first humans on Toril [Archive] - Wizards Community

first humans on Toril [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
maddog0714
07-18-07, 04:48 PM At what era, or year did humans first inhabit Toril? Where did they come from?
I always assumed they migrated somehow from Grewhawk.
Faraer
07-18-07, 04:57 PM Humans are native to Toril, one of the Creator Races, known to have existed since the Days of Thunder, the earliest historical era (-35,000 to -30,000 DR).

Why did you assume that?
maddog0714
07-18-07, 05:06 PM I thought the dwarves, elves and giants were here before humans? I thought I read it somewhere.... I had no basis for assuming humans migrated from Grewhawk... I just made it up for my campaign since grewhawk is older than toril
Faraer
07-18-07, 05:10 PM They achieved advanced civilization later, but were around at least as long. Serpent Kingdoms is one of the best sources for this really early history.

The Realms were created either about 5 or about 12 years earlier than the World of Greyhawk, depending on whether you're considering the proto-Greyhawk or the finally published geography.
maddog0714
07-18-07, 05:38 PM So did elves, dwarves giants and humans arrive on toril at the exact same time, (Or created by the creaters at the same time.... In my campaign, thats just a fading belief, like christianity)
I'm just trying to get an idea around what time in history the first known existence of humans on Toril... you say around -30,000? sounds good to me.
However, Grewhawk, is older than toril.... I remember grewhawk in the late seventies, and the realms didn't come out until 1985.
As far as planetary age, I don't know.... I would have to give it to grewhawk, if for no other reason Gygax predates Greenwood.
Faraer
07-18-07, 06:33 PM Dwarves and elves are thought to come from other worlds, but I don't have definite dates to hand and I'm not sure there are any. Giants are thought to be native to Toril.

As I said, Ed created the Realms in 1967, several years before Gary's campaign and the earliest World of Greyhawk. It was published later (Old Grey Box in 1987, first featured in Dragon c. 1980).
Old Sage
07-18-07, 08:29 PM Ed's provided some intriguing tidbits through his replies at Candlekeep.

For the most part humans, as a race, are native to Toril. They are considered one of the five Creator races and as such, have a long and extensive history on Toril. We do know that some humans arrived from other worlds -- such as those who would eventually migrate to Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara -- as Powers & Pantheons and the FRCS note.

Judging from tidbits of info, from Ed, and various FR sources (in particular Races of Faerūn)... they've either evolved naturally, or they were created by the gods in Faerūn's ancient past.
Old Sage
07-18-07, 08:32 PM I'd also recommend you pick up a copy of Grand History of the Realms when it's released later this year, since it'll feature some new lore on the Creator Races themselves.
Lord Karsus
07-19-07, 01:11 AM Dwarves and elves are thought to come from other worlds, but I don't have definite dates to hand and I'm not sure there are any.

-Sun and Moon Elves first came to Faerūn in about -24,500 DR. The Wood Elves already existed on Faerūn when they arrived, as did the Lythari, Avariel, and Dark Elves. They all arrived at different times before the Sun and Moon Elves. Aquatic Elves, and Star Elves came afterwards, at different points of time.

-Might I suggest going to Brian's website while we wait for AGHotR? www.geonomicon.com
Suin Bahhar
07-19-07, 03:05 PM So humans behaved like monkeys for several millenia. Magic wielding pointystick toting shaman like babboons! Love it! ;)
Faraer
07-19-07, 03:13 PM Only if you think pre-urban human society and culture is 'like monkeys'.
XHereticX
07-21-07, 10:51 PM So humans behaved like monkeys for several millenia. Magic wielding pointystick toting shaman like babboons! Love it! ;)

No, more like they were in chains serving as waterboys for talking lizards with not much hope in sight for future civilization.

The evolution to monkeys comes later;)
Stonehinge
07-22-07, 03:14 PM The novel Elves of Evermeet talks about the earliest elves. But I believe that all races are native with infusions from other worlds. Orcs and humans are two that come to mind who had infusions from other worlds.
Lord Karsus
07-22-07, 05:46 PM The novel Elves of Evermeet talks about the earliest elves.

-Not really, unless you consider a brief mention (Avariel and Lythari, for example) 'taked about'. Elves of Evermeet primarily concerns itself with the survivors of Tintageer, who founded Sharlarion and Occidian.
Suin Bahhar
07-24-07, 10:44 AM So no known plausible creation myths exist for the humans, right? The creation of the Realms sphere was finished and Ao noticed there were little hairless apelike creatures running around already, amongst 4 other creator races and the animal and plant kingdom. These early humans did wait a long time to flourish. That's why I think they must have had an only marginally better culture than babboons. :P

Babboons do have a pretty highly evolved familybased hunting culture, not unlike real world early humanlike primates. Insert limited magic use and they could maybe form some more advanced culture with witchcraft and shamanism. They do seem to resemble an image we're all familiar with... Orcs!
Lord Karsus
07-26-07, 08:13 PM So no known plausible creation myths exist for the humans, right?

