Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Philalexandros 05-02-07, 05:08 PM	Continued from earlier thread. Derren: I count "innately magical" as new power (but you are right, its mostly Phil in here who does such things, and he is also only quoting Ed who seems to answers every question about elven society with a new power the elves have) because it leads to that you think that even a average elf is somehow an much better wizard than a human but that is not the case. The only real spellcasting advantage elves have over other races are their high mages (because of lore) and other nations are close to catch up (epic red wizards, shade arcanists). Once more, you're carrying on an argument that no one else is fighting. A race does not need to be innately magical in order to have a grand magical tradition. In case anyone's keeping score, the Netherese were humans, as are their Halruaan descendants, the Thayans, and other groups as well. I'm not just citing Ed Greenwood, by the way. My approach, as you recall, centered more on cheap and plentiful magic to offset a central requirement. I only pointed to Ed's post to show that there were (a) methods used for food production other than foraging or hunting and (b) that Mythals DID in fact play a role in largely negating food consumption. Where the latter is concerned, this is hardly a new invention. Mythals are a central element in elven power, and have been for some time. The fact of the matter, though, is that you yourself wish to ignore them out of a contrived need to give them some of the problems the other races also have, ... to also have ressource problems ... The fact of the matter, though, is that magic DOES address the issues you brought up. You simply don't want to admit this because it removes a level of artificial parity that you seem to feel is necessary. To that end, you use words like "unexplained" or "undocumented", but you know what, Derren? Even a cursory look through the FRCS would show that, from the earliest of days, the Elves and the Dwarves traded natural resources for magic. So even if you want to discount the various ways one can get around component needs and such, there was a plausible basis for the beginnings of such a society. Beyond that, few elven communities have ever been self-started, bare-bones societies... and thus, I don't see the need to pretend that they would arrive at an empty lot without the resources needed to start (Wizards without components, people without tools, etc.).
Philalexandros 05-02-07, 06:12 PM	Boda, Isnt high magic only possible on evermeet? No. It's usable anywhere. What would i use against a high mage? A netherese arcanist, ... Yeah, there's a lot of those running around. ;) a witches circle, a red wizards circle, ... That's more plausible. Now, do you have enough? The Elves also have non-epic circles par excellence. Each Zulkir, assuming equal divisions of resources (and they're not equal, but, whatever) has available to him/her approx. 120 Red Wizards and approx. 600 other mages to command. He can't send all or even most of these to fight a realm the size of Myth Drannor, though, because doing so would leave his own realm unattended/unprotected before unfriendly peers and neighbors. a imaskar sorceror,..., Again, not exactly a plethora of these folks. ... hah, a chosen! A Chosen? Most Chosen don't necessarily stack up to a single High Magi one on one. Why do you assume that i would be tricked in fighting inside a mythal area of effect? If there are destroying their own country with a hurracane, ... No, no, no. I'm saying that High Mage/circle of High Magi is levelling YOUR countryside as YOUR army is marching through it. Why would they level their own beloved forests? That sounds ridiculous, but that's what high magic is. It's the sort of weapon that splits continents, turns entire kingdoms into blighted moors, or rains showers of meteors on whole nations. Has for them marching with mythal like protection, you realize that mythal's powers are defined, so if i cause a landslide, trebuchet bombardment, launch a hurracane own them, it's very unlikely that the high magic will save them. If you somehow got within range of the Mythal I suppose 2 out of 3 of the above could be considered a danger... Define effective. Well, let's see. Per the definition, "adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result" sounds about right. Now, where Civil War artillery is concerned, 12 horses were required to pull approx. 3800lbs worth of equipment for EACH cannon in a battery. No horses of course means no guns. Right there, your single cannon, with its 12 horses, 8 artillery men, and single officer, requires more resources than the single mage they equivocate to. A Brigade of Artillery during that era was made up of 5 Batteries of 6 guns each. Each Corps of Infantry (10-15,000 soldiers for a Union Corps; about 20,000 for a Confederate) was supported by a single Brigade of 30 cannon. So, you would have to account for 360 ponderously-moving horses pulling more than 1.3 million pounds of equipment--much of it volatile--and requiring 270 trained personnel. Given that over 400 Akh'Faern supported 3,000 soldiers (many of whom were also spellcasters), I would say that, no, Elves enjoyed a far-better "artillery" support system than Civil War armies did. That, of course, is assuming the Elves let themselves get into a conventional battle. But how about their effect on the battlefield? Doubtlessly, at ranges of over 1,000 meters, the cannon could harm enemies at ranges greater than those of most evoker spells (at minimum caster level, a wizard can only fire a fireball out to 600 feet--20% of the cannon's range). Cannon accuracy, however, is going to be far lesser than a wizard's. Furthermore, Civil War artillery rate of fire for the 12lb Napoleon gun was right around 2 rounds per minute. A wizard equipped with a wand of fireballs can out-fire the cannon at 5 to 1 ratio. And yet was more numerous then most elfs states. Not as accurate, but could go on for long time and greater range. As shown above, no, yes, no, and maybe. You always assume Cormanthyr or Evermeet power and numbers. So can i assume a powerful and numerous human nation to? Or i can only pick weak ones? Uhm, I have ALWAYS been assuming powerful nations. The problem is that you can't just say "Well, X goes to war with Y!" Halruaa definitely has the power to go toe-to-toe with an Evereska or Myth-Drannor-size realm. The problem is "Why would they?" Halruaa is on the other side of the continent, and has virtually NO interaction with Elves. Thay has the power to do so as well--but only if unified and if enjoyed secure borders... and they aren't and don't, respectively. Those are just a couple of examples.
Boda 05-02-07, 07:18 PM	Cant shade go toe to toe with evereska? And myth drannor, that a ruined elf kingdom, right? I f past examples are in use, ok, try cormanthyr vs netheril. There are as many netherese arcanists around as high mages. But more high lv conventional wizards in, let say, human side that in elven. And it would be easy to gather allies against a elven nation(drow,orc,etc). What makes you think that other races value their territories safety as much as elf do. If your uber elven army marches around my territories, why wouldnt my armies march on your capital? And i can always make a big offering to Malar for rent service of the Elf-eater.
Derren S. 05-02-07, 07:23 PM	Innately magical for me means that a race has natural magical abilities and that is simply not the case with elves. They might have a great magical tradition, but that is cultural, not racial (and imo does not fit very well with the usually chaotic alignment of elves. In fact the FR elves are heavily lawful. At least the moon elves. GothicDan once said that Sun Elves are lawful (gaming rules!) and as I haven't bothered to check I will simply believe that). What my problem is that you always say that elves have everything because of magic, assuming that elves somehow have much more and powerfull wizards than everyone else, so that they are able to keep their economy running and figting of enemies only with spells. Again, Sun elves might be able to do that, but moon elves won't have that much more wizards than humans because the number of wizards are limited be the amount of exceptional individuals with higher than normal Int. Sun elves have the advantage of a +2 Int so that the average elve is smart enough to become a weak wizard. And it seems that we will never agree on the "not documented power issue". For me it looks like El (and you) are trying to invent reasons (mostly be creating new spells powers) for why the elves are able live like they are described to do. But I don't accept creating new powers to plug logic holes, especially if those new powers are something which is also important for adventurers yet no adventurer will has that abilities, only NPCs because it is not mentioned in the PHB/FRCS (See photosynthesis). I also don't accept generalized statements like "There is magic for that" because such statments invite someone to gloss over the issue. Lets assume that a Wall of Thorns can be modified, how many castings do you think would you need to feed a large citiy of 20.000 people (ANd doesn't have a WoT a maximal duration? That means to food would disappear after the spell ends)? Even if every casting is enough for 50 people, that means that still 400 castings of that spell are required eah day just for food. Not to mention the logistical issues to deliver all the berries from the spellcasters who cast this spell to every citizen every day. And how long will it take to cast all this spells? The spellcasters would spend half of the day just to conjure food. That doesn't leave much time for improvement and research. And that is just the food. A advanced civilization (especially one with a haughty noble class like the sun elves have) require a lot of ressources which you simply can't get from a forest in large quantities. That means that the spellcasters have to conjure those ressources too. The drawback is that even the elves have only a limited number of spell slots availiable each day (and time). And casting a spell requires a material component most of the time, especially when the spell creates smething permanent which can be refined further like a Wall of Iron. That leads to some inifinite circles where spallcasters have to conjure materials which they can use to conjure other materials. Its simply impossible to get everything you need from a forest + magic. Elves would need to mine, to clear forests for farming, etc. You see, its a lot more complicated then to simply say "Elves are magical and there are certainly spells for that". Even your Mythals can't help you with that. Another big disadvantage for elves would be tactically (but that is also an issue with the civilization). Elven armies would be far from being disciplined. Elves are for the most part chaotic and that means there wouldn't be a rigid command structure or big battle plans. A army of elves wouldn't behave much differently than a army of goblins tactically. You can of course say that Sun Elves are lawful, but that means that the Moon elves would not like it to mingle with them very often. Law and Chaos are as opposed as good and evil. And while they would not fight against each other, moon elves would never accept the rigid, house based society of Sun elves while they would be disgusted by the unstructured Moon Elves society. So both races would stay away and only help each other when threatened, but because of the lack of interaction between those two races the cooperation wouldn't work perfectly. SOme words about the military, their reliance on small groups of ranged attackers and magic does make sense when you assume that their warfare style was formed by the war against the dragons (which are rather hard to fight with melee combat). But the problem is that they still use this fighting style without modification while making their primary home in a forest. In such an enviroment, spells and ranged attacks are at a disadvantage because the line of sight is very often blocked by trees. Saying that elves will detect and intercept every enemy outside of the forest is naive at best or rediculus at worst. Sure they can cast divinations (after they finished casting Wall of Berries) but the advancing army also has wizards who can block such divination or otherwise make the advance as hidden as possible. But all those issues get overlooked so that the elven society can as close as possible match the elven society in LotR. And if someone questions that society people will make (somethimes quite far fetched) thinks up to explain why even with huge logic holes elves can be and are exact LotR clones.
Philalexandros 05-02-07, 08:01 PM	Cant shade go toe to toe with evereska? Good question. I think I would give that one to Shade, but... as exhibited by the Archwizards Trilogy, the rest of the Elves wouldn't let the fight be just between those two states. And myth drannor, that a ruined elf kingdom, right? I f past examples are in use, ok, try cormanthyr vs netheril. Well, I think it's rather telling that those two cultures didn't fight one another. But I personally think that, unless there were far more High Magi than I imagine, Netheril would win. What makes you think that other races value their territories safety as much as elf do. If your uber elven army marches around my territories, why wouldnt my armies march on your capital? I'm not really sure what you mean here. Elven armies don't have a tradition of marching around anyone's territory. Were you talking about Thay? I meant unfriendly neighbors like other Thayan Zulkirs.
GothicDan 05-02-07, 08:29 PM	In fact the FR elves are heavily lawful. At least the moon elves. GothicDan once said that Sun Elves are lawful (gaming rules!) and as I haven't bothered to check I will simply believe that). I said that Sun Elves tend towards Law more often than other Elven subraces (going by cultural descriptions and alignments of printed Elven NPCs); I made no such claim for Moon Elves or any other subrace. And it seems that we will never agree on the "not documented power issue". For me it looks like El (and you) are trying to invent reasons (mostly be creating new spells powers) for why the elves are able live like they are described to do. But I don't accept creating new powers to plug logic holes, especially if those new powers are something which is also important for adventurers yet no adventurer will has that abilities, only NPCs because it is not mentioned in the PHB/FRCS (See photosynthesis). Magic, like science and art, advances. People research it, use different techniques, and create new things. If there's a problem or goal a person has, magic can, has been, and always will be, used to aid the situation, provided it can be procured or created. That's how technology has worked in our world, too. If you can't accept the invention, research, and modification of magic of magic, there's no way you'll be able to accurately discuss the Realms (or to a point, any D&D setting), because this logical assumption is already taken to be fact.
Philalexandros 05-02-07, 09:14 PM	Innately magical for me means that a race has natural magical abilities and that is simply not the case with elves. They might have a great magical tradition, but that is cultural, not racial (and imo does not fit very well with the usually chaotic alignment of elves. In fact the FR elves are heavily lawful. At least the moon elves. GothicDan once said that Sun Elves are lawful (gaming rules!) and as I haven't bothered to check I will simply believe that). I agree with the above 100%. As for alignment, I don't believe there are any regulating factors except for those that determine cleric alignment itself. I don't know about rules, but a majority of Sun Elf NPCs have been described as Lawful. Moon Elves tend to be Chaotic, and are certainly described as such. What my problem is that you always say that elves have everything because of magic, assuming that elves somehow have much more and powerfull wizards than everyone else, so that they are able to keep their economy running and figting of enemies only with spells. Again, Sun elves might be able to do that, but moon elves won't have that much more wizards than humans because the number of wizards are limited be the amount of exceptional individuals with higher than normal Int. Sun elves have the advantage of a +2 Int so that the average elve is smart enough to become a weak wizard. Well, hold on now. To begin with, most elf states are integrated societies. There might be individual Houses (extended families) out in the open that carry only a single bloodline, but modern elven cities, states, nations, etc., are a mixed bag affair. Beyond that, I have never argued that my examples apply broadly to each and every Elven state. Evereska, Cormanthyr, Evermeet, and other larger Elven enclaves certainly don't need to rely on mundane resource procurement. On the other hand, smaller communities (say, those in the hundreds) certainly need to maintain a level of contact with either the outside world (trading with humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, etc.) or with greater elven states (via portals, elf-gates) for support and for things they don't have. I tend to favor the latter approach (elf-gates or portals to Evereska or Evermeet) because the concept of the Retreat kind of makes the idea of maintaining contact with the very beings they want to leave behind kind of counter-intuitive, you know? ;) And it seems that we will never agree on the "not documented power issue". For me it looks like El (and you) are trying to invent reasons (mostly be creating new spells powers) for why the elves are able live like they are described to do. But I don't accept creating new powers to plug logic holes, especially if those new powers are something which is also important for adventurers yet no adventurer will has that abilities, only NPCs because it is not mentioned in the PHB/FRCS (See photosynthesis). But I don't do that, Derren. The magical aspects I refered to--such as those of the Mythals--have been canon for, well, forever. See more below. I also don't accept generalized statements like "There is magic for that" because such statments invite someone to gloss over the issue. Lets assume that a Wall of Thorns can be modified, how many castings do you think would you need to feed a large citiy of 20.000 people (ANd doesn't have a WoT a maximal duration? At minimum caster level, 9 ten foot cubes per casting can be created. What does that represent? Well, that's a good question. I'm by no means a fruit expert, but, as I recall, a good mature tree can bear about 400lbs of apples on a successful harvest... That's about 130 or apples for a 15ft high, 15ft-crown tree. How much do you think a magic tree should be able to bear? Other sort of orchards/yards will have different effects. For example (and I'm just throwing these out--I don't imagine they would all be used), strawberries, berries, oranges, grapes, bananas, etc., all provide larger and richer yields for the same areas mentioned above. Now, imagine that a Mythal has been set up, per LEoF, to have such a spell set up as a Vanguard spell. At will, any elf can cast Faelrin's Fruit Orchard (or whatever), as surely as he could Bull's Strength, Stoneskin, or whatever when the random orc happens to interrupt his stroll. At a minimum, you should at least see how something as simple as a one-time casting of the above spell can give you the resources for the pollination Greenwood was talking about. Fruit orchards require much less attention and work than grain farms, and that goes doubly so for orchards enhanced by Druidic magic (Plant Growth, 3rd lvl spell: "Enrichment: This effect targets plants within a range of one-half mile, raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal"). Beyond that, let's talk about Greenwood's ideas on elven dietary requirements. What is wrong with them? What material in any Realms products do they contradict? You've never seen them before, but then again you haven't seen any number of pertinent issues in any gaming product. They don't contradict anything--and they didn't make it into a supplement because most gamers typically don't view such matters as a priority. Given this, I don't understand your accusatory tone when it comes to the man spelling out stuff that he never was given a chance to properly describe. Quite simply, you're trying to project human concerns and problems to a race that is both alien, extra-planar, and biologically completely different. If they stayed in the woods just out of taste, and despite corresponding human needs, they would simply be stupid. More importantly, he doesn't reserve his affection and attention for that one race. Just so you know where I'm coming from, though, I asked the same question, years ago, about Dwarves as well. I wasn't just looking at one race. How do you think Dwarven diet shapes up? What do you think about their agricultural situation? And that is just the food. A advanced civilization (especially one with a haughty noble class like the sun elves have) require a lot of ressources which you simply can't get from a forest in large quantities. That means that the spellcasters have to conjure those ressources too. The drawback is that even the elves have only a limited number of spell slots availiable each day (and time). The question still remains: how much do they need? How often is it needed? Where do elves get all their steel? How about all that mithril for their oodles of Elven Chainmail? We know they don't mine it. The overwhelming majority of elven nations are nowhere near mountains, nor do they feature mining activity. So how do they get it? We know that, at first, they traded Dwarves magic for both resources and crafted items. Is that still the case? Why don't we hear anything about these (by your own volition) supposedly massive mercantile arrangements, then? The fact of the matter is that we know, courtesy of Races of Faerun and FRCS, that most elves don't walk around with random crap weapons, armor, and housewares. So we can do away with a round-the-clock arms and equipment industry. And casting a spell requires a material component most of the time, especially when the spell creates smething permanent which can be refined further like a Wall of Iron. That leads to some inifinite circles where spallcasters have to conjure materials which they can use to conjure other materials. No. For one thing, components, more often than not, are required in quantities far lesser than those of the products received in exchange. For another, you're assuming a starting resource pool of zero, with each casting putting the community in the red. That's simply not the case. For the record, I want it to be pointed out that the above represent only two different ideas. There's many more, of course that can be addressed via magic with less time and effort than it would take to undertake activities that, as stated before, the elves are never shown engaging in. Another big disadvantage for elves would be tactically (but that is also an issue with the civilization). Elven armies would be far from being disciplined. Elves are for the most part chaotic and that means there wouldn't be a rigid command structure or big battle plans. Chaotic alignment and working well with others are not mutually exclusive concepts. If anything, though, such concepts would be more likely to form the sort of armies Dan and I have argued for--smaller bands of elites and wizards who have a say in the making of plans thanks to their greater experience. I agree that elves would be wasted in massed ranks, and would likely also be miserable tin them. A army of elves wouldn't behave much differently than a army of goblins tactically. That's just silly. Comathyr: Empire of Elves gives a good description of the Akh'Velarn and the Akh'Faern, and in both experience, variety, equipment, and leadership, I daresay they are the best fighting force described in a Realms product. The concepts of discipline, cohesion, trust in one another, and respect for leadership are all there. The sole exception to this--Sun Elf frustration at following lessers--is qualified as being symptomatic of the time and place. But the problem is that they still use this fighting style without modification while making their primary home in a forest. In such an enviroment, spells and ranged attacks are at a disadvantage because the line of sight is very often blocked by trees. Such disadvantages are easily offset, though. I know you'll hate me saying it... but, through magic. ;) Saying that elves will detect and intercept every enemy outside of the forest is naive at best or rediculus at worst. I didn't say that; I said they could detect and intercept an army coming toward their forest. Why would that be unrealistic? Sure they can cast divinations (after they finished casting Wall of Berries) but the advancing army also has wizards who can block such divination or otherwise make the advance as hidden as possible. There you go again, with your artificial parity. For this debate to be even half-way legitimate, why don't you simply list which nation will march on the two actual elven nations on continental Faerun (if you include the, as of 1382 or so, re-made Myth-Drannor)? Because I'm curious to know who these mysterious invaders and their wizardly allies are. ;) I don't want the Elves to be LotR clones. I don't think any of the above make them clones.
GothicDan 05-03-07, 02:11 AM	Yeah. I'd certainly love to see where Tolkien talks about his Elves ever using anything remotely related to Elven High Magic. Heck, having read the Silmarillion, in terms of actual 'spellcasting,' Tolkien's Elves don't seem that magically powerful, so much as innately magical and gifted.
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 08:25 AM	As I recall, the "specialness" of the LotR elves is that they resided in essentially divine lands for much of their history. When they show up at Middle Earth, they're hardly spell-slinging monsters. In fact, their greatest attribute is that they are paragon craftsmen--to the point where they *make* "magical" things--up to, and including, the Silmarillion. Ironically, Derren, it is LotR elves who marshall themselves in grand armies of swordsmen, spearmen, and bowmen and meet the forces of evil in pitched combat. Their society is the one that closely mirrors human considerations and necessities--the food-gathering, mining, etc., that you are calling for. I find it rather paradoxical that you are trying to make the thing that you dislike into the thing you hate, while at the same time claiming you are trying to avoid just that. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 12:36 PM	Cant shade go toe to toe with evereska? -I always have opportunities to use this one. See the Shade Vs. Evermeet Thread. :)
GothicDan 05-03-07, 01:06 PM	I find it rather paradoxical that you are trying to make the thing that you dislike into the thing you hate, while at the same time claiming you are trying to avoid just that. It seems to me that this is largely Derren's misconception. He keeps referring to people trying to make FR's Elves like Tolkien's, without actually knowing much about the latter in the first place.
Derren S. 05-03-07, 01:34 PM	You are having the wrong perspective. I don't mean how the elves go to war (magic vs. army) but how are elves are portrayed. In Lotr elves are superior to every other "normal" race. It seems (according to the LotR triology) that elves have no problems and can easily do what while the humans and all otehr races have to struggle to match the elves in every aspect of life. And that s how elves are mostly displayed in the realms too. They sit in their beautifull and masterly crafted forest cities having the best magical items in the realms (for example Crownblades), having the best and most powerfull magic in the realms (High Magic), and do not have any problems with getting what they want. No matter how exotic someone is, the elves can use it in crafing and spellcasting (which is of course the best and most beautyfull in the whole Realms) even though they never leave their forest and also otherwise don't mine for resources. It can be that the Simarillion describes different, less perfect elves but I have only read the LotR.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 01:38 PM	You are having the wrong perspective. I don't mean how the elves go to war (magic vs. army) but how are elves are portrayed. In Lotr elves are superior to every other "normal" race. It seems (according to the LotR triology) that elves have no problems and can easily do what while the humans and all otehr races have to struggle to match the elves in every aspect of life. -While Elves have superiority in many things, there are many other qualities that others have that balance this out (Netheril, for example). No matter how exotic someone is, the elves can use it in crafing and spellcasting (which is of course the best and most beautyfull in the whole Realms) even though they never leave their forest and also otherwise don't mine for resources. -Who needs to mine when magic is common? -And, don't forget that Tolkien drew his inspiration from various European myths and stories. So there is a sort of..."basis" that all Elves need to have.
GothicDan 05-03-07, 01:42 PM	And that s how elves are mostly displayed in the realms too. They sit in their beautifull and masterly crafted forest cities having the best magical items in the realms (for example Crownblades), You're implying that there's no human crafted magical items of equal or greater power? How about the Scepter of the Sorcerer-Kings or the Imaskarcana? having the best and most powerfull magic in the realms (High Magic), Originally, Elven High Magic was merely a way for Elves to cast 8th and 9th level Wizard spells, which humans already could. Eventually, it turned into them being able to cast Elven High Magic Rituals, which put them about on power with the Netherese and Imaskari, yet had much stricter requirements, required more patience and community, and took longer to utilize. and do not have any problems with getting what they want. Really? When they wanted a homeland and created Evermeet, they broke the entire continent. Myth Drannor, the most beloved jewel of Elven cities in recent history, fell to an army of fiends. What history are you reading? No matter how exotic someone is, the elves can use it in crafing and spellcasting (which is of course the best and most beautyfull in the whole Realms) Examples? even though they never leave their forest and also otherwise don't mine for resources. The Elves leave their forests a lot. The Moon Elves and the Sun Elves do it quite a lot, in fact. And why would they mine when they - or any other culture with a long history of magic - don't have to? Derren, again, your assertions have no actual basis in Realms fact. You're once more trying to make FR Elves like those of Tolkien, merely so you can hate them. This is utterly illogical. If I didn't like something, I wouldn't try to make it more prevalent.
boards 05-03-07, 10:29 PM	As I recall, the "specialness" of the LotR elves is that they resided in essentially divine lands for much of their history. When they show up at Middle Earth, they're hardly spell-slinging monsters. In fact, their greatest attribute is that they are paragon craftsmen--to the point where they *make* "magical" things--up to, and including, the Silmarillion. Ironically, Derren, it is LotR elves who marshall themselves in grand armies of swordsmen, spearmen, and bowmen and meet the forces of evil in pitched combat. Their society is the one that closely mirrors human considerations and necessities--the food-gathering, mining, etc., that you are calling for. I find it rather paradoxical that you are trying to make the thing that you dislike into the thing you hate, while at the same time claiming you are trying to avoid just that. ;) I didnt want to get into this because last it closed a thread, but Phil has this exactly right, Elves of LotR live and fight much more like humans than FR elves. The reason why they have similarities is because they both draw from elves of Northen European Myths. Basically if you are going to have an elf, there are certain aspects you need to consider otherwise it is not an elf, it is something else.
Prince Indirian 05-04-07, 02:10 PM	I think we are greatly overestimating the amount of magic elves have. Yes elves have "more" magic than most, but magic is still somewhat uncommon. Generally speaking only those with an Int above 14 might become mages. Though you "only" have to have 11 to use arcane magic (0-lvl doesn't count:P). However it costs (time, money etc) to teach a person magic and so the governments might feel it's better to spend it on the absolutely best and most brilliant people. And notice that Int 10 is the average Int. Though among Sun Elves and Drow 12 is...but as a whole among elves (all subraces including Drow) 10 is likely the average, nine if you exclude some subraces. Also High Magic hasn't been used "offensively" for a VERY long time. During the Weeping War it was used to "mass-produce" (sic!) magical arms,armor etc. I was sometimes a bit amazed why the High Mages didn't blow away the Army of Darkness from the face of Faerun. But I then I realized they are not Drow/Illithyr or Aryvandaar for that matter...at least not anymore. Also note the rarity of the High Mages, there are about 12 High Mages in the realms...wow... But all the nuclear capabilities (of High Magic) aren't really options any longer. The elves quite frankly don't want to go there again. Ever. Not to mention High Magic today is a lot weaker than in the past .So the elves wont use any High Magic to annihilate armies, they just don't do that. With that said Meteor Swarm (just an example) etc works perfectly fine. But it uses fire doesn't it ? Ouch, from an elven point of view ;). And you have to be quite close to use that spell. And above all 17th+ lvl mages are RARE, they definitely don't grow on trees. Once again the DMG tells us that basically only big cities have these dudes...and dudettes, let's not be sexist here.:). Though in my opinion the elves need to adopt the "Powell Doctrine" (though I suspect the have been using that back in the days). And if we went into the novel area...High Mages sure as hell don't fight that well anymore...just ask the phaerimm Also I find the whole "we use magic for everything" a little "lacking". The elves have 25000+ years of living with nature (in Faerun) surely they know how acquire food and resources without magic. Even in a "forest". The Drow are not described as using magic to acquire food or do menial work (but then again they have slaves, but slaves are usually not that tasty;) ) and the under-dark is far more harsh than the surface. Though magic can of course reduce the amount of work needed. But if magic is used to solve all issues and all shores, then I guess elves don't need hunters, miners, smiths etc. Unemployment must be quite high among them elves. Unless all elves are wizards this just wont work. I see elven magic as (major) complement not a complete replacement. It's there to support and aid. Not replace. Wizards are extraordinary characters, but can they supply an entire elven realm, protect an entire elven realm and study at the same time ? Races of the Wild describes Elves as very independent and very self-sufficient and all of this fits very well with their alignment.. After all elves have all the TIME in the world (well not really but 400 or so), so there isn't really any tine . This doesn't make the elves less magical, just that they have better things to spend their magic on. Like MAGIC items for instance. I see elven communities being lighted up by continual lights (Myth Drannor had this feature). If anything the elves use their magic more so for utility cases than in military (though of course they use them there as well). Races of the wild also speaks of elves using magic much more defensively since elves are very loath to fight from the very beginning (why risk your life when you have so much left "live out") . So magical spells are placed in in strategic areas to detect enemies, scrying etc. According to Races of the wild, spell-casters are always present at major battles augmenting the archers with the usual artillery. Elves according to RoW are more ranged fighters than close combat. Also notice that buying (yes that's what you do technically) the services of mage is quite expensive. Every fireball used in war could be used to magic summon food as has been proposed. A fireball thrown at it highest damage capabilities (not counting meta-magic feat etc) costs 300 GP at least. A mercenary cost Sp a day and probably more if you are actually at war. Sure the fireball is 20 times more efficient but we have to take into account the economics behind it. However elven life is worth so much more than 300 GP. An elf can live maybe 400 years on average, so we can assume that he can produce more than 300 Gps worth during those 400 years. And that's merely as a laborer. According to my calculations (which was done quite liberally) a laborer who works everyday his entire life (without buying anything) can gain a fortune of 14600 GP. Let's say taxes are 10%, that would mean we could lose up to 1460 GP if he dies before he has reached 400 years. Now why would you risk him him on battlefield (though note the use of longbow, which is prevalent)? He's better of producing/working and paying taxes. The reason elves might fight like they might be that they don't have "that" much magic as some are proposing. Simply going by the DMG the elves don't have that MANY mages growing on trees. There is a reason why ALL elves learn to use the sword and bow... With that said I think the elves as whole can probably muster more mages in times of war then other people/cultures can even said nations had the same amount of mages. And that's simply because elves are more concerned on an average of the well-being of their community. I also want to add that the moon elves that serve in the elven armies are not as chaotic when they enter it. The evermeet source-book mention such a noble who parties all the day and night, but when it's time for military service, they get their acts together. Same thing with their magic studies.
Philalexandros 05-04-07, 05:50 PM	I think we are greatly overestimating the amount of magic elves have. I'm fairly sure I'm not. When possible, I prefer to work within the constraints of canon material. Here's something to put things in perspective... Cormanthyr had more than 450 wizards simply for its Akh'Faern. In addition, we are told of 120 or so Armathor spellcasters. Finally, we have the Protectors of the Akh'Velarn, all of whom also have spellcasting levels... Depending on how you read their entry, there's either about 500 or 1,000 of them hanging around. That's 1070-1570 arcane spellcasters out of a population of around 60,000, and we haven't even began counting independent operatives yet. Yes elves have "more" magic than most, but magic is still somewhat uncommon. By what standards? Every indication afforded by canon sources shows that when Elves gather in numbers, impressive magic invariably follows. Evereska and Myth Drannor were the major enclaves remaining on Faerun for centuries, and both featured tremendous amounts of magic propping up their infrastructure. Generally speaking only those with an Int above 14 might become mages. Though you "only" have to have 11 to use arcane magic (0-lvl doesn't count:P). However it costs (time, money etc) to teach a person magic and so the governments might feel it's better to spend it on the absolutely best and most brilliant people. And notice that Int 10 is the average Int. Though among Sun Elves and Drow 12 is...but as a whole among elves (all subraces including Drow) 10 is likely the average, nine if you exclude some subraces. You're arguing mechanical semantics, though. To begin with, attributes are based on random dice-rolling. Theoretically, there should be Sun Elves (albeit a minority) with an INT score of only 5. The canon information for the actual instances within the game world do not rely on random dice rolls, though. They work off of an established basis of a magic-central culture and society, in which magical skill and the development of cerebral skills will result in greater instances of spellcasting knowledge. Also High Magic hasn't been used "offensively" for a VERY long time. During the Weeping War it was used to "mass-produce" (sic!) magical arms,armor etc. Sure, but High Magic doesn't need to be exclusively hostile/devastating. Theoretically, a benign High Magi could (for example) research a permanent Mass Charm effect that captures anyone who who views him... and simply send an opposing army away. I was sometimes a bit amazed why the High Mages didn't blow away the Army of Darkness from the face of Faerun. But I then I realized they are not Drow/Illithyr or Aryvandaar for that matter...at least not anymore. I'm kind of "eeeh" on such instances also, but I understand that plot elements sometimes simply need to be accepted with a suspension of disbelief. Myth Drannor had to die to be reborn, authors aren't perfect, and so neither are the tales they spin. And if we went into the novel area...High Mages sure as hell don't fight that well anymore...just ask the phaerimm Yeah, the battle descriptions in those books, sad to say, were kind of a joke. The High Magi were described more or less as individual wizards that just got destroyed in evoker duels. Again, a story needed to be told, and it was... less than perfectly, IMHO. Also I find the whole "we use magic for everything" a little "lacking". The elves have 25000+ years of living with nature (in Faerun) surely they know how acquire food and resources without magic. Nobody said they didn't. But it's fairly obvious that elves, unlike humans, don't invest either a great deal of their land or their people in food production. References of mining are, what, nil? By contrast, we have specific instances of spells that raise entire towers from the ground. We have the game setting's own developer telling us that they only require so much food to live, and that a mythal cuts those scant requirements to a mere 3% of normal consumption. Page 123 of "Cormanthyr" does an excellent job of showing exactly what kind of a role magic plays in Elven life. I invite you to check it out. The Drow are not described as using magic to acquire food or do menial work (but then again they have slaves, but slaves are usually not that tasty;) ) and the under-dark is far more harsh than the surface. No, you nailed it. Drow do have their own alternate means. Drow of the Underdark and Drizzt's Guide to the Underdark specifically cite the use of thousands upon thousands of slaves (Menzoberranyr Drow, are, in fact, outnumbered almost 2-1 by their servants) who harvest fungi, mushroom fields, etc., and tend to herds of rothe. But if magic is used to solve all issues and all shores, then I guess elves don't need hunters, miners, smiths etc. That's not true. We know there's a great deal of hunters, as there are, again, hundreds of Rangers in the Cormanthyr armed forces alone. We also know there are many skilled craftsmen, since Races of Faerun specifically cites the mastery of their works. What we don't see a lot of is menial labor. We don't see a lot of instances of miners, farmers, construction workers, stable-boys, herders, etc. Unemployment must be quite high among them elves. Unless all elves are wizards this just wont work. I see elven magic as (major) complement not a complete replacement. Nobody said it was a complete replacement. Wizards are extraordinary characters, but can they supply an entire elven realm, protect an entire elven realm and study at the same time ? Depends on the place and their numbers. Races of the Wild describes Elves as very independent and very self-sufficient and all of this fits very well with their alignment.. I find it odd that you checked out a generic game supplement rather than the setting-specific products, like Races of Faerun. ;) This doesn't make the elves less magical, just that they have better things to spend their magic on. Like MAGIC items for instance. I see elven communities being lighted up by continual lights (Myth Drannor had this feature). You just cited a Mythal feature, IIRC. If anything the elves use their magic more so for utility cases than in military (though of course they use them there as well). I don't disagree with that at all. I believe that the spellcasters serving in Cormanthyr's forces were, on average, higher level than civilians, but I also believe that they (despite numbering between 1000-1500 out of 60,000 citizens) were the minority of spellcasters. This is reinforced by page 11 of Cormanthyr: "Elven wizards are a special lot, given their innate connections with magic and the Weave. Wizards in the classic sense of the AD&D game are far more numerous among the elves than in any other race on Toril." Also notice that buying (yes that's what you do technically) the services of mage is quite expensive. That's assuming one is dealing with a societal model that has mercenary sensibilities. Quite obviously this isn't the case here, though. Beyond that, I don't see the point of slapping a human tax system and labor-for-profit model that doesn't really apply to the people we're talking about. You're addressing considerations and requirements that don't even exist in most elven communities. The reason elves might fight like they might be that they don't have "that" much magic as some are proposing. Simply going by the DMG the elves don't have that MANY mages growing on trees. There is a reason why ALL elves learn to use the sword and bow... The DMG isn't Realms-specific, though. Realms products are Realms specific, and thus trump non-setting material.
Prince Indirian 05-05-07, 09:16 AM	I'm fairly sure I'm not. When possible, I prefer to work within the constraints of canon material. Here's something to put things in perspective... Cormanthyr had more than 450 wizards simply for its Akh'Faern. In addition, we are told of 120 or so Armathor spellcasters. Finally, we have the Protectors of the Akh'Velarn, all of whom also have spellcasting levels... Depending on how you read their entry, there's either about 500 or 1,000 of them hanging around. That's 1070-1570 arcane spellcasters out of a population of around 60,000, and we haven't even began counting independent operatives yet. Hm, sure they had 450 military mages+120 armathors. That's 570. We don't know anything about the protectors in terms of numbers. But consider that they were ELITE, so their numbers are likely very low. Out of 3000 elves I would put them at 300 at most or so at most. So 870 spellcasting troops in MD Also are you saying that the entire realm of Cormanthyr had a population of 60000. Personally I have never read that 60000 number anywhere. But Cormanthyran Military was charged to protect the ENTIRE realm rather than the city. The Armathors and in a few cases the protectors were charged with securing the city. And it's likely that all the battle mages were drawn from the realm as awhole rather than the City. Since we have mages from all around being part of Ak'faern we can assume this. As the largest collective military group, the akh'velahrn easily defend the entire woods, but they rarely if ever operate within the city of Myth Drannor; the defense of the city is left strictly to the armathors (unless Protectors are employed by a Myth Drannan noble house in some way). By what standards? Every indication afforded by canon sources shows that when Elves gather in numbers, impressive magic invariably follows. Evereska and Myth Drannor were the major enclaves remaining on Faerun for centuries, and both featured tremendous amounts of magic propping up their infrastructure. By DnD standards since we haven't got any numbers, that say for example that 20% of all elves are wizards. And notice numbers, of course if you gather one of the most magic heavy races (this doesn't mean all elves are wizards) in the realms you'll get some stuff. You're arguing mechanical semantics, though. To begin with, attributes are based on random dice-rolling. Theoretically, there should be Sun Elves (albeit a minority) with an INT score of only 5. The canon information for the actual instances within the game world do not rely on random dice rolls, though. They work off of an established basis of a magic-central culture and society, in which magical skill and the development of cerebral skills will result in greater instances of spellcasting knowledge. Well NpC have a generic standard array and it's from there I am working. Sure, but High Magic doesn't need to be exclusively hostile/devastating. Theoretically, a benign High Magi could (for example) research a permanent Mass Charm effect that captures anyone who who views him... and simply send an opposing army away. Maybe, but have we seen such ? I'm kind of "eeeh" on such instances also, but I understand that plot elements sometimes simply need to be accepted with a suspension of disbelief. Myth Drannor had to die to be reborn, authors aren't perfect, and so neither are the tales they spin. Well I got that as well, but it's just feelt as if they could have made things simple for themselves. But we should note that using High Magic during this age was VERY dangerous. Karsus Folly had changed quite a few things. So they migh have ended up destroying Cormanthyr as realm or some such Nobody said they didn't. But it's fairly obvious that elves, unlike humans, don't invest either a great deal of their land or their people in food production. References of mining are, what, nil? By contrast, we have specific instances of spells that raise entire towers from the ground. We have the game setting's own developer telling us that they only require so much food to live, and that a mythal cuts those scant requirements to a mere 3% of normal consumption. Yeah, but how High lvl are these spells. And how many elven nations/realms, communities have Mythals ? Page 123 of "Cormanthyr" does an excellent job of showing exactly what kind of a role magic plays in Elven life. I invite you to check it out. Yeah, I read it especially the part of physical and magical tools. No, you nailed it. Drow do have their own alternate means. Drow of the Underdark and Drizzt's Guide to the Underdark specifically cite the use of thousands upon thousands of slaves (Menzoberranyr Drow, are, in fact, outnumbered almost 2-1 by their servants) who harvest fungi, mushroom fields, etc., and tend to herds of rothe. They have seriosuly pulled down those numbers now though. Sadly... That's not true. We know there's a great deal of hunters, as there are, again, hundreds of Rangers in the Cormanthyr armed forces alone. We also know there are many skilled craftsmen, since Races of Faerun specifically cites the mastery of their works. Irony...;) oh and just because they are skilled dosn't mean there are many... What we don't see a lot of is menial labor. We don't see a lot of instances of miners, farmers, construction workers, stable-boys, herders, etc. The thing is even that exist RoW mentions that as well. Though an elven farmer would very much different from an human. He would have more magical items to aid as well as consulting his local druid about various issues so that nature isn't harmed. Nobody said it was a complete replacement. The feeling I got... Depends on the place and their numbers. Find me a realm where 30 % are wizards...please...of course this an exegerration...but you get m point. I find it odd that you checked out a generic game supplement rather than the setting-specific products, like Races of Faerun. ;) RoF is lacking in various areas, like how elven love works out etc. Let me add that the Complete Book of Elves that some are so fond of was a generic game supplement. You just cited a Mythal feature, IIRC. It can easily be done without a Mythal... I don't disagree with that at all. I believe that the spellcasters serving in Cormanthyr's forces were, on average, higher level than civilians, but I also believe that they (despite numbering between 1000-1500 out of 60,000 citizens) were the minority of spellcasters. This is reinforced by page 11 of Cormanthyr: "Elven wizards are a special lot, given their innate connections with magic and the Weave. Wizards in the classic sense of the AD&D game are far more numerous among the elves than in any other race on Toril." I don't disagree that elves have more mages than others, what I might disagree is the actual number. That's assuming one is dealing with a societal model that has mercenary sensibilities. Quite obviously this isn't the case here, though. Beyond that, I don't see the point of slapping a human tax system and labor-for-profit model that doesn't really apply to the people we're talking about. You're addressing considerations and requirements that don't even exist in most elven communities. Actually do we know if the elves don't gather taxes ? The elves have used mercenaries (adventurers) in the past. The DMG isn't Realms-specific, though. Realms products are Realms specific, and thus trump non-setting material. True, but we have got no actual NUMBERS on this. The DMG gives a hints of high a socity is built up. In sheer numbers etc. The realms specific mostöy hint. Or in a few cases give us pure numbers. You still haven't been able to tell me how great a deal of an elven community or realm that are mages...the DMG (it adjusts to certain races and so) can
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 12:38 PM	Hm, sure they had 450 military mages+120 armathors. That's 570. We don't know anything about the protectors in terms of numbers. But consider that they were ELITE, so their numbers are likely very low. Out of 3000 elves I would put them at 300 at most or so at most. So 870 spellcasting troops in MD I'll buy that--I was clearly off in my posting last night; I apologize for mixing up my numbers (I believe I kept the Wing and Horn as a separate force). Also are you saying that the entire realm of Cormanthyr had a population of 60000. Personally I have never read that 60000 number anywhere. The population of Myth Drannor in C:EoE was listed at around 54,000. Adding all the other cited communities (even the minor villages) brings this figure up to 58,500. Are there more elves? Maybe. Probably. Significantly more? I doubt it. Not if they bothered to qualify little villages fof 50-70 elves in their list. Large swathes of Cormanthyr, such as the Elven Court, which comprises seemingly 1/4 of Cormanthyr aren't even habited anymore. Other large swathes, such as the Lake Sember region, are listed as having only 2,500 or so inhabitants in total. By DnD standards since we haven't got any numbers, that say for example that 20% of all elves are wizards. I don't necessarily disagree with the figure... as much as I disagree with the way we're coming up with figures. Why 20%? And notice numbers, of course if you gather one of the most magic heavy races (this doesn't mean all elves are wizards) in the realms you'll get some stuff. Can you clarify this? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Well NpC have a generic standard array and it's from there I am working. Again, you're working off of a generic template that is meant to aid a DM. I'm talking about the canonic Realms representation. The latter simply does not fit in with any of the DMG tools. Consider, for example, the fact that the Akh'Faern alone completely break the DMG's population breakdown concept by overloading the amount of wizards a community can have. Maybe, but have we seen such ? I don't see how this matters, considering that much of what we're talking about regarding elven military practices is theoretical. I am arguing that the *current depiction* (which has little to do with my ideas) is plainly unrealistic. To elaborate, I am arguing that the elves have certain demonstrated and stated capabilities that they fail to use for incomprehensible reasons. Yeah, but how High lvl are these spells. Some are, some aren't. And how many elven nations/realms, communities have Mythals ? Going by the list of Mythals, all or most of the major ones. A quick aside, if I may. I think there is a D&D-reinforced misconception that elves predominately hang around in many small communities. Cormanthyr shows that this was not the case when the elves were still in force in Faerun. It makes it rather apparent that most prefer to reside within the central community when possible, enjoying the benefits of doing so. The same seems to be true of Evereska. I think that, where the Realms are concerned, the phenomenon of smaller, isolated elven communities is symptomatic and reflective of the Retreat rather than of actual societal mode. Those communities do tend to exhibited the traits of a less magical society, and likely do rely more on conventional means such as foraging and hunting. Even they, however, would not be hard-pressed for food production. Not when "handfuls of berries," easy game, and easy catch are available. Especially not when their fewer numbers mean less stress on their environment. Magic (warp wood, shape wood) is still likely responsible for many of their dwellings. This is again feasible given their small numbers. It is unrealistic, though, to pin all this work on the fewer mages of this smaller community with the mindset of their having to accomplish it in the short term and with a sense of immediacy. Even these small communities have probably existed for hundreds of years, and have been developed over time. Yeah, I read it especially the part of physical and magical tools. I never denied they used physical tools. I stated that magic is a great part of their lives. That much is made abundantly clear by the cited page. Irony...;) oh and just because they are skilled dosn't mean there are many... There don't need to be that many. We're talking about extremely long-lived people with an eye toward extremely long-lived things. Different strokes for different folks will obviously be the order of the day, but I don't see elven families running to a craftsman for new plates or silverware every few months. Houses being what they are, such needs are almost certainly addressed internally. The thing is even that exist RoW mentions that as well. Though an elven farmer would very much different from an human. He would have more magical items to aid as well as consulting his local druid about various issues so that nature isn't harmed. Again, RoW is not Realms specific. It illustrates a D&D-generic outlook that does not necessarily reflect on the Realms. Ed Greenwood's canonic statements show exactly how off RoW is in regards with fitting in the Realms. Find me a realm where 30 % are wizards...please...of course this an exegerration...but you get m point. Why on earth would they need 30%? You answered your own question--it's an exaggeration. Quite obviously Cormanthyr had enough spellcasters to do all of the above! Both C:EoE and Ed Greenwood provide ample testimony to this fact. The same can be said for Evereska. RoF is lacking in various areas, like how elven love works out etc. Let me add that the Complete Book of Elves that some are so fond of was a generic game supplement. Those are completely different things, though. RoF does not address many concepts out of consideration for space. Ed Greenwood fills that void, though. RoW and CBE, on the other hand, attempt to fill that void with information that contradicts Realmsian canon--and are thus invalid. It can easily be done without a Mythal... A moot point... since elves created Mythals to do away with the need for crafting or casting such effects over and over. I don't disagree that elves have more mages than others, what I might disagree is the actual number. Which number is that? We agree on the above--roughly 800-900 spellcasters in the military alone. Do you disagree that, among a highly magic-using race there are more civilian spellcasters than ones dedicated to security and military affairs? Actually do we know if the elves don't gather taxes ? The elves have used mercenaries (adventurers) in the past. I don't believe they do. Ed's answers on elven diet and food production pointed at shared resources in terms of those orchards they did plant within their communities and forestlands. Although vague, surface elven houses seem to be extended family units or at least groups of families allied to a central, leading family. Loyalty and obedience to a central power (such as a Coronal) appears to come from a moral, almost religious, imperative or following a somewhat meritocratic approach (he who wields the Crownblade rules Cormanthyr, for example). C:EoE does specifically qualify (pg 63, IIRC) that the majority of trade is internal and that centrally issues coinage is used for trade. Taxes, on the other hand, indicate a level of capitalism that I think is at odds with the often cooperativist elven mindset. True, but we have got no actual NUMBERS on this. The DMG gives a hints of high a socity is built up. In sheer numbers etc. The realms specific mostöy hint. Or in a few cases give us pure numbers. You still haven't been able to tell me how great a deal of an elven community or realm that are mages...the DMG (it adjusts to certain races and so) can It doesn't matter... because the DMG is NOT Realms specific. I have been able, however, to prove to you that--merely for military matters--Myth Drannor has far and away far more mages than the DMG states it should have. That product in and of itself (as well as Ed's testimony) show that they DID have enough mages to accomplish the things I'm arguing for. Just for giggles, beyond the already ridiculous roster of mages we've gone through, let's also see those represented in the listed Houses of Cormanthyr: 51 arcane spellcasters, of whom 21 are lvl 20-29; 11 are lvl 15-19; the rest are predominately lvl 10-14. And that's just going by the House Speaker (lord/lady), Heir, Elder, and Archmage. The book doesn't bother to list their apprentices. We know that it wouldn't just be those listed personages; Elves of Evermeet makes references to Houses such as Nierdre and Raedrimne, which number a handful of survivors and 20 elves, respectively, and they are the exception. By contrast, Houses such as Durothil are mentioned as having "several" High Mages alone. Furthermore, this, again, is only indicative of SOME of the Houses--a minority of the population. It doesn't even address any of the non-noble spellcasters.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 04:12 PM	Mmm, House Durothil. :)
Alediran 05-05-07, 05:20 PM	Mmm, House Durothil. :) And the houses who split from it also :D (like the one I created)
boards 05-05-07, 08:07 PM	I havent looked at it for a while but doesnt the Shining South say that Halruaa has approximately 30% of the population able to cast at least cantrips. Given that elves are meant to have more magic casters than other races we can say that at least 30% and most like more are able to weild some form of magic, even if it is just cantrips or 1st level spells. Given the sheer obsession for spell casting and magic items that Silver and Gold Elves are described as having, I would say that there would be more than enough magic in the area to live as Phill has been saying. Green and Copper elves may be a bit different but they appear to live in small enough groups that magic would not be required to provide enough food for them to survive. However Ed's novel EiMD suggests that there is a menial class to elves that do things like collect food, as Ithrythra Mornmist is sneered at for collecting mushrooms like a commoner. Galan Goadulphyn mugs an elf for his mushrooms who calls himself a simple farmer. So while magic is most likely used to help grow the food, it seems that common labour is used to collect much of it.
Boda 05-06-07, 10:30 PM	The real problem is usually only nobles and adventurers are depicted. Very little is said about the society in general(drow break this trend). So if elfs got all this power and dont use it,...,maybe they're just dumb, or have moral restriction to use magic in such a way?
GothicDan 05-06-07, 10:36 PM	Actually, RoF and Cormanthyr touch a bit on non-Noble Elven culture in general. For instance, it says even the most modest Sun Elf home has an expansive library.
Boda 05-07-07, 07:56 AM	Actually, RoF and Cormanthyr touch a bit on non-Noble Elven culture in general. For instance, it says even the most modest Sun Elf home has an expansive library. ''a bit''-tha's my point.
Philalexandros 05-07-07, 09:13 AM	Did you read the entry, Boda? It seemed like it covered more than a bit to me. ;) It also, incidentally, answered your question (about why they have all this power but don't use it). See the 3rd paragraph of the History section, page 40.
