Yuirwood Wilds were around before or after the arrival of the refugees from Faerie... If it was before (as some Wild Elves were), then there'd be little in common, other than the occasional linguistic mingling that would occur with the Star and Moon Elves. If those particular Wild Elves DID arrive from Faerie, the language would probably be much more similar to standard surface Elven. |
| Grifone05-24-07, 04:46 AM | What you may want to look at is, say, Latin and Etruscan. Lucius Tarquinus Priscus's original was "Lucomo" among the Etrurians of Tarquinii. You can see the "Luc" in common in Latin and Etruscan, but the "omo" part is very much not Latin (for an ending of a name). Latin and Etruscan have nothing in common, just a similar alphabet... actually Etruscan was not even and indoeuropean language, so that means that its connection with latin is just as the connection between elven... and dwarwen ;) |
| The_Shaman05-24-07, 05:49 AM | My question is how much is drow dialect different from surface-elven dialect, and can they understand each other ? Hmm... I'd say it would be very far. Just the time frame we're talking about here is huge. Two human tribes that spoke the same language 8000 years ago and then went their own way have radically different language now. That is without the different environment or any conscious effort. I could put them in a similar language group, like Indo-aryan languages today. Mind you, that might make them as different as Portuguese to old Persian. |
| Alac Luin05-24-07, 10:02 AM | I hold a much differnt stance on this matter, mostly for gameplay reasons. Here, I really seem to be in the minority :) |
| MarkusTay6305-24-07, 11:04 AM | In essence, Ed just confirmed what I have been saying all along - without knowing his nigh-official word on the matter. In any case, it very much follows the logic behind any language developement - given that the dark elves live in isolation from all other elven tongues for some 12,000 years.Good points. I myself am of Irish decent, but cannot speak Gaelic (nor can any modern-day Irish). That language is derived from Arcadian (linguistic experts recently discovered), placing those Celtic peoples in the region of the Black Sea some 5000-7000 years ago. Another language that split-off during 'the flood' from that region is ancient Sumerian, wich became Babylonian and then Persian over thousands of years. I can honestly say that there is NOT a single similarity between the Indo-European languages and Gaelic, yet some 7000 years ago they were all the same. The fact that Elves live 1000 years GREATLY offsets the process of language-degradation, but still, after 12,000 years they won't even sound alike. I wonder how long it will take till someone finally asks whether the e.g. Yuirwood wild elves speak a different dialect than the suns of Evermeet ...I have the Yuirwood Elves linked to the Liosalfar (light Elves) in Fäerie in some of my pre-history stuff. It seems reasonable that they were around before the fall of Tintageer and, like the Dark and Wood Elves, had migrated to Toril earlier on. Light Elves are closely related to Vanir, who became the Moon (High) Elves after the Tana’Quesspora (the scattering). That is why the Yuirwood Elves are similar to moon Elves, because their decendents were related WAY back in time. That all just my take, however, and is NOT canon; you can do with it what you will. Occasionally I see refernces to 'Ancient High Elven', which used to be the 'court language' of the surface Elves, but has fallen into disuse , probably after the Crown wars. Today it is most likely just used for ceremonial puposes. There is also a 'High Drow' language, used exclusively by the priestesses of Lolth (I'm sure Zanan knows the name of that). I would go so far as to say that 'High Drow' is directly related to 'Ancient Elven', and although changed over twelve millenia it probably STILL has about 50% of the words in common with that tongue. The Drow version has taken on many words from Abyssal and other 'evil' languages, but the basics are probably very similar even today, because both of THOSE languages are preserved fairly intact through the centuries. I would hazard to guess that although both groups of Elves consider the 'high version' of their language sacrosanct, it is actually a debased form of Fey, and probably closely related to 'common' Fey (spoken in Fäerie). That, once again, is all conjecture on my part, but based heavily on what I've read (and not just D&D ;) ). So, if you use that, A priestess of Lolth could probably talk to a priest of Corellon in the High tongue... just before they kill each other. :D |
| Alediran05-24-07, 11:07 AM | IIRC the "Ancient High Elf" language is called Seldruin, to know it is a requirement to become an Elven High Mage. |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:09 PM | Latin and Etruscan have nothing in common, just a similar alphabet... actually Etruscan was not even and indoeuropean language, so that means that its connection with latin is just as the connection between elven... and dwarwen Etruscan scripts have been found in Greek islands and pottery along Asia Minor/Turkey. They're part of the Indo-Euro-IRANIAN branch of languages. And Latin DID borrow some actual vocabulary from Etruscan, if not the actual grammatical structure. So yes, they are related. *Wrote a paper on Etruscan and Roman influences on each other, and the Rome vs. Veii conflicts recently.* |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:10 PM | I have the Yuirwood Elves linked to the Liosalfar (light Elves) in Fäerie in some of my pre-history stuff. It seems reasonable that they were around before the fall of Tintageer and, like the Dark and Wood Elves, had migrated to Toril earlier on. Light Elves are closely related to Vanir, who became the Moon (High) Elves after the Tana’Quesspora (the scattering). That is why the Yuirwood Elves are similar to moon Elves, because their decendents were related WAY back in time. That all just my take, however, and is NOT canon; you can do with it what you will. The Planes of Chaos supplement for Planescape goes into the Ljosalfir and the Vanir - huge glowing trees of glowing Elves and such... It may be something you could find interesting. I also remember thinking the picture of the Ljosalf in the supplement was kind of hot. The connection you're drawing, linguistically, at least, could tie in with the Norse/Seldarine connections I've always liked to make, and the references to the Seldarine 'springing from even older gods,' and once having inhabited Ysgard in the distant planar past (referenced in the Evermeet novel for the first, and in Planescape Sources in the second). |
| Zanan05-24-07, 05:33 PM | Good points. I myself am of Irish decent, but cannot speak Gaelic (nor can any modern-day Irish). That is most likely because you were taught English from the off, i.e. the language that comes from the West Germanic dialect of the Anglo-Saxons. That language is derived from Arcadian (linguistic experts recently discovered), placing those Celtic peoples in the region of the Black Sea some 5000-7000 years ago. Another language that split-off during 'the flood' from that region is ancient Sumerian, wich became Babylonian and then Persian over thousands of years. I can honestly say that there is NOT a single similarity between the Indo-European languages and Gaelic, yet some 7000 years ago they were all the same. Be wary with this. Celtic (both of the surviving branches) are most definitely Indo-European languages, only a handful of languages in Europe are not. It is thought that differences in the days of the Romans were not that great and with a bit of good-will, Romans and Celts may have understood one another - if only a little. Of course, Elven back then and now are not as distantly remote from one another as Indo-European is from modern day languages - or their branches. Hence, as I said a few times with regard to the topic at hand, it would be a good example to compare the language of these early Western Germanic chaps (ca. 150 CE) with the branches of their tongue these days, i.e. English, Dutch, German, and the like. The average German without any tutulage in English or Dutch will understand very little indeed (rest assured, I know what I am talking about), and vice versa. And they have been virtually in direct contact with one another over all this time. Anyway, going by the rules, it costs you about 1 to 2 skill points to learn Drow, i.e. nothing to fret about that much. Occasionally I see refernces to 'Ancient High Elven', which used to be the 'court language' of the surface Elves, but has fallen into disuse , probably after the Crown wars. Today it is most likely just used for ceremonial puposes. There is also a 'High Drow' language, used exclusively by the priestesses of Lolth (I'm sure Zanan knows the name of that). Indeed. The "old" Drow of the Underdark goes into detail about this and the language is not understandable to the common drow ... or even the educated one. It is used these days only by the priestess and - just to give you an example - even the master of Sorcere Pharaun Mizzrym did not know it. Unless I am mistaken, it is indeed an older if not ancient version of Drow Elven (based on Ilythiiri, no doubt), but whether that is understandable to the average elf either? One might expect that modern day Elven does no longer sound like the Elven of Crown Wars either. |
