FR in 4th Ed.... better or worse? [Archive] - Wizards Community

FR in 4th Ed.... better or worse? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
maddog0714
03-17-08, 05:14 PM I'm just about at the point of retiring my currect campaign, but torn between waiting for 4th ed. to come out and go that route, or retire now and stick with 3.5. (Only have one player, we have played for about 25 years, the last 15 years has just been us) I'm guessing if I went 4th ed. I could convert all my 3.5 books over to 4th ed. but I really like the FR setting the way it is.
How much different are they going to make FR?
(I know the question has probably been asked....)
How are most of you planning to proceed?
Alediran
03-17-08, 05:19 PM If you like the current setting and don't want it changed in a very contrived and inconsistent way that gives you a 100 years time jump, kills or demotes 5/6 of the God's pantheons, destroys/replaces parts of the geography with things from another world that was never supposed to exist and a lot of other changes of this kind then yes, keep playing in 3.5 or wait until we make a Classic Realms conversion for 4th edition rules in The Realms Vault.
MarkusTay63
03-17-08, 05:41 PM Thats what I am planning, as of right now.*

I'm going to use all of the current (1e, 2e, & 3e) lore, and force the 4e rules to work for me (not the other way around). The Realms Vault is one place, and I know of a few others, but once 4e hits shelves, expect the entire setting to be converted to 3e WAY before the Aug. release of the 4e FRCG by scores of fans all over the internet.

By the time 4e FR rolls around, it will already be one-uped by its own predecessor. :D

________________________________________ ___________________________

* Mind subject to change on a whim and without a moment's notice. ;)
Zanan
03-17-08, 06:20 PM We know next to nothing about 4E and the 4E Realms. Hence, you can hardly get a good reply on the question at hand.

I've got 30 odd 3E/RE books in my shelves and will start a converted AD&D campaign, Night Below, within the Realms round about 1200 D.R.. As in: no 4E and 4E Realms for this DM.
Fabius Maximus
03-17-08, 06:57 PM We know next to nothing about 4E and the 4E Realms. Hence, you can hardly get a good reply on the question at hand.

I've got 30 odd 3E/RE books in my shelves and will start a converted AD&D campaign, Night Below, within the Realms round about 1200 D.R.. As in: no 4E and 4E Realms for this DM.
Wait? 1200 DR? You could have told me that a bit earlier...

I don't mind the changes to the Realms. Some of them I don't particularly like, but I could manage... if I'd change to 4e. As long as I haven't found a way to change the rules I don't like to something more playable, I won't touch the new system.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-17-08, 08:49 PM How much different are they going to make FR?

Quite a lot different. There is plenty to read about it right here, on these boards.

How are most of you planning to proceed?

I'm going to ignore the whole damn thing, for the most part. By that, I mean the 4E REALMS, though--I'm rather interested in the 4E rules.
Keryth
03-24-08, 12:20 PM Well, I am completely against the 4e Realms. The changes they have made are far too drastic for my tastes and it nolonger resemles the Realms in my eyes. So, no 4E Realms for me. However, I am interested in the 4E Rules, so, Ill check em out when they hit. Though, what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder, and making essentially D&D 3.75 looks pretty good too.
MarkusTay63
03-24-08, 01:06 PM 3.75? Not 3.6?

Maybe it'll be D21. :D

Either way, I WILL be checking out Pathfinder before I make any 4e purchases. Having a newer version of the game that works with the old rules sounds like a much more fan-friendly way to go.
Keryth
03-24-08, 02:44 PM 3.75? Not 3.6?

Maybe it'll be D21. :D

Either way, I WILL checking out Pathfinder before I make any 4e purchases. Having a newer version of the game that works with the old rules sounds like a much more fan-friendly way to go.

The Alpha is free. The Beta will be free. And what I've glanced at so far, it fizes the 3.5 problems that WOTC says 4e is to fix, without changing the look and feel of the entire game.
Green Elven Vampire
03-24-08, 04:00 PM Stick with 3ED and 3.5ED as they are both compatible with one another. 4ED is just a lame commercial trying to sell us over priced, cheap cars!!
MarkusTay63
03-24-08, 04:18 PM This reminds me of what happened to IBM when they allowed anyone to develop to DOS...