Prince Indirian 05-07-07, 01:15 PM	The population of Myth Drannor in C:EoE was listed at around 54,000. Adding all the other cited communities (even the minor villages) brings this figure up to 58,500. Are there more elves? Maybe. Probably. Significantly more? I doubt it. Not if they bothered to qualify little villages fof 50-70 elves in their list. Large swathes of Cormanthyr, such as the Elven Court, which comprises seemingly 1/4 of Cormanthyr aren't even habited anymore. Other large swathes, such as the Lake Sember region, are listed as having only 2,500 or so inhabitants in total. I never read that number that's why I am wondering. 60000 for the entire realm is very VERY little. I think I will ask some folks over at Candlekeep if then know is something extra was written about this. I don't necessarily disagree with the figure... as much as I disagree with the way we're coming up with figures. Why 20%? Just a number, nothing else. Can you clarify this? I'm not sure what you're saying here. I was agreeing, saying that of course you will see impressive magic when elves gather in those numbers. But surely your average elven community will note be close to this. If we gathered all Red wizards in a city for some grand event (let say they feelt for doing something communal) we would also see impressive magic. But that doesn't mean that Thay as a whole has magic everywhere (though in this case the Thayans are actually a magical powerhouse, they are major suppliers of magic items). My point is that average elven community on the mainland likely doesn't blister with magic (this doesn't mean they lack magic). Everaska and Myth Drannor were execptions. Again, you're working off of a generic template that is meant to aid a DM. I'm talking about the canonic Realms representation. The latter simply does not fit in with any of the DMG tools. Consider, for example, the fact that the Akh'Faern alone completely break the DMG's population breakdown concept by overloading the amount of wizards a community can have. True, you are right here. But also notice that we are talking 2E vs 3.5E I don't see how this matters, considering that much of what we're talking about regarding elven military practices is theoretical. I am arguing that the *current depiction* (which has little to do with my ideas) is plainly unrealistic. To elaborate, I am arguing that the elves have certain demonstrated and stated capabilities that they fail to use for incomprehensible reasons. I agree with the latter, as my example with HM not "nuking" the Army of darkness. And it does matter, if the elves never show their power even when there is immenent power one assumes they simply don't have them. They have as I have said lost alot of nuking abilities concerning. We know that the elves are capabel of great magical (at least in the past) due to it being displayed Going by the list of Mythals, all or most of the major ones. A quick aside, if I may. I think there is a D&D-reinforced misconception that elves predominately hang around in many small communities. Cormanthyr shows that this was not the case when the elves were still in force in Faerun. It makes it rather apparent that most prefer to reside within the central community when possible, enjoying the benefits of doing so. The same seems to be true of Evereska. Actually there were quite a few small scattered communities, so I don't agree that much.I have hard time beliveing that in all the Cormanthyr (supposedly the second biggest enclave of elves) had a population of only 60000 (of which half or so were non-elves). Once gain you try to make Cormanthyr the standard while it's closer to an execption. There are elves spread all over faerun (before the Retreat) and besides of Everaska Cormanthyr the elves lacked any great communties. And even Cormanthyr wasn't great. With a supposed population of 60000...of which a little more than half were elves. There is quite a bit lore that indicates that the elves in particular the wood and wild that live in small communities I think that, where the Realms are concerned, the phenomenon of smaller, isolated elven communities is symptomatic and reflective of the Retreat rather than of actual societal mode. Those communities do tend to exhibited the traits of a less magical society, and likely do rely more on conventional means such as foraging and hunting. Even they, however, would not be hard-pressed for food production. Not when "handfuls of berries," easy game, and easy catch are available. Especially not when their fewer numbers mean less stress on their environment. No to mention experience, elven woodlore should be peerless...almost. And after the Crown Wars at least 2 elven subraces more or less abandoned arcane magic. Magic (warp wood, shape wood) is still likely responsible for many of their dwellings. This is again feasible given their small numbers. It is unrealistic, though, to pin all this work on the fewer mages of this smaller community with the mindset of their having to accomplish it in the short term and with a sense of immediacy. Even these small communities have probably existed for hundreds of years, and have been developed over time. I would say Druids in that case:). But yes I never denied they used physical tools. I stated that magic is a great part of their lives. That much is made abundantly clear by the cited page. I never said you did either. I just thought that the part you wanted me to notice (in particular) was that part There don't need to be that many. We're talking about extremely long-lived people with an eye toward extremely long-lived things. Different strokes for different folks will obviously be the order of the day, but I don't see elven families running to a craftsman for new plates or silverware every few months. Houses being what they are, such needs are almost certainly addressed internally. Well the House structure is mostly among the nobles isn't it ? And also that would mean that the houses are (and it's elves) are very self-sufficient. Which is incidently what RoW is saying... Again, RoW is not Realms specific. It illustrates a D&D-generic outlook that does not necessarily reflect on the Realms. Ed Greenwood's canonic statements show exactly how off RoW is in regards with fitting in the Realms. Actually the last was me, not RoW :D. Though ROW mentions that Druid are part of a community to ensure that the elves give back what they take. I think RoF also mentions some such in the Wood elven entry. With that said I defintely think there are ELVEN farmers. They might not farm out of a need to feed people, but more so as a hobby. But these farmer would likely be better farmers than their human equvalent. Why on earth would they need 30%? You answered your own question--it's an exaggeration. Quite obviously Cormanthyr had enough spellcasters to do all of the above! Both C:EoE and Ed Greenwood provide ample testimony to this fact. The same can be said for Evereska. Comanthyr was an execption, you average elven community surely isn't like Cormanthyr is she ? Those are completely different things, though. RoF does not address many concepts out of consideration for space. Ed Greenwood fills that void, though. RoW and CBE, on the other hand, attempt to fill that void with information that contradicts Realmsian canon--and are thus invalid. Well, I don't agree...but notice that Eds latest notes contradict his own sourcebooks as well. While his notes are official until WOTC says otherwise, in some cases we get fact overrided (in the case of Eilistarrean worshippers). Cinsidering the fact that Eds notes maybe weren't even written up at CK at the time RoW was written, it hard to say that they are contradicting Realms canon pit spite. But then again nobody HAS to incorporate it into ones realms. It's after all a generic thing. A moot point... since elves created Mythals to do away with the need for crafting or casting such effects over and over. It would be if Elven High Mages grew on trees. Most elven communties don't have one of these. Evermeet and everaska (Cormanthyr doesn't exist so) are the only major ones. As i said there are probably only 12 HM in this time age...and these are hestitant to use their powers outside of Evermeet. Which number is that? We agree on the above--roughly 800-900 spellcasters in the military alone. Do you disagree that, among a highly magic-using race there are more civilian spellcasters than ones dedicated to security and military affairs? No...there are likely more civilian ones...but the elves as whole are quite warlike, out of necessity. I don't believe they do. Ed's answers on elven diet and food production pointed at shared resources in terms of those orchards they did plant within their communities and forestlands. Although vague, surface elven houses seem to be extended family units or at least groups of families allied to a central, leading family. Loyalty and obedience to a central power (such as a Coronal) appears to come from a moral, almost religious, imperative or following a somewhat meritocratic approach (he who wields the Crownblade rules Cormanthyr, for example). C:EoE does specifically qualify (pg 63, IIRC) that the majority of trade is internal and that centrally issues coinage is used for trade. Taxes, on the other hand, indicate a level of capitalism that I think is at odds with the often cooperativist elven mindset. Oki, if you say so. It doesn't matter... because the DMG is NOT Realms specific. I have been able, however, to prove to you that--merely for military matters--Myth Drannor has far and away far more mages than the DMG states it should have. That product in and of itself (as well as Ed's testimony) show that they DID have enough mages to accomplish the things I'm arguing for. Just for giggles, beyond the already ridiculous roster of mages we've gone through, let's also see those represented in the listed Houses of Cormanthyr: 51 arcane spellcasters, of whom 21 are lvl 20-29; 11 are lvl 15-19; the rest are predominately lvl 10-14. And that's just going by the House Speaker (lord/lady), Heir, Elder, and Archmage. The book doesn't bother to list their apprentices. We know that it wouldn't just be those listed personages; Elves of Evermeet makes references to Houses such as Nierdre and Raedrimne, which number a handful of survivors and 20 elves, respectively, and they are the exception. By contrast, Houses such as Durothil are mentioned as having "several" High Mages alone. Furthermore, this, again, is only indicative of SOME of the Houses--a minority of the population. It doesn't even address any of the non-noble spellcasters. You are right, but also note, we are talking about 3.5E and 2E.
GothicDan 05-07-07, 01:32 PM	Prince Indirian... Why do you keep bringing up the "This is 3.5 vs. 2E" statement without actually saying what you mean by it?
Philalexandros 05-07-07, 01:57 PM	I never read that number that's why I am wondering. 60000 for the entire realm is very VERY little. I think I will ask some folks over at Candlekeep if then know is something extra was written about this. Feel free. I find the number surprisingly small as well. The FRCS cites Cormanthyr as a whole being home to approx. 80,000 Elves (based on percentage of total population). Personally, I think this is simply another instance where 2E and 3E simply don't match. Cormanthyr is fairly detailed on the number, location, and population of settlements. But surely your average elven community will note be close to this. If we gathered all Red wizards in a city for some grand event (let say they feelt for doing something communal) we would also see impressive magic. ... My point is that average elven community on the mainland likely doesn't blister with magic (this doesn't mean they lack magic). Everaska and Myth Drannor were execptions. Well, here's where we slightly differ, I guess. I feel that the majority of the elven communities, even those without mythals, are highly magical. The difference bing that cities with mythals were nearly invincible and that those communities today without them are very vulnerable. I think the exception to this rule would be the more "provincial" wood elf and sylvan elf-exclusive communities. Where they are concerned, I posit that their size and location make it far easier for them to survive by foraging and hunting as opposed to the means I alluded to earlier. True, you are right here. But also notice that we are talking 2E vs 3.5E I posit that nothing has changed. I posit that the DMG uses statistics and averages that point to a generic world and, more importantly, a generic community with a specifically human flavor. Until someone comes out and trumps this in a 3E product, I'm going to continue going by what Ed and the 2E products say. As of 19 March 2004, this is what he had to say: "For modern-day Cormanthor, I’d give more of the elves on patrol “well-rounded adventurer” status (sprinklings of prestige classes to bolster them), but with about half of a patrol made up of individuals roughly equal to that footman of the past (a Fighter of 1d6+2 levels). ... In the end, match the power level to your PCs; they should ALWAYS think twice about tangling with a Cormanthan patrol." And... "Well, if I was detailing elves in Cormanthor right now, I’d lean towards this: women, children, and commoners dwelling around Lake Sember, with ward-spells, ‘instant mist’ spells, and strong armed perimeter patrols. Elsewhere in the forest, I WOULD have Tangletrees-style bands of adventurer/champion-types of various types and levels of skill, ..." You'll note that the above descriptions not only continue the trend started in C:EoE, but also trump the extant templates of non-elven forces for both generic D&D and many Realmsian forces as well. Elves may be few, but they, like the other elder races, are good at what they do. Actually there were quite a few small scattered communities, so I don't agree that much. But we don't have that much info on them. Almost all come from novels. Most that I have seen (Last Mythal series, etc.) seem to be impressive in their own right. I have hard time beliveing that in all the Cormanthyr (supposedly the second biggest enclave of elves) had a population of only 60000 (of which half or so were non-elves). I hope you get a better answer from Candlekeep. Incidentally, non-elves were a minority within Cormanthyr (making up 20% of the population). Once gain you try to make Cormanthyr the standard while it's closer to an execption. There are elves spread all over faerun (before the Retreat) and besides of Everaska Cormanthyr the elves lacked any great communties. I think this needs Candlekeep elaboration. There are several instances of prominent communities. To be continued. And even Cormanthyr wasn't great. Surely you jest. Per Races of Faerun, Cormanthyr was only "briefly eclipsed by Netheril." It was, in fact, a marvelous place and your opinion here contradicts virtually every description of it. I don't doubt that wood and sylvan elves live in small communities. I already qualified this. I posit that they are both a racial minority within the elves and that their mode of life is not the standard. Races of Faerun aptly describes the settings favored by the Sun Elves, and it is they who are both the majority sub-race and the primary makers of urban centers. Well the House structure is mostly among the nobles isn't it ? And also that would mean that the houses are (and it's elves) are very self-sufficient. Which is incidently what RoW is saying... RoW might have some things that jive with FR, but it has others that don't. I'm not against using RoW--I'm against incorporating ANYTHING it offers that doesn't reconcile with Realms canon. The structure applies to both the nobles and the allied commoners. With that said I defintely think there are ELVEN farmers. They might not farm out of a need to feed people, but more so as a hobby. But these farmer would likely be better farmers than their human equvalent. I think our definition of the word differs. Nothing Ed describes really reconciles with organized farming. If anything, you'd be more apt to state that elves, in general, undertake gardening as a hobby. Comanthyr was an execption, you average elven community surely isn't like Cormanthyr is she ? Not in size, but in proportions, yes. That is, "Isilthorae" would have maybe only 1/60 of the population of Cormanthyr, but the same percentage of wizards, clerics, etc. Why? Because it's largely populated by the same core groups. Well, I don't agree... With what? but notice that Eds latest notes contradict his own sourcebooks as well. Example? While his notes are official until WOTC says otherwise, in some cases we get fact overrided (in the case of Eilistarrean worshippers). Cinsidering the fact that Eds notes maybe weren't even written up at CK at the time RoW was written, it hard to say that they are contradicting Realms canon pit spite. That's why we ask. We're lucky he answers. But then again nobody HAS to incorporate it into ones realms. It's after all a generic thing. No, they don't. Again, a lot of what RoW offers simply does not reconcile with the elves. Take, for example, the contention that most communities are non-specialized. The majority of communities (by virtue of percentages and population numbers) are either Sun Elf communities or mixed communities with predominate Sun Elf populations, though, and Races of Faerun specifically qualifies how driven individual Sun Elves are in their chosen profession. It would be if Elven High Mages grew on trees. Most elven communties don't have one of these. Evermeet and everaska (Cormanthyr doesn't exist so) are the only major ones. As i said there are probably only 12 HM in this time age...and these are hestitant to use their powers outside of Evermeet. I don't dispute the rarity of High Magi, though I do wonder where you got your number from. You are right, but also note, we are talking about 3.5E and 2E. And, once more, generic 3.5 rules are trumped by cited FR canon where FR (and only FR) is concerned. Back in 5 days!
Boda 05-07-07, 02:37 PM	RoF presents the elven high mage prestige class, and adds that less then a dozen know where the knowledges of high magic are. Ergo less then a dozen high mages exist.
Lord Karsus 05-07-07, 02:58 PM	RoF presents the elven high mage prestige class, and adds that less then a dozen know where the knowledges of high magic are. Ergo less then a dozen high mages exist. -That's been proven false time and time again. What's the current number...I believe that it is believed that there are around 200 Elven High Magi out there. My memory might be going, though...
Derren S. 05-07-07, 03:02 PM	-That's been proven false time and time again. What's the current number...I believe that it is believed that there are around 200 Elven High Magi out there. My memory might be going, though... Proven false by what? Is there any newer publication which increases the number of high mages? If not, and you are relying on 2Ed information or worse, unofficial statements then you are out of luck. Official 3.X sources trum 2nd Edition lore and statments from WotC employees.
Prince Indirian 05-07-07, 03:19 PM	Feel free. I find the number surprisingly small as well. The FRCS cites Cormanthyr as a whole being home to approx. 80,000 Elves (based on percentage of total population). Personally, I think this is simply another instance where 2E and 3E simply don't match. Cormanthyr is fairly detailed on the number, location, and population of settlements. Is this the 3.5 FRCS or 2E ? Just wondering Well, here's where we slightly differ, I guess. I feel that the majority of the elven communities, even those without mythals, are highly magical. The difference bing that cities with mythals were nearly invincible and that those communities today without them are very vulnerable. Well an elven realm/commnuity can be magical without a mythal. I think it depends on what you compare with as well. For example how many human communties lit up their streets with continual lights ? I doubt many do that. Yet among the elves and particularly the drow (though they use Faerie Fire) this seems quite common if not the actual standard (possibly barring the wild and wood elves). I mean you average elven realm/commnuity will be virtue of it being elven be highly magical compared to say anything non-eleven (execptions exist such as Halruaa etc). Lack of mythal doesn't necesarily mean that one is less than highly magical, it just means the High Mages haven gotten there yet.;) Personally I think even those cities without Mythals were quite defensible in and themselves. Elves whom they are would likely find other ways to make a city defensible. Shamath lacks a mythal but due to it being a magocray,they used mythal-like solutions. No I honestly don't think the average elven community is like Shamath, but they would find some way around it. I think the exception to this rule would be the more "provincial" wood elf and sylvan elf-exclusive communities. Where they are concerned, I posit that their size and location make it far easier for them to survive by foraging and hunting as opposed to the means I alluded to earlier. Once again, of all elven settlments (on the mainland) just prior to Cormanthyrs fall and after the retreat how many of them were "Cormanthyrs" or "Everaskas" in terms of magical might and potency ? I posit that nothing has changed. I posit that the DMG uses statistics and averages that point to a generic world and, more importantly, a generic community with a specifically human flavor. Until someone comes out and trumps this in a 3E product, I'm going to continue going by what Ed and the 2E products say. As of 19 March 2004, this is what he had to say: "For modern-day Cormanthor, I’d give more of the elves on patrol “well-rounded adventurer” status (sprinklings of prestige classes to bolster them), but with about half of a patrol made up of individuals roughly equal to that footman of the past (a Fighter of 1d6+2 levels). ... In the end, match the power level to your PCs; they should ALWAYS think twice about tangling with a Cormanthan patrol." And... "Well, if I was detailing elves in Cormanthor right now, I’d lean towards this: women, children, and commoners dwelling around Lake Sember, with ward-spells, ‘instant mist’ spells, and strong armed perimeter patrols. Elsewhere in the forest, I WOULD have Tangletrees-style bands of adventurer/champion-types of various types and levels of skill, ..." You'll note that the above descriptions not only continue the trend started in C:EoE, but also trump the extant templates of non-elven forces for both generic D&D and many Realmsian forces as well. Elves may be few, but they, like the other elder races, are good at what they do. Yes sir:P . Jokes aside, no issues there, then. But we don't have that much info on them. Almost all come from novels. Most that I have seen (Last Mythal series, etc.) seem to be impressive in their own right. Tethyr has more than a few settlements so do the Great vale in the East etc...the list goes one. And I am not talking novels here. I hope you get a better answer from Candlekeep. Incidentally, non-elves were a minority within Cormanthyr (making up 20% of the population). Oki, I was just thinking about something I heard about gold elves being afraid of being run out of the city because the "on-People" were having so many babies and were aldready at half the population. I think this needs Candlekeep elaboration. There are several instances of prominent communities. To be continued. Ok Surely you jest. Per Races of Faerun, Cormanthyr was only "briefly eclipsed by Netheril." It was, in fact, a marvelous place and your opinion here contradicts virtually every description of it. I meant GREAT in terms of POPULATION, 60000 people in all of Cormanthyr ! That's terrible little... I don't doubt that wood and sylvan elves live in small communities. I already qualified this. I posit that they are both a racial minority within the elves and that their mode of life is not the standard. Races of Faerun aptly describes the settings favored by the Sun Elves, and it is they who are both the majority sub-race and the primary makers of urban centers. Oki, I had no idea that majority of all elves were "sunnies". RoW might have some things that jive with FR, but it has others that don't. I'm not against using RoW--I'm against incorporating ANYTHING it offers that doesn't reconcile with Realms canon. The structure applies to both the nobles and the allied commoners. if ye say so I think our definition of the word differs. Nothing Ed describes really reconciles with organized farming. If anything, you'd be more apt to state that elves, in general, undertake gardening as a hobby. Maybe Not in size, but in proportions, yes. That is, "Isilthorae" would have maybe only 1/60 of the population of Cormanthyr, but the same percentage of wizards, clerics, etc. Why? Because it's largely populated by the same core groups. Well then Sun elves (for example) in place X have to be exactly the same as the SE in place Y. And that people arenät affected by their environment. For example the Sun Elves of house Durothil, were basically all in the ART, but their stay in MARTIAL Cormanthyr got manhy of them into the Military. Sure many SE aspire to become wizards (or fighters) but there will ALWAYS be execptions. Ala Cormanthyr. Example? The amount of Eilisatree worshipers, in the Drow of the Underdark it was 15 %, now it's 22%, sure Eilistaree might have been "busy"...VERY busy...the good drow aren't rare anymore. Not to mention it faith has increased with 46 % feels as if we should have some explanation. At the same time, now that I think about it, saying that he contradicts his own sourcebook sounds a little weird. Maybe we should see it as an continuation or update. Still 22 % !:eek: :confused: That's why we ask. We're lucky he answers. That's really nice actually, and greatly appreciated No, they don't. Again, a lot of what RoW offers simply does not reconcile with the elves. Take, for example, the contention that most communities are non-specialized. The majority of communities (by virtue of percentages and population numbers) are either Sun Elf communities or mixed communities with predominate Sun Elf populations, though, and Races of Faerun specifically qualifies how driven individual Sun Elves are in their chosen profession. Yeah but Sun Elves are a part of the elven race, you say they are majority (something I have never heard before, but hey). So RoW will speak on average. Also NOTE one thing, Sun elves are suppsed to be quite rare on the mainland (not including Everaska), so saying that most communtioes (one mainland) are either Sun elven or predominate comes of as quite wrong. There are quite a few communities were sun elves aren't even mentioned. Also according to the RoF (under moon elven entry), the "moonies" are the most common subrace on the mainland. I don't dispute the rarity of High Magi, though I do wonder where you got your number from. Accordingly to RoF, Less than a dozen elves even know where the lore of High Magic is kept much less how to actually cast an epic spell If an High Mage doesn't know where the lore is kept who does, off course non-HM might know, but I assume all HM know it at least. Also the fact that even less than a DOZEN know who to cast an epic spell (feat epic spellcasting) tells us enough to draw the conclusion that there are VERY few elves high Mages.... And, once more, generic 3.5 rules are trumped by cited FR canon where FR (and only FR) is concerned. oki Back in 5 days! Sure, take care
Prince Indirian 05-07-07, 03:22 PM	Prince Indirian... Why do you keep bringing up the "This is 3.5 vs. 2E" statement without actually saying what you mean by it? There are some "differences" that make little sensse. I mean that conflicts arise since we went from 2E to 3.5E Meaning that some things just sound absurd by 3.5E standards and vice versa...
GothicDan 05-07-07, 04:40 PM	Proven false by what? Is there any newer publication which increases the number of high mages? If not, and you are relying on 2Ed information or worse, unofficial statements then you are out of luck. Official 3.X sources trum 2nd Edition lore and statments from WotC employees. I don't know where LK is getting his ~200 figure from, but wasn't it in Last Mythal that Amlaruil said there was "no more than 80" High Magi left in the bulk of Elven Realms? Even then, that's quite a few Epic Wizards and Sorcerers about, split primarily between Evermeet and Evereska, most likely with a few in Myth Drannor and Silverymoon. And to meet the EHM PrC requirements, I think you have to be around 23rd-24th level, so we're talking all of them being decently Epic, not just breaking it.
boards 05-07-07, 06:30 PM	I don't know where LK is getting his ~200 figure from, but wasn't it in Last Mythal that Amlaruil said there was "no more than 80" High Magi left in the bulk of Elven Realms? Even then, that's quite a few Epic Wizards and Sorcerers about, split primarily between Evermeet and Evereska, most likely with a few in Myth Drannor and Silverymoon. And to meet the EHM PrC requirements, I think you have to be around 23rd-24th level, so we're talking all of them being decently Epic, not just breaking it. I believe it was 80 on Evermeet according to the Last Mythal Series, not in Faerun total.
Philalexandros 05-07-07, 10:57 PM	Proven false by what? Is there any newer publication which increases the number of high mages? If not, and you are relying on 2Ed information or worse, unofficial statements then you are out of luck. Official 3.X sources trum 2nd Edition lore and statments from WotC employees. Races of Faerun first printing: March 2003 Ed Greenwood's statements on the matter: 3 October 2004: "As my delightfully hooded lady commented, NDAs prevent me from revealing overmuch about Elven High Magic or its practitioners, but I can say that Evermeet holds AT LEAST 26 elven High Mages, and that the mainland holds more than that, widely scattered (and no, I'm not going to say more: that's where the NDAs come in." So, AT LEAST 53 (at least 26 on Evermeet plus at least 27 in the mainland) High Magi exist. I'll leave it up to you fine people to determine how far beyond 53 a capital "at least" would take the High Magi. Not that the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy, where the High Magi took a good deal of punishment, concluded in December of 2002. Their casualties in that series do not affect Ed's stated totals.
msatran 05-07-07, 11:14 PM	As far as I'm concerned, I have to fudge everything anyway, because if I went by the way that elves used tactics in the awful "Reclaim Myth Drannor" trilogy, they'd all be DEAD.
Philalexandros 05-07-07, 11:56 PM	Is this the 3.5 FRCS or 2E ? Just wondering The FRCS, circa 3E, cites a population of over 300,000 inhabitants for Cormanthyr. The percentage of elves in the population (30% or so) would thus put them (IIRC) in the 80,000-or-so bracket. Well an elven realm/commnuity can be magical without a mythal. I think it depends on what you compare with as well. For example how many human communties lit up their streets with continual lights ? I doubt many do that. Yet among the elves and particularly the drow (though they use Faerie Fire) this seems quite common if not the actual standard (possibly barring the wild and wood elves). I mean you average elven realm/commnuity will be virtue of it being elven be highly magical compared to say anything non-eleven (execptions exist such as Halruaa etc). Lack of mythal doesn't necesarily mean that one is less than highly magical, it just means the High Mages haven gotten there yet.;) We don't disagree on this. Personally I think even those cities without Mythals were quite defensible in and themselves. Elves whom they are would likely find other ways to make a city defensible. I don't doubt this. Once again, of all elven settlments (on the mainland) just prior to Cormanthyrs fall and after the retreat how many of them were "Cormanthyrs" or "Everaskas" in terms of magical might and potency ? I'm not sure what this has to do with the paragraph you quoted here... But, again, I believe that, originally, most elven communities were sattelites of Mythal states within which they could seek refuge. Like it or not, Cormanthyr sets a standard for a mythal state. We can likewise assume that Ilefarn, Evereska, Myth Glaurach, etc., also possessed a network of portals and such that connected them to the various communities dependant or associated with them. So, to answer your question? They were quite potent and powerful by virtue of their association with those greater states. On their own, as you yourself stated, they were quite formidable communities. Tethyr has more than a few settlements so do the Great vale in the East etc...the list goes one. And I am not talking novels here. Can you tell me which product you're looking at? Just curious! :) All I have access to right now is the FRCS, and it says little other than that there are over 180,000 elves in Tethyr, and that two tribes survive in the forestlands that make up their homeland. I meant GREAT in terms of POPULATION, 60000 people in all of Cormanthyr ! That's terrible little... But it all depends on how many elves there were at the time. Bear in mind that Evermeet was already a destination for many, if not most, of the elves. Currently, there's 1.6+ million elves on Evermeet. By contrast, there are approximately 1,080,650 elves on the mainland--from Waterdeep to Aglarond. Only six regions (not individual communities) list higher elf populations than Myth Drannor alone did at the time of its height. The only single community to boast a larger population? Waterdeep--which has such a large population of elves due to the fact that it is the primary point of embarkation and arrival for any trips involving Evermeet. Thus, as you can see, Cormanthyr had both a respectable urban population and regional population--insofar as elves are concerned. Elves are simply incredibly outnumbered. Their total numbers nowadays would match up with the population of *maybe* a single, above-average size human nation. Well then Sun elves (for example) in place X have to be exactly the same as the SE in place Y. And that people arenät affected by their environment. For example the Sun Elves of house Durothil, were basically all in the ART, but their stay in MARTIAL Cormanthyr got manhy of them into the Military. Sure many SE aspire to become wizards (or fighters) but there will ALWAYS be execptions. Ala Cormanthyr. Actually, this is a misconception. Cormanthyr, unlike other realms, was founded on "compassion, lore and subtle magic, instead of military might and great battle mages." (pg 40, RoF). If anything, other Sun Elf communities would be more militant. Yeah but Sun Elves are a part of the elven race, you say they are majority (something I have never heard before, but hey). So RoW will speak on average. No, it doesn't. RoW doesn't speak for the Sun Elves at all. It speaks for generic High Elves, generic Gray Elves, etc. Faerunian elves are biologically (they're taller; they have different diets), culturally (they build great cities; they subscribe to a monarchy of Moon Elves), and otherwise (they train along the lines of the "heroic" PHB classes much more than standard elves) different. As such, any of its material has to be taken with a grain of salt. Also NOTE one thing, Sun elves are suppsed to be quite rare on the mainland (not including Everaska), so saying that most communtioes (one mainland) are either Sun elven or predominate comes of as quite wrong. Well, not really. To begin with, Wood Elves and Sylvan Elves are less prevalent (the latter are actually rare) compared to the Sun Elves to begin with. Moon Elves are described as actually either being migratory/nomadic or residing in others' communities. That leaves two groups to build permanent communities: Sun Elves and Wood Elves. We know where the Wood Elves are concentrated--Tethyr and old Earlann in the North. Who do you think is responsible for the all the rest? That doesn't make them less than rare; at 50%, they would barely be 500,000 Sun Elves all over mainland Faerun. At a more likely 30%, they are only 300,000 or so. See last post for clarification on High Magi. :) PS: I found a hotel with free Wi-Fi. Yes!
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 09:20 AM	I don't know where LK is getting his ~200 figure from, but wasn't it in Last Mythal that Amlaruil said there was "no more than 80" High Magi left in the bulk of Elven Realms? -Like I said, my memory might be going...But, even still, that's still more than a dozen or so. Proven false by what? Is there any newer publication which increases the number of high mages? If not, and you are relying on 2Ed information or worse, unofficial statements then you are out of luck. Official 3.X sources trum 2nd Edition lore and statments from WotC employees. -The Last Mythal Trilogy.
Philalexandros 05-08-07, 10:07 AM	Also, see my above citation of Ed. Of course, the answer he gave at Candlekeep came before the Last Mythal Trilogy was completed, so that may very well be the ultimate answer (depending on how solid it was).
Boda 05-08-07, 10:11 AM	Ok, you guys need to clarify this, so are we talking about a information based on a novel? Because if it is so, the by Evermeet:island of elves, high magic is only possible in evermeet and in the proximity of the Tree of Souls.By the same novel, there are very few high mages in evermeet after the whole Kymil nimesin plot(most killed by betrayal by tower of sunrise), less then twelve dragonriders(since they where a dozen before, and some died in the defence), and a weakned army(since they suffered severe losses in same event). So by this novel, evermeet isnt the powerhouse it use to be(more so since the elven crusade). I'm sorry about the tone but, when a state a novel based fact, everybody kicks me around saying that novels arent realistic and dont make sense, but now i'm stating a guide based fact(less them dozen high mages in RoF), and aparently it's not correct!
Philalexandros 05-08-07, 10:41 AM	My numbers were taken straight from Ed Greenwood's posts (via the Hooded One) at Candlekeep. As I posted earlier, he states there are "AT LEAST 26" on Evermeet alone, and that the mainland holds more than that. So you have, at the very least, 53 elves (but an unknown actual total) capable of casting High Magic. Ed's statements, once again, came AFTER Races of Faerun had been circulated. They trump that product--which may or many not have had the benefit of his guidance (he's not in the credits section, at any rate). :(
ShadezofDis 05-08-07, 10:47 AM	The reason I think the Elves should be at the top of the "Elite militaries" is that their military has been working together longer than other militaries have existed. The precision of an Elven cavalry charge (or whatever other military maneuver you might want to consider) should, by all rights, be unmatched in the Realms. The ability for the officers to anticipate what the other officers will be doing should be unrivaled (I can predict what my buddies will do in a lot of circumstances and I've known them for maybe a decade, knowing them for a century would only improve upon this) The reason fighting Elves in the forest is a bad idea is because the Elves can move through the woods and know the woods better. They also, IMO, work better in smaller, more mobile groups, which really NEED the cover a forest provides, otherwise they'd be torn apart by a good cavalry. Further, they're almost always fighting against greater numbers, so it behooves them to both seperate their enemy and to use forest cover. Sorry if I'm repeating anything others are saying, I tried to get through the thread but haven't quite made it yet and I'm too opinionated to wait till I've finished reading it ;)
Derren S. 05-08-07, 11:22 AM	Ed's statements, once again, came AFTER Races of Faerun had been circulated. They trump that product- I disagree. Imo a sourcebook (of the current edition) always trumps Ed Greenwood. He can only fill the holes that the rulebooks leave, but he can't overrule them.
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 12:30 PM	I disagree. Imo a sourcebook (of the current edition) always trumps Ed Greenwood. He can only fill the holes that the rulebooks leave, but he can't overrule them. -All of Ed's..."rulings" are canon. And again, subsequent novels have portrayed more than just a dozen or so High Magi. Sourcebooks do contain errors, don't forget. Need I bring up the infamous chart at the end of Faiths and Pantheons listing all of the monsterous deities?
msatran 05-08-07, 01:18 PM	In general, experience counts for a lot, but even the mightiest armies make colossally stupid errors. Let's take the Battle of Agincourt. This is one of my favorite disasters ever. Knowing that the English were outnumbered 15-1, the French decided to attack in the rain, with their heavier armored, elite units against a bunch of peasants and volunteers fighting for King Henry V and about 2000 Englishmen. It looked like rain. The French should have waited. Their horses slipped in the mud, and once their heavily armored troops hit the ground, they couldn't get back up. They were massacred on the ground where they lay. The English held the field by virtue of leather armor and superior mobility. While this is the exception, and not the rule, you can't apply virtues such as experience and time working together to every military situation, especially with pre-WWI combat. You don't have a strong reliance on the 3C rules of combat, duels of honor for swaths of battlefield occur frequently, and anything that might approximate the tactics of more skilled groups don't come from experienced groups that have been working together for ages. Add Magic, and you have a recipe for TOTAL CHAOS.
Boda 05-08-07, 02:42 PM	It's so nice of mr. Greenwood(Ao) to issue these notes, so that we can all look at the guides as virtually useless products. So i buy a guide, believing that it's a good depiction of the relity of the realms, at least until the next product about that issue, so that statements like these completly trump it. And them they complain about players not buying their products and using illiegal copies.Aha! By the way, are there any more changes added to the elfs that the guides dont mention, like darkvision, spellresistance, silverfire, flight, teleportation,etc?One can never know.
ShadezofDis 05-08-07, 03:03 PM	It's so nice of mr. Greenwood(Ao) to issue these notes Actually, it is quite nice as much of what he says doesn't go against published product but indeed expands upon the product. so that we can all look at the guides as virtually useless products. So i buy a guide, believing that it's a good depiction of the relity of the realms, at least until the next product about that issue, so that statements like these completly trump it. And them they complain about players not buying their products and using illiegal copies.Aha! So a mistake in the number of elven high mages makes a product useless? That's news to me! What other products are useless due to Ed's notes? Since you seem to have studied his replies to questions put forth to him from gamers. By the way, are there any more changes added to the elfs that the guides dont mention, like darkvision, spellresistance, silverfire, flight, teleportation,etc?One can never know. Mountain out of a molehill man. And what changes are you speaking about? All I've seen is the difference between the amount of high mages. If you're talking about elves using magic and trade to sustain their culture then that doesn't go against any guide that I know of in existance. Oh, last, but certainly not least; If you don't like it then you don't have to use it.
Derren S. 05-08-07, 03:31 PM	And what changes are you speaking about? All I've seen is the difference between the amount of high mages. For example that elves only need to eat very little because they can live from water and sunlight (photosynthesis)? Thats also from a Ed quote. I am sure the adventurers among the elves would like to know it that they don't need to carry many rations. And I bet that this is not the only case where Greenwood invents new powers to explain how his realms work even with the logic holes it has.
ShadezofDis 05-08-07, 04:52 PM	For example that elves only need to eat very little because they can live from water and sunlight (photosynthesis)? Thats also from a Ed quote. I am sure the adventurers among the elves would like to know it that they don't need to carry many rations. And I bet that this is not the only case where Greenwood invents new powers to explain how his realms work even with the logic holes it has. Would you care to find that quote, because I don't see it in the thread (the photosynthesis quote). However, Elves are slighter than humans, thus they wouldn't require quite so much food. Further, without having Ed's notes you can't say that he's "inventing new powers" because for all you know it's been in his game since day one. Now, as to the whole "Elves have no problems" comment. . . that's some hogwash. Elves have had problems and threats to them throughout most of FR's history.
Boda 05-08-07, 05:40 PM	Actually, it is quite nice as much of what he says doesn't go against published product but indeed expands upon the product. No, he does. If RoF says dozen and he says several dozen(maybe fifties), then he is contradicting the guide. So a mistake in the number of elven high mages makes a product useless? That's news to me! What other products are useless due to Ed's notes? Since you seem to have studied his replies to questions put forth to him from gamers. That single mistake no, but added with others, yes. Since Elven high mage is a prestige class for epic characters, what he's saying is that there are at least fifties elven epics (unknow), not to mention that are epic arcane elven spellcasters that are not high mages. So the assumption that humans provided with the largest amount of epic arcane spellcasters is incorrect. So drow, have spellresistance,darkvision,that darkness sphere ability and fairie fire, this makes them powerful enough for level adjusment, but suface elfs, that dont need to eat food(something that almost all other races do) dont? So the largest know elven settlements in mainland are evereska, cormanthyr, wealdath, chondalwood. There are around several dozen of high mages in these, but evereska needed help from the shades to stop the phaerimm attack?! Mountain out of a molehill man. And what changes are you speaking about? All I've seen is the difference between the amount of high mages. If you're talking about elves using magic and trade to sustain their culture then that doesn't go against any guide that I know of in existance. I guess that in ToT, elven trade,crafts,defense, and culture went beserk! And yet, elfs did very little to try solving the situation. Oh, last, but certainly not least; If you don't like it then you don't have to use it. Customer pespective them, i buy a guide, assuming that it's content will be fact for at least a while(until the next guide), and someone decides to change that some time later(a year), so now my product didnt hold true for more them that. Why should i buy anything if they keep changing it whenever them feel like it? I know, i'm a heretic for questioning your god(Greenwood) like that, but i'm a non-beliver.
Faraer 05-08-07, 06:00 PM	-All of Ed's..."rulings" are canon.And not because 'it's the rules', or simply because of his authority, but because the people who officially write for the Realms treat it this way -- with exceptions, much as apply to print-published sources (which can't be avoided in a creative project of the Realms' size). In this case, Ed's statement indicates that he's recently been working with other editors and authors discussing elven high mages, as covered by NDA except for the bit he judged fair to leak.I know, i'm a heretic for questioning your god(Greenwood) like that, but i'm a non-beliver.Casting people who disagree with you as irrational (without argument or evidence) is a transparent, low-down rhetorical trick.
Boda 05-08-07, 06:49 PM	I didnt say that he was irrational, just that he belived in it(maybe he has a reason, but didnt stated yet). Since he didnt reply yet, i dont know if he has a reason or not, a just assumed he didnt. Maybe he will prove me right or wrong. Sometimes i doubt we( me and Faerer) use the same alphabet, since there's a tendency to misinterpretation.
ShadezofDis 05-08-07, 08:01 PM	I know, i'm a heretic for questioning your god(Greenwood) like that, but i'm a non-beliver. I am certainly not of the opinion that Ed is a god, he's certainly a creative man and he's created my favorite D&D setting, but that's hardly divinity. I didnt say that he was irrational Since most of the civilized world views the worship of a human being as irrational then yes, you did imply that I am not rational. That single mistake no, but added with others, yes. Since Elven high mage is a prestige class for epic characters, what he's saying is that there are at least fifties elven epics (unknow), not to mention that are epic arcane elven spellcasters that are not high mages. Perhaps he means that some of the "high mages" are not, in fact, of the prestige class, but actually hold the title of "Elven High Mage". Unless you ask you don't really know. He didn't say much in that paragraph and, AFAIK, he almost never talks levels. Personally, I find a 15th level wizard a perfectly acceptable "High Mage". I guess that in ToT, elven trade,crafts,defense, and culture went beserk! And yet, elfs did very little to try solving the situation. And where did you get this information? What is your source? In other words, I've got no clue what your trying to say. No, he does. If RoF says dozen and he says several dozen(maybe fifties), then he is contradicting the guide. One instance of contradiction is not a good way to build a case, if you'd like to go through his replies to people's questions and find all these massive discrepancies then feel free, but please, stop arguing from a point of ignorance, if you want to make a case then go ahead and make one. Customer pespective them, i buy a guide, assuming that it's content will be fact for at least a while(until the next guide), and someone decides to change that some time later(a year), so now my product didnt hold true for more them that. Why should i buy anything if they keep changing it whenever them feel like it? Ok, I'm not really sure if I'm getting what you are saying exactly but I think I'm understanding you and I have a very simple sollution. Go with what's in your book, if that's the way you want to run it then go for it. As for an annoyance that what's in your book isn't what the general community here holds as true then. . .well, that's too bad. You can post about your version of the Realms when you want feedback, I certainly have to set the stage anytime I want some advice as I don't run a "cannon" Realms game (OMG! I do things differently than Ed would!!!! It's SHOCKING!) but I value the opinions of many on these boards and most posters have no problem saying "Ok, well you have Sembia absorbing a weakened Cormyr in your game, well, if Sembia did do that then I think X, Y and Z are likely" Anyhow, this is a fantasy game, thus it isn't unbelievable that Elves would gain sustinance from the sun, or from the ground, or from hugging trees or whatever. I certainly won't run things that way (though I may see about having Wild Elves be somewhat sustained by their woodland homes but that's just an idea that popped into my head just now so I don't know if I'll do anything with it) Last, my big problem with Elves (and to a lesser extent Dwarves) is their lifespan, I just cannot concieve being alive for centuries and thus I have a VERY difficult time running elves. Point in fact, I am considering moving the central point of my current campaign so that it's based in a human controlled area and when I really feel ready to try and portray a "long lived" race I'll go back.
ShadezofDis 05-08-07, 08:35 PM	Since he didnt reply yet, i dont know if he has a reason or not, a just assumed he didnt. Oh, and rest assured that I always have a reason, even if that reason is "Because I like it better that way." In which case, I usually state that up front.
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 11:53 PM	And not because 'it's the rules', or simply because of his authority, but because the people who officially write for the Realms treat it this way -- with exceptions, much as apply to print-published sources (which can't be avoided in a creative project of the Realms' size). -It's in his WotC contract, isn't it? Customer pespective them, i buy a guide, assuming that it's content will be fact for at least a while(until the next guide), and someone decides to change that some time later(a year), so now my product didnt hold true for more them that. Why should i buy anything if they keep changing it whenever them feel like it? I know, i'm a heretic for questioning your god(Greenwood) like that, but i'm a non-beliver. -Again, I'll cite the F&P Monsterous Deities debacle.
Faraer 05-09-07, 12:14 AM	-It's in his WotC contract, isn't it?Yes, but in terms of 'official canon' I think the practical situation is more relevant than the theoretical one. If Wizards was overwriting Ed's online lore at every turn, in which case he obviously wouldn't be sueing them, there would be a conflict between 'official lore' and Ed's, though many would still regard the latter as more authoritative. As it is, there's no such ambiguity. Similarly with Realms magazine articles. Wizards could decide to ignore them, but in practice they rarely do, so that makes them canonical in effect.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 12:52 AM	Imagine, that. Biological functions amongst creatures in Faerun not seeming completely 'logical' when compared to those of our real world. That's almost as weird as being able to go invisible and cast fireballs and call on gods for holy storms and healing... If worshipping a designer means giving the most respect to those who I think have the most knowledge and experience in the setting, then I worship Ed Greenwood. And Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. And Gary Gygax. And Cook. Heck, even just perusing the Eberron boards, it seems like Keith Baker has a healthy 'cult following' himself, who feel (for whatever reason) that his words are more reputable than what's sometimes printed by others. You have to ask yourself, what's the point in investing all of that money in a world if the world you're paying for is a mess. Too many cooks in the kitchen, and all. Boda: Customer pespective them, i buy a guide, assuming that it's content will be fact for at least a while(until the next guide), and someone decides to change that some time later(a year), so now my product didnt hold true for more them that. Why should i buy anything if they keep changing it whenever them feel like it? Are you referring to Races of the Wild, still? Why would you be that guide and anticipate you'd be able to apply it to Faerun? It was made, roughly, with 'Greyhawk light' (core) in mind, which means that the descriptions on Elves contained therein refer to those elves of the world of Greyhawk. The Halruaans are little like the Ffolk, and they're just half a continent away. Why would you expect different elven subraces of two different worlds altogether to be interchangeable?
Derren S. 05-09-07, 01:45 AM	Would you care to find that quote, because I don't see it in the thread (the photosynthesis quote). However, Elves are slighter than humans, thus they wouldn't require quite so much food. Further, without having Ed's notes you can't say that he's "inventing new powers" because for all you know it's been in his game since day one. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.as...4&whichpage=42 And for me Ed is only a secondary source. If the books say its different or does not mention it and it is something which would have been mentioned because its useful for adventurers then Ed is wrong and inventing things. Its that simple. He sold his world and now the published books are the primary source for realms lore and not him.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 02:01 AM	I don't think taking up an opinion on something that is factually incorrect (regarding Ed's canonity; there's no 'as far as you're concerned' for canon, it's what WotC says, and WotC says that Ed's words are canon) is going to make the Realms any more logical to you.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 08:38 AM	That's almost as weird as being able to go invisible and cast fireballs and call on gods for holy storms and healing... -You mean, you can't do that? http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.as...4&whichpage=42 -Just so you know, that link didn't work. Not trying to be an idiot- I actually did want to see what Ed said. I figured you'd want to know...
Stigger 05-09-07, 09:18 AM	That's what superior invisibility is for... I've been doing that for a while now... :blink:
Boda 05-09-07, 09:49 AM	I am certainly not of the opinion that Ed is a god, he's certainly a creative man and he's created my favorite D&D setting, but that's hardly divinity. Since most of the civilized world views the worship of a human being as irrational then yes, you did imply that I am not rational. Perhaps he means that some of the "high mages" are not, in fact, of the prestige class, but actually hold the title of "Elven High Mage". Unless you ask you don't really know. He didn't say much in that paragraph and, AFAIK, he almost never talks levels. Personally, I find a 15th level wizard a perfectly acceptable "High Mage". And where did you get this information? What is your source? In other words, I've got no clue what your trying to say. One instance of contradiction is not a good way to build a case, if you'd like to go through his replies to people's questions and find all these massive discrepancies then feel free, but please, stop arguing from a point of ignorance, if you want to make a case then go ahead and make one. Ok, I'm not really sure if I'm getting what you are saying exactly but I think I'm understanding you and I have a very simple sollution. Go with what's in your book, if that's the way you want to run it then go for it. As for an annoyance that what's in your book isn't what the general community here holds as true then. . .well, that's too bad. You can post about your version of the Realms when you want feedback, I certainly have to set the stage anytime I want some advice as I don't run a "cannon" Realms game (OMG! I do things differently than Ed would!!!! It's SHOCKING!) but I value the opinions of many on these boards and most posters have no problem saying "Ok, well you have Sembia absorbing a weakened Cormyr in your game, well, if Sembia did do that then I think X, Y and Z are likely" Anyhow, this is a fantasy game, thus it isn't unbelievable that Elves would gain sustinance from the sun, or from the ground, or from hugging trees or whatever. I certainly won't run things that way (though I may see about having Wild Elves be somewhat sustained by their woodland homes but that's just an idea that popped into my head just now so I don't know if I'll do anything with it) Last, my big problem with Elves (and to a lesser extent Dwarves) is their lifespan, I just cannot concieve being alive for centuries and thus I have a VERY difficult time running elves. Point in fact, I am considering moving the central point of my current campaign so that it's based in a human controlled area and when I really feel ready to try and portray a "long lived" race I'll go back. If everything someone says is a rule or standart lore in a world(real or fictional), isnt this someone in the possession of a divine trait? If you worship him for is part in the real world,yes, but if you grant him such a relevance in game, isnt that a form of worship? Maybe he meant that, but again that goes against all (so far) know lore.If these individuals are high mages only in title and not in class, them they shouldnt be able to cast elven high magic(crafting mythals, and those uber powerful displays of magic), and are in fact, arcane spellcasters like any others, and so he is inducing players in a mistake. 15th level maybe acceptable to you, sure, it's your game, so your choice. But in terms of game balance and general rules that's not how it works. High mages are very powerful spellcasters( and quite unique), so if there are a bunch of epic human spellcasters around 30th, this makes high mages not so impressive. One instance! Since i posted about this, several have mentioned other products with mistakes like FaP, RoW, FRCS. If some mistakes cant be prevented, other like posting new and previously unknown traits that arent mentioned anywhere only weaken the products and the creative line. So tomorrow, another game designer gets bored, and posts that gnomes can and always could craft gunpowder(substance without magical properties). Suddently, gnomes present a massive change in warfare on Faerun, and yet no of this makes sense with past events. Yes, one can always go different from the books. In these message boards, i notice that Salvatore isnt a favorite(everybody complain that he doesnt follow the rules so many disreguard everything that happens on his novels), but that is no excuse for lack of control in product publishing. If you go different in this, you can go different in x,y,z,etc. Suddenly other than the starting manual to grant the original setting and idea, you dont really need anything else,do you. So why buy anymore products? I'm not defending that anyone should play following the books by the letter, but shouldnt WotC try to make their products as consistent as it can be? With a consistent setting and guides, players can then choose wich to follow and dont. That's the whole point, nobody sees elves living out of sun and water. This just poop in! I find it a strech that they have their economy based on magic, but sustained by sun and water?! That's not a strech, that a mile! If you would tell me that this previously unknow race lived from sun and water, ok. But this are elfs, one of the mainstay races in the fantasy genre. One could argue next that dwarf can sustain themselves of rocks. So why would they trade crafted weapons away? What would they really need from others? As for my ToT coment, if elven economy is so dependent on magic as other claim, them they should have been the most interrested in resolving tht whole event, so that the weave could return to normal functioning. Other races living quality wasnt so affected, still, humans took the task of trying to solve it. I didnt see any elf doing anything. Or maybe elven economy isnt so magic based as some stated, and so, their werent so greatly affected.
Alediran 05-09-07, 10:18 AM	Maybe he meant that, but again that goes against all (so far) know lore.If these individuals are high mages only in title and not in class, them they shouldnt be able to cast elven high magic(crafting mythals, and those uber powerful displays of magic), and are in fact, arcane spellcasters like any others, and so he is inducing players in a mistake. 15th level maybe acceptable to you, sure, it's your game, so your choice. But in terms of game balance and general rules that's not how it works. High mages are very powerful spellcasters( and quite unique), so if there are a bunch of epic human spellcasters around 30th, this makes high mages not so impressive. High Magic is a unique form of Epic Magic in the way that can be taught from master to student. Otherwise, Epic Spells must be developed from scratch, and no matter how many people can cast Hellball in the world, if you want to cast it and don't know the spell, you must research it. That is the reason that EHM can exist in great quantities. And that's not counting Selu'kiiras, wich can taught an elf how to cast High Spells in mere instants. One instance! Since i posted about this, several have mentioned other products with mistakes like FaP, RoW, FRCS. If some mistakes cant be prevented, other like posting new and previously unknown traits that arent mentioned anywhere only weaken the products and the creative line. So tomorrow, another game designer gets bored, and posts that gnomes can and always could craft gunpowder(substance without magical properties). Suddently, gnomes present a massive change in warfare on Faerun, and yet no of this makes sense with past events. One thing is to add a small change that explains something that was confusing without it, another thing is to add the existance of gunpowder when it was stated that it doesn't work on the Realms. Yes, one can always go different from the books. In these message boards, i notice that Salvatore isnt a favorite(everybody complain that he doesnt follow the rules so many disreguard everything that happens on his novels), but that is no excuse for lack of control in product publishing. If you go different in this, you can go different in x,y,z,etc. Suddenly other than the starting manual to grant the original setting and idea, you dont really need anything else,do you. So why buy anymore products? I'm not defending that anyone should play following the books by the letter, but shouldnt WotC try to make their products as consistent as it can be? With a consistent setting and guides, players can then choose wich to follow and dont. Errare humanum est. That's the whole point, nobody sees elves living out of sun and water. This just poop in! I find it a strech that they have their economy based on magic, but sustained by sun and water?! That's not a strech, that a mile! If you would tell me that this previously unknow race lived from sun and water, ok. But this are elfs, one of the mainstay races in the fantasy genre. One could argue next that dwarf can sustain themselves of rocks. So why would they trade crafted weapons away? What would they really need from others? When a race has enough spellcasters (both arcane and divine, wich the Sun Elves have in great quantities) spells like Create Food and Water become common things, not counting Rings and Spoons of Sustenance wich allow the owner to live without produced food, the ring even eliminates the need to breathe and drink water. As for my ToT coment, if elven economy is so dependent on magic as other claim, them they should have been the most interrested in resolving tht whole event, so that the weave could return to normal functioning. Other races living quality wasnt so affected, still, humans took the task of trying to solve it. I didnt see any elf doing anything. Or maybe elven economy isnt so magic based as some stated, and so, their werent so greatly affected. The ToT saga was badly written within the context of the realms, period. There wasn't a single demi-human in the whole serie, no halflings, gnomes, dwarves, elves or even half-elves or half-orcs, therefore you can't make that asumption. If I was the writter of that saga, I would had made the main party a mix of races.
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 10:39 AM	If everything someone says is a rule or standart lore in a world(real or fictional), isnt this someone in the possession of a divine trait? Nope. Having control over a fictional world is nothing near divinity. If you worship him for is part in the real world,yes, but if you grant him such a relevance in game, isnt that a form of worship? Nope. Point in fact, I do disagree with some of what Ed has said and don't play using those comments as cannon. Point in fact, I don't use the epic rules at all. In the entirety of my FR there is not a single epic character, there are 20+ level characters but they're more rare than the epics that are printed for the Realms. Maybe he meant that, but again that goes against all (so far) know lore.If these individuals are high mages only in title and not in class, them they shouldnt be able to cast elven high magic(crafting mythals, and those uber powerful displays of magic), and are in fact, arcane spellcasters like any others, and so he is inducing players in a mistake. I haven't read enough on the rules for Elven High Magic so I can't say if you are correct or not. Regardless, my point in saying that is that his comments are open for interpretation. Someone with a more robust knowledge of Elven High Magic would be able to say if an Elven High Magic ritual must only include Elven High Mages. 15th level maybe acceptable to you, sure, it's your game, so your choice. But in terms of game balance and general rules that's not how it works. High mages are very powerful spellcasters( and quite unique), so if there are a bunch of epic human spellcasters around 30th, this makes high mages not so impressive. Game balance is. .. a balance, if the Archmage type level of power is around 15th (rather than 20-30) then. . . that's the "Archmage power level". It might require you to rework stat block on the NPCs that you want to use in your game but it doesn't unbalance the game. As for general rules, I've not read the rule that states one must cast Elven High Magic in order to be considered an Elven High Mage (in title, not in PrC), but again, I'm not solid on Elven lore, it could be a requirement that you must be able to use Elven High Magic in order to be an Elven High Mage (in title, not in PrC) One instance! Since i posted about this, several have mentioned other products with mistakes like FaP, RoW, FRCS. If some mistakes cant be prevented, other like posting new and previously unknown traits that arent mentioned anywhere only weaken the products and the creative line. So tomorrow, another game designer gets bored, and posts that gnomes can and always could craft gunpowder(substance without magical properties). Suddently, gnomes present a massive change in warfare on Faerun, and yet no of this makes sense with past events. Welcome to the world of D&D. There are changes to game mechanics that go against lore and we just get to live with that. Mistakes are made and we just have to live with that. In a world the size and breadth of FR there are going to be contradictions made and things that just don't make sense. Do I think a better job could be done? I'm not sure, I'd have to know A LOT more about the process in order to give an educated opinion. However, so far the only example I really have seen about "changes from what the books say" are; The number of Elven High Mages, and since Ed didn't list levels and I don't know about Elven High Magic then I can't really make a judgement on what he may have meant when he said "Elven High Mages" The "gain sustenance from sunlight" comment that I still haven't been able to find, unfortunately Derren's link didn't work and I haven't been able to find anything on Candlekeep yet, nor in the Ed's replies files that I've downloaded (but haven't fully read) Yes, one can always go different from the books. In these message boards, i notice that Salvatore isnt a favorite(everybody complain that he doesnt follow the rules so many disreguard everything that happens on his novels), but that is no excuse for lack of control in product publishing. If you go different in this, you can go different in x,y,z,etc. Suddenly other than the starting manual to grant the original setting and idea, you dont really need anything else,do you. So why buy anymore products? Because it makes life easier. I don't NEED anything other than a Player's Handbook and maybe the DMG, the rest I could make up if I had the time and energy. Since I do not, I buy different products to help build the setting. There are going to be inconsistancies (though one of my best inspirations for plots is trying to find a way to make inconsistancies make sense). I'm not defending that anyone should play following the books by the letter, but shouldnt WotC try to make their products as consistent as it can be? With a consistent setting and guides, players can then choose wich to follow and dont. Yep, they do try and make a consistent setting. Unfortunately that is one of the most difficult aspects of creating a gaming world. That's the whole point, nobody sees elves living out of sun and water. This just poop in! Until I read the quote I can't say much about this. I find it a strech that they have their economy based on magic, but sustained by sun and water?! That's not a strech, that a mile! If you would tell me that this previously unknow race lived from sun and water, ok. But this are elfs, one of the mainstay races in the fantasy genre. One could argue next that dwarf can sustain themselves of rocks. So why would they trade crafted weapons away? What would they really need from others? There is no economic model for any D&D setting in existance, AFAIK. I would like nothing better than to have an economic model for FR but unfortunately it wouldn't be a big seller and in fact would probably be one of the more difficult products to put together. I don't find it likely that the elven economy is based off of magic, I find it likely that the elven economy is based off of the forest resources they have at their disposal. Wood work, hunting, fruit production, crafting fabrics, etc etc As for my ToT coment, if elven economy is so dependent on magic as other claim, them they should have been the most interrested in resolving tht whole event, so that the weave could return to normal functioning. Other races living quality wasnt so affected, still, humans took the task of trying to solve it. I didnt see any elf doing anything. Or maybe elven economy isnt so magic based as some stated, and so, their werent so greatly affected. Ok, I do understand the ToT comment then. Further, the ToT is considered, by some, to be one of the greatest debacle in FR and I'm firmly in that camp. Point in fact, I HATE RSEs with a passion, in my game, other than saying "well, yeah, the pantheon is the 3.X pantheon so I guess the ToT did happen", I completely ignore the RSEs. That means no "Rage of the Dragons" that means no Shade (though if I can think of a decent way to introduce them and my campaign gets anywhere near where they have influence then I may just include them), that means no "super attack on Evermeet" Well, the list goes on and on. Point being, sometimes we have to make changes, ocationally a lot of them, in order to run the game we want to.
