Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khellrendros 06-14-07, 07:34 PM	Ok so I may be jumping the gun but in the excerpts article it says that Halaster is dead. I am seriously not happy with the trend of deaths recently The Blackstaff, Halaster, and more I am sure I don't know of yet. It's taking some of my favorite pieces of the Realms and bashing them against the wall. It is like Dragonlance all over again, "Hey here we have a world where the two dragon gods pretty much constantly fight but wait now one of them is dead the the other is just like any other mortal." The whole basis of the campaign world got thrown into a blender until it became a nice unsatisfying gruel. *Sigh* Ok I am finished with my rant now but does anyone feel the same way I do. I do realize that the actual book may vary a bit and maybe Halaster isn't "dead" but still just reading completely depressed me.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 11:04 PM	-Khelben had a valid reason for dying, however. And, his death was preordained. His life's purpose was to raise the final city of Ancient Miyeritar from the High Moor. He completed it, so, his destiny was fufilled. -And, if I recall correctly, Halaster has "died" a few times in the past, only to have been kidnapped or some such.
MerrikCale 06-14-07, 11:16 PM	I gotta say Halaster means nothing to me
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 11:27 PM	-I agree, but if nothing else, he is iconic. -Also, Khel, keep in mind that Expedition to Undermountain, for whatever the reason, is a Core D&D product. Killing him off (not Realms canon) was probably the easiest way to do whatever it was the adventure/sourcebook writers/designers wanted to do.
Khellrendros 06-15-07, 11:17 AM	Well I do understand about the Blackstaff but it was just a shock that he was dead. I don't really disagree with his death since it was destiny but it just bothered me since he was such an Icon. Then again I felt the same way the first time I read Dragons of Winter Night and Sturm died. Still overall I was just kind of in shock about Khelben and then Halaster. Admittedly I didn't pause to consider it may not be canon. Also while I have never used Halaster in any Campaign as a NPC it is his background and character that make me enjoy him so much. Since nothing has really been written about him I can imagine up a lot of things he has done and reasons why he did them. Like the Demon Shields and that maybe they were just practice for him. Still I have ran PC's through some parts of Undermountain and the Idea of Halaster popping up from nowhere was one of the things that kept them on their toes. There's just nothing just a incredibly old and powerful mage to put the fear of the gods into a few characters. (Former momentary deities of magic included twice. ;) )
Aloki 06-15-07, 12:57 PM	Well, in the "Hordes of the Underdark" expansion for Neverwinter Nights Halaster was captured by the Drow, which were invading through either the bowels of Undermountain, or some portal (which i doubt, since Halaster is the Master of Portals, iirc), don't remember which. Now I am not sure that ANY of NWN in canon. But what it says in the excerpts, i gather that he is probably in just suspended animation, since it just says that his soul was shattered. It says nothing about his body. So maybe, through some incredibly powerful spell, divine intervention, whatever, you will "revive him" in the end, after you solve the thing about the arcane disaster. :p
Lykor 06-15-07, 04:12 PM	It would suck if Halaster is permanently dead. He's one of my favorite FR characters. Presumably, however, he has one or more spells setup to come back to life, ala Clone. I mean, he is a 1500+ year old archmage with access to pretty much every spell, and he doesn't have a clone or 47? It would also suck in game, since with him gone, all of the stuff in Undermountain won't be controlled by him any longer, and will start rampaging around in Waterdeep.
Murmur Maelstrom 06-15-07, 07:50 PM	I have ordered the Expedition to Undermountain.. And, if they truly have killed off Halaster as the excerps seem to be saying, then it will be the last straw for the Forgotton Realms. Since 3rd Edition has some out, the place has strayed further and further from the original look and feel of the whole setting. Now, if they arbitrarily kill off one of the most colorful (and useable) powerful NPCs in the Realms ((And far-and-away my favorite NPC)) then they are just ruining Ed Greenwood's creation. I am seriously considering abandoning all Wizard's of the Coast products....
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 07:57 PM	Meh. Death invariably never stops an archmage of his caliber.
MerrikCale 06-15-07, 09:56 PM	It would suck if Halaster is permanently dead. He's one of my favorite FR characters. may I ask why
Dark Wizard 06-15-07, 10:03 PM	This is unpleasant news. I like Halaster, he was unpredictable and mysterious; morally ambiguous and capable of anything - that is if he wasn't insane, then it's a whole other story. Definitely one of the more interesting characters of the Realms. There are a few more popular, overly in-your-face character I wouldn't mind seeing fade far into the background, but Halaster was far from one of those.
Lord Karsus 06-15-07, 11:52 PM	-Again, Expedition to Undermountain is not FR specific. Having Halaster dead seems like a good way to use Undermountain in Core without the Master of Undermountain butting in.
Dargoth 06-16-07, 12:18 AM	-Again, Expedition to Undermountain is not FR specific. Having Halaster dead seems like a good way to use Undermountain in Core without the Master of Undermountain butting in. in his thread Richard Baker confirmed Halaster is dead and it will also be mentioned in a Grand history of the realms
Dark Wizard 06-16-07, 01:16 AM	I wonder what did in old guy. Perhaps something involving the mega-adventure. I recall Shar had an interest in Halaster, but Mystra removed the maddening influence a while back.
Dargoth 06-16-07, 01:28 AM	Twisted Runes mentioned in the EtUm ToC
kaibrightwing 06-16-07, 01:32 AM	If he is dead or not losing any of the main characters i grow up with is a sad thing, but like real life death happans and we move on. When the main character of spellfire died which her name slips my mind. it was sad day for me. I have to say i have read some 150 novels and the world moves on. But think it this way in forgotten realms he is dead but in your story he survives and still is the man of the dungeon.
GhoX 06-16-07, 03:08 AM	I personally think the death of all these famous people is a good sign, and more should come. Forgotten Realms cannot always stay in this era of heroes... Just compare the heroes and events in the recent 100 years to the time before 1300... FR needs some balance, and new heroes should be made replacing the present. Besides, most of these famous heroes are human, they will die eventually. I don't think dying from aging would be a good course of storyline for most characters in a rapidly paced world. It is easy to conclude that heroes like Drizzt will not die from old age and Elminister will not live forever...