| MarkusTay6305-24-07, 05:40 PM | Ahhh.. but both the surface and Drow versions of the 'high' tongue probably remain mostly intact, even after thousands of years, BECAUSE it is only used for ceremonies - Sort of the way Latin is used today. I understand that the Drow had to add MANY words to it because of both their environment and Abyssal connections, but I can see at least a 20-30% rate of understanding one another. Thats why I found the above scenario I postulated so funny. Neither the Elves or Drow know about the other's 'high' tongue, so can you imagine if a Drow priestess of Lolth heard a priest of Corellon chanting in something that sounded VERY MUCH like her 'holy language'? Literally, all Hell would break loose. Thats why I suggested the relationship... it makes a rather interesting plot-hook. ;) |
| Zanan05-24-07, 06:00 PM | Remember too that we do not know how closely related the ancient Elven dialects are. Aryvandaar Sun Elven might have been quite different to the Ilythiiri tongue spoken 1,000 miles to the south. Maybe I am wrong, but I would assume that High Drow and the smattering of ancient words used for Elven High Magic might be related ... but I am also under the impression that Elven High Magic might very well use Draconic (or even an ancient of it) too. So that goes out of the proverbial window too. Obviously, the priest of Corellon wouldn't have the chance to think about the similarities between the languages ... |
| MarkusTay6305-24-07, 06:16 PM | So the Elven High tongue might have Draconic influences, and the Drow High tongue might have Abyssal influences... interesting. :plotting: |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 09:48 PM | Why in the world would Elven High Magic have Draconic influence, when it comes from the Seldarine? If anything, I imagine it'd have some Norse or Fey influence. Personally? I'd say it has a few bits of the Words of Creation, or something similar, within it. |
| MarkusTay6305-24-07, 10:42 PM | But Dan, the original high tongue of both was derived from 'low' Feyrie (lets call the Fey language that), IMHO. High Feyrie would probably come as close to the 'true' language as any mortal tongue can. The true language... tongues... the music of the spheres... the song of creation... can only be understood by gods (and certain PrCs). Did you read the first Moonshae series? The one where the main characters 'cut through' Fäerie? They had to be blindfolded, otherwise there was a good chance they would lose their sanity in the presence of such unimaginable grandeur. I think the true language of the Cosmos would be sort of like that, it would make most mortals lose their minds. Thats why Fey music has such a hypnotic affect on mortals, and frightens Dark Elves to death. That tiny spark of 'purity' that Feyrie shares with the music of the Spheres is enough to lay all of one's evils bare. Like what Dagger does in Marvel Comics, or better yet, Ghost Rider's penitent Stare. The one thing that would frighten a Drow above all else is to have to look into it's own cold dark heart. ;) |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 10:50 PM | But Dan, the original high tongue of both was derived from 'low' Feyrie (lets call the Fey language that), IMHO. High Feyrie would probably come as close to the 'true' language as any mortal tongue can. The true language... tongues... the music of the spheres... the song of creation... can only be understood by gods (and certain PrCs). Also, the use of spells like the Last Word (Planescape), buried in one of the layers of Arborea, reflect something of this tongue, too. Did you read the first Moonshae series? The one where the main characters 'cut through' Fäerie? They had to be blindfolded, otherwise there was a good chance they would lose their sanity in the presence of such unimaginable grandeur. I think the true language of the Cosmos would be sort of like that, it would make most mortals lose their minds. Agreed Otherwise... Are you arguing with me on something, here? You started your words with 'But,' but didn't actually go against anything I said... |
| Lord Karsus05-24-07, 11:04 PM | Did you read the first Moonshae series? The one where the main characters 'cut through' Fäerie? They had to be blindfolded, otherwise there was a good chance they would lose their sanity in the presence of such unimaginable grandeur. I think the true language of the Cosmos would be sort of like that, it would make most mortals lose their minds. -That wasn't Faerie. That was the Elven Queendom of Synnoria. ... but I am also under the impression that Elven High Magic might very well use Draconic (or even an ancient of it) too. So that goes out of the proverbial window too. -High Magic Rituals are recited solely in Seldruin. Hmm... I'd say it would be very far. Just the time frame we're talking about here is huge. Two human tribes that spoke the same language 8000 years ago and then went their own way have radically different language now. That is without the different environment or any conscious effort. -I don't think you are taking into account the fact that the average Human lives for about 60 years, while the average Elf lives for about 600 years. ;) |
| Another Gnome05-25-07, 01:34 AM | I don't think you are taking into account the fact that the average Human lives for about 60 years, while the average Elf lives for about 600 years. Actually they both live about as long as the average orc. Give or take a few minutes. |
| The Ubbergeek05-25-07, 01:50 AM | Actually they both live about as long as the average orc. Give or take a few minutes. You are not wrong... Accidental (or not so accidental...) deaths account a lot, and many don't live even the 1/3 of their max lives lenghts in the baddest parts I bet, and then there is the plagues and other illnesses... In the middle age, you didn't live that long. |
| Zanan05-25-07, 03:59 AM | So the Elven High tongue might have Draconic influences, and the Drow High tongue might have Abyssal influences... interesting. :plotting: Nope ... in either respect. The first bit was just a suggestion, as - unless I am mistaken - most arcane magic and its writing were handed down to the elves and humans by the dragons and I seem to remember that arcane scrolls etc. are still written in Draconic, are they not. I would thus suspect that High Elven Magic rituals - being pretty old - will use Draconic as well, or High Draconic, if you want. Drow High has absolutely nothing to do with Abyssal. Dunno where that impression came from. If anything, it is a direct heir to the dark elven tongue spoken by the Ilythiiri. What we know of High Drow is mainly restricted to ... Ed Greenwood's The Drow of the Underdark Visitors to drow settlements may also sometimes hear "High Drow," an archaic, rarely-used dialect known and heard chiefly by the clergy of Lolth (used in spell incantations, or between priestesses when they don't want lesser drow within hearing to understand their speech). High Drow incorporates some specialized gestures (part of the Silent Language), which drow not familiar with it sometimes call "The Secret Signs". |
| Zanan05-25-07, 04:01 AM | -High Magic Rituals are recited solely in Seldruin. Ahem ... where is that mentioned and what is Seldruin? Forgotten Realms sources preferred. |