Derren S. 05-09-07, 11:12 AM	-Just so you know, that link didn't work. Not trying to be an idiot- I actually did want to see what Ed said. I figured you'd want to know... Next try: http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp%3FTOPIC_ID%3D3684%26whichpage% 3D42
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 11:56 AM	Next try: http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp%3FTOPIC_ID%3D3684%26whichpage% 3D42 Page 42 of that thread has the particular answer. And that's not game breaking, I've long thought that elven metabolism is much slower than humans, thus elves require less food. The sunlight doesn't sustain them, it aids them in their digestion, allowing them to use most of the energy from something they've eaten (superior metabolic functioning so to speak). With the aid of a Mythal, one of the most powerful enchantments known to the Realms, it can allow elves to eat even less. Now, the only REAL game play change these comments might make is that an Elf may not need as much in the way of rations as a human. Halflings won't either. Half-Orcs are likely to need more and I'd say that Dwarves would need more pound for pound, but it's tough to say if that'd mean more when considering person to person. In other words, it adds to the flavor and I don't see it contradicting most of what I've read (there may be a thing or two that I don't recall off the top of my head)
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 11:57 AM	Next try: http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp%3FTOPIC_ID%3D3684%26whichpage% 3D42 -This time, it did work. Note, though, that it doesn't really say that Elves "photosynthesize". Ed does clearly state that Elves need to eat. -By the way, thank you for that link. I'll utilize it in Elves of Faerûn! :)
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 12:02 PM	-By the way, thank you for that link. I'll utilize it in Elves of Faerûn! :) You know, I still haven't read what you guys have put together. . . I'm terrible :hides: Though I do fully intend to write up a piece about Gildenglade once I see the format you guys are using (and I verify that it'd be useful ;))
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 12:04 PM	You know, I still haven't read what you guys have put together. . . I'm terrible :hides: -Why I oughtta! :P
Alediran 05-09-07, 12:34 PM	-Why I oughtta! :P He needs punishment. :D
Boda 05-09-07, 01:20 PM	High Magic is a unique form of Epic Magic in the way that can be taught from master to student. Otherwise, Epic Spells must be developed from scratch, and no matter how many people can cast Hellball in the world, if you want to cast it and don't know the spell, you must research it. That is the reason that EHM can exist in great quantities. And that's not counting Selu'kiiras, wich can taught an elf how to cast High Spells in mere instants. One thing is to add a small change that explains something that was confusing without it, another thing is to add the existance of gunpowder when it was stated that it doesn't work on the Realms. Errare humanum est. When a race has enough spellcasters (both arcane and divine, wich the Sun Elves have in great quantities) spells like Create Food and Water become common things, not counting Rings and Spoons of Sustenance wich allow the owner to live without produced food, the ring even eliminates the need to breathe and drink water. The ToT saga was badly written within the context of the realms, period. There wasn't a single demi-human in the whole serie, no halflings, gnomes, dwarves, elves or even half-elves or half-orcs, therefore you can't make that asumption. If I was the writter of that saga, I would had made the main party a mix of races. So what's the point of having elven high mage prestige class? Fine, that's just a example, but if you think it's unreasonable, ok, dwarf can feed from rock. Indeed, interresting is that while Greenwood has time to develop this kind of info on elven matters, doesnt seem to have time to reformulate the hit point system, that has many flaws. He mentioned the race as a whole ,not individuals that have said items. Note that Netherill had many spellcasters, and yet, most of it economy wasnt magic based(guess the archmages fealt that they had better thing to do with their time, like researching magic and crafting items) So if ToT was a bad idea, maybe it's possible that they're other bad ideas around( maybe even bad Greenwood ideas).
Boda 05-09-07, 01:39 PM	Nope. Having control over a fictional world is nothing near divinity. Nope. Point in fact, I do disagree with some of what Ed has said and don't play using those comments as cannon. Point in fact, I don't use the epic rules at all. In the entirety of my FR there is not a single epic character, there are 20+ level characters but they're more rare than the epics that are printed for the Realms. I haven't read enough on the rules for Elven High Magic so I can't say if you are correct or not. Regardless, my point in saying that is that his comments are open for interpretation. Someone with a more robust knowledge of Elven High Magic would be able to say if an Elven High Magic ritual must only include Elven High Mages. Game balance is. .. a balance, if the Archmage type level of power is around 15th (rather than 20-30) then. . . that's the "Archmage power level". It might require you to rework stat block on the NPCs that you want to use in your game but it doesn't unbalance the game. As for general rules, I've not read the rule that states one must cast Elven High Magic in order to be considered an Elven High Mage (in title, not in PrC), but again, I'm not solid on Elven lore, it could be a requirement that you must be able to use Elven High Magic in order to be an Elven High Mage (in title, not in PrC) Welcome to the world of D&D. There are changes to game mechanics that go against lore and we just get to live with that. Mistakes are made and we just have to live with that. In a world the size and breadth of FR there are going to be contradictions made and things that just don't make sense. Do I think a better job could be done? I'm not sure, I'd have to know A LOT more about the process in order to give an educated opinion. However, so far the only example I really have seen about "changes from what the books say" are; The number of Elven High Mages, and since Ed didn't list levels and I don't know about Elven High Magic then I can't really make a judgement on what he may have meant when he said "Elven High Mages" The "gain sustenance from sunlight" comment that I still haven't been able to find, unfortunately Derren's link didn't work and I haven't been able to find anything on Candlekeep yet, nor in the Ed's replies files that I've downloaded (but haven't fully read) Because it makes life easier. I don't NEED anything other than a Player's Handbook and maybe the DMG, the rest I could make up if I had the time and energy. Since I do not, I buy different products to help build the setting. There are going to be inconsistancies (though one of my best inspirations for plots is trying to find a way to make inconsistancies make sense). Yep, they do try and make a consistent setting. Unfortunately that is one of the most difficult aspects of creating a gaming world. Until I read the quote I can't say much about this. There is no economic model for any D&D setting in existance, AFAIK. I would like nothing better than to have an economic model for FR but unfortunately it wouldn't be a big seller and in fact would probably be one of the more difficult products to put together. I don't find it likely that the elven economy is based off of magic, I find it likely that the elven economy is based off of the forest resources they have at their disposal. Wood work, hunting, fruit production, crafting fabrics, etc etc Ok, I do understand the ToT comment then. Further, the ToT is considered, by some, to be one of the greatest debacle in FR and I'm firmly in that camp. Point in fact, I HATE RSEs with a passion, in my game, other than saying "well, yeah, the pantheon is the 3.X pantheon so I guess the ToT did happen", I completely ignore the RSEs. That means no "Rage of the Dragons" that means no Shade (though if I can think of a decent way to introduce them and my campaign gets anywhere near where they have influence then I may just include them), that means no "super attack on Evermeet" Well, the list goes on and on. Point being, sometimes we have to make changes, ocationally a lot of them, in order to run the game we want to. People sometimes say that greenwood is Elsminster. Considering is ''posts are canon'' ability, he certanaly looks more like Ao. I think i like your version better. No, aparently non high mages can take part in high magic ritual, but high mages most be included. Them you agree that if someone isnt a archmage, it shouldnt have any high arcana? Maybe they could do a better job or not, the point is that time goes by, and no signs of trying to do are apparent. There are some rule problem in the D&D since the begining but they dont seam to notice or care. But make a update from 3 to 3.5, without making any significative changes or adressing these problems seams a urgent task. Yes, there will be inconsistencies, but when these come from posts that are canon, doesnt that defrauds the people that bough the other books expecting they would be canon at lest until the next guide about that theme? So i buy a guide that says this, but next week, a post says that it's not exactly this, it's more like that, but i had to pay for this outdated info. So i'm expected to buy another guide?! Why? I'll just read posts and get pdf's. I personally agree with your pespective on elven economy. Please explain it to Philaxandros.
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 02:04 PM	So what's the point of having elven high mage prestige class? Because people like prestige classes, that's why there's several dozen (if not several hundred) Prestige class is a game mechanic, which is to say that it isn't something that people in the Realms pay attention to. As an example; Many of the Purple Dragons are not of the Purple Dragon prestige class, they are fighters, warriors, rogues, scouts, etc Fine, that's just a example, but if you think it's unreasonable, ok, dwarf can feed from rock. You are taking the "Elven metabolism is effected by sunlight" WAY to far. However, in Ed's view, Dwarven metabolism does seem to be intended to be able to, sort of, store food much like a snake. IE. A Dwarf can over eat and sustain themselves for a goodly amount of time on that food (goodly amount of time seems to mean several days) So yes, Demihuman metabolism is inherently different than a human's, source books have not covered this because it does not go "boom" and things don't sell as well if they don't go "boom" Indeed, interresting is that while Greenwood has time to develop this kind of info on elven matters, doesnt seem to have time to reformulate the hit point system, that has many flaws. AFAIK Ed only works on lore, not on game mechanics, thus it is not part of his purview. However, I would not be surprised if, in his home games, he uses a different mechanic. He mentioned the race as a whole ,not individuals that have said items. Note that Netherill had many spellcasters, and yet, most of it economy wasnt magic based(guess the archmages fealt that they had better thing to do with their time, like researching magic and crafting items) I've not seen any canon source, from a source book, a novel, or Ed's replies, that has stated the Elven economy is magic based. If this is a claim of another poster then it's just speculation, if you have an actual source then please present it. So if ToT was a bad idea, maybe it's possible that they're other bad ideas around( maybe even bad Greenwood ideas). First off, the ToT wasn't Ed's idea AFAIK. Second, there is a myriad of bad ideas around, in fact, everyone has bad ideas from time to time, however, defining what is different in FR elven physiology doesn't seem to me to be a particularly bad idea.
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 02:24 PM	People sometimes say that greenwood is Elsminster. Considering is ''posts are canon'' ability, he certanaly looks more like Ao. He made up the frickin setting. He's an ubergeek (which, in my mind is a high compliment, not an insult) who has developed a living, breathing world in which to play D&D that then got purchased by TSR. If he could put forth the entirety of the Realms, as he has developed it, I'm sure he would. As is he does more than anyone really has any right to ask. I think i like your version better. Me too. Since I have yet to be able to really wrap my head around how magic changes the foundation of an economy I have chosen to run a relatively low magic campaign. The issue that I will eventually run into is when the PCs are pretty powerful they will likely outstripe the other mages of the world, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. No, aparently non high mages can take part in high magic ritual, but high mages most be included. So, in fact, there is no proof that every Elven Mage that is called a High Mage can actually run a High Magic Ritual. It could, in fact, be an honorary title given to Elves who are very capable. I'm not saying that this is the case, I'm just saying that you may be misinterpreting what's been said. Them you agree that if someone isnt a archmage, it shouldnt have any high arcana? Are you speaking about the inherent abilities of the Archmage PrC? If so then I'd say that I don't agree with that. Point in fact, as a DM I take a lot of liberties with the rules, if I want a nonArchmage to have high arcana then I'll go ahead and do that, usually I create a back story that makes sense to me as to why that character has "special abilities" Maybe they could do a better job or not, the point is that time goes by, and no signs of trying to do are apparent. There are some rule problem in the D&D since the begining but they dont seam to notice or care. But make a update from 3 to 3.5, without making any significative changes or adressing these problems seams a urgent task. I like a lot of the "flaws" as they make things much simpler. If there was an "accurate, real to life" combat system then I would likely disregard it as it would take WAY to long to run a combat. Yes, there will be inconsistencies, but when these come from posts that are canon, doesnt that defrauds the people that bough the other books expecting they would be canon at lest until the next guide about that theme? So i buy a guide that says this, but next week, a post says that it's not exactly this, it's more like that, but i had to pay for this outdated info. So i'm expected to buy another guide?! Why? I'll just read posts and get pdf's. What has been contradicted? The amount of food an elf needs to sustain themselves? Because I've NEVER seen a rule for that, the best I've seen is "Characters need to eat and drink and this is the cost for a days worth" So where are all these glaring contradictions? I personally agree with your pespective on elven economy. Please explain it to Philaxandros. Actually, I don't really think I have to, I'm pretty sure that Philaxandros' view is that the elven economy is supported by magic, not based on magic. And I fully agree that EVERYONE who has magic supports their economies with said magic in one way or another.
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 02:25 PM	He needs punishment. :D Thank you, sir, may I have another!
ShadezofDis 05-09-07, 02:32 PM	People sometimes say that greenwood is Elsminster. What people sometimes say and what the truth is are often different. Go to the source and you'll get much better information.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:35 PM	Phil has stated, multiple times, that magic is fully integrated into Elven society, and thus, economics. That's no different than me saying our own economy is largely based around the usage of electricity. While some places use it more or less, we all utilize it to an extent, and without it, our economy would have developed vastly differently than it has thus far. Boda seems to be taking Phil's statement to a strange fantasy land of hyperbole that exists within his head. As to the subject of Elven High Magic.... In the Elves of Evermeet supplement, Elven High Mage was a kit for 15th+ level Elves that allowed them to surpass their normal level restrictions. In Cormanthyr, it became something only accessable to 17th+ (I think) level wizards who were of a certain age (I think 350 years is when training started), and education took decades under existing high magi, and much patience and singular ability scores (requiring Wisdom and Intelligence far beyond the mortal max at higher levels, and this was before one could Wish for more ability points or the like). In general, this latter view seems to have been developed to a greater extent in Elven supplements and culture, so we can consider this the basis. So, the term 'Elven High Mage' has very stringent requirements, both in and out of game. I cannot imagine that one would refer to someone as an Elven High Mage without him actually being one. High level elven arcane casters in general would still be archmages in game - only a select few can become Elven High Magi, both in and out of character.
Stigger 05-09-07, 06:39 PM	That hyperbole thought had entered my mind as well there Dan... good analogy by the way.
Boda 05-09-07, 07:12 PM	He made up the frickin setting. He's an ubergeek (which, in my mind is a high compliment, not an insult) who has developed a living, breathing world in which to play D&D that then got purchased by TSR. If he could put forth the entirety of the Realms, as he has developed it, I'm sure he would. As is he does more than anyone really has any right to ask. Me too. Since I have yet to be able to really wrap my head around how magic changes the foundation of an economy I have chosen to run a relatively low magic campaign. The issue that I will eventually run into is when the PCs are pretty powerful they will likely outstripe the other mages of the world, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. So, in fact, there is no proof that every Elven Mage that is called a High Mage can actually run a High Magic Ritual. It could, in fact, be an honorary title given to Elves who are very capable. I'm not saying that this is the case, I'm just saying that you may be misinterpreting what's been said. Are you speaking about the inherent abilities of the Archmage PrC? If so then I'd say that I don't agree with that. Point in fact, as a DM I take a lot of liberties with the rules, if I want a nonArchmage to have high arcana then I'll go ahead and do that, usually I create a back story that makes sense to me as to why that character has "special abilities" I like a lot of the "flaws" as they make things much simpler. If there was an "accurate, real to life" combat system then I would likely disregard it as it would take WAY to long to run a combat. What has been contradicted? The amount of food an elf needs to sustain themselves? Because I've NEVER seen a rule for that, the best I've seen is "Characters need to eat and drink and this is the cost for a days worth" So where are all these glaring contradictions? Actually, I don't really think I have to, I'm pretty sure that Philaxandros' view is that the elven economy is supported by magic, not based on magic. And I fully agree that EVERYONE who has magic supports their economies with said magic in one way or another. So he always right then. I didnt say that every elven mage is a high mage. Only a fraction of elven mages are high mages. What makes them different from other is the ability to cast elven high magic( a kind of magic that is capable of producing effects that transcend more common magic). A elven mage should only be called a high mage if he's capable of casting high magic. Does Greenwood post means that there are over fifty elven high mages or just that there are over fifty elfs that are called high mages? Just because some call drizzt do'urden a ranger, doesnt change the fact that his highest class levels are in fighter, and so he isnt really a ranger but a fighter with ranger capabilities. So, to you, a human could reseach and develop high magic, or runemagic? Saddly that's not canon, so the debate about elfs bringing high magic to the battlefield, something that other races arent capable of rivaling(with the exceptions of netherill arcanists, imaskar sorcerors) is always bias toward the elvenkind. Did you ever played a archer that score a straight shoot at the head of an enemy fighter, and since the shot didnt caused enough damage to reduce him to 0 or bellow, he could take a swing at you and killed you? If you did, i dont think you see the fun. So lets say a elven comunity of 60.000 elfs eat per day the equivalent of a human comunity of 10.000. Still producing that amount of food wouldnt be a easy task for a people that dont actually have intensive farming, and actually have very few people who are any sort of farmers. So food must be provided in some other source. Apparently, it's magic. In the previous discussion about elven economy, Derren raise the question on how does a society of that size can gather resources to sustain themselves, since most elfs dont work in the resource gathering activities, like in human, halfling, dwarf societies. The answer was magic(lots of create food spells). This because elfs had access to larger amounts of magic that their counterparts. But in highly magical human societies like netheril, imaskar, thay, halruaa, that doesnt happen. A larger percentage of the population works in resource gathering. So how cant this be? There is a big difference in mining for obtaing metals, that can be used to cast spells(like non elven and magic powerful societies do), and Philaxndros depiction of sumoning elemental to bring in the minerium. Or farming and constanly casting walls of appletrees, palmtrees and other food plants.
Boda 05-09-07, 07:24 PM	Phil has stated, multiple times, that magic is fully integrated into Elven society, and thus, economics. That's no different than me saying our own economy is largely based around the usage of electricity. While some places use it more or less, we all utilize it to an extent, and without it, our economy would have developed vastly differently than it has thus far. Boda seems to be taking Phil's statement to a strange fantasy land of hyperbole that exists within his head. As to the subject of Elven High Magic.... In the Elves of Evermeet supplement, Elven High Mage was a kit for 15th+ level Elves that allowed them to surpass their normal level restrictions. In Cormanthyr, it became something only accessable to 17th+ (I think) level wizards who were of a certain age (I think 350 years is when training started), and education took decades under existing high magi, and much patience and singular ability scores (requiring Wisdom and Intelligence far beyond the mortal max at higher levels, and this was before one could Wish for more ability points or the like). In general, this latter view seems to have been developed to a greater extent in Elven supplements and culture, so we can consider this the basis. So, the term 'Elven High Mage' has very stringent requirements, both in and out of game. I cannot imagine that one would refer to someone as an Elven High Mage without him actually being one. High level elven arcane casters in general would still be archmages in game - only a select few can become Elven High Magi, both in and out of character. No, what he wrote places magic as the basis of their economy. Of couse, power stations are a lot more common that mages(elven or not). And some people apparently view elven economy working in a diferent set of principles that any other economy in the history of the Realms. My strange land of fantasy cant be less that your pro-elven pespective. And yes, i agree with your take about high mages. Then again, i never said otherwise, and merely stated that if fifty or so high mages exist, presumably in the largest elven settlements on Faerun, some facts didnt make sense, like the need of evereska for shades help against phaerimm attack, the kymil nimesin plot to take evermeet.
Boda 05-09-07, 07:32 PM	At minimum caster level, 9 ten foot cubes per casting can be created. What does that represent? Well, that's a good question. I'm by no means a fruit expert, but, as I recall, a good mature tree can bear about 400lbs of apples on a successful harvest... That's about 130 or apples for a 15ft high, 15ft-crown tree. How much do you think a magic tree should be able to bear? Other sort of orchards/yards will have different effects. For example (and I'm just throwing these out--I don't imagine they would all be used), strawberries, berries, oranges, grapes, bananas, etc., all provide larger and richer yields for the same areas mentioned above. Now, imagine that a Mythal has been set up, per LEoF, to have such a spell set up as a Vanguard spell. At will, any elf can cast Faelrin's Fruit Orchard (or whatever), as surely as he could Bull's Strength, Stoneskin, or whatever when the random orc happens to interrupt his stroll. At a minimum, you should at least see how something as simple as a one-time casting of the above spell can give you the resources for the pollination Greenwood was talking about. Fruit orchards require much less attention and work than grain farms, and that goes doubly so for orchards enhanced by Druidic magic (Plant Growth, 3rd lvl spell: "Enrichment: This effect targets plants within a range of one-half mile, raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal"). Where do elves get all their steel? How about all that mithril for their oodles of Elven Chainmail? We know they don't mine it. The overwhelming majority of elven nations are nowhere near mountains, nor do they feature mining activity. So how do they get it? We know that, at first, they traded Dwarves magic for both resources and crafted items. Is that still the case? Why don't we hear anything about these (by your own volition) supposedly massive mercantile arrangements, then? The fact of the matter is that we know, courtesy of Races of Faerun and FRCS, that most elves don't walk around with random crap weapons, armor, and housewares. So we can do away with a round-the-clock arms and equipment industry. No. For one thing, components, more often than not, are required in quantities far lesser than those of the products received in exchange. For another, you're assuming a starting resource pool of zero, with each casting putting the community in the red. That's simply not the case. For the record, I want it to be pointed out that the above represent only two different ideas. There's many more, of course that can be addressed via magic with less time and effort than it would take to undertake activities that, as stated before, the elves are never shown engaging in. Basis of economy, not a complement. Thay uses magic to complement, but has slaves for it's basis.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 07:33 PM	So he always right then. "Right" by definition is entirely subjective. Does Greenwood post means that there are over fifty elven high mages or just that there are over fifty elfs that are called high mages? I would say the former. Elven High Mages are very secretive, and they command a great deal of respect among Elven culture. To refer to any old elven archmage as a high mage would be more than a little disrespectful, and could even possibly lead eventual to inquiries about the individual in question trying to pursue the course of Elven High Magic without going through the proper channels. Just because some call drizzt do'urden a ranger, doesnt change the fact that his highest class levels are in fighter, and so he isnt really a ranger but a fighter with ranger capabilities. That's not a very good argument, because in 2E he ONLY had classes in Ranger. That being said, he is a Ranger in the context of Faerunian culture, but in the real world, his abstract mechanics include more levels in Fighter than Ranger. That being said, that's a bad analogy because an Elven High Mage has very specific definitions both in character and out of character. The Ranger class does not have the former. So, to you, a human could reseach and develop high magic, or runemagic?Saddly that's not canon, so the debate about elfs bringing high magic to the battlefield, something that other races arent capable of rivaling(with the exceptions of netherill arcanists, imaskar sorcerors) is always bias toward the elvenkind. Elven High Magic in 3E is merely Epic Spellcasting. Humans are perfectly capable of taking the Epic Spellcasting Feat. To actually research Elven High Magic in 3E, you must be an Elf, and the associated spell takes on the [Elven High Magic] descriptor. So lets say a elven comunity of 60.000 elfs eat per day the equivalent of a human comunity of 10.000. Still producing that amount of food wouldnt be a easy task for a people that dont actually have intensive farming, and actually have very few people who are any sort of farmers. You also have to take into account what sort of foods Elves eat, their availability, and the like. I wager your typical elf would, in a single day, merely snack on berries, perhaps some light bread, and a few mushrooms. Every now and then would be a more 'substantial' meal, perhaps once every two days or so, when a small portion of meat would be consumed. So food must be provided in some other source. Apparently, it's magic. In the previous discussion about elven economy, Derren raise the question on how does a society of that size can gather resources to sustain themselves, since most elfs dont work in the resource gathering activities, like in human, halfling, dwarf societies. The answer was magic(lots of create food spells). Also, the use of magic to make supplies more efficient and the task of gathering them faster and less strenuous. Sort of like the way we use technology now. This because elfs had access to larger amounts of magic that their counterparts. But in highly magical human societies like netheril, imaskar, thay, halruaa, that doesnt happen. A larger percentage of the population works in resource gathering. So how cant this be? Because the cultures you mentioned (other than Halruaa) were (and are, in the case of Thay) ruled by a decadent magocratic elite that cared little, if at all, for the common citizen, and who were actively using resources not only to sustain themselves, but engage in military affairs and try to generate enough surplus to trade with the world at large and gain economic power. Elven settlements (now, at least) are more self-contained and non-expansionistic, so the need for surplus is largely moot. Also, their relatively peaceful, isolationist tendencies would have allowed them to focus their magic on researching more spells and mythals to support the infrastructure of their cultures. Being as one of the tasks of Elven High Mages is to look over the Elven realms as a whole, they would be quite likely to aid in, and personally catalyze, such magical endeavors, as opposed to the haughty egocentric magical 'overlords' of Netheril, Thay, and Imaskar. There is a big difference in mining for obtaing metals, that can be used to cast spells(like non elven and magic powerful societies do), and Philaxndros depiction of sumoning elemental to bring in the minerium. Or farming and constanly casting walls of appletrees, palmtrees and other food plants. You're not thinking about using magic to make such endeavors easier in the long run, which the Elves would be particularly interested in investigating. For instance, in terms of procuring metal resources, if I was an Elven High Mage, I'd research a ritual that, when cast, caused the minerals veins in the ground to liquefy temporarily and rise up out of earth in a small stream. The duration of this stream's flow, before it turned once more into solid matter, could be made very long if enough Elves participated in casting the rituals, and thus you could have quite literally a river of gold waiting to be harvested. With spells in print in 3E like Ghorus Toth's Metal Melt, there's also a mechanical precedent for it, too. Now, as to harvesting orchards? How about using magic to awaken the spirits of trees, which then harvest themselves?
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 07:37 PM	I cannot imagine that one would refer to someone as an Elven High Mage without him actually being one. -It wouldn't happen. Being a High Mage is a very prestigious position, and even the most capable of wizards wouldn't do such a thing, as demonstrated by Araevin, who can clearly cast Epic spells, and is..."physically" good enough to be a High Mage. Though a potential candidate, I do not believe that he ever actually calls himself a High Mage. What makes them different from other is the ability to cast elven high magic( a kind of magic that is capable of producing effects that transcend more common magic). -Elven High Magic, now, is Epic Magic. Thus, it transcends more common magic, but not really "other" Epic spells. A elven mage should only be called a high mage if he's capable of casting high magic. -Yes, that's how it works. Does Greenwood post means that there are over fifty elven high mages or just that there are over fifty elfs that are called high mages? -There are over fifty High Mages. As demonstrated, only actual High Magi are called High Magi. So, to you, a human could reseach and develop high magic, or runemagic? -Humans cannot develop High Magic spells, because the Elven High Magi who know the secrets to researching and casting such spells would never allow them access to their knowledge. Humans can develop Epic spells that work just like Elven High Magic spells, but they cannot cast actaul High Magic spells. Saddly that's not canon, so the debate about elfs bringing high magic to the battlefield, something that other races arent capable of rivaling(with the exceptions of netherill arcanists, imaskar sorcerors) is always bias toward the elvenkind. -Do you have any factual evidence to back that claim up? I've not seen any canon source, from a source book, a novel, or Ed's replies, that has stated the Elven economy is magic based. If this is a claim of another poster then it's just speculation, if you have an actual source then please present it. -To tell the truth, there really isn't even such thing as an "Elven Economy". The majority of Elven settlements are (semi) isolationist, and socialist/communist, to a certain degree.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 07:39 PM	No, what he wrote places magic as the basis of their economy. Just like electricty makes up the bulk of ours, indirectly or directly. And some people apparently view elven economy working in a diferent set of principles that any other economy in the history of the Realms. This is only the economy of the bulk of the Elven realms in the more recent history of the Realms, that we know of. Obviously the economies of Ilythhiir, Aryvandaar, Uvaeren, and the like, may well have been completely different. That being said, I actually think Halruaa is a pretty good match for how the economy of say, Evermeet, would work, albeit it not quite so tightly knit. The Elven mindset is different than that of humans, in part due to a communal empathy that pervades their settlements (such as in the form of communal Reverie). And Elven High Magic, in past editions, at least, REQUIRED settelements to be relatively unified in order to function at all. My strange land of fantasy cant be less that your pro-elven pespective. My perspective is not pro-Elven. I have not said anything about Elven capabilities that they could not logically do as clearly stated in the rules and in context with their culture. And yes, i agree with your take about high mages. Then again, i never said otherwise, and merely stated that if fifty or so high mages exist, presumably in the largest elven settlements on Faerun, some facts didnt make sense, like the need of evereska for shades help against phaerimm attack, the kymil nimesin plot to take evermeet. Return of the Archwizards was a terrible trilogy for analyzing magical strength or versatility of any of the involved participants. I see nothing wrong with Nimesin's plot, though.
Boda 05-09-07, 08:01 PM	-It wouldn't happen. Being a High Mage is a very prestigious position, and even the most capable of wizards wouldn't do such a thing, as demonstrated by Araevin, who can clearly cast Epic spells, and is..."physically" good enough to be a High Mage. Though a potential candidate, I do not believe that he ever actually calls himself a High Mage. -Elven High Magic, now, is Epic Magic. Thus, it transcends more common magic, but not really "other" Epic spells. -Yes, that's how it works. -There are over fifty High Mages. As demonstrated, only actual High Magi are called High Magi. -Humans cannot develop High Magic spells, because the Elven High Magi who know the secrets to researching and casting such spells would never allow them access to their knowledge. Humans can develop Epic spells that work just like Elven High Magic spells, but they cannot cast actaul High Magic spells. -Do you have any factual evidence to back that claim up? -To tell the truth, there really isn't even such thing as an "Elven Economy". The majority of Elven settlements are (semi) isolationist, and socialist/communist, to a certain degree. So in theory, a human spellcaster could develop a spell that does the same thing as a high magic spell? Yes, do agree that high magic knowledge( or access to it) is the barrier that stops non elven from actually learning it. The claim of a elven army backup by high mages with mythal like effects around themselves, strenghtening the army isnt mine. To me high mages a rare enough not to get themselves in such kind of position. That's the hole point. If these comunities are (semi) isolationist, and socialist/communist, to a certain degree, so how they can come up with mithrill, spell components, and other products?
GothicDan 05-09-07, 08:31 PM	That's the hole point. If these comunities are (semi) isolationist, and socialist/communist, to a certain degree, so how they can come up with mithrill, spell components, and other products? Magic.... Coupled with some normal labor and perhaps some very restrictive trade with trusted allies and other elves, and fey or sylvan creatures. And spell components, in general, really are a non-issue in any society, except when particularly rare ones are required.
Boda 05-09-07, 08:33 PM	Just like electricty makes up the bulk of ours, indirectly or directly. This is only the economy of the bulk of the Elven realms in the more recent history of the Realms, that we know of. Obviously the economies of Ilythhiir, Aryvandaar, Uvaeren, and the like, may well have been completely different. That being said, I actually think Halruaa is a pretty good match for how the economy of say, Evermeet, would work, albeit it not quite so tightly knit. The Elven mindset is different than that of humans, in part due to a communal empathy that pervades their settlements (such as in the form of communal Reverie). And Elven High Magic, in past editions, at least, REQUIRED settelements to be relatively unified in order to function at all. My perspective is not pro-Elven. I have not said anything about Elven capabilities that they could not logically do as clearly stated in the rules and in context with their culture. Return of the Archwizards was a terrible trilogy for analyzing magical strength or versatility of any of the involved participants. I see nothing wrong with Nimesin's plot, though. But again, power plant are more common then mages, work 24-7, and have a large scale effect. And dont have life. Agreed. Large empires had to funtion differently. Maybe elfs back then werent so lazy. Sure, unity is great. But who does the actual work on these comunities?Drow use slaves, most of the other races work themselves. But still, you didnt offer any explanation of how does a large elven settlement sustain itself. Some say that magic does the trick, but no other magic powerful societies ever did it like so. So logic states that if netherill, imaskar,thay cant do it, so elfs also cant. Kymil nimesin plot used a circle of traitors(tower of sunrise i think) to attack the circles of high mages. If there were several target circles, it wouldnt seam reasonable that a single circle destroied several high mages circles(wich were considered more powerful to begin with). Queen amruil herself(a high mage) singlehanded teleported a entire fleet of kymil ship away from evermeet, so if this a scale of high mages power(sundering, fall of jaamdath, crown wars), the plot seams even more unlikely. And werent any mythal like effects on evemeet? Because in the novel, red wizards use darkenbeast to bring down drogon and eagle riders, so if there were mythal working, shouldnt these action failed?(some mythals cancel necro magic, others evil magic, others summoning, etc)
Boda 05-09-07, 08:37 PM	Magic.... Coupled with some normal labor and perhaps some very restrictive trade with trusted allies and other elves, and fey or sylvan creatures. And spell components, in general, really are a non-issue in any society, except when particularly rare ones are required. So you do defend that magic is the basis of elven economy?
GothicDan 05-09-07, 08:50 PM	But again, power plant are more common then mages, work 24-7, and have a large scale effect. And dont have life. Mages can produce effects that operate 24-7 and can have significant effects all their own. Mythals, mantles, contingencies, area enchantments, permanency spells, golems, Awakened animals, Elementals, etc. Agreed. Large empires had to funtion differently. Maybe elfs back then werent so lazy. Where do you get the idea that they are lazy? Sure, unity is great. But who does the actual work on these comunities?Drow use slaves, most of the other races work themselves. The Elves do it. It's just that they do it in different ways. But still, you didnt offer any explanation of how does a large elven settlement sustain itself. Actually, I gave two examples in how they could use magic to procure two types of resources with minimal personal labor. Some say that magic does the trick, but no other magic powerful societies ever did it like so. So logic states that if netherill, imaskar,thay cant do it, so elfs also cant. Why in the world would the faults of one culture be indicative of the possibilities of another? Magically, it's possible - that's a fact. What do the Netherese have to do with the Elves? Kymil nimesin plot used a circle of traitors(tower of sunrise i think) to attack the circles of high mages. If there were several target circles, it wouldnt seam reasonable that a single circle destroied several high mages circles(wich were considered more powerful to begin with). It would if it created a spellcasting resonance that disrupted the process and resulted in disaster. Just like in science, you can create resonant frequencies that enlarge the amplitude of oscillations. Queen amruil herself(a high mage) singlehanded teleported a entire fleet of kymil ship away from evermeet, so if this a scale of high mages power(sundering, fall of jaamdath, crown wars), the plot seams even more unlikely. First of all, that power is unique to Queen Amlaruil, not a case of Elven High Magic. Second of all, Elven High Magic is very powerful, but very delicate, which is why it often ends up causing side-effects. Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics deals largely with chaos theory and probability, and how it can affect the overall system. Disrupting such a process that requires so much concentration and harnesses so much power would result in massive backlashes as the Weave sprung back and rippled and the like. And werent any mythal like effects on evemeet? Because in the novel, red wizards use darkenbeast to bring down drogon and eagle riders, so if there were mythal working, shouldnt these action failed?(some mythals cancel necro magic, others evil magic, others summoning, etc) Why are you assuming that a mythal (if there had been one present) would automatically have the ability to prevent darkenbeasts from slaying things in the air? There's no mythal that ever cancelled all "evil magic" (which is entirely subjective, anyway). And most mythals did not extended too far into the air, and there's no telling what any of the mythals of Evermeet may have had as their powers. We can make assumptions, but that's all.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 08:52 PM	So you do defend that magic is the basis of elven economy? I believe that magic is as integral to Elven economy as any other form of technology would be to a culture that had spent tens of thousands of years learning how to refine and utilize it.
Boda 05-09-07, 08:55 PM	"Right" by definition is entirely subjective. That's not a very good argument, because in 2E he ONLY had classes in Ranger. That being said, he is a Ranger in the context of Faerunian culture, but in the real world, his abstract mechanics include more levels in Fighter than Ranger. That being said, that's a bad analogy because an Elven High Mage has very specific definitions both in character and out of character. The Ranger class does not have the former. You also have to take into account what sort of foods Elves eat, their availability, and the like. I wager your typical elf would, in a single day, merely snack on berries, perhaps some light bread, and a few mushrooms. Every now and then would be a more 'substantial' meal, perhaps once every two days or so, when a small portion of meat would be consumed. Also, the use of magic to make supplies more efficient and the task of gathering them faster and less strenuous. Sort of like the way we use technology now. Because the cultures you mentioned (other than Halruaa) were (and are, in the case of Thay) ruled by a decadent magocratic elite that cared little, if at all, for the common citizen, and who were actively using resources not only to sustain themselves, but engage in military affairs and try to generate enough surplus to trade with the world at large and gain economic power. Elven settlements (now, at least) are more self-contained and non-expansionistic, so the need for surplus is largely moot. Also, their relatively peaceful, isolationist tendencies would have allowed them to focus their magic on researching more spells and mythals to support the infrastructure of their cultures. Being as one of the tasks of Elven High Mages is to look over the Elven realms as a whole, they would be quite likely to aid in, and personally catalyze, such magical endeavors, as opposed to the haughty egocentric magical 'overlords' of Netheril, Thay, and Imaskar. You're not thinking about using magic to make such endeavors easier in the long run, which the Elves would be particularly interested in investigating. For instance, in terms of procuring metal resources, if I was an Elven High Mage, I'd research a ritual that, when cast, caused the minerals veins in the ground to liquefy temporarily and rise up out of earth in a small stream. The duration of this stream's flow, before it turned once more into solid matter, could be made very long if enough Elves participated in casting the rituals, and thus you could have quite literally a river of gold waiting to be harvested. With spells in print in 3E like Ghorus Toth's Metal Melt, there's also a mechanical precedent for it, too. Now, as to harvesting orchards? How about using magic to awaken the spirits of trees, which then harvest themselves? But i'm talking about 3E version.He did train in a fighter academy, and lived most of his life in Menzo, serving has a fighter. Only when he came to the surface did he learned ranger capabilities. Still doesnt change the fact that someone had to work to sustain that society. Technology doesnt completly replace the need of human labour, and even some technological aplications that do, arent sustainable to keep. You are assuming that in all of netherill, imaskar, halruaa history, it's rulers were all tyrants that never cared about it's people. I'm not a expert on netherill history but even a shoon qysar could be a saint to the church of ilmater, there no reason why netherese couldnt be sometime nice leaders. And the late human mages empires werent because...? Ok, i guess that could be done, but only in settlements with high mages, and that flow of metal wouldnt affect trees living on top of them? And how would you locate these veins?
GothicDan 05-09-07, 09:08 PM	But i'm talking about 3E version.He did train in a fighter academy, and lived most of his life in Menzo, serving has a fighter. Only when he came to the surface did he learned ranger capabilities. It's still a poor analogy. Still doesnt change the fact that someone had to work to sustain that society. And the Elves DO work. Technology doesnt completly replace the need of human labour, and even some technological aplications that do, arent sustainable to keep. No, but it sure as heck has superceded human labor in man ways. the Industrial Age, and all. You are assuming that in all of netherill, imaskar, halruaa history, it's rulers were all tyrants that never cared about it's people. I'm not a expert on netherill history but even a shoon qysar could be a saint to the church of ilmater, there no reason why netherese couldnt be sometime nice leaders. While there certainly were some 'nice' Netherese Archwizards, by far and large they tended towards a being egomaniacs caring about exalting their own magical skills above all else. The very fact that they created floating enclaves and left the majority of Netherese peasants on the ground (Low Netheril) to fend for themselves against orcish hordes and the like is a sign of just how much they cared, in general, for the population at large. As to Imaskar, well, we know that they employed slavery very heavily and harshly, and that they in time may well have had dealings with the fiendish yugoloths... So that's not painting a very good picture for them. And I already spoke on Halruaa. In fact, I think Halruaa incredibly progressive in terms of both magic and culture. It has a clear LN-LG alignment, and magic there is used just as much to improve the overall level of life as it is to progress individual wizards' personal goals. And the late human mages empires werent because...? Which ones? Ok, i guess that could be done, but only in settlements with high mages, Which the major cities (those of Evermeet, Silverymoon, and Evereska) all have. and that flow of metal wouldnt affect trees living on top of them? You would simply choose an open area of ground for the gold to flow up into. And how would you locate these veins? A low-level divination spell called "Detect Minerals," perhaps. Similar to the Red Dragon's ability. (If they still have that in 3E.)
Boda 05-09-07, 09:23 PM	Mages can produce effects that operate 24-7 and can have significant effects all their own. Mythals, mantles, contingencies, area enchantments, permanency spells, golems, Awakened animals, Elementals, etc Where do you get the idea that they are lazy? The Elves do it. It's just that they do it in different ways. Actually, I gave two examples in how they could use magic to procure two types of resources with minimal personal labor. Why in the world would the faults of one culture be indicative of the possibilities of another? Magically, it's possible - that's a fact. What do the Netherese have to do with the Elves? It would if it created a spellcasting resonance that disrupted the process and resulted in disaster. Just like in science, you can create resonant frequencies that enlarge the amplitude of oscillations. First of all, that power is unique to Queen Amlaruil, not a case of Elven High Magic. Second of all, Elven High Magic is very powerful, but very delicate, which is why it often ends up causing side-effects. Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics deals largely with chaos theory and probability, and how it can affect the overall system. Disrupting such a process that requires so much concentration and harnesses so much power would result in massive backlashes as the Weave sprung back and rippled and the like. Why are you assuming that a mythal (if there had been one present) would automatically have the ability to prevent darkenbeasts from slaying things in the air? There's no mythal that ever cancelled all "evil magic" (which is entirely subjective, anyway). And most mythals did not extended too far into the air, and there's no telling what any of the mythals of Evermeet may have had as their powers. We can make assumptions, but that's all. All trick of powerful mages. How common are they? Aparently they dont like menial work, and base their all economy on no sweat magic. Like no working ways, but waiting for the mages cast it's spell to ring the metal to them. Since Netherill existed in the same time as cormanthyr, and watch the elfs, why would they develop the same magic shortcuts to improve their production output? Still could they do it? And disruptions have unforseen results. What garanties that would destroy the high mages before they could jeopordize Kymil plan? Not evil magic but magic with evil descriptor or something. So do these mythal do anything? Would it be safe to assume that mythal have radius in all directions? Maybe a ward against undead? And what about the fabled magical fields that defend evermeet? All assumptions, but if other elven land had them...
GothicDan 05-09-07, 09:42 PM	All trick of powerful mages. How common are they? Common enough among the Elves, I think. Aparently they dont like menial work, and base their all economy on no sweat magic. Like no working ways, but waiting for the mages cast it's spell to ring the metal to them. I'm a physicist. Does that make me lazy? Since Netherill existed in the same time as cormanthyr, and watch the elfs, why would they develop the same magic shortcuts to improve their production output? Netherese society DID make huge advancements for things that the particular Archwizards thought were important, to them. But that was the key - they did what THEY wanted for themselves. Those Archwizards who helped out the other people at large with his magic was rare. And Netheril itself wasn't even a single culture - each Enclave was independent, and there was a LOT of rivalry between one Encalve and the next. So there was little sharing of ideas and free transition of knowledge and magical research, compared to the elven cultures. Still could they do it? And disruptions have unforseen results. What garanties that would destroy the high mages before they could jeopordize Kymil plan? Nothing. What guarantees anything is going to go exactly as planned? Not evil magic but magic with evil descriptor or something. Which are very few. So do these mythal do anything? Would it be safe to assume that mythal have radius in all directions? Maybe a ward against undead? And what about the fabled magical fields that defend evermeet? We know nothing about Evermeet's mythals, in canon. And look at LEoF. Each mythal is custom made by its casters to have any powers they want it to have.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 12:21 AM	So in theory, a human spellcaster could develop a spell that does the same thing as a high magic spell? -Certainly. The spell, however, would not be an Elven High Magic spell, though. Yes, do agree that high magic knowledge( or access to it) is the barrier that stops non elven from actually learning it. -Correct. In the past, when the rules concerning Elven High Magic was different, this was not the case. In the past, other races simply could not learn Elven High Magic because they were not Elves. Now, with Elven High Magic as "mundane" Epic Magic, the only real thing barring others from casting Elven High Magic is access to the knowledge, and perhaps Corellon Larethian himself, since CL "approves" and "disapproves" of the casting of High Magic rituals. That's the hole point. If these comunities are (semi) isolationist, and socialist/communist, to a certain degree, so how they can come up with mithrill, spell components, and other products? -They get the materials themselves. What is so difficult to grasp about this? I'm a physicist. Does that make me lazy? -Yes.
Stigger 05-10-07, 01:56 AM	Feh, you can make a mythal that aroints spells with the evil descriptor really easily, among a host of other things. If you use some really cheesy homemade epic items (you know, the ones no DM in their right mind would ever actually allow a PC to have) to boost your spellcraft and Intelligence you can achieve some truly scary effects. A mythal that covered a 1.5 mile radius would be pretty doable with enough spellcasters at hand, not to mention a truly prodigious amount of healing potions... ;)
Boda 05-10-07, 08:37 AM	Feh, you can make a mythal that aroints spells with the evil descriptor really easily, among a host of other things. If you use some really cheesy homemade epic items (you know, the ones no DM in their right mind would ever actually allow a PC to have) to boost your spellcraft and Intelligence you can achieve some truly scary effects. A mythal that covered a 1.5 mile radius would be pretty doable with enough spellcasters at hand, not to mention a truly prodigious amount of healing potions... ;) So it would be safe to assume that evermeet might have some of these mentioned magical capabilities?
Boda 05-10-07, 08:41 AM	-They get the materials themselves. What is so difficult to grasp about this? And they use magic. No other magic powerfull human or any other race ever did maintained a economy based on magic, but that's not a problem to the elvenkind.
Boda 05-10-07, 08:59 AM	Common enough among the Elves, I think. I'm a physicist. Does that make me lazy? Netherese society DID make huge advancements for things that the particular Archwizards thought were important, to them. But that was the key - they did what THEY wanted for themselves. Those Archwizards who helped out the other people at large with his magic was rare. And Netheril itself wasn't even a single culture - each Enclave was independent, and there was a LOT of rivalry between one Encalve and the next. So there was little sharing of ideas and free transition of knowledge and magical research, compared to the elven cultures. Nothing. What guarantees anything is going to go exactly as planned? Which are very few. We know nothing about Evermeet's mythals, in canon. And look at LEoF. Each mythal is custom made by its casters to have any powers they want it to have. Please state your source of belief that elf have more numbers of powerful mages that of let's say, humans? I didnt say that elven mages were lazy, only other elfs that expect that the mages do all the work for them. So red wizards see the benefit of magicly control weather to increase crop output, support minework to raise extraction rates, built roads to promote trade, mass produce magical items to gain political and economical advantages, produce better troops, but netherese archwizards didnt? As for political strife in netheril, was any less that sun elfs plot to overthrown moon elf royalty, the whole crown wars affair, bigotry between elven subraces, strife between zulkirs? So how he would know if it worked? So if mythals are custom made, and evermeet always had high mages, where were the mythals effects? Everywhere people tell me how difficult it is to bring down a force with a mythal protection. Why didnt evermeet mythals also made kymils plan fail?
Stigger 05-10-07, 09:02 AM	Heh, no probably not safe to assume they had it. Spellcraft DCs usually hit around the low 200's for spells like that, with major use of ad hoc mitigating factors. I suppose they could do it, were they of a mind, but I doubt those sorts of things would occur to most High Mages since it requires a short trip into munchkinism. :D And its not based on magic, its fueled by magic. There's a difference there. Were it based on magic, everything they traded would be magical in nature. Using magic to gather resources, as well as for fabrication, which are in turn traded is a bit different from trading magical items and knowledge. Its a case of magic as tool versus magic as commodity. Theres nothing preventing any human society from doing that, case in point being Netheril and its heavy use of magic, but that was largely an abberation that really makes little sense given what we know of Netherese attitudes. However, as has been stated in lore, the proclivities of human mages usually preclude them working cooperatively on projects of that scale. The elven mindset towards individualistic collectivism gives their mages a higher likelihood of working towards a greater good, rather than for their own personal good at the expense of society at large. That is the key difference, a societal mindset difference, not any inherent magical superiority on the part of elves.
Aldareth 05-10-07, 09:04 AM	And they use magic. No other magic powerfull human or any other race ever did maintained a economy based on magic, but that's not a problem to the elvenkind. In LEoF , there is a passage ( dont know if it was illefarn ,earlann or some other elven culture ) that states that the elven people trade with their dwarfen allies magic and woodcrafts for minerals and other needed things... so yes elves maintained a economy on magic
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 09:15 AM	If you use some really cheesy homemade epic items (you know, the ones no DM in their right mind would ever actually allow a PC to have) to boost your spellcraft and Intelligence you can achieve some truly scary effects. -Karsus' Avatar...:cool: No other magic powerfull human or any other race ever did maintained a economy based on magic, but that's not a problem to the elvenkind. -What do you call Thay? What do you call Halruaa? What did you call Netheril?
Boda 05-10-07, 09:17 AM	It's still a poor analogy. And the Elves DO work. No, but it sure as heck has superceded human labor in man ways. the Industrial Age, and all. While there certainly were some 'nice' Netherese Archwizards, by far and large they tended towards a being egomaniacs caring about exalting their own magical skills above all else. The very fact that they created floating enclaves and left the majority of Netherese peasants on the ground (Low Netheril) to fend for themselves against orcish hordes and the like is a sign of just how much they cared, in general, for the population at large. As to Imaskar, well, we know that they employed slavery very heavily and harshly, and that they in time may well have had dealings with the fiendish yugoloths... So that's not painting a very good picture for them. And I already spoke on Halruaa. In fact, I think Halruaa incredibly progressive in terms of both magic and culture. It has a clear LN-LG alignment, and magic there is used just as much to improve the overall level of life as it is to progress individual wizards' personal goals. Which ones? Which the major cities (those of Evermeet, Silverymoon, and Evereska) all have. You would simply choose an open area of ground for the gold to flow up into. A low-level divination spell called "Detect Minerals," perhaps. Similar to the Red Dragon's ability. (If they still have that in 3E.) Sure. name in what(and no, magic related activities dont count)? you still compare the avability of technology with magic. do most of earth agricultural explorations dont use human labour? How many mining operations dont use miners? How many factories dont use human labor?most do. Technology is by far more common on RL that magic is on FR, not to mention that mass production is a capability that no magical society has develop nowhere near what technology can. Really? so why did ioulaum went beserk after a orcish horde ravaged low netherill, and started a campaing of extintinof the orcs? Are you saying that they cared less or more that the zullkirs?If they rule the nation, and if the nation gets richer, wouldnt they get richer? So because i deal with slaves, makes care less about the economy of my nation? If they were has you say, why wuld theygo to the trouble of kiddnapping thousands of human from another world to serve has slaves. they would just use magic to get what they needed. And still Halruaa doesnt have a magic based economy. Silverymoon has high mages? our souce? And there wouldnt be any range restrictions?
Boda 05-10-07, 09:27 AM	Heh, no probably not safe to assume they had it. Spellcraft DCs usually hit around the low 200's for spells like that, with major use of ad hoc mitigating factors. I suppose they could do it, were they of a mind, but I doubt those sorts of things would occur to most High Mages since it requires a short trip into munchkinism. :D And its not based on magic, its fueled by magic. There's a difference there. Were it based on magic, everything they traded would be magical in nature. Using magic to gather resources, as well as for fabrication, which are in turn traded is a bit different from trading magical items and knowledge. Its a case of magic as tool versus magic as commodity. Theres nothing preventing any human society from doing that, case in point being Netheril and its heavy use of magic, but that was largely an abberation that really makes little sense given what we know of Netherese attitudes. However, as has been stated in lore, the proclivities of human mages usually preclude them working cooperatively on projects of that scale. The elven mindset towards individualistic collectivism gives their mages a higher likelihood of working towards a greater good, rather than for their own personal good at the expense of society at large. That is the key difference, a societal mindset difference, not any inherent magical superiority on the part of elves. Isnt the basis a FR economies the gathering of natural resouces? If elfs dont mine without magic, dont farm without magic, need magic to produce leather goods, use magic to shape wood, use magic to craft weapons, then magic is the basis to all their economical activities. Strip magic away,and what do you get? They dont mine, farm, or even produce half of their traditional products(in the conventional sense). So no human empires ever made efforts of mass production on anything? Are you sure?
Boda 05-10-07, 09:35 AM	-Karsus' Avatar...:cool: -What do you call Thay? What do you call Halruaa? What did you call Netheril? No, thay economy is slave based and supported by magic, but ever without magic, economical activities wouldnt stop. Halruaa. Most of the population works for a living. They grow crops, mine, fish, craft products, and would still do it even without magic. Netherill? You guys need to agree. Either netherill had magic based economy or not. Dan say that they didnt because the archwizards were selfish and didnt cared about it's people. Apparently, you dont agree. Note that most of the population of netheril lived on low netheril, and didnt use magic very often.
Stigger 05-10-07, 09:38 AM	Boda, I think you're missing Dan's point about technology there. Going by comparable time periods for Earth, Toril is considerably more advanced and civilized comparatively. You're comparing a modern view of society (with its attendant technology) with a people whose understanding of the world around them isn't anywhere near a modern persons would be. Of course its not comparable yet, but give it a few centuries. Are there the massive epidemics sweeping across the heartlands every few years, the massive amounts of crop failure, the utter ignorance and squalor that your average earthen peasant lived in, just for starters? I'd say not... much of that due to magic and its influences. As to the Ioulaum point, note that Dan did qualify his statement there, as a general trait, rather than a absolute trait. Ioulaum was one of the few decent archmages Netheril ever had really. And the point of Zulkirs getting richer, they don't do it to enrich their nations in general, they do it to enrich themselves. That the rest of the nation experiences benefits is a secondary concern, at best. Theres no altruism going on there... As to slave based economy... given that its an incredibly inefficient and ultimately economically ruinous policy in the long term, I'd say it did show that they don't care much about their economy, simply the immediate economic effects it brings. And then there's the whole power trip issue involved in slave dealings, not to mention the fodder for magical experimentation... And I would say that Halruaa did have a magically based economy if you're clinging to the idea that if magic is used, the economy must be based around it. At least as much as most elven societies are based around it anyway.
Stigger 05-10-07, 09:55 AM	Isnt the basis a FR economies the gathering of natural resouces? If elfs dont mine without magic, dont farm without magic, need magic to produce leather goods, use magic to shape wood, use magic to craft weapons, then magic is the basis to all their economical activities. Strip magic away,and what do you get? They dont mine, farm, or even produce half of their traditional products(in the conventional sense). So no human empires ever made efforts of mass production on anything? Are you sure? Of course the gathering of natural resource is the basis of Faerun's economy... just like most other economies I can think of. If we don't mine, farm, and manufacture without technology, does that make technology the basis of our economy? Strip our technology away, and what do we get? Its a tool, nothing more, nothing less, a tool which aids in the gathering of those resources, which hardly makes it the basis of an economy. And on Faerun, no, mass production doesn't exist, its essentially centered around individual artisans hand-crafting individual pieces rather than on mechanized mass production. That's been stated on several occassions in several different places, page 87 of the FRCS most conspicuously mentions that fact under the opening the Agriculture and Industry section. Possibly its beginning in the most primitive sense in Lantan, but its otherwise not there.