MerrikCale 06-16-07, 09:01 AM	I personally think the death of all these famous people is a good sign, and more should come. Forgotten Realms cannot always stay in this era of heroes... Just compare the heroes and events in the recent 100 years to the time before 1300... FR needs some balance, and new heroes should be made replacing the present. Besides, most of these famous heroes are human, they will die eventually. I don't think dying from aging would be a good course of storyline for most characters in a rapidly paced world. It is easy to conclude that heroes like Drizzt will not die from old age and Elminister will not live forever... I don't know. next thing you know they'll kill Captain America or something crazy like that
Purple Dragon Knight 06-16-07, 10:49 AM	I don't know. next thing you know they'll kill Captain America or something crazy like thatLOL! :) :D :) MerrikCale: How long do you give Marvel until they raise HIM from the dead? ;) Despite owning Cap America #25 (the issue showing his death), I believe there are holes in the story and the "visions/memories" of the brainwashed girl (which surge back suddenly, revealing to her that she killed Cap) could very well be the result of mind-control/more brainwash. I'll say Cap is dead-DEAD when I see the issue showing the post-mortem autopsy... :D
Kantor Brightblade 06-16-07, 12:14 PM	Ok Ok ok.....I have been around long enough on these boards to know that this kind of stuff happens. *breathe Kantor, breathe* Doesn't mean I really have to like it though. Anyway, I am currently reading Blackstaff....so, does that ruin the book for me now? Not that it matters, spoilers are what they are. You can still enjoy the whole book, movie, tv show...etc... To the post at hand... I understand the..let us call it a 'Business Decision'...that did in Halaster. But why would he suddenly have died? I haven't read anything on Halaster in quite some time. Though admittedly I haven't read all of the Realms novels just yet. Furthermore, knowing that the Realms is progressing, advancing place why can't we expect new heroes to rise and garner fame? So let me be first(if I am or not I don't care. :P ) to start the Official Forgotten Realms Death Pool! Come on folks, you know someone is gonna die. I want names, faces and places...tons of people have to bite it..why not call your shot? :cheer: :plotting: :evillaugh :schemes:
souldnce9 06-16-07, 01:48 PM	Pffft good ridence Cap. America! Although I've never seen a popular super hero die. They'll just bring him back some how like Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Oh god this list could go on forever. You know if I'm gonna read comics; give me Darkhorse comics or Frank Miller any day. Sorry I'm sure you liked him, but I had to rant a little bit. :embarrass
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 08:47 PM	I'll say Cap is dead-DEAD when I see the issue showing the post-mortem autopsy... :D -Isn't that Issue 26? in his thread Richard Baker confirmed Halaster is dead and it will also be mentioned in a Grand history of the realms -Link, please? -Until it is mentioned in A Grand History of the Realms, if it is indeed actually mentioned, it is not FR canon.
Old Sage 06-16-07, 08:56 PM	See here:- http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12739783&postcount=408
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 08:59 PM	-Does Richard Baker get some kind of thrill by drastically altering things that don't need to be drastically altered, for no apparent reason? -Well, let's just hope he did his research this time. Don't want another Tree of Souls...:rolleyes:
MerrikCale 06-16-07, 09:14 PM	MerrikCale: How long do you give Marvel until they raise HIM from the dead? ;) They'll hold out for a while. I imagine sales will be pretty good for the story line and the creative team (I always loved Epting myself). At some point, they will leave, sales will slip, and voila- Steve Rogers is back from the dead. It will be a little time, maybe 5 years
Mr_Miscellany 06-16-07, 09:25 PM	-Does Richard Baker get some kind of thrill by drastically altering things that don't need to be drastically altered, for no apparent reason?Eric L. Boyd, Ed Greenwood, Christopher Lindsay, and Sean K. Reynolds are listed as authors. Just in case you wanted to redirect you ire in the appropriate direction. :P :::::::::::::: I hope to learn why he's listed as dead. Good flavor to be had, if they do it right.
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 05:34 PM	Eric L. Boyd, Ed Greenwood, Christopher Lindsay, and Sean K. Reynolds are listed as authors. Just in case you wanted to redirect you ire in the appropriate direction. :P -Nope. His carrying the title of 'Senior Designer, Roleplaying R&D' is enough to allow me to channel my "outrage" (Though, in truth, the death of Halaster doesn't bother me too much, one way or another) at him, and not feel bad about channeling at the wrong guy. ;) I hope to learn why he's listed as dead. Good flavor to be had, if they do it right. -A good enough story will make this pill a lot easier to swallow. Khelben's death was done correctly, and I (and a lot of others) accept it. If Elminster died (for real), and his death was properly handled, I am sure that his death would be accepted, for the most part. The item to tip the approval/disapproval scale is exactly how Halaster died. I guess we'll have to wait.
Purple Dragon Knight 06-17-07, 07:31 PM	-Isn't that Issue 26?Nope. That body had been dressed up as Cap America to lure/bait the underground resistance there, for Tony Stark and his team to capture. I don't think it worked though. Then again, that's about the time when I checked out of Marvel and comic books in general (I will have to re-direct my monthly income some other way for a while, so I basically had to choose between comics and the rest of the 3.5 D&D/FR products coming out in the next year or so (after which I'm pretty sure we're going to be served with the 4th edition or some Gleemaxed crap, at which point I'll be checking out of that hotel...)
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 07:35 PM	-You don't need to eat. Trust me...;)
dave_the_DM 06-17-07, 09:07 PM	Cannon- Schmannon. Halaster will never die in MY Waterdeep, and neither will The Blackstaff. I have been running this campaign since 1993, and Waterdeep and Undermountain are so intertwined, I can't see how you could have one without the other. I have EVERY supplement printed on both subjects, and am very much looking forward to this 3.5e addition to Undermountain... Although I will take the "cannon" included therein with a grain of salt, and deviate where it conflicts with what I have established already. What I want to see: - A nice "side view" cutaway of the levels of Undermountain. (based on the map-a-week entry this week, looks like a done! yeah!) - Some detailed drawing of the "Yawning Portal". Similiar to what was done with the "Thirsty Throat" in the Waterdeep boxed set. The Portal is probable one of the most famous Taverns in all of the Realms, yet there has never been a detailed map published of the place. (There is one in the "City System" boxed set, but it conflicts with the written description of later products.) - Some more detail on the "Citadel of the Bloody Hand". If these are included, I will be a happy camper! :D
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 09:18 PM	Then again, that's about the time when I checked out of Marvel and comic books in general (I will have to re-direct my monthly income some other way for a while, so I basically had to choose between comics and the rest of the 3.5 D&D/FR products coming out in the next year or so you may haev chosen wrong
kaibrightwing 06-18-07, 12:59 AM	to run your own games is the coolish thing i can do. Most of my games is to get the player emotion toward one thing or the other if the players remember how much they hated the villian or how much they love one of the npc then my story/adventure was a good one, but if months/years down the line they remember it then i ran a great game.
shadowoftreefrog 06-19-07, 07:44 AM	Dave, bad news kinda. There is a map of yawning portal in the book but its not terribly detailed, and doesn't exactly seem to fit the description (in the main room there is not enough space for all the tables and a 40 foot hole in the floor at the same time... maybe they throw the tables down... who knows.) It does talk about the citidel of the bloody hand but only for like 1 column on 1 page. no maps or anything detailing it as far as I can tell, I've only read like the front half of the book though (need to have that part memorized before next gaming session) but it looks like thats all theres going to be for that. The book seems to be kinda a od mashup of extremely well thought out very detailed stuff and... well nothing theres plenty of examples I can see so far where there is no information about what is down a hallway (not even mapped) that I know my players are going to want to go down. Also the "map of the week" from before showing the dungeon level... yeah thats all there is of that map, no reference, no rest of the map, that map doesn't line up or overlap with any of the maps featuring the bottom of the well from yawning portal, as far as I can tell at this point that "map" is just a pretty picture. But all the encounters are fantastically written at least through the end of chapter 2. There is a lot of detail and neat stuff in the first "adventure" (its barely an adventure though, with very little thought being given to the lead in. If I know my players at all I'm going to need to work on the lead in a lot If I want them to even go in there) My group will be starting this on wednesday so we'll see how it goes.