-There is nothing specific written as to how Humans came about, as to not offend anyone. That way, if you want your Humans to have evolved, fine. If you want your Humans to have been created by aliens, fine. If you want your Humans to have been created by a deity, or deities, fine.
boards
07-26-07, 09:18 PM Isnt there something about the Unicorn run being revered as the birthplace of humans and other species native to the realms? I'm sure I've read that in one of the sourcebooks.:confused:
Lord Karsus
07-28-07, 08:22 PM Isnt there something about the Unicorn run being revered as the birthplace of humans and other species native to the realms? I'm sure I've read that in one of the sourcebooks.:confused:

-Unicorn Run is a site revered by the Fey and Sylvan Folk, as well as Druidic folk, but what you just mentioned is not something I've ever heard of.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 07-18-07, 04:48 PM	At what era, or year did humans first inhabit Toril? Where did they come from? I always assumed they migrated somehow from Grewhawk.
Faraer 07-18-07, 04:57 PM	Humans are native to Toril, one of the Creator Races, known to have existed since the Days of Thunder, the earliest historical era (-35,000 to -30,000 DR). Why did you assume that?
maddog0714 07-18-07, 05:06 PM	I thought the dwarves, elves and giants were here before humans? I thought I read it somewhere.... I had no basis for assuming humans migrated from Grewhawk... I just made it up for my campaign since grewhawk is older than toril
Faraer 07-18-07, 05:10 PM	They achieved advanced civilization later, but were around at least as long. Serpent Kingdoms is one of the best sources for this really early history. The Realms were created either about 5 or about 12 years earlier than the World of Greyhawk, depending on whether you're considering the proto-Greyhawk or the finally published geography.
maddog0714 07-18-07, 05:38 PM	So did elves, dwarves giants and humans arrive on toril at the exact same time, (Or created by the creaters at the same time.... In my campaign, thats just a fading belief, like christianity) I'm just trying to get an idea around what time in history the first known existence of humans on Toril... you say around -30,000? sounds good to me. However, Grewhawk, is older than toril.... I remember grewhawk in the late seventies, and the realms didn't come out until 1985. As far as planetary age, I don't know.... I would have to give it to grewhawk, if for no other reason Gygax predates Greenwood.
Faraer 07-18-07, 06:33 PM	Dwarves and elves are thought to come from other worlds, but I don't have definite dates to hand and I'm not sure there are any. Giants are thought to be native to Toril. As I said, Ed created the Realms in 1967, several years before Gary's campaign and the earliest World of Greyhawk. It was published later (Old Grey Box in 1987, first featured in Dragon c. 1980).
Old Sage 07-18-07, 08:29 PM	Ed's provided some intriguing tidbits through his replies at Candlekeep. For the most part humans, as a race, are native to Toril. They are considered one of the five Creator races and as such, have a long and extensive history on Toril. We do know that some humans arrived from other worlds -- such as those who would eventually migrate to Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara -- as Powers & Pantheons and the FRCS note. Judging from tidbits of info, from Ed, and various FR sources (in particular Races of Faerūn)... they've either evolved naturally, or they were created by the gods in Faerūn's ancient past.
Old Sage 07-18-07, 08:32 PM	I'd also recommend you pick up a copy of Grand History of the Realms when it's released later this year, since it'll feature some new lore on the Creator Races themselves.
Lord Karsus 07-19-07, 01:11 AM	Dwarves and elves are thought to come from other worlds, but I don't have definite dates to hand and I'm not sure there are any. -Sun and Moon Elves first came to Faerūn in about -24,500 DR. The Wood Elves already existed on Faerūn when they arrived, as did the Lythari, Avariel, and Dark Elves. They all arrived at different times before the Sun and Moon Elves. Aquatic Elves, and Star Elves came afterwards, at different points of time. -Might I suggest going to Brian's website while we wait for AGHotR? www.geonomicon.com
Suin Bahhar 07-19-07, 03:05 PM	So humans behaved like monkeys for several millenia. Magic wielding pointystick toting shaman like babboons! Love it! ;)
Faraer 07-19-07, 03:13 PM	Only if you think pre-urban human society and culture is 'like monkeys'.
XHereticX 07-21-07, 10:51 PM	So humans behaved like monkeys for several millenia. Magic wielding pointystick toting shaman like babboons! Love it! ;) No, more like they were in chains serving as waterboys for talking lizards with not much hope in sight for future civilization. The evolution to monkeys comes later;)
Stonehinge 07-22-07, 03:14 PM	The novel Elves of Evermeet talks about the earliest elves. But I believe that all races are native with infusions from other worlds. Orcs and humans are two that come to mind who had infusions from other worlds.
Lord Karsus 07-22-07, 05:46 PM	The novel Elves of Evermeet talks about the earliest elves. -Not really, unless you consider a brief mention (Avariel and Lythari, for example) 'taked about'. Elves of Evermeet primarily concerns itself with the survivors of Tintageer, who founded Sharlarion and Occidian.
Suin Bahhar 07-24-07, 10:44 AM	So no known plausible creation myths exist for the humans, right? The creation of the Realms sphere was finished and Ao noticed there were little hairless apelike creatures running around already, amongst 4 other creator races and the animal and plant kingdom. These early humans did wait a long time to flourish. That's why I think they must have had an only marginally better culture than babboons. :P Babboons do have a pretty highly evolved familybased hunting culture, not unlike real world early humanlike primates. Insert limited magic use and they could maybe form some more advanced culture with witchcraft and shamanism. They do seem to resemble an image we're all familiar with... Orcs!
Lord Karsus 07-26-07, 08:13 PM	So no known plausible creation myths exist for the humans, right? -There is nothing specific written as to how Humans came about, as to not offend anyone. That way, if you want your Humans to have evolved, fine. If you want your Humans to have been created by aliens, fine. If you want your Humans to have been created by a deity, or deities, fine.
boards 07-26-07, 09:18 PM	Isnt there something about the Unicorn run being revered as the birthplace of humans and other species native to the realms? I'm sure I've read that in one of the sourcebooks.:confused:
Lord Karsus 07-28-07, 08:22 PM	Isnt there something about the Unicorn run being revered as the birthplace of humans and other species native to the realms? I'm sure I've read that in one of the sourcebooks.:confused: -Unicorn Run is a site revered by the Fey and Sylvan Folk, as well as Druidic folk, but what you just mentioned is not something I've ever heard of.