Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Boda 04-15-07, 02:03 PM	If giants (in it's many races) are physically mightier then most other races, and also have longer lifespans, and have no general drawbacks, how come by looking to the FR map, there isnt a single giantkin realm? They can go toe-to-toe with most others, and and giant group can likely take down a comparable group of most other races, so with are they such a relativily unimportant species?
Tiamat2 04-15-07, 02:13 PM	If giants (in it's many races) are physically mightier then most other races, and also have longer lifespans, and have no general drawbacks, how come by looking to the FR map, there isnt a single giantkin realm? They can go toe-to-toe with most others, and and giant group can likely take down a comparable group of most other races, so with are they such a relativily unimportant species? One of the themes of FR is that many races are in relative decline compared to their peaks (elves, Yuan-ti, dwarves, any race other than humans) and giants are no exception. The FRCS and the Lost Empires of Faerun, among others, talk of Giant kingdoms that existed in the past, but are long gone. There is at least one significant giant kingdom remaining, however, under the rule of the Dodkong. My own explanation to this is that there are millions of humans and very few giants, so if the Giants formed a kingdom near a human nation, it would likely be overrun or destroyed as a threat. I will admit that the FR seems very light on an explanation for why non-evil giants are so rarely talked about.
Ramar Aulinvox 04-15-07, 02:41 PM	Well, I can think of three giant kingdoms off the top of my head. (1) the frost giant kingdom in the spine of the world, (2) the Dodkon (spelling?) stone giant kingdom in the upperdark near the Giant'sRun mountains, and (3) the Kingdom of Heartsvale [while it is ruled by humans, the human ruler is a descendant of a giant "avatar" and many giants are a part of the kingdom]. There are probably smaller kingdoms but humans don't recognize them. Most giants believe that other races (besides dragons) are beneath them (no pun intended) so they will not always contest holding of "their" land. For a greater insight, see the 2nd ed book Giantcraft
Boda 04-15-07, 03:35 PM	My own explanation to this is that there are millions of humans and very few giants, so if the Giants formed a kingdom near a human nation, it would likely be overrun or destroyed as a threat. I will admit that the FR seems very light on an explanation for why non-evil giants are so rarely talked about.-Tiamat2 Millions of humans didnt stop Luiren, Great Rift, Evereska, Surkh, and many other states of non-humans from being around. Humans dont act in unity of purpose. Besides, if giants prefer mountain regions, humans wouldnt be the prime contenders for it. If elves return is not considered widely as a threat, why would a cloud or storm giant state be? Sure the surronding territories to their cities wouldnt be claimed against ''little creatures'', but there arent even cities or towns of giantkin(with the exceptions of cairnhein and tholvarr).
Gray Richardson 04-15-07, 04:15 PM	Giants are very big. They need a lot of resources to sustain them. If their communities grow too large, they start competing with creatures around them. If they encroach into human, demi-human, or humanoid areas then this causes conflict. The giants usually end up getting killed off or culled back to manageable levels. Giants do best in small communities in out-of-the-way places where they have enough resources to support themselves and do not encroach on the territories of smaller peoples. Forests, mountains, hills, wilderness areas, cloud castles, the underdark, all these make good locations for groups of giants.
lightcwu 04-15-07, 04:46 PM	Giant hit dice suck. D8 hit dice, cleric progression, fighter saves and skill points. The only thing they have going for them is massive bonuses to STR. They are a nifty race and I've always liked them but they have hit dice of suck. In most fantasies giants are a formerly great race. My personal reasoning why is that things with better hit dice, like class hit dice, eventually evolve and then Giants lose.
