Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aaron Highcolor 08-01-07, 04:30 PM	I'm currently reading the novel she's in (Depths of Madness of the top of my head?), and I'm just wondering if anyone can post a little more history on her for me. Thanks!
Green Elven Vampire 08-01-07, 04:44 PM	She's a Moon elf Rogue/ Swashbuckler/ Shadowdancer/ Uncanny Trickster who may or may not be a Chosen of the elven god of rogues, Erevan Ilesere. Other than that... go to Candlekeep and ask the author himself. He's very good at answering questions on Fox at Twilight.
Zanan 08-01-07, 07:12 PM	To my knowledge, she made her first appearance in "The Greater Treasure" in the Last Mythal anthology Realms of the Elves.
Old Sage 08-01-07, 07:33 PM	She's a Moon elf Rogue/ Swashbuckler/ Shadowdancer/ Uncanny Trickster who may or may not be a Chosen of the elven god of rogues, Erevan Ilesere.Twilight's status has yet to be "fully and officially" confirmed completely in canon -- in other words, it's not actually something stated in sourcebooks. For now, it's just an interpretation the reader picks up from Twilight's published appearances so far. In some of the Candlekeep Book Club discussions regarding Twilight's status, Erik tell us that he established a pretty strong connection for the "special" relationship that exists between Twilight and Erevan through several passages in Depths of Madness. And that's mostly what I thought when I read through them myself. That's enough for me to believe that Twilight does in fact enjoy a unique status of sorts among Erevan's faithful, and that Erik will elaborate further on that status if and when he has the opportunity to do so. And so long as it isn't contradicted by WotC in future FR source material, 'tis likely to remain that way. To which, Erik replied:- "Yup. It has not been established one way or another, and until it is, I can't comment one way or another. From many things Twilight has *said*, it's a reasonable assumption. But there isn't any particular reason to trust anything she says. There's also one particular scene in Depths that seems to contradict her "chosen" status. Cheers"
Lord Karsus 08-01-07, 08:36 PM	There's also one particular scene in Depths that seems to contradict her "chosen" status. -Heh, the majority of the novel seems to do just that.
jwanderer5 08-02-07, 02:38 AM	Just gotta remember one thing about Twilight. She's bat guano loco. Maybe. She might have been a lover of a god. Or just thinks that she was.
Zanan 08-02-07, 03:35 AM	Obviously, people should remind themselves that the word/s "chosen / by" used by novel characters in speech or minds need not exactly relate to the special status given by the namesake "template".
Elven Avenger 08-02-07, 08:09 AM	I think she has levels on the Divine Seeker prestige class also.
Zanan 08-02-07, 05:18 PM	From what she does in said stories, she might (going by requirements et al) be a rogue 7(+) / shadowdancer 4(+) / divine seeker 4(+).
Lord Karsus 08-02-07, 06:39 PM	-I believe that the stats provided by GEV are the ones that Erik de Bie said he believed most aptly reflected the character at the time in one of his responses at the 'Keep.
Old Sage 08-02-07, 07:41 PM	There are no official stats for Twilight. Though Erik, a couple of months ago, provided an interpretation of Twilight on his blog:- "Fox-at-Twilight is roughly: CN moon elf female rogue 3 / swashbuckler 2 / uncanny trickster* 3 / shadowdancer 4 / divine seeker 4 * This being from Complete Scoundrel. Her 2 class features increases are in Swashbuckler and Shadowdancer."
Green Elven Vampire 08-02-07, 07:51 PM	There are no official stats for Twilight. Though Erik, a couple of months ago, provided an interpretation of Twilight on his blog:- "Fox-at-Twilight is roughly: CN moon elf female rogue 3 / swashbuckler 2 / uncanny trickster* 3 / shadowdancer 4 / divine seeker 4 * This being from Complete Scoundrel. Her 2 class features increases are in Swashbuckler and Shadowdancer." Yep, that's what Erik wrote for her stats.