| Gray Richardson05-25-07, 08:36 AM | Seldruin is from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, actually, p.85 in the Languages section, under the Dead Languages heading. Seldruin is the language of Elven High Magic, and it is written with the Hamarfae alphabet. I think of Seldruin as the language of the Seldarine, sort of an elven equivalent of Celestial. I am not sure if Seldruin was ever actually spoken as a regular language by any elves, although I suppose it could have easily been the language spoken in Tintageer, or in the world of Faerie before the sun and moon elves gated to the Realms, fleeing the tidal wave that razed their island from the seas of Faerie. Please note that the Sun & Moon elves came from Tintageer, an island nation in the world of Faerie that was destroyed over 24,000 years ago. (See the novel Evermeet) The dark elves likely came from some other world, possibly the world of Threnody from which the goddess Kiaransalee hailed. Kiaransalee was once an elven queen of Threnody. Through her dark experiments she engineered a necromantic apocalypse on her homeworld, transforming the populace into her undead thralls. I suspect that many of the original dark elf settlers of Ilythiir were refugees, fleeing the horrors of Threnody. Whether the dark elves came from Threnody or some other place, It is only logical to assume that the dark elves would have had a separate language from the sun and moon elves that came from Tintageer. |
| MarkusTay6305-25-07, 10:50 AM | My suggestion that their may be Draconic influences in High Elven is not so much based on Elves taking from Dragons, but rather both taking from a mutual source. Dragons, in mythology throughout the world, are representations of primal forces. They are all incredibly powerful creatures, but look very different from each other from culture to culture. In D&D, magnify that a 1,000,000 times or more, considering the multititude of possible Dragon types in the multiverse. Then, factor in the Draconic Pantheon and some of ther creation myths, like the ones concerning the great wheel. IMHO, the very word 'Dragon' is a holdover from the primal language, and means "a being of incalcuable might". The terrestial Dragons we see today have very little in common with the ancient cosmic dragons that helped the gods create the universe. However, the word has stuck down through the ages. Just like the word 'Titan' has come to mean "huge giant", when originally it was meant to describe the race of beings that came before the gods. Every ancient tongue probably has bits and pieces left from the Creation Song, they are just not recognizable for the most part. High Elven and Ancient Draconic might have a few words in common because of a common source, not because one was derived from the other. At least thats my take (Hence my two definitions of the word Tanarri in another thread). Drow High has absolutely nothing to do with Abyssal. Dunno where that impression came from. If anything, it is a direct heir to the dark elven tongue spoken by the Illythiiri.Someone in another thread suggested it, and I thought it was you. It makes sense, considering the Ilythiir involvement with Demons during the Crown Wars, not to mention Lolth's own background. All of the High tongues (the Dwarves probably have one two) harken back to an earlier primordial time, and would naturally have a few common elements. Humans wouldn't have a high tongue, because they were not created as were the other races, and therefore did not have much interchange with Devine beings early on. I figure in the very beginning their was just the single language (High Celestial?) that was like music - the song of Creation. The next language that should have sprung up would be Diabolic, created by whatever being first opposed the creator (depends on the religion, but at some point someone, usually related to the Creator in some way, challenges him). Diabolic would be the exact opposite of the true language, and it would be the tongue of Chaos, destruction, and Entropy. Languages like Abyssal and Baatezu would have evolved from that evil branch of the Cosmic family . Looking at that language table Gray pointed out made me think of something else - Why do Unther and Mulhorand have seperate languages, when they are considered one ethnic group (Mulan)? They lived with the Imaskari for thousands of years, and their language (along with Imaskar) should have become one. At least my history of the Steppes explains some of that, but that is non-canon for the most part (I have it where the two groups were kept seperate, and the Egyptian-types were used as Houshold slaves, while the Babylonian ones were used on their plantations further away). Also, the Tuigan language derived from the Imaskari one (as per the Horde boxed set), and they are calling it Roushoum in the FRCS; Solon was a surviving city of Imaskar and spoke Devic, so are those the same language or what? :confused: |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:35 AM | I really do not think that Draconic would have anything in common with Seldruin. I agree with Gray, on the fact that I think it's something more like the Elven equivalent of Celestial. Both might contain a few bits of the Words of Creation, perhaps, but your original statement ("Draconic influence") implied just that - draconic influence, not shared cognates. Whether the dark elves came from Threnody or some other place, It is only logical to assume that the dark elves would have had a separate language from the sun and moon elves that came from Tintageer. I do like the idea that they (at least, in part) came from Threnody. However, I also like to think that other Elves fled from Faerie (from realms other than Tintageer) to Abeir-Toril, too, and that they may have included some Dark Elves among them, perhaps. Ah, if only geeks were rich enough for WotC to really make profitable printing such lore in depth. |
| Zanan05-25-07, 11:43 AM | @ Gray Richardson ... thanks for that bit of info. Threnody ... well, it is one of the few if not the only place that mentions dark elves outside FR / GH cosmology. Likewise, they might have hailed from Greyhawk/Oerth or the like. @ MarkusTay ... that would also mean that any decent summoner or demonologist would change his language over time. Hardly likely for an entire race. And, as has been pointed out before, Lolth's days as a demon, or rather tanar'ri, were apparently quite limited and unless I am mistaken, her influence on the FR started only afterwards. Obviously, there is no reason to believe that the language of a deity has any effect on the racial language as a hole either. |
| Lord Karsus05-25-07, 12:02 PM | -Just like there are other Elves across the multiverse, there are also other Drow/Dark Elves across the multiverse. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 12:06 PM | If you ask me, all Elven races were originally made on the Outer Planes through sheer belief (the power of Corellon & Co.), and then they were distributed throughout the multiverse. That being said.. Obviously, there is no reason to believe that the language of a deity has any effect on the racial language as a hole either. That depends. I am certain the deity's racial language would be reflected, at least somewhat, in the languages spoken by their clergy. (Lots of precedence for this.) And thus, the interaction between clergy and and the rest of the culture would entirely determine how much the language would change. Some might consider the language to be too holy for the laymen to learn (the way many Egyptian priests felt). Others might consider it appropriate for ALL to speak the true language, in order to be pure. And of course, these and other stances would be only as successful as was appropriate for the power of the clergy over the culture at large. |
| MarkusTay6305-25-07, 12:22 PM | In the case of created races, it makes FAR MORE sense that the languages were originally related to that of their gods. If they were created whole, able to speak, where did the deity come up with said creature's language? In fact, it maight have been one and the same, and then the mortal tongue immediately began to devolve do to the influences of the 'material' world. Human languages, and that of any other naturally evolving race (Creator races?), would be the only ones to NOT have any deific influences (early on). I have it where the Elves evolved in Fäerie, Dan. They are the mortal children of the immortal Fey. The further away from Fäerie they get, both physically and spiritually, the less 'Fey-like' they become, and the more time effects them. Thats why Drow don't live so long... they are the furthest removed from the 'Feyan Ideal'. ;) I picture the Great Wheel as being some sort of 'Cosmic Laboratory' in the beginning (like the Well World or Niven's Ringworld), and all the different groups of gods were given a section (plane/layer) to work with, and to create the 'perfect race'. That is why many of the pantheons of the created races are multi-spheric - they settled down in their own workspace. After creation, the wheel was pretty much just left up for grabs, and lots of creatures moved right in. Each world has its own private cosmology, but the wheel sits above all else, because it is technically the first 'construct'. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 12:31 PM | I have it where the Elves evolved in Fäerie, Dan. They are the mortal children of the immortal Fey. The further away from Fäerie they get, both physically and spiritually, the less 'Fey-like' they become, and the more time effects them. Thats why Drow don't live so long... they are the furthest removed from the 'Feyan Ideal'. So the Elves of the Norse pantheon (those living in Vanaheim, Arborea, in the Great Wheel) are unrelated entirely to these Elves, or something else? |