Boda 05-10-07, 10:39 AM	Boda, I think you're missing Dan's point about technology there. Going by comparable time periods for Earth, Toril is considerably more advanced and civilized comparatively. You're comparing a modern view of society (with its attendant technology) with a people whose understanding of the world around them isn't anywhere near a modern persons would be. Of course its not comparable yet, but give it a few centuries. Are there the massive epidemics sweeping across the heartlands every few years, the massive amounts of crop failure, the utter ignorance and squalor that your average earthen peasant lived in, just for starters? I'd say not... much of that due to magic and its influences. As to the Ioulaum point, note that Dan did qualify his statement there, as a general trait, rather than a absolute trait. Ioulaum was one of the few decent archmages Netheril ever had really. And the point of Zulkirs getting richer, they don't do it to enrich their nations in general, they do it to enrich themselves. That the rest of the nation experiences benefits is a secondary concern, at best. Theres no altruism going on there... As to slave based economy... given that its an incredibly inefficient and ultimately economically ruinous policy in the long term, I'd say it did show that they don't care much about their economy, simply the immediate economic effects it brings. And then there's the whole power trip issue involved in slave dealings, not to mention the fodder for magical experimentation... And I would say that Halruaa did have a magically based economy if you're clinging to the idea that if magic is used, the economy must be based around it. At least as much as most elven societies are based around it anyway. Again, you misunderstood me, i didnt say that magic didnt had it's advantages over technology, but that it did had disanvantages to. From a economical point of view, technology has a greater effect than magic. He keeps using electricity as a example. Ok, do you think that magic is as common as electricity? A singlr power plant can provide from a very large city, supporting it's economical activities, it's daily life, it's security, etc. The closest thing that magic can provide in that reguard is the mythal, wich dosnet affect the same areas, and neither all the same broad range of different activities. I'm not arguing moral, so why do you hink so? Doesnt the same logic you aplied to the zulkirs also aplies to the netherese? ''incredibly inefficient and ultimately economically ruinous policy in the long term''-and yet drow,druergar,mindflayers,orc,etc do it for thousands of years. Ok, i think i need to be a little more clear about the magic based economy. I'm not the one that defends that elven economy rellies on magic to do a lot of things. When a say magic based economy, i mean a economy wich base economical activities are performed in a way that it's impossible without magic. Per example: Halruaa miners do dig tunnels and use pick and shovels. They may use magical picks and shovel, and rod to locate were the metal vein are, but they do actual digging.If magic were to not work, they would still digg for the metals(with more difficulty), so mining would cease to exist in halruaa. The point that Dan and Philaxandros defend is that in large elven comunities, they dont digg at all, they magiclly extract the metals out of the ground, something that without magic is impossible. The difference is that magic supports the economical activities in halruaa, while in the elven front, it's the sole tool.
Boda 05-10-07, 10:46 AM	Of course the gathering of natural resource is the basis of Faerun's economy... just like most other economies I can think of. If we don't mine, farm, and manufacture without technology, does that make technology the basis of our economy? Strip our technology away, and what do we get? Its a tool, nothing more, nothing less, a tool which aids in the gathering of those resources, which hardly makes it the basis of an economy. And on Faerun, no, mass production doesn't exist, its essentially centered around individual artisans hand-crafting individual pieces rather than on mechanized mass production. That's been stated on several occassions in several different places, page 87 of the FRCS most conspicuously mentions that fact under the opening the Agriculture and Industry section. Possibly its beginning in the most primitive sense in Lantan, but its otherwise not there. Exactly, if technology wasnt used, farming ,mining,etc, wouldnt cease to be, because they dont exist because of technology. But in Dan and Philanxandros theory, if magic cease to be, elfs wouldnt be capable of mining or farming because they performe these activities solely by magical means. I personally dont beliave that a large society, even elven, could be economicly supported this way. Magic makes a lot of shortcuts, but someone has to some actual work.Maybe in the future magic can reach mass production like technology, but so far it cant.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 12:49 PM	-I think you need to straighten out your definition of 'Economy'. Here is what Mr. Dictionary says: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Economy No, thay economy is slave based and supported by magic, but ever without magic, economical activities wouldnt stop. -Thay's main export, as a state, is magical items and slaves. Without magical items, Thay would not have an economy as it does today. In all likelihood, Thay would be a very poor nation, as the terrain the state is located in really isn't the best. Halruaa. Most of the population works for a living. They grow crops, mine, fish, craft products, and would still do it even without magic. -Like Thay, without the magical element, Halruaa's economy would be lacking, though not so much as Thay, as Halruaa has many more recources and such to support itself. Netherill? You guys need to agree. Either netherill had magic based economy or not. Dan say that they didnt because the archwizards were selfish and didnt cared about it's people. Apparently, you dont agree. Note that most of the population of netheril lived on low netheril, and didnt use magic very often. -I'm not Dan. I'm Karsus. Thus, we don't have to conform. -Note that most of Low Netheril was mostly poor, whereas the affluent and the "state leaders" hailed from High Netheril. Thus, it is really only High Netheril we care about. Netheril heavily supported it's economy via magic. The selling of magical items, the research and development of magical items, the selling of quasimagical items, the research and development of quasimagical items, and so on. Without all of this commerce going on between enclave and enclave, and Netheril as a whole with other states, the Netherese economy would have been far different, and far smaller.
ShadezofDis 05-10-07, 01:13 PM	First and foremost. Elves work, the do "farm" but they "farm" in an elven way. Further, elves seem to have a much more vegetarian diet than other humanoid types and it is a well known fact that producing vegetables takes FAR less land than producing meat products. Google can provide you with quite a few sources on this but it's pretty much common sense. (Note: in no way, shape or form am I advocating :p) Dan and Phil have both given ways that magic can aid the elves in farming and procuring minerals (ores), however, they can and DO still trade with other peoples and can get such matterials from them in exchange for fruits, herbs, flowers of various sorts, wood and woodcrafted items, furs (though I'd be hesitant to say that elves actually engage in the fur trapping, but I don't see it unlikely that they'd skin their kills) Second, if one took away the magical ability of Thay's ruling class (the Red Wizards) then Thay's economy would crumble instantly. The slave base would revolt and production of ANYTHING would grind to a halt. Who knows what kind of devestation would be wrought in just the failing enchantments but if you take magic from Thay then Thay no longer exists. Thay is FAR more dependent upon magic than most Elven settlements (it's arguable that Evermeet depends upon magic more but I don't know enough about Evermeet to say, however, I do know that Evermeet would not face massive slave uprisings) Third, the population of our world is FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR larger than that of FR. So making a "technology is used X amount" doesn't really hold water, you need to break it down to "technology is used X amount vs Y population, where magic in FR is used XX amount vs YY population" in order to make a somewhat valid statement, but given the inherent differences between our world and FR such statements aren't very valid to begin with. Last, and probably most important, is the inherent difference between elvenkind and humanity. Elves are far and away more unified than humans, that is not to say that elves are fully unified, just that in comparison to humans they are vastly more unified. You're viewing everying as one extreme or another, that's just simply not true.
Derren S. 05-10-07, 01:35 PM	First and foremost. Elves work, the do "farm" but they "farm" in an elven way. Further, elves seem to have a much more vegetarian diet than other humanoid types and it is a well known fact that producing vegetables takes FAR less land than producing meat products. Google can provide you with quite a few sources on this but it's pretty much common sense. (Note: in no way, shape or form am I advocating :p) Sure but that is offset by the poor location. Elves mostly live thick forests which are not a very good place to farm. Not only is there not much free space, the trees block of most of the sunlight and the ground is rather poor as all minerals get used up by the forest plants. When you consider Eds "elves" primary survive by sunlight and fresh water" it doesn't make sense that they live in a forest which are not very bright places and normally not very close to natural springs. It would make much more sense for them to live on hills or near mountains because there they can get more sunlight and most springs are in the mountains. And if elves would survive by eating fruits and berries they would need huge monocultures to supply a larger population which is not very enviromental.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 01:40 PM	When you consider Eds "elves" primary survive by sunlight and fresh water" it doesn't make sense that they live in a forest which are not very bright places and normally not very close to natural springs. -Read the quote again, because, as I said earlier, Ed makes it clear that Elves do not survive on sunlight and water. They eat food, and the sunlight and water acts as a..."supplement", a "vitamin". You are misquoting what he said, and very badly, might I add.
Derren S. 05-10-07, 01:50 PM	-Read the quote again, because, as I said earlier, Ed makes it clear that Elves do not survive on sunlight and water. They eat food, and the sunlight and water acts as a..."supplement", a "vitamin". You are misquoting what he said, and very badly, might I add. No, you are downplaying what he said. With a Mythal enhancing the water and sunlight elves can go on for a month without barely eating anything. Without a mythal they probably still can survive for weeks without food (or just a handfull of food, barely enough to sustain a human for a day. If they can't then all non mythal elven cities would need large farms.) Sunlight&Water according to Ed is no supplement to civilized elves, it is their main source of "nourishment" while real food is the supplement, although a important one.
GothicDan 05-10-07, 02:38 PM	... I'm a little confused, now, as to what everyone's arguing about, still. I really don't know what more needs to be said.
ShadezofDis 05-10-07, 02:40 PM	Sure but that is offset by the poor location. Elves mostly live thick forests which are not a very good place to farm. Not only is there not much free space, the trees block of most of the sunlight and the ground is rather poor as all minerals get used up by the forest plants. When you consider Eds "elves" primary survive by sunlight and fresh water" it doesn't make sense that they live in a forest which are not very bright places and normally not very close to natural springs. It would make much more sense for them to live on hills or near mountains because there they can get more sunlight and most springs are in the mountains. Roots, berries, flowers and other edible plant life that humans don't generally consume, apples, oranges or pears, cherries, nuts. A quick google search produced this page; http://www.edibleforestgardens.com/about_gardening I'm sorry it's so difficult for you to imagine that they can aquire food. And Elves do not primarily survive on sunlight, it is an aid to their digestion, basically meaning they use more from the food they eat than a human does, it probably means they poo less as well :p And if elves would survive by eating fruits and berries they would need huge monocultures to supply a larger population which is not very enviromental. I disagree completely (about the need for huge monocultural practices), you focus on fruits and berries, but there are FAR more things to eat in a forest than that. No, you are downplaying what he said. With a Mythal enhancing the water and sunlight elves can go on for a month without barely eating anything. Without a mythal they probably still can survive for weeks without food (or just a handfull of food, barely enough to sustain a human for a day. If they can't then all non mythal elven cities would need large farms.) Sunlight&Water according to Ed is no supplement to civilized elves, it is their main source of "nourishment" while real food is the supplement, although a important one. You are missinterpreting his statement, be it willfully or be in mistakenly, but he did not say that sunlight is a main elven dietary staple. And I must take a moment to state, yet again, that water is necessary for life, all creatures must have it, please stop adding it in the discussion. If you would like to dispute the necessity of water then we can do that. Now, to go onward, mythals can boost the elven metabolism to such an extent that they only require food once a month. Now, mythals are some of the greatest enchantments on the face of FR and since there are enchantments that allow characters to go without rest, endure elements, etc why is it so unreasonable that a mythal could produce similar effects?
ShadezofDis 05-10-07, 02:42 PM	-Read the quote again, because, as I said earlier, Ed makes it clear that Elves do not survive on sunlight and water. They eat food, and the sunlight and water acts as a..."supplement", a "vitamin". You are misquoting what he said, and very badly, might I add. And actually, I think your take on it is a little off as well. All I'm reading it as is it allows for greater efficiency in digestion.
ShadezofDis 05-10-07, 02:44 PM	... I'm a little confused, now, as to what everyone's arguing about, still. I really don't know what more needs to be said. I think I'm just a sucker for the :banghead:
Boda 05-10-07, 03:01 PM	-Thay's main export, as a state, is magical items and slaves. Without magical items, Thay would not have an economy as it does today. In all likelihood, Thay would be a very poor nation, as the terrain the state is located in really isn't the best. -Like Thay, without the magical element, Halruaa's economy would be lacking, though not so much as Thay, as Halruaa has many more recources and such to support itself. -I'm not Dan. I'm Karsus. Thus, we don't have to conform. -Note that most of Low Netheril was mostly poor, whereas the affluent and the "state leaders" hailed from High Netheril. Thus, it is really only High Netheril we care about. Netheril heavily supported it's economy via magic. The selling of magical items, the research and development of magical items, the selling of quasimagical items, the research and development of quasimagical items, and so on. Without all of this commerce going on between enclave and enclave, and Netheril as a whole with other states, the Netherese economy would have been far different, and far smaller. No, in FRCS, Thay main imports are iron, slaves,etc and main exports are magical items, jewelry, grain.Pages 87 and 205. Besides Thay already had a good economical status( a least internally) before the rise of the mercantile faction. So the magical trade made them rich but didnt actually save them from bankruptcy. If they were really that bad before, how could they mount sucessive military campaings on their neighbours? Yes, Halruaa would fare better. Sorry ,but since both of you defend diferent opinions about netherill, and when Dan stated his, you didnt said anything, i assumed your silence has a agreement with his. Yes, the main products of netherill economy were magical products, but when a archmage wanted a product(like grain or ore) that was produced by low netherill, wouldnt he get it there? I never stated that the enclaves didnt produced anything, i just stated that they didnt magicly created everything they used. That's the difference between a magic supported economy and a magic based economy. By the way, while checking about Thay exports, i found a curious passage in page 87 of FRCS about resource gathering activities(like farming, mining) on FR. This isnt direct at you Karsus.True, you never stated that elfs only mined or farmed magicly.
Boda 05-10-07, 03:27 PM	First and foremost. Elves work, the do "farm" but they "farm" in an elven way. Further, elves seem to have a much more vegetarian diet than other humanoid types and it is a well known fact that producing vegetables takes FAR less land than producing meat products. Google can provide you with quite a few sources on this but it's pretty much common sense. (Note: in no way, shape or form am I advocating :p) Dan and Phil have both given ways that magic can aid the elves in farming and procuring minerals (ores), however, they can and DO still trade with other peoples and can get such matterials from them in exchange for fruits, herbs, flowers of various sorts, wood and woodcrafted items, furs (though I'd be hesitant to say that elves actually engage in the fur trapping, but I don't see it unlikely that they'd skin their kills) Second, if one took away the magical ability of Thay's ruling class (the Red Wizards) then Thay's economy would crumble instantly. The slave base would revolt and production of ANYTHING would grind to a halt. Who knows what kind of devestation would be wrought in just the failing enchantments but if you take magic from Thay then Thay no longer exists. Thay is FAR more dependent upon magic than most Elven settlements (it's arguable that Evermeet depends upon magic more but I don't know enough about Evermeet to say, however, I do know that Evermeet would not face massive slave uprisings) Third, the population of our world is FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR larger than that of FR. So making a "technology is used X amount" doesn't really hold water, you need to break it down to "technology is used X amount vs Y population, where magic in FR is used XX amount vs YY population" in order to make a somewhat valid statement, but given the inherent differences between our world and FR such statements aren't very valid to begin with. Last, and probably most important, is the inherent difference between elvenkind and humanity. Elves are far and away more unified than humans, that is not to say that elves are fully unified, just that in comparison to humans they are vastly more unified. You're viewing everying as one extreme or another, that's just simply not true. Still, farming in elven way doesnt mean magic dependant. Yes they can. But large settlements(like myth drannor) would need a lot of trade. But this large trade conections arent mentioned anywhere. Leather goods making has far more ugly steps then skining prey.Philaxndros argument was that disruption of elven cities trade routes wasnt a important factor in a warfare action because elfs could get products by magic for as long has they wanted. The economy would crumble because of lack of magic aid to the thay industry or because the ruling class wouldnt be able to keep the nation from rioting? What you are mentioning is the thayan system political faillings not economical. Any slave based nation could suffer that fate, wheater it's rulers are spellcasters or not.If let say Akanax military would be destroied in a campaing, their slaves would also riot. Hey, i only try to state that magic, has it exist on FR currently, cant perform the same role of technology simple because it isnt developed to mass production.Besides i mentioned specific nations not the whole continent. Cant see why is it so hard to accept that spellcasters arent factory workers that dish magic creations. Isnt spellcasting a part creative process? Yes, they are more unified. Your point is that their unity allows them to...? Are humans in the most productive nations more unified than humans on the least productive? Dwarfs? Gnomes?
Boda 05-10-07, 03:35 PM	The real questions should be: Do elfs mine, in the convencinal way? If not, why?Do they farm, in the conventinal way(without magic)?Do they get all ore from trade? And if there isnt a trading partner near?
GothicDan 05-10-07, 03:38 PM	I think was already addressed those things. In the larger settlements, no. They supplement heavily with magic.
msatran 05-10-07, 04:48 PM	Uh, what does all of this have to do with military tactics? I understand that lines of supply can be supplemented with magic at every possible stage, but I think this thread has slipped severely off topic.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 04:53 PM	No, in FRCS, Thay main imports are iron, slaves,etc and main exports are magical items, jewelry, grain.Pages 87 and 205. -Alright, that just reinforces what I said- that the Thayan economy thrives on the sale of magical items, components, and so on. Besides Thay already had a good economical status( a least internally) before the rise of the mercantile faction.So the magical trade made them rich but didnt actually save them from bankruptcy. -We know little about Thay before it became a magocracy, as it is today. Therefore, you cannot say what you just said. If they were really that bad before, how could they mount sucessive military campaings on their neighbours? -Barbarians who are big brutes don't need fancy contraptions and wealth to loot and pillage, as long as they have clubs. Yes, the main products of netherill economy were magical products, but when a archmage wanted a product(like grain or ore) that was produced by low netherill, wouldnt he get it there? -Depends on the archmage. I am sure that some did, while other's didn't. Don't forget that the Low Netherese really dispised the High Netherese.
Stigger 05-10-07, 05:44 PM	Again, you misunderstood me, i didnt say that magic didnt had it's advantages over technology, but that it did had disanvantages to. From a economical point of view, technology has a greater effect than magic. He keeps using electricity as a example. Ok, do you think that magic is as common as electricity? A singlr power plant can provide from a very large city, supporting it's economical activities, it's daily life, it's security, etc. The closest thing that magic can provide in that reguard is the mythal, wich dosnet affect the same areas, and neither all the same broad range of different activities. Shadez covered that pretty well, but its also a matter of intent. Technology has progressed with the idea of either making some task easier and more efficient, which is relatively altruistic compared to magic... probably more motivated by profit or fame than anything else if we're taking cynical views of scientists and technologists. Also consider that for the most part Earth's technology was advancing at a painfully slow rate up until around the 1800's, when the idea of massive, international peer review and sharing of knowledge really kicked in. That caused an explosion of innovation that's still happening some 200 years later. When/if that sort of knowledge sharing occurs on Faerun, we'll likely see something similar in magic, but for now, its largely limited to sharing on a small regional level at a rare best... I'm not arguing moral, so why do you hink so? Doesnt the same logic you aplied to the zulkirs also aplies to the netherese? The whole 'caring about their nation and economy thing kinda hinted around a semi-moral equivalency there. And yes, it does apply to the Netherese... though really, I'd say the Netherese were actually worse than the Thayvians, at least so far. ''incredibly inefficient and ultimately economically ruinous policy in the long term''-and yet drow,druergar,mindflayers,orc,etc do it for thousands of years. Mindflayers use them as a food source, so it has a more practical use for them. I'm not going to go into the economic realities of slave-based economies, but honestly I'd say Thay and Calimshan should have collapsed a while ago. Makes for great villains I guess, but not very logical in a lot of respects. Ok, i think i need to be a little more clear about the magic based economy. I'm not the one that defends that elven economy rellies on magic to do a lot of things. When a say magic based economy, i mean a economy wich base economical activities are performed in a way that it's impossible without magic. Per example: Halruaa miners do dig tunnels and use pick and shovels. They may use magical picks and shovel, and rod to locate were the metal vein are, but they do actual digging.If magic were to not work, they would still digg for the metals(with more difficulty), so mining would cease to exist in halruaa. The point that Dan and Philaxandros defend is that in large elven comunities, they dont digg at all, they magiclly extract the metals out of the ground, something that without magic is impossible. The difference is that magic supports the economical activities in halruaa, while in the elven front, it's the sole tool. Given the elven mindset and attitude towards magic, it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do however. I'm not sure why you seem to have this idea that the heavy use of magic in a society is such a great and terrible sin that must be stopped... there's nothing that says elves can't mine, simply that they don't, since the methods they use are presumably more friendly to the environment and far more efficient than a more traditional approach... not to mention the whole drow part of the equation. To perhaps put this in perspective, there is absolutely no reason for airplanes to exist, since cars and boats can get us pretty much anywhere we want to go. Airplanes however accomplish that travel much more efficiently and a whole lot faster in most cases, so we use them. Same thing is true with magic. Exactly, if technology wasnt used, farming ,mining,etc, wouldnt cease to be, because they dont exist because of technology. But in Dan and Philanxandros theory, if magic cease to be, elfs wouldnt be capable of mining or farming because they performe these activities solely by magical means. I personally dont beliave that a large society, even elven, could be economicly supported this way. Magic makes a lot of shortcuts, but someone has to some actual work.Maybe in the future magic can reach mass production like technology, but so far it cant. Actually, without technology, all that stuff would cease to exist. Tools are needed to accomplish those tasks, and tools are the very foundation of technology. I think you're coming from a slightly skewed position however... I'm beginning to realize that you seem to think that when the elves 'mine' with magic, that finished immediately useable metal comes out of the ground. Going by the same logic and explanation that was behind the 2e Construction spell, which I'm presuming is the basis of the magical mining, a mass of raw ore is grown from the ground, which is then harvested and refined into a useable state by smiths and the like. The elves still require the same basic set of skills, they just bypass the underground part of it. I promise you that if someone on Earth figured out a way to grow industrial minerals and ores efficiently and reliably on a large scale, and at a reasonable cost, then mining would largely be abandoned as soon as was possible.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 06:25 PM	To perhaps put this in perspective, there is absolutely no reason for airplanes to exist, since cars and boats can get us pretty much anywhere we want to go. Airplanes however accomplish that travel much more efficiently and a whole lot faster in most cases, so we use them. Same thing is true with magic. -Excellent analogy.
sages 05-10-07, 07:24 PM	Physicists are not lazy.:schemes: Humans can go on with small amounts of food for months as long they have water, Why wouldnt elves be capable of that, if not more? As i can see, this debate was about elven military, not elven food.( I apologize for bad grammar.) :hides:
ShadezofDis 05-10-07, 07:49 PM	The debate has side tracked. Welcome to the world of internet threads :) And, I find that perfectly acceptable.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 08:20 PM	Physicists are not lazy.:schemes: -Yes, they are. :P
GothicDan 05-10-07, 08:35 PM	*Slays LK after having only slept two nights this week.*
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 11:08 PM	*Slays LK after having only slept two nights this week.* -After you killed me last time, I developed an immunity. Sorry...;)
GothicDan 05-10-07, 11:19 PM	That's an illusion. You are actually dead.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 11:25 PM	-Since I can't be sure that you are actually real, I'm going to have to pass on that assertation.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 02:19 AM	Cute lil delusional corpse man!
The Ubbergeek 05-11-07, 02:48 AM	That's an illusion. You are actually dead. .... He know Hokuto, Darn.
Stigger 05-11-07, 07:41 AM	Well, considering that resource gathering and the like is rather integral to a society's capability to conduct warfare, its at least a relavent tangent really.
ShadezofDis 05-11-07, 10:17 AM	Well, considering that resource gathering and the like is rather integral to a society's capability to conduct warfare, its at least a relavent tangent really. Point in fact, it is, IMO, THE most important factor in a societies ability to wage war.
Stigger 05-11-07, 10:43 AM	Nah, a large enough population to field an actual military force, while still maintaining that resource gathering is equally important. ;)
ShadezofDis 05-11-07, 11:20 AM	Nah, a large enough population to field an actual military force, while still maintaining that resource gathering is equally important. ;) Well, that is somewhat implied though. If you don't have people to produce the food and ship the food to your forces then you aren't feeding your force. :) AKA, I'm aware that there is more to feeding an army than just having food, which I am also aware that you are aware of that.
Derren S. 05-11-07, 01:26 PM	And the problem is that both, the elven military power and its whole economy heavily base on magic (at leats thats what some people are suggesting). But even elves can't use their spellcasters for combat and for the economy at the same time. So any prolonged war would wreak their economy, or they have to withdraw so that their spellcasters can be used to prevent that.
ShadezofDis 05-11-07, 01:44 PM	But even elves can't use their spellcasters for combat and for the economy at the same time. So any prolonged war would wreak their economy, or they have to withdraw so that their spellcasters can be used to prevent that. And that holds true for every society.
Alediran 05-11-07, 01:50 PM	And the problem is that both, the elven military power and its whole economy heavily base on magic (at leats thats what some people are suggesting). But even elves can't use their spellcasters for combat and for the economy at the same time. So any prolonged war would wreak their economy, or they have to withdraw so that their spellcasters can be used to prevent that. That is why you put the low level casters to production, the mid level in combat and the high/epic level in research and development.
Stigger 05-11-07, 04:13 PM	Been a lot of zero-summing around here of late...
msatran 05-11-07, 05:42 PM	No, actually, sadly, it doesn't work that way. The high level ones are in R+D, and everything else is a holding action. Eventually, the Elves research a "Destroy their enemies from their bedroom!" spell, and cast it. Their enemies die. However, people now have no idea what the heck is going on. Pretty much, the elves in the Realms are a moral lesson in "Never leave the house roleplay."
Lord Karsus 05-11-07, 05:44 PM	-I don't get it.
Stigger 05-11-07, 06:10 PM	Sounds suspiciously like a snide elven wizard as deus ex comment to me...
msatran 05-12-07, 04:08 PM	Grin. Sadly, according to the rules for epic spellcasting, this can, in fact, happen, and frequently. Heck, I don't understand why Telamont Tanthul hasn't already taken over the world from his bedroom. Maybe long ago, some Elven wizard realized that he could take over the world from his bedroom and cast a spell that prevented people subconsciously from researching "Take over the World From my Bedroom" type spells successfully.
Lord Karsus 05-12-07, 06:47 PM	Heck, I don't understand why Telamont Tanthul hasn't already taken over the world from his bedroom. Maybe long ago, some Elven wizard realized that he could take over the world from his bedroom and cast a spell that prevented people subconsciously from researching "Take over the World From my Bedroom" type spells successfully. -Ah, ah, gotcha.
Stigger 05-12-07, 07:56 PM	Darn sneaky elves... I can't ever manage to take over the world from my bedroom... the living room works usually, but I gotta get out of bed more often than not.... :(
MarkusTay63 05-12-07, 08:08 PM	I'm late, did I miss anything? :P Elves have a military? :blink: Awwwww, does the cuddly widdle Elvsy Welvsies think they're tuff? HOW PRECIOUS! :D ;) :rofl:
Stigger 05-12-07, 09:08 PM	Its widdle, not liddle. :tongue: :D
Alediran 05-12-07, 09:20 PM	I'm late, did I miss anything? :P Elves have a military? :blink: Awwwww, does the cuddly liddle Elvsy Welvsies think they're tuff? HOW PRECIOUS! :D ;) :rofl: *Casts Persistent Maze* See you in a couple days.
ShadezofDis 05-13-07, 01:47 AM	Heck, I don't understand why Telamont Tanthul hasn't already taken over the world from his bedroom. Maybe long ago, some Elven wizard realized that he could take over the world from his bedroom and cast a spell that prevented people subconsciously from researching "Take over the World From my Bedroom" type spells successfully. Cause the gods would get miffed.
Khaelieth 05-13-07, 01:06 PM	I'm late, did I miss anything? :P Elves have a military? :blink: Awwwww, does the cuddly liddle Elvsy Welvsies think they're tuff? HOW PRECIOUS! :D ;) :rofl: You're just jealous of our wonderful hair!
Boda 05-13-07, 04:30 PM	Given the elven mindset and attitude towards magic, it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do however. I'm not sure why you seem to have this idea that the heavy use of magic in a society is such a great and terrible sin that must be stopped... there's nothing that says elves can't mine, simply that they don't, since the methods they use are presumably more friendly to the environment and far more efficient than a more traditional approach... not to mention the whole drow part of the equation. To perhaps put this in perspective, there is absolutely no reason for airplanes to exist, since cars and boats can get us pretty much anywhere we want to go. Airplanes however accomplish that travel much more efficiently and a whole lot faster in most cases, so we use them. Same thing is true with magic. I think you're coming from a slightly skewed position however... I'm beginning to realize that you seem to think that when the elves 'mine' with magic, that finished immediately useable metal comes out of the ground. Going by the same logic and explanation that was behind the 2e Construction spell, which I'm presuming is the basis of the magical mining, a mass of raw ore is grown from the ground, which is then harvested and refined into a useable state by smiths and the like. The elves still require the same basic set of skills, they just bypass the underground part of it. I promise you that if someone on Earth figured out a way to grow industrial minerals and ores efficiently and reliably on a large scale, and at a reasonable cost, then mining would largely be abandoned as soon as was possible. No, i dont have the idea that the heavy use of magic in a society is such a great and terrible sin that must be stopped. I just dont believe that that would replace completely conventional economical activities. If they dont mine conventinally, how do they do it? Drow? Yes, much faster, but boats and car are still in use arent they? Why do think so? Speed isnt the only factor to consider in transportation. No, Dan description mentioned metal from the ground, nothing more. Again that does not answer the question of acess to that kind of magic. Is it high level magic? With dont humans do it? You mixing my opinions with others.
GothicDan 05-13-07, 05:14 PM	Huh, I just noticed Boda's signature... Now all of my questions are answered. I hope you and Derren make good troll partners together.
Derren S. 05-13-07, 05:27 PM	Ah the troll club comes finally out. Its pretty handy when constantly repeating "Ed said so" doesn't do it anymore, isn't it? Seriously imo there are valid complains that the elven society as shown in the (rule) books doesn't work. That the elves are still able to do it somehow because the designers want it to be this way doesn't cut it for me. You might accept it that elves are somehow so much more advanced that they can do all this easily despite numerous arguments why they can't but some people like that a gameing world is a bit more consistent. When magic could be used to empower the economy so much that the elves are able to compete then other races can do it too, not as good as elves but they can. And this means that again they overtake elves in productivity. No matter how you turn it, with their "hippy, ultra enviromental" lifestyle the elves sacrifice so much economy that logically they would be unable to support any form of advanced civilization which stands a chance of defending itself against enemies. But I guess someone will soon come up with new powers for elves to explain all that... When elves can use magic to power nearly their whole economy because they otherwise don't get many ressources, then other races who do get those ressources can use the magic they have to cover what they don't mine naturally. They might have less magic than elves but they would also need it much less. That would mean that the elves (and everyone else) can't trade much with the other nation as everyone with some wizards would have everything. Also as such a arcane magic dependant society, the elves would have a huge demand of spellcasting materials and many of them you can't get in a forest or have to be mined/processed. Face it, the way elves are displayed in the realms they would not be able to get an advanced society, let alone one with a large arcane tradition as they would not have access to vital ressources and most spellcasting materials.
Lord Karsus 05-13-07, 07:26 PM	-I really don't understand what, exactly, the problem is... Also as such a arcane magic dependant society, the elves would have a huge demand of spellcasting materials and many of them you can't get in a forest or have to be mined/processed. Face it, the way elves are displayed in the realms they would not be able to get an advanced society, let alone one with a large arcane tradition as they would not have access to vital ressources and most spellcasting materials. -Use magic to create your magical components. It works...
The Ubbergeek 05-13-07, 08:42 PM	I think there is a point that many don't get much... The 'official' lore is the official lore. The truth, the 'dark' like they say in planescape, may be different. Elves are maybe not always so perfect defencers of the nature, and for surevival, they may do things like mining or farming, that may break nature.... for me, they do their darn best to limit any dammages, but it's not always possible to be perfectly ecological. And so they may end up working on ecological clean up, so to speak.
GothicDan 05-13-07, 10:52 PM	Ah the troll club comes finally out. Its pretty handy when constantly repeating "Ed said so" doesn't do it anymore, isn't it? Yes. Because ignoring something we state repeatedly as canon (which it IS, whether you WANT it to be or not) is trolling.
Derren S. 05-14-07, 02:37 AM	-Use magic to create your magical components. It works... So, how? Minor/Major creation? Those spell specifically say that creating spellcasting components don't work. Wall of Spellcasting Components? That spell doesn't exist. The omnious, low level "Summon Spellcasting Components" spell only known by elven civilians? Doesn't exist either. Come up with real examples and not just throw "Magic is the solution" statements around. And don't come with "Not all spells are documented". That might be true and I accept that explanation for spells which are of absolutly no interest for adventurers, but that does not apply to a spell which summons spellcasting components. Yes. Because ignoring something we state repeatedly as canon (which it IS, whether you WANT it to be or not) is trolling. Ah, that means that nearly everyone on this board is a troll as 99% of all discussion on these boards can be stopped with this argument. Remember the topic which spawned this one? All trolls as it was established in the first post what the canon is. No further discussion needed. So either you ban nearly every user (which probably also includes you. Or have you never disagreed with the canon in any topic? And Philalexandros is a troll too as in the army size threat in post 7 he said that the size of Akanax army size is unrealistic therby contradicting the official lore.) and reduce the posting rates on this board to 1 post a day or you accept that it is allowed to continue to discuss something when the canon is already known. Oh I know. it is only disalowwed to question lore you do like, is it?
Stigger 05-14-07, 09:10 AM	No, i dont have the idea that the heavy use of magic in a society is such a great and terrible sin that must be stopped. I just dont believe that that would replace completely conventional economical activities. If they dont mine conventinally, how do they do it? Drow? Yes, much faster, but boats and car are still in use arent they? Why do think so? Speed isnt the only factor to consider in transportation. No, Dan description mentioned metal from the ground, nothing more. Again that does not answer the question of acess to that kind of magic. Is it high level magic? With dont humans do it? You mixing my opinions with others. Why would they replace conventional economical activities? They still do plenty of work by hand... while not canon for the Realms, Races of the Wild very strongly illustrates that point, and Elves of Evermeet from 2e certainly doesn't give that impression either. Races of Faerun doesn't do much to give that impression either, at least I didn't think so. I'm really not sure how you came to that conclusion... And yes, those boats and cars are still in use because they can do things aircraft can't. Its using the appropriate tool at the appropriate time and place, there's no such thing as a do-it-all wonder tool in existance, even with magic. Art supplements engineering, as the FRCS clearly points out, the two complement each other, not replace each other. It isn't a question of speed, its a question of purpose and function. And no, its not a terribly high level spell, 5th or so in 2e, the Construction spell, which allows buildings and other structures to be grown out of the earth by 'pulling' it up from wherever. Haven't looked at it in a while, but I recall it working equally well on both minerals and vegetation, and being able to affect... maybe 10 cubic feet per level? It takes a while to bring into effect, but it would probably be preferable to creating a 'scar' in the earth to an elven mindset. I think it was classed as something of an elven secret, possibly even low order High Magic, don't recall exactly offhand, so not something humans would really have access to. Didn't intend to mix your opinion with others though, I apologize if I did though. :)
Stigger 05-14-07, 09:17 AM	Derren... there are things like the Eschew Materials and Ignore Material component feats out there that could be used to cut that one down quite a bit. As the Artblade of Cormanthyr clearly shows, elves are also more than capable of creating items that allow material components to be bypassed altogether. There also is a 1st level conjuration spell out there, strangely enough, called 'Summon Component'... though I don't recall what book it was in offhand.
ShadezofDis 05-14-07, 10:24 AM	Seriously imo there are valid complains that the elven society as shown in the (rule) books doesn't work. That the elves are still able to do it somehow because the designers want it to be this way doesn't cut it for me. You might accept it that elves are somehow so much more advanced that they can do all this easily despite numerous arguments why they can't but some people like that a gameing world is a bit more consistent. Give a concrete example. If you are speaking to material components then say what spells and what components. If you are speaking to a particular facet of economy then spell it out plainly. (ie. Elves can't produce enough food for a settlement of X size because of Y and Z reasons) You have yet to put forth a "problem" that can't be solved by either; Work on the part of Elves (and I'm not sure where the "Elves don't do anything" opinion came from but it is false, Elves work and they work hard) or Trade with other races Please, just give some concrete examples. And yes, the caveat is upon you to prove the "Elven society can't function" statement. Further, state what elven settlement you're talking about because Elven society isn't the same across FR, point in fact, it is very different. (Just as a couple of examples, The Elves of Evereska are VERY different from the Elves of the Chondalwood are VERY different from the Elves living in Tethyr and so on and so forth)
Lord Karsus 05-14-07, 10:32 AM	So, how? Minor/Major creation? Those spell specifically say that creating spellcasting components don't work. Wall of Spellcasting Components? That spell doesn't exist. The omnious, low level "Summon Spellcasting Components" spell only known by elven civilians? Doesn't exist either. Come up with real examples and not just throw "Magic is the solution" statements around. And don't come with "Not all spells are documented". That might be true and I accept that explanation for spells which are of absolutly no interest for adventurers, but that does not apply to a spell which summons spellcasting components. -Major Creation allows the caster to create mica, which happens to be the material component for the spell Glitterdust. Thus, the spell creates material components. That clause at the end of Minor Creation seems to me, to be talking about the Minor Creation spell itself, preventing a character from using the item he/she created as the magical component for his/her next Minor Creation spell, creating an infinite loop of items. -And I still don't see where the problem stems from, concerning your entire argument...How is Elven society "broken"? :rolleyes:
ShadezofDis 05-14-07, 10:52 AM	-And I still don't see where the problem stems from, concerning your entire argument...How is Elven society "broken"? :rolleyes: I would say "How is a specific Elven society 'broken'?" Otherwise we're going to continue to get the same general arguments. . . not that I'm really sure what those are.
Boda 05-14-07, 10:57 AM	Huh, I just noticed Boda's signature... Now all of my questions are answered. I hope you and Derren make good troll partners together. Yes, yours also says a lot.
Boda 05-14-07, 11:14 AM	Why would they replace conventional economical activities? They still do plenty of work by hand... while not canon for the Realms, Races of the Wild very strongly illustrates that point, and Elves of Evermeet from 2e certainly doesn't give that impression either. Races of Faerun doesn't do much to give that impression either, at least I didn't think so. I'm really not sure how you came to that conclusion... And yes, those boats and cars are still in use because they can do things aircraft can't. Its using the appropriate tool at the appropriate time and place, there's no such thing as a do-it-all wonder tool in existance, even with magic. Art supplements engineering, as the FRCS clearly points out, the two complement each other, not replace each other. It isn't a question of speed, its a question of purpose and function. And no, its not a terribly high level spell, 5th or so in 2e, the Construction spell, which allows buildings and other structures to be grown out of the earth by 'pulling' it up from wherever. Haven't looked at it in a while, but I recall it working equally well on both minerals and vegetation, and being able to affect... maybe 10 cubic feet per level? It takes a while to bring into effect, but it would probably be preferable to creating a 'scar' in the earth to an elven mindset. I think it was classed as something of an elven secret, possibly even low order High Magic, don't recall exactly offhand, so not something humans would really have access to. That's the point! I didnt say that. What i did was to express my disbelief when others stated that that could be possible, like in a state of war, elven logistics couldnt be disrupted, because they could ''magiclly'' sustain all their economical activities. When the question about myth drannor arised, the point of a 60000 elven nation with a small(by comparison) military force could sustain a long war without suffering massive economical disruption, thats what i doubted. My personal belief is that they do mine and farm both with magic and without, just like other races( when possible), not solely magic solving everything. Exactly. 5th level. So it would require a fairly skilled mage to cast it. This excludes most small and medium settlements from being able to acess it(since they not likely have those mages). So only large elven settlements then.
Boda 05-14-07, 11:28 AM	Beyond that, I have never argued that my examples apply broadly to each and every Elven state. Evereska, Cormanthyr, Evermeet, and other larger Elven enclaves certainly don't need to rely on mundane resource procurement. On the other hand, smaller communities (say, those in the hundreds) certainly need to maintain a level of contact with either the outside world (trading with humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, etc.) or with greater elven states (via portals, elf-gates) for support and for things they don't have. I tend to favor the latter approach (elf-gates or portals to Evereska or Evermeet) because the concept of the Retreat kind of makes the idea of maintaining contact with the very beings they want to leave behind kind of counter-intuitive, you know? ;) At minimum caster level, 9 ten foot cubes per casting can be created. What does that represent? Well, that's a good question. I'm by no means a fruit expert, but, as I recall, a good mature tree can bear about 400lbs of apples on a successful harvest... That's about 130 or apples for a 15ft high, 15ft-crown tree. How much do you think a magic tree should be able to bear? Other sort of orchards/yards will have different effects. For example (and I'm just throwing these out--I don't imagine they would all be used), strawberries, berries, oranges, grapes, bananas, etc., all provide larger and richer yields for the same areas mentioned above. Now, imagine that a Mythal has been set up, per LEoF, to have such a spell set up as a Vanguard spell. At will, any elf can cast Faelrin's Fruit Orchard (or whatever), as surely as he could Bull's Strength, Stoneskin, or whatever when the random orc happens to interrupt his stroll. At a minimum, you should at least see how something as simple as a one-time casting of the above spell can give you the resources for the pollination Greenwood was talking about. Fruit orchards require much less attention and work than grain farms, and that goes doubly so for orchards enhanced by Druidic magic (Plant Growth, 3rd lvl spell: "Enrichment: This effect targets plants within a range of one-half mile, raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal"). The question still remains: how much do they need? How often is it needed? Where do elves get all their steel? How about all that mithril for their oodles of Elven Chainmail? We know they don't mine it. The overwhelming majority of elven nations are nowhere near mountains, nor do they feature mining activity. So how do they get it? We know that, at first, they traded Dwarves magic for both resources and crafted items. Is that still the case? Why don't we hear anything about these (by your own volition) supposedly massive mercantile arrangements, then? The fact of the matter is that we know, courtesy of Races of Faerun and FRCS, that most elves don't walk around with random crap weapons, armor, and housewares. So we can do away with a round-the-clock arms and equipment industry. For the record, I want it to be pointed out that the above represent only two different ideas. There's many more, of course that can be addressed via magic with less time and effort than it would take to undertake activities that, as stated before, the elves are never shown engaging in. What i mean is that this is not my opinion.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 11:41 AM	That's the point! I didnt say that. What i did was to express my disbelief when others stated that that could be possible, like in a state of war, elven logistics couldnt be disrupted, because they could ''magiclly'' sustain all their economical activities. When the question about myth drannor arised, the point of a 60000 elven nation with a small(by comparison) military force could sustain a long war without suffering massive economical disruption, thats what i doubted. Why? How do you think Cormanthyr would be affected? That's what I'm waiting to hear from you. So far, all I've heard is that it would be. Explain to me how a state that can allocate a little less than a thousand mages to just MILITARY matters would somehow be magically compromised by a war? My personal belief is that they do mine and farm both with magic and without, just like other races( when possible), not solely magic solving everything. Boda, your problem is that you look at this subject in terms of lowest common denominators. You are, in other words, trying to simplify things to an unrealistic level. Some elves don't farm at all, period. Green elves, for example, as well as many copper elves, would be primarily hunter-gatherer types. Nomadic moon elf clans would likely not be involved in any food growth activity. Established communities would have a mix of the two. As show, time and time again, neither their requirement is that great, nor does their desired product require the considerations and work that human agrarian efforts do. Where magic is available, though, that is their primary means of addressing these needs. Where mining is concerned, we're simply in disagreement. Is anyone aware of any lore regarding surface elves mining? 5th level. So it would require a fairly skilled mage to cast it. This excludes most small and medium settlements from being able to acess it(since they not likely have those mages). So only large elven settlements then. First, Construction was a 6th level spell, which means it would require an 11th level caster. Second of all, you're simply making assumptions again. Elf communities hardly subscribe to the human norm regarding number of mages, levels of mages, etc.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 11:44 AM	What i mean is that this is not my opinion. So qualify it, then. I've gone out of my way, time and again, to post lore, canon facts, and plausible means that show how things could be done. You've given me assumptions regarding what can and cannot be done, but very little data to back it up. :( PS, thanks for reposting my post above. For whatever reason, I'd stated that 400lbs of apples equals 130 or so apples. That's more like 800 apples. I just felt the need to address that embarassing error. :D
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:08 PM	So either you ban nearly every user (which probably also includes you. Or have you never disagreed with the canon in any topic? And Philalexandros is a troll too as in the army size threat in post 7 he said that the size of Akanax army size is unrealistic therby contradicting the official lore.) and reduce the posting rates on this board to 1 post a day or you accept that it is allowed to continue to discuss something when the canon is already known. Oh I know. it is only disalowwed to question lore you do like, is it? Disagreeing with lore is fine. NOT accepting canon as canon is trolling.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:12 PM	PS, thanks for reposting my post above. For whatever reason, I'd stated that 400lbs of apples equals 130 or so apples. That's more like 800 apples. I just felt the need to address that embarassing error. That sure does feed a whole lot of Elves for a day! ;)
Derren S. 05-14-07, 01:49 PM	That sure does feed a whole lot of Elves for a day! ;) If you just wouldn't ignore the other problems... 800 apples is much but how many apples does a elf need in a year? How about 700 (two apples a day)? That is imo a very optimistic estimation. And lets say that with magic a apple tree produces enough apples worth 2x its normal harvest each year so 1600 apples. (Again much more optimistic than the 1/3 increase from plant grow). That would mean you would need a little bit less than 1 tree for every 2 elves. So for a large city with 50.000 elves that means they need 25.000 trees. And now for the things you usually tend to ignore. Those apples also have to be stored somewhere. Each harvest of the two harvests would yeild 20 million apples (much more if instead of two harvests there is only one big magically enhanced one). Good luck storing that somewhere. I guess every household (assuming 5 persons per house) has a storage space for 3500 apples. Whats the volume of a typical apple (you know the magically enhanced ones). And that is not all. Apples don't stay fresh very long. So everys household apple storage needs to be enchanted so that the apples do not rot and keep vermin out. Looks like every house does need his own mini mythal just to keep the apples fresh and save from vermin.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:52 PM	800 apples is much but how many apples does a elf need in a year? How about 700 (two apples a day)? That is imo a very optimistic estimation. And lets say that with magic a apple tree produces enough apples worth 2x its normal harvest each year so 1600 apples. That would mean you would need a little bit less than 1 tree for every 2 elves. So for a large city with 50.000 elves that means they need 25.000 trees. Assuming there's no Mythal, and assuming that's their ONLY form of food. And now for the things you usually tend to ignore. Those apples also have to be stored somewhere. Each harvest would yeild 20 million apples. Good luck storing that somewhere. I guess every household (assuming 5 persons per house) has a storage space for 3500 apples. Whats the volume of a typical apple (you know the magically enhanced ones). And that is not all. Apples don't stay fresh very long. So everys household apple storage needs to be enchanted so that the apples do not rot and keep vermin out. Looks like every house does need his own mini mythal just to keep the apples fresh and save from vermin. Why in the world would you harvest them all at once? That being said: permanently enchanted magical storage and freshness, like Bags of Holding. Done.
Lord Karsus 05-14-07, 02:01 PM	-Well, wait a second, Derren. I thought you were of the mind that Elves didn't need to eat, and that they survived on photosynthesis? Conceded on that point?
Derren S. 05-14-07, 02:02 PM	Assuming there's no Mythal, and assuming that's their ONLY form of food. So, what would the Mythal do? Increase the yield even more? Hardly. And it is also very unlikely that an elf can survive with 2 apples a day and stay healthy. So those apples would be in addition to the other food. Why in the world would you harvest them all at once? Because apples don't stay on the trees for an unlimited amount of time? How long is the timespan the apples stay edible before they fall off the trees and start rotting? That being said: permanently enchanted magical storage and freshness, like Bags of Holding. Bag of Holdings do not keep things in stasis. The apples would still rot. Next try please. -Well, wait a second, Derren. I thought you were of the mind that Elves didn't need to eat, and that they survived on photosynthesis? Conceded on that point? Thats what Ed Greenwood said, not me. And if you haven't noticed, I don't care much if someone gives elves new powers in order to justify their broken society. Does the PHB say that they need less food than the other races (like it says for halflings)? No? Then they don't.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:11 PM	The Mythal would make it so that the Elves didn't even NEED to eat 2 apples per day. And so, you research a slightly different version of bag of holding which prevents things from rotting. Done. Does the PHB say that they need less food than the other races (like it says for halflings)? No? Then they don't. Does the PHB talk about Evermeet or Moon Elves or the like, or Mythals or Elven High Magic? They all still exist, as evidenced in the various FR material. The PHB applies to CORE D&D, not FR, specifically. If you don't like that, take it up with WotC.
The Ubbergeek 05-14-07, 02:13 PM	And so, Ed should not be always taken at face value.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:16 PM	Or - he should, depending on who you are.
The Ubbergeek 05-14-07, 02:19 PM	Or - he should, depending on who you are. Eh, he is not perfect, and somes of his ideas can be... far-fetched, questionable, need more thinking, and all. Perhaps it's a lacking aspect of his grand creation there, that could be improved.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:24 PM	Again, all of those opinions are based on the individual. But it still should be noted that unless overwritten by a more recent WotC-published book, his words are canon. Whether we choose to accept his words or not for our personal games is completely up to, well, us. But that does not change canon.
Derren S. 05-14-07, 02:25 PM	The Mythal would make it so that the Elves didn't even NEED to eat 2 apples per day. And so, you research a slightly different version of bag of holding which prevents things from rotting. A, yes. Somehow they are able to do it although nothing like this exists. Unless you give at least a idea how, with which spell, method or item, the elves would be able to do that I take this answer as "The elves can't do it but I will not admit it". Does the PHB talk about Evermeet or Moon Elves or the like, or Mythals or Elven High Magic? They all still exist, as evidenced in the various FR material. The PHB applies to CORE D&D, not FR, specifically. If you don't like that, take it up with WotC. Lets see what the FRCS says about Moon and Sun elves. Racial Abilities: Same as PHB and I also can't see a change in the equipment section where the size/weight/price of trail rations for elves get reduced.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:29 PM	A, yes. Somehow they are able to do it although nothing like this exists. Unless you give at least a idea how, with which spell, method or item, the elves would be able to do that I take this answer as "The elves can't do it but I will not admit it". You can make new spells in D&D, and new items. How do you think all of those new spells and items printed in the sourcebooks over the years were made? Again, Faerun was made with this dynamic in mind. If you can't accept that, then nothing you argue about FR is going to make any sense in retrospect. Lets see what the FRCS says about Moon and Sun elves. Racial Abilities: Same as PHB and I also can't see a change in the equipment section where the size/weight/price of trail rations for elves get reduced. If you're happy playing your game with solely two books in mind, then that's cool. However, that doesn't make your opinion right. It just means your resources are unnecessarily restricted.
Derren S. 05-14-07, 02:39 PM	If you're happy playing your game with solely two books in mind, then that's cool. However, that doesn't make your opinion right. It just means your resources are unnecessarily restricted. Ok, then tell me the book I overlook which says that elves need much less food than other medium humanoids. I'm waiting. (And yes, such things are important enough to be mentioned in the racial description. See dragonlance Draconians. There the authors included this information as special ability). It might be a shock to you, but when I play a PnP RPG with multiple rule books about a setting out there I tend to build my gaming world according to the books and not according to what some guy says on Candlekeep. I can and do make personal adjustments according my personal taste, but the framework is in the setting books and sadly this framework is flawed with logical inconsitencies. The elven society is one of them.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:47 PM	It might be a shock to you, but when I play a PnP RPG with multiple rule books about a setting out there I tend to build my gaming world according to the books and not according to what some guy says on Candlekeep. I can and do make personal adjustments according my personal taste, but the framework is in the setting books and sadly this framework is flawed with logical inconsitencies. The elven society is one of them. Obviously, when presented with multiple forms of canon - including those which aren't in rulebooks - we build our frameworks differently. You don't have to include them, but that just means your world will make even less sense. Why you would want to purposefully NOT include clarifying information is beyond me, but it's your game. Play the world as illogically as you want.
ShadezofDis 05-14-07, 02:51 PM	Still waiting on a specific example. What elven settlements are subject to this "Elves can't produce enough food" problem?
Stigger 05-14-07, 03:57 PM	Actually, I think Boda's point was that the elven economy and normal state of life would be compromised by a war, and operate at a significantly reduced level. That would be true of any society in a state of war, as resources for a war effort are generally given the highest priority in allocation, so civilian uses would be at reduced levels, which means the economy is hampered. Sure they have a lot of spellcasters to spare by all accounts, but how many of them are carrying at least a few battle spells, just in case? That means fewer spells going to economic production, so their non-defense magical capacity is effectively reduced, despite still technically having the same numbers available. At least I think that was his point.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 03:59 PM	If you just wouldn't ignore the other problems... 800 apples is much but how many apples does a elf need in a year? Derren, the thing that frustrates me with you is that I suspect you are less interested at finding the answers behind your questions/conundrums than you are interested in simply arguing for arguing's sake. I mentioned a way one could theoretically create an abundance of food. Your response? To take simply what is offered at face value and, without investing any imagination or forward thought, attempt to deconstruct it so as to prove a point. In some cases, you even jump-start with data that is horribly contrived--if for no other reason than because you believe it will thus better further your argument. Case in point, your examples about food requirements and the associated labor. But you know what? I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's have at it again. First, you assume a city of 50,000 individuals. Why? Do you know what the single largest city of elves in mainland Faerun is? Evereska--with just over 21,000 individuals. Evereska is the exception, though, and the rest of the predominately elven communities detailed in the FRCS have populations of between 700-1400 individuals. Some might be larger--but not by much. We'd know of them. Most will, in fact, be smaller. We know this because Green Elves (and many Moon Elves) are nomadic, and Copper Elves don't make large communities. Now that we have size out of the way, the first sensical question to ask would be what *kind* of community is this? Different communities have different needs. For example, a nomadic Green Elf tribe of 100-200 individuals will have a different mindset and needs than, say, a Sun Elf-built city of a thousand. The latter, I believe, is at the heart of discussion. Beyond that, we have to look at who makes up the population. How many mages are there in these Sun Elf/Moon Elf cities? How about clerics? How about druids? So on, so forth. Where did all these elves come from? Is this a young community? An old community? Does it find its origins in ancient, established houses, or is it predominately a community of "commoners"? Finally, what is the relationship of the community in question with the surrounding world? Do they utilize portals of elfgates to maintain a necessary rapport with other elf communities--or even Evermeet itself? Do they maintain links with friendly non-elf states as some do in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and/or the Dalelands? These are only some of the questions you have to ask to paint a proper picture of how an elf community works and what it needs. Thus far, some of the posters here have offered a few examples that work in with the examples above. If you feel like continuing this, please let me know, and I'll go off of the above.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 04:02 PM	Actually, I think Boda's point was that the elven economy and normal state of life would be compromised by a war, and operate at a significantly reduced level. That would be true of any society in a state of war, as resources for a war effort are generally given the highest priority in allocation, so civilian uses would be at reduced levels, which means the economy is hampered. Sure they have a lot of spellcasters to spare by all accounts, but how many of them are carrying at least a few battle spells, just in case? That means fewer spells going to economic production, so their non-defense magical capacity is effectively reduced, despite still technically having the same numbers available. At least I think that was his point. He still has offered no concrete examples on how this would happen.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 04:06 PM	Phil, you should know that Derren doesn't actually allow innovation or imagination into his games. Only what's printed in the books, including spells. ;) I guess those Epic Spell Seeds are a big waste to him.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 04:08 PM	Ok, then tell me the book I overlook which says that elves need much less food than other medium humanoids. I'm waiting. (And yes, such things are important enough to be mentioned in the racial description. See dragonlance Draconians. There the authors included this information as special ability). Name the book that describes how Dwarves get their food, Derren. The fact of the matter is that there is a plethora of information that has never made it into any sourcebook or supplement. You're being obstinate for the sake of carrying on an argument. I don't get it. It might be a shock to you, but when I play a PnP RPG with multiple rule books about a setting out there I tend to build my gaming world according to the books and not according to what some guy says on Candlekeep. I can and do make personal adjustments according my personal taste, but the framework is in the setting books and sadly this framework is flawed with logical inconsitencies. The elven society is one of them. That would be fine if that "guy... on Candlekeep" wasn't the actualy creator of the game world and the accepted, paid, consulted creative authority behind the lion's share of the material that's available for sale. The joke of the matter if the WotC couldn't *afford* to ever print all of the material he has, and much of what you're arguing about is material most gamers wouldn't care to *pay* for. Finally, there are of course logical inconsistencies. Like any human labor, it's is subject to failing and flaws. Unfortunately, most of the "errors" you're focused on are of the most dismissible sort--if they are errors at all to begin with.