MerrikCale 08-04-07, 11:04 PM	I think she has levels on the Divine Seeker prestige class also. you think correctly, at least she says she does
Zanan 08-05-07, 09:00 AM	you think correctly, at least she says she does I'd doubt that she says / said something like that. Erik most likely did, while she spoke with her actions ... or rather Erevan did.
Old Sage 08-05-07, 09:19 AM	Erik did indeed note as such. Recall the direct quote I posted from him in my earlier reply...
MerrikCale 08-05-07, 03:03 PM	I'd doubt that she says / said something like that. Erik most likely did, while she spoke with her actions ... or rather Erevan did. in Depths she mentions she is a divine seeker
Old Sage 08-05-07, 08:27 PM	I don't remember that. Do you have a page reference?
MerrikCale 08-06-07, 11:06 PM	I don't remember that. Do you have a page reference? on page 13, when Liet asks what he should call her she states: "The Fox-in-Twilight- princess of elves, seducer of kings, lover of gods. Shadowdancer and divine seeker."
MerrikCale 08-10-07, 10:01 PM	I'd doubt that she says / said something like that. told ya she said it
GothicDan 08-10-07, 10:53 PM	That seems a little.. off.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 10:56 PM	I do remember her saying something along the lines of those words.
Old Sage 08-10-07, 11:02 PM	That seems a little.. off.Indeed. I'm assuming Zanan, like myself, simply forgot that Twilight specifically said 'divine seeker' in a section of dialogue from Depths of Madness.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 11:03 PM	And the inclusion of 'Shadowdancer' really drives home that she IS talking about her specific PrCs.
MerrikCale 08-10-07, 11:31 PM	That seems a little.. off. who me?
MerrikCale 08-10-07, 11:31 PM	Indeed. I'm assuming Zanan, like myself, simply forgot that Twilight specifically said 'divine seeker' in a section of dialogue from Depths of Madness. took me awhile to find the dang quote too
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 12:11 AM	who me? -And the dialogue.
MerrikCale 08-11-07, 09:05 AM	-And the dialogue. that goes without saying, but thats the character
Zanan 08-11-07, 10:17 AM	Generally, people rarely address or speak of themselves in-character by class names. There is hardly a concept of a "divine seeker" in-setting, at least not like we see it in the PGtF. Obviously, we can ask the author about that himself. Reading Shattered Mask, you would get the impression that half of the ruffians mentioned in there were blackguards, as the author calls them that time and again. Anyway, where exactly is that dialogue? I took this Divine Seeker stuff from her healing ability in The Greater Treasure.
MerrikCale 08-11-07, 10:39 AM	Generally, people rarely address or speak of themselves in-character by class names. There is hardly a concept of a "divine seeker" in-setting, at least not like we see it in the PGtF. Obviously, we can ask the author about that himself. Reading Shattered Mask, you would get the impression that half of the ruffians mentioned in there were blackguards, as the author calls them that time and again. Anyway, where exactly is that dialogue? I took this Divine Seeker stuff from her healing ability in The Greater Treasure. as I said before, its on pg 13 of the novel. and why wouldn't a divine seeker refer to themselves as a divine seeker. Bladesingers call themselves bladesingers, silverstars call them selves silverstars, bloodhounds call themselves bloodhounds, etc etc ect
GothicDan 08-11-07, 11:51 AM	Bladesingers and Silverstars are established in the culture of Faerun in-character. Divine Seekers are generic PrCs that are MADE to specifically not be established in any single culture, since all churches can have them.
MerrikCale 08-11-07, 09:41 PM	Bladesingers and Silverstars are established in the culture of Faerun in-character. Divine Seekers are generic PrCs that are MADE to specifically not be established in any single culture, since all churches can have them. true. but I don't see why that would mean they wouldn't call themselves divine seekers
jwanderer5 08-12-07, 10:18 PM	Either way, just because Twilight says that she's a divine seeker doesn't mean that she truly is. She does enjoy lying. Particuraly when it comes to making others uncomfortable and off balance. Such as her long list of who she is. Is all of it true? Some of it? None of it? Half truths?