| MarkusTay6305-25-07, 04:12 PM | In my pre-history, the Vanir were the pre-cursors to modern Moon Elves. In fact, Frey's last name was Larethian. His son Corellon took over the tribe after he and his father Njord had to go live with the Aesir. ;) Vanaheim was a realm to the far north in Faärie, and it's fierce seamen were notorious for raiding Tintageer and other Elven settlements (Sharalio Moonflower was of the Vanir). :D Later, after the fall of Tintageer (the seat of the Elven High King), most other Elven people not loyal to Titania left Fäerie as well, and the Aesir moved Vanaheim off that plane as a favor to their friends Frey, Freya, and Njord. This all occurred about 5000 years AFTER most Elves split from Titania's court. The ones that remained loyal to Fäerie are known as Ælves (or Arak), and the Seelie are called Shee, and the Unseelie (who followed Titania's evil sister) are called Sith (that last part from 2e The Shadow Rift). And BTW, the Dark Elves were Seelie when they left Fäerie. Only the monstrous looking ones were Unseelie (goblinoids). Also, if you can follow all that, then you know that Corellon started out an immortal, but not a god. I also have the realm of Fäerie originating on Toril some 50,000 years ago, to reconcile the fact that the Fey are one of the Creator races (I don't particularly like that, but at least it fits). For more on that, check my post HERE. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12375848&postcount=12) And just in case anyone's confused, 98% of that is NOT canon. |
| boards05-25-07, 07:30 PM | I do like the idea that Flves are Fey that have become mortal due to living on the Material Plane. On languages I have it that mortal races can not speak the pure languages of the Gods as they don't have the physical capability to make the correct sounds. The Celestial, Infernal, Divine etc languages that sages speak is a debased form fitted to their capabilities. |
| Lord Karsus05-25-07, 10:50 PM | On languages I have it that mortal races can not speak the pure languages of the Gods as they don't have the physical capability to make the correct sounds. The Celestial, Infernal, Divine etc languages that sages speak is a debased form fitted to their capabilities. -Who's to say that these deities actually speak, to begin with? ;) |
| Shiftkitty05-26-07, 05:55 PM | I read the title of this thread and this thought came to mind: A drow and a surface elf would even talk to each other? The ka-TWANG of a bow or crossbow is the same in any language... (My drow rarely waste time with talking. Messages to enemies are best sent carved into the dead flesh of prisoners.) Okay, now I'll go back and read the rest of the posts, because I rarely give language much though in my campaign unless you've travelled very far from home. Generally, there's always been some sort of magical translation device, but I did have one when the party unexpectedly lost it. |
| Zanan05-26-07, 06:14 PM | And just in case anyone's confused, 98% of that is NOT canon. Good that you mention this. I'd hazard a guess that these 2% canon lore you have up there consists of two words: dark elves. ;) |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 06:26 PM | 2% is canon.. And 50% of that is only canon because no one ever said it wasn't. ;) Mind you, I -like- the mythology Markus was talking about... But I would never put it in any sort of publication. I prefer to have a lot of canonicity on which to base my stories. |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 08:28 PM | I read the title of this thread and this thought came to mind: A drow and a surface elf would even talk to each other? The ka-TWANG of a bow or crossbow is the same in any language... (My drow rarely waste time with talking. Messages to enemies are best sent carved into the dead flesh of prisoners.) -Not all Drow are evil, and would attack an Elf on sight. What's that stupid number? 22% of Drow don't worship Lolth, and therefore have the potential to be good. Also, Drow are devious creatures. Get one cornered, and I am sure it'll say all sorts of things to try to save it's life. |
| Zanan05-27-07, 04:45 AM | -Not all Drow are evil, and would attack an Elf on sight. What's that stupid number? 22% of Drow don't worship Lolth, and therefore have the potential to be good. Also, Drow are devious creatures. Get one cornered, and I am sure it'll say all sorts of things to try to save it's life. I would hazard a guess that even those not worshipping Lolth ... or rather those worshipping Eilistraee are not necessarily all good. It is most likely the case that most good drow worship Eilistraee, but from what I gather about the Eilistraeens (see the Liriel books, the WotSQ and Lady Penitent series), they mostly act more like CN. Just my humble impression, of course. As for not all drow attacking an elf on sight, that might be true. Obviously, in those circumstances, it is very well possible that the elf will attack the drow on sight first though. ;) |
| Another Gnome05-27-07, 08:11 AM | It is most likely the case that most good drow worship Eilistraee, but from what I gather about the Eilistraeens (see the Liriel books, the WotSQ and Lady Penitent series), they mostly act more like CN. Just my humble impression, of course. Qilué: "So. You went and slit his throat." Priestess: "The male's hand brushed my thigh, mistress." Qilué: "Because you were lifting him off the floor." Priestess: "Technically, yes, but that is not the..." Qilué: "And he was unconscious at the time." Priestess: "Well, excuse me! I used to be a Lolthite, I have better things to do than to see if a lowly male is conscious or not when applying healing to his worthless carcass!" Qilué: "Very well. But do try to avoid killing your patients in the future, would you? Thrice already in a single month is a bit much, and it can be such bad publicity if the word gets out." Priestess: "But..." Qilué: "No, dear, you cannot simply have the witnesses assassinated either." Priestess: "Fine, fine, have it your way then..." |
| MarkusTay6305-27-07, 10:32 AM | Good that you mention this. I'd hazard a guess that these 2% canon lore you have up there consists of two words: dark elves. ;) Tintageer, Titania, Corellon, Frey, Vanaheim - all things from canon sources. I just glued them all together, so to speak. I did make one HUGE mistake there... Durothil was king of the Daoine Shea (Gold Elves) and ruled from Tintageer, the seat of Gold Elven Power. It was Sharlario Moonflower who was from the north (Vanaheim). That was why I placed him as a visiting Vanir, the novel even calls him a pirate! Everything but the first sentence in the fifth paragraph is also canon - but from a Ravenloft source. Although my pre-history myths are merely that - primordial stories that may or may not be true, they are all based on things both from D&D (ALL sources) and my own intimate knowledge of folklore (years of personal study, plus college theology and mythology background). Corellon was born an immortal Fey, the child of a mysterious being known only as Danu. He had a twin brother, but the twins had seperate fathers. Corellon's was Frey Larethian, and Gru'maas (forget his real name, my notes are all gone at the moment) was the son of Mælkith, Lord of the Svartalfen. I chose this route for my myths because the religious/cultural myths surrounding twins fighting (good vs. evil) is popular, as can be seen in Cain and Able, Romulus and Remus, etc... I think there was even a famous pair in Dragonlance. I even have some linguistics worked out for all of this. Gru is ancient high Elven (Seldruin?) for "wild" Gach is the ancient Elven term for tribe (if spelled Gru-a'gach, the a' signifies a clan). Maas is ancient High Elven for "spirit" (related