Slayergnome 04-15-07, 06:43 PM	There is alot of unclaimed territory in the world of FR. Along with lots of giants in almost every kingdom. The Storm Peaks, the Great Glacier, etc. The Giants have their own little niche in the world. Dragons<Giants<Elfs<Dwarfs<Humans.......<Illithids! /history. :)
Grandmaster_Kane 04-15-07, 07:42 PM	There is alot of unclaimed territory in the world of FR. Along with lots of giants in almost every kingdom. The Storm Peaks, the Great Glacier, etc. The Giants have their own little niche in the world. Dragons<Giants<Elfs<Dwarfs<Humans.......<Illithids! /history. :) i think you mean humans< Dwarfves <Elfs< Giants <Illithids< Dragons < Leshay < Epic dragons (force & prismic) < Gods< AO & Lady of pain< My left toe (gm in the house)
Tiamat2 04-15-07, 08:05 PM	i think you mean humans< Dwarfves <Elfs< Giants <Illithids< Dragons < Leshay < Epic dragons (force & prismic) < Gods< AO & Lady of pain< My left toe (gm in the house) I think actually that he was trying to show the progression of the dominance of races. According to Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations, Illithids dominate the future and have come back into the past to prevent a cataclym that destroys them. He did leave out Aboleths, though, who dominated the world before dragons, according to the Aberrations book.
Old Sage 04-15-07, 08:42 PM	Nedeheim was the last major giant kingdom (at least so far as we know currently). It fell circa -5000 DR to the dwarves of High Shanatar. In many respects, Cairnheim and Murannheim are the "successor states" to Nedeheim. You'll find more on the status of Murannheim and the motivations of their leaders with respect to the legacy of Nedeheim in Power of Faerūn. There was also the giant kingdom in eastern Amn, called Darchar. 'Twas mentioned in passing in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast. It's not clear yet whether Darchar predated or postdated Nedeheim.
Slayergnome 04-17-07, 10:09 AM	I think actually that he was trying to show the progression of the dominance of races. According to Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations, Illithids dominate the future and have come back into the past to prevent a cataclym that destroys them. He did leave out Aboleths, though, who dominated the world before dragons, according to the Aberrations book. True I forgot the Aboleths. But I don't believe the illithids return to the past to stop the cataclysm that destroys them. But to make sure their plane spanning empire comes into effect.
Tiamat2 04-17-07, 11:56 AM	True I forgot the Aboleths. But I don't believe the illithids return to the past to stop the cataclysm that destroys them. But to make sure their plane spanning empire comes into effect. I don't have the book on me right now, but that's an interesting distinction that could be true. To escape the cataclysm that destroyed them, then. :)
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 07:07 PM	Giants are very big. They need a lot of resources to sustain them. If their communities grow too large, they start competing with creatures around them. -This is what happened to dinosaurs (in actual life, not in the Realms), and look at what happened to them...
Tiamat2 04-17-07, 07:17 PM	-This is what happened to dinosaurs (in actual life, not in the Realms), and look at what happened to them... A meteor/asteroid killed all the giants? :)
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 07:26 PM	A meteor/asteroid killed all the giants? :) -No, the fact that because of their large size, they needed more resources to sustain them. The meteor that hit Earth was the catalyst for their extinction, but eventually, had that event not happened, there simply would have been a shortage of resources for them, and the larger ones would have begun to die off.
Boda 04-17-07, 08:05 PM	so by that reasoning, halfling are more fit to survive than humans?(smaller size, less resources,etc) So why do dragons are still around? And if giants exist in larger comunities, wouldnt that make them a more powerful force?( and so gain resources of other races)
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 08:08 PM	so by that reasoning, halfling are more fit to survive than humans?(smaller size, less resources,etc) -They're much too lazy. But, no, Halflings are actually more inefficient than Humans, since those little guys consume more resources than Humans (on average). So why do dragons are still around? -Actual sciences don't have the variable to magic to contend with. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-17-07, 08:20 PM	Aw crud, what in tha, aw by lissy's tears. Argh! Fine... Boda..And if giants exist in larger comunities, wouldnt that make them a more powerful force?( and so gain resources of other races) Reply With Quote Bigger targets with less reserves. Genetic bottlenecks. Persecution by multiple races. Semi-active Pantheon. LOL, no hiding from Dragons.
Tiamat2 04-17-07, 08:21 PM	So why do dragons are still around? And if giants exist in larger comunities, wouldnt that make them a more powerful force?( and so gain resources of other races) Draconomicon goes into great (almost painful) detail on a dragon's metabolism and why they don't consume as much of an area's food supply as you'd think. Also, in FR and DnD as a whole, humans have hunted dragons to their current small population level.