Zanan 08-13-07, 04:00 AM	Either way, just because Twilight says that she's a divine seeker doesn't mean that she truly is. She does enjoy lying. Particuraly when it comes to making others uncomfortable and off balance. Such as her long list of who she is. Is all of it true? Some of it? None of it? Half truths? Well, in the Greater Treasure she is more or less mortally run through by a Grazz't cultists, yet survives that attack. The way it is described, it looks very much like the Divine Seeker's Divine Perseverance ability, and the author more or less confirms it with his own character build.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 04:23 AM	true. but I don't see why that would mean they wouldn't call themselves divine seekers Where culturally did such a title emerge in any way that her pronouncing it would have any sort of effect of awe/presence, such as that she seemed to be trying to foster in that quote? What would YOU think she meant if you didn't know the Divine Seeker, or Shadowdancer for that matter, PrC was an actual mechanic? Divine Seeker? Sounds like a Cleric of Mask to me. Or maybe a diviner of Selune. Or a Paladin of Helm dedicated to tracking down escaped felons. Shadowdancer? Well, now THAT screams Mask's and Shar's clergy. Or perhaps a secret cult dedicated to the memory of the Shadow-King... It makes about as much sense as using one religion's clerical hierarchies, by exact same name, to represent those of all religions, and we know from F&A that this is not the case in the Realms. It is NOT a highly unified place - Rome didn't conquer most of it and enforce/encourage the acceptance of a single vision of a great culture. In fact, if it wasn't almost solely for Rome, all of Western society would have been a cultural and linguistic mess for centuries longer, most likely. Even if not all continued to speak Latin, Latin was the basis for the Romance Languages of Europe, and I believe German later borrowed grammatical structures from it when they tried to streamline their own. Ironic, since the only major European, non-Roman derivative branch of languages are those of the Germanic types.
Green Elven Vampire 08-13-07, 10:58 AM	Either way, just because Twilight says that she's a divine seeker doesn't mean that she truly is. She does enjoy lying. Particuraly when it comes to making others uncomfortable and off balance. Such as her long list of who she is. Is all of it true? Some of it? None of it? Half truths? The author himself states her stats and DS is one of them.
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 12:23 PM	The author himself states her stats and DS is one of them. -They aren't official, however. Mr. De Bie said something along the lines of, "If she had stats, these are what I think they would be". Not that the "not being official" thing really matters- I go along with it.
TomCosta 08-13-07, 05:40 PM	Not to pile on, but in addition to the author saying she was a rogue, swashbuckler, divine seeker, shadowdancer, and uncanny trickster, she actually makes use in the novel of the abilities and powers of the classes the author mentioned, so I think it's fair to say the author had her stats in mind when he wrote her stories.
MerrikCale 08-13-07, 09:58 PM	Divine Seeker? Sounds like a Cleric of Mask to me. Or maybe a diviner of Selune. Or a Paladin of Helm dedicated to tracking down escaped felons. Shadowdancer? Well, now THAT screams Mask's and Shar's clergy. Or perhaps a secret cult dedicated to the memory of the Shadow-King... . I am not exactly sure what your point is. Are you upset with the author for having his character use the terms "divine seeker" or "shadowdancer" to describe herself? Because these PrCs are not on specific organizations or the like, they are therefore, not to address themselves as such. Perhaps you would like a specific name for each religion's divine seekers and divine champions. When a character takes up the mantle of a divine seeker for a particular religion maybe that character and her mentors know what a "divine seeker" is by name, but not the community at large. If one was to say "I am a divine champion of Selune" for example, I would think the community would know what that was. She uses them to describe herself. Perhaps she knows what they mean, and could care less if Liet does or doesn't. There is no indication in that book that Liet knows what a shadowdancer or divine seeker is. Perhaps 'Light enjoys confusing the young lad, she does that a lot in the book. All I stated was she clearly says in the book that she's a divine seeker and somebody wanted a page reference. As Mr. Costa and others have pointed out, her powers bear that out.