dave_the_DM 06-19-07, 09:46 AM	Hey Shadow, I just posted something I'm sure you'd be interested in: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=869798 I saw that map, and I have to agree, its pretty lame... not doors, no numbered keys. It does line up, but even with my knowledge of the place it took me a bit to get my barings. My thoughts on the books so far is, that it will enhance the products already out with updated material, and if you are familiar with the thing it will be useful. If you are a complete Newb, than its going to be pretty much useless. Stupid move on WOTC's part, as the low sales will pretty much squelch future releases. IMHO, to really enjoy what UM has to offer, you MUST partner the action with Waterdeep above. Based on what you said above, I think the post I linked will be useful to you. Let me know! :D BTW, are you running Waterdeep/ FR with this or no? I'd be more than happy to help you with the lead in ideas... what's your group's level/ makeup? Dave
shadowoftreefrog 06-19-07, 04:41 PM	Dave I am running it in FR and placing it under Waterdeep. I have never really tried running a waterdeep only campagn before. This will actually be the first published adventure I have DM'd I've previously done all stuff of my own devising. But It's my turn to DM again (I take turns with one of the guys in my group) and I have always had a "special place in my heart" for undermountain even though I don't have any of the previously published materials on it. The group is still trying to get exactly what they're doing but it looks like its going to be a LG Aasimar Paly, NG Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, Satyr Druid (not sure what he was going to do for Alignment), and one of my other players is trying to find a way to fit a lizardfolk fighter in there. (I told him if he could convince me that there was a reason for him to be there he could play it). The guy who I alternate DM'ing with is playing the Rogue and I think he may have done some adventuring in UM in a old group but I'm not sure. I might have to get the maps for the earlier stuff and at least have them in printout... one of the guys in my group has access to a draft printer at work so I couldhave them print out pretty big..(bonus for knowing engineers)
MerrikCale 06-19-07, 09:16 PM	Dave The group is still trying to get exactly what they're doing but it looks like its going to be a LG Aasimar Paly, NG Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, Satyr Druid (not sure what he was going to do for Alignment), and one of my other players is trying to find a way to fit a lizardfolk fighter in there. (I told him if he could convince me that there was a reason for him to be there he could play it). now thats a motley crew. Good luck getting a room at an inn
Jhiroth 06-19-07, 10:13 PM	I have ordered the Expedition to Undermountain.. And, if they truly have killed off Halaster as the excerps seem to be saying, then it will be the last straw for the Forgotton Realms. Halaster has been alive for thousands of years, with no concrete history. He has managed to **** off everyone from Myth Drannor mages to the Twisted Rune. Did you really think he would live forever? What happens after he 'dies' is another thread entirely :D
Drew1369r 06-19-07, 10:40 PM	I had to confirm this horrible news for myself... so today I went to the book store and read the excerpt... And felt a tear run down the side of my face :'( BTW it looks like resurrecting him has been plot hooked in the book His sould being shattered into thousands of pieces
dutch206 06-19-07, 11:14 PM	Dave the DM- The only place I have seen a definitive floorplan of the Yawning Portal is in the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas. You can find it on E-bay, but be prepared to shell out major bucks. initial review: Just finished reading the book. (I was in line when Borders opened at 10 am -- How's that for Geek cred?) High points: -Incredibly detailed encounters with tactics and variable outcomes. -Advice for what to do if your players move in a direction you weren't expecting, or if they somehow break the plotline. -Lots of maps and illustrations -A list of most of the major portals and their entrance and exit points. (Only two of the physical entrances to UM survive the earthquake at the beginning of the book) Low points: -Turned the exterior setting into generic-land so you can put it anywhere. This is the oldest campaign setting in the Forgotten Realms, and it deserved more respect. -They killed Halaster....You Bas%@#*!!! (gratuitous South Park reference always in style) :D -Completely ignored the "return to undermountain" web series that Matthew Sernett posted on this website last year. Nothing from that adventure made it into this product. -Didn't do their research on undermountain very well. Information freely available on this website on the "Web Enhancements" page was ignored or forgotten. The first web enhancement for COS:Waterdeep included the following note on page 8: "10) Lord Hund Hillgauntlet (LE Mummy Necromancer 15), grand-uncle of the current lord, survives in his crypt on the tomb level of undermountain (UM 2)." Lord Hund Hillgauntlet? Nowhere in sight. They can't even remember their own lore. Sloppy work. -By the end of the first chapter of the adventure, your second-level party is in possession of a minor artifact. By the end of the campaign, they will own a cauldron which can convert potions into scrolls, a sword of water elemental bane, a legacy item that is a major artifact of the Shield Dwarves, and a helmet formed from the skull of a phrenic (psionic)umber hulk. -The plotline which drew the characters into undermountain is left unresolved. The last page of the book says "Wait until our upcoming product on the elder evils is released to find out what Halaster was talking about." This is cheap and exploitative, IMHO. Final opinion: Worth it if you plan to run adventures in undermountain, but still not what it could have been. After reading this trash, I will most likely resist the temptation to buy "Expedition to Castle Greyhawk".
dave_the_DM 06-19-07, 11:49 PM	Well, here's my review: What Expedition is, and what everybody wanted are two different things. What we all wanted was UM redone and updated for 3.5e. A supplement, like the original boxed set. What we got was a hardcover, 227pg mega dungeon module, that has a specific story to tell, and covers those aspects of UM that are pertinent to the module's story arc. Also, the floorplan for the Yawning Portal is still the same WRONG ONE from the old City System Boxed Set. Published in 1988, three years before Ruins of Undermountain came out, the floor plan map doesn't match the description given in ROUM. HELLO! WOTC... Are you paying attention?? The Yawning Portal has a 40 foot diameter well in the middle of the inn! WTF? The most famous inn in all of the Realms, and this is the treatment you give it? There's some great stuff here to be sure, but the dumb stuff, is really inexcusable. WOTC is doing a TSR redo. God help us. I can tell you, that for my part, I'm not killing off Halaster. There is certainly great ideas, that can be used to cause havoc for the PCs... without disrupting a long running campaign. There is a lot of great resource information, encounters, and overall ideas that I will use in my campaign. I can't say that I want to 'shake things up" this drastically, however. I have played Halaster for YEARS, against a variety of groups... I understand his motivations and goals, and I have to say I don't see him killing himself off in this way. The fact that the impetus behind the soul shattering spell that Halaster cast is LEFT OUT of the module really annoys me. WHY WOULD I screw my campaign this way? I for one, will use this material... the factions presented are interesting, and there is no doubt these encounters are well done. With modification I can come up with my own storyline that uses whats presented here. Oh yeah... I ain't kill'in off the Blackstaff off either. Dave
Taelohn 06-20-07, 02:09 PM	I found the following quotes in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12707837) thread: basically, halaster foresaw a mysterious arcane force of incredible power moving towards undermountain that would destroy the entirety of it if left unchecked. over many years, halaster labored to complete a great magical ritual that would shield undermountain from the arcane force and thus save countless lives. unfortunately, the liches of the twisted rune interfered with his casting and caused the spell to backfire, instantly incinerating halaster and shattering his soul into millions of pieces. these pieces are what call people with arcane magic to come to undermountain and finish what halaster started. The events in this book are directly tied to the aftermath of the events of Halaster's Higharvestide. Perhaps the Twisted Rune left some hitherto dormant and unnoticed spells on Halaster when they captured him? Though it strains credulity that Mystra wouldn't have noticed that when she came to cure him of his madness, two years later...
