Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XHereticX 01-25-08, 10:52 PM	I was reading the Vilhon Reach 2e product when I stumbled across a line saying that Lady Shadowmoon of the Emerald Enclave is the only elf druid in history. Elves can't be druids???? I'm confused:confused:
Ramar Aulinvox 01-25-08, 11:38 PM	Well, in 2nd ed. only humans and half-elves could be druids. There was some material in Evermeet that green elves could be as special priests but that was the exception and not the norm.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:46 PM	Well, in 2nd ed. only humans and half-elves could be druids. There was some material in Evermeet that green elves could be as special priests but that was the exception and not the norm. They got rid of that in 3e though didn't they?
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 11:49 PM	Ah, not familiar with 2nd edition? Yeah, all the nonhuman races were limited in what classes they could take, to one degree or another. Dwarves couldn't be Wizards, Elves couldn't be Druids, Gnomes couldn't be Paladins, etc. On top of which, many of them had caps on the levels they could achieve. 6th-level max, 15th-level max, etc. And yeah, they got rid of all of that in 3E. Thank God!
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:53 PM	Ah, not familiar with 2nd edition? Yeah, all the nonhuman races were limited in what classes they could take, to one degree or another. Dwarves couldn't be Wizards, Elves couldn't be Druids, Gnomes couldn't be Paladins, etc. On top of which, many of them had caps on the levels they could achieve. 6th-level max, 15th-level max, etc. And yeah, they got rid of all of that in 3E. Thank God! Ahh, that explains it. I'm only 16 so I wasen't quite old enough to play D&D when it was out:P . Thanks.
Mula 01-26-08, 03:45 AM	I think that was one of the weirdest 2e restrictions - no elven druids. Or elven bards...?
Khaelieth 01-26-08, 06:17 AM	I think that was one of the weirdest 2e restrictions - no elven druids. Or elven bards...? Agreed. But you needed good stats to be a paladn, whch was cool. My "l" sn't workng, usng lower case L where possble=P
Zanan 01-26-08, 08:16 AM	Yep, they did away with the old rule and introduced a new one - for the Realms. For all druids get divine spells and those are by default linked to deities. There was a druid deity list in the FRCS and F&P, neither was any all-covering or exhaustive. And ... obviously ... you had adventures with e.g. drow druids who have, by default, no decent deity to chose from. (Yes, I don't think that Shar or Malar are decent choices, especially if you think of the drow's (and Lolth's / Selvetarm's) ties to spiders and PrC in Underdark and the Book of Vile Darkness primarily linked to "vermin". Apparently, spiders are not that nature-ish ... I just hope they do away with these special druid deities, one-step rule and all in the New Realms. NB: There's that Eldreth Veluuthra-linked Frostlich, who has established a link to Nature as spell-giver ... or so he thinks.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 07:16 PM	I think that was one of the weirdest 2e restrictions - no elven druids. Or elven bards...? Agreed, those particular rules were pretty silly and contradictory.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 07:18 PM	I just hope they do away with these special druid deities, one-step rule and all in the New Realms. Well, 4E is supposed to be less focused on the mechanics of alignment. So, hopefully the horrid one-step rule (or anything similar) will be history.
Khaelieth 01-26-08, 07:34 PM	NB: There's that Eldreth Veluuthra-linked Frostlich, who has established a link to Nature as spell-giver ... or so he thinks. Lossarwyn. We've had a discussion to where he gets his power from, reaching the conclusion that it was a god granting him the power, but he believed he tapped into Nature. Could be fey magic?
Khaelieth 01-26-08, 07:35 PM	also, it's worth mentioning that druids were more akin to their Celtic ideals in previous editions, IMO. Ritual sacrifice roxX0red teh R0m4nz
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:55 PM	Lossarwyn. We've had a discussion to where he gets his power from, reaching the conclusion that it was a god granting him the power, but he believed he tapped into Nature. Could be fey magic? -Most likely Lolth, in my opinion. She's causing Chaos, corrupting Elves, and getting back at Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine all at the same time.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:57 PM	-Most likely Lolth, in my opinion. She's causing Chaos, corrupting Elves, and getting back at Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine all at the same time. Could be Malar as well.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-26-08, 07:58 PM	I'd kind of got the impression that Lossarwyn was getting his power granted by whatever dark forces he made his pact with - probably Malkizid, who seems like he's backing the EV generally. As far as older books go, you'll often find similarly odd things in novels, where characters directly refer to old-E restrictions or rules limitations that no longer apply in 3E, and sometimes wax histrionic about how special this character is because he/she is a race/class combination which isn't normally possible, or at least how they want to be such a thing.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:03 PM	I'd kind of got the impression that Lossarwyn was getting his power granted by whatever dark forces he made his pact with - probably Malkizid, who seems like he's backing the EV generally. . I was going to guess Malzikid as well, but later figured that he didn't have the power. Especially now that he is GREATLY weakened with the defeat of the Dlargadreths.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:14 PM	Could be Malar as well. -The emnity between Malar and the Seldarine is well recorded, and that is a possibilty as well.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:17 PM	-The emnity between Malar and the Seldarine is well recorded, and that is a possibilty as well. More so Malar due to his affinity with nature. Hell, if you think about it it could even be Yurutus.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:23 PM	More so Malar due to his affinity with nature. -Lolth has also been impersonating Moander, the deity of corruption, so she has 'nature' ties as well.