Its funny... non-Apple computers are still called 'IBM compatibles', and yet that big ol' company has nothing to do with home computers much anymore.

I guess thats what happens when you let your 'source code' (rules) into the public domain - others start doing it BETTER.

Is IBM even considered 'blue chip' stock anymore?

Prediction:
Hasbro will be axing its D&D division by 2011. They will keep the other lucrative parts of WotC, but may sell the novel division to another publisher (meaning that the quality of the novels will go WAY up).

In the aftermath, Paizo will arise as a leader of the D20 community.
Keryth
03-24-08, 04:55 PM Stick with 3ED and 3.5ED as they are both compatible with one another. 4ED is just a lame commercial trying to sell us over priced, cheap cars!!

Which is why I am taking a look at what Paizo is putting out. Like I said, Pathfinder is working off of 3.5. Changes things a little, makes grapple easier, modifies feats some, condenses skills a bit. Fixes what we have seen as problems in D&D 3.5 but without going to the EXTREMES that WOTC is.
Green Elven Vampire
03-24-08, 10:20 PM Which is why I am taking a look at what Paizo is putting out. Like I said, Pathfinder is working off of 3.5. Changes things a little, makes grapple easier, modifies feats some, condenses skills a bit. Fixes what we have seen as problems in D&D 3.5 but without going to the EXTREMES that WOTC is.

And they're only doing it for the money. I mean, why change a whole edition that isn't even broken.
Alediran
03-25-08, 09:55 AM And they're only doing it for the money. I mean, why change a whole edition that isn't even broken.

"That Stacy Malibu has a New Hat!"
18DELTA
03-25-08, 12:46 PM The Alpha is free. The Beta will be free. And what I've glanced at so far, it fizes the 3.5 problems that WOTC says 4e is to fix, without changing the look and feel of the entire game.
-I think the "Beta" will cost $25.00. Then in August 2009 the book will cost $50.00. That is subject to change. What I like is that it is a public playtest, no nda's, no secrecy. It is going to be out in the open. Paizo is getting my money. The group I game with is going to stay 3.5, 3P(3RD EDITION PAIZO). We will check out 4E, probably play some one shots, to see how we like it. Why switch over to a new edition when it first comes out, when not every class, or monster, or spell wont be out there. Oh yeah...we have to wait for PHB3 for what ever class that we really liked in 3E:rolleyes:

18DELTA;)
Keryth
03-26-08, 10:49 AM And they're only doing it for the money. I mean, why change a whole edition that isn't even broken.

Because 3.5 is broken in some places. Excessive lists of skills that should be trimmed down some. Rules that cause more arguments than help (grapple anyone?) Things like that. What paizo is putting out is worth looking at. Looks good so far.
Saint_of_the_Stone
03-27-08, 06:22 AM Just stick with what realms you like. Hell I am using 2E (I think) Realms and I am loving it.
Diffan
03-27-08, 08:00 AM In all honesty, I believe that it's much too early to decide if it's worse or better than 3.5 (rules speaking) and thus, can't give you an accurate depiction of what's to come. FR is changing drastically and that might not be what your looking for or exactly what your looking for. Also, who's to say you can't do both? People do it with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd all the time, so what makes 4th so different? As MarkusTay said, using the rules of 4e and negating the plot-line of FR-4e seems like a wonderful compromise. Another idea would be to start out a easy, 1st level campaign with the current rules and when 4e come out, change over to the new rule-set. It's been done over other various editions and I'm sure it's managable for this one. This are just my opinions, so take them as you will, but i'd suggest not banning something that could be wonderful and fun based on what some people say.
Zanan
03-27-08, 11:54 AM Because 3.5 is broken in some places. Excessive lists of skills that should be trimmed down some. Rules that cause more arguments than help (grapple anyone?) Things like that. What paizo is putting out is worth looking at. Looks good so far.