MarkusTay63 04-18-07, 03:14 AM	Plus you guys are forgetting that the Giants and dragons both had several huge and powerful empires... until they came into conflict. Much of that is covered in the 2e Giantcraft sourcebook, but there is quite a bit about it in the 2e EotSS as well. The war mentioned by Sage is there, but it goes into the earlier times as well, when giants and Dragons ruled the lands of Intrigue. The Genies killed off most of the Dragons when they arrived, and the dwarves did a number on the giants centuries later, but it was the wars that they had with each other for thousands of years that weakened them to that point. And neither race is considered a 'creator race'.
Bonzai 04-18-07, 02:02 PM	I also believe that the Elven Empires rose up at the tail end of the age of dragons and giants. Infact, we know how the Elves dealt a death blow to the Dragon empires. So the elves beat them back, then made war upon themselves, and then the humans started to rise up into power.
MarkusTay63 04-18-07, 02:10 PM	That seems to be the way of it with most civilizations - They are the instruments of their own destruction (usually through aggresion). If the leaders of most of these cultures had been more benevolent to their neighbors, perhaps they would still be around (or at least, in a more powerful position).
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 05:15 PM	That seems to be the way of it with most civilizations - They are the instruments of their own destruction (usually through aggresion). If the leaders of most of these cultures had been more benevolent to their neighbors, perhaps they would still be around (or at least, in a more powerful position). -That wouldn't really work too well with, say Red Dragons, Stone Giants, and other things that are inherently evil, and are very agressive to begin with.
Boda 04-18-07, 06:08 PM	Assimilate. Anyway, I'm talking of today. So giants tend to prefer mountain areas. Most goodly races dont(except dwarves, but it not so more the mountains, but bellow them), so territorial dispute is not a main cause. As for resources, let's say than a giant consumes the same as 10 medium size creatures per day. So mountain ranges can support orckin(to horde like size), goblinkin(ditto), giants, dragons, dwarves, etc. So if giants kick the orcs and goblins out, there would plenty of resources left?(not to support giant cities of humanlike numbers, but a few hundreds?). Could the giants do it? Likely, since most orc and goblinkin are scared of them for start, and giants have not restrictions in cooperating with each other. So why dont they? Has for the wars vs elfs,humans,dwarfs, the first are in no condition to go to war, and other then the great rift region, neither are the dwarfs. That leaves Humans. Some humans nation could crush any such attempt, but other cannot. Could(or would) the Silver marches do it? Luskan? Mirabar? Ten-towns?Unlikely As for dragons, true that giants are bigger targets, but also(in average), more dangerous, after all, not many dragons can go toe to toe with a giant armed gang and leave unscarred. Why do so, when there are more easier targets around? As for giant laziness and absent deities,...well, we can only guess. Bottom line is, giants have several advantages over many other races, and have no crippling disadvantages that stop then from founding a nation(surface nation) in Faerun. Hell, even halfling have one! Besides, where are the near epic giant characters? The warriors, priests even wizards? They're not founding kingdom, they making war on anybody, they not researching hidden knowledges or magic, so what do this guys do all their lives?!
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 06:12 PM	Hell, even halfling have one! -Eh, that's a stretch of the word. ;) They're not founding kingdom, they making war on anybody, they not researching hidden knowledges or magic, so what do this guys do all their lives?! -The hang out with Halflings! :rimshot:
Gray Richardson 04-18-07, 09:10 PM	A meteor/asteroid killed all the giants? :)Yes, actually. Well, the Titans at least. There is some evidence that an asteroid, comet, moon shard or meteor shower (possibly related to the Tear Fall that spawned the dragon race) struck the area around the Sea of Fallen Stars about 32,000 years ago (give or take) and extinquished the Titan race, and perhaps a goodly portion of giant communities in the surrounding area. The impact itself may have enlarged the Sea of Fallen Stars or even created it by linking four or more smaller bodies together to form the much larger Sea. We may get some more hints about this event when the Grand History of the Realms comes out in September.
boards 04-18-07, 10:00 PM	Ah yes the nasty curses of curiosity and devotion.:D
boards 04-18-07, 10:01 PM	oops
Boda 04-19-07, 11:32 AM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;12141122]-Eh, that's a stretch of the word. ;) ??Halfling or kingdom??