Penknight 06-20-07, 02:49 PM	-Does Richard Baker get some kind of thrill by drastically altering things that don't need to be drastically altered, for no apparent reason? -Well, let's just hope he did his research this time. Don't want another Tree of Souls...:rolleyes:LOL, amen! And that is one of the reasons I enjoy reading your posts so much, my friend. You typically give voice to the things that I am thinking. All I have to do is hit the 'quote' button. ;)
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 05:58 PM	LOL, amen! And that is one of the reasons I enjoy reading your posts so much, my friend. You typically give voice to the things that I am thinking. All I have to do is hit the 'quote' button. ;) -That's NOT because I am reading your mind...:incog: Just finished reading the book. (I was in line when Borders opened at 10 am -- How's that for Geek cred?) -Been there, done that...;) The plotline which drew the characters into undermountain is left unresolved. The last page of the book says "Wait until our upcoming product on the elder evils is released to find out what Halaster was talking about." This is cheap and exploitative, IMHO. -Did it literally say that!? :uh-huh: -A product on the Elder Evils, eh? Why do I have this sudden sinking feeling? :surrender
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 07:17 PM	It's easy to whine when the responsibility isn't yours.
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 10:40 PM	It's easy to whine when the responsibility isn't yours. -You notice, though, that when others do more "tasteful" things, no one whines.
Karsus the Mad 06-21-07, 07:41 AM	-You notice, though, that when others do more "tasteful" things, no one whines. True there. Something...fishy...is going on:shifty:
kaibrightwing 06-21-07, 10:09 AM	it said his soul was shatted into shards. if i remember right
Shiftkitty 06-21-07, 10:31 AM	Cannon- Schmannon. Halaster will never die in MY Waterdeep, and neither will The Blackstaff. I'm a bit late chiming in, but I second this. I don't care who WotC kills off, or whether or not it's "canon". If the character's absence is absolutely necessary for the adventure, then I make something up that does what I want it to do. Before I ever laid eyes on War of the Spider Queen, I had decided that Lolth was chaotic enough to abandon her faithful to pursue her own goals. Kind of like Charlotte's Web, you could imagine a big, empty spider web with the word "SUCKERS!" spelled in it. We've killed Corellon and Iuz (replaced Iuz with a Godslayer impostor), and the gods are in a bit of a hub-bub with an overwhelming feeling across the board that another ToT is about to rear its head. To me, the only thing "canon" are most of the game mechanics.
Lord Karsus 06-21-07, 06:33 PM	True there. Something...fishy...is going on:shifty: -You think we need to start breaking kneecaps? :incog:
Karsus the Mad 06-21-07, 07:40 PM	-You think we need to start breaking kneecaps? :incog: We'll let the Hands do that. Plausible deniability and all that:mrt:
Lord Karsus 06-21-07, 10:02 PM	We'll let the Hands do that. Plausible deniability and all that:mrt: -Yeah, that is kind of what they are for. Every once and a while, I/We do need to get our feet wet, though.
dave_the_DM 06-21-07, 11:32 PM	So far, I am finding ETUM a very good read. The encounters are well done, and the levels are consistent with the 2 boxed sets and modules. I'm not sure that I'm going to use the storyline presented, but I certainly am going to use the new material. The additional info on levels never before presented was good. The crossection display was LONG overdue, and very helpful, if not correctly in scale. No big. Using the Yawning Portal map from the old city system boxed set really annoyed me though. I expected the Inn to get a little bit better treatment... there is no well on the floor plan... how could they miss this??? It boogles the mind. The second level floor plan shown is just the upper right corner section from the ROUM boxed set... amusingly enough, the section that is covered in this module is actually in the lower left... Huh? The third level that is shown is actually just the southern part from the boxed set... where Skullport is. My only nit is that the backstory is not really all that compelling. Its such a "redo"... from Stardock :rolleyes: , and then they don't fill in the blanks as to the whys and wherefores of what this "impending evil" is. "We just had you kill off a major NPC for this story, now we'll leave it up to you the DM to say exactly why." WTF???:mad: There is so much that is good here, so how can they screw up on the basics? I don't get it.
Shiftkitty 06-22-07, 11:36 AM	"We just had you kill off a major NPC for this story, now we'll leave it up to you the DM to say exactly why." WTF??? I can't stand this sort of thing. As much as I enjoy making things up on the fly, if the main outfit that produced the adventure is going to work some major changes, they should provide at least a skeleton of a backstory. Especially if they want me to part with my hard-earned money for it. Even if they do it as a Mad-Lib... During a (event) in (place), (famous NPC in you campaign) (verb, past tense) three of the major gods of (thing). In the aftermath, it was discovered that the mightiest (type of person) was actually a ... You get the idea.:D
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 12:11 AM	During a (event) in (place), (famous NPC in you campaign) (verb, past tense) three of the major gods of (thing). In the aftermath, it was discovered that the mightiest (type of person) was actually a ... You get the idea.:D During a party in Cormyr, King Azoun IV farted on three of the major gods of potatoes. In the aftermath, it was discovered that the mightiest hippie was actually a ...
Shiftkitty 06-23-07, 01:27 PM	ROFLMAO! Someone's gotta do a D&D Mad-Lib book! You never know what sort of module might come of it! I'm thinking monster descriptions, NPCs, place descriptions, even a room or two!
msatran 06-23-07, 02:46 PM	Uh, Shiftkitty...you are the completion of Karsus's sentence. That was mean, Karsus. I have to congratulate you and add "Master of diss" to your already impressive list of titles. I liked it. Who cares if the map is wrong? It's just a map. And as long as the Undermountain internet updates still work, who cares?
Bonzai 06-23-07, 03:52 PM	I don't mind having a major character die, as long as it's done well, and the character gets the respect he deserves. Take Khelben for example. He was given a stand alone novel to shine in one last time, flesh out a little more back story, and his death left a legacy that should have a lasting impact on the realms. It doesn't get much better done than that. Or there are the Secondary characters that die during a major confrontation, to add impact to the story. People like Sturm, Jak Fleet, and Daryth. These loses are done for dramatic effect, and are made to draw the reader closer to the story. These too are acceptable. But to take an iconic character, and have him die behind the scenes as a mere footnote is rediculous. That would be like having the lord of the rings, with Frodo and Sam going all the way to Mordor, destroying the ring, and Gandalf showing up and saying, "Oh.. I am terribly sorry, but I just learned that Sauron actually died some time ago"....
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 06:03 PM	Uh, Shiftkitty...you are the completion of Karsus's sentence. That was mean, Karsus. I have to congratulate you and add "Master of diss" to your already impressive list of titles. -Eh? :confused: -I didn't dis the kitty. Kitty never said to fill in that final '...', so I just left it as is. -I'll be keeping that "Master of Dis" title, though. Actually, come to think of it, I already am the master of 'Dis. :)
SoulCatcher78 06-24-07, 07:29 PM	I'm a bit late in chiming in but I have to agree. Good things include: The book is pretty. The new maps are interesting, as well as information on Belkram's Fall (some great ideas to be had there for mountaineering combat). The encounters are pretty well balanced and interesting for low level characters. If you want to start some 1-3rd level characters or fit this into your own home brew world, great. Less than Good things include: Dead Halaster so we have an effectively unstocked dungeon (Keep on the Borderlands had more beasties and traps) to walk around in, Undetailed power groups (some stat blocks for the Twisted Rune goons would have been nice to have since they had a hand in the paragraph of backstory) which require you to either make up large organizations and their hierarchies or just go buy 12 more books. Maps that again require that you either have older material or spend time fixing the new material to make them work (they didn't even mark the entry point on the full page map...shoot the intern!). If you download/have access to the old version (RoUM) of the map, you can find the entry point but since it doesn't show secret doors, be careful about using the single page map on pg 19 when planning your encounters. Since they posted that particular map online, make sure you tell your players that this map is in no way going to match your campaign map so they don't get any wise ideas. As previously noted, the yawning portal map thing is getting out of control...we are literate, please draw a picture that matches the description. Cliffhanger tie in? What is this, bad TV? I will be using the book in an upcoming campaign but I think I'm going to scrap most of it and go with original material for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level of UM. [/rant]
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 07:33 PM	-Eh? :confused: -I didn't dis the kitty. Kitty never said to fill in that final '...', so I just left it as is. -I'll be keeping that "Master of Dis" title, though. Actually, come to think of it, I already am the master of 'Dis. :) Disenfranchised at least... K, k...that didn't make any sense...it was funny when I typed it....