to the latin word Mass, which means 'spiritual gathering' - Latin is another ancient language with a couple of words from the original 'cosmic music' ;)). So Gru-gach means mean "wild tribe", and Gru'maas means "Wild Spirit", a nickname given Corellon's feral, confrontational brother. Gru'maas left Titania's court after she declared his followers 'Unseelie' (evil Fey), and Corellon foreswore allegiance to Titania as well, in honor of his brother. There's actually a lot more to it then that, and other forces were involved, but thats the quick version. They founded the city of Tintageer, and at first the two brothers ruled their city jointly. The other ten Ælven kings came to Tintageer as well, meeting every so often, and the kings formed the Council of Twelve, a tradition that survives to this day in Evermeet. When Corellon was named High King, he abdicated his position as King of the Daoine Shea, claiming himself the King of ALL Ælves, and one of his descendents took over (as the First King Durothil). Anyway, following the founding of Tintageer (around -30,000), the brothers had a falling out, and Gru'maas led his people out of Fäerie. Corellon stayed behind to lead the remaining 11 tribes of Aelves, but both brothers were already at least of demi-god status by that time. Within a thousand years they ascended, and Corellon left and created the realm of Aryvandar, along with other Ascended Ælves. And the rest, as they say, is history. :D This is only the Elvish portion of my myths, called The Tablets of Destiny (not to be confused with the Tablet of destinies, which involved Tiamet). My myths go back much further into Fäerie lore, and those will be handled by a Centaur scholar named Tiberius. Someday, if I get my computer running again, I hope to finish all of that. In the mean time, I just want to repeat that 99% of the above is my own creation - myths based on ALL Fey and Elven lore, not just D&D. If you use them in your game, they are not to be considered factual, just a set of fables. In fact, both the Seldarine and Orcish Pantheon would consider these myths heresies, and would go out of their way to obliterate them. The anti-Seldarine are not too thrilled with them either, because Auraushnee winds up related to both gru'maas and Corellon, and is in fact a daughter of the Queen of Air and Darkness (going by the name of Lilith back then). So have fun with it, but remember, it's definately NOT canon. ;) |
| Shiftkitty05-27-07, 11:46 AM | Not all drow are definitively evil, I agree, but I do excercise the option to play elves as a bit racist, even amongst themselves. Some surface elf nations get along, but usually it's only because it's necessary at the time. Individuals may behave differently, but the individual nations as a whole tend to believe that they are the descendents of "true" elves and all others are corruptions to some degree. The one thing that all of the surface elves in my campaign agree on is that the drow are an abomination to the elven gods (and the males are spider-kissing mama's boys*). Even if a refugee a la Drizz't shows up, the general consensus is that he's putting on an act, albeit a lengthy, elaborate one. In regards to language, I noticed that in my campaign I tend to follow the cultural patterns of the human race. While I don't worry too much about languages, I did notice that I have the dwarves with more words for stone and rocks than they do for magic and trees, while the surface elves follow suit with more words for the important factors in their environments. However, the less intelligent beings don't necessarily obey. For example, Gnolls in my campaign have only one word for the concept of 'prisoner, 'slave', captive', etc.; FOOD! *This is an extension of their racism against the drow. Not all drow worship Lolth, or venerate spiders, but it's the equivalent of saying that all Jews are money-grubbing bankers. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 01:26 PM | It is most likely the case that most good drow worship Eilistraee, but from what I gather about the Eilistraeens (see the Liriel books, the WotSQ and Lady Penitent series), they mostly act more like CN. Just my humble impression, of course. Going by solely by novels, though, up until a few years ago, we would have thought CG Rangers were pretty prevalent, too. ;) |
| boards05-27-07, 08:16 PM | Tintageer, Titania, Corellon, Frey, Vanaheim - all things from canon sources. Seeing as how you have brought the Vanaheim into this, do the elves of FR have much similarities to Nordic Elves ( I really know very little about them)? |
| Zanan05-28-07, 07:48 AM | Going by solely by novels, though, up until a few years ago, we would have thought CG Rangers were pretty prevalent, too. ;) I haven't come across a single ranger of Eilistraee so far. (Or I forgot him/her ... ) |
| The Ubbergeek05-28-07, 01:57 PM | of course, neutral drow are surely in bigger numbers than good drow, being the logical conclusion that since the common drow societies are evil, well... (make one wonder how is it in Greyhawk. there is no Eilistraee there, but is there canon words on good drow and their communauties? or neutral ones?) |
| Zanan05-29-07, 03:57 AM | of course, neutral drow are surely in bigger numbers than good drow, being the logical conclusion that since the common drow societies are evil, well... (make one wonder how is it in Greyhawk. there is no Eilistraee there, but is there canon words on good drow and their communauties? or neutral ones?) You see, that's the problem with the Greyhawk drow. Essentially, they always have been bloodthirsty killers at the fingertips of their Spider Queen. Nigh to no history or background. And, I'm afraid, the new TDotUD do not help much here either. No word on neutral or good drow on Greyhawk. |
| Faraer05-29-07, 11:38 AM | Essentially, they always have been bloodthirsty killers at the fingertips of their Spider Queen.Again, in the World of Greyhawk Lolth is merely the most prevalent of many demon lords the dark elves vacillate their worship to.No word on neutral or good drow on Greyhawk.In fact, they're mentioned in D3. |
| Zanan05-31-07, 07:28 AM | Again, in the World of Greyhawk Lolth is merely the most prevalent of many demon lords the dark elves vacillate their worship to.In fact, they're mentioned in D3. Demon Lords are Demon Lords, Lolth is one only by title, of course - she's a deity, the rest are not. Just to make that clear for any onlooker. Of course, according to Dragon 298 and DotUD, they do indeed worship other Greyhawk deities (in contradiction to the PHB, of course (re: racial deities and clerics), but nevermind. That last remark of mine was with regard to DotUD. |
| Faraer05-31-07, 01:20 PM | Yeah, but only after 2nd edition AD&D adopted a yes/no distinction between gods and non-gods, which I don't think fits the World of Greyhawk -- with its quasi-deities, hero-deities, personages, and devil- and demon-worshipping cults -- at all well. |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 01:29 PM | And even 2E AD&D wasn't always precise as to the exact differences between deities and non-deific planar lords - or even who was who! (Asmodeus being a Lord of the Nine and also very later on statted as a Greater God.) |
| Zanan05-31-07, 06:20 PM | Well, it is just fine as it is now. :D |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 09:37 PM | Fine if your name is Zanan. ;) |
| NobodyNoOne06-25-07, 10:15 AM | Do they both use the same script, and alphabet ? |
| Lord Karsus06-25-07, 11:20 AM | Do they both use the same script, and alphabet ? -Both are different, but distinctly Elven. |
| JaiaDrottsingr06-25-07, 07:50 PM | -Both are different, but distinctly Elven. I think I once read that if you speak Elvish, you may know a word or two, Gnommish, more so, Dwarven, slighty. Undercommon is built upon a large collaboration of languages, such as Drow, Elvish, Dwarven, Gnommish, Abyssal and their Underdark variants thereof. It's much like English. Say you speak only English. You glance at a foreign textbook and recognize "Garage", "Ballet", and so forth. This is the Norman (and Arthurian) descended piece of English. You look at another to see, "Kindergarten" and "Haus". Germanic. "Hippos": Celtic. "Equine": Latin. All these hithertos and whyfores lead you to one thing. English was not independently formed. Same with Common, Undercommon, and, yes, Drow. |