Never heard someone complaining about excessive lists of spells (especially arcane ones) so far though? Skills are quite the opposite, too few and very limited, actually.
Rules that cause arguments? Sure enough! But these are essentially few and far between, which was, of course, not the case in AD&D. From what I have seen of 4E, there is nothing to suspect that it will be argument-free either ... once you find out about the details and can get your teeth into it.

But you are right, the Paizo variants do help the 3,5ers like me.
Keryth
03-27-08, 01:29 PM Never heard someone complaining about excessive lists of spells (especially arcane ones) so far though? Skills are quite the opposite, too few and very limited, actually.
Rules that cause arguments? Sure enough! But these are essentially few and far between, which was, of course, not the case in AD&D. From what I have seen of 4E, there is nothing to suspect that it will be argument-free either ... once you find out about the details and can get your teeth into it.

But you are right, the Paizo variants do help the 3,5ers like me.

Well, more and more I find myself more itnerested in '3.75' than in 4e. My enthusiasm for 4e wasn;t the best to begin with, but has gotten even less as I think about all the changes. And FR, well, 4e is killing it.

As for skills, I don;t know. Spot, Search, and Listen all seem kinda redundant. I think Perception is a far better idea myself.
MarkusTay63
03-27-08, 11:06 PM Spot and Listen being seperate from search (Perception) makes sense only in a system where you have your senses statted. I did that once, as an experiment, and had stats for vision, hearing, etc... all with racial modifiers.

It was very realistic, but on the whole didn't add a lot to the game, so it wasn't worth the extra baggage, I thought.

Ergo, I concur that a single skill, while not being realistic, is preferrable in a game.

I was determined to make 4e rules work in 1e/2e/3e Realms, but I find myself leaning heavily toward the Paizo offerings now. If I start to see other big companies stick with 3e D20, then it's really a no-brainer for me. I like to adapt stuff from all over, and if WotC is the only group designing for 4e, then it's a dead-end in my book.
creyzi4zb12
03-28-08, 02:02 AM 4e is a lot easier to understand...It is newbie(newcomer) friendly...while it does have it's drawbacks due to the many things removed, it also has it's positive sides like (user friendly) (short and easy). But the truth is that I like 3.5 better than 4 because I like things with more detail on it...Oh well, maybe 4e was done for beginners in the first place...u know, I think it has something to do with the business thingy, they created it to attract more customers.
MarkusTay63
03-28-08, 03:08 AM Well, they've made it clear that this new edition isn't for us, its for all the new customers they plan on attracting, which is all fine and good, and I wish them the best of luck with that.

On the other hand, Paizo is designing its D20 rules around its current customers, not potential future ones, and they're even going so far as to use customer feedback in their designs. Can you imagine that? A company designing a product with it's customer's needs in mind, rather then the needs of people who aren't even customers?

It's Revolutionary!!! :D

Its all about different approaches, and WotC has made it clear we are just so much of 'yesterday's baggage'. Well... I for one ain't gonna stick around where I'm not wanted. Let WotC have all those up-and-coming 13 year olds.

As for me, I'll stick with the guys who cater to us 'old-timers'. ;)
ClericOfAspel
03-28-08, 09:44 AM Before I'd heard about any of the changes they were making, I was already planning on limaxing my campaign with some kind of apocolypse, so the change fit in to my plans perfectly.

Now I've got an almighty holy war going on spanning the entire planet, with all of the deities drawing sides. I've even used it as an opportunity to throw in several new deities, as they use the chaos of the whole affair to get in (though I've so far constrained them to a foreign pantheon, a set of islands west of Maztica, roughly where Fiji would be).

So not only do I get to do an apocolypse, but I get to do a canon one ^_^
Keryth
03-28-08, 10:07 AM Well, they've made it clear that this new edition isn't for us, its for all te new customers they plan on attracting, which is all fine and good, and I wish them the best of luck with that.

On the other hand, Paizo is designing its D20 rules around its current customers, not potential future ones, and they're even going so far as to use customer feedback in their designs. Can you imagine that? A company designing a product with it's customer's needs in mind, rather then the needs of people who aren't even customers?