Shiftkitty 06-24-07, 07:41 PM	I thought it was funny...:)
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 07:45 PM	I thought it was funny...:) Thank you!:P I feared I was too drunk to make a funny:D
ClobberinTime 06-25-07, 04:09 PM	Ok, here is why I am actually ****** about this: Halaster got killed because WOTC had decided this product was best marketed for levels 1-10. Why: Marketing said this was likely to be the best target levels for the product and they have already had some higher level adventures coming out this year. Clearly with the target level, WOTC was worried about the Munchkin factor, i.e. 'Why doesn't Halaster just do it?'. Answer remove the Munchkin factor by killing him off, and viola: No more Halaster!
Faraer 06-25-07, 05:42 PM	Why doesn't he just do what? Still waiting on my copy.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 05:45 PM	Its 'core' and therefore irrelevent. :P
Lord Karsus 06-26-07, 12:28 AM	Halaster got killed because WOTC had decided this product was best marketed for levels 1-10. Why: Marketing said this was likely to be the best target levels for the product and they have already had some higher level adventures coming out this year. -Why I agree, to a point, what evidence is there to back up what you are claiming? In the past, Halaster was "taken out of the picture" via other methods...Why not this time as well? Its 'core' and therefore irrelevent. :P -Rich Baker stated that it will be mentioned in A Grand History of the Realms, thereby making it canon.
Khellrendros 06-26-07, 11:49 PM	WOW!!! I actually started something that made people talk for 3 pages. *sniff* Now maybe I can stop lurking around all the time. Thanks for all the answers and conversation going on everyone. I just couldn't get over Halaster being dead. As Lord Karsus said having him just die without a decent backstory or anything really got to me. Hopefully they will give us a little more of his story on the new Season of Undermountain Road Rulz or whatever they are calling the Elder whatever sequel. I mean Khelben and Azoun got great deaths but poor Halaster the "Mad Mage" only gets a foot note even though he's been around for ever and has done numerous things that most mortal spellcasters would Give their lives for. Not to mention the, "Hey Mystra got rid of most of my madness. I should go have my soul shattered as a thank you gift." Ok rant done again... :) It's fun to throw in a word or hundred!
Lord_Madrigan 06-27-07, 12:23 AM	-Rich Baker stated that it will be mentioned in A Grand History of the Realms, thereby making it canon. Halaster Dead In canon! (http://darthno.ytmnd.com/)
selunatic2397 06-27-07, 11:24 AM	I promised myself that I wouldn't post before I read the module...bought it a well ago and now have read it several times... WTF!!!!! I have been DMimg for 29 years...since 1978! I can't say anything that hasn't been posted by much more eloquent people...that ending was like a bad 70's TV show... If the novels are canon...and if Jesirya was in the book where the Blackstaff died...and participated in the great spell... how does she end up as a "Living Wish Spell" trapped by Halaster?:confused: Yes i know that the magister book had her in the middle of a spell web wandering off into the forest to be never seen again... So much canon was left out or just waved away that I have to ask if the authors actually wrote this or just signed off on someone elses work? KRASH, if you are reading this...By the gods of a thousand dead soldiers...please tell me that the grand history of the realms won't be just like this!!!:weep:
ClobberinTime 06-27-07, 03:37 PM	I think you guys should expect more of this sort of thing. Clearly the 'epic' factor is being removed from the FR in favor of 'Well the most popular levels of play are from levels 5 to 15'. So you need lots and lots of convoluted and thoughtless plot twists designed to make the epic level NPCs of the realms irrelevant, dead, sleeping or whatever so the PCs can be the heros.
Faraer 06-27-07, 05:30 PM	You still haven't explained how the removal of a high-level villain like Halaster would have such an effect, or given any reason to think anyone at Wizards thinks PCs aren't the heroes already.
pokie 06-28-07, 01:04 AM	OK, SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER May be somebody said it above, but I am too lazy to read the whole post. Halaster's body and soul may be shattered, but his spirit is very much alive. Read the whole damn campaign book before complaining, sheesh.
Shiftkitty 06-28-07, 09:26 AM	I saw on the exerpts page (I haven't bought it yet) that he had messed up during a ritual...badly! Okay, I guess famous/powerful people can die stupidly, too. Who says they have to go out in a blaze of glory?
dutch206 06-28-07, 09:32 AM	Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. You don't live for over a thousand years by making dumbsh** mistakes like the one described in the book. I am far more willing to believe that Halaster did it on purpose to draw someone out of hiding. IMHO, he is getting tired of the Twisted Rune and plans to pick them off one by one as they come out of the shadows. That would be classic Halaster.
Shiftkitty 06-28-07, 09:54 AM	Dale Earnhardt died making a stupid mistake, and he was one of the tops in his field. Fame and power don't protect you from yourself. I admit it's anticlimactic, but not unprecedented in reality.
pokie 06-28-07, 01:03 PM	See my spoiler post above.... he is not... well, see post.
Shiftkitty 06-28-07, 03:06 PM	I saw that, but I have a feeling that there would be complaints just because he didn't have his physical body anymore.
pokie 06-28-07, 03:07 PM	I saw that, but I have a feeling that there would be complaints just because he didn't have his physical body anymore. Such complaints are so bs. He can get a wraith template or something. :)
Flicker 06-28-07, 03:37 PM	Actually, i'm more annoyed that he dies trying to do a ritual to stop 'something threatening'? What???? like an overdue bill from the Lords of Waterdeep. This was a 30th+ lvl archmage and genius, like if he needs to stop it, maybe its something that somebody else might have noticed by chance? This just smacks of 'I couldn't think of a sophisticated way to say goodbye so I copped out and had him fall down the backstairs'? Oh, and where did the 4e discussion go? Flicker
pokie 06-28-07, 03:41 PM	If you are worth your weight as DM (in gold pieces), you should be able to make the arcane disaster up. My version: Runestone allows him to see that a deity is gonna open a permanent portal to the abyss right in the undermountain. Runestone is a major artifact, imo. W/o its insight (or w/e), the other archmages have no idea as a deity prevents divination of the event.
ClobberinTime 06-28-07, 04:08 PM	Ok, Rich's answer made sense to me and I think I was getting caught up in the Hysteria. Halaster makes more sense to me as a disembodied spirit than he ever did as an immortal crazy man. Why not make him a Demi-Lich?