MarkusTay63 04-19-07, 05:46 PM	-That wouldn't really work too well with, say Red Dragons, Stone Giants, and other things that are inherently evil, and are very agressive to begin with.One of of Elminster's best friends is a Red Dragon (Firebrand Flametongue), and Stone Giants are described in the Monster manual as shy, artistic types who love to play (music and games). Markustay - Defending monsters whenever they are maligned. :fight!: ;) :D
Lord Karsus 04-19-07, 07:02 PM	??Halfling or kingdom?? -I was referring to just 'kingdom', but now that you mention it, they both fit. ;) One of of Elminster's best friends is a Red Dragon (Firebrand Flametongue), and Stone Giants are described in the Monster manual as shy, artistic types who love to play (music and games). Markustay - Defending monsters whenever they are maligned. :fight!: ;) :D -There are always exceptions to the general rule of thumb. Just because there are one or two nice Red Wyrms doesn't mean that the race as a whole, which is born inherently Chaotic Evil, is nice. Oh, and I was thinking Fire Giants (You know, the evil ones).
Boda 04-20-07, 05:41 PM	Chaotic Evil cant found a nation? Still didnt get the hafling kingdom thing. Please elaborate. By their nature, empires always fall do to inner weaknesses. At their best, they overpower all around.
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 09:15 PM	Chaotic Evil cant found a nation? -No, they can. Markus originally said that if the leaders of any nation was more benevolent to their people, and those around them, said nations would last longer, to which I countered that this idea really wouldn't work with sentients that are inherently agressive and evil, such as Red Dragons, or Fire Giants. Still didnt get the hafling kingdom thing. Please elaborate. -It was a joke that obviously crashed and burned. When you mentioned Halflings have an organized nation, Lurien, I said, "Eh, that is a little stretch of the word." Like I said, something went wrong somewhere. :(
BrennonGoldeye 04-20-07, 09:49 PM	By their nature, empires always fall do to inner weaknesses. At their best, they overpower all around. Hmm. "At their best" kinda severly qualifies that statement. Let me use Rome. Rome didn't fall to inner weakness, even though it was frought with it. Rome fell to Germanic folk, lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of Germanic folk. I'm mostly northwestern Italian, which makes me.....you guessed it....Germanic folk.;) IMHO, and it is H since it is a matter of history, by their nature empires always fall to outside threats. It's just the outside threat that has(or is forced into) good timing. Welcome to cultural evolution.:)
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 11:38 PM	-To put that, and everything else together, if something is rotting from the inside, it can easily break. But, pressure needs to be applied on said rotting object for it to break.
BrennonGoldeye 04-21-07, 10:11 AM	Yeah, what he said.:D
Boda 04-21-07, 11:20 AM	sorry for not catching the joke.must be the blond in me. Empires fall to external threats, true, but at the height of their power, empires tend to surpass in power all around them. The Rome example, note that the roman empire was retreating long before the germanic peoples invaded. Note that Rome bordered germanic tribes since the beginning of the empire. Only after long period of inner turmoil did the empire fell. So the invasion was only the last stage of the fall. Didnt get one thing: if the giant empire of Ostoria fell before the ice age, why should the frost giants fell threated by it? Arent they imune to cold?
Lord Karsus 04-21-07, 07:47 PM	sorry for not catching the joke.must be the blond in me. -Eh, we all have our own problems to deal with. ;) Empires fall to external threats, true, but at the height of their power, empires tend to surpass in power all around them. The Rome example, note that the roman empire was retreating long before the germanic peoples invaded. Note that Rome bordered germanic tribes since the beginning of the empire. Only after long period of inner turmoil did the empire fell. So the invasion was only the last stage of the fall. -Well, like I said before, it takes both internal and external pressure to put any state down for the count, in most circumstances. Didnt get one thing: if the giant empire of Ostoria fell before the ice age, why should the frost giants fell threated by it? Arent they imune to cold? -From what I understand of ancient Giant history, and I'll admit that I am not a scholar on that subject, Ostoria fell due to two reasons. The first was the expansion of the Great Glacier. The second was internal conflict (Lanaxis, the leader of the Titans, poisoned the leaders of all of the different Giant tribes, except for one or two, and Othea herself). It's like what we were saying before. The conflicts between the Giant tribes was the internal problem, and the expansion of the Great Glacier was the external problem.