MarkusTay63 05-14-07, 04:18 PM	Don't wanna get involved with this one, I gave up arguments when I let the last one get the best of me (the argument, not you guys :P ). One thing though, I vaguely remember something about the Elven 'photosynthesis thing', but forget the details. It was awhile ago, and I don't feel like going back through the entire thread trying to find answers. But...... Saying they get part of their 'nutrition' from the sun wouldn't be all that far fetched, except for the lack of green pigment in their skin tone (chlorophil). That is easily explained though, since chlorophil is a 'flora', not a 'fauna' thing, and the Elves could have a completely different circulatory system then humans (which would actually be both realistic and kinda cool). I remember someone making a comment in another thread about "Elves tanning in reverse", which really ties in well with certain canon lore. The more sun an elf gets, the 'brighter and healthier' his skin looks. The less sun he gets the more 'unhealthy' his skin becomes, eventually leading to near-dead blackish look (Drow). This would mean Drow would need MORE food then, say, an Avariel or a Moon Elf, which would go a long way to explaining why the 2e DotU says they eat each other in times of hardship. :yuck: And if a 'Faerie Elf' stands in one place too long he/she may just take root. Could be an interesting explanation for certain plant species, as well as creatures like Dryads (although I worked out where they come from in another thread). FR is like an Onion...... ;)
Stigger 05-14-07, 04:18 PM	He still has offered no concrete examples on how this would happen. Most of human history, extrapolated to apply to elves, would probably point to the likelihood of it happening. If you fight a war, a significant portion of your resources are going to be put towards fighting that war, particularly on the scale of a city-state. That's going to by necessity mean that the economy is going to suffer at least somewhat as resources and production capacity are shifted from commercial to military endeavors. Its hard to imagine that not being true of all but the largest and wealthiest of nations, regardless of race. By the by, it does indeed state that elves need less food in the Complete Book of Elves for 2e, though not much on to what degree that is, and as nothing has contradicted that in 3.x that I'm aware of, it should still apply.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 04:23 PM	I'm a masochist when it comes to this sort of thing, Dan...
GothicDan 05-14-07, 04:25 PM	You are. I salute you, sirrah.
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 04:26 PM	Most of human history, extrapolated to apply to elves, would probably point to the likelihood of it happening. If you fight a war, a significant portion of your resources are going to be put towards fighting that war, particularly on the scale of a city-state. That's going to by necessity mean that the economy is going to suffer at least somewhat as resources and production capacity are shifted from commercial to military endeavors. Its hard to imagine that not being true of all but the largest and wealthiest of nations, regardless of race. That's simply a generalization, though. There's no reason too assume that this would hold true for any number of situations. Would you say that a "significant portion of [our] resources" is invested in the War on Terrorism?
Stigger 05-14-07, 04:30 PM	Yes, I would actually, considering the amount of debt we're racking up over it, though not to an excessive degree... besides that, we are that largest and wealthiest of nations exception I noted up there. ;)
Philalexandros 05-14-07, 04:45 PM	Cost doesn't really count in this sense. Elves don't maintain an economic system like ours. The fact of the matter is that the primary resource expended during the course of elven warfare is personnel. They don't pay out gold for each and every teleportation, fireball, or divination spell. Some spells might come with an associated cost of their own, but it's hardly comparable. In many/most cases, the cost of material components/focii is negligible. By contrast, the US expends more $$$ than the GNP of most nations just to pay the regular wages of its troops.
ShadezofDis 05-14-07, 04:59 PM	We're slippin a bit here guys, I think it'd behoove us to keep the debate specific to actual elven realms and the issues faced by those realms (ie. the "problems") Otherwise, well, we'll keep going in circles.
Stigger 05-14-07, 06:10 PM	I'll admit I'm not exactly an expert on the subject, but how exactly do we come up with the cost being mostly personal? My understanding of warfare is that it generally is an expensive thing, particularly during the general technological period we're speaking of. Arrows are expended and need to be replaced, armor is damaged and needs repairing, much as swords do... presumably the elves would require at least a somewhat increased caloric intake due to the physical strains of fighting... that requires resources, resources that would normally be spent on the general economy, and which aren't available now... how would that not affect an economy?
MarkusTay63 05-14-07, 06:49 PM	Strangely, I'd have to side with Phil on this one. :eek: The Elven culture being what it is, Elves don't form armies in the conventional sense. Every Elf has skills which lend themselves to warfare, such as scouting (rogues, rangers), spell-casting (Wizards, Sorecerors), and of course fighting (fighters, maybe Barbarians for wild Elves). You have support troops, like priests, who could act as both MASH units and back-up casters. In human society, those character types are the heroes, weather NPCs or PCs. I get the impression that Elves all fall into one of the standard PC classes, rather then those (abysmal) NPC classes in the DMG. An Elf may be a merchant by trade, but after a few hundred years he's probably one helluva fighter besides. I'd like to think Elves fit better with the 2e rules, when every NPC was a PC class and could take a 'Kit'. A Character class is who you are, not what you do for a living. So, that being said (in way too many words), Individual Elves have their own equipment, including weapons, armor, etc, whereas human armies would have to be provided for. Elves don't need uniforms to match like humans, because they know who the 'bad guys' are. Humans don't have that luxury, most of the time they're fighting other humans. Elves do not need the extensive training and drilling required of standing armies, because they operate better as individuals or in groups of two or three, hence saving again on bases and other training facilities. Elves would also be better equipped to 'forage' for food, also lessening the strain on the Elvish economy. And one last thing - Elves stick together usually and have a 'Zionistic' approach to life. When Elves go to war, families will send whatever food they have to the front to help in any way they can. The typical human farmer (w/pitchfork #2) will hide his stores in the root celler, away from where the army might 'commandeer it' for the war effort. The farmer may be a loyal citizen of his country, but he's gonna put his family first. Elves won't, and would gladly make such sacrifices for the greater good. They're just stupid that way. :P
Kelmech_Ra 05-14-07, 07:54 PM	But if elves never formed actual armies they would have been swept away long ago for lack of organized resistance. Elves are great fighters and spellcasters, but if they only fought as disorganized groups they would be eliminated one group at a time. That is why I think elves would have to form armies in a traditional sense; to concentrate their strength so they won't be eliminated piecmeal by larger, more organized armies.
MarkusTay63 05-14-07, 08:49 PM	But that is why they were stuck with 'the Retreat'... their tactics do not work effectively in the open. They are better at defending then attacking, and prefer to fight in woodlands where their skills make up for their numbers. Even during the Crown wars, most of Faerûn was covered with forests. Hit-and-run guerilla tactics are much more effective with heavy cover like that. It would be too hard to fight in formations in the type of settings Elves usually found themselves fighting in. When the woods started to all disappear, they wound up in 'Retreat'. The tactics Elves would most often employ are those any group would use when faced with a numerically superior force. The Russians obliterated the Germans using much the same system, using the elements and terrain to their advantage and forcing a German Route.
Kelmech_Ra 05-14-07, 08:57 PM	But that is why they were stuck with 'the Retreat'... their tactics do not work effectively in the open. They are better at defending then attacking, and prefer to fight in woodlands where their skills make up for their numbers. Even during the Crown wars, most of Faerûn was covered with forests. Hit-and-run guerilla tactics are much more effective with heavy cover like that. It would be too hard to fight in formations in the type of settings Elves usually found themselves fighting in. When the woods started to all disappear, they wound up in 'Retreat'. The tactics Elves would most often employ are those any group would use when faced with a numerically superior force. The Russians obliterated the Germans using much the same system, using the elements and terrain to their advantage and forcing a German Route. Good points, but with the Retreat, dare I say this, possibly coming to and end, warfare such as in the Last Mythal trilogy may be what is coming for the elves. If they want to hold onto their remaining lands, and even take back some of what was once theirs, they'll have to form regular armies and start defeating their enemies in the open, and perhaps go on the offensive and invade their enemies heartlands to destory their powerbase. Once they defeat a few armies in the field, their enemies will be much less willing to attack elvish lands.
msatran 05-14-07, 10:53 PM	FLAW!!!! This places the burden of defeating the Zhentarim squarely on the shoulders of the elves. I say to you this as someone who has GMed the same FR world for 20 years with multiple groups of characters, tons of memorable villains, and hordes of players. That is dramatically inappropriate. It's fallacious, poor thinking, and stupid. The problem with Myth Drannor reclaimed, with defeating the Zhentarim in a bunch of novels, with Tchazzar returned, all that other stuff is this: The turnover rate on characters and plots, especially massive military movements, has become so high that PC's can't do or achieve anything. Reclaiming Myth Drannor should have been a mission for your PC's. Defeating the Zhentarim should be a mission for your PC's. Blowing up Tchazzar (Ludicrously easy for a CR 40 creature because orb spells exist and his touch AC is 6) is a mission for your PCs. What's the point of publishing all this lore if the PC's continuously get screwed and find themselves unable to face off against whatever enemy out of all this lore the DM has selected because some Torquemonkey decided to write a novel about it? I had to rewrite the motivations for half the NPCs in my game as soon as Farthest Reach came out. And I'm the type of customer that Wizards is supposed to work hard to cultivate. I buy 2 copies of every book, once per year, I buy a realms sourcebook for my entire group, just to make sure they have it. So now the responsibility for dealing with the Zhentarim is no longer the problem of the Dalesfolk, but instead, the elves. I hope the Zhents butcher every single one of them.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 10:56 PM	Don't blame the Elves due to one author's decisions, Msatran! *Sad.*
The Ubbergeek 05-14-07, 11:03 PM	The world don't resolve around the pc in ANY campaign, usually. And it don't stay static as you play. Don't hate the elves, they did what they did as the setting is alive, not dead. They won't wait for the heroes to act up, really; isn't that a lesson of many works of fiction, from Lord of the Rings to Fist of the North Star? Take your own destiny in hands, you can make a change?
Alediran 05-14-07, 11:36 PM	I hope the Zhents butcher every single one of them. If the Zhents couldn't win against peacefull human settlers, less they'll be able to fight against the might of the elves. And BTW, I'm DMing a campaign that revolves around a group of Tel'Quessir who, if they are deemed worty (it means if they survive City of the Spider Queen), will be part of the Elven Crusade, they may even discover the Warblade, the Artblade and one of Demron's Baneblades and wield them. A true DM can make a good history with whatever he has to work with.
MarkusTay63 05-15-07, 12:05 AM	Good points, but with the Retreat, dare I say this, possibly coming to and end, warfare such as in the Last Mythal trilogy may be what is coming for the elves.You caught my point EXACTLY. After thousands of years, the Elves are FINALLY learning some new tricks. They must of realized that races living 1/10 as long as they were far more successful in expanding their domains. It just saddens me that the Elves are becoming too human in Fantasy. There's not much 'fantastical' about them anymore, aside from the pointy ears. A true DM can make a good history with whatever he has to work with.Truer words are rarely spoken. ;) I even made the ToT work for ME, instead of the other way around. Don't think of the novels as the 'end-all, be-all', think of them as a springboard for more 'epic' play. Not that I 'do' Epic mind you, but I let the 'big stuff' happen in the background, while my PCs get the important little jobs done that keeps the wheels rolling. PCs don't have to fight in a war (that must be a nightmare to DM), but they can be couriers trying to get important tactical information to the front lines. They don't need to stop a Thayan Elncave... but they can warn the kidnap victim of the plot before it happens, and perhaps get them out of there... Take the big stuff, and figure out what 'little things' had to have led up to it. If only so-and-so had been stopped BEFORE crossing that bridge, etc... you get the idea. Your the DM, YOU rule the world, it doesn't rule YOU.
Derren S. 05-15-07, 04:28 AM	A interesting flame Dan. Now would you stop to hide behind insults and sarcasm when you have nothing to say and instead say something with substance (or do you need Ed to answer for you?) or just shut up? What frustrates me is that you and Phil that you two say that the elven society makes sense as displayed in the books and novels but in the same post say that I have to invent something to make it work. When I have to invent (a great many of) things so that the elven society makes sense, then it is obvious that the society as printed does not make sense. You know that too but you do not want to admit it. As for your "comment" about I not allowing innovations, speak for yourself. After all you are the one who is so dependand on Ed to change things for you. When I DM I change a great deal of things, but unlike you I do not force my changes upon others by saying that it is intended to work this way and that this changes are mandatory. And unlike you I do not invent powers to make the broken society work, I change the society to fit the availiable powers (but again I do not use my version of the elven society to argue on this board). And before you ask what I want with this discussion. I want that you realize that the realms is not perfect and that the elven society does need changes to make it work. Only then those changes can be discussed. So far you block every discussion by saying "The society works. Ed said it. Everything else is wrong". Reclaiming Myth Drannor should have been a mission for your PC's. Defeating the Zhentarim should be a mission for your PC's. Blowing up Tchazzar (Ludicrously easy for a CR 40 creature because orb spells exist and his touch AC is 6) is a mission for your PCs. Is Tchazzar dead already? That was a short appearance.
ShadezofDis 05-15-07, 08:01 AM	What frustrates me is that you and Phil that you two say that the elven society makes sense as displayed in the books and novels but in the same post say that I have to invent something to make it work. I didn't read anything of the kind in their posts. They have said that you COULD invent new spells, you COULD, not have too. Again, NAME ONE SPECIFIC SOCIETY THAT DOESN'T WORK. Let's actually talk about something, rather than this stupid debate about generalities. And unlike you I do not invent powers to make the broken society work, I change the society to fit the availiable powers (but again I do not use my version of the elven society to argue on this board). And before you ask what I want with this discussion. I want that you realize that the realms is not perfect and that the elven society does need changes to make it work. Only then those changes can be discussed. So far you block every discussion by saying "The society works. Ed said it. Everything else is wrong". Define broken, give an example, you still have not "proved" your case. At all. So please, for the love of D&D, just give some examples. Anyone.
Philalexandros 05-15-07, 08:39 AM	But if elves never formed actual armies they would have been swept away long ago for lack of organized resistance. I beg to differ. I woul posit that Cormanthyr is a perfect example of why this didn't happen. The massed ranks of traditional armies simply don't fare well aganst, e.g., evocative magic. It's why we (in the real world) don't march massed ranks against field artillery and the like anymore. Given the experience of the average (lvl 1d6+2 fighter) soldier and (1d6+2 wizard/sorcerer) mage, it's not hard to conceive how Cormanthyr beat powerhouses like Sembia. The problem with Faerun is that not all nations are along the same line of development. Elven society ARRIVED at Faerun in an advanced state, and has only progressed since. SOME human societies are very old and would have moved on from archaic modes of warfare (Halruaa strikes me as such a place), but others either don't care to or are "bogged down" by the lowest common denominator (SOME of the Silver Marches' partners are probably conventional/backward; others aren't). Elves are great fighters and spellcasters, but if they only fought as disorganized groups they would be eliminated one group at a time. Who said they would be disorganized? If anything, their spellcasters/items would enable them to act a higher level of coordination than even the more advanced conventional armies (see Brian Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War" for the more advanced concepts of signalling and communications used by 1,000-1,500 year old war systems). If anything, massing together would only make for expeditious targets for enemy archers, who could mass for volleys, or for the charge of heavy cavalry.
Philalexandros 05-15-07, 08:43 AM	What frustrates me is that you and Phil that you two say that the elven society makes sense as displayed in the books and novels but in the same post say that I have to invent something to make it work. Gah! I never said anything of the sort! Derren, are you reading what I'm saying? I started our debate in the last threat because I didn't think the way the elves' warmaking was represented was in any way realistic. Beyond that, what I've done is point out aspects of their society IN CANON MATERIAL that make my point regarding how they could wage war/accomplish things for them. I mean, you want to talk inventing? Yes, I did come up with some ideas for food-making spells off the top of my head. I did so with clear conscience because it's ludicrous to assume that the length and breadth of the Faerunian spell inventory is represented in the published books. This is because (A) new spells arrive all the time in new books without their necessary being "new" and (B) because spells in gaming products are predominately geared for combat and/or adventuring. I am absolutely certain that there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of cantrips, minor spells and major incantations that are used for purely "civilian" purposes. You on the other hand want elves to basically be a mirror-image of humanity in terms of labor distribution and work types... presumably so you can rail about how that wouldn't be possible to begin with in a woodland scenario. *That's* unrealistic, Derren.
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 09:30 AM	-Dis, don't have a stroke! :)
ShadezofDis 05-15-07, 09:52 AM	-Dis, don't have a stroke! :) I'm trying real hard to avoid such a circumstance. ;) However, I do think this is motivating me to write up a couple of elven settlements, just so that there is something concrete to be talking about :D
Stigger 05-15-07, 10:10 AM	Hadn't heard anything about Tchazzar buying it either... :blink: As to the rest, its bogging down pretty badly. Suppose I'll just chalk it up to friction.
MarkusTay63 05-15-07, 12:11 PM	Hadn't heard anything about Tchazzar buying it either... :blink:Now THAT just pi$$es me off!!! :headexplo Plothooks are for PLAYERS, NOT for unimaginative AUTHORS. Go find your OWN ideas, ya' buncha lame-O's. :rant: Rant over. I just wished they would just stop bothering to give us stuff if they're just gonna take it away again. Sometimes I think its just another way of filling the MEESLY 160 pages. :( Back to the topic - I do see problems with Elven society as written, but all of them are 'fixed' by extrapolating on the material. I know Derren and Dis don't like that approach, but if you really think about it ALL of the other society's would have the same kind of problems. Elves are Omnivores, but I picture their diet being much closer to that of Gorillas. They eat mostly fruit, vegetables, and legumes, and maybe supplement that with a termite hill every once in awhile. Sounds gross? They are NOT HUMAN, remember? We don't need to know they eat bugs (if they even do), because it has very little relevancy on the game. Thats what all those CK threads are for - to find out how people wipe their a_s in FR! We don't NEED to know those things to play the game; those are the day-to-day trivial details. 1e used to include quite a few spells that no adventurer would take. They were pure fluff, meant to explain certain IG things (like "What do they eat?"). 2e had a little of that going on, especially toward the beginning, but then it was fazed out. I don't really see any of those types of spells in 3e (but I'm sure there are one or two), because we DON'T NEED THEM. It is assumed that many spells exist that clean our clothes, and improve the size of our crops, and 'take notes for us' as we dictate, and yes, even to wipe our butts. If you want to see those types of spells go through some of the older books. I enjoyed them for the fluff value, but I really haven't missed them at all. Just because something isn't printed in B&W (and we ALL have been down this road before), don't assume it doesn't exist. Dwarves are probably the WORST offenders! Many of their realms aren't near the surface, or even trade with the surface. In fact, before their first appearance in -12,000 DR they lived entirely in the Yehimal range. Now, I got just one question for you: How the hell do Dwarves like beer so much when ALL of the ingredients must be grown in sunlight?! How do they eat meat? (which they LOVE BTW, unlike Elves) If they have massive Rothe herds, do you have any idea how bad their caverns would smell? I've been to real cow farms, and even with fresh air and a breeze it's still enough to make you gag. Except for perhaps the halflings, who are really nothing more then short humans, the rest of the societies are BROKEN. but in every case, I can come up with HUNDREDS of reasons to fix the problems. So if I can, so can everyone else. Is it really neccessary to print every instance of "Filmarril's Burp Baby" spell? Now lets talk about how BROKEN the entire legal system is. If a human has consensual sex with a 40 year old Elf Girl, is it statutory rape? If a group of adventurers kill a good aligned Metallic Dragon and take its Horde, would they be committing murder? Personally, I don't really need to know that, but in a fantasy world one must assume that there are 'fixes' for all these problems in the BACKGROUND. If I wanted rules about mundane matters, I'd read an instructional manual.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 12:41 PM	Though I'd note that some of us probably WOULD buy a book that had such things in it, Markus. I'd find it far more interesting than a lot of the stuff that's currently being printed. ;) In particular, legal proceedings would be more useful if I ever ran a campaign (stupid school).
ShadezofDis 05-15-07, 12:52 PM	Back to the topic - I do see problems with Elven society as written, but all of them are 'fixed' by extrapolating on the material. I know Derren and Dis don't like that approach, but if you really think about it ALL of the other society's would have the same kind of problems. I don't? Perhaps you've got your names wrong my man. Now lets talk about how BROKEN the entire legal system is. If a human has consensual sex with a 40 year old Elf Girl, is it statutory rape? If a group of adventurers kill a good aligned Metallic Dragon and take its Horde, would they be committing murder? Personally, I don't really need to know that, but in a fantasy world one must assume that there are 'fixes' for all these problems in the BACKGROUND. If I wanted rules about mundane matters, I'd read an instructional manual. The legal system isn't broken. . . the legal system is in fact a misnomer as there isn't one legal system, there are thousands, most of them being "I have a sword, I can kill you, therefor what I say is law" (in the "less civilized" areas) As for your examples; Situation A) AFAIK there aren't many laws about statutory rape in the Realms, I know that it is generally frowned upon and I can certainly see elves hunting down the human and killing him but I don't think there would be much in the way of legal trappings associated with the hunting and slaying of the human. Situation B) Only if the dragon were a legal entity of the kingdom trying to pursue such a "crime". Good, metalic dragons aren't generally viewed as kind and loving by the typical peasent, they're terribly dangerous monsters. However, this impression varies depending upon the exact situation. (ie. if the dragon has been a recluse for the past few centuries then the surounding peoples, assuming they are not elves, wouldn't really know about the dragon per say. If the dragon is an active member of the community, aiding the people and showing a kind and loving side then I would say the community would try to exact revenge for the slaying of the dragon, of course this desire for revenge would be tempered by the fact that the PCs DID kill the dragon and are very intimidating due to this) However, in the end, I very much want this information (and extrapolate upon the information provided quite a bit) because I run my game in, what I view, a more realistic manner. The situations the PCs find themselves in have direct roots, most times, in economical factors and I have a very hard time putting together an economic model for places in the Realms due to the ability of certain individuals to effect these economic models in a drastic way. Phew.
ShadezofDis 05-15-07, 12:56 PM	Though I'd note that some of us probably WOULD buy a book that had such things in it, Markus. I'd find it far more interesting than a lot of the stuff that's currently being printed. ;) In particular, legal proceedings would be more useful if I ever ran a campaign (stupid school). haha I'd find a "Legal workings in the Realms" book MUCH more useful than many of the books I've purchased. Hell, I'd probably spend a good chunk of money on such a volume.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 01:09 PM	Me, too! And I'm one of them "poor college students"!
Alediran 05-15-07, 01:11 PM	It's one of the best ways to punish unruly players who are ruleslawyers, if it's in the book, they can't complain.
MarkusTay63 05-15-07, 01:56 PM	I give a perfectly good example of what we don't need in FR, and you guys f__k it up. :nonono: I think if I ever saw Laws of the Realms on the product calender I'd go RUNNING to Eberron. ;) My joke about that spell had me thinking about creating an Elven Nanny PrC though... go figure. I don't? Perhaps you've got your names wrong my man.Sorry, I only started reading this stuff on this page. I refused to join it earlier because I was already arguiing a point in other threads. From the quick glance I gave it, it appeared you were agreeing with Derren as far as people 'making up their own reasons' behind things. My apologies.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 01:58 PM	Hey! Law is kind of cool! Not as cool as physics, though. I'd love to see some physics equations for FR. ;)
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 02:10 PM	He isa right a bit, though. It's a bit pedant to really obsess over such more fluff details... which can be imagined by dm. My answer is MSU, when needed - Make Stuff Up.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 02:15 PM	Some of us LIKE those details, though. And I don't mind being a pedant!
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 02:18 PM	Some of us LIKE those details, though. And I don't mind being a pedant! But such inclinaisons intimidate newcommers and some guys who prefers to MSU. The Forgotten Realms should have left some blanks, some less detailed things.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 02:21 PM	Maybe. I, personally, like as much detail as possible. There's thousands of things about FR that I wish we had detail on.
Alediran 05-15-07, 02:37 PM	I'm with GD on this. Please more fluff, I don't have enough.
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 02:40 PM	The problem is that FR is often danting, intimidating with the sheer quantity of fluff for newcommers. And by newcommers, I don't means just noobs. It's nice and all, but it may start to be a problem for many - hence why the popularity of Eberron, a setting where the fluff allow additions and interpretations, and is quite light.
msatran 05-15-07, 02:41 PM	No, Tchazzar didn't die. He's just pathetically easy to whack for a CR 40. He doesn't have any of the suppress or remove weakness feats, so you just Empowered Twinned Orb of Cold him to death. If you go before him (And at the level where you should be fighting a creature like this, you probably will), your wizard will do something like 291 points of damage to him before he even blinks. He's got a LOT of hit points. But if your wizard is immune to fire, it really doesn't matter what Tchazzar does. Worse, your arcane caster could be a sorcerer. Plus, when every hit forces a fort save, you're looking at a dead dragon. It should only take 3 rounds. Most fights at that level take three rounds. The trick is cornering the big ol cranky dragon in his throne room, where his flight mobility is limited. Let him get off the ground and your PC's will likely die. Oh, and by the way, Alediran, you should read the Novels. Hillsfar=Zhent Puppet. So now they have a brand new horde of desperate people and even more slaves. The only reason they couldn't take Shadowdale before was Elminster, and now he will be GONE. For a while.
Stigger 05-15-07, 02:44 PM	Depends on who's writing the fluff really... and what the slant of it is.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 02:45 PM	What happens if Tchazzar just throws up a few Energy Resistance spells? Or if they're already triggered via a nice contingency. Or, by the same token, if he has a nice Greater Blink contingency going on, whenever he's targeted by an Orb spell. Thus, he uses that one action to automatically dodge any attack (the orb), and simply Blinks out of range (or casts Quickened Dimension Door).
Stigger 05-15-07, 02:46 PM	Shh... don't upset the scenario...
ShadezofDis 05-15-07, 02:48 PM	I give a perfectly good example of what we don't need in FR, and you guys f__k it up. :nonono: He isa right a bit, though. It's a bit pedant to really obsess over such more fluff details... which can be imagined by dm. My answer is MSU, when needed - Make Stuff Up. A book on laws and legal workings would show us how things actually get done in the Realms. It's all well and good to swing a sword about but the best you'll end up doing is killing things, you need laws and legal proceedings to build an actual kingdom. Further, from said laws we could extrapolate a plethora of various information, from relative merchantile power vs noble power of particular regions to what our PCs can and can not get away with in particular areas. Not only those tid bits, but we might finallly be able to see the workings between the churches and various kingdoms. In fact, I feel such information would be FAR more valuable than most regional sourcebooks I've looked at. But, that is just MO. Sorry, I only started reading this stuff on this page. I refused to join it earlier because I was already arguiing a point in other threads. From the quick glance I gave it, it appeared you were agreeing with Derren as far as people 'making up their own reasons' behind things. My apologies. Not a problem, I was arguing for basing the debate on specific settlements rather than generalities because there's been 8 pages of debate over the generalities with no success so I figured if we debated about particular settlements we might actually get somewhere. ;)
ShadezofDis 05-15-07, 02:49 PM	Depends on who's writing the fluff really... and what the slant of it is. Heh, too true my man, too true.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 02:51 PM	The only MAJOR settlements we know of for Elves in any detail would be Cormanthyr. Even those detailed in Evermeet don't use the most up to date rules or the like. So, in general, it's all kind of difficult... One more reason we need an actual Elves of Faerun book printed by WotC. A nicely detailed Elven city, in its full glory, would be awesome.
Derren S. 05-15-07, 02:58 PM	As this discussion has returned to a civilized level how about forgetting the whole "society is broken thing"? Its obvious that everyone is just changing something to "make it fit" be it either change the society to be doable with the known powers&effects (me) or to invent new powers to make the society work (everyone else). So do you want to go back to the elven military discussion or do you want to continue to dream of ultra detailed FR sourcbooks like the Lantan Cookbook Volume MXII with imported Thayan recepies? What happens if Tchazzar just throws up a few Energy Resistance spells? Or if they're already triggered via a nice contingency. Or, by the same token, if he has a nice Greater Blink contingency going on, whenever he's targeted by an Orb spell. Thus, he uses that one action to automatically dodge any attack (the orb), and simply Blinks out of range (or casts Quickened Dimension Door). Sadly Tchazzar has non of those spells. Blame the lazy authors who apparently have no clue of how to stat monsters/npcs so that they survive the encounter with a low level (relativly speaking) adventuring party. They also seem to think that when seeing a red dragon that no other energy types except fire are allowed. And they seem to have forgotten that he could cast cleric spells. At least his Amulet of Supremacy gives him a little boost coupled with breath spells (always maximize spells and breath weapon) Btw why did the authors give him (or rather his hoard) a ring named afther Tchazzar which protects against electricity and not cold? And why isn't it included in his combat gear? Do the authors really expect him to not use the stuff in his hoard in combat? About the Book of Elves, elves are a very touchy subject and while such a book would sell much, the chance to screw something up and to get a horde of angry elf lovers spaming the board and writing mails is rather big. So if such a book comes then probably only at the end of the 3.X era.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 03:01 PM	Bah. Sorcerers are teh sux. *Goes back to watching Transformers.*
Alediran 05-15-07, 04:21 PM	Oh, and by the way, Alediran, you should read the Novels. Hillsfar=Zhent Puppet. So now they have a brand new horde of desperate people and even more slaves. I have a copy of The Last Mythal trilogy from Amazon (I live in Argentina BTW, it's hard to get novels down here, unless they are at least 10 years old and are written by Salvatore). That Super Adventure trilogy stinks of crying noob mails to WotC who play low level evil characters and are tired of loosing their characters in a fight with Elminster just because they made a st**** move against him. It's another one of those bad ideas made to placate a minority of trolls. Me, I'll send them some Delayed Blast Fireballs, trolls are weak against that. Hillsfar was conquered because it's leader made a terrible tactical error, evil is defeated by it's own ego. In years of attacks from Zhentil Keep to Shadowdale Elminster wasn't there every time to help in the defense. During the Last Mythal Trilogy the elves where the ones helping the Dalesfolk, and the attack was so badly executed by the Zhents that they weren't a big difference. During the ToT the Zhents were also defeated by the Dalesfolk, the only thing Elminster did was summon the essence of Mystra to counter Bane. That shows you how impossible can that second part of the adventure trilogy be. The elves have a better force after the end of the war and the Dalelsfolk are good against the Zhents. And I don't buy that Shar hand to Bane, it's not her way.
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 04:31 PM	But it happened. Miracles and true bad luck can happens.
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 04:36 PM	One more reason we need an actual Elves of Faerun book printed by WotC. A nicely detailed Elven city, in its full glory, would be awesome. -I'm working on it, I'm working on it, if by published, you mean a nice PDF, and by WotC, you mean us. :)
Alediran 05-15-07, 04:38 PM	-I'm working on it, I'm working on it, if by published, you mean a nice PDF, and my WotC, you mean us. :) WE are working on it. WE hope it gets published by WotC. :P
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 04:42 PM	WE are working on it. WE hope it gets published by WotC. :P -That's why I said, "Us". ;)
Alediran 05-15-07, 04:44 PM	-That's why I said, "Us". ;) I know, I was making a Borg-like statement.
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 04:48 PM	-Ah, I see. Understandable.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 04:49 PM	I meant WotC, but, you know. ;) I'm in the weird 'I like to have a hard copy of a book' camp.
Alediran 05-15-07, 04:56 PM	I meant WotC, but, you know. ;) I'm in the weird 'I like to have a hard copy of a book' camp. If it get's published, would you buy it?
GothicDan 05-15-07, 05:05 PM	Perhaps. The thing is, I already have access to the vast majority of info you guys are putting together, and I don't care much for new stats of any sort... I'd really only buy books that have a good amount (around 50% or more) of new lore. Though, if it wasn't TOO expensive, and I had some extra cash, there'd be a chance I'd buy it just to support further Elven projects from WotC. :)
Alediran 05-15-07, 06:02 PM	I'm sure that many things will be created after we finish compiling what is already done. After all, you can't create a car from thin air.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 06:06 PM	Oh, I'm sure a lot of fan creations will be made. But I am not sure if anything canon would come out of it. And as someone who really doesn't have enough time to game regularly in real life, I really only try to focus on canon things (and only pay money for canon things). This is why I couldn't imagine reading Eberron novels.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 03:22 AM	Back to elven military. The elven military tactics are imo so hard to develop because elves are very controversal but see below. A forword: I have not read the Last Mythal and do not know how the elves performed with retaking Myth Drannor Elven Advantages: Above average number of wizards Epic wizards above average ranged combat abilities above average initative, AC (common soldier) and Reflex saves Better in detecting ambushes A very large milita Need less sleep Low Light Vision Elven Disadvantages: Lower staying power Alignment split in society lawful<->chaotic low numbers low reproduction rate Typical environment: Forest Very limited line of sight Combustible easy to hide hard to sneak rough terrain Many wild animals/monsters Now for the controversies. As shown above, the elves are very good at ranged combat (including spells) and not so good in melee because of their staying power. Yet the forest where they live in is very bad for ranged combat because the line of sight is very limited. Also spellcasting options are very limited because setting the forest on fire is not what elves (and depending on the goal of teh attacker and the weather circumstances also what the attacker too) want. So spells with the fire and electricity descriptor are suboptimal. ALso it would be very hard to use Wall spells, especially Wall of Force because they have to be unbroken. Another not very effective troop type in forests are cavalry. That, coupled with the terrain means only slow moving speed for both elves and the attacker. Proposed tactics: Because the offensive with ranged weapons in a forest is very hard the elves would probably rely on the enemy to come to them. They would lay ambushes on the way, fire a shot and then run away before the enemy realizes where the shots came from. So they slowly wither away the enemy. At night the elves would do small raids at the enemy encampents using their low light vision to pick their targets (problem: enemies with darvision). With their sleep time of only 4 hours they would try to rob the enemy soldiers of needed sleep to reduce their effectivness. The goal of this delaying tactic depends on the size of the elven comunity. Either they try to give the (high) mages enough time to cast battle winning spells/rituals, delay till reinforcements arrive or when faced with overwhelming opposition to flee. Proposed Unit: Treetop Oupost Platforms build among the treetops of several big trees which stand close together connected with rope bridges. Some of those trees should have a staircase carved inside them with hidden doors or maybe even tunnels. That way the elves can launch attacks from above and when overwhelmed hide inside on of the trees or flee throu the hidden doors, tunnels. The problem is that if the doors are discovered this is a dead trap. Controversy: milita The low reproduction rate of elves means that they are very susceptible to attrition damage. A Orc tribe can after a war completly regenerate in about 30-40 years but elves would need several hundereds for that. That means that the milita would only used as absolute last resort. Likewise the tactics would be more on the cautionous side. A defeted enemy will come back soon. A killed elf will not. So in an optimal circumstance elves would rely on summons to do the actual fighting. If that is not possible they would use their best troops with their best equipment. Most of the time they would flee before sending untrained troops into battle. Elven Troop makeup (imo) - Archer units several archers, one or two arcane archers and a cleric. Maybe one additional full caster (or as arcane archer replacment) - Ambush unit Several archers, one or two bladesingers, a druid/cleric and a rogue (Scout). - Frontline troop Mostly elven troops with chain shirts or mithral breastplates (for speed) and tower shields for maximum defense. Several bladesingers mixed into the troops. Only used in conjunction with archer or mage troops when making a stand. Several clerics - mage unit One or two bladesingers for close range protection, several mages and a handfull of arcane archers one cleric. Optionally also rogues/scouts for delaying tactic/traps. Elves would have no mundane cavalry as those troops are next to unuseable in a forest. They would have a small detachment of flying cavalry for combat outside the forest ridden by archers. As seen, elves are very defensivly focused making entering their forests a death trap. This reputation is one of their main defenses against many intruders. Most elven comunities let monsters freely roam among the outskirts of their forests as long as they do not come too close to the settlement as additional defense against intruders. When an army enters the forest they try to demoralize the enemy with ambushes and then to destroy them with superior magical power. That way they hope to demoralize attackers so much that they won't come back for a long time. Offense: No clue and no time to write something. They are probably not very good with it too.
The Ubbergeek 05-16-07, 03:37 AM	I suggest to look at the warfare history of some real-world groups as inspiration, from the native americans to russians, passing by my own ancestors (I am a quebecker). The elves sure use hit and runs, guerrila tactics, asymetric warfare and such when low intensity. (like the poster above outline better than me)
Aldareth 05-16-07, 03:57 AM	just two points that are wrong forests are not very bad for elven archers , i have the impression that when you say ranged combat you think of something like the britisch longbowmen , but that is by far not they way elves fight in the forest . A limited line of sight work always for the ambusher so thats not a disadvantage. the other point is the frontline troops. you give elves light armor for speed and then burden them with a towershield?! elves will use speed to strike fast & hard and then retreat , they will not hold a line except in the direst of needs ,and if that is the case the fight is probably allready lost.
Kelmech_Ra 05-16-07, 04:56 AM	Those are great defensive tactics for elves, however, defense does not win wars. To win a war a nation needs to go on the offensive and destroy the enemies capibilities to fight. To do this you need conventional styled armies, with lots of mages and clerics thrown in to provide protective spells and to counter enemy magic used. Elves, as previous posters have stated, have an abundance of spellcasters, so there is no reason to think that them marching in battle lines is unrealistic given the magical potential in their spellcasters. (they can counter enemy magic and protect the troops with buffs; also, elven archers should be able to counter enemy mages as well)
Aldareth 05-16-07, 05:39 AM	Thats right for humans, but elves are rarely on the aggression side, so they dont have to go offensive to win a war ( in faerun ), their main concern is to defend their homes . We see what happens when elves went on the offensive in the last mythal trilogie, they suffer almost the same losses as standard human armies in open field battles
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 07:22 AM	What? I don't think you were reading the same books I did. They suffered terrible casualties against DEMONS. Against non-demonic armies, they were cleaning house.
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 07:26 AM	To win a war a nation needs to go on the offensive and destroy the enemies capibilities to fight. To do this you need conventional styled armies, with lots of mages and clerics thrown in to provide protective spells and to counter enemy magic used. You keep saying this, but you've never bothered to back your opinion up. The fact of the matter is that the tactics you propose are little more than 18th-late 19th century European tactics with improved artillery. They expose Elves to unnecessary danger and horrid odds for absolutely no reason. 3,000 soldiers (the number of Akh'Velarn) is 3,000 soldiers. Purposefully marching them to a battlefield en masse to serve as archery targets at a minimum is simply irresponsible.
Aldareth 05-16-07, 07:42 AM	What? I don't think you were reading the same books I did. They suffered terrible casualties against DEMONS. Against non-demonic armies, they were cleaning house. that is why i say most, the elves hesitate to march against the sembians , not because they was afraid to loose the fight but knowing that the loses will maybe make the difference againnst the fey ri. so they will clean up the house at a openfield battle , still the casualties will be by far greater than if they fight the small scale guerilla tatctics that elves in a forest would prefer.
Kelmech_Ra 05-16-07, 07:58 AM	You keep saying this, but you've never bothered to back your opinion up. The fact of the matter is that the tactics you propose are little more than 18th-late 19th century European tactics with improved artillery. They expose Elves to unnecessary danger and horrid odds for absolutely no reason. 3,000 soldiers (the number of Akh'Velarn) is 3,000 soldiers. Purposefully marching them to a battlefield en masse to serve as archery targets at a minimum is simply irresponsible. I'm not saying send in your guys without support and just stand their to die. You send in your men (elves, i guess) with proper magical support (protection against spells/elements/perhaps haste/other buffs, things of that nature). To win a battle you actual have to commit troops, and some troops die, that always happens in war. Not every enemy can be worn down by hit and run tactics. Some enemies need to be met on the field of battle and defeated in detail. I think one reason the elves have had so many problems is that they never completely defeat their enemies. Yes, they destroy their enemies armies, but always defensivly. Evetually the elven defense will not be enough to stop an attack, the elves will perish. To maintain their position they'll have to try to destroy their enemies abilities to attack them. This is just common sense. Besides, the main body of melee troops doesn't have to be committed to suicidal frontal assaults against full strenght enemies. Let wizards archers wear away the enemy for you engage in melee. Melee fighting is what decides wars. Mages can inflict terrible damage, but their are too few of them, and they cannot cast spells all day. There are also ways for elves to counter mages...specialized archer units, ballistae, other war machines, etc.
Kelmech_Ra 05-16-07, 08:02 AM	that is why i say most, the elves hesitate to march against the sembians , not because they was afraid to loose the fight but knowing that the loses will maybe make the difference againnst the fey ri. so they will clean up the house at a openfield battle , still the casualties will be by far greater than if they fight the small scale guerilla tatctics that elves in a forest would prefer. Its true that they'll suffer casualties, but I don't think the elves are in danger of becoming extinct. Evermeet has what, over a million of elves? I know they can't replace their losses as fast as other races, but if they don't want to fight a new army invading their territory every decade or too, they're going to need to suck up the losses and completely destroy their enemies abilities to attack. They could also form alliances with friendly human realms such as Cormyr and Waterdeep to help absorb some of the casualties. Hell, they could even hire out entire tribes of humanoids as mercenaries to fight against their brethren if they wanted.
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 08:30 AM	A forword: I have not read the Last Mythal and do not know how the elves performed with retaking Myth Drannor You really should. I think it would dispell a lot of the misconceptions you have about their abilities. Elven Advantages: I would add ... 1) ... significantly higher quality soldiers. 1d6+2 lvl fighters for the average soldier? I've never seen this matched in any other product. I would posit only Dwarves produce equivalent (probably even better in some cases) soldiery. Typical environment: Forest Very limited line of sight Divination Combustible Can easily be mitigated (Control Weather, for example) hard to sneak Depends on your skill; elves don't seem to have trouble with it. Many wild animals/monsters Depends on the forest. Now for the controversies. As shown above, the elves are very good at ranged combat (including spells) and not so good in melee because of their staying power. Yet the forest where they live in is very bad for ranged combat because the line of sight is very limited. I agree. Only limited guerilla warfare would serve the Elves within their forests. It is for this reason that I posit that a *realistic* representation of the Elves would see them fighting their wars *outside* their forests, in ways and with means that suit them--not in tactics that ape what human societies developed. Also spellcasting options are very limited because setting the forest on fire is not what elves (and depending on the goal of teh attacker and the weather circumstances also what the attacker too) want. So spells with the fire and electricity descriptor are suboptimal. It all depends, really. Depending on the climate and the sort of forest, any number of effects could be used. A fireball is an instantaneous, explosive effect. A wall of fire, on the other hand, is a sustained, burning effect. The former of the two would have little chance of setting a green, well-watered forest on fire; the latter would certainly damage the woods in its area of effect, but would not likely spread. Lightning would be a far more preferable effect. Finally, we have Feats that allow one to change the type of energy used by a spell. There's obviously no canon evidence for this, but in my Realms it was a matter of common sense to pain the Elves as a race that either studied "alternative" spells (a "fireball" using a force or sonic effect, for example), or the feat mentioned above. Incidentally, I'm not trying to be a smartass regarding the combustibility of a forest. Anyone familiar with controlled burns, the effects of explosive munitions, and the difference between a "dry" forest and a "wet" forest can attest to the above. ALso it would be very hard to use Wall spells, especially Wall of Force because they have to be unbroken. Out of curiosity, where does it say that? More accurately, where does it say it has to be a straight wall (and not recurved, angled, etc)? Proposed tactics: Because the offensive with ranged weapons in a forest is very hard the elves would probably rely on the enemy to come to them. Why? The goal of this delaying tactic depends on the size of the elven comunity. Either they try to give the (high) mages enough time to cast battle winning spells/rituals, ... One would think they would use said rituals prior to an enemy's arrival... I'll post again with my ideas this evening.
Stigger 05-16-07, 09:17 AM	I'm getting the feeling this is going to head into a debate over the merits and flaws of the defensive warfare versus offensive warfare doctrines... forest terrain tends to favor a defensive doctrine, as manuever warfare is very limited in that environment, which is a rather key element of offensive warfare. Just going off of what I recall of C:EoE, Cormanthyr tended to favor that defensive mode and had a relatively limited number of offensive manuever elements within their military, though the manuever elements they did have tended to be of a particularly powerful variety, The Wing and Horn being prime examples of that.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 09:21 AM	I would add ... 1) ... significantly higher quality soldiers. 1d6+2 lvl fighters for the average soldier? I've never seen this matched in any other product. I would posit only Dwarves produce equivalent (probably even better in some cases) soldiery. I would not. It looks like that because they only use the best soldiers they have but the bulk of elven soldiers are probably as low level as human ones. Its just they don't get used. So it looks like all elven soldiers are high level because they field only champions Divination Divination doesn't normally help with short range line of sights for spellcasting and archery. X-Ray vision might help but the foilage would still block spells and arrows. Can easily be mitigated (Control Weather, for example) Control Weather is a 7th level spell and even for elves such spell slots aren't limitless. Don't forget that it has a long casting time and a 10 minutes delay. The caster also has to be fairly close to the battle to notice it when a fire breaks out. So its not that easy to stop forest fire. Precasting control weather is also a bad idea as rainfall makes archery less effective. Depends on your skill; elves don't seem to have trouble with it. Please no assumption of what things elves are able to do easily. Elves are no (demi) gods and also fail their skill checks from time to time. And it simply is harder to sneak in a forest then otherwise. I agree. Only limited guerilla warfare would serve the Elves within their forests. It is for this reason that I posit that a *realistic* representation of the Elves would see them fighting their wars *outside* their forests, in ways and with means that suit them--not in tactics that ape what human societies developed. But are elves able to do something other than guerilla warfare? They are vastly outnumbered and on open terrain this is much worse than in a forest. When elves get encircled they risk loosing archers and mages. It all depends, really. Depending on the climate and the sort of forest, any number of effects could be used. A fireball is an instantaneous, explosive effect. A wall of fire, on the other hand, is a sustained, burning effect. The former of the two would have little chance of setting a green, well-watered forest on fire; the latter would certainly damage the woods in its area of effect, but would not likely spread. Lightning would be a far more preferable effect. Finally, we have Feats that allow one to change the type of energy used by a spell. There's obviously no canon evidence for this, but in my Realms it was a matter of common sense to pain the Elves as a race that either studied "alternative" spells (a "fireball" using a force or sonic effect, for example), or the feat mentioned above. A fireball also sets combustibles in its area on fire and damages objects. (mentioned in the spell description). Yes such a feat exists but the mages would need to have it. I will later create a list of feats I think elves would take often. Out of curiosity, where does it say that? More accurately, where does it say it has to be a straight wall (and not recurved, angled, etc)? Its in the individual spell description. All walls except Stone and Thorns require you to make a flat vertical plane (sometimes they have a option for making a hemisphere) Why? Imo because when using offensively the elves are the ones who have to move into range and thus lose their ambush advantage. Coupled with the low range bows have in a forest it means that they will likely end up in melee instead. Going on the offense is best only done at night when attacking the enemy encampment. One would think they would use said rituals prior to an enemy's arrival... Even rituals have a limited range. Also the elves should try to inflict as much casualties as they safely can. Using the big guns first will not automatically mean that the enemy will not try again soon. To ensure this the enemy has to go through "hell". Also such rituals are not always available. forests are not very bad for elven archers , i have the impression that when you say ranged combat you think of something like the britisch longbowmen , but that is by far not they way elves fight in the forest . A limited line of sight work always for the ambusher so thats not a disadvantage. The forest is bad because the range of bows is very short and it is very likely that the archers will end up in melee. So they only get one or two shots before they have to flee. On open terrain the archers could fire much longer and use their advantage in archery over other races better. Also in a forest thrown weapons are better than bows because of the strength bonus. Range is rarely an issue. you give elves light armor for speed and then burden them with a towershield?! elves will use speed to strike fast & hard and then retreat , they will not hold a line except in the direst of needs ,and if that is the case the fight is probably allready lost. A tower shield does not reduce the speed of the wearer. Generally the troops wit the tower shield are just used as bodyguards and to keep the enemy away from the archers and wizards. For this the total cover ability of tower shields are very good as they help against area spells. For more aggressive melee combat Bladesingers are used instead. Those are great defensive tactics for elves, however, defense does not win wars. To win a war a nation needs to go on the offensive and destroy the enemies capabilities to fight. To do this you need conventional styled armies, with lots of mages and clerics thrown in to provide protective spells and to counter enemy magic used. Elves, as previous posters have stated, have an abundance of spellcasters, so there is no reason to think that them marching in battle lines is unrealistic given the magical potential in their spellcasters. (they can counter enemy magic and protect the troops with buffs; also, elven archers should be able to counter enemy mages as well) Conventional in which sense? Imo there is no "conventional" in a fantasy setting (or it is a very bad formation). Also elves have nothing to gain from an offensive. Even if they compleatly destroy the enemies war industry, the enemy still will recover compleatly much faster from that than the elves can recover from an offensive war. The only thing which would prevent that is occupation and for that the elves have too few troops. So no matter what they do elves will fight a war every few decades against sworn enemies. Your army stile is also not very viable. Buffs in D&D have a too short duration and mostly apply to only one person. And there are so many different attack spells that is rather impossible to buff all your troops against all possible attacks. It becomes a guessing game. Also many counters in D&D like dispell magic have a lower range than some attack spells.
Alediran 05-16-07, 09:59 AM	Derren, the elves use this tactics when fighting ranged among trees: fire arrow/s, change position before geting into melee, repeat until enemy is dead meat. That was what Takari Moonsnow did during the siege of Evereska in RotAW.
Boda 05-16-07, 10:15 AM	You keep saying this, but you've never bothered to back your opinion up. The fact of the matter is that the tactics you propose are little more than 18th-late 19th century European tactics with improved artillery. They expose Elves to unnecessary danger and horrid odds for absolutely no reason. 3,000 soldiers (the number of Akh'Velarn) is 3,000 soldiers. Purposefully marching them to a battlefield en masse to serve as archery targets at a minimum is simply irresponsible. or arrogant, and elfs arent imune to it... Akh'Velahr-20736 soldiers(10% non elven) Akh'Faer-2048 spellcasters(10% non elven) this does not include templestars, the cover ops forces, armathors, etc. I took your advice and consulted cormanthyr:empire of elves. Still no proof of elven comunity spirit or diferent economics, so all tactics usually employed against humans states also aply to elven states. True, use of human like or dwarven like tatics by elfs is a very bad idea, but cannon proves that elfs also have bad ideas. Curiously, when i wrote that elfs would fare a lot better in light artillery based warfare and fast susprise attacks, nobody agreed. Why would elves indulge their enemies in fighting on open field( expose to human cavalary), front line clashes( versus dwarven line or orc numerical advantage)? As for exposure to artillery or magic, all do that(maybe stupidly, but that just proves that stupidity does not choose races), so elfs wouldnt fare any worse at that that anybody else. This opinion is based on what the elfs have showed so far in warfare. Actually i dont agree that in forest combat bows are a disadvantage since with concealment(and we are talking about forest-like in european?), it will allow several shots before it's position is pinpointed(in a sniper kind of way), while throwing weapons imediatly reveal your position.Besides elfs are a lot better in skill and speed that strenght.
Boda 05-16-07, 10:34 AM	Cost doesn't really count in this sense. Elves don't maintain an economic system like ours. The fact of the matter is that the primary resource expended during the course of elven warfare is personnel. And you based this opinion on what? Both C:EoE and Fall of Myth Drannor mention economical and political changes in the realm wich arent unlike any observed in a large human realm. In fact, humans tended to dominate trade in the realm, and elves really were afected by economical changes, has both guides indicate. So yes, even on elven society, war is a expensive activity that drains several resources from it's nation.
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 10:36 AM	So are there any write ups in 3.X for elven settlements? All I've been able to find is Evereska's in the FRCS and that's so limited in detail as to be useless for this conversation. Well, except for "The approach to the city leads through a crescent-shaped valley of terraced vineyards and fruit gardens." Which shows, pretty clearly, how they manage to get their food. Anyhow, anyone know of any write ups out there? I've looked at the FRCS, CoV, RoF and Silver Marches (only quickly, I could have missed something) Because, really, this whole "we're making up forces for these people to have then pitting them against forces we've made up" really is going no where. I'm of the opinion that if we had a solid example then we may, just may, get somewhere.
Stigger 05-16-07, 10:41 AM	Nothing that I'm aware of beyond the 2e Evermeet book... which is far from helpful since just getting there presents innumerable problems for the average invader, barring underdark routes... and we have no real idea if those settlements are indicative of mainland settlements anyway.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 11:01 AM	-Evermeet has stats in the FRCS...The few realms that have been completed in Elves of Faerûn also have stats and such.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 11:02 AM	But not properly detailed stats, such as army statistics and spellcasters and the like.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 11:08 AM	But not properly detailed stats, such as army statistics and spellcasters and the like. -No, the entry for Evermeet in the FRCS has the typical things, such as population, imports, exports, alignments, and so on...