It's Revolutionary!!! :D

Its all about different approaches, and WotC has made it clear we are just so much of 'yesterday's baggage'. Well... I for one ain't gonna stick around where I'm not wanted. Let WotC have all those up-and-coming 13 year olds.

As for me, I'll stick with the guys who cater to us 'old-timers'. ;)

I agree with you Markus. 4e strikes me as geared toward the newcomers with a whole, who cares attitude towards the existing customer base. This could be good for WOTC, or it could be bad. We shall see. As for Paizo, 10,000 people DL'd PFRPG in the 1st week, so that says something. And, I liek ti won;t invalidate all ym D20 books either, cuz while I run FR, it is only part of a shared world and therefore things form other sources and such are fair game as well.
Alediran
03-28-08, 10:14 AM 3P will become the official ruleset for The Vault, except for the skills rules, they'll use the rank system instead of proficient skills, I'm still thinking if we'll use the compact or extended skill list.
ArchmageMorgoloth
03-28-08, 10:27 AM By far, it's for the worse. It just doesn't feel right to me. And really, how many times is Mystra going to die? What is this, the third time already? If Ao chose me to replace the goddess of magic, I'd be wary of taking the position. >.>
Straploknight
03-28-08, 12:01 PM 3.75? Not 3.6?

Maybe it'll be D21. :D

Either way, I WILL be checking out Pathfinder before I make any 4e purchases. Having a newer version of the game that works with the old rules sounds like a much more fan-friendly way to go.

Ditto, can't wait for the beta document, I like the alpha document fighter, on the surface the only thing I dont seem to care for with Pathfinder is the +2 stat bump that can be placed anywhere.

I'm torn on the 4th Ed FRCS, on the one hand I want to see what they've done to the Realms (and be able to examiner it in detail), but on the other I don't want to reward the company for a product if I dont like it - guess it'll be one of the few times I send in a survey card if they include it.

Ultimately I'm getting cold feet over the whole 4th ed thing, I'll get the core books to check it out and if it fails to excite I'll leave it at that.
Alediran
03-28-08, 12:04 PM Ditto, can't wait for the beta document, I like the alpha document fighter, on the surface the only thing I dont seem to care for with Pathfinder is the +2 stat bump that can be placed anywhere

It's because every race recieved a +2 to something else, elves got +2 to int and dwarves +2 to wis.
Straploknight
03-28-08, 12:12 PM Your right, and elves do come to mind, but it just felt funny to me to see a floating stat bump like that. Ultimately its of little consequence, if PF turns out to be pretty good then it wont even be a blip on the radar.
18DELTA
03-28-08, 02:26 PM -I like what Paizo did to the races. I told the Group that I game with. They liked it. I really liked that characters get a feat at every odd level, not evey 3rd level.:D

18DELTA;)
ClericOfAspel
03-28-08, 03:37 PM By far, it's for the worse. It just doesn't feel right to me. And really, how many times is Mystra going to die? What is this, the third time already? If Ao chose me to replace the goddess of magic, I'd be wary of taking the position. >.>

To cries of "Oh my god, they killed Mystra!"
MarkusTay63
03-28-08, 04:03 PM 3P will become the official ruleset for The Vault, except for the skills rules, they'll use the rank system instead of proficient skills, I'm still thinking if we'll use the compact or extended skill list.Glad to hear it - the more support we can garner for the new 3e instruction set, the better 3e Revised will become all around. I've even approached other 3rd party designers with the idea of developing for 3P, the new 'open protocal', and what little feedback I have gotten show they are not adverse to it. I think many of them are taking a 'wait-and-see' attitude, to see which system takes off, before they jump onboard.