Warning 01-26-08, 08:50 PM	Elves can't be druids???? Good. I hope your next topic is about how: Elves can't breathe? Bow users too panzy to get in the fight. No beard, female voice metrol sexual elves. I bet they wear eye liner and make up (the guy elves). http://youtube.com/watch?v=TMgQyTNhTms When I catch them comming out of the closet in public, Ima love it.
Mula 01-26-08, 08:54 PM	Could be Malar as well. How about Shar? :P
Warning 01-26-08, 09:01 PM	-Lolth has also been impersonating Moander, the deity of corruption, so she has 'nature' ties as well. I'm telling you man, Drizzt is her chosen. Jarlaxell even mentioned it as a possbility. Wherever he goes, he causes chaos. Wherever Jarlaxell goes he causes orginzation. He screws over alot of peoples lives: Artemis/Zak/Matron Malice/Orcs and many many more that because of him, shifts have changed within their daily lives. If any of you fail to see this as a possbility, you are limited and closed minded. You enjoy whatever authors give you and do not demand anything new or uniqe. You would be sastifed with Drizzt killing simple orcs every novel. Seriously, challenge your imagination and your perspective...think outside the box?
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:05 PM	How about Shar? :P Supporting the extermination of humans and working aganst the Seldarine? She certainly is acting outside her priorities.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 12:13 AM	Good. I hope your next topic is about how: Elves can't breathe? Bow users too panzy to get in the fight. No beard, female voice metrol sexual elves. I bet they wear eye liner and make up (the guy elves). http://youtube.com/watch?v=TMgQyTNhTms When I catch them comming out of the closet in public, Ima love it.That was... disturbing. :rolleyes: But it does prove a point I made about Dancing being a big part of WoW. :P But if you liked that, you'll Love This. (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LSP7zFIWX0) ;)
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 12:31 AM	I'm telling you man, Drizzt is her chosen. Jarlaxell even mentioned it as a possbility. Wherever he goes, he causes chaos. Wherever Jarlaxell goes he causes orginzation. He screws over alot of peoples lives: Artemis/Zak/Matron Malice/Orcs and many many more that because of him, shifts have changed within their daily lives. -While a single priestess of Lolth did mention that he could be a Chosen of Lolth, by that criteria, any Drow could be a Chosen of Lolth, and that is clearly not the case. We only know of two that she's had over the years.
Philalexandros 01-27-08, 04:29 AM	I live for the day when D&D no longer tries to address any race-related game balance issues--like Level Adjustment or trying to make one race as favorable as another by giving it perks. The onus is on the DM to maintain game balance by deciding how he wants to run his campaign and what types of characters he is willing to allow. If he wants to have a Half-Dragon paladin rolling alongside a human ranger, fair enough. Pretending the Half Dragon is going to learn slower than the human, though, is just artificial and silly. This is sort of argument is about the only thing I disagree with Ed Greenwood on, insofar as his vision of the Realms is concerned.
Zanan 01-27-08, 04:36 AM	Well, 4E is supposed to be less focused on the mechanics of alignment. So, hopefully the horrid one-step rule (or anything similar) will be history. Well, I had a look at that pit fiend and whether that one really shows an improvement to the current one with regards to mechanics and play-ability? It looks to some extend like a step backwards to AD&D, but maybe that's just me. Rich BAker already stated that the clerics will not be given free access to the Weapon of Faiths (i.e. their deity's preferred weapon) in 4e, which would have made sense. For they "could easily take feats" ... aye right. So elves train all day long with longswords and longbows and get that for free, but the elven priests will not train with their god's preferred weapon. Nor will the drow priestesses, who only train with short sword, rapier and hand x-bow ... which they will all use later on. *rumble mode off* As in: I don't think that the OSR will be chopped. For some reason, some really antiquated rulings which do hamper classes and players seems to stick to D&D like an attached dirge, no matter what happens to other stuff.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:28 PM	Yes, while many of 4e's core concepts seem very good, certain decisions do appear to be counter-intuitive. However, I'm sure everyone will be houseruling the hell out of it, so your Weapons of faith can still exist in your own game.