GothicDan 05-16-07, 11:09 AM	Booo!
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 11:17 AM	-Though, that makes me think...Perhaps when finals are over, I'll add stats like that to the settlements (rough estimates, of course)...
GothicDan 05-16-07, 11:19 AM	That's a lot of work!
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 11:25 AM	I thought that might be the case and Evermeet, like Stigger said, isn't a particularly good example.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 11:28 AM	So, the only fully detailed supplement for an Elven settlement that we have is Cormanthyr. While I don't think that the stats for Myth Drannor are appropriate for any old given culture on the mainland, I think it'd work fine for Evereska or any city on Evermeet... The latter's been around and relatively prosperous for millennia longer than Myth Drannor was, after all.
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 11:37 AM	So, the only fully detailed supplement for an Elven settlement that we have is Cormanthyr. While I don't think that the stats for Myth Drannor are appropriate for any old given culture on the mainland, I think it'd work fine for Evereska or any city on Evermeet... The latter's been around and relatively prosperous for millennia longer than Myth Drannor was, after all. I don't have the Cormanthyr book :(
Derren S. 05-16-07, 11:45 AM	Even if we had detailed stats, I think we already established that how armies are portrayed in such book doesn't make much sense when you consider the abilities of D&D characters.
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 11:54 AM	Even if we had detailed stats, I think we already established that how armies are portrayed in such book doesn't make much sense when you consider the abilities of D&D characters. Well, we could also make up some numbers, this whole ambiguous debate is bogged down in a morass of differing assumptions about what forces would be available. We don't even have rough numbers for the supposed forces we are pitting against each other, we don't have relative levels, we don't have terrain (other than "forest" which really varies drastically depending upon the region, in other words, the High Forest is vastly different from the Chondalwood is different from the Great Vale is different from Evermeet, etc), we don't have a starting point, nor an ending point. In other words, we haven't created a situation to evaluate and I'm of the opinion that without situations to evaluate we're going to continue on the "Well elves could cast X, Y and Z" and "Well that could be countered by A, B and C".
GothicDan 05-16-07, 12:05 PM	I don't have the Cormanthyr book It's available for free download!
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 12:21 PM	It's available for free download! Well damn, maybe I do have it kickin around somewhere then. ;) Thanks
GothicDan 05-16-07, 12:41 PM	No prob!
Derren S. 05-16-07, 01:24 PM	Well, we could also make up some numbers, this whole ambiguous debate is bogged down in a morass of differing assumptions about what forces would be available. We don't even have rough numbers for the supposed forces we are pitting against each other, we don't have relative levels, we don't have terrain (other than "forest" which really varies drastically depending upon the region, in other words, the High Forest is vastly different from the Chondalwood is different from the Great Vale is different from Evermeet, etc), we don't have a starting point, nor an ending point. In other words, we haven't created a situation to evaluate and I'm of the opinion that without situations to evaluate we're going to continue on the "Well elves could cast X, Y and Z" and "Well that could be countered by A, B and C". I don't think that we should decide on a individual situation. Every situation is unique and requires a unique tactic. But (at least that why I think) we are talking about the general elven outlook on warfare or in other words the general principles for every tactical decision elves make no matter in what situation they are in. For that we don't need to know the exact troop numbers and makup or what spells the elves exactly cast. (I know I also violated against this in my analysis). We can discuss individual spells/feats/items when they have an effect on the elven strategy (like large scale fire quenching spells) but it should not bug down into a "In situation X cast Y and Z" discussion. As long as everyone remembers the guidlines the rulebooks give about power level in D&D and he doesn't start to argument like "I don't know how but I am sure elves can do it somehow because they are uber, like for example always sneak perfectly in a forest, unhearable for human ears" it should work.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 01:35 PM	Derren, no one has argued that way in the entire thread. It's offensive to insinuate such. If you want to keep the thread 'civil,' try not to use offensive hyperbole. That being said, I very much think that arguing specifics is a good thing. That's what Phil had been doing from the beginning, really, when he was citing Cormanthyr.
Boda 05-16-07, 01:55 PM	Now THAT just pi$$es me off!!! :headexplo Plothooks are for PLAYERS, NOT for unimaginative AUTHORS. Go find your OWN ideas, ya' buncha lame-O's. :rant: Back to the topic - I do see problems with Elven society as written, but all of them are 'fixed' by extrapolating on the material. I know Derren and Dis don't like that approach, but if you really think about it ALL of the other society's would have the same kind of problems. Elves are Omnivores, but I picture their diet being much closer to that of Gorillas. They eat mostly fruit, vegetables, and legumes, and maybe supplement that with a termite hill every once in awhile. Sounds gross? They are NOT HUMAN, remember? We don't need to know they eat bugs (if they even do), because it has very little relevancy on the game. Thats what all those CK threads are for - to find out how people wipe their a_s in FR! We don't NEED to know those things to play the game; those are the day-to-day trivial details. 1e used to include quite a few spells that no adventurer would take. They were pure fluff, meant to explain certain IG things (like "What do they eat?"). 2e had a little of that going on, especially toward the beginning, but then it was fazed out. I don't really see any of those types of spells in 3e (but I'm sure there are one or two), because we DON'T NEED THEM. It is assumed that many spells exist that clean our clothes, and improve the size of our crops, and 'take notes for us' as we dictate, and yes, even to wipe our butts. If you want to see those types of spells go through some of the older books. I enjoyed them for the fluff value, but I really haven't missed them at all. Just because something isn't printed in B&W (and we ALL have been down this road before), don't assume it doesn't exist. Dwarves are probably the WORST offenders! Many of their realms aren't near the surface, or even trade with the surface. In fact, before their first appearance in -12,000 DR they lived entirely in the Yehimal range. Now, I got just one question for you: Except for perhaps the halflings, who are really nothing more then short humans, the rest of the societies are BROKEN. Agreed. If anyone needs explanations about dwarfs, just read RAS. He has the hightest opinion of them. Maybe their drink fungus beer(argh!).
GothicDan 05-16-07, 01:56 PM	I think Dwarves Deep would be the best resource to check on Dwarves, myself...
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 02:10 PM	As long as everyone remembers the guidlines the rulebooks give about power level in D&D and he doesn't start to argument like "I don't know how but I am sure elves can do it somehow because they are uber, like for example always sneak perfectly in a forest, unhearable for human ears" it should work. Well, the "elves are super sneaky in the woods" has it's roots from older editions and, personally, I like such flavor, however, I have not included such remarks in this debate. Though; Given the +2 dex modifier (for moon elves anyhow) that gives a +1 bonus to hide and move silently, Given the +2 bonus to listen, spot and search, Then, on average, an elf with both sneak better than a human and will be able to locate the human before the human can locate the elf. Thus, on average, elves are more sneaky than humans, especially in their woodland homes. :)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 02:17 PM	And in general they probably have more Ranks in Survival (I'd say Knowledge (nature), but that doesn't exist any more), so that'd add to some fluff, too. :)
Derren S. 05-16-07, 02:18 PM	Well, the "elves are super sneaky in the woods" has it's roots from older editions and, personally, I like such flavor, however, I have not included such remarks in this debate. Though; Given the +2 dex modifier (for moon elves anyhow) that gives a +1 bonus to hide and move silently, Given the +2 bonus to listen, spot and search, Then, on average, an elf with both sneak better than a human and will be able to locate the human before the human can locate the elf. Thus, on average, elves are more sneaky than humans, especially in their woodland homes. :) I never said that someone said something like that. I just want to avoid that someone argues that elves can/can't do something without first thinking what skill check with which DCs or what spell levels that would require. Saying that elves sneak better than humans and would use it to their advantage is ok. But saying something like for example that elves can always sneak up on humans and that they can move faster in a forest than other races because they life there is not (imo). You don't have to state it but when you say "elves can do X", at least have a comprehensible reason for it. And in general they probably have more Ranks in Survival (I'd say Knowledge (nature), but that doesn't exist any more), so that'd add to some fluff, too. They probably have (living with the nature probably is part of the normal child education for elves). But survival isn't limited to forests in D&D and also doesn't give a bonus to move silently (or is there a synergy bonus?)
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 02:27 PM	Homes they have lived in for (if they are just barely adult) 3 human lifetimes. Not lived in as in "I had a cabin and just loved the bass fishing!". Lived in as in knowing the locations of every deadfall, briarpatch, sinkhole, and natural treestand. Then add being on speaking terms with all the Fey and Beasts that are the real threats to any invading force. It's not a matter of being unhearable. It's a matter akin to a land war in Russia. Not impossible, just way too painful. Comprehensable enough? Sorry to leave you with so much to post Shadez, RW is just trying to screw itself into the ground at the moment.;)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 02:30 PM	They probably have (living with the nature probably is part of the normal child education for elves). But survival isn't limited to forests in D&D and also doesn't give a bonus to move silently (or is there a synergy bonus?) You're probably right on the synergy bonus. As a DM, I'd probably ad hoc a bonus in there, though, for, say, an Elf that had lived in the forest for 200 years. But ONLY in that forest. I'd probably do the same for a Dwarf that had grown up in the same cavern system for 150 years, too, mind you.
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 02:33 PM	Sorry to leave you with so much to post Shadez, RW is just trying to screw itself into the ground at the moment.;) Ah the RW, the worst of all D&D enemies ;)
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 02:33 PM	You're probably right on the synergy bonus. As a DM, I'd probably ad hoc a bonus in there, though, for, say, an Elf that had lived in the forest for 200 years. But ONLY in that forest. I'd probably do the same for a Dwarf that had grown up in the same cavern system for 150 years, too, mind you. Excellent analogy...<scribbles in notebook>... Teehee.....analogy.....:D
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 02:35 PM	Ah the RW, the worst of all D&D enemies ;) I would destroy it, but then where would I get good cannoli?;)
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 02:36 PM	Homes they have lived in for (if they are just barely adult) 3 human lifetimes. Not lived in as in "I had a cabin and just loved the bass fishing!". Lived in as in knowing the locations of every deadfall, briarpatch, sinkhole, and natural treestand. Then add being on speaking terms with all the Fey and Beasts that are the real threats to any invading force. It's not a matter of being unhearable. It's a matter akin to a land war in Russia. Not impossible, just way too painful. Comprehensable enough? While I heartily concur with this statement I can certainly see the "there are no rules to reflect this" argument. Which is unfortunate, since after 3 or 4 centuries an elf should have a VAST skill array (or, if they stuck with one or two tasks a huge rank in those tasks) and knowledge array but the rules do not reflect this. Which I think is based in "game balance" rather than "common sense" (though, one could easily argue that "game balance" is a product of "common sense")
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 02:38 PM	I would destroy it, but then where would I get good cannoli?;) I've heard it rumored that one of the Heavens produces absolutely divine cannolis. sorry bout that, couldn't help myself
GothicDan 05-16-07, 02:42 PM	Giggle, I said ****.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 02:43 PM	Ayway I think we are again on a too tacitcal level. Everyone has an advantage when fighting on familiar territory where they lived their whole live in, not just elves. Do you have any ideas how elven offense would look? They (and everyone else) would rarely use massed armies. Elves would probably rely on long range spells and rituals (and I mean really long range like nightmare). If wizards are required on the field they teleport themselves probably to where they are needed, take out the target and teleport away again. If teleportaion is not possible they use stealth to sneak in. Primary targets would be enemy leaders (works great against orcs) and enemy spellcasters to further increase their magical advantage. Still most of the time elves stay on the defense. Thats at least how I think they would act.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 02:50 PM	Derren, I agree with you, in large part. I also think they'd play off of environmental effects more - intensifying heat waves, souring supplies, causing dams to burst, etc. I don't think they'd defensive so much as more patient in their methods of combat. They'd always fight to win the war, not the battle, with as little actual casualties as possible. We'd probably consider their tactics roundabout.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 02:59 PM	-Silver Shadows and In Sylvan Shadows give good examples of contempoarary Wood Elf tactics. -The Last Mythal Trilogy has more..."conventional" Sun and Moon Elven tactics.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:01 PM	Do they differ significantly from what we saw in the Last Mythal trilogy?
Alediran 05-16-07, 03:24 PM	Having read all those books I can say that Wood/Wild Elves are the best in Hit&Run tactics of all elves, they have more phisical strenght and constitution (Wild Elves) than most elves, combined with the normal elven traits they can harras an army until they become demoralized, not counting their druids to further that harrasment with summoned creatures and terrain changes (that was what the Archdruidess of the Moonshaes did during the first trilogy, at the end, the enemy army was in bad shape before making contact with Prince Kendrick's army). Moon elves are better fitted to small and tight companies who use tactical movements and daring maneuvers (Moon Elf Eagleriders for example) over brute force both in defensive and offensive combat, no matter the terrain. Sun Elves are the most close to human way of fighting (the irony is huge), they are the most organized forces of the Tel'Quessir, they employ formations even among the Pegasusriders, and maintaining formation on that way is hard. In Elves of Evermeet they where stated as natural mounted warriors. While each race has some standar strategies, an army consisting of different elven subraces can give a hell of a job to an enemy commander, because they will be mixing their different tactics. If I was an Elven General with members of different elven sub-races at my command I would first send the Wood and Wild Elves to weaken the enemy by using druids, rangers and a wizard or sorcerer (any race) to demoralize and kill the enemy important figures (top ranks and spellcasters). Next I would send the Aerial troops, starting with Eagleriders to eliminate the big guns (siege weapons, cavalry and ranged fighters), next I would send the Dragonraiders and Pegasusriders to inspire greater fear and heavy losses among the melee troops. If the enemy still intends to fight against my troops I toast them with my Wizards and more Hit & Run tactics, probably involving Bladesingers and Arcane Archers. If there are still trying to fight (by that moment I would think that the enemy commander is either st**** or suicidal or something big that can't be stoped by my forces will happen) and the tactics employed before didn't demoralized the enemy only then I would engange in short ranged and melee combat, wich favors my Sun Elf cavalry, while smashing any remaining archer and/or spellslinger with aerial attacks.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 03:32 PM	I don't see why elves would focus on mounted combat. Cavalry, both airborn and grounded, is useless in a forest battle. And why would elves have large detachments of soldiers they can't use normally in combat?
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:32 PM	I would expect Sun Elves to have the most organized formations... But given their bonus to Int and their focus on magic (arcane AND divine), I imagine that their formations, and their mobility, wouldn't be something that we'd see in the vast majority of other Faerunian armies (if any). I think they could make rather amazing use of translocation magic and still stay organized. THAT'S a scary thought. Teleporting and dimension dooring through the forest, tossing Forest Fireballs and Mazing enemy Fighters, Feebleminding enemy spellcasters after forging 4-7 large Circles, golden-armored Sun Elven Knights acting like a whirling wall of blades around them... Mmmm. I actually am REALLY interested in thinking about how your typical Elven fighter (more Sun Elven than moon Elven) would fight. In the Kushiel saga by Jacqueline Carey, there's an order of bodyguards that focus on TIGHT quarter fighting, using two long daggers, and basically using lightly armored shins and forearms to block; they have a sword that they ONLY draw when they intend to kill. They have an amazingly mobile tactic, considering they fight in close quarters. They basically learn circular dancing motions, weaving in and out, almost like they were dancing a cyclical pattern, like the motions of the sun and the costellations. In my mind, that's officially how I picture Sun Elven Fighters (not Bladesingers), now. Medium armored, dancing in patterned circles, perfectly in synch with each other.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:33 PM	I don't see why elves would focus on mounted combat. Cavalry, both airborn and grounded, is useless in a forest battle. And why would elves have large detachments of soldiers they can't use normally in combat? The Sun Elves are the Elves that seem to have the least affinity to actual forested environments (barring Drow and Aquatic Elves and the like). They prefer more urban areas and mountain peaks and hills.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 03:34 PM	Do they differ significantly from what we saw in the Last Mythal trilogy? -Yes, very much so. But, there are also a lot of differences between the two sources I mentioned. The first has Wood/Wild Elves, while the latter has Sun/Moon Elves. The first is a defensive conflict, while the latter is an offensive conflict. The first is very "rag-tag", while the latter is highly organized and structured. -Alediran sums things up nicely.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:38 PM	I still think my version of Sun Elven combat is cooler and more accurate. *scoffs.* A PrC, perhaps... Called the Circledancer... Hm. Or the Orbweaver or the Goldblade.
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 03:41 PM	Giggle, I said ****. Why yes, yes you did. :D
Derren S. 05-16-07, 03:42 PM	A mountain terrain would explain airborn cavalry as those are very effective on this terrain. Your tactic also sounds plausible. They try to seperate the enemy force and then destroy each part with surprise attacks/encirclements. Because of the many spellcasters (and general focus on few high level troops) they have enough spell slots to telepathically link everyone which greatly helps with coordination. But don't focus too much on teh "coolness" of the fighting style. A believable tactic has to be effective, not cool. But fighting in thight formation (Moon elves)? That is much too risky in the D&D environemnt. A single area spell which you don't have protections against (and there are a lot of different forms of area attacks) and the whole unit suffers. It also reduces the mobility as it gives the enemy the chance to encircle you. Imo thats not a smart formation. Besides moon elves are chaotic so I wouldn't expect them to use close formations (or even formulated out battle tactics)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:45 PM	That's true, though in my mind, I picture these whirling circle-dancing formations actually defending the spellcasters on the inside, who in turn work magic to largely help the fighters defend against magical assaults. In that case, if I was making this PrC, I'd give them something along the lines of Evasion and/or Improved Evasion. It's fitting, I think. It would effectively really meld the "Steel versus steel, magic versus magic" mentality that classical sword and sorcery has going... Something to the Thayan Knight, but more cooperative. And then there's the morale factor to deal with... Imagine the look on a human wizard's face if he tosses a big, blazing fireball into a dozen Elves, and almost all of them come dancing through the flames, eyes flashing, golden blades twinkling, just barely scorched... Mmm. So, either a PrC would have to be developed, or a proper multiclassing (Fighter/Rogue, maybe some Knight?). I'd rather go with the PrC, as Sun Elves tend to focus on one path more than splitting their attentions among multiple. I'd probably go with Fighter's BAB, Good Ref and Fort, Poor Will, Evasion in time, Improved Evasion, and maybe 1-2 more minor to moderate benefits, and one big one at the end. A 10-level PrC. Maybe something along the Whirlwind Attack branch, with Mobility and Dodge... And probably pretty strict requirements - probably Fighter 7 prereq instead of the typical 5th level thing.
Alediran 05-16-07, 03:45 PM	But fighting in thight formation? That is much too risky in teh D&D environemnt. A single area spell which you don't have protections against (and there are a lot of different forms of area attacks) and the whole unit suffers. It also reduces the mobility as it gives the enemy the chance to encircle you. Imo thats not a smart formation. AoE spells are something that can be easely defeated by a couple rogue levels or a Ring of Improved Evasion. Most of them have reflex saves. And Rogue/Swashbuckler levels are something I would add to that kind of fighter, they match perfectly.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 03:52 PM	AoE spells are something that can be easely defeated by a couple rogue levels or a Ring of Improved Evasion. Most of them have reflex saves. Rogues levels are still dead levels for close range fighters/blandesingers. And rings of evasion are expensive. Besides, +2 Dex doesn't drastically increase your chance to make reflex saves. Risking to loose a couple of elven fighters to area spells because they have a 5% better chance to make reflex saves is imo not a smart move. When those elves are rangers with the 2weapon focus then they would have a adequate chance to make reflex saves, but still those rings are imo to costly to give them to many fighters. There are also some area spells which don't have a reflex save (Horrid Wilting)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:52 PM	Yeah, only I'd want this to be a straight Fighter build, rather than class-dipping. It feels more Sun Elven to me, for some reason. And I really like the idea of using bracers and shinguards for blocking attacks, rather than a lot of clunky armor or resorting to powerful spells for defense. So it's more about skill in defense and offense, less about the luck of hoping someone can't pierce your armor or dispel your magic... Which I think is pretty Sun Elven.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:54 PM	Rogues levels are still dead levels for close range fighters/blandesingers. And rings of evasion are expensive. Besides, +2 Dex doesn't drastically increase your chance to make reflex saves. Risking to loose a couple of elven fighters to area spells because they have a 5% better chance to make reflex saves is imo not a smart move. When those elves are rangers with the 2weapon focus then they would have a adequate chance to make reflex saves, but still those rings are imo to costly to give them to many fighters. I actually agree with most of this. It's not easy to shrug off a Fireball.. The shock value of doing so should be immense, and a rare occurence. I am so close to actually making this PrC, now. I wish I didn't suck at it.
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 03:54 PM	Ayway I think we are again on a too tacitcal level. Everyone has an advantage when fighting on familiar territory where they lived their whole live in, not just elves. Do you have any ideas how elven offense would look? They (and everyone else) would rarely use massed armies. Elves would probably rely on long range spells and rituals (and I mean really long range like nightmare). If wizards are required on the field they teleport themselves probably to where they are needed, take out the target and teleport away again. If teleportaion is not possible they use stealth to sneak in. Primary targets would be enemy leaders (works great against orcs) and enemy spellcasters to further increase their magical advantage. Still most of the time elves stay on the defense. Thats at least how I think they would act. Derren, I agree with you, in large part. I also think they'd play off of environmental effects more - intensifying heat waves, souring supplies, causing dams to burst, etc. I don't think they'd defensive so much as more patient in their methods of combat. They'd always fight to win the war, not the battle, with as little actual casualties as possible. We'd probably consider their tactics roundabout. Hmmm, you two might just get a B to C in military tactics. Elves, when they fight other longlived races, fight to win the battle. Then they are set up for the next. Wars last decades, not something to be won in a fortnight. The only exception is when the elves know they will be overwhelmed by :rolleyes: "breeding":rolleyes:. Enter Jhamdaath. Surfs up! I truly think this discussion isn't realistic, as very few of us know what it is like to fight a true longterm campaign. I have co-workers whose only job is to simulate wars. They deal with 100thousands dying from one weapon. Sound famaliar? Surfs up!:D
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:57 PM	Well, Phil has military experience, and he seemed to agree with my initial thoughts of small to medium groups of Circle-linked High Magi, clerical support, bladesinger defenders, and archers (a few Arcane ones in there, I'd say), working in coordinated, highly mobile and telepathically linked (via magic) groups... :)
Alediran 05-16-07, 03:57 PM	Rogues levels are still dead levels for close range fighters/blandesingers. Then you haven't see tha wonders a Bladesinger with a couple rogue levels can do :D . I've annoyed countless "Iron Tower" Fighters with the feat that denies the Armor bonus to AC from Complete Adventurer using a Bladesinger (Quickened True Strike after using the feat and there is no way he can avoid eating sharp pieces of metal), and Dex fighters using Improved Feint (a killer when you have sneak attack).
Derren S. 05-16-07, 03:59 PM	How often do elves fight other long lived races? The only races which would fit are dwarves and dragons. Dwarves live in so different areas so that I can't see why those two races would clash and against dragons the elves won only by casting a super powerful high magic ritual. Other than those two races there aren't really many races out there which live as long as elves and reproduce so slowly. The problem with Deft Strike is that it reduces your rate of attack as you have to spend a whole turn doing nothing to use it. Against many human(oids) opponents that is imo a waste.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:00 PM	Darn 2 year gestation periods. *Shakes fist.* Frankly, what with the whole Cormanthyran campaign and the attack on Evereska, I think the Elves' numbers should really be hurting by now.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 04:06 PM	Its not only the 2 years gestation but also the 100 years to grow up. The elves probably haven't even recovered from the attack on Evermeet by the drow yet (when exactly was that?). Imo one can say that the elven military is in the worst state since centuries.
Alediran 05-16-07, 04:08 PM	Elven losses during Last Mythal weren't as big as many think they were.
Derren S. 05-16-07, 04:11 PM	Do you have any numbers? Don't forget that most elven fighters send into combat are experienced (higher level than normal). Its not just the manpower the elves have to replace (which is hard enough for them) but also the experience. While all elves know how to fire a bow and to strike with a sword only few can do it well enough to be considered a soldier by elven standards.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:12 PM	There was actually very little damage done to Evermeet, if I recall correctly. As to the Last Mythal thing... Well, suffice it to say, that REGARDLESS of how few were lost, I don't blame the Elven council for not sanctioning them to go into battle, after the disaster at Evereska, and Evermeet's attack (as far as morale goes with the latter, mostly).
Alediran 05-16-07, 04:13 PM	Allow me to reread the battles and I'll give some rough numbers (I still have an hour before finishing my laboral day), but the great work of clerics saved the lives of many. In the attack to Evermeet the only major loss was the Towers of Sun & Moon, only Kymil's elven forces could enter the island and most of them stopped the fight almost immediately. The Elf-Eater was stopped pretty quick by Amlauril's eldest child (loved that part when Amlauril transformed the appeareance of Malar and Lolth into Elves, making them run for their lives XD)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:15 PM	Hopefully they did a lot of healing and not rezzing...
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 04:16 PM	Imo one can say that the elven military is in the worst state since centuries. See, this is one of the problems I see in this thread, the whole "elven military" deal. The elves don't have an overall military umbrella, or at least I don't think they do, I could be wrong. I certainly believe they have alliances between major elven settlements (baring any disagreements they have) and are much more unified than human settlements but at best, at the very best, I'd put the amount of organization at a level with the Silver Marches and I would say that doesn't include a lot of elven settlements. If that makes sense. :) Which is why I've been trying to move the debate into more specifics.
ShadezofDis 05-16-07, 04:20 PM	Hopefully they did a lot of healing and not rezzing... Seconded.
Alediran 05-16-07, 04:20 PM	Hopefully they did a lot of healing and not rezzing... Yup, that was what they did.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:24 PM	Well, I suppose there's ONE thing I had to find acceptable with the trilogy... Probably only dictated such.
Alediran 05-16-07, 04:38 PM	There is another one that you surely like, to see the other Sun Elves, the ones who truly are Good examples of the race, contrary to the "Kymils" of most books. If you ignore some things, like the Tree of Souls mistake, the trilogy is actually a good one. We finally see interaction between different elven races and elves with N'Tel'Quess, we can read about those who normaly don't appear (the mayor part of the Elven Crusade is composed by commoner elves who felt the need to help their brothers even if it didn't affected them directly, an attitude completely opposite to the leaders, even Amlauril secretly approved)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:40 PM	I don't know about that. I don't really like their depiction of the Lady Durothil (uber conservative to the point of being made obviously 'wrong'), and the way that the only 'Good' Sun Elves were those who went AGAINST the norm. In a way that's a slap in the face to Sun Elven culture. A Sun Elf who DISOBEYS High Magic tradition as the protagonist, and in the end saves the day? Sounds like a Moon Elf, to me...
Kelmech_Ra 05-16-07, 04:42 PM	I don't underdstand why people don't think elves wouldn't use formations just because they risk being injured or killed. In any war the soldiers risk being killed, but that doesn't stop them from fighting. Now, I understand that elves are adverse to huge losses, so one would think that their melee formations would be more fluid and spread out than their average human equivelant. About how buffs have short term effects: I agree, they do, but the elves wouldn't send in their melee formations until the enemy has been softened up to the point where the melee troops will have little resistance, or in desparation. Elves have an abundance of spellcasters, so an elvish army would logically have more magical might than just about any human or humanoid they would face. With this in mind, it is logical that elvish spellcasters would have the edge and snuff out the enemy threat. They would not be able to null every enemy mage, i'm sure some woudl be disguised in the ranks, but even if a few mages are able to launch a fireball, the elvish infantry would be buffed before they attacked. Besides, with elvish soldiers general being higher levels than their human counterparts, it can be assumed that they would suffer less casualties from a fireball. Also, elves seem to have an abundance of magical gear. So many of their soldiers could, and most likely would, have some magical gear. Perhaps the elvish vangaurd would be an elite with rings of spell resistance, amulets of health, or any other numerous items would would increase their survival against common war magic (firebalsl, lighting bolts, etc). Elvish soldiers could also be issued potions, such as potions of haste which the drink before they move into engage the enemy hand to hand. The possiblies with so many magical weapons, rings, potions, and spells seem almost endless. In my mind, elvish formations would be fluid, well equipt, and well supported by elvish spellcasters, greatly reducing the effects of enemy spellcasters. Sure, some elves would die because of enemy magic, but then again, some elves will die from enemy arrows, speras, and blades. I do understand the main elvish tactic is defensive, to ambush small parts of the enemy, hit and run, and wear down the enemy. But, as in the Last Mythal trilogy, it seems that the elves are going to do a little more offense than they have last...1000 years or so? So, is it so unreasonable to assume they would use more offense formations and tactics?
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:45 PM	I think they WOULD use more tactics, and more formations than the typical human army (especially Sun Elves). I just don't think they would resemble the sort of formations as historically depicted during our own medieval period, but be more like our modern warfare. And Ed Greenwood has said as much in one of his answers at Candlekeep regarding the methods in which Elves wage war, tactically. I don't think any of us have said that Elves wouldn't use formations and tactics... That would just be stupid. We've just been questioning how they would differ from our standard medieval ones. ... And speaking of that, I'm going to go read some more of Ed's answers again while watching Smalllville. Maybe I'll coincidentally pick up on a few tidbits that could be useful to this discussion. ;)
Alediran 05-16-07, 04:48 PM	I don't know about that. I don't really like their depiction of the Lady Durothil (uber conservative to the point of being made obviously 'wrong'), and the way that the only 'Good' Sun Elves were those who went AGAINST the norm. In a way that's a slap in the face to Sun Elven culture. A Sun Elf who DISOBEYS High Magic tradition as the protagonist, and in the end saves the day? Sounds like a Moon Elf, to me... Most Sun Elves who travell during many years among other races tend to become more like Moon Elves, the Sun Elf bard from Elfsong had a human pirate friend, and taught Spellsong to Danilo. There are many Sun Elves during Last Mythal that are perfect examples of elven tradition and pro-norm without being depicted in a wrong way and still taking their weapons against the Fey'ri. I see Sun Elves as balls of fire covered by a ball of ice, much like they are described in Elves of Evermeet.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:54 PM	Most Sun Elves who travell during many years among other races tend to become more like Moon Elves, the Sun Elf bard from Elfsong had a human pirate friend, and taught Spellsong to Danilo. I'm not sure that would count as "most." In fact, Sun Elves are the least likely to travel among other races, so representing those as the 'typical Sun Elf' doesn't sit well in my mouth. There are many Sun Elves during Last Mythal that are perfect examples of elven tradition and pro-norm without being depicted in a wrong way and still taking their weapons against the Fey'ri. I guess I'll just have to be skeptical of this assertion until I work up the willpower to read it for myself. Sadly, it's currently near the bottom of my stack, after things like Phantom, Anansi Boys, Realms of the Elves, The Worm Ouroboros, Faust, etc. I see Sun Elves as balls of fire covered by a ball of ice, much like they are described in Elves of Evermeet. That much, I'll agree with. I still like them with a Lawful bend, though.
Alediran 05-16-07, 04:59 PM	I'm not sure that would count as "most." In fact, Sun Elves are the least likely to travel among other races, so representing those as the 'typical Sun Elf' doesn't sit well in my mouth. That much, I'll agree with. I still like them with a Lawful bend, though. A Moon Elf noble also doesn't counts as a typical Moon Elf, yet there are many of them. It can be perfectly possible that subracial mixing while not usually giving physical characteristics from both parents can still give them the mental characteristics. I don't think that a Sun Elf born from a Moon Elf and a Sun Elf will have the same kind of personality as a Sun Elf born from two Sun Elves.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 05:01 PM	I'm not sure where you're going with that, Alediran... I agree with what you're saying, but how does that pertain to the topic we were discussing? (Regarding the depictions of Sun Elves in the trilogy.)
Kelmech_Ra 05-16-07, 05:02 PM	I think they WOULD use more tactics, and more formations than the typical human army (especially Sun Elves). I just don't think they would resemble the sort of formations as historically depicted during our own medieval period, but be more like our modern warfare. And Ed Greenwood has said as much in one of his answers at Candlekeep regarding the methods in which Elves wage war, tactically. I don't think any of us have said that Elves wouldn't use formations and tactics... That would just be stupid. We've just been questioning how they would differ from our standard medieval ones. ... And speaking of that, I'm going to go read some more of Ed's answers again while watching Smalllville. Maybe I'll coincidentally pick up on a few tidbits that could be useful to this discussion. ;) I agree. I don't think the elves would form a shield wall and advance upon the enemy, unless their shields were very heavily influenced I would think that before engaging, the elves would would first try to spread out the enemy formation and get in among them and use tactics similar to what you described earlier; always moving and flowing, as swordplay for elves is seen as an art, or dance, not just a skill.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 05:30 PM	-Sun Elves...Rah, rah, rah!
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 05:32 PM	See, this is one of the problems I see in this thread, the whole "elven military" deal. The elves don't have an overall military umbrella, or at least I don't think they do, I could be wrong. I certainly believe they have alliances between major elven settlements (baring any disagreements they have) and are much more unified than human settlements but at best, at the very best, I'd put the amount of organization at a level with the Silver Marches and I would say that doesn't include a lot of elven settlements. If that makes sense. :) Which is why I've been trying to move the debate into more specifics. This is why I say this isn't a realistic discussion as far as Elven Military Issues is concerned. Only when you break it down into specifics does it become debatable. The elves know exactly how to win wars. Wipe your opponent off the map. Very simple actually. Friendly casualities will be present, but minor compared prolonged war. Especially without the whole "radiation" thing. Other than those two races there aren't really many races out there which live as long as elves and reproduce so slowly. Dwarves and Dragons? Why don't we just add hostile elves, drow, phaerrim, demons, devils, fey'ri, sladdi, gith, pseudonatural critters..by all that is (un)holy....read a book, then another book, then another, and another. How often do elves fight other long lived races? The only races which would fit are dwarves and dragons. Dwarves live in so different areas so that I can't see why those two races would clash and against dragons the elves won only by casting a super powerful high magic ritual. See, this is where we differ. You ask "How Often?". That, IMHO, is the goofiest of all questions when it comes to elves. How often do they war to begin with? If you don't get the basis of the elven tactics how can you even hope to twaddle on about what they should or could do? If you are asking what % of battles are against longlived opponents? 95% over the timespan. About 50% now. Oh wait, are you speaking of battles in novels? 80% then. Derren, you asked for this....:rolleyes:
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 09:08 PM	I would not. It looks like that because they only use the best soldiers they have but the bulk of elven soldiers are probably as low level as human ones. Its just they don't get used. So it looks like all elven soldiers are high level because they field only champions That would not be the case. The standard soldier of the Akh'Velarn was a 1d6+2 lvl Fighter. There were 3,000 soldiers, of whom more than 2/3 fell under the above template. Their champions were even higher level. There are no other "bulk soldiers," really; the forces of Myth Drannor (including the Akh'Faern) totalled up to about 4,000 out of less than 60,000--and that includes the elderly and the children. They did not, however, include the multiple instances of higher-than-normal level nobles. Divination doesn't normally help with short range line of sights for spellcasting and archery. X-Ray vision might help but the foilage would still block spells and arrows. We're kind of running around in circles here, and I don't want to get stuck debating what can and cannot happen in the environment that I don't even believe the elves would truly want to confront their opponents in. Having said that, though, I again will state this--it all depends on the woods. I've taken part in field exercises in Thai rain forests, North Carolina woodlands, Louisianna bayou country, and in Hawaiian hills. I don't pretend to be an archery or spellcasting expert, but I assure you that I ran into few areas where visibility dropped to less than a good football field. Stealth would obviously mitigate an individual's ability to spot an opponent, but there we go again--there are ways to get around this. Prying Eyes is an excellent spell for scouting out a location. Control Weather is a 7th level spell and even for elves such spell slots aren't limitless. Don't forget that it has a long casting time and a 10 minutes delay. Again, see my further notes on combustibility. Please no assumption of what things elves are able to do easily. Elves are no (demi) gods and also fail their skill checks from time to time. And it simply is harder to sneak in a forest then otherwise. I didn't say it wasn't harder; I said elves are better at it. There's obviously a reason for that, and it's called higher experience. The average elf Fighter (6th lvl) likely has 3 ranks of Move Silently and/or Hide, and a DEX modifier of +1 or +2. That's far better than the average Orc or human soldier's Spot bonus. But are elves able to do something other than guerilla warfare? Yes. This is due to their great number of wizards. They are vastly outnumbered and on open terrain this is much worse than in a forest. Dealing with greater numbers has been a matter as old as warfare itself. Alexander III of Macedon and his father, Phillip II negated numerical superiority by doing something as simple as moving in the oblique. I don't even propose that. I propose that a magic-centric elf army in the open would operate in small, coordinated units of spellcasters, champions, and infantrymen (the latter capable of fighting with both sword and bow). See more for this. A fireball also sets combustibles in its area on fire and damages objects. (mentioned in the spell description). Not to sound like a know-it-all, but explosive, non-sustaining pyrotechnic effects set little to nothing on fire. Hand grenades, 60mm mortars, 105-155mm artillery shells, Mk-82 500lb bombs, etc... I've seen a lot of stuff blow up in foilage and vegetation. If it ain't a dry season, you're not going to see a fire. Yes such a feat exists but the mages would need to have it. Agreed. I also think a realistic elf society would have researched non-fire spells--kind of like the list of dwarf spells designed to locate minerals and metals, for example. I will later create a list of feats I think elves would take often. Cool. :) Its in the individual spell description. All walls except Stone and Thorns require you to make a flat vertical plane (sometimes they have a option for making a hemisphere) You are correct! Imo because when using offensively the elves are the ones who have to move into range and thus lose their ambush advantage. Coupled with the low range bows have in a forest it means that they will likely end up in melee instead. Going on the offense is best only done at night when attacking the enemy encampment. Again, we differ in fundamental philosophy. I believe the elves would be at their potential weakest within their forests. Even rituals have a limited range. Depends on the ritual, I suppose. There are several detailed rituals, and their ranges vary greatly. Now, for the tactics I propose. A largely conventional army typically has a very hard time marching more 20-30 miles per day or more. Historically, non-mechanized armies that moved so swiftly did so for short periods of time and in order to gain a tactical advantage over an opponent. Prolonged periods of such movement would bring an army out of reach with their supply train. Doing so would force them to move more slowly in order to forage/raid. Taking this into consideration, the assumption can be made that a conventional army will not have the opportunity to penetrate elven lands with their having enough time to find out about their intentions. I don't think it needs to be argued anymore that massed columns are as potent against evoker magic and allied High Magic effects as they were against massed artillery in this past century. The natural counter for this would be to split up an army into smaller brigades or battalions. This, on paper, seems a good idea--it also means that the smaller unit's movement rate will be more rapid, and its ability to forage will be greater. The primary factor for determining into how many groups an army might split up, however, is the ability for the smallest group to remain an offensively and defensively viable force. Assuming a 20,000-30,000-strong army (going off 100 Years War era), are brigades of a thousand soldiers still a potent force on their own? How about battalions of 500? Or maybe companies of 100? The question is, at what level are those units no longer able to counter a magical assault? A spellcaster capable of casting fireball will outrange archers with composite bows, and will be able to affect as many as many as 16 individuals (in open formation) without being Enlarged or what have you. I would say that the forces of Cormanthyr would array themselves for battle in groups numbering equal to the number of Senior Akh'Faern Officers present--each of whom is a lvl 1d10+10 spellcaster. Each of them would likewise have 2 junior Akh'Faern officers and 6 Akh'Faern spellcasters. Accompanying would be 3-4 Protectors/Champions (such as Bladesingers and the like). Depending on the situation, I would include as many as 40 Akh'Velarn per group. I'll even assume there aren't any High Magi involved. It wouldn't be fun for one of them to simply take up the powers of a metallic dragon and run amok, after all--never mind teleporting into the middle of an army and using a different ritual to send everyone within 100 feet of his position running in panic for at least an hour. Deployment would be contingent on magical scrying and other uses of divining magic, use of familiars, or conventional scouting. The groups described above would preferably arrive using Teleportation Circles. They would be separated from one another enough to prevent opposing archers from engaging them as a whole. Their preferable array would be such that would require the formations of archers to re-redeploy their lines and/or split up in smaller groups to engage every group. In such a scenario, opposing spellcasters would be negated/addressed as necessary, with remaining elven wizards targeting enemy soldiers with area effect spells. Akh'Velarn would take the lead on taking out those archers capable of harassing their specific group. If necessary, I can go into greater detail regarding specific threats, counteractions, etc. Of course, none of what I come up with would even approach the real meat of elven strategy. I, at best, have an INT score of 13-14 (assuming 10 IQ points per pt of INT)... and thus nowhere near a centuries-old creature dedicated to maximizing his race's potential for warfare.
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 09:25 PM	Akh'Velahr-20736 soldiers(10% non elven) Akh'Faer-2048 spellcasters(10% non elven) this does not include templestars, the cover ops forces, armathors, etc. I took your advice and consulted cormanthyr:empire of elves. I could be completely wrong, but I would guess you didn't read it enough. Where did you get those numbers? Still no proof of elven comunity spirit or diferent economics, ... Yeah, you definitely need to read this again. ... so all tactics usually employed against humans states also aply to elven states. That's a rather uninformed opinion. Should we really be having this conversation? Even if what you claimed above was true (and it isn't) how the heck do you come up with conclusion? What, you're going to attack a community in the middle of a (potentially) magical forest the same way you would attack a walled castle? True, use of human like or dwarven like tatics by elfs is a very bad idea, but cannon proves that elfs also have bad ideas. Gosh, I wish you'd cite an instance instead of just saying it did! Why would elves indulge their enemies in fighting on open field Well, let's see. Perhaps because an open field would allow for their hundreds of spellcasters to pulverize almost any other army in the open? Especially given the fact that the only nations capably of matching them in magic are either far away (Halruaa), divided (Thay), or not interested in fighting them (Aglarond, Cormyr, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, etc). Seriously. So far, no one in this thread has even plausibly asserted how an invading army would even get within bowshot of a full-strength elf army. ( expose to human cavalary), ... Yawn. Walls of Fire stacked side by side and cast right in front of charging groups of heavy cavalry. What's a horse's reaction to fire again? front line clashes( versus dwarven line or orc numerical advantage)? 80-120 feet of movement per round, assuming full out sprinting. I wonder how many rounds of fireballs, lightning bolts, magic missiles, etc., they'd have to run through? The answer is probably somewhere between "too many" and "an altogether deadly amount." You know, it's funny how elven realms have never really fallen to just any opponent in Realms Lore. Come to think of it, they almost never succumb to some random horde. It's almost always an Army of Darkness, a legion of Drow, or an invasion of Devils. I can't put my finger on it. As for exposure to artillery or magic, all do that(maybe stupidly, but that just proves that stupidity does not choose races), so elfs wouldnt fare any worse at that that anybody else. No, you're just assuming that creatures that live for hundreds of centuries and that are led by geniuses would simply march out to be exploded. This opinion is based on what the elfs have showed so far in warfare. For about the 4th-5th time, I'm using this thread to discuss what a REALISTIC elven army would fight like. I don't agree with their depictions in the Last Mythal Trilogy or little else in canon. I'm using their capabilities as described in canon to argue that they could do MUCH BETTER. This could be applied to other races as well (especially Dwarves!) and several human nations to boot.
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 09:50 PM	And you based this opinion on what? I'm not sure how this is not obvious. A conventional army that moves at 10-20 miles per day needs to march for weeks to get from, say, Zhentil Keep to Cormanthyr. It needs to feed its soldiers for every day of that march. It needs to feed its animals for every day of that march. A human soldier generally consumes approximately 4-6lbs of water and food per day of march. A horse would eat 2-3 times the amount of a human, and pack oxen maybe more than that. That all costs money. Now figure out those costs for an army of the appropriate size (10,000 soldiers?), per day. We're talking about 60,000lbs of provisions for just infantrymen, per day. Never mind the provisions for the animals. Now, compare the elves. They can sustain themselves on a few pieces of fruit for a whole day. They don't need a supply train; they probably arrived at their deployed location via Teleportation Circle or some such. Moving ten of the groups I proposed above with such a spell would cost 10,000gp. By contrast, you paid that same conventional army 5,000 gp in trail rations--just for the men, not for the horses--PER DAY, just to eat their way somewhere. Or, assuming you're willing to take the hit, you went out of your way to loot, forage, and otherwise procure food the hard way. Which means you STILL lost tons of money since you're paying these men for all this time regardless. Speaking of which, did the Akh'Velarn even get paid? I somehow doubt it, and I will pose this questions on Candlekeep. Both C:EoE and Fall of Myth Drannor mention economical and political changes in the realm wich arent unlike any observed in a large human realm. Such as? In fact, humans tended to dominate trade in the realm, and elves really were afected by economical changes, has both guides indicate. So yes, even on elven society, war is a expensive activity that drains several resources from it's nation. Describe how.
Philalexandros 05-16-07, 10:14 PM	I don't underdstand why people don't think elves wouldn't use formations just because they risk being injured or killed. Because they can achieve greater results otherwise. In any war the soldiers risk being killed, but that doesn't stop them from fighting. Irrelevant. You're using a human perspective, and one subscribed to mostly by those forces that don't place much stock in their followers' lives. Elves have to worry about century-long maturation processes. Their elite soldiers are the products of centuries' of training and experience. What you propose is about as tactically sound as sending an F-22 stealth fighter to attack a brigade of infantry while flying at landing speed and below 200 feet of altitude. Why do that when you can go supersonic and drop beyond-visual-range high-explosive munitions on them? Now, I understand that elves are adverse to huge losses, so one would think that their melee formations would be more fluid and spread out than their average human equivelant. Try so separated as to force their opponents to themselves break formation and to separate both enemy archers and casters into focusing on different, divided fields of fire. They would not be able to null every enemy mage, i'm sure some woudl be disguised in the ranks, ... Counterspell... Beyond that, I just want to make sure you understand that I too advocate offense. I do so, however, on the promise of coordinated, geographically separated assault groups as described in my earlier post: 1 senior magical officer, 2 junior magical officers, 6 casters, 3-4 champions, and 30-40 infantry--as described in Cormanthyr. I posit that 10 such groups could inflict enough casualties to route a 10,000-man army within minutes.* * Bear in mind that, historically, it has rarely been required for an entire army to have to be destroyed in order to break. Typically, losing 20% of one's force is more than enough to bring about a defeat, and casualties between 40-50% are generally disasters.
boards 05-16-07, 10:33 PM	I don't know about that. I don't really like their depiction of the Lady Durothil (uber conservative to the point of being made obviously 'wrong'), and the way that the only 'Good' Sun Elves were those who went AGAINST the norm. In a way that's a slap in the face to Sun Elven culture. A Sun Elf who DISOBEYS High Magic tradition as the protagonist, and in the end saves the day? Sounds like a Moon Elf, to me... Actually Dan, Lady Durothil didnt turn out as bad as it would seem in the first book. Once she realised what had been accomplished she was willing to be flexible enough to work them into her ideas. Once the first battle was won she wanted to formalise what Lord Miritar had done, and so improve the strength of the army. Lady Veldann on the other hand was moronically conservative. But for whatever reason Lord Miritar wanted to stay independent, thats not really any discredit to Durothils flexibility. Adventuring really seems to be against the norm for Sun Elves, so most sun elves who took part in the crusade are going to be abnormal. Conservative action wasn't going to solve the day in this case. Now that is not to say that Aerevin wasn't strange, and yes slapping the high mages in the face.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 10:37 PM	Exactly... So, like I said, I'd love to see some Sun Elves depicted 'normally'... Though you clearing up a bit about Lady Durothil IS somewhat heartening! Look, I'm not entirely immobile! ;)
DinwathSereglin 05-16-07, 11:42 PM	I think they WOULD use more tactics, and more formations than the typical human army (especially Sun Elves). I just don't think they would resemble the sort of formations as historically depicted during our own medieval period, but be more like our modern warfare. And Ed Greenwood has said as much in one of his answers at Candlekeep regarding the methods in which Elves wage war, tactically. That seems to be a fairly safe assumption, especially once you apply the magic=technology metaphor. Heavy armor became outmoded once firearms developed into efficient killing tools. Heavy armor is useless against mages lobbing fireballs into your ranks. The tightly packed ranks of musket-wielding soldiers disappeared once repeating rifles were developed. Tightly packed ranks of crossbowmen wouldn't fair well against wand-toting spellcasters. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
Prince Indirian 05-17-07, 12:49 AM	[ Darn 2 year gestation periods. *Shakes fist.* Frankly, what with the whole Cormanthyran campaign and the attack on Evereska, I think the Elves' numbers should really be hurting by now. According to RoW that has changed elves are 9 months or wo now. also elves are basically mature (at least mentally) at 25 , though they haven't gained their entire height and weight. Most simply don't start adventuring until they are 110. Also the elves HAVE developed spells that can be used in a forest without "hurting" then forest.In the Fall of Myth Drannor there is "green" (forest friendly) fireball...
Green Elven Vampire 05-17-07, 05:46 AM	Mistake this, problem that, 2ED this, 3ED that, bla, bla... The elven military should be however the DM sees fit in regards to his/her view of elves in the FR. Period.
Boda 05-17-07, 08:12 AM	I could be completely wrong, but I would guess you didn't read it enough. Where did you get those numbers? Yeah, you definitely need to read this again. That's a rather uninformed opinion. Should we really be having this conversation? Even if what you claimed above was true (and it isn't) how the heck do you come up with conclusion? What, you're going to attack a community in the middle of a (potentially) magical forest the same way you would attack a walled castle? From Fall of Myth Drannor. Chapter of C:EoE about money page 63, clearly stated that money plays a important role on elven society; The use of currency like in human states. The use of the yulthaari-promissory notes of payment, indicates the presence of the principle of contracts. The dominance of certain guilds by non elfs(like dwarfs in the gemcutters and humans in merchants) indicates that the system is not so different from others. The Westfields, an area magiclly prepared to the use of adventurers and livestock pasture. The presence of many shops(money for products). The loss of social status among the nobility, sometimes due to bad trade and money loss(just like humans, page 112 of C:EoE). Specific examples as how economics arent so different in elven society are given in the entries of noble Houses, like Ealoeth, Faerondarl, Starym. Point is that if this nobility doesnt gain their wealth in trade, then likely they obtain it by landowning( in a feudalistic system) just like much human nobility. Has for comunity spirit, first is necessary to point that large settlements and small present different pespectives on this subject. While small settlements may present a unity of purpose, this isnt a elven trait, since gnomes, dwarf, halflings and even on occassion human small settlements also present unity of purpose. In the large settlements, i beg to differ, but if you read elven history, political strife is as common as in human history(Crown wars, Gold plots to topple Moon royals of Evermeet, strife between houses in Cormanthyr,etc). No, you misunderstood me, i meant that the same principles of logistic disruption did aplly in both cases. Obviouslly, diferent terrain must be address in diferent ways.
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 09:11 AM	According to RoW that has changed elves are 9 months or wo now. also elves are basically mature (at least mentally) at 25 , though they haven't gained their entire height and weight. Most simply don't start adventuring until they are 110. -Being as that FR canon is in conflict with that Core canon, and these are the Realms, after all, I would rule that that does not apply to the Realms. Also the elves HAVE developed spells that can be used in a forest without "hurting" then forest.In the Fall of Myth Drannor there is "green" (forest friendly) fireball... -That's pretty cool. I need to go combing through there for some spells. In the large settlements, i beg to differ, but if you read elven history, political strife is as common as in human history(Crown wars, Gold plots to topple Moon royals of Evermeet, strife between houses in Cormanthyr,etc). -Political strife is not all and out conflict, though. Not always.[/QUOTE]
Boda 05-17-07, 09:31 AM	Gosh, I wish you'd cite an instance instead of just saying it did! Well, let's see. Perhaps because an open field would allow for their hundreds of spellcasters to pulverize almost any other army in the open? Especially given the fact that the only nations capably of matching them in magic are either far away (Halruaa), divided (Thay), or not interested in fighting them (Aglarond, Cormyr, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, etc). Seriously. So far, no one in this thread has even plausibly asserted how an invading army would even get within bowshot of a full-strength elf army. Yawn. Walls of Fire stacked side by side and cast right in front of charging groups of heavy cavalry. What's a horse's reaction to fire again? 80-120 feet of movement per round, assuming full out sprinting. I wonder how many rounds of fireballs, lightning bolts, magic missiles, etc., they'd have to run through? The answer is probably somewhere between "too many" and "an altogether deadly amount." You know, it's funny how elven realms have never really fallen to just any opponent in Realms Lore. Come to think of it, they almost never succumb to some random horde. It's almost always an Army of Darkness, a legion of Drow, or an invasion of Devils. I can't put my finger on it. No, you're just assuming that creatures that live for hundreds of centuries and that are led by geniuses would simply march out to be exploded. For about the 4th-5th time, I'm using this thread to discuss what a REALISTIC elven army would fight like. I don't agree with their depictions in the Last Mythal Trilogy or little else in canon. I'm using their capabilities as described in canon to argue that they could do MUCH BETTER. This could be applied to other races as well (especially Dwarves!) and several human nations to boot. The last Mythal You are talking of a Cormanthyr-like army arent you? But you are comparing to current existing nations?! So fine! Try Cormanthyr vs Netherill or Current Cormanthyr vs Shade. You always assume that the enemy never has magic to counter your elfs! Yes, in your elven lens pespective on wich your full strenght elven army never faces any serious contenders, your right. Again, you assume that the enemy cant counter, dispel, or do any magical countermessures to your walls. That the cavalary charge is obvious. You know, if you place enough restrictions to scenario, your elven army can win against anyone. Curiously, spell resistance, energy resistance, dispel, countermagic, protection against..., and other buff spells come to mind. This of course, assumng that there are no natural abilities to add to the equation(regeneration, flight, etheralness, spellresistance, imunities, resistances,etc) and that front line troops arent there exactly to waste enemy magic. Funny, i could say the same about magic comparable human realms(netherill, imaskar, narfell, raumanthar, Shoon, Jaamdath,etc). No, i said that they likely wouldnt. ''Led by genius''?! Didnt stoped the Crown wars did it? Karsus was a genius. Where did you got the notion that geniality imunizes against stupidity? Or even that they're genius to begin with? Because of INT scores? And then you telling me to give cannon based examples!? But if you dont agree with cannon, what basis do you have to make your arguments? If you dont agree with cannon depiction of wall of fire, how can you use it?
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 09:34 AM	You are talking of a Cormanthyr-like army arent you? But you are comparing to current existing nations?! So fine! Try Cormanthyr vs Netherill or Current Cormanthyr vs Shade. You always assume that the enemy never has magic to counter your elfs! -Did someone say "Evermeet Vs. Shade" Thread? :P Karsus was a genius. Where did you got the notion that geniality imunizes against stupidity? Or even that they're genius to begin with? Because of INT scores? -'Scuse me? What are you trying to say? That I, and my other thirds, were stupid? :mad:
Boda 05-17-07, 09:36 AM	-Political strife is not all and out conflict, though. Not always.[/QUOTE] True, but since humans nations border each other more often then elven nations, % of conflict increase. That doesnt prove that they are more united in racial trait-like way. For examples of unity, best look to gnomes ,dwarf or even halflings.