Eatable_Dice 04-22-07, 01:39 PM	Plus, the Frost Giants themselves may be immune to cold, but the things they eat are not so though, unless they have a diet based on Frost Worms, Remorhazes and White Dragons.
Boda 04-24-07, 03:50 PM	So if the giants are haing the same breeding problems the dwarfs where, why wouldnt Annam grant them a thunder blessing to? It even makes more sense that in the dwarf case because he a god of fertility and Moradin's not!
MarkusTay63 04-24-07, 03:55 PM	Because Annam is pi$$ed at the FR giants, because his wife slept around and created the giant-kin. I believe he had to make some kind of deal and leave FR alone forever, so there is no help coming to the giants through him.
BrennonGoldeye 04-24-07, 08:32 PM	sorry for not catching the joke.must be the blond in me. Empires fall to external threats, true, but at the height of their power, empires tend to surpass in power all around them. The Rome example, note that the roman empire was retreating long before the germanic peoples invaded. Note that Rome bordered germanic tribes since the beginning of the empire. Only after long period of inner turmoil did the empire fell. So the invasion was only the last stage of the fall. I agree with everything you just said. I would add a few words, but hey.:) Didnt get one thing: if the giant empire of Ostoria fell before the ice age, why should the frost giants fell threated by it? Arent they imune to cold? Yes, yes they are. They also have to eat.
Boda 04-25-07, 08:03 AM	so this means that Annam is not going to be a Greater deity much longer, since he doesnt care about his worshipers. But what about the other giant gods? Dont they do anything about it?! Maybe this theory of giant's being geneticlly lazy ha a divine reason!
Lord Karsus 04-25-07, 08:38 AM	so this means that Annam is not going to be a Greater deity much longer, since he doesnt care about his worshipers. -A deity's "power level" is determined by two things- the worship he/she gets from his/her followers, and his/her portfolios. So, a deity need not care about his/her followers to still be a powerful deity. But, in this case, there is no evidence that I can think of that shows that the Giants themselves have ever turned away from Annam. Also, in the pre 3e days, Annam could have been recieving "power" from his worshippers on other Planes/Crystal Spheres, as Annam is most certainly a multispheric deity.
Eatable_Dice 04-25-07, 05:13 PM	However I still think that Giants do not receive a thunder blessing because they are very hard to play with, in the sense that they unbalance the game. Sometimes these decisions are just metagame...
Boda 04-25-07, 10:58 PM	-A deity's "power level" is determined by two things- the worship he/she gets from his/her followers, and his/her portfolios. So, a deity need not care about his/her followers to still be a powerful deity. But, in this case, there is no evidence that I can think of that shows that the Giants themselves have ever turned away from Annam. Also, in the pre 3e days, Annam could have been recieving "power" from his worshippers on other Planes/Crystal Spheres, as Annam is most certainly a multispheric deity. Sure, but if doesnt care about his worshipers, shouldnt the other giant deities start to gain more importance in the pantheon? Besides, gainning power from other spheres shouldnt count for his status on the FR, or else the native deities ( like Cyric) should be a lot less powerful that he, and there not.
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 12:22 AM	Sure, but if doesnt care about his worshipers, shouldnt the other giant deities start to gain more importance in the pantheon? Besides, gainning power from other spheres shouldnt count for his status on the FR, or else the native deities ( like Cyric) should be a lot less powerful that he, and there not. -Keep a few things in mind. What we're discussing contains a lot of cross 2e-3e pollination. According to strict 3e intepretation of everything, yes, Annam should be waning, or should have already dwindled away. According to 2e logic, which is what I (and many others) base things off of, Annam may have few direct worshippers in Realmspace, but he has plenty of worshippers in other places, that contribute to his actual strength, as he is a multispheric deity. -I can't tell you why the other members of the Giant Pantheon haven't "rocked the boat" or anything, though.
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 06:55 PM	Plus, the Frost Giants themselves may be immune to cold, but the things they eat are not so though, unless they have a diet based on Frost Worms, Remorhazes and White Dragons. Well, frost worms, remorhazes and white dragons do need to eat. But giants have a lot of things counting against them, their size, not being elven and their belly-buttons. Giants simply don't have the inclination to conquer everything either (Sothillisian Empire might be different, but they're OGRES!). Giants can't hide when nasty dragons come searching for something to disembowel. And as for food, they're quite high up in the food chain (not as high as elves, obviously) so they've gotta be fewer than the rest (and the reason elves are more numerous are the ears). Edit: And their skulls make lovely houses for dwarves!