Flicker 06-28-07, 04:51 PM	Err, cos the whole thing about Halaster was he looked after all the gates in undermountain and don't Demi Liches leave their physical bodies to go planes hopping? Oh and worth my weight in gp as a DM, hmm deity opens portal to abyss, of course no deity ever considered that before (like they havn't been around for a few thousand years and they work through worshippers?), now why wouldn't they do that? Oh, maybe cos the Demon Lords might have something to say about it or 1 of the other gods says, i know, i'll close it. My point was more to do with a criticism at the perceived lack of background to a major change to a major character, hell I've got no issues if they decided to kill every major character in the realms, but at least give them a reason why. For example, Halaster works a major ritual to improve his control over gates per se but Mystra feels this impinges to much on her portfolio of worship so she change him into a spirit bound to the whole of undermountain with control over its gates and rooms/levels that he can change as he wishes. Now there's a dungeon the players can never 'clean out' as Halaster just changes it to look like something different, sort of a constrained demi god in 1 place. Flicker
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 05:08 PM	Halaster's body and soul may be shattered, but his spirit is very much alive. Read the whole damn campaign book before complaining, sheesh. That is the most stupidly contrived crap I have ever seen (not you repeating it, but it itself). If a soul being shattered into thousands of pieces isn't capable of stopping the "spirit" of a "mere" Halaster, then Karsus's soul (which is shattered into a puny three parts) shouldn't be a problem for the arcanist supreme, but hoooo, it is. Contrived bs, nothing else. This stupidity ranks up there with Telemont being Lord Shadow. Such complaints are so bs. He can get a wraith template or something. He shouldn't need to get a wraith template. At his skill of the arcane, death should be nothing but a mere incovenience.
pokie 06-28-07, 05:30 PM	Err, cos the whole thing about Halaster was he looked after all the gates in undermountain and don't Demi Liches leave their physical bodies to go planes hopping? Oh and worth my weight in gp as a DM, hmm deity opens portal to abyss, of course no deity ever considered that before (like they havn't been around for a few thousand years and they work through worshippers?), now why wouldn't they do that? Oh, maybe cos the Demon Lords might have something to say about it or 1 of the other gods says, i know, i'll close it. My point was more to do with a criticism at the perceived lack of background to a major change to a major character, hell I've got no issues if they decided to kill every major character in the realms, but at least give them a reason why. For example, Halaster works a major ritual to improve his control over gates per se but Mystra feels this impinges to much on her portfolio of worship so she change him into a spirit bound to the whole of undermountain with control over its gates and rooms/levels that he can change as he wishes. Now there's a dungeon the players can never 'clean out' as Halaster just changes it to look like something different, sort of a constrained demi god in 1 place. Flicker I am not going to argue about what you said. Let's just say some deities are demon lords and that a pathetic exiled lord of Baator opened a portal to hell in a canon book... Anyway, lack of background ****** me off too, but that's what DMs are for. If you don't like my version, I am sure you can come up with your own.
pokie 06-28-07, 05:38 PM	That is the most stupidly contrived crap I have ever seen (not you repeating it, but it itself). If a soul being shattered into thousands of pieces isn't capable of stopping the "spirit" of a "mere" Halaster, then Karsus's soul (which is shattered into a puny three parts) shouldn't be a problem for the arcanist supreme, but hoooo, it is. Contrived bs, nothing else. This stupidity ranks up there with Telemont being Lord Shadow. He shouldn't need to get a wraith template. At his skill of the arcane, death should be nothing but a mere incovenience. SPOILERS Wow, Karsus, nice irritated use of language here, very unbecoming of the most powerful mage to ever walk the surface of Faerun. Also, you annulled my spoiler warning - while I don't care about that, some other people will be ******. Regardless, spirit=ghost=wraith. While I think it also equals soul, obviously Wizards of tC disagree. What's more obvious is that it can be said (by DM) that his soul was say soul trapped as per spell in a certain item described in the book as opposed to shattered. Also since shattered means "broken into pieces," here is a lead for an epic quest to put Humpty Dumpty together again. His spirit is not what he used to be, so there; Mr. Halaster wasn't facing Mystra(-yl) herself, Karsus. I think his death wasn't as dramatic. As for this fact or his death in general being an inconvenience or not, that's up to the DM. Next time, please provide cogent arguments to support rough language.
Pallis 06-28-07, 05:49 PM	Problem I've got with this is that I'm trying to map out the Entry Well section using D&D tiles and Dwarven Forge, but the map on page 49 doesn't match any area on the 'pretty picture' map on p19. I'm talking in particularly about the area west of location 5. Any thoughts...? :confused:
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 06:06 PM	Wow, Karsus, nice irritated use of language here, very unbecoming of the most powerful mage to ever walk the surface of Faerun. Also, you annulled my spoiler warning - while I don't care about that, some other people will be ******. It's very becoming, if I can say so myself (which I obviously can, since I have, and will). Afterall, what does the most powerful mage do? Answer: whatever he pleases;) I am of course 100% joking with that. :embarrass If those that truly desire to not know the info of the Expedition to Undermountain product, then they wouldn't be participating on a thread that announces such in it's title, and numerous posts that follow. If a person lacks the cognitive ability to deduce the nature of the thread via it's title, I fail to see how it's my responsibility to be wary of it. But I digress, you're correct. I'll put spoilers around that which is obvious. Regardless, spirit=ghost=wraith. While I think it also equals soul, obviously Wizards of tC disagree. What's more obvious is that it can be said (by DM) that his soul was say soul trapped as per spell in a certain item described in the book as opposed to shattered. Also since shattered means "broken into pieces," here is a lead for an epic quest to put Humpty Dumpty together again. His spirit is not what he used to be, so there; Mr. Halaster wasn't facing Mystra(-yl) herself, Karsus. I think his death wasn't as dramatic. As for this fact or his death in general being an inconvenience or not, that's up to the DM. Interesting actually. Sounds contrived as a product (again, not what you post, but what the product states), but interesting. Next time, please provide cogent arguments to support rough language. Please point out my rough language. I stated an opinion that I happen to hold. I was not made aware that personal contrivances required cogency. If that is the case, then I beg forgiveness, but I do believe (if my understanding of the CoC is correct) I'm perfectly within my privileges to state that such a scenario (as I quoted above in the post you replied to) is, in my opinion, the most stupidily contrived crap I have ever seen.
pokie 06-28-07, 06:14 PM	Problem I've got with this is that I'm trying to map out the Entry Well section using D&D tiles and Dwarven Forge, but the map on page 49 doesn't match any area on the 'pretty picture' map on p19. I'm talking in particularly about the area west of location 5. Any thoughts...? :confused: Yes it does - the room of pillars is in the middle of NE corner of p.19. The rhombus-shaped one... Choker corridors are easy to spot too... I can send you a pic if you want
pokie 06-28-07, 06:24 PM	Please point out my rough language. I stated an opinion that I happen to hold. I was not made aware that personal contrivances required cogency. If that is the case, then I beg forgiveness, but I do believe (if my understanding of the CoC is correct) I'm perfectly within my privileges to state that such a scenario (as I quoted above in the post you replied to) is, in my opinion, the most stupidily contrived crap I have ever seen. nice response, overall. I thought the "contrived crap remark" was directed at my comment and, thus, at me by association, rather than at the campaign plot. As it is, this was a misunderstanding. Yeah, their plot isn't... elucidated... to say the least. In terms of Halaster's death anyway. But I think a good DM will take the challenge and work with it. While it may be frustrating, it allows for interesting options, nevertheless. Finally, there were adventures _with_ Halaster a-plenty. Now it can be different... or almost the same, given DM's mood.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 07:16 PM	Why not make him a Demi-Lich? -He would have to be a regular Lich, first. Demiliches are simply Liches that have reached such..."heights" that they transcend their physical manifestation. Mechanically, the Demi-Lich is a template that can only be attached to Liches. I think you guys should expect more of this sort of thing. Clearly the 'epic' factor is being removed from the FR in favor of 'Well the most popular levels of play are from levels 5 to 15'. So you need lots and lots of convoluted and thoughtless plot twists designed to make the epic level NPCs of the realms irrelevant, dead, sleeping or whatever so the PCs can be the heros. -You still haven't provided how you "know" so much about the inner going-ons of the WotC designers. Mind you, we're only speaking about one, two, at the most, three, novels, sourcebooks and adventures, so you really can't cite an ongoing trend.
pokie 06-28-07, 07:19 PM	I concur with L_Karsus... Wizards would be foolish to remove epic pplz - after all that would make the book Power in Faerun useless - and it's a new book they want to sell...