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 10:27 PM	I am not exactly sure what your point is. Are you upset with the author for having his character use the terms "divine seeker" or "shadowdancer" to describe herself? -That seems to be the crux of his argument, yes. Perhaps you would like a specific name for each religion's divine seekers and divine champions. -That would certainly make things "all better". For Dan, anyway.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 01:38 AM	The question is: what person WOULDN'T want specific names for each clergy's clerics and divine champions? We had them in 2E. Clergies had attached crusading and knightly orders by specific names (which a general mix of classes thrown in), and they had various specific names for holy men and women of different status, and each had names of specific specialty priests... Not every preacher is called a Deacon across all religions. Shadowdancers and Divine Seekers are specific mechanical artifacts of 3.X. Since they're purely mechanical, and have no actual foundation in lore first, why include them? The Order of Aster is made up of 'holy warriors' of Lathander, and the types of classes within the order are a mechanical footnote. They are first and foremost the Order of Aster, not "a number of Paladins, Clerics, Divine Champions," and what not. And I'm not so much upset, as much as just confused, since I like de Bie from our brief talks over on Candlekeep.
MerrikCale 08-14-07, 09:27 PM	The question is: what person WOULDN'T want specific names for each clergy's clerics and divine champions? Thats fine by me. We did to a great degree have that in 2e (the one edition I never really played). We both know the "religion" volumes for that edition are far superior to the 3e single volume. I still don't have a big problem with the character calling herself a "divine seeker". I find it plausible (although perhaps not ideal) that a person choosing the path of a church sponsored rogue knowing that the general term for that across all religions is a "divine seeker". As for the author, I liked the book and he wanted to get the point across as to what this character is. I suppose if WOTC had decided to create specific terms for each dieties' seekers, he would have used the appropriate term.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 10:18 PM	knowing that the general term for that across all religions is a "divine seeker". So all of the gods, of all religions, suddenly got together and said, "Hey, anyone who we give the same type of abilities to who is in some way stealthy and roguish, we'll tell our clergies to all call them Divine Seekers, alright?" That's not even remotely plausible.
MerrikCale 08-14-07, 11:15 PM	So all of the gods, of all religions, suddenly got together and said, "Hey, anyone who we give the same type of abilities to who is in some way stealthy and roguish, we'll tell our clergies to all call them Divine Seekers, alright?" That's not even remotely plausible. thats not what I'm saying. But it may be a "term of art" used in the adventuring community for a church sponsored rogue. Do you like that?
GothicDan 08-15-07, 11:48 AM	What's a term of art?
MerrikCale 08-15-07, 11:50 AM	What's a term of art? a term used in a specific field that has a meaning to that field. In this case, perhaps adventurers may refer to rogues sponsored by a church as divine seekers
GothicDan 08-15-07, 11:57 AM	That would make sense in a modernized world in which languages were somewhat standardized and carried on from one subculture to the next, but not Faerun, I don't think, especially since churches can employ Rogues without levels in the Divine Seeker PrC. It's also too formal to be employed by standard adventurers - I'd imagine they'd use slang closer to (if not sounding like) Sigil's Cant - a "knight of the post," for example. I really don't think you're understanding how important I find the etymology of a world/culture to be. It may come from me focusing overly much on linguistics, history, cultural interactions, and the like. I just find that sort of stuff to be some of the most important when writing a BELIEVABLE (if not necessarily INTERESTING) fantasy novel or short story.