Boda 05-17-07, 09:40 AM	-Did someone say "Evermeet Vs. Shade" Thread? :P -'Scuse me? What are you trying to say? That I, and my other thirds, were stupid? :mad: Stupid is someone that makes stupid actions commonly. Karsus didnt, but that doesnt mean that he couldnt. The're drawbacks in using that name, you know.;)
Alediran 05-17-07, 09:41 AM	-'Scuse me? What are you trying to say? That I, and my other thirds, were stupid? :mad: Oh Oh! Not again, I'm still cleaning the dust of the last i**** who ****** off Karsus. True, but since humans nations border each other more often then elven nations, % of conflict increase. That doesnt prove that they are more united in racial trait-like way. For examples of unity, best look to gnomes ,dwarf or even halflings. Elves have an innate mental connection betwen them, two elves who never crossed paths in their lives know more about each other than two humans who lived together many decades. That is the power of Elven Reveire.
Boda 05-17-07, 09:46 AM	Oh Oh! Not again, I'm still cleaning the dust of the last i**** who ****** off Karsus. Elves have an innate mental connection betwen them, two elves who never crossed paths in their lives know more about each other than two humans who lived together many decades. That is the power of Elven Reveire. And yet, they bicker like any others. Drow also have reverie.
Alediran 05-17-07, 09:54 AM	And yet, they bicker like any others. But they are less likely to engange in more than dialog, count how many wars where elf vs elf and compare that number against human vs human. Drow also have reverie. A few do, most don't.
Boda 05-17-07, 10:31 AM	I'm not sure how this is not obvious. Now, compare the elves. They can sustain themselves on a few pieces of fruit for a whole day. They don't need a supply train; they probably arrived at their deployed location via Teleportation Circle or some such. Moving ten of the groups I proposed above with such a spell would cost 10,000gp. By contrast, you paid that same conventional army 5,000 gp in trail rations--just for the men, not for the horses--PER DAY, just to eat their way somewhere. Or, assuming you're willing to take the hit, you went out of your way to loot, forage, and otherwise procure food the hard way. Which means you STILL lost tons of money since you're paying these men for all this time regardless. Speaking of which, did the Akh'Velarn even get paid? I somehow doubt it, and I will pose this questions on Candlekeep. Such as? Describe how. Your assuming Cormanthyr army. Ok, it's cheaper for elf to set a military campaing, but they dont need a suply train? They conjure new arrow and equipment? Feed steads how? They can mass teleport? Others cant? And if they do, why did they kept conventinal comunication lines(messengers)? Dwarven forces generally dont get paid to(they do it for a cause). Neither orc or goblins, or even savage humans.Did the army of Darkness got paid? ''...few could gainsay their manipulation of trade to favour one House over another, and those who objected found disfavour from the powerful friends in the council.'' from fall of myth drannor Similar indications are in same guide on pages 7-9 The ruin of House Ildacer and the loss by debt of the Riirose estate, forced the Srinnala faction(a Harper like group) to move it's headquarters to north of the city. This proves that wealth is vital to maintain this kind of operations even in Cormanthyr. Notes about noble house in C:EoE clearly indicate the importance of land owning to the nobility and it's connection to wealth. Disruption of trade routes. Relocation of resouces to contruction of military use items. By the way, Cormanthyr military is hardly a good example of a elven military since 105% of it's force was non elven, and some of greatest feats performed singlehandedly were by non elfs(elsminster, Khelben, Gaernet, FFlar,etc)
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 10:38 AM	Stupid is someone that makes stupid actions commonly. Karsus didnt, but that doesnt mean that he couldnt. -Trust this 1/3. I/We never did stupid things...;) True, but since humans nations border each other more often then elven nations, % of conflict increase. That doesnt prove that they are more united in racial trait-like way. For examples of unity, best look to gnomes ,dwarf or even halflings. -I was specifically talking about Elven political intrigue. rarely to we see all and out war due to political machinations. Oh Oh! Not again, I'm still cleaning the dust of the last i**** who ****** off Karsus. -Damn straight! :) Drow also have reverie. -Most Drow have actually lost the ability to enter into Reverie. Reverie requires a "communal sense of individuality and community", which most Drow do not have. For the same reason, most Drow cannot cast Elven High Magic. By the way, Cormanthyr military is hardly a good example of a elven military since 105% of it's force was non elven, and some of greatest feats performed singlehandedly were by non elfs(elsminster, Khelben, Gaernet, FFlar,etc) -Captain Starbrow "Fflar" Melruth was, and still is, a Sun Elf male. In the past, he was unlisted, but his gender and race is revealed in the Last Mythal Trilogy.
Alediran 05-17-07, 11:14 AM	And Khelben is 1/4 elf.
BrennonGoldeye 05-17-07, 11:50 AM	By the way, Cormanthyr military is hardly a good example of a elven military since 105% of it's force was non elven, and some of greatest feats performed singlehandedly were by non elfs(elsminster, Khelben, Gaernet, FFlar,etc) Um, I'm going to assume you didn't read the novel. I actually pray you didn't. If you did and still typed the quote above, :rolleyes: .
GothicDan 05-17-07, 10:03 PM	The reason why I feel it's alright to use Cormanthyr's statistics, is because Evermeet was a contemporary with Cormanthyr. In fact, it was a power thousands of years before Cormanthyr, and only very recently was it in any way weakened in power. So, there's no reason to assume that Evermeet had any less power at its disposal than Cormanthyr - if not MORE. The only possible analogy there could be among human nations would be Halruaa. And we've already discussed the idea that Halruaan military tactics would ALSO differ significantly than those of other human nations, and in my opinion, it would be the only nation that could possibly go toe to toe with Evermeet, and utilize similar tactics. Thay would have been potentially in this category, except for the fact that you never get 2 or 3 at most of the Zulkirs actually cooperating with each other.
Prince Indirian 05-17-07, 10:12 PM	-Being as that FR canon is in conflict with that Core canon, and these are the Realms, after all, I would rule that that does not apply to the Realms. Yeah but the lore about elven birth came from the Complete book of Elves. So it's not FR-lore in same way that Cormanthyr is (which is FR). Races of the Wild is the 3E complete book of elves in this case. And it conflicts with the CBoE and not necessarily FR (unless FR has it's own rule on this), since CBoE and FR are diffrent things, even though FR has borrowed stuff from CBoE -Captain Starbrow "Fflar" Melruth was, and still is, a Sun Elf male. In the past, he was unlisted, but his gender and race is revealed in the Last Mythal Trilogy. MOON ELF...
GothicDan 05-17-07, 10:23 PM	No, Fflar was a Sun Elf.
MarkusTay63 05-17-07, 11:22 PM	And Khelben is 1/4 elf.And Elminster is 1/8 Elf.
boards 05-17-07, 11:35 PM	And Elminster is 1/8 Elf. Really? Where does that info come from?
Philalexandros 05-18-07, 12:16 AM	From Fall of Myth Drannor. Cite a page, please. I want to know what you were looking at to get those numbers. You'll note that everyone else was polite enough to do so. :) Chapter of C:EoE about money page 63, clearly stated that money plays a important role on elven society; ... Yes, after the city became "open" to other races. When dealing with non-elven merchants. Beyond that, you still haven't proven an economic effect on such a society. Did you perchance miss the part on that same page that stated there's hardly any trade with outside nations? In the large settlements, i beg to differ, but if you read elven history, political strife is as common as in human history(Crown wars, Gold plots to topple Moon royals of Evermeet, strife between houses in Cormanthyr,etc). Way to cite the exception to the rule. The Crown Wars happened more than 10,000 years ago and were largely propogated due to the influences of alien agents. Principally, the legacy of elves is peaceful co-existence and cooperation with one another. Most recently, Evermeet's forces saw the need to defend Evereska and to re-take Myth Drannor.
Philalexandros 05-18-07, 12:32 AM	You are talking of a Cormanthyr-like army arent you? But you are comparing to current existing nations?! No, you just assumed I did. Please read my posts more thoroughly; I use Cormanthyr as a basis for my argument because, in Races of Faerun, it is specifically referred to as having been created to be a more peaceful culture than the previous elven states. Despite the fact that her armies could crush most of the canon nations we know of, they were not as powerful as those of her predecessors. Since Ed Greenwood confirmed the fact that the expertise and equipment of the average Elven soldier hasn't changed since C:EoE, I assume that present-day elf forces from Evereska and Evermeet will have, on the average, equivalent capabilities. I didn't bother to address the other paragraphs simply because there was no real need to. That is, unless you want to argue a specific, contemporary example that actually has a shot at being plausible? No, i said that they likely wouldnt. ''Led by genius''?! Uhm, yes. The leaders of Evereska were highly intelligent elders and High Magi. The leader of the crusade to retake Myth Drannor was the foremost cleric of Corellon and known for his wisdom. By contrast... Didnt stoped the Crown wars did it? We don't know how intelligent the leaders of House Vyshaan were. I'm not automatically insinuating that they were idiots, per se, but note that they ruled prior to the use of Elfblades or Moonblades to select suitable rulers. Also, please note once more that evil deities and incredibly powerful outsiders were a primary catalyst for the continuation and escalation of that conflict. Or even that they're genius to begin with? Because of INT scores? Because I checked their stats (or implied stats at any rate) in some cases (say, the Coronal), and realized the mathematical implications for others. A sun elf High Mage without any magical items will have at least an INT of 18--that's assuming he rolled a 10 for his INT. You really like to jump at assumptions, don't you? And then you telling me to give cannon based examples!? But if you dont agree with cannon, what basis do you have to make your arguments? If you dont agree with cannon depiction of wall of fire, how can you use it? I don't even know what you're talking about here, Boda. I never disagreed with the use of game mechanics (Wall of Fire). Nor did I disagree with the majority canon material of FR itself (though I might assert some events as described are a tad unrealistic). What I am challenging in this thread is the unrealistic depiction of battle tactics used by different races. Incidentally, if you're going to address my argument point by point, please use the quote feature to do so. It's a real headache to go back and try to match up what you're saying with what I did. Thanks. :)
Philalexandros 05-18-07, 12:46 AM	Your assuming Cormanthyr army. See earlier post... Ok, it's cheaper for elf to set a military campaing, but they dont need a suply train? No, not really. Do you know what a supply train is? They conjure new arrow and equipment? I don't see why they would have to. Teleportation spells can allow for instantaneous transportation of reasonable amounts of equipment. The inherently small nature of elf forces makes this possible. Feed steads how? Feed what? They can mass teleport? Yes, they can. Teleport Circle is a spell that any powerful enough wizard integrated into an army would have. Being that even Cormanthyr, whose forces would not have been as numerous as those of more aggressive elf realms, had around 50 senior officers capable of casting that spell, I'd say that's quite a feasible way of going to battle. Others cant? Most can't. At least not in similar numbers. The only contemporary enemy of the elves with numerically similar (but nowhere equal) magical power are the Thayans. Their own internal strife prevents them from fielding the forces necessary to even threaten an Evereska or a Myth Drannor. United, they would indeed merit the attention of Evermeet. And if they do, why did they kept conventinal comunication lines(messengers)? In many cases, they don't. Sending and messaging magic is far more common than mass transport spells. Dwarven forces generally dont get paid to(they do it for a cause). Neither orc or goblins, or even savage humans.Did the army of Darkness got paid? You're being kind of silly here. Orcs and goblins do fight for loot. The Army of Darkness was compelled into service and had natural inclinations to go after the elves. Not that this point is really meaningful or anything. If Greenwood agrees that elf soldiers don't get paid, that just further kills your theory of war having an economic impact on elves. This proves that wealth is vital to maintain this kind of operations even in Cormanthyr. Notes about noble house in C:EoE clearly indicate the importance of land owning to the nobility and it's connection to wealth. Once more, these things happened in integrated, open societies. Not in closed, elven societies. Disruption of trade routes. What trade routes? Relocation of resouces to contruction of military use items. Successfully done during the Fall of Myth Drannor. By the way, Cormanthyr military is hardly a good example of a elven military since 105% of it's force was non elven, ... Try again. That would mean that there were no elf soldiers, and that 5% of the non-elf soldiers were even less than that. Of course, the above is blatantly false. Only 10% of the population was non-elven to begin with. Even if they ALL enlisted, and no other elves joined up, mathematically speaking only 60% of the force would be non-elven (given the 4,000 who were already elves). and some of greatest feats performed singlehandedly were by non elfs(elsminster, Khelben, Gaernet, FFlar,etc) OK, I could make the same statement and inject (Eltagrim, Shrinshee, etc.). And Fflar was an elf.
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 06:14 AM	-Most Drow have actually lost the ability to enter into Reverie. Reverie requires a "communal sense of individuality and community", which most Drow do not have. For the same reason, most Drow cannot cast Elven High Magic. [/I]Trilogy. I believed they cast High Magic in Lady Petulant? - Didn't know that thing about Reverie, where is it mentioned? (Not trying to say you're lying, just curious=) )
ShadezofDis 05-18-07, 08:24 AM	You know, I just thought of something. If Corellon Larethian "approves" all high magic rituals, then, in essence, he gave the go ahead for a lot of the high magic disasters. Not sure what the implications of that would be, but I don't think he should get of scot-free.
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 08:40 AM	You know, I just thought of something. If Corellon Larethian "approves" all high magic rituals, then, in essence, he gave the go ahead for a lot of the high magic disasters. Not sure what the implications of that would be, but I don't think he should get of scot-free. Aye, but he might be wanting the Elves to learn. If it destroys a few human cities, it's a bonus!
Boda 05-18-07, 09:14 AM	Cite a page, please. I want to know what you were looking at to get those numbers. You'll note that everyone else was polite enough to do so. :) FoMD page 16 [/QUOTE]Yes, after the city became "open" to other races. When dealing with non-elven merchants.[/QUOTE] Please state your source. [/QUOTE]Beyond that, you still haven't proven an economic effect on such a society. Did you perchance miss the part on that same page that stated there's hardly any trade with outside nations?[/QUOTE] FoMD page 21-destruction of outposts of trade importance. [/QUOTE]Way to cite the exception to the rule. The Crown Wars happened more than 10,000 years ago and were largely propogated due to the influences of alien agents. Principally, the legacy of elves is peaceful co-existence and cooperation with one another. Most recently, Evermeet's forces saw the need to defend Evereska and to re-take Myth Drannor.[/QUOTE] And i like to cite exceptions?!
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 09:51 AM	Yeah but the lore about elven birth came from the Complete book of Elves. So it's not FR-lore in same way that Cormanthyr is (which is FR). Races of the Wild is the 3E complete book of elves in this case. And it conflicts with the CBoE and not necessarily FR (unless FR has it's own rule on this), since CBoE and FR are diffrent things, even though FR has borrowed stuff from CBoE -A good point you raise. Here's what I think: The Complete Book of Elves has been already heavily integrated into the Realms. It has become, in a way, a de facto FR Sourcebook. Races of the Wild is a core D&D book, and has yet to become integrated into the Realms. Until that time, I would say that the information from the Complete Book of Elves trumps the information in Races of the Wild concerning things that no true FR supplements touch on. I believed they cast High Magic in Lady Petulant? -Yes, yes they did. But, note that I said 'most'. Apparently, the Drow Wizards/Clerics who cast the spell has achieved the communal mind necessary for casting Elven High Magic. I don't completely buy it. -Firstly, Corellon Larethian approves of all castings of High Magic. Why would he approve a bunch of malevolent Drow to cast Elven High Magic? The only way I can see this is that, in doing so, he is allowing his own prophecy concerning Vhaeraun attacking Eilistraee to come true ("The Day you lay a hand on her will be your last"). -Secondly, none of the characters casting the "Elven High Magic" really looked capable of doing so. Did any of them look "Epic" to you? -It is of my opinion that the Drow in question did not cast Elven High Magic, but were simply dabbling with Epic Magic that they believed was Elven High Magic. Didn't know that thing about Reverie, where is it mentioned? (Not trying to say you're lying, just curious=) ) -I believe it was mentioned in the Starlight and Shadows (Liriel Baenre and Fyodor) trilogy.
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 09:58 AM	By the way, quotes look like this.. And i like to cite exceptions?! not this.. [/quote]And i like to cite exceptions?![/quote] And in answer to the question. Yes. :D
ShadezofDis 05-18-07, 09:59 AM	Aye, but he might be wanting the Elves to learn. If it destroys a few human cities, it's a bonus! :rofl: Well said!
Alediran 05-18-07, 10:02 AM	And i like to cite exceptions?! Yes you do. The Crown Wars where the exception to the rule, it's mentioned on many sources. Elven chapter of Races of Faerûn for example. What Phil is telling you are not the exeptions but the norm. At the begining of the war against the Army of Darkness (wich was a part of the weeping war, not the weeping war itself) Myth Drannor counted with the powers of 3 Chosens of Mystra (Elminster, the Nameless Chosen, who became Khelben Arunsun, and Lady Symmrustar), two Grand Mages (Elven High Mages), Spell-Mayor Josidiah Starym, many dragons, never mentioned by Phil, among them Garnet and the Silver Dragon who mentored him, both of them destroying a large portion of the Army of Darkness during a reckless charge atempted by Garnet when he discovered he was partialy responsible of the invasion. Or the battle when the second nycaloth was killed by a half-dwarf (don't remember his name), a perfectly laid trap by Cormanthyr forces who first harrased the army with well positioned traps, destroying any semblance of order among them and blinding them of the trap. Half the army of Darkness was destroyed by 40 strikes of Mithrall Hammers. The army of Cormanthyr was defeated only because they failed to organize faster (if you see the chapter of battles you can see that the begining was a constant victory for the invading forces), and didn't take advantage of some situations (if Garnet's suicidal charge was supported by troops the trio nefarious could have ben completely defeated that day). Even with all that the Army of Darkness neither won, the three nycaloths were killed and the army disintegrated into a mindless horde (most of them became the random encounters in Myth Drannor). That shows you the powerfull army that Cormanthyr had, even with such odds against them they weren't truly defeated by the Army of Darkness, instead of loosing, it was a tie, and eventualy (thanks to the Elven Crusade) turned that tie into victory.
ShadezofDis 05-18-07, 10:07 AM	By the way, quotes look like this.. Originally Posted by Boda And i like to cite exceptions?! not this.. [/ quote]And i like to cite exceptions?![/ quote] And in answer to the question. Yes. :D And in order to get your quotes to look like that you need to remove the / from your first [/quote] bracket. I believe the various codes for the board are in the Forum FAQ.
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 10:16 AM	Or you could just copy the quote you want, click that little bubble directly above your reply message, copy the quote, and insert "=posters name here" inside the first set of brakets. Gosh that sounds complicated. It really isn't, once ya get used to doing it.
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 11:21 AM	Yes, I did make a fool of myself when I thought I could handle epic magic. Everybody knows only the elves, the sun elves in particular, are capable and responsible enough for this. A bit like that, eh?
GothicDan 05-18-07, 11:34 AM	Not sure what the implications of that would be, but I don't think he should get of scot-free. He's a Chaotic Good God. That means he mostly just lets his followers do as they will with his tools, and let's them walk the path they will. (The Ilythiiri and Aryvandaari, for instance.) And besides, he's a DvR 19 Greater God. Who the heck's going to punish him!?
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 11:49 AM	Yes, I did make a fool of myself when I thought I could handle epic magic. Everybody knows only the elves, the sun elves in particular, are capable and responsible enough for this. A bit like that, eh? Oh my.:uh-huh: Not the example I would have used. But yes, like that. ;) He's a Chaotic Good God. That means he mostly just lets his followers do as they will with his tools, and let's them walk the path they will. (The Ilythiiri and Aryvandaari, for instance.) Couldn't have said it better myself. And besides, he's a DvR 19 Greater God. Who the heck's going to punish him!? Spot on. I have chaotic hopes for you yet Daniel. ;)
MarkusTay63 05-18-07, 12:14 PM	I think you guys are completely missing some of the smaller details that would differentiate an Elven military from a human one. Their uniforms would be simply stunning! Really? Where does that info come from?Dragon magazine, issue #228, pg.27: Elminster's paternal garndmother, Syndrel Hornweather, was half-elven. She married King Uthgrael Aumer in 188 DR and gave birth to seven sons, one of whom was Elthryn Aumer, born in 192 DR. Elthryn married Amyrthale Goldsheaf, and they had a son named Elminster in 212 DR. 'Nuff Said. ;)
GothicDan 05-18-07, 12:18 PM	Spot on. I have chaotic hopes for you yet Daniel. Only when unmedicated! Which is during all of the summer. Oh snap.
Boda 05-18-07, 12:56 PM	Funny. So Karsus, about Fflar, i didnt know that he was stated as a elf. So my mistake. Khelben and Elsminster are still human, right? My point was that non elfs gave a important contribution to the defense of cormanthyr. What i meant was that 10% of the military was non elven, not 105%. My mistake. About elven economics: So far, i've defended that elven economics in large settlements follows a system not so different from human feudalism (land owning nobility). This opinion is supported by cannon based facts in C:EoE, FoMD, and even FRCS. Of course, this apllies to cormanthyr, not necessarily to evermeet, but since there's not cannon based facts that say otherwise, and all depictions of evermeet society arent so different from other large elven societies, there's no reason for considering that economical model isnt the same. The position that defends that in evermeet there's no use of currency(present only on mixed elven/non elven nations), raises a lot of questions: Craftsmen, commoners dont receive a payment for their services? What the purpose of nobles owning large estates? How do nobles access more wealth then commoners? Curiously, when i defended trade in cormanthyr, some questioned the existance of such trade routes, but when i questioned how elven comunities got products not available in their home territories, some said trade with other races. So what is it then? Reguarding Elven politics: Curiously, when i mentioned the crown wars as a examples against elven unity, i was criticized for citing exceptions, but when the elven crusade was mentioned as a examples of elven unity, none noted that it is also a exception. As for elven unity, many compare it to human unity. That's a easy way, since humans could perfect examples of lack of it. So are elfs more united then humans?Yes, they are. Are elfs more united then gnomes,halflings or even dwarfs? No, they're not. So this elven unity isnt a such great and unique acomplishment. Now, some have said that very rarely elfs war on each other.True. By this, i must assume that to some people, political plots, murder, conspiracy arent symptons of lack of deep racial unity. This drives me to conclued that my concept of unity is very different from yours. Reguarding Elven military: So by Philaxandros example, a strong elven army( maybe 10000 strong) based on the stats of cormanthyr military, could defeat another equally large force in a open field battle. Of couse, the example also contained other ''rules'', that is that forces that could match in magic this force(Halruaa,Thay,Waterdeep,etc), wouldnt or couldnt engage on said battle(for various reasons). So what's left? The enemy would be in a position of magic resources inferiority, troops quality inferiority(since the average elven troop is of higher level and better discipline that of most other races), equipement inferiority(since elven craftmanship is notably superior to most other races),logistic inferiority(since elf dont need supplies or cant makes them with magic), possible leadership inferiority(since elven armies are lead by ''geniuses'') wich translates in a strategic and tatics inferiority, so the only advantage that this enemy could have is numbers. Resuming, a superior elven force would face a inferior enemy force and win. Is anyone surprised by the result? The point of this example is...?
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 01:04 PM	I would say the point is don't mess with your elders.:P
GothicDan 05-18-07, 01:09 PM	Here is where I stare at some of Boda's conclusions, slack-jawed. I think this is another one of those, "I look at X and call it blue, and you call it red, for no apparent reason" arguments.
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 01:24 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by Karsus Yes, I did make a fool of myself when I thought I could handle epic magic. Everybody knows only the elves, the sun elves in particular, are capable and responsible enough for this. - :ahem: (P.S.: I was using true, Mundane magic, not Epic Magic...;) ) So Karsus, about Fflar, i didnt know that he was stated as a elf. So my mistake. -Yep. Khelben and Elsminster are still human, right? -As was already mentioned, Khelben and Elminster are both Human and Elf. Khelben was possessing 1/4 Elf blood, while Elminster is possessing 1/8 Elf blood.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 01:39 PM	And Khelben had a special relation with Sehanine Moonbow (ELVEN goddess), and both were Chosen of Mystra. I really wouldn't consider them just "humans."
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 04:47 PM	- :ahem: (P.S.: I was using true, Mundane magic, not Epic Magic...;) ) True! Here's the spell you used too! Karsus's Avatar Karsus's Avatar Enchantment/Charm‚ Alteration) (Invocation/Evocation‚ Level: 12 Field: Mentalism Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 6 hours Saving Throw: Special Range: Unlimited Duration: Unlimited Area of Effect: One god Karsus spent well over a decade researching this spell. It was so complex that he had to use a stone-filled gizzard of a gold dragon and part of the epidermis of the pituitary gland of the tarrasque just to enchant one of the material components of the spell. This spell allowed the caster to become a god of his choosing, replacing a current god with himself the moment the spell was completed. Whether the gods received a saving throw, were aware of its casting, and other factors were unknown. The notes regarding the spell’s essence were nowhere to be found. It’s believed Mystra, the reincarnated form of Mystryl, snatched the spell information from the ruins of Karsus’s enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe. 2nd edition, I know... but still!
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 05:11 PM	True! Here's the spell you used too! Karsus's Avatar Karsus's Avatar Enchantment/Charm‚ Alteration) (Invocation/Evocation‚ Level: 12 Field: Mentalism... -Correction. That's the version that Mystra and the MaskedOne want everyone to believe I used. :incog:
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 05:23 PM	Pfsch. You lost your notes again, didn't you!?
MaskedOne 05-19-07, 01:43 PM	-Correction. That's the version that Mystra and the MaskedOne want everyone to believe I used. :incog: Something like that yes. I didn't particularly like the original, too many ideas that could be effectively modified by modern wizards to get themselves in more trouble than I can easily get Toril out of. The more common interpretation is safer to let out in public.
Philalexandros 05-19-07, 05:31 PM	FoMD page 16 Page 16 says nothing about the numbers of the elf forces. Page 15, on the other hand, states that the numbers of Akh'Velarn and Akh'Faer nearly quintupled. The charts on the next page kind of reinforce that, since totalling up four legions at full strength would bring the force to just over 15,000. So I'd say your Akh'Velarn numbers are off. Please state your source. Certainly. Page 63 details the amount of trade Myth Drannor was involved in: "Myth Drannor and indeed many of the settlements of Cormanthyr are crossroads of trade, though mostly among themselves, with only a few inroads to external trade..." So, to begin with, there was little trade with outsiders. How can I qualify that? Because, aside from Myth Drannor, there were only two other sizeable communities--none larger than 2,500 or so individuals (and that one was where the very young and very old of Myth Drannor stayed--not an independent community, per se). Thus, the idea of war affecting Myth Drannor's trade routes and economy is simply an illusion. Myth Drannor didn't depend on outside commerce, and the other elf communities were too small to ultimately matter. Again, page 63 details the currency of the realm: "Myth Drannor's coins are newer than the others, only stamped and made since the raising of the mythal, ..." The raising of the mythal corresponded with the opening of the city to non-elves. The coming of non-elves corresponded with the need to use coins for trade. Heck, different coins even have different connotations, often with a racist slant. FoMD page 21-destruction of outposts of trade importance. There's a big difference between something being important to trade and trade being of importance. As shown earlier, there was little external trade. There's no doubt that this affected the trade, but it didn't affect Cormanthyr's ability to wage a war. As shown in Fall of Myth Drannor, the elves' efforts only became stronger as the war went on.
Philalexandros 05-19-07, 06:07 PM	About elven economics: So far, i've defended that elven economics in large settlements follows a system not so different from human feudalism (land owning nobility). You couldn't be more wrong. Human feudalism is dependant on slave-like labor of serfs who are obligated to work on land that is not theirs. By contrast, elves view arable land as communal property, and work on the community's orchards and gardens as necessary in addition to their own private "stashes." They are under no obligation to serve under nobility and are apparently free to come and go--as mitigated by their personal loyalties and their society's expectations of them. The maintenance of nobility is generational (like that of humans), but ascension to nobility is generally meritocratic--in the sense that families become powerful via the deeds and personally accumulated power of their members. A powerful elf wizard, for example, will never truly be poor--he will be able to raise his own tower through magic, summon minions to do his biddings, defend his lands against interlopers, etc. His family will likewise prosper through him. Other elves come to him for protection, guidance, and leadership. Thus, a House is born. This opinion is supported by cannon based facts in C:EoE, FoMD, and even FRCS. So far, you've gotten numbers wrong, cited passages completely out of context, and ignored plainly stated passages that refute what you say. Of course, this apllies to cormanthyr, not necessarily to evermeet, but since there's not cannon based facts that say otherwise, and all depictions of evermeet society arent so different from other large elven societies, there's no reason for considering that economical model isnt the same. Uhm, no. Cormanthyr/Myth Drannor's economic system was different precisely because it incorporated non-elves. Its political climate was different precisely because it incorporated non-elves. Its mode of selecting leadership was completely different, in that it relied on elfblades choosing the Coronal, Spell Major, and Arms Major--none of which are positions in Evermeet. Craftsmen, commoners dont receive a payment for their services? They do, but not necessarily in terms of coined wealth. What the purpose of nobles owning large estates? Again, you're focused on a human concept. Nobles among elves don't "own" large estates. They technically "own" the land their manors, towers, and personal abodes are on, but they don't own huge swathes of farm land and hunting grounds. The phenomenon of restricted use of land again only manifested in Cormanthyr when non-elves came about and racism reared its ugly head. How do nobles access more wealth then commoners? It depends on the family and its background. Wealth could be gathered via adventuring. Wealth could be gathered via magic. Wealth could be gathered via exploration. The Alastrarra clan from Cormanthyr had two wizards in it of level 24 or higher in just the immediate family. Can you imagine what kind of resources you could generate if your were a level 24 or 29 wizard? Curiously, when i defended trade in cormanthyr, some questioned the existance of such trade routes, but when i questioned how elven comunities got products not available in their home territories, some said trade with other races. So what is it then? There's no black and white answer--that's precisely it. Cormanthyr doesn't have much external trade. Why? Because it doesn't need it. It has literally dozens upon dozens of archmages and high magi who lead its various Houses and their enterprises. A smaller community, though (say, less than a thousand individuals), won't have as many powerful notables to self-sustain it. They might have friendly relations, alliances, and trade agreements with neighbors. Look at the Silver Marches, for example. The region is home to over 200,000 elves and Silverymoon was built in cooperation with them. There are no sizeable communities mentioned, though. Its' almost certain that they trade with nearby humans and dwarves, with whom they've been friends and allies for generations. Curiously, when i mentioned the crown wars as a examples against elven unity, i was criticized for citing exceptions, but when the elven crusade was mentioned as a examples of elven unity, none noted that it is also a exception. Probably because you don't have to march in someone's defense to be their friend. You just proved that elven realms aren't invaded by foreign invaders but once or twice a millenium. The bottom line is that, Crown Wars aside, there have been very very few conflicts between the elves in their 20,000+ year history. As for elven unity, many compare it to human unity. No, you just did. Reguarding Elven military: So by Philaxandros example, a strong elven army( maybe 10000 strong) based on the stats of cormanthyr military, could defeat another equally large force in a open field battle. Again, depending on the enemy. Of couse, the example also contained other ''rules'', that is that forces that could match in magic this force(Halruaa,Thay,Waterdeep,etc), wouldnt or couldnt engage on said battle(for various reasons). They're not "rules", Boda. They're common sense. Halruaa and Waterdeep have no REASON to fight the Elves. Thay simply can't match them because they're not UNITED enough to do so (that, and all of the Zulkirs put together couldn't defeat Cormanthyr's array of lvl 20+ wizards, never mind the 53+ High Mages abroad) So what's left? The enemy would be in a position of magic resources inferiority, troops quality inferiority(since the average elven troop is of higher level and better discipline that of most other races), equipement inferiority(since elven craftmanship is notably superior to most other races),logistic inferiority(since elf dont need supplies or cant makes them with magic), possible leadership inferiority(since elven armies are lead by ''geniuses'') wich translates in a strategic and tatics inferiority, so the only advantage that this enemy could have is numbers. Resuming, a superior elven force would face a inferior enemy force and win. Is anyone surprised by the result? The point of this example is...? Hey, I wonder why hardly anyone invades the elven realms? Oh, wait, thanks Boda! You just stated the obvious. ;) The whole PURPOSE of this thread was to discuss more realistic battle tactics for the elves... The existing end result is rather obvious and well-documented, but, again, thanks for reiterating it.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 06:43 PM	The maintenance of nobility is generational (like that of humans), but ascension to nobility is generally meritocratic--in the sense that families become powerful via the deeds and personally accumulated power of their members. A powerful elf wizard, for example, will never truly be poor--he will be able to raise his own tower through magic, summon minions to do his biddings, defend his lands against interlopers, etc. His family will likewise prosper through him. Other elves come to him for protection, guidance, and leadership. Thus, a House is born. Also, Races of Faerun notes that even the lowest Sun Elven House will have a replete library at its disposal. That's not something indicative of a family that's a member of a feudal society.
msatran 05-20-07, 12:49 AM	Well, to talk about The Last Mythal trilogy for a moment, I utterly despised the tactics that were used in that. They made NO sense at all. As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to fight THAT MANY Demons, you might as well go home. That's why I have a problem with the whole series, really. Because of this spell. Unholy Blight. That's right. That's it. Unless the average troop in the army is LEVEL 10, everyone dies by round 2 or so. If you have the number of demons these guys had, you target their leaders and their areas with unholy blight, and darn the number of saves they make. 1 in 20 rule will take them down. (That states that if you roll 20 saves, one of them will be a 1.) Most of these people are good, so you're talking about 22 points of damage 20 times. Even if they auto the other 19 saves, that's 231 points of damage in a 40 foot radius. Starbrow and most of the other elven troop units should have been PASTE! And that's if you have about 60 of these guys.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:19 AM	Obviously the summoning somehow made the demons dumber...
Lord Karsus 05-20-07, 02:11 AM	Obviously the summoning somehow made the demons dumber... -Well, you think the smart demons wanted to leave the..."comfort" of the Abyss to go fight someone else's war?
msatran 05-20-07, 02:13 AM	Karsus, it's just that if I know I'm going to be shot at by good aligned creatures with pointy objects and spells, I'm going to want to kill them as quickly as possible. People forget that even a hezrou with it's whopping 10 INT has been alive for centuries and can draw upon centuries of battlefield experience.
MaskedOne 05-20-07, 02:13 AM	The Crusade had extensive support from clerical orders and experienced adventurers. Unholy Blight being such an obvious tactic was probably first on the list for clerics to defend against with spell immunity which can counter defend against spells or spell-like abilities of level 4 or lower (yes Unholy Blight fits the description and oh good Corellon and sweet Mystra, Spell Immunity can be stuck in a wand). So let's the give the elven army half the brain we want to give the demons here for a moment. Demons drop into range, launch Unholy Blight against that rather visible command post which by the way was a trap, watch it fail and then got shot at by every archer with blessed arrows in range. I won't deny the possibility of tactical problems with how Baker set things up but could we at least put some effort into this rather than looking at one cute but easily blocked ability and claiming the entire army is dead by round 2.
msatran 05-20-07, 02:16 AM	Uh, if the elves had that much money, there wouldn't be any treasure left anywhere in Faerun. A wand of Spell Immunity with 50 charges costs 22,500 gp. You've protected 50 people. Out of 10,000. And even if you do just the commanders, most of the meat troops will die. Battles are won by slaughtering the flunkies and controlling territory. Have you ever actually seen an SCA battle or what it looks like? Let me tell you, there is no way that the "I tappa wanda" tactic can work.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:34 AM	The question is, with the combat, was it ever mentioned that the spellcasters were aptly countering the fiends' magic?
MaskedOne 05-20-07, 02:57 AM	Shrug, paying full price for each of the 200 wands that would be required to cover every elf in the Crusade twice over takes a little under 5 million gp. Basically, it takes a little under 2 thirds of the starting wealth attributed if you decide to create one level 35 character. One well off nation is more than capable of shelling out the money necessary to keep sizable fragments of Evermeet's army defended at any given time. Since there were not normally more than a couple hundred fiends and not all of them could actually use unholy blight, I'm not quite convinced that say the purely personal wealth of El, the Simbul and Telamont is beyond the Crusade's abilities.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:58 AM	Evermeet did not officially support the war, I thought, and thus did not give it proper funding, magic, reinforcements, etc.?
MaskedOne 05-20-07, 03:07 AM	The question is, with the combat, was it ever mentioned that the spellcasters were aptly countering the fiends' magic? I know off hand that the use of protective magic by Silverymoon's forces in the one major engagement they were in was mentioned and that battle was a decisive victory. I'm gonna be worried if the rest of the good guys can't do the same.
MaskedOne 05-20-07, 03:15 AM	Evermeet did not officially support the war, I thought, and thus did not give it proper funding, magic, reinforcements, etc.? True but not vital. Evereska while not particularly health is a nation and more than one powerful organization or wealthy character lent support or brought personal equipment. It would of course have been easier with Evermeet's support but I doubt it was necessary. Side note: GD, my responses are running slower than yours. I'm not deliberately bypassing posts, in case my response pattern looks odd.
Derren S. 05-20-07, 07:35 AM	So far, you've gotten numbers wrong, cited passages completely out of context, and ignored plainly stated passages that refute what you say. So how are those passages read correctly? To me it looks more like you are denying everything which doesn't fit with your personal interpretation of elves (which is imo quite rediculous as you are basically say that elves can do everything).
Philalexandros 05-20-07, 10:28 AM	So how are those passages read correctly? To me it looks more like you are denying everything which doesn't fit with your personal interpretation of elves (which is imo quite rediculous as you are basically say that elves can do everything). Thanks for asking, Derren. To me, getting numbers right means that when you say "on page 16 of Fall of Myth Drannor it says there are 23,000+ Akh'Velarn"... there's actually something on page 16 of that product that says what you assert. When I go to that page and find out that his data is only 50% correct and on a different page at that, I'd call that getting one's numbers wrong. It also makes me doubt someone's ability to argue more esoteric concepts, like the workings of a society or its economic model. Citing passages completely out of context (again, this is going by my own horribly biased standards) would be taking a statement that doesn't really support your argument but claiming that it does. This would be like taking a single line from Fall of Myth Drannor that states that outposts of trade importance were destroyed and using it as evidence that disruption of trade would ill-affect Cormanthyr's ability to wage a war. Sounds fair, right? Well, not when you ignore the fact that Cormanthyr's external trade is minimal, and that its internal trade between Myth Drannor and several tiny villages is hardly integral to its continuing existence. And, finally, we come to ignoring plainly stated passages. To me, that's like someone telling me that Cormanthyr's economy IS like that of the humans, using that "fact" as a basis for ALL elf economy being like that of humans, citing a document as being in support of said assertion, and then completely ignoring the opening salvo on the chapter about economy that ruins his claims. As for me imagining the elves can do anything? Derren, we're talking about a society that had been in existence for close to five thousand years, led by dozens of individuals wielding epic power. Five thousand years of epic and near-epic magic being used for the improvement and maintenance of one society, Derren. Think about it. They even have a High Magic ritual in C:EoE for making magic windows that allow summer breezes in. And you're going to tell me they sweat the material components? Come on! ;)
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:26 PM	True but not vital. Evereska while not particularly health is a nation and more than one powerful organization or wealthy character lent support or brought personal equipment. It would of course have been easier with Evermeet's support but I doubt it was necessary. Side note: GD, my responses are running slower than yours. I'm not deliberately bypassing posts, in case my response pattern looks odd. That's okay. :) And, I'll reserve my judgment on the possibility of having hundreds (thousands?) of Wands of Spell Immunity... It seems just a little far fetched that they'd have those specific Wands ready in such large quantity, cost aside.
MaskedOne 05-20-07, 02:26 PM	Shrug, I'd like to give them approximately 1000 but that's both potentially quite unrealistic and actually overkill. There were only several hundred demons present at a time. Not all them were actually capable of using unholy blight and they actually did have roles in the battle that allowed to the Crusade to match forces of its own choosing against them to a limited degree especially if as was pulled early in the conflict, they were setting up specific traps to draw in the fiends at points of their choosing along the line or late in the conflict when they had a very odd form of teleport ward. I don't need to defend 5000 elven troops just set good traps and defend maybe 1000. Actually my preference is to skip the toys all together and give them 5 epic wizards to just ward several hundred yard radius areas wherever convenient but the lack of known High Mage support or stated mage set teleport shields means that my options here are distinctly limited in ways that I don't like. I'd also prefer 40 days of prep time so the Crusade could just make the wands I want at half the price but the timeline that Baker provided doesn't seem to give me that much. I have a variety of my own problems with what Baker set up but I think taking out a well equipped force of 5000 led by people who know what the enemy can do should take a bit more than a 60 fiends tossing Unholy Blight which is what Msatran said was about what it'd take.
msatran 05-20-07, 09:23 PM	Well, apparently, thanks to you, I have 600, so let the 1 in 20 rule reign! I strongly urge you to understand that the way these books are written is to appeal to the Non-D+D playing fantasy reader. They don't really take into account the mechanics, at all. The list of stupid archmages is legendary in these books. No stoneskin on a regular basis? Sure! No problem! No contingent spells for characters with the FEAT ON THEIR LIST OR IN THE LORE? SURE! No problem! Whatever meets the needs of the story. !@#$%@! their character development or any of the things some DM might be in the middle of. Thanks to Farthest Reach, I actually got PLAYER complaints! TONS of them. I've never gotten player complaints over something I didn't DO before. That should give you an idea of how angry my players were.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 10:40 PM	I'd complain, Msatran. Heh.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 09:31 AM	-I wish I had players who actually thought...:rolleyes:
Stigger 05-21-07, 11:09 AM	This is why I avoid novels in general, with a few exceptions...
MarkusTay63 05-21-07, 12:55 PM	Thank GOD my players know absolutely nothing about mechanics, FR, or anything outside of a good fantasy flick. They NEVER read novels either, so basically I can get away with anything (and have). Like using all of my old GH stuff in FR. :D I do try to encourage them to read more, however, since two of them are my kids. :rolleyes:
Kelmech_Ra 05-21-07, 01:55 PM	No, Fflar was a Sun Elf. No he wasn't. He was a moon elf.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:02 PM	... No. He was totally, 100%, a Sun Elf. There's no discussion about that fact.
Kelmech_Ra 05-21-07, 02:05 PM	... No. He was totally, 100%, a Sun Elf. There's no discussion about that fact. No! Flar was a moon elf, he is desribed countless times as a tall, well-built, handsmome moon elf. Seiveral, Arevain (sp on these names, Arevain's fiance, are all sun elves, but Flar is a moon elf.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:16 PM	Everyone I know who has read the novels has called him a Sun Elf... But I haven't read the trilogy. So, I'm not going to argue it. Maybe I'm hallucinating!
Elven Avenger 05-21-07, 03:31 PM	Well, in any other sources he can be anything, but in The Last Mythal Trilogy, he is a Moon Elf, for sure.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 03:36 PM	People lied to me, apparently. LK, I want a divorce. Though I really do seem to remember Rich naming him a Moon Elf at Candlekeep! Darn it, am I making up memories in my old age?
MaskedOne 05-21-07, 04:19 PM	People were probably confusing characters or writing vaguely. Most of the major elven characters in Last Mythal were Sun Elves. Flar was a moon elf complete with moonblade.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:27 PM	*Twitches.* NO MORE MOONBLADES. THEY'RE DONE, PEOPLE! .... Ahem. I think in my FR game, I'd make all non-Hopeblade Moonblades go immediately dormant.
Alediran 05-21-07, 04:31 PM	It wasn't a Moonblade, it was Keryvan, the last of Demron's Baneblades. His sword after all.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:36 PM	That's more acceptable. kthnx.
msatran 05-21-07, 04:37 PM	Well, it doesn't matter what who or thus and so said. The real issue is that around years of history or so separates this Ressurrection spell from it's target, and that Seiveril Meiritar needs to be somewhere around LEVEL 67 in order to cast it. This is retarded to begin with. If there really WAS a 67th level cleric out there somewhere, it wouldn't MATTER what was in Myth Drannor. He'd cast Weave Mythal, research an epic spell of "Turn Sarya Dlardrageth into a big lump of cheese, and all her fey'ri with her," and PAMF! 1 1/3 years later, Sarya's a lump of Death Cheese, and all of her followers an overripe Gouda! Dig in! It really just seems to me that the people who are writing these novels are NOT reading the rules. At all.
MaskedOne 05-21-07, 04:37 PM	It wasn't a Moonblade, it was Keryvan, the last of Demron's Baneblades. His sword after all. Strange, should've remembered that. Eh well, since I've apparently forgotten how to count already this morning, it's not too shocking to see other faults in my memory.
Alediran 05-21-07, 04:39 PM	The real issue is that around years of history or so separates this Ressurrection spell from it's target, and that Seiveril Meiritar needs to be somewhere around LEVEL 67 in order to cast it. If you read carefully the description of the scene (a spell who required absolute faith for Corellon, etc) the spell that Seiveril casts is not Resurrection but True Resurrection, wich is completely rules safe giving the time Fflar was dead. Strange, should've remembered that. Eh well, since I've apparently forgotten how to count already this morning, it's not too shocking to see other faults in my memory. That's heavy. You should start taking memory pills.
msatran 05-21-07, 04:46 PM	Incorrect. This spell functions as Ressurrection. You have 10 years PER caster level. Nowhere in True Ressurrection does it say that the person may be dead for an infinite amount of time.
Alediran 05-21-07, 04:54 PM	IIRC True Resurrection had an exception somewhere that would allow Fflar to be resurrected. Considering that it's the most powerfull resurrection spell (baring an epic version) it should have by logic no time limit to resurrect somebody, after all the material cost is the most expensive for any spell in D&D.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 04:54 PM	Rich's answer over at Candlekeep was either: A) He used a Miracle, so could have been 16th level or B) He used an Epic spell. He thus statted Seiveril between 16th and 21st level, depending on the method of resurrection. But it's definite that he did not use Resurrection OR True Resurrection.
Alediran 05-21-07, 04:58 PM	Rich's answer over at Candlekeep was either: A) He used a Miracle, so could have been 16th level or B) He used an Epic spell. He thus statted Seiveril between 16th and 21st level, depending on the method of resurrection. But it's definite that he did not use Resurrection OR True Resurrection. Option A is better from a cost point of view, but 17th (minimum level to cast 9th level spells) level is too low considering what he did during the trilogy, lvl 20 at least, if not more.
msatran 05-21-07, 04:59 PM	Even if he used a Miracle, it could only simulate Raise Dead or Ressurrection. He had to have used an Epic Spell. But if he DID use an epic spell, then it's suspect, because there are no stats for it. And EVERY PC GROUP ON EARTH WOULD WANT THE RETARDED THING. This is what I call poor planning. For god's sake, the moment that it got out that Elves had access to infinite resurrection spells for anyone, no matter how long dead, there would be armies descending upon Elven kingdoms to rip the secret from their lips with Speak with Dead. Your PC's want it, NPC's will too. Plus, now, it's canon that they DO. Even if Seveiril is dead, other Elves can cast the spell also, because Priests of Corellon don't live in a !@#$$!ing vaccum. Now, you can be ressurrected if you get sucked into a sphere of annihilation? Come on, people! Show a little restraint.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:01 PM	Personally, I wouldn't mind having the spell available, but only able actually to be carried through with the express permission of Corellon. Like the Breath of Light Elven High Magic Ritual. And if Rich Baker said 21st level at the highest, and he made the character? Then I'm going with him. No more of these silly 24i82382th level characters are needed.
Alediran 05-21-07, 05:02 PM	Even if he used a Miracle, it could only simulate Raise Dead or Ressurrection. He had to have used an Epic Spell. But if he DID use an epic spell, then it's suspect, because there are no stats for it. And EVERY PC GROUP ON EARTH WOULD WANT THE RETARDED THING. This is what I call poor planning. For god's sake, the moment that it got out that Elves had access to infinite resurrection spells for anyone, no matter how long dead, there would be armies descending upon Elven kingdoms to rip the secret from their lips with Speak with Dead. Your PC's want it, NPC's will too. Plus, now, it's canon that they DO. Even if Seveiril is dead, other Elves can cast the spell also, because Priests of Corellon don't live in a !@#$$!ing vaccum. Now, you can be ressurrected if you get sucked into a sphere of annihilation? Come on, people! Show a little restraint. Seiveril was one of the most, if not THE most powerfull Clerics of Corellon, besides, the spell was cast in the safety and secrecy of the Green Isle, it's unlikely that others would find out and learn to cast it, especially considering that epic spells must be developed by every single person who want's to cast it.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:04 PM	Out of pure curiosity, where is it mentioned that he was perhaps the most powerful Cleric of Corellon Larethian? I can't remember if he was even mentioned in older lore. If not, as far as I'm concerned, he's just a High Cleric, and nothing more. I am SO not a fan of random high level NPCs popping up out of nowhere.
msatran 05-21-07, 05:05 PM	Wrong answer! Fflar Starbrow is now ALIVE AND FIGHTING A WAR IN THE DALELANDS! Who brought him back to life? The tooth fairy? Secretive doesn't matter when the guy is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU! No cleric on earth who can make a spellcraft check of 24 will believe that. People like...you know...Fzoul Chembryl? Tchazzar? Other ridiculously epic creatures who have high Gather Information checks? When will people learn that just because it's canon doesn't mean that people HAVE to be morons in order to support it?
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:11 PM	Just looking over Kuje's NPC file, some listed higher level clerics of Corellon... Salyndra Shaern: NG Female Half-Elf, 14th level Cleric of Corellon Glorandal Agayous: LG Male Gold Elf, 18th level Cleric of Corellon (during the time of Cormanthyr, most likely deceased) So, yeah.. Seiveril was one of those 'out of thin air' characters. It's totally unrealistic for the highest level cleric of Corellon in Faerun to have gone to war without the majority of the Elven people largely backing him. ESPECIALLY if he's a Sun Elf. It would have made no sense for the Sun Elven nobility to have opposed him so strongly, if he had truly been such a powerful servant of Corellon. Then again, that's what I think. There's a reason why Sun Elves produce the most numerous, devout, and powerful Elven Clerics in canon. They're pious folk. ... I have seriously different views on a lot of things that happen in this trilogy. I'm going to be quiet now. *Zip.*
msatran 05-21-07, 05:16 PM	Plus, I'd also like to add that if I were of good alignment, and a cleric, and >I< could cast Epic Spells, I'd be calling on the Elves to share the secret with the others who were of goodly bent. This opens a firestorm of problems. Especially if I happened to worship Lathander, who the Elves are busy screwing harder than an unthreaded wine bottle opener. Let me get this straight: First, the Elves claim the sacred ground of Lathander as their own. Then, they have a spell that returns to life anyone, no matter how long dead, and they refuse to share it with other goodly races. All those who said that it was totally unreasonable that Lathander might wish his priests to go on crusade against Elvenkind might want to take their comments back a notch.
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 05:53 PM	No, there's nothing wrong with Seiveril casting an epic spell that brings back an ancient hero. Does every epic spell need to be statted? No. Are there possibly checks and balances written into it? Yes, both in terms of mechanics and storyline. In terms of mechanics, there are already rituals that have written out with finite limits in terms of how often they can be cast and used. See C:EoE, for example--Akh'Faen'Tel'Quess, which does nothing really besides duplicate Shapechange, can only be used with the consent of the Coronal or Clan Elder. Might not such a far-reaching Resurrection be checked by the approval of a deity? Beyond that, the fear of such a spell being used rampantly is just unrealistic. Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection are far more accessible than epic magic, and there is no documented rash of the dead being brought back in the Realms. Storyline-wise, it becomes even more unrealistic that the spell would be "abused." To begin with, there's no guarantee that it would work. It's not a summoning, after all, and there's no obligation to follow. An astute DM I know once posed the question: why would anyone want to leave their peoples' version of HEAVEN to come back to life? Fflar certainly didn't want to come back. He only did because he felt the need and urgency of Seiveril's call. As for Seiveril's power, status, and the amount of The People following him on "the crusade," there is a conflict of interests to take into account. Amlaruil is Queen, and it is she that is the ultimate leader and representative of the Seldarine. Seiveril wields a lot of power and is loved/respected... but that doesn't mean that the Tel'Quessir as a whole believe in the concept of the Return. Consider that many of the elves of Evermeet arrived at that land in their lifetime. It's not unrealistic for many to stop and take the time to think about Seiveril's admittedly rather radical quest.
Alediran 05-21-07, 05:56 PM	Wrong answer! Fflar Starbrow is now ALIVE AND FIGHTING A WAR IN THE DALELANDS! That isn't common knowledge, not even Ilselvele and Araevin could recognize him as only Starbrow (he asked Seiveril to be called by that name only), most people who know much about the Weeping War are friends of the elves. Who brought him back to life? Again, it's not common knowledge, most elves of the crusade didn't know who he was, much less they knew that "the fighter wielding Keryvan" was somebody resurrected. Secretive doesn't matter when the guy is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU! Read above No cleric on earth who can make a spellcraft check of 24 will believe that. People like...you know...Fzoul Chembryl? Tchazzar? Other ridiculously epic creatures who have high Gather Information checks? Do you think Fzoul would even bother to investigate that, or Tchazzar who lives in the other side of the world? When will people learn that just because it's canon doesn't mean that people HAVE to be morons in order to support it? Seiveril applied the old strategy of: to fool your enemies you have to fool your friends, only Queen Amlauril and the priest who helped him during the resurrection knew about Fflar. You are mixing in character knowledge with ooc knowledge, and that is metagaming. Plus, I'd also like to add that if I were of good alignment, and a cleric, and >I< could cast Epic Spells, I'd be calling on the Elves to share the secret with the others who were of goodly bent. Epic spells can't be taught, they must be researched every time by the person who wants to cast it. So even if they wanted to share it, they couldn't This opens a firestorm of problems. Especially if I happened to worship Lathander, who the Elves are busy screwing harder than an unthreaded wine bottle opener. Let me get this straight: First, the Elves claim the sacred ground of Lathander as their own. When? Then, they have a spell that returns to life anyone, no matter how long dead, and they refuse to share it with other goodly races. Epic spells can't be taught, they must be researched every time by the person who wants to cast it. So even if they wanted to share it, they couldn't All those who said that it was totally unreasonable that Lathander might wish his priests to go on crusade against Elvenkind might want to take their comments back a notch. We still think that way.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:56 PM	I was under the impression that Amlaruil at heart WANTED to help Seiveril, but was unable to because of the Nobility opposing her... I'm more worried about the cultural interactions and lore in the Last Mythal trilogy, myself. While I can understand Msatran's frustrations about the spell Seiveril used, they just don't bother me much, at all. That's what Elven High Magic's for, and we have evidence of Clerics aiding in High Magic Rituals. That's what I'm going to call it: an Elven High Magic Ritual. And I do agree that NO one would recognize Starbrow. Heck, your average human, regardless of level, unless they had extensive knowledge of Elven history, probably wouldn't even recognize the full name Fflar Starbrow, or understand his significance. Ultimately, again, there's just way too many things about this trilogy I can't wrap my heart and mind around. I totally respect Alediran and Phil, and especially Phil as a rhetoritician, but a lot of this is largely opinion-based, as opposed to reading facts off a timeline (;)).
sages 05-21-07, 05:59 PM	He could have used a Miracle, read the description of the spell. It clearly says that a cleric can make a very powerful request but must pay the price.