Crust 06-28-07, 10:16 PM	So you need lots and lots of convoluted and thoughtless plot twists designed to make the epic level NPCs of the realms irrelevant, dead, sleeping or whatever so the PCs can be the heros. I think there's some relevance here. Sure, there's not going to be any proof one way or another, but I've had to do this in my campaigns. PCs are in Shadowdale, and one of the players asks, "So where's Elminster at, anyway?" They want to know how I've constructed things, and I'm not going to stonewall. "Elminster was sucked through a portal while battling Shade princes. He's been gone for weeks. No one knows where he is. Read The Return of the Archwizards trilogy and Elminster in Hell to learn more." No, it's not always necessary to even consider the epic NPCs of a given realm, but I like to. BTW, while mind-speaking to Elminster in Silverfall, Storm Silverhand had this to say about Halaster: Mysta above, man, he controls more gates to other planes and places than either of us know. The stability of some cellars in Waterdeep, and the buildings and streets above them, depend on his enchantments. To say nothing of the fact that he polices Undermountain better than any of us ever could, and could ravage any place we fought with the spells he carries--and the contingencies that will be triggered if he dies! ~Silverfall, pg. 358 With this in mind, Halaster's ultimate death should have some dire consequences for the people of Waterdeep and perhaps the northern Sword Coast. Personally, I consider Expedition to Undermountain about as canon as Neverwinter Nights.
pokie 06-28-07, 11:10 PM	I agree; it's not canon as it is not Forgotten Realms; but to play the adventure there, it's prob-ly easy to implement Halaster's temporary destruction.
ericlboyd 06-29-07, 08:25 AM	Problem I've got with this is that I'm trying to map out the Entry Well section using D&D tiles and Dwarven Forge, but the map on page 49 doesn't match any area on the 'pretty picture' map on p19. I'm talking in particularly about the area west of location 5. Any thoughts...? :confused: This is a point of frustration for me. The overall map of Level 1 was supposed to be updated to include the changes showed in the detail map of the area around the entry well in the first adventure. Unfortunately, the "earthquake rift" I introduced to reflect some of the flavor text was not translated onto the general Level 1 map, as I requested. I haven't had a chance to check yet, but I suspect there may be some other problems along the periphery of the smaller map as well (where there are long passages "running off the map"). --Eric
Crust 06-29-07, 09:24 AM	This is a point of frustration for me. The overall map of Level 1 was supposed to be updated to include the changes showed in the detail map of the area around the entry well in the first adventure. Unfortunately, the "earthquake rift" I introduced to reflect some of the flavor text was not translated onto the general Level 1 map, as I requested. That is unsettling and disappointing. Ignoring a Realms architect? :nonono:
Light_Colonel 06-29-07, 10:52 AM	I think there's some relevance here. Sure, there's not going to be any proof one way or another, but I've had to do this in my campaigns. PCs are in Shadowdale, and one of the players asks, "So where's Elminster at, anyway?" They want to know how I've constructed things, and I'm not going to stonewall. "Elminster was sucked through a portal while battling Shade princes. He's been gone for weeks. No one knows where he is. Read The Return of the Archwizards trilogy and Elminster in Hell to learn more." No, it's not always necessary to even consider the epic NPCs of a given realm, but I like to. BTW, while mind-speaking to Elminster in Silverfall, Storm Silverhand had this to say about Halaster: Mysta above, man, he controls more gates to other planes and places than either of us know. The stability of some cellars in Waterdeep, and the buildings and streets above them, depend on his enchantments. To say nothing of the fact that he polices Undermountain better than any of us ever could, and could ravage any place we fought with the spells he carries--and the contingencies that will be triggered if he dies! ~Silverfall, pg. 358 With this in mind, Halaster's ultimate death should have some dire consequences for the people of Waterdeep and perhaps the northern Sword Coast. Personally, I consider Expedition to Undermountain about as canon as Neverwinter Nights. Well, it is canon, like it or not. You do bring up an interesting point with that quote though. What sort of possibilities could this lead to....
pokie 06-29-07, 12:32 PM	This is a point of frustration for me. The overall map of Level 1 was supposed to be updated to include the changes showed in the detail map of the area around the entry well in the first adventure. Unfortunately, the "earthquake rift" I introduced to reflect some of the flavor text was not translated onto the general Level 1 map, as I requested. I haven't had a chance to check yet, but I suspect there may be some other problems along the periphery of the smaller map as well (where there are long passages "running off the map"). --Eric No the map is good, I checked; it's just that earth quake rift is missing.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 12:37 PM	i've just had a spot of inspiration. last time halaster left undermountain, we got halasters high harvesttide. now if he's dead this means the man has left the building. in which case has anyone from water deep mentioned anything about unusual numbers of strange monsters rampaging through the streets, or is all quiet on the western front. if the second is the case, then he aitent dead. on the flip side if he is dead waterdeep will be a smoking ruin in a couple of months. DOH! just read on of the earlier posts which come to a similar conclusion
pokie 06-29-07, 12:40 PM	i've just had a spot of inspiration. last time halaster left undermountain, we got halasters high harvesttide. now if he's dead this means the man has left the building. in which case has anyone from water deep mentioned anything about unusual numbers of strange monsters rampaging through the streets, or is all quiet on the western front. if the second is the case, then he aitent dead. on the flip side if he is dead waterdeep will be a smoking ruin in a couple of months. Nice try; remember, reading the books first helps thoroughly ;). I read both and it seems that the new Undermountain's structure has little to do with the old; some portals have gone haywire, but none of the rather _major_ effects of higharvestide are repeated. I just say it's up to DM.
dave_the_DM 06-29-07, 01:49 PM	Each DM to his own. I found the infomation on levels never really detailed before facinating and well done. However, having run UM for so many years for a variety of groups, I can't say that the storyline is all that appealing to me. I am starting a new UM/ waterdeep campaign with an new group (a 40 year old mom with her 14 year old son, and a 38 year old mom with here 17 year old daughter!). They have played Neverwinter Nights extensively, but never paper and pencil... so this should be a trip. I am starting in a small hamlet north of Waterdeep in the year 1357DR, thus all of this won't apply for years in game time :D.
pokie 06-29-07, 02:49 PM	Each DM to his own. I found the infomation on levels never really detailed before facinating and well done. However, having run UM for so many years for a variety of groups, I can't say that the storyline is all that appealing to me. I am starting a new UM/ waterdeep campaign with an new group (a 40 year old mom with her 14 year old son, and a 38 year old mom with here 17 year old daughter!). They have played Neverwinter Nights extensively, but never paper and pencil... so this should be a trip. I am starting in a small hamlet north of Waterdeep in the year 1357DR, thus all of this won't apply for years in game time :D. 1357! I assume that you do realize what that means, right? :D:D:D
SoulCatcher78 06-29-07, 03:10 PM	Yes it does - the room of pillars is in the middle of NE corner of p.19. The rhombus-shaped one... Choker corridors are easy to spot too... I can send you a pic if you want It was the only way I found it using the old version of the maps which labeled the enrance well. Apparently you shouldn't try to match up the entrance area map since they've left off all sorts of important things (the secret door in the entry room chamber is a big one) on the larger map of level 1 (which also doesn't include the gorge/bridge area from the first adventure). If I use that part of the adventure, I think I'll just leave out the gorge and collapsed areas for the sake of continuity and add some random walls of force or pinched walls to herd them where they need to be.
pokie 06-29-07, 03:20 PM	It was the only way I found it using the old version of the maps which labeled the enrance well. Apparently you shouldn't try to match up the entrance area map since they've left off all sorts of important things (the secret door in the entry room chamber is a big one) on the larger map of level 1 (which also doesn't include the gorge/bridge area from the first adventure). If I use that part of the adventure, I think I'll just leave out the gorge and collapsed areas for the sake of continuity and add some random walls of force or pinched walls to herd them where they need to be. As you wish, but I simply dl-ed the lvl 1 map from WotC and added the gorge there in photoshop. Here's the new improved lvl 1 map: http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3517/frmaplorescopyzz0.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frmaplorescopyzz0.jpg) Hope you like!