Boda 04-27-07, 07:28 PM	Well, frost worms, remorhazes and white dragons do need to eat. But giants have a lot of things counting against them, their size, not being elven and their belly-buttons. Giants simply don't have the inclination to conquer everything either (Sothillisian Empire might be different, but they're OGRES!). Giants can't hide when nasty dragons come searching for something to disembowel. No, they cant hide,..., but they could kill the dragon. And hiding in woods(flamable) like elfs is hardly a safer choice. And as for food, they're quite high up in the food chain (not as high as elves, obviously) so they've gotta be fewer than the rest (and the reason elves are more numerous are the ears). ?!?They could eat elfs! That makes higher in the food chain. And orcs dont share your pespective in number of the food chain(they eat halfling,gnomes,dwarfs, and anything they can get). Edit: And their skulls make lovely houses for dwarves! True. But only bachelor dwarfs!
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 10:18 PM	No, they cant hide,..., but they could kill the dragon. And hiding in woods(flamable) like elfs is hardly a safer choice -Why wouldn't a Giant (any type) hide when a mighty Wyrm comes stompin' around? Giants have brains, you know.
Derren S. 04-28-07, 02:27 AM	Its obvious that the FR ignores all monsterous beings, even if intelligent, when it comes to land and civilization. Trying to find explanations for this is fruitless because there is no logical explanation. With much assuming and guessing you might be able to find an explanation for one race, but you can never find explanations for all races. There are so many races in the FR which are flat out superior to human or elves or at least compareable like dragons, giants, beholders, bugbears, doppelganger, hobgoblins, goblins, gnolls and so on. And non of them have any kind of advanced civilization or even a country in the whole FR while humans have more than a dozend. And why? Because humans are in the PHB and orcs, goblins, dragons, etc. are in the MM. Thats all. If the PHB races would not recieve a special treatment there would be A lot less human kingdoms More heavily mixed kingdoms A lot small, racial kingdoms That the ginats have no lands because their uncaring deities is not true. Humans have no deity at all and are currently the most powerfull race.
Boda 04-28-07, 05:35 PM	Its obvious that the FR ignores all monsterous beings, even if intelligent, when it comes to land and civilization. Trying to find explanations for this is fruitless because there is no logical explanation. With much assuming and guessing you might be able to find an explanation for one race, but you can never find explanations for all races. There are so many races in the FR which are flat out superior to human or elves or at least compareable like dragons, giants, beholders, bugbears, doppelganger, hobgoblins, goblins, gnolls and so on. And non of them have any kind of advanced civilization or even a country in the whole FR while humans have more than a dozend. And why? Because humans are in the PHB and orcs, goblins, dragons, etc. are in the MM. Thats all. If the PHB races would not recieve a special treatment there would be A lot less human kingdoms More heavily mixed kingdoms A lot small, racial kingdoms That the ginats have no lands because their uncaring deities is not true. Humans have no deity at all and are currently the most powerfull race. Yes, my opinion also. Very human centric place.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 06:07 PM	Yes, something I've been pointing out as central to the campaign setting - the slow dissapearance of other races and the rise of man. WotC has been changing that slowly, and ret-conning Ed's flavor just a tad bit too much for my liking. I have nothing at all against other races, being a DM I use them all the time. But the idea that the 'fantastical' is slowly dissapearing is a sad, yet campaign-worthy, underlying element. The lowering of the magic level corresponds to that - There used to be 'incredible magics' that mortal wizards once tossed about with ease, but now they have to be limited to 9th level (for the most part). I could see this as a slow deterioration of the Weave, due to the number of inherintly magical creatures being wiped out, and in a few hundred years perhaps mages will be reduced to lev.8 spells. Not that that's happening in canon, mind you, but it would make for an epic campaign, with heroes having to STOP adventurers from killing off the last of the Dragons and what not. -A deity's "power level" is determined by two things- the worship he/she gets from his/her followers, and his/her portfolios. So, a deity need not care about his/her followers to still be a powerful deity. But, in this case, there is no evidence that I can think of that shows that the Giants themselves have ever turned away from Annam. Also, in the pre 3e days, Annam could have been recieving "power" from his worshippers on other Planes/Crystal Spheres, as Annam is most certainly a multispheric deity.Plus Annam is multi-spheric, he could give a rat's @ss about FR giants.