You can't really blame them, can you? WotC is charging $10,000 for them to get the rules ahead of time, which Paizo actually paid, and so far hasn't seen anything from them. You can't fault Paiizo here - they paid for something and got tired of waiting for it. Thats what happens when you treat people bady - they don't stick around. :(

Ultimately I'm getting cold feet over the whole 4th ed thing, I'll get the core books to check it out and if it fails to excite I'll leave it at that.I think this is what 90% of us will be doing. I'm not sure which system I will be using, so i will still check out 4e. After all, I want whats best for me. I will also purchase the FRCG, mostly because I want to see what ed wrote, but also because I'm curious to see what they have done. Once again, if I love it, I will go that way. Believe it or not, I'm still keeping an open mind - I just don't have much hope anymore.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 03-17-08, 05:14 PM	I'm just about at the point of retiring my currect campaign, but torn between waiting for 4th ed. to come out and go that route, or retire now and stick with 3.5. (Only have one player, we have played for about 25 years, the last 15 years has just been us) I'm guessing if I went 4th ed. I could convert all my 3.5 books over to 4th ed. but I really like the FR setting the way it is. How much different are they going to make FR? (I know the question has probably been asked....) How are most of you planning to proceed?
Alediran 03-17-08, 05:19 PM	If you like the current setting and don't want it changed in a very contrived and inconsistent way that gives you a 100 years time jump, kills or demotes 5/6 of the God's pantheons, destroys/replaces parts of the geography with things from another world that was never supposed to exist and a lot of other changes of this kind then yes, keep playing in 3.5 or wait until we make a Classic Realms conversion for 4th edition rules in The Realms Vault.
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 05:41 PM	Thats what I am planning, as of right now.* I'm going to use all of the current (1e, 2e, & 3e) lore, and force the 4e rules to work for me (not the other way around). The Realms Vault is one place, and I know of a few others, but once 4e hits shelves, expect the entire setting to be converted to 3e WAY before the Aug. release of the 4e FRCG by scores of fans all over the internet. By the time 4e FR rolls around, it will already be one-uped by its own predecessor. :D ________________________________________ ___________________________ * Mind subject to change on a whim and without a moment's notice. ;)
Zanan 03-17-08, 06:20 PM	We know next to nothing about 4E and the 4E Realms. Hence, you can hardly get a good reply on the question at hand. I've got 30 odd 3E/RE books in my shelves and will start a converted AD&D campaign, Night Below, within the Realms round about 1200 D.R.. As in: no 4E and 4E Realms for this DM.
Fabius Maximus 03-17-08, 06:57 PM	We know next to nothing about 4E and the 4E Realms. Hence, you can hardly get a good reply on the question at hand. I've got 30 odd 3E/RE books in my shelves and will start a converted AD&D campaign, Night Below, within the Realms round about 1200 D.R.. As in: no 4E and 4E Realms for this DM. Wait? 1200 DR? You could have told me that a bit earlier... I don't mind the changes to the Realms. Some of them I don't particularly like, but I could manage... if I'd change to 4e. As long as I haven't found a way to change the rules I don't like to something more playable, I won't touch the new system.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-17-08, 08:49 PM	How much different are they going to make FR? Quite a lot different. There is plenty to read about it right here, on these boards. How are most of you planning to proceed? I'm going to ignore the whole damn thing, for the most part. By that, I mean the 4E REALMS, though--I'm rather interested in the 4E rules.
Keryth 03-24-08, 12:20 PM	Well, I am completely against the 4e Realms. The changes they have made are far too drastic for my tastes and it nolonger resemles the Realms in my eyes. So, no 4E Realms for me. However, I am interested in the 4E Rules, so, Ill check em out when they hit. Though, what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder, and making essentially D&D 3.75 looks pretty good too.
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 01:06 PM	3.75? Not 3.6? Maybe it'll be D21. :D Either way, I WILL be checking out Pathfinder before I make any 4e purchases. Having a newer version of the game that works with the old rules sounds like a much more fan-friendly way to go.