MerrikCale 08-16-07, 09:30 PM	I really don't think you're understanding how important I find the etymology of a world/culture to be. It may come from me focusing overly much on linguistics, history, cultural interactions, and the like. I just find that sort of stuff to be some of the most important when writing a BELIEVABLE (if not necessarily INTERESTING) fantasy novel or short story. I understand your view of this GD, and I don't disagree with you at all really. I'm just trying to find a logical reason for 'Light to call herself a "divine seeker". I thought my idea worked, but oh well.....
Green Elven Vampire 08-17-07, 12:29 AM	OMFG!!! this thread is just silly now.
MerrikCale 08-17-07, 10:47 PM	OMFG!!! this thread is just silly now. this one's silly. No sillier than all the other's I ruin
Lord Karsus 08-18-07, 12:43 AM	OMFG!!! this thread is just silly now. -Not really. They both have valid points.
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 04:27 PM	-Not really. They both have valid points. Thanks LK
erikscottdebie 08-18-07, 07:32 PM	Well met, all. I understand your view of this GD, and I don't disagree with you at all really. I'm just trying to find a logical reason for 'Light to call herself a "divine seeker". I thought my idea worked, but oh well..... I find this thread highly amusing (to have a two page thread over a tiny little line), but as you're very passionate about this subject, let me answer as best I can. (To tell the truth, I'm kind of curious why you don't read into the term "princess of elves." Trying to assign something like "logic" to a character like Twilight is an interesting intellectual exercise. She *isn't* logical in her actions, but since this question needs to be answered, here we go: That's just how she thinks of herself. There's a story behind *why* she thinks of herself that way--it's a title she heard applied to her--but I haven't told it yet. It's kind of a joke to her, actually, but hey. Maybe one day.
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 09:27 PM	Well met, all. I find this thread highly amusing (to have a two page thread over a tiny little line), but as you're very passionate about this subject, let me answer as best I can. (To tell the truth, I'm kind of curious why you don't read into the term "princess of elves." Trying to assign something like "logic" to a character like Twilight is an interesting intellectual exercise. She *isn't* logical in her actions, but since this question needs to be answered, here we go: That's just how she thinks of herself. There's a story behind *why* she thinks of herself that way--it's a title she heard applied to her--but I haven't told it yet. It's kind of a joke to her, actually, but hey. Maybe one day. I kind of liked my explanation, but I'll wait for another 'Light story. Is there one coming? sheesh. here I am defending the line, and I'm the one that gets yelled at. man o man, mommy! mommy!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-18-07, 09:33 PM	I agree with whoever said that this character (Twilight) is pretty crazy--she also happens to be a pathological liar. As has been mentioned by the author himself, there's no reason to take her words for granted as truth.
MerrikCale 08-19-07, 12:00 AM	I agree with whoever said that this character (Twilight) is pretty crazy--she also happens to be a pathological liar. As has been mentioned by the author himself, there's no reason to take her words for granted as truth. Fair enough. But whether she was lying or not, the issue was merely the use of the term "divine seeker" and whether that would carry any meaning "in game."