Khaelieth 01-27-08, 06:27 PM	I'm telling you man, Drizzt is her chosen. Jarlaxell even mentioned it as a possbility. Wherever he goes, he causes chaos. Wherever Jarlaxell goes he causes orginzation. He screws over alot of peoples lives: Artemis/Zak/Matron Malice/Orcs and many many more that because of him, shifts have changed within their daily lives. If any of you fail to see this as a possbility, you are limited and closed minded. You enjoy whatever authors give you and do not demand anything new or uniqe. You would be sastifed with Drizzt killing simple orcs every novel. Seriously, challenge your imagination and your perspective...think outside the box? Pretty sure this was ruled out ages ago by some high-ranking Realms designer.
The_Shaman 01-27-08, 08:01 PM	-Most likely Lolth, in my opinion. She's causing Chaos, corrupting Elves, and getting back at Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine all at the same time. I thought the ice could be Auril's calling card. I'm not aware of any particular enmity between her and the Seldarine, although iirc Lloth had allied with a few deities in her war against them.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 10:28 PM	I thought the ice could be Auril's calling card. I'm not aware of any particular enmity between her and the Seldarine, although iirc Lloth had allied with a few deities in her war against them. -Auril was indeed a part of the original Anti-Seldarine. She faught against, but was defeated by Aerdrie Faenya. -I don't think Auril really has anything to do with this, however. Lossarywn is an "Ice Lich" because: a) Something akin to Spell Thematics, and a specific selection of his spells, or b) It is somehow related to him being imprisoned in a glacier.
Flicker 01-28-08, 07:10 AM	I live for the day when D&D no longer tries to address any race-related game balance issues--like Level Adjustment or trying to make one race as favorable as another by giving it perks. The onus is on the DM to maintain game balance by deciding how he wants to run his campaign and what types of characters he is willing to allow. If he wants to have a Half-Dragon paladin rolling alongside a human ranger, fair enough. Pretending the Half Dragon is going to learn slower than the human, though, is just artificial and silly. This is sort of argument is about the only thing I disagree with Ed Greenwood on, insofar as his vision of the Realms is concerned. Whilst I don't disagree with you on the DM maintaing the balance Phil, i don't agree with removing the level adjustment piece. My understanding was that it was introduced to ensure that people played humans, who in 2nd ed there is no incentive to play. When humans are meant to be the most populace race, there should be some reason to play them
Flicker 01-28-08, 07:12 AM	I was reading the Vilhon Reach 2e product when I stumbled across a line saying that Lady Shadowmoon of the Emerald Enclave is the only elf druid in history. Elves can't be druids???? I'm confused:confused: In the core rules for 2ed then no elves can't, but FR subsequently broker these rules in numerous books afterwards, see Mielikki and her multiclass Druid/Rangers from Faith and Avatars as an example. Part of this is Druids had to be true neutral in 2ed and Elves where often portrayed as the more goody side of nature.
Khaelieth 01-28-08, 07:19 AM	Auril has fought against the Seldarine before
Thinblade 01-28-08, 10:30 PM	2e tried to encourage people to play humans by introducing racial limits on class levels. So if you wanted to get really, really powerful, you had to be human. It was also used as a reason why all these races that should be more powerful than humans actually weren't, and why their empires had fallen. It was at least as arbitrary and in-game nonsensical as LA, but it had the advantage of being extremely easy to ignore. In fact, I'd guess it was (along with weapon speeds, which was a good idea but just way too hard to implement) the most-ignored rule in 2e.
Philalexandros 01-29-08, 07:29 AM	Different folks, different strokes, Flicker. Play what strikes you as interesting, that's my motto. Personally, I feel that it's silly to need an "incentive" to pick a certain race. Carrying this logic a step further, why shouldn't one player get an "incentive" to keep the character whose generated stats were average or inferior? Humans don't need extra feats and such to reflect they are the most populous race, nor is their power derived from extra feats or skill points. Their power is based precisely on the fact that, without innate magic or special abilities, they are easily one of the most prolific races and certainly among the most ambitious. Again, I'm 100% opposed to contrived means of inducing game balance, and this is one of them.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 10:35 AM	Humans don't need extra feats and such to reflect they are the most populous race, nor is their power derived from extra feats or skill points. -I'm 95% sure that the extra feat/skill points is explained by saying Humans learn quick. In fantasy settings, where the adaptability and 'hustle and bustle' of Humans is usually stressed, I have no prblem accepting this.