| Lord Karsus06-26-07, 12:44 AM | I think I once read that if you speak Elvish, you may know a word or two, Gnommish, more so, Dwarven, slighty. Undercommon is built upon a large collaboration of languages, such as Drow, Elvish, Dwarven, Gnommish, Abyssal and their Underdark variants thereof. It's much like English. -It says something like that in Drow of the Underdark. I was just reading that the other day. I am going by memory here, but it says something like 'Drowic' is based on Undercommon, Common and Elven, and that anyone who speaks and/or reads any of those three languages has a 15% chance of understanding any given word in the tongue of the Drow. -As for knowing Elven by speaking Dwarven, or Gnomish...That would not work. The languages aren't even based on the same alphabet (Espruar and Dethek), and there are no etymological similarities anywhere, frankly. |
| Sixtensson07-08-07, 08:27 PM | Etruscan scripts have been found in Greek islands and pottery along Asia Minor/Turkey. They're part of the Indo-Euro-IRANIAN branch of languages. And Latin DID borrow some actual vocabulary from Etruscan, if not the actual grammatical structure. So yes, they are related. *Wrote a paper on Etruscan and Roman influences on each other, and the Rome vs. Veii conflicts recently.* First and foremost: borrowing vocabulary doesn't make any languages related to each other. A few hundred loanwords from any given language to another is a only a small fraction of the whole language, and doesn't really count as relation. Swedish, for example, has borrowed numerous words from Finnish, yet no linguist worth his paycheck would even think about calling them related. The grammar and basic structures of the two are far too different to be perceived as family, as with Etruscan and Latin. Second: The origin and ancestry of the Etruscan language is very, very disputed. Even though there are some theories and theorists placing Etruscan among the Indo-European languages (and not specifically in the Indo-Euro-Iranian family, mind you), they are by far outnumbered by linguists claiming that the Etruscan language is unrelated to any Indo-European languages, instead coming from a separate source. |
| Passivearmada07-08-07, 09:53 PM | is just normal sign language a language you can learn in d&d? an NPC is to be resurrected, but a demon tampers with it, so he comes back mute. i want him to be able to communicate, but the drow sign language feels kinda... menacing, i guess. thanks |
| Zanan07-09-07, 04:19 AM | is just normal sign language a language you can learn in d&d? an NPC is to be resurrected, but a demon tampers with it, so he comes back mute. i want him to be able to communicate, but the drow sign language feels kinda... menacing, i guess. thanks To learn drow sign language you not only need a drow (et al) who knows it to train you and, of course, others to understand it. Drow Sign Language is not the Sign Language that is used by mute people all over the (real) world. For any non-drow it is probably almost (as in: ALMOST) as hard to find someone teaching you as it would be with Druidic. So as a DM I would place quite a few restriction on acquiring this and other certain languages. By RAW though, spending 1 or 2 skill points may do the trick - leaving any other background aside. |
| Passivearmada07-09-07, 01:18 PM | i was planning (after all this is an NPC) that he returns to his hometown with his wife, because he's been gone for about a year (he died in the 2nd encounter, but is resurrected several encounters later- hes been with the PCs several years before the campaign started). I think I could get away with "it appears that he has learned a language spoken through the hands, and his wife, Sarah, translates for you." but i think the PCs are going to want to learn this language, because they are a smart bunch, and would find it useful for ambush tactics. and, they'd like to understand their mute buddy (who is a gnome bard, so he plays with his lute in his spare time). Um.... there hometown is right near the capitol of the northern section of the continent, so they might be able to find a guy there. my world isn't nearly as big as Faerun (do you pronounce that like Fay-roon or Fair-un), and this sub-capitol is home of about 20,000, so i think they have a decent shot. what do you guys think? |
| Lord Karsus07-09-07, 08:01 PM | (do you pronounce that like Fay-roon or Fair-un) -It's pronounced "Fay-Roon". |
| Passivearmada07-10-07, 05:09 PM | i thought so, but it was in some game, or so,ething, they said Fair-un. thanks LK. |
| Lord Karsus07-10-07, 05:43 PM | i thought so, but it was in some game, or so,ething, they said Fair-un. thanks LK. -I think in one of the FR video games they pronounced it differently. |
| Passivearmada07-10-07, 09:24 PM | demon stone is the only FR game ive actually gotten through. baldurs gate took up too much of my time, and NWN 1 bored me. NWN2 is way out of league with my graphics card, so playing that has been delayed, though i do like it a lot. demon stone is short, fast-paced, and you can play as drizzt in one level! right now, im just trying not to become a slave to WotC, between the d&d, video games, and books (im a major drizzt fan if u cant tell). so ive quit video games for awhile. |
| DrowBattlemind07-11-07, 08:57 PM | If you ask me, all Elven races were originally made on the Outer Planes through sheer belief (the power of Corellon & Co.), and then they were distributed throughout the multiverse. 1st Ed. AD&D Deities & Demigods Cyclopedia, 1st printing, page 106, "Elves, Corellon Larethian": "Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle." (referring to driving Lolth from the Seldarine pantheon.) |
| Lord Karsus07-11-07, 09:14 PM | 1st Ed. AD&D Deities & Demigods Cyclopedia, 1st printing, page 106, "Elves, Corellon Larethian": "Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle." (referring to driving Lolth from the Seldarine pantheon.) -Incorrect. The Elven creation myth that you are referencing refers to a battle between Corellon Larethian and Grummsh. |
| Gray Richardson07-11-07, 10:14 PM | To be fair, Lolth was involved in the battle. According to the myth, Lolth was trying to engineer things so that Corellon would be killed by Gruumsh. She was hoping to takeover following his death. It was only by the grace of Sehanine Moonbow that Corellon was saved. And DrowBattlemind is 100% correct in that the quote he is referencing from Deities & Demigods p. 106 does indeed refer to Lolth. The full text is: "The god is also mighty in battle, and is said to have personally banished such demons as Lolth from the sunlit Upperworld. Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle." So you are both right! ;) |
| Zanan07-12-07, 04:05 AM | To be fair, Lolth was involved in the battle. According to the myth, Lolth was trying to engineer things so that Corellon would be killed by Gruumsh. She was hoping to takeover following his death. It was only by the grace of Sehanine Moonbow that Corellon was saved. And DrowBattlemind is 100% correct in that the quote he is referencing from Deities & Demigods p. 106 does indeed refer to Lolth. The full text is: "The god is also mighty in battle, and is said to have personally banished such demons as Lolth from the sunlit Upperworld. Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle." So you are both right! ;) That battle was minutely detailed in Evermeet, the novel by Elaine Cunningham. The problem here is that you got a mixture of Core lore and FR lore (and one might (but I won't) argue that much of Core lore on Lolth is actually a reflection of what has been written of her in FR material). Her FR history is well known and has been retold in Cormanthyr, Evermeet, Demihuman Deities and more recently, Lost Empire of Faerûn. Obviously, D&D is wrong in claiming that he banished such "demons" as Lolth, as in our context (FR boards et al), he turned Araushnee into a demon (for a short time) and sent her to the Abyss. She reclaimed her goodhood there pretty fast (mirror image of that has been recounted in e.g. Fiendish Codex I for the Core worlds), so that "curse of turning her into a tanar'ri" was only of temporary power. Anyway, the more important line is, of course, that "elven lore states" etc.. I wonder what "drow lore states" :D. Essentially, it is important to note differences in the relevant lorebooks, especially with such crossovers like Lolth. We have nigh to no knowledge about the Core Lolth's history, only a few facts post-banishment to dwell upon. So trying to assemble a puzzle that has never been finished in the first place might prove to be somewhat difficult. |
| DrowBattlemind07-12-07, 09:02 AM | Danke, G.R. |