GothicDan 04-28-07, 09:46 PM	Note that the human-centrism isn't something that is unique to FR, and in truth it wasn't a part of FR at all. Remember Lurue was the ORIGINAL goddess of magic, not Mystra. TSR TURNED it human-o-centric. (Ed used this term himself.)
Mazaron 04-28-07, 10:44 PM	If giants (in it's many races) are physically mightier then most other races, and also have longer lifespans, and have no general drawbacks, how come by looking to the FR map, there isnt a single giantkin realm? They can go toe-to-toe with most others, and and giant group can likely take down a comparable group of most other races, so with are they such a relativily unimportant species? This has been discussed before, including in Dragon magazine though not specifically with relation to the FR. Basically, giants while pound for pound very tough take years to get to breeding age and mature at a slow rate, slow when compared with humans and slower still with comparision to goblinoids. It is one of the races the demihumans are in decline; humans make more humans faster than dwarves can make more dwarves or elves can make more elves. Humans have shorter childhoods, have larger families, and while an individiual human is worth much less than a dwarf, elf, or giant in many cases, he or she is much more easily replaced. Think of endangered species on Earth, many of them are large, slow-breeding animals like sharks, tigers, and rhinos, but not animals with shorter lifespans that mature faster in most cases, like rats or starlings. Having said THAT, I do think giants should have had their own place in the FR. I used the wood giants from when they first appeared in Dragon magazine as a NPC race and later as a PC race (before even the 2E Humanoid Handbook) and placed them in their own region of Gulthmere. Beyond that I never really used giants. Nothing against them, just never really used them. Several areas of the FR jump out as places that might have them, but all are remote and don't border populous human nations.
Mazaron 04-28-07, 10:50 PM	Hmm. "At their best" kinda severly qualifies that statement. Let me use Rome. Rome didn't fall to inner weakness, even though it was frought with it. Rome fell to Germanic folk, lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of Germanic folk. I'm mostly northwestern Italian, which makes me.....you guessed it....Germanic folk.;) IMHO, and it is H since it is a matter of history, by their nature empires always fall to outside threats. It's just the outside threat that has(or is forced into) good timing. Welcome to cultural evolution.:) You are right. And it was a much more gradual thing than what the popular imagination has. The Germanic folks moved in, admired the light and might of Rome, just wanted a piece of the action, their place in the Sun. They had no intention of overthrowing Rome at first, and the Romans saw them as useful at first, providing more troops, settling declining areas, defending the borders against more hostile groups.Over time too many came in, Roman control was poor over them, too many soldeirs were Germanic and not Roman, the Germanic peoples outbred the Romans...excellent analogy. Much would happen in a fantasy setting were humans to settle dwarf, elf, or giant lands. Or in my campaign, goblins to settle human lands legitimately.
Derren S. 04-29-07, 04:24 AM	Basically, giants while pound for pound very tough take years to get to breeding age and mature at a slow rate, slow when compared with humans and slower still with comparision to goblinoids. But wouldn't goblins now dominate Faerun and not humans? And certainly, giants mature and reproduce faster than elves, dwarves and maybe gnomes yet those races have land of their own and advanced civilizations while giants have next to nothing.
Mazaron 04-29-07, 08:41 AM	But wouldn't goblins now dominate Faerun and not humans? And certainly, giants mature and reproduce faster than elves, dwarves and maybe gnomes yet those races have land of their own and advanced civilizations while giants have next to nothing. I do agree that giants probably do mature and breed faster than elves and dwarves, but not only is not still not as fast as humans as it has been pointed out in other posts in this thread, giants require large amounts of resources as they simply eat more. Just like an elephant herd or a lion pride needs a large territory in which to feed, so would giants (whether they are hunter-gatherers or raise sheep or whatnot). As to your first point about golbins and orcs, who is to say that they don't or won't? Some areas of the realms like the Orsraun Mountains south of Gulthmere (well, in my campaign at any rate), the Spine of the World Mountains near Icewind Dale, and the mountains ringing Anauroch (as well as Anauroch itself) have a great many goblinoids. In my campaign the PCs pushed for missionary groups among the goblinoids and as a result many became neutral if not good aligned. At first the numbers were very small, but by word spreading and the good aligned and neutral populations breeding, their numbers really started to grow. Many moved to cities, and well, that's another story.