GothicDan 08-19-07, 01:04 AM	Erik, Thanks for the reply! I hope I wasn't being personally offensive. As I've said, you've already established your respect as far as I'm concerned, with me, already during our brief talks at Candlekeep. I was just curious as to the very mechanical (it seemed) terminology - I'm glad to see there's a more "non-serious" discussion behind it. :)
erikscottdebie 08-19-07, 08:42 AM	I kind of liked my explanation-- I liked your explanation as well! Maybe divine seekers across the realms do indeed call themselves divine seekers. That's entirely possible--I have no idea. What I do know is that the line is, indeed, there, and Twilight is, indeed, a divine seeker (just another of the titles attached to a nameless girl). She also doesn't give a fig as to whether Liet understands her or not when she claims the mantle. I would also warn everyone about the folly of applying Earth logic to the Realms. It just ain't so. ;) --but I'll wait for another 'Light story. Is there one coming? I really couldn't say. Anything is, of course, possible. As for JW and those who have noted him--yes, indeed, it's quite possible that Twilight is a little . . . not quite right in the head. Particularly in a novel that is *about* madness. Or perhaps she's totally sane, and she's just not entirely honest with what she says. But [bemused sarcasm on] *obviously* that can't be the case, because *obviously* Twilight is completely honest and forthright in all of her ventures. [bemused sarcasm off] :P I hope I wasn't being personally offensive. As I've said, you've already established your respect as far as I'm concerned, with me, already during our brief talks at Candlekeep. Of course no personal offense, GD. I can't speak for anyone else who might have drawn bad feelings from the thread, and I hope that we can maintain perspective. I encourage everyone to be civil and positive in their discourse--remember, this is just a *book* we're talking about. It's not like it's a matter of life and death. :D I was just curious as to the very mechanical (it seemed) terminology - I'm glad to see there's a more "non-serious" discussion behind it. :) Exactly. The term wasn't really necessary, I suppose, and could spark confusion, but I suppose it's there as a shoutout to fans (and remember, this is a *game novel*). As Sage and Zanan noted, it's pretty firmly established by her actions and abilities that she has both shadowdancer and divine seeker powers. And really--since when is everything about Twilight *serious*? :P And finally, in answer to the ORIGINAL POST: I'm currently reading the novel she's in (Depths of Madness of the top of my head?), and I'm just wondering if anyone can post a little more history on her for me. Thanks! Aaron, well met! I hope the thread has answered your question--and that's about all there is at the moment. Twilight has yet to be fully revealed (ahem!) in all her witty and sexilicious glory. Check out the Twilight story in Realms of the Elves or come chat with me over at Candlekeep.com. Since novel discussion isn't particularly in vogue on the wizards boards (I believe it's on very shaky ground, and the fact that this thread still exists surprises me), those are my best recommendations. Twilight does not (at least not yet) exist in a fully statted block in a FR sourcebook. She's briefly alluded to in Eytan Bernstein's first warlocks class chronicles article (where you'll find a writeup for Davoren, though it contains some spoilers), but has yet to appear in print in a Wizards sourcebook. I also have a blog, the address noted in the back of your book, or here: eriksdb.livejournal.com. There's a dedicated Depths of Madness post--click the link at left called "Go Mad." Cheers
Green Elven Vampire 08-19-07, 05:17 PM	The simple fact that my favorite deity Erevan Ilesere is finally getting recognition is proof enough to me that Erik rocks!!! Erevan's clergy and followers need to get more involved in upsetting the plans and schemes of all the other deities, be they good or evil. You rule Erik.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-19-07, 09:09 PM	Fair enough. But whether she was lying or not, the issue was merely the use of the term "divine seeker" and whether that would carry any meaning "in game." It's a fine question. I have to admit, though, that for some reason it didn't really bother me.:)
MerrikCale 08-19-07, 11:11 PM	It's a fine question. I have to admit, though, that for some reason it didn't really bother me.:) nor I
Lord Karsus 08-20-07, 09:13 AM	The simple fact that my favorite deity Erevan Ilesere is finally getting recognition is proof enough to me that Erik rocks!!! -And, the fact that he appears in multiple sourcebooks isn't recognition? Since novel discussion isn't particularly in vogue on the wizards boards (I believe it's on very shaky ground, and the fact that this thread still exists surprises me), those are my best recommendations. -Currently, novel discussions are allowed, as long as they don't get "heated", whatever that entails. Very vague.
erikscottdebie 08-20-07, 01:17 PM	Thank you for the votes of confidence! :) -And, the fact that he appears in multiple sourcebooks isn't recognition? I think he means in terms of novels. To my knowledge, Erevan has not been so much as mentioned in a Realms novel, but then again, I've hardly read all the Realms novels out there. -Currently, novel discussions are allowed, as long as they don't get "heated", whatever that entails. Very vague. Ah. Well--let's make sure this thread doesn't get too "heated," then.