| Zanan07-12-07, 09:42 AM | Danke, G.R. Just in case ... you gathered that Deities & Demigods spoke of the Core Lolth, not the FR one, right?! |
| Suin Bahhar07-12-07, 09:47 AM | Is there a relationship between Sylvan and Seldruin, or would Sylvan more resemble Druidic language? I think these would be all closely resemble eachother as magical woodland creatures, elves and druids tend to stick close to eachother. |
| Gray Richardson07-13-07, 01:35 AM | That is a very good question, but one which I think the answer to is no. My gut feeling is that there is no or little relation between Seldruin and Sylvan. With one caveat which I will mention below. Sylvan is the language of the Fey. More specifically, it is (most likely) the modern version of this language. There is probably also an ancient version of the Sylvan tongue that was once spoken by the Fey creator race some 30,000 years ago, or more. Seldruin is an ancient elven language. It is the language of High Magic. It is a liturgical language used presumably only in religious rituals, elven religious literature, and in magical rites. I am not even sure if any elf ever spoke the language in their daily life. It is possible that Seldruin is some sort of celestial language of the Seldarine, and may have always been a secondary, religious language used for the practice of magic. So that is a very big question if Seldruin was ever a natural language spoken by elves. If it was, then it would be a long dead version of the elven tongue, something akin to the way that Latin and modern French are related. I am not sure if they were speaking Seldruin at the time that the elves first came to Toril (over 25,000 years ago) or if Seldruin was still a long dead and ancient tongue, even for them. Now the Sylvan tongue of the Fey, has been around in Faerûn in some version since the dawn of the Fey in this world. Remember the Fey are native to Toril, they have always been on Toril. The elves however, are interlopers. They came from another world. So the Seldruin tongue and the Sylvan language should (in theory) have evolved separately on different worlds with no interaction. Now here is that caveat I mentioned: The sun and moon elves came to Toril from some place called Faerie. Whether this was another prime material world in another crystal sphere, or whether they came from the Plane of Faerie that is attached to Faerûn in some fashion, the sun and moon elves came from an island nation named Tintageer located on this Faerie world or Plane. Now, we don't know that the elves were native to Faerie, any more than they were native to Faerûn. They could have migrated to Faerie from some prior elven homeworld. They might have been survivors from the elven world of Threnody where Kiaransalee wiped out the native elven population by turning them all undead in some sort of zombie apocalypse. They might have been survivors from Ortho, another world, where the lawful Harmonium faction quietly slew the entire elven population in order to purge their lawful world of the elves' chaotic natures. (The timing is a little off for Ortho, though, whose holocaust appears to have happened only a few centuries ago, unless the elven refugees fled through time). However it was that they came to Faerie, it is possible that the Sylvan tongue spoken in this Faerie world had some influence on whatever version of elven was current at the time. So it is conceivable that ancient elven absorbed some sylvan loan words, expressions, or even some grammar constructions depending on how close they comingled with the Faerie folk. Of course, they have always been tight with the fey, so I guess it is also conceivable that the Syvlan language and the Elven tongue may have had some degree of influence upon each other to the present day. Bottom line is that my gut says they are two completely different languages with little or no common vocabulary or grammar. But I cannot rule out the slight possibility of some linguistic comingling at one or more points in the last 30,000 years. |
| DrowBattlemind07-13-07, 12:05 PM | Just in case ... you gathered that Deities & Demigods spoke of the Core Lolth, not the FR one, right?! At the time of the first edition, first printing Deities & Demigods, there was no 'Core Lolth' / 'FR Lolth' dichotomy which you seem to be so set upon. That appears (to me, anyway) to be mere retconning on the part of post 2nd ed novel writers (not Ed Greenwood), like the (ill-thought out) 'Great Tree', something else Mr. Greenwood had nothing to do with. IIRC, the whole 'Auraushnee' origin of Lolth was also someone elses, as I don't recall that being mentioned in the original Drow of the Underdark. (If it was, please post it here, as I'm presently missing my copy of the 2nd ed DotU, since I loaned it out to a friend who moved before he could return it.) And there is no "Forgotten Realms Lolth" and "Core Lolth". Lolth is Lolth! You're not going to be able to travel to the Demonweb pits and see "Forgotten Realms Lolth" sitting down and having tea with "Core Lolth", "Greyhawk Lolth", and "D20 Modern Urban Arcana Lolth", unless She totally flips out and breaks down into Multiple Personality Disorder. However, you seem to be missing my point, which was the official origin of the elves, in reply to GothicDan's post. |
| Lord Karsus07-13-07, 11:14 PM | And there is no "Forgotten Realms Lolth" and "Core Lolth". Lolth is Lolth! -With the recent seperation of cosmologies, this is no longer true. Now, the FR Lolth, and the GH LOlth are two seperate entities. Silly, I know... |
| DrowBattlemind07-14-07, 12:20 AM | Especially since Ed Greenwood himself disagrees with the whole "Great Tree" cosmology nonsense. Personally, in our games, we've ignored the 3rd ed retcon and kept the Realms firmly in the Great Wheel planar set-up. IMHO, whoever came up with that bit of poppycock should be sacked. Literally. Looted and pillaged, as well. |
| Zanan07-14-07, 04:49 AM | At the time of the first edition, first printing Deities & Demigods, there was no 'Core Lolth' / 'FR Lolth' dichotomy which you seem to be so set upon. That appears (to me, anyway) to be mere retconning on the part of post 2nd ed novel writers (not Ed Greenwood), like the (ill-thought out) 'Great Tree', something else Mr. Greenwood had nothing to do with. IIRC, the whole 'Auraushnee' origin of Lolth was also someone elses, as I don't recall that being mentioned in the original Drow of the Underdark. (If it was, please post it here, as I'm presently missing my copy of the 2nd ed DotU, since I loaned it out to a friend who moved before he could return it.) And there is no "Forgotten Realms Lolth" and "Core Lolth". Lolth is Lolth! You're not going to be able to travel to the Demonweb pits and see "Forgotten Realms Lolth" sitting down and having tea with "Core Lolth", "Greyhawk Lolth", and "D20 Modern Urban Arcana Lolth", unless She totally flips out and breaks down into Multiple Personality Disorder. However, you seem to be missing my point, which was the official origin of the elves, in reply to GothicDan's post. One step after another. Lolth as Demon Queen was created for Greyhawk, no doubt about that. Once the FR arrived, she was adopted (as many other deities) to the Realms' pantheon. While in AD&D we do had a connected cosmology, the FR one soon took of fand became something special. Not just in terms of 200 new or adopted deities, but also with regard to existing ones. There is a story about Lolth and Corellon in The Complete Elven Handbook (1992), more or less excluding Araushnee's involvement in the Gruumsh affair. (While we are at it, the book also says something about the creation of the Elves, not those of the FR, but anyway.) Demihuman Deities took that up and - with Evermeet - started to create (as with hundreds of other FR deities) a seperate, more detailed FR history of the deities. Hence, Araushnee came about and was introduced by none other than Eric L. Boyd (or someone of alike authority). At that point, the FR Lolth became separated from the Core one, not least because the FR version grew immensely in power. Whether Planescapers and Great Wheel-all-cosmologies-are-connected loyalists liked it or not. It even says so in the introduction of the F&A series: What happens in other settings' cosmologies has no influence on deities within the Realms, unless a deity is slain on its home soil. 3E took that up, only that they used the FR Lolth's stats et al for the Core one too. After the War of the Spider Queen, in which the FR Lolth took the FR Demonwebs out of the "FR Abyss", the FR Lolth is most definitely no longer the Core Lolth, who still lives in the "Core Abyss". Coming to think of it, this might be the start of killing off the FR Lolth altogether, as she could then be slain on her home soil in that sava game she plays with Eilistraee, who could simply walk over into the seperate FR Demonwebs. As dire a thought that may be. As for the Great Tree "nonsense" argument ... I recently looked up the Yggdrasil tree of the Core cosmology and couldn't help but smile. Generally, what has been, has been. I look at the Forgotten Realms as a complete setting, with its own deities and Abyss and what have you. This world may or may not be connected through whatever channels to other settings that may of may not have deities that are namesakes. I use the Fiendish Codices for reference when I play with fiends or fiend lords, no problem. But just as reference. What happens in Core Greyhawk worlds or Eberron or what have you, places that might have namesake deities is of no relevance ... or, let's put it in other words: has as much influence on the Realms as the fate of the original REal Word Osiris, Set, or Loviatar. That is: nothing. |