Shiftkitty 06-29-07, 03:40 PM	Ok, this was fun to write. Fun to read, as well. It was even more fun to just report it and move on as though nothing had happened, and even more MORE fun to think that this guy could be so bothered by us as to HAVE to react. Nothing says "you guys control part of my life" more than that! I wonder if he used to get beat up by D&D geeks?
pokie 06-29-07, 03:45 PM	Fun to read, as well. It was even more fun to just report it and move on as though nothing had happened, and even more MORE fun to think that this guy could be so bothered by us as to HAVE to react. Nothing says "you guys control part of my life" more than that! I wonder if he used to get beat up by D&D geeks? I enjoyed writing it, so he wasn't "controlling" my life. Also, I reported him too :).
dave_the_DM 06-29-07, 04:45 PM	1357! I assume that you do realize what that means, right? :D:D:D You mean, running the "Time of Troubles" storyline? :D Yep.
pokie 06-29-07, 04:46 PM	You mean, running the "Time of Troubles" storyline? :D Yep. :D
dave_the_DM 06-29-07, 06:41 PM	:D This is going to be a trip. My GF understands whats going on, but her sister and niece can't quite get their heads wrapped around the paper and pencil thing. The girl actually asked me, "How do you respawn?" I was incredulous. They are very ethusiastic though, and I think everybody is in for a real treat.
Lord Karsus 06-29-07, 06:59 PM	The girl actually asked me, "How do you respawn?" -Heh, heh, heh...
Shiftkitty 06-29-07, 07:01 PM	Okay, you had to see this coming... Respawn Necromancy (Death) Level: Wiz 9, Death 9 Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 action (see text) Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Prior to entering a dungeon, keep, or any place where there may be potential danger, the caster designates a "respawn" point and casts this spell on him/herself. At the moment of death (either zero hp or at -10 hp if this option is used), the caster magically appears at the "respawn" point at full hit points with all damage undone and all of his/her original equipment. Anything acquired while in the dungeon remains within the dungeon. After respawning, the caster is stunned for 1d4 rounds while (s)he gets regains orientation and bearings, at which time the caster may resume normal activities. If the "respawn" point is occupied, the caster appears in the nearest available space, which may have the adverse effect of appearing in front of a charging horse, with one's back to a mugger, in the path of an assassin's attack, etc (DM's choice). Note that it is even possible to respawn standing atop someone, who may or may not be able to support your weight. The somatic component of this spell is to draw an "X" on the designated "respawn" point. Not bad for making it up on the fly.
Lord Karsus 06-29-07, 07:05 PM	Not bad for making it up on the fly. -No, not at all. You should include something about being invincible, and perhaps under the influence of the Blink spell for the first few seconds after respawning, though. ;)
Shiftkitty 06-29-07, 07:11 PM	I was thinking about that, but the bulk of my respawning experience has been through Half-Life. When you play online, you're vulnerable to attack. If your connection is slow, some dink can get easy kills on you. I was just thinking, though, that after a delve, the caster may want to erase the "X" lest he go into another dungeon and respawn at an old site.
Crust 06-29-07, 07:18 PM	-No, not at all. You should include something about being invincible, and perhaps under the influence of the Blink spell for the first few seconds after respawning, though. ;) But that would eliminate the possibility of that PC getting spawn-killed. :gah:
SoulCatcher78 06-29-07, 10:01 PM	As you wish, but I simply dl-ed the lvl 1 map from WotC and added the gorge there in photoshop. Here's the new improved lvl 1 map: http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3517/frmaplorescopyzz0.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frmaplorescopyzz0.jpg) Hope you like! Well done,I hand't thought about that :headsmack: I'm off to copy and print that one out.
pokie 06-30-07, 12:55 AM	Well done,I hand't thought about that :headsmack: I'm off to copy and print that one out. I glad you like :D.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 03:08 PM	Yeah, in WoW, you respawn at the site of your death (although your soul appears in the nearest graveyard and you have to walk), but you can be killed the minute you reappear. My Orc got killed SO many times in Stormwind that way, that I had no armor left before I even appeared on my own screen (armor takes damage, and eventually is useless). People with faster connections rule. :( However, you can always summon some guildies to eliminate your enemies BEFORE you respawn... thats always fun. :dancin: I tried teaching an entire group (about seven people) the game all at once, but I gave up after the first session. After that, I added the ones still interested (two) to my regular game one at a time. Its so much easier if you automatically make them go last (I call it 'beginner's initiative'), and let them just watch what others are doing. Unfortunely, it doesn't sound like you had that option.
dave_the_DM 06-30-07, 06:31 PM	Okay, you had to see this coming... Not bad for making it up on the fly. Yes, very good. Now, lets create an item, and make a magic ring with limited charges...lol. "Ring of Respawning, 3 charges"
Shiftkitty 06-30-07, 10:40 PM	The ring's power is activated by striking against the ground where you want to respawn. A Greater Ring of Respawning would have the Move option described below. My husband had the solution to having to erase your respawning point with the spell. Once the spell has been cast and used, the mark disappears and a new one must be cast. Also, he suggested that every two levels above the minimum level required, you can "move" the respawn point. That way, a powerful spellcaster doesn't have to respawn all the way back at the front door of the dungeon. He can get so far, maybe get past a dangerous spot, then move the respawn point to save travel and further danger. Plus, it would help if you had to destroy a bridge earlier in the run and would now have to cross the gap somehow. Okay, we need some Item Creation stats for this ring! Obviously, you'd have to be able to cast teleport without error, mending? make whole?, heal, hmmm, looks like this ring might have to be crafted by a cleric...
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 11:07 PM	Don't forget a 'Hearthstone", you just gotta have a hearthstone to do it right. BTW, the Diablo rules for D&D actually had a set of rules for respawning, and other video-game oddities, like potions that increased you attributes. The rules for magic weapons were VERY well done, and allowed over a million differnt combinations of randomly generated weapons. I should dig those out...
pokie 07-01-07, 04:31 AM	potions of specific uses of wish would be awesome.
Shiftkitty 07-01-07, 10:23 AM	I saw the Diablo/D&D rules once at my local Barnes & Noble. It flew off the shelf and they never put another one up. I gotta get me one.
Pallis 07-02-07, 05:46 PM	Thanks for the map, Pokie - invaluable help and makes it all a lot easier to understand. Top chap! :)
pokie 07-02-07, 06:46 PM	:cool: