Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1 ton ghost 08-06-07, 01:46 AM	someone posted something a while ago seeming fairly accurate accounting to their real world counterparts (more or less) like this i think. these are only approximations to the flavor and feel cuz', let's face it, most of all fantasy text and ideas are cannibalized versions of our own countries, fairy tales, and so on. calimshan: pre-ottoman turky, iraq (babylon), etc. cormyr: medieval england/germany, france even? rashemon (sp?): ukraine, slavic countries, russia perhaps chessenta: greece the shaar: sarengheti/kalahari (kenya, zaire) chult: amazonia, the congo icewind dale: scandanavia mulhorand: (too easy) pharonic egypt moonshaes: northern england; celts, scots, etc. zhentil keep: south central L.A... anauroch: sahara in some parts, australian wasteland in others durpar/estagund: india shou lands: china (the dragonwall? wtf?) hordelands: mongolia northern cormanthor: carpathia, romania amn: spain granted, some liberties taken, but alot of the characteristics are remarkably similar. thoughts, ideas?
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 10:17 AM	-Ideally, there are no direct Faerūn-to-Earth analgues. Faerūn is it's own distinct place, with it's own distinct cultures, and so on. But, just by the nature of the beast, bits and pieces of some Earth cultures have synthesized themselves on Toril through. It's inevitable. -In other words, the cultures themselves are in no way related to these actual cultures. Taking a step back, however, there are many instances where it appears that designers looked at actual cultures to "get ideas", and what not. However, these "ideas" simple began starting points, and the Faerūnian cultures evolved past them, to become their own "idea". -The only real exceptions to this are Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara. While most of Faerūn has evolved past the minor ideas that were borrowed from actual places/mythology, the three above named continents were created too close to their actual analogues, and, as such, were never given much of a chance to evolve. Many of us are working to fix that with Kara-Tur, however. Check out the Kara-Tur Re-Dux thread, to see many of the changes we've envisioned to the continent, to make it more unique.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 11:31 AM	Just responding to say I'm not going to respond to another one of these threads. I'm getting old and tired. ;)
Old Sage 08-06-07, 12:24 PM	The original, core part of the Realms is not analogous to our world, and our-world norms can't be assumed to apply. Some of the places mentioned however, like Kara-Tur, are among those exceptions that are based on Earth, in their published forms, for various reasons... excepting the Shaar. Ed discussed a little about his original Moonshae/LeGuin-styled islands here (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/jg-moonshaes.htm). Additionally, I'd recommend you read through Ed's April 13th '06 replies over at Candlekeep, for his thoughts on the sources of inspirations for some of the areas you've mentioned here. They are required reading for any particular Realms devotee who wishes to have access to accurate facts as they've been determined by Ed himself. I suggest you read through them, rather than rely on some of the information that will likely be posted here by certain supposed fans making nonsense comments about such comparisons even when there is direct Realmslore clearly proving how invalid their comments are. And finally, consider this, from Ed's '06 replies:- "...but it should always be remembered that the Realms is NOT an analogy or copy of Earth; what we may see as medieval in some ways, and Renaissance in others, when looking at Faerūn, is inevitably seeing things from our point of view: the Realms may develop in very different ways than the real world did."
1 ton ghost 08-06-07, 02:24 PM	oh, touched a nerve or 2 i see... see this is why i am alot of others kick off posts w/ "approximations" or "ideas gathered from", never was it claimed verbatim or this is now realm's gospel. yeah, we know it's a "distinct plane" and no one is trying to undermine your own precious concept of a GAME, these where observations and nothing more. again, when someeone stresses that liberties are taken and these are not exact, it would do well to remember (which is more often than not, convieniently forgotten in the angry feedback). there are undeniable similarities, some of them are pretty damn obvious, much like the bitterness of unappreciated scholars that was so quickly revealed afterwards...
GothicDan 08-06-07, 02:45 PM	The main problem is that the "similarities that are so damn obvious" (SOME of them) really aren't obvious at all, and very often a single Faerunian culture has similarities that can be found in numerous Earth cultures to one extent or another, making any even rough analogue hard to do. For instance, a lot of people think that Cormyr's mounted, armored knights automatically make them English - ignoring all of the other nations that had a mounted cavalry, monarchs, and the like. And ignoring the lack of anything remotely like the Divine Right of Kings or Christianity.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 03:24 PM	there are undeniable similarities, some of them are pretty damn obvious, much like the bitterness of unappreciated scholars that was so quickly revealed afterwards... -As I said before, yes, certain areas of the map might have borrowed an idea here or there from an actual culture. The fact though, that these ideas then evolved, and took up a form of their own really disbars the notion that these places on Faerūn's map are clear analogues. They aren't.
1 ton ghost 08-06-07, 04:54 PM	well said. these were just observations, Hell, most of them weren't even mine. it just seemed kinda' obvious that, for example, the architecture, genies, pashas and so on of Calimsham seem pretty close to our Middle Eastern friends (and antagonists). but, you start mentioning Tyr, Shar, and so on, yeah, that might get your stoned to death on the streets of Falluja. hordelands mirror the mongol "hordes", unther looks alot like Babylon (gods are carbon copies anyway) and so on. i had simply thought this was a way to add more depth, not hijack someone's campaign or their own grasp of perceieved realm's history/geography. yes, FrgtnRlms has been running long enough to have it's own distinctive cultures that have no real world bearing. no one is arguing that: Thay for example. that's pretty out there and stands on it's own for what it's worth. there are simply others Earth cultures/countries that you can't help but see influencing the creative process, no more, no less...
GothicDan 08-06-07, 05:47 PM	1 ton ghost, you seem far more logical in your assertions/thoughts about the Realms and real life cultures than most who have brought up the subject. I apologize for being a bit touchy; but people who try to profess that "Zomg Cormyr is SO 100% England" or whatnot (funny because there's a camp that says it's OBVIOUSLY France, when the two cultures are immensely different), and who refuse to see the major differences, are way, way too common around here. But you're right that some cultures were made with direct RL influences. Calimshan was originally a little too "Arabic" in the eyes of many, so Steve Schend specifically added some Ottoman and Byzantine influence. The end result I think is pretty distinct, since so many cultures (different, but appropriate geographically) have melded into one. Then you have the TSR add-ons: Unther, Mulhorand, the Moonshaes (Celtic and Norse), and the like. Those I really don't like (and I LOVE Norse culture).
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 07:39 PM	Then you have the TSR add-ons: Unther, Mulhorand, the Moonshaes (Celtic and Norse), and the like. Those I really don't like (and I LOVE Norse culture). -As we both know, the amount of effort put into "emancipating" these places from their original "ideas" varied. ;)
Dark Wizard 08-06-07, 07:47 PM	Though I must say, with the tidbits on the Old Empires found throughout recent sources that region is starting to diverge heavily from it's FR10 origins. It's on its way to emerging into its own. If only they would put out a new regional sourcebook on the area, perhaps get Scott Bennie to be co-author but this time tell him to do the opposite of what TSR commissioned him for in FR10.
Old Sage 08-06-07, 08:52 PM	there are undeniable similarities, some of them are pretty damn obvious...They're not as undeniable or as obvious as you make them sound. A thorough reading of Ed's original thoughts on some of those regions you've mentioned, would make that evident. ...much like the bitterness of unappreciated scholars that was so quickly revealed afterwards...*shakes head*
Wonzling 08-07-07, 05:03 AM	Maybe one should add which detail of flavor underlies the perceived analogies. E.g. Calimshan has a clear Arabian Nights flavor, but it definitely doesn't stem from religious details, since the gods are the same as the rest of the core lands. I believe the similarities rather lie in Calimshan's architecture, its people's attitudes and the use of magic.
Faraer 08-07-07, 10:01 AM	Then you have the TSR add-ons: Unther, Mulhorand, the Moonshaes (Celtic and Norse), and the like.The Old Empires are original, but Scott Bennie made their Earth influences more literal in FR10. As for bitterness, 1 ton ghost, please forgive a little impatience after fielding this question (and its accompanying misconception) dozens of times.
GothicDan 08-07-07, 12:57 PM	I would have liked to have seen the original Mulhorand, personally. A weird desert culture ruled largely by priests of Set would have done much to debunk rumors of there being not enough "evil nations" in Faerun.
1 ton ghost 08-07-07, 02:15 PM	well said. seems like Thay, OLD Calimsham, OLD Unther, and Zhentil Keep (moonsea as a whole) are largely evil. you would think there would be more, but that the designer's artistic license, not mine. the rest are in the underdark i suppose, but you gotta' be evil, ruthless, etc., just to stay alive down there. i had to dig this up cuz' we RP rather seriously and give out indie XP based on dramatic improvisation, etc. i always push and reward that initiative, encourages game growth, more plot hooks etc. that is, when you meet an NPC from shou empire, his name is probably "wo ping" and he sounds like chow yun fat when he speaks (in chondathan anyway), so, yeah, do the voices as best as you can, employ what you know from our world to that one to make the character more "realistic" another thing IMO, there shouldn't be a Common, language that is. Faerun is huge and really old, each country has it's languages; alzhedo, shaaryan, chondathan, etc., i treat them in game just as is: that area's language, if you can't speak mulani, you'll need to hire a scribe in Thay or Mulhorand. i mean translators were a big big deal and can wreak havoc, another reason to consider Sense Motive Common, to me anyway, seems too easy though i know it facilitates game play and all. it's just, well, when in Rome...
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 02:38 PM	I would have liked to have seen the original Mulhorand, personally. A weird desert culture ruled largely by priests of Set would have done much to debunk rumors of there being not enough "evil nations" in Faerun.You know Dan, every once in awhile someone says something and a lightbulb goes on in my head... What little we know about Imaskar comes from the Mulan, the Mulhorandi and Unthrite decendents of their slaves. Now, we know that a slave is not gonna harbor very good feelings about their masters, so what if most of what we know is really propaganda? :eek: The Imaskar didn't keep slaves from Toril AFAIK, and they only 'pacified' other groups (the Tuigan), and made them part of the Empire. Suppose the Imaskari thought they were bringing culture and enlightenment to the masses? Matbe when they kdnapped the two groups from Messopotamia both were part of large armies about to attack and wipe each other out, or maybe the people who were 'stolen' were in the way of said armies, and the Imaskari thought they were doing them a favor saving them from all the needless blodshed. From everything I've read, the Imaskari were not into wiping races out (as were the Netherese), but rather 'saving them from themselves'. Its a different twist from how they are usually portayed, but I'm sure Britain and the Romans thought they were doing good when they 'pacified savages'. I guess we'll find out when GHotR comes out, eh?
Stigger 08-07-07, 02:54 PM	Personally, I don't have a problem with drawing comparisons between various locales in the Realms and actual Earthen cultures and nations. It provides a frame of reference and starting point from which to add flavor to a campaign, rather than starting from a difficult tabula rasa perspective. It allows for a easy differentiation and flavor to be added without massive amounts of work on the part of the DM... if you prefer the tabula rasa approach, go with it... if not, then the drawing of comparisons is equally valid. The various Realm's locales weren't drawn as 1:1 analogs, certainly not (with a couple of exceptions), but its fairly obvious that the flavors were drawn from real world culture, and so why not use that? By the by, that's an interesting concept there Markus... gonna have to contemplate how best to swipe that from you. :D
Lord Karsus 08-07-07, 11:20 PM	seems like Thay, OLD Calimsham, OLD Unther, and Zhentil Keep (moonsea as a whole) are largely evil. you would think there would be more, but that the designer's artistic license, not mine. -It's much easier to "run" a state that is regarded as 'benevolent' and/or 'neutral' than it is to run a state that is regarded as 'evil'. A lot less problems, internally and externally. another thing IMO, there shouldn't be a Common, language that is. Faerun is huge and really old, each country has it's languages; alzhedo, shaaryan, chondathan, etc., i treat them in game just as is: that area's language, if you can't speak mulani, you'll need to hire a scribe in Thay or Mulhorand. i mean translators were a big big deal and can wreak havoc, another reason to consider Sense Motive Common, to me anyway, seems too easy though i know it facilitates game play and all. it's just, well, when in Rome... -Common is a trade language. All it really is is a mish-mosh of other Faerūnian languages. This allows traders to communicate with one another while visiting foreign locales.
Old Sage 08-08-07, 01:07 AM	another thing IMO, there shouldn't be a Common, language that is. Faerun is huge and really old, each country has it's languages; alzhedo, shaaryan, chondathan, etc., i treat them in game just as is: that area's language, if you can't speak mulani, you'll need to hire a scribe in Thay or Mulhorand. i mean translators were a big big deal and can wreak havoc, another reason to consider Sense Motive Common, to me anyway, seems too easy though i know it facilitates game play and all. it's just, well, when in Rome...'Common' is the trade tongue utilised [and spread] throughout Faerūn via merchants/traders/etc. It is a "universal" tongue. However, there will be different dialects, etc. I will note, also, that current lore would seem to give more focus to the different dialects, like Chondathan and Illuskan or example, while in the older Realmlore, the Common tongue would often feature more frequently.
1 ton ghost 08-08-07, 03:05 AM	universal tounge...yeah i got that in 1st ed. it's a pink elephant and seems utterly unrealistc rationally. guessing it is intended to "keep the ball rolling" and so on. still. we're adults, we shouldn't have to be spoon fed simplicity just to placate others. i guess this is just another example of Rule Zero on this end and all, but still, common doesn't add up (IMO). i understand the mechanics and "playability", i'm only arguing that it feels wrong and unrealistic. beyond a system of numbers, "yes's, no's", simple communiques, it's incredibly bombastic (IMO) to assume everyone is on the level on a planet more diverse/larger/older than earth w/ so many infinite possibilities and gods dipping their fingers in every pie, i mean, damn...c'mon. specially the gods, some cultures are more predisposed to one or another and language is a tool to question and learn. re'ligio (religion) "to reconnect". only way to do that is by asking questions, using the brain your god(s) gave you. now, those questions, languages...venturing a theory or 2 here... if anything, there would be more diversity, more languages as more and more budding countries, new races, everything popping up would lend credit to these ppl finding their own cultural identity, and thusly, languages. common more or less strips that away. i know they printed a vast and impressive list in the Player's Guide to Faerun, so there is some higher thinking there, but Common doesn't make sense. even for trade. Hell, even look at us and the Brits. we both speak English, but they dig metric. that's how they conduct trade, we are a bit different, so, there are conversions and so on. i know this is an overgeneralization, but bear with me. another more believable application (translators/scriveners) for the learned, particularly wizards/bards. don't keep reducing them to spell slingers and item creationists. someone that knows a few languages outside the region's automatic and bonus ones would have considerable clout, assuming common didn't exist. adds more depth and use to Decipher Script, facilitates better RP @ the table, and is a good motivator to stop the "kick in the door" style everyone is intimately familiar w/ by now. watch and see how suddenly resourceful the PC's are when they port into a land where they can "draw the sounds" but no one is savvy w/ them. like busting traps. you could even award extra XP. we (my groups anyway) always break them (languages) up, and if you know it, so be it. not surprisingly, a great number of them conveiniently choose a Chondathan speaking nation for character gen. @ start as it seems the most prolific. so, in a psedo-earth way, we kinda' regard it as English in a sense. hope that's not too pretentious to non brits/americans/canadians. illuskan is similiar to nordic/germanic tongues alzhedo-arabic/aramaic rashemi-slavic, russian tashalan-bantu, swaheli (sp?) mulani-farsi or (heh), egyptian... etc. etc. this just help us get in character. we use accents, demeanor, anything to flesh the game out more. it would cut down on excessive NPC's too. you're in memnon wintering away from waterdeep for example, so you take in Haji to help you out w/ alzhedo speaking ppl and so on, not deal w/ a DM struggling to find yet another name for john doe in sembia. drop the 2 ranks. this makes Comp. Lang. and Tongues a powerful weapon too. consider the possibilities. like today, you're best attack is probably w/ a cell phone, not a gun... languages shouldn't just be suddenly uploaded into a character's brain when he spends the ranks. takes time but that's more of an XP distribution/learning/training argument. anyway, i'm rambling yet again. my apologies.
Stigger 08-08-07, 02:23 PM	Interesting thoughts on language... personally, I've always liked the idea of common, kinda like an Esperanto that actually worked. It always made sense to me, in that trade and commerce are so incredibly widespread, along with travel in general, at least comparatively with its Earthen counterpart, that a common language makes sense to facilitate that trade. My own view of it is that it is a purely utilitarian language, certainly not well suited to poetry or other artistic or lyric uses, but useful for getting by and asking where the jakes are and how much something costs. That's where the more regional/cultural languages come into play. As to the language equivalencies, I tend to think of Chondathan as French personally, that whole Lingua Franca thing tends to predispose me to that view. I usually equated Alzhedo with Persian rather than Arabic... Persians generally had a much greater society historically speaking, at least as far as I'm concerned, or at least a more academically inclined one until the Arabic sorts made off with the Peacock Throne and used it to bankroll their growth of civilization...
1 ton ghost 08-08-07, 04:56 PM	ii've heard of esperanto, but i have no idea what it is really? illuminate me as for the chondathan, you're right, it would probably be more akin to french, the court language, right? and persian/alzehdo, a good point, kinda' torn.
Stigger 08-09-07, 03:18 AM	Esperanto was an abortive attempt to create a 'universal' language that started a while back, had a tiny little heydey in the 70's or so, and then for the most part died... think its origins was back in the 30's, but it's been a long while since I've read up on it, so the memory is probably faulty on that point. Was something of an amalgamation of the romance languages if I recall correctly, that was supposed to replace every other language out there, but I'm sure you can guess how that went. ;) Yes, French was the court language of most of Europe for a good, long while... centuries really. English is somewhat taking its place of late, but last I looked French was still a bit more common in a lot of the undeveloped world than English is... you hear a lot about the Sun never setting on the British Empire, but no one seems to ever remember that the French weren't exactly far behind them in that claim.
GothicDan 08-09-07, 01:42 PM	I always thought that English was the 'common' language for a long time, and French for awhile was the 'businessman's' language. Of course, as pointed out, English (and probably Chinese or Japanese) is usurping it, since nowadays usability far outweighs tradition, and the French aren't exactly cornering many markets.
Stigger 08-10-07, 04:18 AM	French was more political in use, rather than economic for the most part... a more diplomatic tongue seemed to be the perception of it, at least as far as I can gather. Besides, they tended to educate the natives more than their other European counterparts as I understand it, so their language spread more than most... generally speaking. Could be mistaken about it, been a long time since I messed with those sorts of books.
Razz 08-10-07, 12:18 PM	Personally, I don't have a problem with drawing comparisons between various locales in the Realms and actual Earthen cultures and nations. It provides a frame of reference and starting point from which to add flavor to a campaign, rather than starting from a difficult tabula rasa perspective. It allows for a easy differentiation and flavor to be added without massive amounts of work on the part of the DM... if you prefer the tabula rasa approach, go with it... if not, then the drawing of comparisons is equally valid. The various Realm's locales weren't drawn as 1:1 analogs, certainly not (with a couple of exceptions), but its fairly obvious that the flavors were drawn from real world culture, and so why not use that? By the by, that's an interesting concept there Markus... gonna have to contemplate how best to swipe that from you. :D This is how I run my Realms games. I try my best to make them distinct from the "Earth" analogies, but with players (especially new players) and how much time a DM has, it's just easier and quicker to use a real-world analogy and the players can easily relate to it because of the familiarity. Another thing it helps with is the player's vision of his character. "I want a viking like character in the game" or "I want a Buddhist monk type character". When a player says that in a Forgotten Realms game, you instantly (if you know the Realms enough) can associate a particular region in Toril to base that character's background and life and to help fully flesh out more of your game by introducing unique elements to the region (which may or may not be covered already). That is what I love about the Realms. It's various cultures, with a little bit of each of them analogous or influenced by real-world regions and eras for everyone to easily relate to, then given a unique society and culture to differentiate it from its Earth-like analog, and you're world remains the same world. No more "Sorry, Bob, no Egyptian-like setting in this world. You'll have to come from another world or something to do that." Now if the folks at WotC started churning out regional books for FR again so they can turn away from this trend of making the regions TOO much like their Earth-analogs, I'm all for it.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 02:26 PM	Of course, there's also the fact to remember that Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romanian, etc. were all just 'vulgar Latin' to begin with... So real-life Earth did have something very similar to a Common at first. Knowing Latin to a degree, I can understand a good amount of Spanish, Romanian, and Italian, and pick out a sentence of French now and then (French really changed a lot of things compared to other Romance languages).
1 ton ghost 08-10-07, 07:36 PM	i guess i could've cut through all this crap and not have wasted as much of everybodies' time by pointing out non-human regions/language. even when they were still "demi-humans", how do find a close 2nd on Earth? if that's not purely realms specific on toril, then what? i mean, mulhourand, unther seem pretty earthy, and on the other extreme, there are, non-human and very alien/original nationalities/languages/etc. in FR you can have your pie and eat it too! original motivation was to say that realms designers made some allusions to some concepts/historical references from our past on Earth as for non humansyou see some influeces, artistically speaking, but pure? -proud full bearded dwarves w/ steins of beer, very industrious, and organized/clannish (most are lawful), alot of tuetonic, germanic signs and symbolism -elves: and i think we should be borrowing from them, not vice versa, their architechure particularly and Green Mentality alot of ppl see them in a classical Helenistic Greek way, some celt influences, some like a more primitive/natual culture like early native americans (particularly wild elves), etc. this just reinforces (IMO) the language debate earlier (Common v. No Common (indigenous lang's) they are distinct and the realm's got their slant on them as well, but they are borrowed earth concepts. everything we see/know in this world we compare from ourselves, it's the first thing you learn; you impress yourself onto something to get a measure of it/understand it how it relates to you. and anyway, i think fairy tales, legends, yarns, etc., predate TSR or there is a re-animated hans christian anderson in a starbucks near WotC and i have a weakness for undead.
MarkHall 08-13-07, 08:10 PM	calimshan: pre-ottoman turky, iraq (babylon), etc. I place it more at pre-Reconquista Spain, myself, with Zakhara being more similar to the Middle East, itself.
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 10:14 PM	I place it more at pre-Reconquista Spain, myself, with Zakhara being more similar to the Middle East, itself. -Steve Schend has specifically mentioned that he gave Calimshan a Turkish/Ottoman feel to it.
MarkHall 08-13-07, 10:29 PM	Yes, but I'm not Steve Schend. ;-)
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 10:57 PM	-I'm just sayin'.