Keryth 03-24-08, 02:44 PM	3.75? Not 3.6? Maybe it'll be D21. :D Either way, I WILL checking out Pathfinder before I make any 4e purchases. Having a newer version of the game that works with the old rules sounds like a much more fan-friendly way to go. The Alpha is free. The Beta will be free. And what I've glanced at so far, it fizes the 3.5 problems that WOTC says 4e is to fix, without changing the look and feel of the entire game.
Green Elven Vampire 03-24-08, 04:00 PM	Stick with 3ED and 3.5ED as they are both compatible with one another. 4ED is just a lame commercial trying to sell us over priced, cheap cars!!
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 04:18 PM	This reminds me of what happened to IBM when they allowed anyone to develop to DOS... Its funny... non-Apple computers are still called 'IBM compatibles', and yet that big ol' company has nothing to do with home computers much anymore. I guess thats what happens when you let your 'source code' (rules) into the public domain - others start doing it BETTER. Is IBM even considered 'blue chip' stock anymore? Prediction: Hasbro will be axing its D&D division by 2011. They will keep the other lucrative parts of WotC, but may sell the novel division to another publisher (meaning that the quality of the novels will go WAY up). In the aftermath, Paizo will arise as a leader of the D20 community.
Keryth 03-24-08, 04:55 PM	Stick with 3ED and 3.5ED as they are both compatible with one another. 4ED is just a lame commercial trying to sell us over priced, cheap cars!! Which is why I am taking a look at what Paizo is putting out. Like I said, Pathfinder is working off of 3.5. Changes things a little, makes grapple easier, modifies feats some, condenses skills a bit. Fixes what we have seen as problems in D&D 3.5 but without going to the EXTREMES that WOTC is.
Green Elven Vampire 03-24-08, 10:20 PM	Which is why I am taking a look at what Paizo is putting out. Like I said, Pathfinder is working off of 3.5. Changes things a little, makes grapple easier, modifies feats some, condenses skills a bit. Fixes what we have seen as problems in D&D 3.5 but without going to the EXTREMES that WOTC is. And they're only doing it for the money. I mean, why change a whole edition that isn't even broken.
Alediran 03-25-08, 09:55 AM	And they're only doing it for the money. I mean, why change a whole edition that isn't even broken. "That Stacy Malibu has a New Hat!"
18DELTA 03-25-08, 12:46 PM	The Alpha is free. The Beta will be free. And what I've glanced at so far, it fizes the 3.5 problems that WOTC says 4e is to fix, without changing the look and feel of the entire game. -I think the "Beta" will cost $25.00. Then in August 2009 the book will cost $50.00. That is subject to change. What I like is that it is a public playtest, no nda's, no secrecy. It is going to be out in the open. Paizo is getting my money. The group I game with is going to stay 3.5, 3P(3RD EDITION PAIZO). We will check out 4E, probably play some one shots, to see how we like it. Why switch over to a new edition when it first comes out, when not every class, or monster, or spell wont be out there. Oh yeah...we have to wait for PHB3 for what ever class that we really liked in 3E:rolleyes: 18DELTA;)
Keryth 03-26-08, 10:49 AM	And they're only doing it for the money. I mean, why change a whole edition that isn't even broken. Because 3.5 is broken in some places. Excessive lists of skills that should be trimmed down some. Rules that cause more arguments than help (grapple anyone?) Things like that. What paizo is putting out is worth looking at. Looks good so far.
Saint_of_the_Stone 03-27-08, 06:22 AM	Just stick with what realms you like. Hell I am using 2E (I think) Realms and I am loving it.
Diffan 03-27-08, 08:00 AM	In all honesty, I believe that it's much too early to decide if it's worse or better than 3.5 (rules speaking) and thus, can't give you an accurate depiction of what's to come. FR is changing drastically and that might not be what your looking for or exactly what your looking for. Also, who's to say you can't do both? People do it with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd all the time, so what makes 4th so different? As MarkusTay said, using the rules of 4e and negating the plot-line of FR-4e seems like a wonderful compromise. Another idea would be to start out a easy, 1st level campaign with the current rules and when 4e come out, change over to the new rule-set. It's been done over other various editions and I'm sure it's managable for this one. This are just my opinions, so take them as you will, but i'd suggest not banning something that could be wonderful and fun based on what some people say.