Bluenose 01-29-08, 10:46 AM	2e tried to encourage people to play humans by introducing racial limits on class levels. So if you wanted to get really, really powerful, you had to be human. It was also used as a reason why all these races that should be more powerful than humans actually weren't, and why their empires had fallen. It was at least as arbitrary and in-game nonsensical as LA, but it had the advantage of being extremely easy to ignore. In fact, I'd guess it was (along with weapon speeds, which was a good idea but just way too hard to implement) the most-ignored rule in 2e. Racial limits were in 1st edition too. And in my experience the rules were ignored less often than the rules on weapon speed and the rules that weapon types had penalties/bonuses against certain types of armour. Which doesn't mean they weren't ignored a lot, just that the others were almost never used. Level limits at least didn't come into play until the game reached a certain point, while the others were around from the start. Some 2E rules make me cringe remembering them.
Thinblade 01-29-08, 02:36 PM	2e had a lot of rules that were good ideas, and which increased the reality of the game, something that 3e has gotten away from. Things like explicit encumbrance tables, weapon speeds, weapon vs armor tables, situational initiative modifiers, and a bunch of other things. The problem was, if you used all of them your game could slow to a crawl unless you were used to them. Fortunately, 2e was also a much looser game than 3e. It was a lot easier to ignore something if you didn't like it (like all of the examples above), and your game ran just fine. All of the other parts went along just happily, regardless of whether you were using weapon speeds or not. 3e is much more tightly integrated, so if you want to remove something (skill points, for instance), you have to go through MASSIVE convolutions. Whereas in 2e, if you didn't want to deal with proficiencies, poof! They were instantly gone without any pain. Personally, I much prefer 2e's way of doing things.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 07:03 PM	-I'm 95% sure that the extra feat/skill points is explained by saying Humans learn quick. That's correct. And I agree that it works well.
Philalexandros 01-30-08, 06:44 AM	I don't have any problem with humans getting those things either. I simply have a problem with attaching a "learning curve" penalty on races that happen to be more powerful. But I can see how the last statement in my previous post could be misleading. It refers to "game balance" when it should have referred to "character choice".
Flicker 02-04-08, 11:29 AM	I don't have any problem with humans getting those things either. I simply have a problem with attaching a "learning curve" penalty on races that happen to be more powerful. But I can see how the last statement in my previous post could be misleading. It refers to "game balance" when it should have referred to "character choice". And there was me about to respond on that exact point, as I said, there was no reason to play a human in 2nd ed if you played optional rules and took out level variances etc, I happen to agree with you Phil that it was humans that needed something, not restricting the others.
GothicDan 02-04-08, 01:18 PM	Heh, I liked the idea of racial level limits, myself. Not exactly how I would have implemented it, but a good idea. In a world of magic, where demihumans were created directly by deities, and physics doesn't work the same, it was believable to me, even if a bit silly at times.
The_Shaman 02-05-08, 06:34 PM	Heh, I liked the idea of racial level limits, myself. Not exactly how I would have implemented it, but a good idea. In a world of magic, where demihumans were created directly by deities, and physics doesn't work the same, it was believable to me, even if a bit silly at times. Possibly, but it worked a little weird at times. Elves, with their lifespans reaching through the roof and their being supposedly as magical a race as could fit the PHB, not being able to begome as good mages as humans? What-freaking-ever.
Faraer 02-06-08, 06:09 AM	In AD&D and the Realms, druidry is a human way of relating people and society to the larger natural world. Nonhuman druids exist in so far as (a) they join human druidic hierarchies, or (b) it's judged that nonhuman societies have druid-equivalents near enough to be modelled mechanically by the druid class. Paladin and ranger similarly. AD&D race/class limits don't mean that in-world such a race can't be such a class, just that they usually aren't.
Zanan 02-06-08, 07:55 AM	In AD&D and the Realms, druidry is a human way of relating people and society to the larger natural world. Nonhuman druids exist in so far as (a) they join human druidic hierarchies, or (b) it's judged that nonhuman societies have druid-equivalents near enough to be modelled mechanically by the druid class. Paladin and ranger similarly. AD&D race/class limits don't mean that in-world such a race can't be such a class, just that they usually aren't. Unless I am mistaken, at least Demihuman Deities introduced druids amongst the elves too, Fenmarel and Rillifian, methinks, had druids.
Alediran 02-13-08, 12:17 PM	Unless I am mistaken, at least Demihuman Deities introduced druids amongst the elves too, Fenmarel and Rillifian, methinks, had druids. Yes, they were the Specialty Priests of both gods.