Alediran 05-21-07, 06:01 PM	I was under the impression that Amlaruil at heart WANTED to help Seiveril, but was unable to because of the Nobility opposing her... She approved from the begining, and after the first victory even the nobility accepted Seiveril's crusade and started suporting it. I'm more worried about the cultural interactions and lore in the Last Mythal trilogy, myself. While I can understand Msatran's frustrations about the spell Seiveril used, they just don't bother me much, at all. That's what Elven High Magic's for, and we have evidence of Clerics aiding in High Magic Rituals. That's what I'm going to call it: an Elven High Magic Ritual. And I do agree that NO one would recognize Starbrow. Heck, your average human, regardless of level, unless they had extensive knowledge of Elven history, probably wouldn't even recognize the full name Fflar Starbrow, or understand his significance. It's completely logical, given that Seiveril wasn't alone when he casted it.
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 06:01 PM	Seiveril sure did--though I'm not saying his fate was tied into the spell that brought Fflar back.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 06:05 PM	She approved from the begining, and after the first victory even the nobility accepted Seiveril's crusade and started suporting it. So, the Queen of all Elves and the Chosen of the Seldarine approved from the beginning, AND the possibly most powerful Sun Elf Cleric of Corellon, and they STILL met such significant resistance from the (largely) Sun Elven Nobility at first? That's the core of my problem, right there. I understand that some would be hesitant to Return (as Phil said), for many reasons... But that 'some' would have, in my opinion, only consisted of a minority of Houses.
Alediran 05-21-07, 06:08 PM	So, the Queen of all Elves and the Chosen of the Seldarine approved from the beginning, AND the possibly most powerful Sun Elf Cleric of Corellon, and they STILL met such significant resistance from the (largely) Sun Elven Nobility at first? That's the core of my problem, right there. I understand that some would be hesitant to Return (as Phil said), for many reasons... But that 'some' would have, in my opinion, only consisted of a minority of Houses. Amlauril did aprove, but on her inside, she had to be the middle ground until Seiveril's crusade was seen with good eyes by most of the noble houses. And that is depending on the house, I don't remember wich one, but IIRC at least one Sun Elf noble house didn't outright banned the crusade.
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 06:09 PM	I'm still not used to Dan's new avatar. :D
GothicDan 05-21-07, 06:11 PM	That still really doesn't mesh with what I was saying, though. One Sun Elf House 'not banning the Crusade' isn't anywhere near what I think should have most likely happened - say, 50% of the Houses actively supporting it. I mean, your DIVINE MONARCH and the High Priest of your Pantheon's head both agree... Come on, now. Sun Elves are also the subrace most likely to really do fantastic (for good or evil) things. I think they'd be the type most likely to go on a (sanctioned by people about as holy as you can get) Crusade.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 06:12 PM	I'm still not used to Dan's new avatar. I decided to make my unmitigated love for all things Sun Elven more obvious. Sadly, there's not a SINGLE Sun Elven Male Avatar around, or even another Elf resembling one. It made me so sad.
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 06:12 PM	Oh, and, to be fair, I thought the only reason they made the nobles reluctant was so that it didn't appear that the Sun Elves went from one extreme to the other without, depiction wise. I imagine they felt people would question the idea of ALL Sun Elves all of a sudden being helpful, nice, and optimistic. But, if you ask me, it's their fault for digging that hole to begin with... Dan, Dalamar was Silvanesti, though... and I guess *technically* the DL equivalent of a Sun Elf. Perhaps you could talk one of the Mods into finagling the Sun Elf from LEoF into the Avatar list? You've been here long enough--you should get perks! ;)
GothicDan 05-21-07, 06:14 PM	Who said that Sun Elves couldn't be helpful, nice, and optimistic? ;) Again, I think a more even split would have been more believable. I know it seems like a small nitpick... But I'm just like that!
msatran 05-21-07, 06:59 PM	Uh, Dan... Corellon is All Elves. It is male, female, both, and neither. So if you want him male...he's male! Could be worse. He could be one of those spontaneously sex-changing fish. (Snork) But to get back on topic, let's talk about a 21st level character. People TALK about 21st level characters. A lot. When EPIC people do things, they are LEGENDARY! Their deeds are KNOWN. The idea that people wouldn't know who Starbrow is, PARTICULARLY in the DALELANDS, where this guy informs their entire history and culture, is just as dumb as you telling me that it's a big secret. Because it isn't. There was never any conscious effort made in those books to keep who he was a secret. I hated those badly written pieces of trash, and I'll hate them to my dying day for ruining the single best adventure location in the Realms. Myth Drannor was where seasoned adventurers ASPIRED to go. Now, it's just another city with a wealth limit.
MaskedOne 05-21-07, 07:08 PM	That still really doesn't mesh with what I was saying, though. One Sun Elf House 'not banning the Crusade' isn't anywhere near what I think should have most likely happened - say, 50% of the Houses actively supporting it. I mean, your DIVINE MONARCH and the High Priest of your Pantheon's head both agree... Come on, now. Sun Elves are also the subrace most likely to really do fantastic (for good or evil) things. I think they'd be the type most likely to go on a (sanctioned by people about as holy as you can get) Crusade. I find it odd that a Durothil councilor was one of the key forces staying Amlauril's hand at the beginning (see below) but I suspect that was largely because there had to be a great house involved and not using Durothil would potentially mean making up another house out of thin air with enough political clout to actually stand against Amlauril, a ranking High Priest who happened to be on her Council and the Durothils. Shrug, I liked the storyline and having an active rather than hidden large force of elves in the Heartlands amuses me but there are a variety of problems with the manner that things went through when considered in comparison to the larger part of Toril's history and political structure. (Said Durothil changed her mind and I'm not going any further on that topic, right now, the scenes involved leave potentialities that I do not care to consider while simultaneously debating with people who haven't read the trilogy)
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 07:53 PM	-While we're talking about Starbrow, and people recognizing him, and what not... -I just want to point out that 'Fflar' isn't actually the character's name. 'Fflar' is an Elven word that means 'True Valor'. It is a nickname that he recieved during the Weeping War. The character's actual name is Starbrow Melruth.
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 08:44 PM	Why would Fflar necessarily be *recognizable* to present-day humans? He was a hero to a specific region and culture six centuries ago. If human memory were that great, then his true identity wouldn't have been that great a mystery. Remember, until he was resurrected, the canon lore was such that his true name and race had been forgotten.* Far from being known, Fflar could have been going around introducing himself as THE Starbrowm Melruth, and all he would have gotten is stares. * From FoMD: "The Captain's true name and race are long lost, as descriptions of the hero vary to fit the race that tells it; bards of all stripes sing of Fflar being a human paladin, an elf bladesinger, or even a half-elf ranger, and all insist that their versions of the legends a re the truth. Of course, only those who stood by Fflar's side under his command on those last dark days know the truth, and of them, few survived the Final Fall.
Alediran 05-21-07, 09:23 PM	People TALK about 21st level characters. A lot. When EPIC people do things, they are LEGENDARY! Their deeds are KNOWN. Is Araevin Teshuur known in many areas of Faerûn? Because he is 21+ level. Is the Shrinshee known in Faerûn? after all she is 30th level. The idea that people wouldn't know who Starbrow is, PARTICULARLY in the DALELANDS, where this guy informs their entire history and culture, is just as dumb as you telling me that it's a big secret. Starbrow is an elven name wich many elves could have, he never revealed his last name to the members of the crusade. Because it isn't. There was never any conscious effort made in those books to keep who he was a secret. Yes they did, Starbrow covered his face during most of the trilogy. I hated those badly written pieces of trash, and I'll hate them to my dying day for ruining the single best adventure location in the Realms. Myth Drannor was where seasoned adventurers ASPIRED to go. Now, it's just another city with a wealth limit. You aren't thinking for the good side, you can still have Myth Drannor as an adventure location, just play in a year before the crusade, and if you want to make a campaign that deals with the reconstruction you now have the foundations.
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 09:25 PM	Never mind that, as stated earlier, *no one actually knew* what Fflar's name or race was outside of a few surviving elves.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 09:25 PM	You aren't thinking for the good side, you can still have Myth Drannor as an adventure location, just play in a year before the crusade, and if you want to make a campaign that deals with the reconstruction you now have the foundations. That doesn't mean he can't dislike changes to canon. I know I sure don't. I don't like the way the Return came about, at all. I much preferred a slow, quiet, intelligent one... Not ZOMG DEMONS & FIREBALLZ!
GothicDan 05-21-07, 09:28 PM	I find it odd that a Durothil councilor was one of the key forces staying Amlauril's hand at the beginning (see below) but I suspect that was largely because there had to be a great house involved and not using Durothil would potentially mean making up another house out of thin air with enough political clout to actually stand against Amlauril, a ranking High Priest who happened to be on her Council and the Durothils. Shrug, I liked the storyline and having an active rather than hidden large force of elves in the Heartlands amuses me but there are a variety of problems with the manner that things went through when considered in comparison to the larger part of Toril's history and political structure. (Said Durothil changed her mind and I'm not going any further on that topic, right now, the scenes involved leave potentialities that I do not care to consider while simultaneously debating with people who haven't read the trilogy) I think Durothil would have been all for the Crusade in the first place, considering they were always one of the foremost defenders of Cormanthyr in the first place, and they were very loyal (LG), and very much observant of the Seldarine. They were very old, yes, but I doubt they would have hesitated in acting when their Queen and one of the most respected Sun Elven Priests of Corellon both agreed on a decision. Right now, I still have a big stack of books ahead of me (including Realms of the Elves and Blackstaff), but unless the novels depict any major enlightenments that so far no one has mentioned in the many discussions I've seen and engaged in on this topic, I doubt reading them will make much of a difference, opinion-wise.
Kelmech_Ra 05-21-07, 09:34 PM	I for one love how the Return started. That's how I picture the entire return unfolding, elven magic, arrows, and steel defeating thier enemies and reclaiming their lost lands. I can't picture it any other way.
BrennonGoldeye 05-21-07, 09:40 PM	I for one love how the Return started. That's how I picture the entire return unfolding, elven magic, arrows, and steel defeating thier enemies and reclaiming their lost lands. I can't picture it any other way. Agreed. :D
GothicDan 05-21-07, 09:55 PM	Ugh. You people are so N'Tel'Quess. "We like war and arrows and fireballs! Human human! Waaah!" ;)
Kelmech_Ra 05-21-07, 10:04 PM	Ugh. You people are so N'Tel'Quess. "We like war and arrows and fireballs! Human human! Waaah!" ;) Haha, I agree I don't think I have a very elvish mentality, but seriously, how'd you think the elves would reclaim their land? By asking nicely? ;)
Philalexandros 05-21-07, 10:08 PM	I dunno. A good war every once and a while is part of that warm, fuzzy, Tel'Quess existence. I'm pretty sure Corellon is disappointed at those elves who play at being pacifists.
boards 05-21-07, 10:30 PM	Lord Miritar is never said to be the highest ranking priest of Corellon in the novels, just that he is a High Priest, and that he led the circle in Corellons Grove. The other High Priest's were thinking of ex-communicating him at one point, so I presume that there are others of equal or higher rank than him. The Queen agreed in private to the Crusade but never showed that front to the Council, actively saying that she did not condone the act but that she would not attempt to forbid him from doing so. The gold elf houses therefore were not going against the High Priest of their faith, however they did go against Amlaruil, something that outraged Miritar.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 10:32 PM	Corellon always seemed more of a deity of defensive war, though. Myth Drannor was already lost to hordes of demons and phaerimm. It was a dream that had died, and should have been laid to rest, while the Return should have continued with Lamruil (the Prince of the Elves, rather than Araevin) in his northern realm. That's how I see it, at least. After the Elves had established a more firm power base in mainland Faerun, built up their numbers, and only then started on Myth Drannor. At least, that's how I would have done it...
GothicDan 05-21-07, 10:33 PM	And Corellon's Grove is the foremost temple of Corellon in all the world. If he was the leader of that Circle, it's safe to say he was as close to a 'Pope' as the clergy of Corellon might have had.
MaskedOne 05-21-07, 10:59 PM	Lord Miritar is never said to be the highest ranking priest of Corellon in the novels, just that he is a High Priest, and that he led the circle in Corellons Grove. The other High Priest's were thinking of ex-communicating him at one point, so I presume that there are others of equal or higher rank than him. The Queen agreed in private to the Crusade but never showed that front to the Council, actively saying that she did not condone the act but that she would not attempt to forbid him from doing so. The gold elf houses therefore were not going against the High Priest of their faith, however they did go against Amlaruil, something that outraged Miritar. Depending on how the internal structure of Corellon's faith works, no single priest needs equivalent rank to Miritar to arrange excommunication. A collection of influential High Priests might, barring the intervention of Corellon have adequate authority remove a lone priest of higher authority than any one of those interested in removing just as while no lone senator can do much directly to the US president enough of them with backing from the House can remove said President. It can suck to be alone in any political position. Without allies, you're vulnerable no matter how high you are. Of course in a sufficiently autocratic structure, said removal can often be fatal but with enough political clout it doesn't have to be.
msatran 05-22-07, 12:12 AM	I am in total agreement with Dan here. Total N'Tel Qess
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 11:02 AM	Haha, I agree I don't think I have a very elvish mentality, but seriously, how'd you think the elves would reclaim their land? By asking nicely? ;) I've got an elven NPC who's been setting up various trading companies around FR. His overall plan is to gain a pretty large chunk of transport, funnel money and supplies to various elven groups and try and provoke different human realms into attacking one another. Between the conflicts he starts and stopping transport/interfering with transport, he hopes to weaken the human realms enough (specifically in the Vilhon Reach right now) so that they aren't a threat to elven realms. It's a decade/century spanning plan but those work a lot better than "I'm gonna take my army and hit you" :)
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 11:08 AM	Thanks to Farthest Reach, I actually got PLAYER complaints! TONS of them. I've never gotten player complaints over something I didn't DO before. That should give you an idea of how angry my players were. Rule your players with an iron fist. If you throw empowered rust monsters at them every time they complain about something that doesn't concern them (ie. some lines from random novel) then they'll stop complaining pretty quick. And when they complain about such treatment let them know that you will do that every time they metagame. :)
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 12:01 PM	I've got an elven NPC who's been setting up various trading companies around FR. His overall plan is to gain a pretty large chunk of transport, funnel money and supplies to various elven groups and try and provoke different human realms into attacking one another. Between the conflicts he starts and stopping transport/interfering with transport, he hopes to weaken the human realms enough (specifically in the Vilhon Reach right now) so that they aren't a threat to elven realms. -How truly devious...:)
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 12:39 PM	-How truly devious...:) That's my hope, the NPC in question (actually an old PC, he's in the Reach because there are various interests on the sword coast that would love to spit roast him :)) is quite intelligent and has had a couple decades since my last game end and the start of my campaign. He's actually set up several "cover IDs" to build the businesses as (none of the covers being elven, mostly half-elven or human females, he's got quite a hefty disguise skill *g*) and is proceeding in a very patient manner. He wants to set it up so that if he choses he can cripple transportation to some extent if he desires to do so but I haven't figured out the exact method to do this so it's still a bit up in the air. My favorite part of the NPC is that he's the one who's hired the PCs (he's posing as a half-elven sembian noble who's grandfather sent him out of the country to avoid the social stigma of having a half-elven grandson, the actuality is that he's blackmailing the noble so that if anyone checks up on his story it's still solid on that end) and they're SO suspicious of him but he's just trying to build a business and gain adventurer agents (which is another of his plans, to try and get a "registry" of adventurers for future use) Anyhow, I guess the whole deal is, I like devious :D
msatran 05-22-07, 01:27 PM	Dude, the players had a RIGHT to complain. One of them created a character who was Sarya's daughter four years before this retarded novel ever hit print. The lengths I had to go to to rewrite my campaign to have it not conflict with existing lore because he wanted Sarya to be one of the campaign major villains? Absurd. I shouldn't have to go through all that just to have other players not be confused.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 01:35 PM	That's my hope, the NPC in question (actually an old PC, he's in the Reach because there are various interests on the sword coast that would love to spit roast him :)) is quite intelligent and has had a couple decades since my last game end and the start of my campaign. He's actually set up several "cover IDs" to build the businesses as (none of the covers being elven, mostly half-elven or human females, he's got quite a hefty disguise skill *g*) and is proceeding in a very patient manner. He wants to set it up so that if he choses he can cripple transportation to some extent if he desires to do so but I haven't figured out the exact method to do this so it's still a bit up in the air. My favorite part of the NPC is that he's the one who's hired the PCs (he's posing as a half-elven sembian noble who's grandfather sent him out of the country to avoid the social stigma of having a half-elven grandson, the actuality is that he's blackmailing the noble so that if anyone checks up on his story it's still solid on that end) and they're SO suspicious of him but he's just trying to build a business and gain adventurer agents (which is another of his plans, to try and get a "registry" of adventurers for future use) Anyhow, I guess the whole deal is, I like devious :D -Said Elf belongs in the Eldreth Veluuthra Hall of Fame! :cool: One of them created a character who was Sarya's daughter four years before this retarded novel ever hit print. -If I recall correctly, Sarya never had any daughters. She only had two sons (though one son is sometimes a nephew, depending on the source). Though, I may be confusing who survived (her two sons) with who actually existed. I'll check Hellgate Keep a little later.
zerodeviere 05-22-07, 01:36 PM	Man alot of opinions out there might as well add mine... the elves can also use animals for food gathering and info gathering on armies in the area. also keep in mind that in cases where it is stated that spell component cost for things would be high that it wouldn't be if they had sorcerer's doing the mass castings that are reffered to. Elves are chaotic good for the most part.. demons are chaotic evil.. devils lawful evil.. if im thinking correctly.. but either way its the good and evil aspects that also have to be considered when in mass battles because evil will not fight with as much unity as good because they will always chose to live at an allies expense than die for an ally. Evil wouldn't forget about its own agenda even in a pitched fight where elves would die for an ally and not just be there waiting to stick a knife in the back of a rival elf when noone was looking. IMO
msatran 05-22-07, 01:37 PM	The thing about half-fiends and children is that they're like popcorn. There's more to it than that, of course.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 01:47 PM	The thing about half-fiends and children is that they're like popcorn. -When you put them both in the microwave, they pop and explode? Both taste good with salt and butter? :confused:
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 02:22 PM	-Said Elf belongs in the Eldreth Veluuthra Hall of Fame! :cool: He's a sort of "outside agent" because he doesn't hate humans and finds the "hardcore" human haters to be childish and too narrow in vision. He'd rather use humans to elven ends than try to kill off humans wholesale(he's too realistic to believe that the elves could take out humanity as a whole). He's also disappointed that humanity is the greatest threat to elvenkind (in his opinion) because he'd rather live with them than work against them. But yes, he's my Eldreth Veluuthra "agent" in my campaign :)
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 02:26 PM	Dude, the players had a RIGHT to complain. One of them created a character who was Sarya's daughter four years before this retarded novel ever hit print. The lengths I had to go to to rewrite my campaign to have it not conflict with existing lore because he wanted Sarya to be one of the campaign major villains? Umm. . . your players decide who the villains are going to be? That's sorta strange, but it's your game. Absurd. I shouldn't have to go through all that just to have other players not be confused. All you had to write is one line; "The events in the trilogy did not happen in my Realms." Done :)
msatran 05-22-07, 03:27 PM	Yeah, but obviously, Shades, you don't understand how sourcebooks work. It's the snowball effect. I've played D+D for a long time. I'm 37 years old. I've been running the Realms for 19 years. Maybe not as much as Mr. Greenwood, but enough, considering the 3 or so games a week + pickup games that we play occasionally. Sourcebook one says "Fred slays the golem of cheese, and brings the cheese back to town and sells it." Sourcebook two says "Fred is now a powerful cheese merchant." It's two years later. It's four years later: Sourcebook three says "Fred has built a tower out of cheese, and he lives in Cheeseton." Me: Holy !#$%@. My players walk through cheeseton all the time. And NO ONE noticed the tower of cheese? What do I do now? The next time my PC's walk through Cheeseton My players: Mike, why didn't we see the tower of cheese? Don't you think it would have been nice to let us know? That isn't fair. I would have tried to steal some cheese bricks and eat them when my character was young and stupid, blah blah blah... Me: Too bad, there's nothing I can do about it. Now, there IS something that Wizards can do, which is freeze the timeline.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 03:47 PM	I think I <3 Shade's NPC. He thinks like a Sun Elf. Much better than "I throw fireballs at you while you lightning bolt me" trilogies.
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 03:56 PM	Yeah, but obviously, Shades, you don't understand how sourcebooks work. Really? You mean they aren't a way to convey information through the printed medium? Information that, as has been stated a myriad of times, you don't have to use? Guess I don't know how they work. It's the snowball effect. I've played D+D for a long time. I'm 37 years old. I've been running the Realms for 19 years. Maybe not as much as Mr. Greenwood, but enough, considering the 3 or so games a week + pickup games that we play occasionally. And you're still in a completely cannon realms? Are you running relatively low level games? Once my players get to 8th-10th level they start trying to do things like create trade costiers, building keeps, getting involved in political macinations, etc. Sourcebook one says "Fred slays the golem of cheese, and brings the cheese back to town and sells it." Sourcebook two says "Fred is now a powerful cheese merchant." It's two years later. It's four years later: Sourcebook three says "Fred has built a tower out of cheese, and he lives in Cheeseton." Me: Holy !#$%@. My players walk through cheeseton all the time. And NO ONE noticed the tower of cheese? What do I do now? Depends on what your players have done, if they helped out various farmers who produced cheese then it could be that Fred wouldn't have the ability to become the monopolizing cheese czar of cheeseton and it wouldn't make sense for the cheeseton your players are in to have a Fred "Cheesemaster" build his cheese tower. Or you could say "You notice some new construction in town, it looks like Fred, the guy who you guys have bought your cheese from these past few years, is building himself a cheese tower." Granted, this example isn't real and other changes in the Realms may or may not be as easy to deal with, but then, having players who change the area means you can't follow cannon too closely anyhow. Now, there IS something that Wizards can do, which is freeze the timeline. And they could run things more in line with how I'd like them to be run. They could produce a series of "church" books, a discourse upon economics in the Realms, a book about local customs and laws. However, due to the decisions of Wizards and the supposed reality of the market (I only say supposed because I haven't researched it myself) this is very unlikely to happen.
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 03:58 PM	I think I <3 Shade's NPC. He thinks like a Sun Elf. Much better than "I throw fireballs at you while you lightning bolt me" trilogies. Woohoo! I'm pretty sure that's some of the best praise available on the boards. ;) But seriously, I've just been trying to wrap my head around the "I have centuries to play with" mentality and figured the best place to start was one of my old PCs :D
Alediran 05-22-07, 04:04 PM	I think I <3 Shade's NPC. He thinks like a Sun Elf. Much better than "I throw fireballs at you while you lightning bolt me" trilogies. Well, if you read the Cormanthyr history I'm doing for the netbook you'll see that Unelas Tir'ent (Alediran's uncle) focused the stories he told him on Myth Drannor, the wonders of the city, etc. He knows that when the time comes for Myth Drannor to be reborn, he'll be too old to do much for the city where he lived and loved, so he is preparing his nephew to be what he can't be, and now Alediran is "obssesed" to visit the realm, without knowing (this in my campaign, for the netbook I leaved it as an option), that he'll be the next Spell-Mayor only because of his personality, perfectly molded by Unelas using Josidiah as a role model.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 04:08 PM	Spell-Major you mean? (Could be a translation difference.. Sorry if it is!) Also, if I was writing the section, I'd probably make Josidiah return, possibly as a Proxy of the god of Bladesingers. Or at least rejuvenated by him, so that the gift of ancient bladesong could be reborn in the City of Song, properly.
Alediran 05-22-07, 04:20 PM	Spell-Major you mean? (Could be a translation difference.. Sorry if it is!) Also, if I was writing the section, I'd probably make Josidiah return, possibly as a Proxy of the god of Bladesingers. Or at least rejuvenated by him, so that the gift of ancient bladesong could be reborn in the City of Song, properly. Yes, it was the translation (insert insults to translators) At least in my campaign Josidiah is a baelnorn, who watches over the Artblade in a demiplane created by the explotion of the Tower during the Weeping War, until somebody worthy the Ary'Faern'Kerym can wield it. After that he could become many things.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 04:35 PM	Awesome. I just like Josidiah a lot - and not just for him practicing naked in the dawnlight... mmm..
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 06:15 PM	At least in my campaign Josidiah is a baelnorn, who watches over the Artblade in a demiplane created by the explotion of the Tower during the Weeping War, until somebody worthy the Ary'Faern'Kerym can wield it. After that he could become many things. -If I recall correctly Steve Schend said something along the lines of he envisioned something very similar to this, Alediran.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 06:18 PM	Baelnorn Proxy of Tethrin Veralde. Fighter 5, Wizard 5, Bladesinger 10, Something Else 1-5. I certainly think he'd be Epic, given that he was a 15/15 Wizard/Fighter hundreds of years ago.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 06:39 PM	Tethrin Veralde? Is that the Bladesinger deity? That's so stupid...(I think)
GothicDan 05-22-07, 09:52 PM	No, YOU'RE stupid. We've had gods of sailors, thieves, assassins, illusionists, frost magicians, farmers, paladins, wizards... Why not a god of bladesingers? He's only a demigod, anyway.
Philalexandros 05-22-07, 09:56 PM	Who in the 4th Layer of Hell is Tethrin Veralde? I've never heard of him--especially not as a Bladesinger deity.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 10:53 PM	He was one of the several Elven demigods of the Seldarine introduced in two Dragon articles. Included was one of my favorites, Darahl Firecloak, Elven demigod of flame and earth magic. LN (formerly CG), seduced and fallen by a rose artifact of Lolth... And trying to seek retribution and forgiveness. He even has some Drow clergy. :)
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:13 PM	He was one of the several Elven demigods of the Seldarine introduced in two Dragon articles. Included was one of my favorites, Darahl Firecloak, Elven demigod of flame and earth magic. LN (formerly CG), seduced and fallen by a rose artifact of Lolth... And trying to seek retribution and forgiveness. He even has some Drow clergy. :) -You see, that, I like. What issues were they, anyway? I need to order them. 230-something? No, YOU'RE stupid. -We're not going to get into this again, are we booger-head? We've had gods of sailors, thieves, assassins, illusionists, frost magicians, farmers, paladins, wizards... Why not a god of bladesingers? He's only a demigod, anyway. -If you ask me, Bladesinging would be something handled by Corellon Larethian. I mean, he really seems to be tailor made for the role- Martial Prowess, Magic, Poetry, Song, and Art. Sounds very much like Bladesinging to me. -And, there is no reason for Bladesinging to have it's own deity. Does every martial art form in Kara-Tur need it's own deity? Does every bardic tradition need it's own deity?
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:16 PM	-You see, that, I like. What issues were they, anyway? I need to order them. 230-something? 23..8... Maybe... I don't remember. :( -We're not going to get into this again, are we booger-head? Why do you always put dashes in front of your statements, fart-face? -If you ask me, Bladesinging would be something handled by Corellon Larethian. I mean, he really seems to be tailor made for the role- Martial Prowess, Magic, Poetry, Song, and Art. Sounds very much like Bladesinging to me. -And, there is no reason for Bladesinging to have it's own deity. Does every martial art form in Kara-Tur need it's own deity? Does every bardic tradition need it's own deity? You do realize that real world pantheons had like dozens of minor gods (like demigods) that ruled over parts of the same portfolios, and the like, right?
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:22 PM	23..8... Maybe... I don't remember. :( -I'll do the research. At least I have a general idea now. Why do you always put dashes in front of your statements, fart-face? -It's the closest thing I've got to an indentation, poo-poo brain. You do realize that real world pantheons had like dozens of minor gods (like demigods) that ruled over parts of the same portfolios, and the like, right? -The Realms aren't the real world, remember? :P -But, I stand by what I said. Bladesinging doesn't really need it's own deity. A portfolio? Fine. That I can handle. And, Corellon Larethian would get that portfolio.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:24 PM	Well, you might as well just give ALL portfolios to AO, then. Darn Judeo-Christians. *Runs off!*
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:30 PM	-Ao doesn't get any portfolios. And, techincally, shouldn't Ao's Master get all of the portfolios? Or his master? Continue ad nauseum.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:31 PM	You started it!
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:36 PM	-I just wanted to give one portfolio to Corellon Larethian, since all of his other portfolios compliment the Bladesinging idea. You're the one who brought up Ao, and all of the infinite regression. That is what it's called, right? Infinite regression...
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:37 PM	You can call it that. You can also call it, "Stupid logic that Lord Karsus started." Which can also be applied to the Avatar spell, btw.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:44 PM	-When you wrest control of magic from the deity of magic by casting a magical spell, come see me. Until then...:P
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:53 PM	Yeah, let me get ahold of some writers of a 10 year old's version of D&D, and see what kind of stupid stuff happens... So dislike Netheril, sometimes.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:58 PM	Yeah, let me get ahold of some writers of a 10 year old's version of D&D, and see what kind of stupid stuff happens... -The possibilities are endless...Power Word, Cuties. Calvin's Cutie Cure. Turn Brains to Boogers. Summon Wet Dream. Chain Pimples. -When you look at this, it puts everything in perspective. It could have been worse...;) -Well, that's it for me. Good night...
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:59 PM	... Summon Wet Dream? Hmm...
ShadezofDis 05-23-07, 02:57 AM	Wow, just wow.
Stigger 05-23-07, 06:29 AM	Think someone forgot to take their meds... either way, I'd agree that the bladesinger portfolio should go to Corellon rather than some minor deity no one besides Dan cares about. :tongue: :D
Philalexandros 05-23-07, 06:48 AM	Unless said deity was an ascended mortal... I could deal with that.
Stigger 05-23-07, 08:29 AM	Don't much care for ascended mortals in an abstract sense, despite my fondness for Kelemvor and the new Mystra.
Alediran 05-23-07, 08:41 AM	Well, at least it seems that my mind automaticaly creates semi to complete cannon when it thinks (it's probably the same mechanism I use when programing over an already working system, it requires the skill to see what it does and how you can change it without completely destroying it), I'll continue with this trend.
Philalexandros 05-23-07, 10:41 AM	Stigger, I was thinking less Kelemvor/Mystra/Cyric and more Gwaeron Windstrom--especially where the "faith through emulation rather than veneration" line is concerned. :)
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:27 AM	Think someone forgot to take their meds... -Heh, nope. Just the opposite. I was as high as a kite last night. Anti-allergy medication is just amazing, let me tell you. Heh, that's pretty funny, what i wrote. I vaguely remember doing it.
BrennonGoldeye 05-23-07, 01:14 PM	-Heh, nope. Just the opposite. I was as high as a kite last night. Anti-allergy medication is just amazing, let me tell you. Heh, that's pretty funny, what i wrote. I vaguely remember doing it. -We're not going to get into this again, are we booger-head? -But, I stand by what I said. Bladesinging doesn't really need it's own deity. A portfolio? Fine. That I can handle. And, Corellon Larethian would get that portfolio. -The possibilities are endless...Power Word, Cuties. Calvin's Cutie Cure. Turn Brains to Boogers. Summon Wet Dream. Chain Pimples. He's just so cute when he's stoned. I would call Dan's behavior cute also, but he's that way all the time.:P
GothicDan 05-23-07, 01:28 PM	*Poses cutely.* My mom tried to get me to wear pink. :( I was like, "Uh, NO. I'm trying to take away from the red in my face! Blue, kthnxbye." Think someone forgot to take their meds... either way, I'd agree that the bladesinger portfolio should go to Corellon rather than some minor deity no one besides Dan cares about. Stigger, you're ugly and smell funny. LONG LIVE DEMIGODS! Every polytheistic culture I can think of had dozens of little local cult heroes and the like, especially the Greeks and Romans. Heck, the Romans deified their Emperors (and sometimes their Emperor's smexy boytoys - go Antinous!)
BrennonGoldeye 05-23-07, 01:30 PM	Hey, I'm as gay as the next fairy, but come on. Deifying the Imperial poolboy? No wonder we lost the continent to all those crazy germans....:rolleyes:
msatran 05-23-07, 01:34 PM	Could be worse (Channels Mel Brooks) "That's IT, your Majesty! You look like the **** BOY!" "And YOU LOOK LIKE A BUCKET OF ****!"
GothicDan 05-23-07, 01:45 PM	Zomg. I need that movie on DVD. Stat. Mmm, poolboys. Also need THAT DVD...
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 02:24 PM	He's just so cute when he's stoned. I would call Dan's behavior cute also, but he's that way all the time.:P -Hey, I was pretty coherent, and made sense. That's a plus, I guess. Stigger, you're ugly and smell funny. -I can think of at least two other people you've said this to. Does anyone fit Dan's sense of looks and smell?
GothicDan 05-23-07, 02:47 PM	... Brad Pitt.. Travis Fimmel.. Tom Welling.. Chris Evans.. Nick Auger.. Rusty Joiner...
Uzzy 05-23-07, 03:14 PM	Alright, long time lurker, but I've come out to say.. Chris Evans?!! Are you blind Dan?!! The others I can see, but Chris Evans? :confused:
GothicDan 05-23-07, 03:51 PM	Chris Evans in FANTASTIC FOUR was freaking HOT!!1 (Puns aside.) Don't make me fight you. I'll do it.
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 05:15 PM	-And, he'll fight you like an Elf, using Elven military tactics, to steer things back on topic...
GothicDan 05-23-07, 05:18 PM	Far away, using an advanced version of Project Image that lets me cast higher level spells, within an invisible, warded mythal-tower. THAT'S how Elves fight, sirs.
Stigger 05-23-07, 06:54 PM	Funnily, that med comment was directed at Dan, not you LK... don't get affected by anti-allergy meds anymore though, been taking them for years and built up a tolerance to the loopiness. As to me being ugly and smelling funny... I'll just chuckle amusedly and take comfort in the fact that despite Dan's assessment, I still have someone to sleep next to at night to comfort me as I cry myself to sleep over such harsh words. Dunno if Dan can say the same... :tongue: Phil, Cyric gives me hives just on principle... Red Knight and Gwaeron I can deal with though. Thinking about it I'm not sure I have a problem with it in concept so much as the execution its been given of late. Slow and gradual rises rather than the overnight ubergod suit me just fine. THAT'S hot Elves fight, sirs. That makes no sense whatsoever... take your pills Dan, it might help. :tongue:
Khaelieth 05-23-07, 07:24 PM	I like Shevarash=) But as he's CN, wouldn't it technically be possible for CE elves to worship him? Or do you have to be good or neutral to worship anyone of the Seldarine? I usually play you've gotta be neutral or good.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 09:41 PM	You misquoted me, Stigger! Read again! As to me being ugly and smelling funny... I'll just chuckle amusedly and take comfort in the fact that despite Dan's assessment, I still have someone to sleep next to at night to comfort me as I cry myself to sleep over such harsh words. Dunno if Dan can say the same... If I had actually been open to such things, I could have had someone to do the same. I'm neither ready for such a thing in my current situation, nor would I want one right now. ;) Also, if it's a female you're with? You still lose.
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:02 AM	You misquoted me, Stigger! Read again! -You edited. You cheated! :P Also, if it's a female you're with? You still lose. -Maybe in the long run, what, with the spending and the complaining, but in the short term, in the present moment, no. Definitley not...:shifty:
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:07 AM	Yeah. Haha. You just keep telling yourself that. I can't tell you how many straight guys I've heard wish they were gay sometimes. And how many females I've heard say they hate females... It's kind of weird.
Philalexandros 05-24-07, 12:15 AM	I've never wished I were gay. On the other hand, far from being biased against gay men, I support and encourage my peers on the hetero- side to give up on women and bat for the other team. One has to look out for one's own best interests, after all. Hate women? Only those I can't stand. They're a definite minority, though, and I never deal with those unless I absolutely need to.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:20 AM	Mind you, I wasn't trying to be all misogynist above, to any offended readers. I was being comedic and ironic. Why is no one laughing with me...? And a lot of gay guys are just as 'catty' as women. And we're far, far vainer.
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:31 AM	I can't tell you how many straight guys I've heard wish they were gay sometimes. -Never heard that one before. And a lot of gay guys are just as 'catty' as women. And we're far, far vainer. -Heh, my mother loves watching Will and Grace. That quote made me think of that show. On the other hand, far from being biased against gay men, I support and encourage my peers on the hetero- side to give up on women and bat for the other team. One has to look out for one's own best interests, after all. -Weaken the competition. Nice work.
Philalexandros 05-24-07, 12:38 AM	You know I'm not offended, Dan. As far as I'm concerned, you're not working it hard enough. Clear the field for me! ;)
Philalexandros 05-24-07, 12:39 AM	-Weaken the competition. Nice work. Precisely. :)
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:42 AM	I'll work my groove thang. If by groove thang, I mean my GPA or a tesla coil or a microwave inferometer or something... Can't wait to get my stuff ready for working out this summer! I'll get the muscles that so many gay men fawn over. And then, I'll study for GREs. Next step: rule the world.
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:49 AM	Can't wait to get my stuff ready for working out this summer! I'll get the muscles that so many gay men fawn over. -Heterosexual men like boobs. Shouldn't homosexual men like them as well? :D :embarrass
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:53 AM	They do. Only we call them 'pecs.'
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:56 AM	-Eh, not the same. -Well, I've got like three finals tomorrow. I need to call it quits early. Good night. (Aha! Elven Military Tactics! March out all of those attractive and scantily clad Elven women, causing the enemy to become stupified for a few moments...)
GothicDan 05-24-07, 01:03 AM	Except the gay ones! We just go, "EW GROSS!" and fight on. Well, not WE. I'm a gay elf, not a gay human. Humans are, like, totally gross or some junk! Night, LK.
msatran 05-24-07, 04:51 AM	Somehow, I think the sight of most people charging off to war Naked in a D+D world would make people charge into battle with a cry of LOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW AY-CEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
BrennonGoldeye 05-24-07, 08:30 AM	-Heterosexual men like boobs. Shouldn't homosexual men like them as well? :D :embarrass Well, I still do. And all the gals will let me handle them now. :D
Stigger 05-24-07, 09:56 AM	Dan's a weenie... and a cheating weenie at that. And I still can't go for an evening in San Francisco without having at least three guys hitting on me... something about me sets off the gaydar pretty badly I guess, even when I'm sitting with my wife. And before you even say it, I have tried men, just didn't do a thing for me. :tongue:
msatran 05-24-07, 12:11 PM	All right. Now THAT's just rude, regardless of preference. In the immortal words spoken by Joker in the original Batman movie a long time ago "Never rub another man's rubharb!"
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 12:40 PM	Ugh! :yuck: When did this become a Gay site? :confused: Get hit on fairly often, but not so much nowadays. When my 19 year old brother-in-law confessed that he had crush on me since he was 14, all I kept thinking was "Why the HELL doesn't my wife have ANY sisters?" Picked up a guy by accident once. :eek: Didn't mean to, I was just doing shots with the bartender like I always do. Even though I was at a gay bar with my gay friend, I didn't really think about it; I ALWAYS do shots with the bartender. After 7 or 8 shots I went to leave, and he asked where I was going, and I told him I wanted to check out a few other clubs. He reached across the bar, put his hand on my wrist, and said softly "Come back later for me". I swear I thought he was straight up until that moment. My friend said I did REALLY good, everyone was always trying to get into the bartenders pants (he had that 'All-American' college quarterback thing going on). I don't think I ever let my friend talk me into going back there again. Besides, I went there to check out the Lesbian action... and they were more manly then the men. :nonono: And just to steer this back on Topic, I was reading something in The Horde miniatures rules booklet. It seems the tiny little postage-stamp sized country of Khazari can field an army of 75,000!!! I remember in another thread we were discussing army sizes and how stupid some of them are written up, but that one has got to take the cake. The heartlands got up an army of 28,000 by pooling their resources, and that itty bitty country has that many men? It confuses me sometimes that the people we depended on to to give us info about the world we love were so clueless about so many things.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:06 PM	Dan's a weenie... and a cheating weenie at that. Am not. Me and my possible-future-SO have discussed this. It's not cheating if we're both involved.... Other people are optional. Yes, homosexual men are weird, and it's not just because of social pressure like some may think. It's also because we're often forced to accept the truth of our sexual preferences being considered deviant by a lot of people - so why the hell not actually BE deviant, as long as no one gets hurt? Whips and chains, my lads... Whips and chains. That being said - 75,000?! BUZZ! INCORRECT ANSWER! *Smacks that mini's module thing.*
Stigger 05-24-07, 02:18 PM	Took that one way out of context there Dan... but it was amusing, so I'll forgive you out of the kindness of my blackened heart. Not met all that many weirdo homosexual men though... some downright bizarre lesbians, but not many of them even. Most straight guys are far stranger, at least as far as I've experienced... 75,000... that's pretty impressive. That had to be a typo... either that or someone was hitting the crack pretty hard when they wrote it.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 03:21 PM	Not met all that many weirdo homosexual men though... some downright bizarre lesbians, but not many of them even. Most straight guys are far stranger, at least as far as I've experienced... How many gay guys have you 'experienced'? How many STRAIGHT guys have you 'experienced'? ;) 75,000... that's pretty impressive. That had to be a typo... either that or someone was hitting the crack pretty hard when they wrote it. Maybe it was supposed to be 7,500...
msatran 05-24-07, 05:12 PM	Heh. The entire nation is secretly run by deepspawn... Quick George! Spawn some more troops! The Horde is a comin!'
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 11:19 PM	-This is getting slightly weird, now. -You know, I've never been hit on by gay men. Does that mean I am that ugly?
GothicDan 05-24-07, 11:28 PM	Probably average to only slightly good looking. Gay men are also attracted almost mindlessly to muscles. If I recall you're a rather petite guy. So unless you have some twinkish facial features, the gays don't want you. (In bed.)
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 11:53 PM	-Well, that's both disheartening and a relief at the same time...
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 11:59 PM	I've been a construction worker for 25 years, and swinging a two pound hammer eight hours a day does wonderful things to your arms. :D Another quick case (only bcause I like to brag :P ) - About 8 years (and around 80lbs) ago, my wife had an 18 year old gay guy working with her at the rstaurant. According to the waitresses (and my wife) he was beautiful, and every girl between the ages of 16 and 25 were trying to get him to try the 'other side' with them. Now let me just point out right now, out of the dozen or so girls I'm am talking about I'd say about 10 of them were HOT, and the only two merely above average. I stopped in one day to ask her something, and she went around introducing me to some of the folks she worked with. When I got to the guy (can't remember his name), I went to shake his hand, and he became all flustered, turned red, and hurried into the back. Iwas like "what's with him?', but my wife had NO idea. Later that evening, when she got home, she told me he got embarrassed because when I walked in he was checking me out, not knowing I was Sandy's husband. He told my wife he thought I was SO hot, and he wanted me. :yuck: My wife, of course, thought that was funny as hell; she couldn't wait to tell me. So basically, every waitress in the place wanted him, he wanted ME, and I would have gladly bedded any girl in the place. Life just ain't fair.. :( Why can't I have that affect on women? :thinks: At least now with the added weight everyone thinks I'm gross. ;) Funny thing is, most of the waitresses that work with my wife now are either gay or bi. Don't know if its the food industry, or just a trend young people are going through. @LK - Don't sweat it, you just don't give off 'the vibe' On Topic - Nope, the rules repeat that number, but in different forms several times. They make mention of the fact that their are dozens of Khazari nobles EACH of which commands his own men numbering anywhere from 1,536 to 24,000!!! Yet Shou, at probably something like 200 times the size and 500 times the population only raised an army of 150,000, after losing 20,000 of the 25,000 men in their initial force. They really ought to hire a RW historian, military expert, and anthropologist (along with a cunning linguist ;)) to write some of this stuff, because sometimes the lore strains even a fantasy settings believability.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 12:16 AM	Those numbers are DUMB!
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 12:41 AM	They really ought to hire a RW historian, military expert, and anthropologist (along with a cunning linguist ;)) to write some of this stuff, because sometimes the lore strains even a fantasy settings believability. -Cunning Linguist used to psot here regularly. He/She (don't remember) hasn't been around for years, though...
GothicDan 05-25-07, 12:45 AM	If I recall correctly, they had some pretty big history nuts in TSR. That's why we got crap like Kara-Tur and the like.
The Ubbergeek 05-25-07, 01:58 AM	If I recall correctly, they had some pretty big history nuts in TSR. That's why we got crap like Kara-Tur and the like. Great things, they are. :P ;) It's nice Faerun, but a bit provincial. Twould be nice if someone would shout on tv that 'fantasy =/= middle age Europe', but sadly, even with such great examples, it don't pass stil. SIgh....
GothicDan 05-25-07, 03:29 AM	Point out once recently where anyone who does not like Kara-Tur, has said they don't like it because they think that "Fantasy should only be middle age Europe" (which even isn't an accurate description of Faerun itself). I ****ing dare you. Note: Dan cursing means that he's actually really, really annoyed. He doesn't do that online or in real life, 95% of the time. That happens when rockheads for months try to argue nonsensical points that aren't even periphery to the topics at hand, but rather personal assumptions of other peoples' preferences, despite their repeated clarifications otherwise.
Stigger 05-25-07, 11:37 AM	If I wanted a slightly skewed history book with the names changed to protect the innocent... ;) Was just too disappointing considering the fun stuff that could have been done, instead of the analog plopping down of Asia into the eastern end of the continent. I'm just wondering when the Faerunian drug lords show up and start subduing them...
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:39 AM	I think that's the true problem ALL of us had with it, Stigger. Or almost. Not Ubber's fallacious assertions of "WE DON'T LIKE ASIA LAWLZ CHINAMEN!"
Philalexandros 05-25-07, 04:41 PM	On topic: Shou fielding "only" an army of 150,000 or so individuals is far from unrealistic. Even rudimentary research on the mathematics behind logistics and supply would reveal this. Xerxes' army--which many historians STILL doubt was even 300,000 fighting men* (never mind the millions Herodotus asserts)--required over 4 years of preparation, to include each and every province of the Persian empire gicing up resources, ships, and supplies. Even so, it likely would not have been possible if Xerxes hadn't had at his disposal an entire province (Thrace) playing host to supply depots at the very front yard of Hellas. And that's not counting the hundreds, possibly thousands, of ships dedicated to simply transporting supplies along the coastline (above and beyond the thousands of pack animals and wagons used for the same purpose). And STILL, the effect on the conquered lands was such that the locals asserted entire rivers were "drunk dry." After all was said and done, though, the Persian army only managed to march through Hellas at an amazingly ponderous less than 10 miles per day. Few other armies ever came close to matching that (hypothesized) size. Alexander's army supposedly reached over one hundred thousand during the Bactrian and Indian campaigns. Caesar was almost certainly lying when he said he fought 250,000 Gauls at Alesia. The Romans fielded around 80,000 men at Cannae. Other western armies rarely approached that size until the great battles of the late 18th/early 19th centuries.
The Ubbergeek 05-25-07, 05:24 PM	If I wanted a slightly skewed history book with the names changed to protect the innocent... ;) Was just too disappointing considering the fun stuff that could have been done, instead of the analog plopping down of Asia into the eastern end of the continent. I'm just wondering when the Faerunian drug lords show up and start subduing them... Like Faerun, Kara-Tur and the otehrs are only superficialy similar to Earth. There is differences if you look close enough... And beside, you forget all that Abeir-Torilw as supposed, at least at first, to be like the lost twin of earth... Fitting. I should never show Dan Greyhawk then, what with Baklun, that american natives-like minor group and all. And Phila, that's a nice presentation of the numbers problem, thank you.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 08:52 PM	Like Faerun, Kara-Tur and the otehrs are only superficialy similar to Earth. There is differences if you look close enough... Not nearly enough. And beside, you forget all that Abeir-Torilw as supposed, at least at first, to be like the lost twin of earth... Fitting. NO. It wasn't. Where in the world did you get that idea? Ed's said that it's roughly an amalgamation of Western European archetypes with his own creativity applied. That is NOT the "lost twin of Earth."
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 11:09 PM	Like Faerun, Kara-Tur and the otehrs are only superficialy similar to Earth. There is differences if you look close enough... -I've not been looking hard enough for a very long time, then. If Kara-Tur was that different from the actual Orient, there wouldn't be a Kara-Tur Redux thread trying to make it more of an actual, independent world. And beside, you forget all that Abeir-Torilw as supposed, at least at first, to be like the lost twin of earth... Fitting. -I've never heard that. Of course, all fantasy resembles the actual word to some degree. It does because we simply know nothing else. Sure, in Faerûn, they fight with swords and arrows, wear shirts and pants, drink from mugs and cups, and eat with forks and knives, but that is largely where most major similarities end. -At least there are no Russio's to go with Kara-Tur's Tabot...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 05-26-07, 02:23 AM	Phil, I was't doubting the size of Shou's army, THAT made sense. What is weird is the fact that Khazari can field a regular army (not conscripts!) half the size of the Shou army. I doubt that 75, 000 people even live in that mountain-top country. And it goes on to say that they only lost so easily because the nobles wouldn't back-up the king, and the Tuigan use the 'back door' into the country. Thats another thing that made no sense... Two passes from the west leading through the mountains, and they build a series of towers and massive fortress/city at only one choke point. The other town/pass was practically undefended; I guess they counted on Khoja(?) keeping his mouth shut about Manass. And Dan, try not too get too excited by that town's name. ;)
GothicDan 05-26-07, 02:26 AM	Failure. :(
ShadezofDis 05-26-07, 01:44 PM	Phil, I was't doubting the size of Shou's army, THAT made sense. What is weird is the fact that Khazari can field a regular army (not conscripts!) half the size of the Shou army. I doubt that 75, 000 people even live in that mountain-top country. What Phil is getting at (unless I'm inserting words into his mouth again :)) is that the Shou's army was unrealistic. It was able to form and march in a shorter time than it would take a modern army to do so (from what I remember, been a dogs age since I read those books, the first one was great afai remember but that could have just been the tastelessness of childhood *g*). And there is always the "magic help" deal but they didn't feature a lot of magic in those books. I can't remember the details of the Tuigan invasion of the Shou but I thought they entered by destroying some "uber magic wall" (*cough*greatwallofchina*cough*) which no one in Shou could have predicted falling and then it was the swift movement of the Tuigan horde that pushed the Shou so far into their country (at least, from what I remember).
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 03:50 PM	And Dan, try not too get too excited by that town's name. ;) :rofl: -So, not only were the creators of Kara-Tur unoriginal, but they also gave cities unoriginal names, like "Man Ass". What's next? -No, I don't want to type that. It's a little rude...:embarrass
msatran 05-26-07, 05:55 PM	Look, after discovering that Macy's sells tee shirts with the words Mr. Happy on the front, I've given up hope for Planet Earth. "Hi, guys! *****! Says so right here!"
Uzzy 05-26-07, 06:03 PM	Far away, using an advanced version of Project Image that lets me cast higher level spells, within an invisible, warded mythal-tower. THAT'S how Elves fight, sirs. *considers for a moment, then passes a Knowledge (Dan) check, and uses Alter Self to appear as Brad Pitt* Anyway, fascinating topic. Learning a bit about Elves, so thanks guys!
GothicDan 05-26-07, 06:27 PM	*Grabs Brad Uzzy Pitt. Makes fierce love to.*
Uzzy 05-26-07, 06:45 PM	So, Elves make love not war? Intriguing. *Enjoys the sweet lovemaking* ;)
GothicDan 05-26-07, 06:46 PM	A little of column A, a little of column B. Like the Sacred Band of Thebes. We make war for love.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 08:31 PM	-Uzzy, you realize that Dan had True Seeing up, and saw right through that disguise, right? In the end, you accomplished your goal, with a little...uh...bonus, though, so I guess it's all good.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 08:38 PM	Pft. I have dyed hair and colored contacts... Does anyone think 'reality' really matters to me?
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 09:41 PM	I would say that would be a painfully obvious "no".:D
GothicDan 05-26-07, 09:52 PM	Brennon FTW. I judge beauty by beauty, not by what the status quo once was (of your appearance). If I look better blond, then I'll be blond. Period. It's the Sunite/Hanalian in me.
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:31 PM	Brennon FTW. I judge beauty by beauty, not by what the status quo once was (of your appearance). If I look better blond, then I'll be blond. Period. It's the Sunite/Hanalian in me. Hmm, but it's not beauty if it is only for show. That would be BS. :P
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:38 PM	I define physical beauty solely through physical beauty, which is ONLY about show (appearance). I am not referring to any other qualities of a person. I basically try to improve each and every one of my 'stats' individually. ;) And remember, in older editions, Elves got a bonus to COMELINESS, not Charisma. Ha.
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:46 PM	Consider yourself a visual aid.;) Ha!:elf:
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:53 PM	Working on it, working on it... Need to get the piercing and the tat.. And the jogging.. I'll jog my ass off, I will, now that I have my mp3 player. On Topic (I'm trying!): I wonder how Elven sieges would go... Eithers on the offense or on the defense. I could see a coordinated group of Elves just wrecking havoc on a fortress, with translocation magic.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 11:45 PM	I wonder how Elven sieges would go... Eithers on the offense or on the defense. I could see a coordinated group of Elves just wrecking havoc on a fortress, with translocation magic. -I picture something along the lines of the classic Star Wars versus Star Trek argument. Your Death Star can be as big as you want, but all the defenses in the world are rendered useless when a small-but-well-trained strike team phases in to wreak havok on the unsuspecting stromtroopers within.
MaskedOne 05-26-07, 11:52 PM	That trick has certain problems. Notably if memory serves, the right type shield (i.e. most if you aren't facing borg) or good ECM and that team ain't gonna reach target. Of course, my knowledge of Star Trek is sorely lacking so I could be wrong here.
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 12:14 AM	-Not a fan of Star Trek either, so I wouldn't know. Who's to say that the Empire employs any of those things, though. It's not like they expect anyone to literally phase in out of nowhere, so it's unlikely that they'd have the specific technology to counter it. At first, anyway. If it happens a few times, I'm sure the Emperor's brain trust would get working on a solution.