Zanan 03-27-08, 11:54 AM	Because 3.5 is broken in some places. Excessive lists of skills that should be trimmed down some. Rules that cause more arguments than help (grapple anyone?) Things like that. What paizo is putting out is worth looking at. Looks good so far. Never heard someone complaining about excessive lists of spells (especially arcane ones) so far though? Skills are quite the opposite, too few and very limited, actually. Rules that cause arguments? Sure enough! But these are essentially few and far between, which was, of course, not the case in AD&D. From what I have seen of 4E, there is nothing to suspect that it will be argument-free either ... once you find out about the details and can get your teeth into it. But you are right, the Paizo variants do help the 3,5ers like me.
Keryth 03-27-08, 01:29 PM	Never heard someone complaining about excessive lists of spells (especially arcane ones) so far though? Skills are quite the opposite, too few and very limited, actually. Rules that cause arguments? Sure enough! But these are essentially few and far between, which was, of course, not the case in AD&D. From what I have seen of 4E, there is nothing to suspect that it will be argument-free either ... once you find out about the details and can get your teeth into it. But you are right, the Paizo variants do help the 3,5ers like me. Well, more and more I find myself more itnerested in '3.75' than in 4e. My enthusiasm for 4e wasn;t the best to begin with, but has gotten even less as I think about all the changes. And FR, well, 4e is killing it. As for skills, I don;t know. Spot, Search, and Listen all seem kinda redundant. I think Perception is a far better idea myself.
MarkusTay63 03-27-08, 11:06 PM	Spot and Listen being seperate from search (Perception) makes sense only in a system where you have your senses statted. I did that once, as an experiment, and had stats for vision, hearing, etc... all with racial modifiers. It was very realistic, but on the whole didn't add a lot to the game, so it wasn't worth the extra baggage, I thought. Ergo, I concur that a single skill, while not being realistic, is preferrable in a game. I was determined to make 4e rules work in 1e/2e/3e Realms, but I find myself leaning heavily toward the Paizo offerings now. If I start to see other big companies stick with 3e D20, then it's really a no-brainer for me. I like to adapt stuff from all over, and if WotC is the only group designing for 4e, then it's a dead-end in my book.
creyzi4zb12 03-28-08, 02:02 AM	4e is a lot easier to understand...It is newbie(newcomer) friendly...while it does have it's drawbacks due to the many things removed, it also has it's positive sides like (user friendly) (short and easy). But the truth is that I like 3.5 better than 4 because I like things with more detail on it...Oh well, maybe 4e was done for beginners in the first place...u know, I think it has something to do with the business thingy, they created it to attract more customers.
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 03:08 AM	Well, they've made it clear that this new edition isn't for us, its for all the new customers they plan on attracting, which is all fine and good, and I wish them the best of luck with that. On the other hand, Paizo is designing its D20 rules around its current customers, not potential future ones, and they're even going so far as to use customer feedback in their designs. Can you imagine that? A company designing a product with it's customer's needs in mind, rather then the needs of people who aren't even customers? It's Revolutionary!!! :D Its all about different approaches, and WotC has made it clear we are just so much of 'yesterday's baggage'. Well... I for one ain't gonna stick around where I'm not wanted. Let WotC have all those up-and-coming 13 year olds. As for me, I'll stick with the guys who cater to us 'old-timers'. ;)
ClericOfAspel 03-28-08, 09:44 AM	Before I'd heard about any of the changes they were making, I was already planning on limaxing my campaign with some kind of apocolypse, so the change fit in to my plans perfectly. Now I've got an almighty holy war going on spanning the entire planet, with all of the deities drawing sides. I've even used it as an opportunity to throw in several new deities, as they use the chaos of the whole affair to get in (though I've so far constrained them to a foreign pantheon, a set of islands west of Maztica, roughly where Fiji would be). So not only do I get to do an apocolypse, but I get to do a canon one ^_^