| DrowBattlemind07-14-07, 10:22 AM | Hence, Araushnee came about and was introduced by none other than Eric L. Boyd Who apparently didn't consult Mr. Greenwood. It reminds me of Sam Kinison's rant about televangelist scams: (as Jesus) "Where the heck in this book did I say 'Take money from the elderly and build a WATER SLIDE'?!?" As for the Great Tree "nonsense" argument ... I recently looked up the Yggdrasil tree of the Core cosmology and couldn't help but smile. As a worshiper of the Old Gods (I'm Asatru), I see where they swiped it from, but it still smacks of ret-con, and doesn't fit at all with Ed's published statements. Again, it's a matter of other authors coming in and making crap up straight out of left field. Change for change's sake. |
| Zanan07-14-07, 05:06 PM | Who apparently didn't consult Mr. Greenwood. It reminds me of Sam Kinison's rant about televangelist scams: (as Jesus) "Where the heck in this book did I say 'Take money from the elderly and build a WATER SLIDE'?!?" In what respect? About two hundred deities got introduced with the F&A series, all detailed with hsitory and background. No reason to keep Lolth and all the rest of the also-Core-deities strictly Greyhawkian. Then again, we can ask him, no problem. |
| DrowBattlemind07-14-07, 07:12 PM | No reason to keep Lolth and all the rest of the also-Core-deities strictly Greyhawkian. I never said we should. Where is this "Core/ Greyhawkian" hatred coming from? Is it some falsely-perceived "anti-Realms" thing? All I've ever said is that I disliked the huge amount of ret-conning that the WotC staff has done to the Realms. Back in the bad old days of 2nd ed, other than a tiny handful of Greyhawk products, all we had was FR products. Even if we didn't play in the realms, we often had to adapt Realms products to whatever campaign we were playing in. As a result, I quickly grew a huge amount of respect for Ed Greenwood. I scoured back issues of Dragon to read his articles on the Realms. The man had/has some great stuff in his campaign! However... this crap ain't it! The man has literally CRATES of unpublished Realms lore in his garage at home! There's no need for a bunch of bloody hacks to come in and start making stuff up out of whole cloth, placing Realms-specific names and places in it, and calling it Forgotten Realms supplemental material. *warning, rant ahead* Next thing you know Kara-Tur will move from the East of Faerun to the far west and will change to an 'old west' setting since WotC handed the oriental Adventures thing to the Lot5R people... :rant: EDIT: There's a big difference between 'Events', which move the setting/timeline forward (Time of Troubles, the Great Thundering, etc.), and blatant rewriting of history. It's the history rewrites that hack me off. |
| Zanan07-15-07, 09:03 AM | Rightio ... just in case ... as I found out today, it was very likely Ed Greenwood who invented Araushnee for the Realms - 1991 in The Drow of the Underdark. Both Elaine Cunningham and Eric L. Boyd took that up in Evermeet and Demihuman Deities respectively. There is, BTW, no Greyhawk hatred hereabouts. But there is a strong notion that not everything Greyhawkian / "Core" is or has to be used with the Forgotten Realms - or, for that matter, vice versa. The drow as well as the pantheons are different here and there, much like with Eberron. So if DotUD or that Dragon 298 tells us some lore about the Greyhawk, fair enough. People should just not happen by and want to see this implanted in the FR where the story, theme and culture is different. |
| DrowBattlemind07-15-07, 10:09 AM | Where and when did this become an attack on Lolth? I simply stated that A), the Elves came from Corellon's blood and B) Ed himself didn't come up with the Great Tree garbage. As for Lolth, I think that they ARE the same being. Different dogmas on different worlds, but the same being. But different dogmas doesn't mean that they're given by different beings. She IS Chaotic Evil, after all, she doesn't have to be consistant! As for the Aurashnee, again, not what I remember, but as someone else posted to one of these debates we two seem to get tangled in, Ed himself said that his contract concerning the original (2nd Ed) DotU demanded that he (and I quote) "Realmsify" the Drow and their backstory. Until that point, there was no such dichotomy in Ed's mind. That was an editor's insistance, not Ed's. If I can find the link, I'll re-post it. |
| Zanan07-16-07, 03:21 AM | Drowmind ... as I said, you have that tree in the Core world too, so no need to rant on the FR treeshape ... which is a visualization and nothing more - whomever came up with it. People jumping through the FR Planes do not walk that tree or suffer strange things like they did in AD&D. Then again, if people want to have that (dunno whether 3E actually used these problems) wheel, no-one is hindering them - at their own table that is. As for Ed being asked to Realmsify the drow: better him as the Archwizard of all things Realms than having pseudo-drow like those of Eberron, who are far less core drow than any others so far. |
| MarkusTay6307-16-07, 04:54 AM | I can't believe this thread is still going. :rolleyes: I did get one tiny little thing out of all of this - it made me think about Corellon turning Lotha (I'm using her Zakharan name this week) into a Ta'narri, and about a thread awhile ago where two different sources made seperate claims to where that word/name comes from. I answered in that thread that I thought that it actually was two seperate words from seperate laguages that sounded alike but were slightly different- Ta'narri is Abyssal for "Most Foul", and Tanar'ri is Elven for "Great Betrayer" Anyhow, in retrospect I decided that it isn't just a coincidence, they actually started out the same word. What if all the Demons Lords are actually gods that have been 'cast-out' of their pantheons? :eek: It could be a new 'planar rule', that when a pantheon has declared you a betrayer, the head of the group is able to cast them out and they are changed, becoming a Demon Lord. It would even work in the Judao-Christian religion. ;) In cases like Loki or Abbathor, those gods still maintain ties to their pantheons, even though they are usually hated or mistrusted, so neither of them have yet to receive this judgement. This could be why so many evil gods dwell in the lower planes - they had a re-start as a Demon and worked at getting their 'godhood' back. However, they still retain the shape they were forced into when they were sentenced (the shape is not chosen by the gods, but rather is a manifestation of the power's 'inner evil' - all the ugliness on the inside comes out). I know its pretty far-fetched, but it is something to think about. So the Batezu were always evil, but the Tanarri become 'the fallen'. |
| Shiftkitty07-16-07, 03:38 PM | It could be a new 'planar rule', that when a pantheon has declared you a betrayer, the head of the group is able to cast them out and they are changed, becoming a Demon Lord. It would even work in the Judao-Christian religion. Lucifer, the Bringer of Light becoming the Prince of Darkness? Satan, who, according to legend merely presented the case to NOT let a soul into heaven so that it could be proven worthy being cast down as the Liar? Hmmmmmmmmm! Here's a little more to chew on: a "demon" was not necessarily an evil spirit, but more like spiritual support staff. They'd be like roadies for a rock band. Heaven had it's demons in the form of the cherubim, etc. I kinda like this idea... |