Keryth 03-28-08, 10:07 AM	Well, they've made it clear that this new edition isn't for us, its for all te new customers they plan on attracting, which is all fine and good, and I wish them the best of luck with that. On the other hand, Paizo is designing its D20 rules around its current customers, not potential future ones, and they're even going so far as to use customer feedback in their designs. Can you imagine that? A company designing a product with it's customer's needs in mind, rather then the needs of people who aren't even customers? It's Revolutionary!!! :D Its all about different approaches, and WotC has made it clear we are just so much of 'yesterday's baggage'. Well... I for one ain't gonna stick around where I'm not wanted. Let WotC have all those up-and-coming 13 year olds. As for me, I'll stick with the guys who cater to us 'old-timers'. ;) I agree with you Markus. 4e strikes me as geared toward the newcomers with a whole, who cares attitude towards the existing customer base. This could be good for WOTC, or it could be bad. We shall see. As for Paizo, 10,000 people DL'd PFRPG in the 1st week, so that says something. And, I liek ti won;t invalidate all ym D20 books either, cuz while I run FR, it is only part of a shared world and therefore things form other sources and such are fair game as well.
Alediran 03-28-08, 10:14 AM	3P will become the official ruleset for The Vault, except for the skills rules, they'll use the rank system instead of proficient skills, I'm still thinking if we'll use the compact or extended skill list.
ArchmageMorgoloth 03-28-08, 10:27 AM	By far, it's for the worse. It just doesn't feel right to me. And really, how many times is Mystra going to die? What is this, the third time already? If Ao chose me to replace the goddess of magic, I'd be wary of taking the position. >.>
Straploknight 03-28-08, 12:01 PM	3.75? Not 3.6? Maybe it'll be D21. :D Either way, I WILL be checking out Pathfinder before I make any 4e purchases. Having a newer version of the game that works with the old rules sounds like a much more fan-friendly way to go. Ditto, can't wait for the beta document, I like the alpha document fighter, on the surface the only thing I dont seem to care for with Pathfinder is the +2 stat bump that can be placed anywhere. I'm torn on the 4th Ed FRCS, on the one hand I want to see what they've done to the Realms (and be able to examiner it in detail), but on the other I don't want to reward the company for a product if I dont like it - guess it'll be one of the few times I send in a survey card if they include it. Ultimately I'm getting cold feet over the whole 4th ed thing, I'll get the core books to check it out and if it fails to excite I'll leave it at that.
Alediran 03-28-08, 12:04 PM	Ditto, can't wait for the beta document, I like the alpha document fighter, on the surface the only thing I dont seem to care for with Pathfinder is the +2 stat bump that can be placed anywhere It's because every race recieved a +2 to something else, elves got +2 to int and dwarves +2 to wis.
Straploknight 03-28-08, 12:12 PM	Your right, and elves do come to mind, but it just felt funny to me to see a floating stat bump like that. Ultimately its of little consequence, if PF turns out to be pretty good then it wont even be a blip on the radar.
18DELTA 03-28-08, 02:26 PM	-I like what Paizo did to the races. I told the Group that I game with. They liked it. I really liked that characters get a feat at every odd level, not evey 3rd level.:D 18DELTA;)
ClericOfAspel 03-28-08, 03:37 PM	By far, it's for the worse. It just doesn't feel right to me. And really, how many times is Mystra going to die? What is this, the third time already? If Ao chose me to replace the goddess of magic, I'd be wary of taking the position. >.> To cries of "Oh my god, they killed Mystra!"
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 04:03 PM	3P will become the official ruleset for The Vault, except for the skills rules, they'll use the rank system instead of proficient skills, I'm still thinking if we'll use the compact or extended skill list.Glad to hear it - the more support we can garner for the new 3e instruction set, the better 3e Revised will become all around. I've even approached other 3rd party designers with the idea of developing for 3P, the new 'open protocal', and what little feedback I have gotten show they are not adverse to it. I think many of them are taking a 'wait-and-see' attitude, to see which system takes off, before they jump onboard. You can't really blame them, can you? WotC is charging $10,000 for them to get the rules ahead of time, which Paizo actually paid, and so far hasn't seen anything from them. You can't fault Paiizo here - they paid for something and got tired of waiting for it. Thats what happens when you treat people bady - they don't stick around. :( Ultimately I'm getting cold feet over the whole 4th ed thing, I'll get the core books to check it out and if it fails to excite I'll leave it at that.I think this is what 90% of us will be doing. I'm not sure which system I will be using, so i will still check out 4e. After all, I want whats best for me. I will also purchase the FRCG, mostly because I want to see what ed wrote, but also because I'm curious to see what they have done. Once again, if I love it, I will go that way. Believe it or not, I'm still keeping an open mind - I just don't have much hope anymore.