Lord Karsus 04-29-07, 10:30 PM	But wouldn't goblins now dominate Faerun and not humans? And certainly, giants mature and reproduce faster than elves, dwarves and maybe gnomes yet those races have land of their own and advanced civilizations while giants have next to nothing. -Remember what Maz was saying about "individual worth"? Well, that's just it. It takes so many Goblins to equate to one Human that the Humans have been sucessful in keeping them down.
Stigger 04-29-07, 10:39 PM	Well, that and the idea that with such a rapid breeding cycle and a finite amount of resources, even with those massive numbers, they don't have the raw materials to sustain them for all that long before starvation and internal pressure sets in to limit their numbers by warring on the nearest competitor, which usually is each other as I understand it. It's a vicious cycle they seem to be trapped in, and one they don't look too likely to get out of in the near future. Overpopulation is generally one of the major problems for most undeveloped nations really, and tends to cascade all the other problems besetting them. And yet some still have problems with introducing concepts like family planning into assistance programs to try to help them get a handle on those problems... bah.
Mazaron 04-30-07, 12:06 AM	-Remember what Maz was saying about "individual worth"? Well, that's just it. It takes so many Goblins to equate to one Human that the Humans have been sucessful in keeping them down. Yes, pound for pound, given physical abilities, training, and motivation, humans are generally superior to goblinoids. Also, other goblin traits tend to work against them, such as the chaotic nature of some of the races, their infighting, their lack of access to good resources, and a lack of goblin champions, any equivalents to human, dwarf, elf, gnome, and halfling adventurers. Even half-orcs in the game materials tend to side with human/demihuman civilization. I think 3E (and before that in 2E with the Humanoid Handbook if anyone remembers that) went a long way to address my latter point. There is no reason there can't be relatively high level and even pretty organized goblin and orc adventurers, be they shamans, druids, rangers, fighters, barbarians, or what not. This is not to say that humans will always keep goblilns down. Maybe some "perfect storm" arises, a combination of organized and well-led goblins with goblin champions (or orc, or gnoll) fight against humans who are disorganized, fighting one another,and poorly led, perhaps reeling from some dragon incursion, the Tuigan horde, a plague, or what have you. Maybe just as demihumans are doom to be replaced by humans, maybe goblins are fated to replace humans.
Lord Karsus 04-30-07, 12:09 AM	This is not to say that humans will always keep goblilns down. Maybe some "perfect storm" arises, a combination of organized and well-led goblins with goblin champions (or orc, or gnoll) fight against humans who are disorganized, fighting one another,and poorly led, perhaps reeling from some dragon incursion, the Tuigan horde, a plague, or what have you. Maybe just as demihumans are doom to be replaced by humans, maybe goblins are fated to replace humans. -While not on the global scale, this has happened numerous times in different locations. Most recently, we have King Obould Many-Arrows taking over large portions of the North from Human settlers, in DR 1369.
Mazaron 04-30-07, 12:15 AM	-While not on the global scale, this has happened numerous times in different locations. Most recently, we have King Obould Many-Arrows taking over large portions of the North from Human settlers, in DR 1369. Sure, Realms history is full of local extinctions of dwarves, elves, and on some occasions humans, one of the defining characteristics of the Realms we love so. I was thinking in the long view, that trends point to some inevitable Ragnraok like doom where goblins and orcs will one day defeat humanity and at best they will exist in enclaves. That is, if adventurers aren't around to save the day! That is one of the things that makes heroic fantasy, heroic.
Stigger 04-30-07, 01:29 AM	Tad bit dark and dreary for my liking, and reeking of Tolkien, but if it makes you happy... real world is ugly enough for me to start dwelling on it during my recreation. ;)
Mazaron 04-30-07, 12:08 PM	Tad bit dark and dreary for my liking, and reeking of Tolkien, but if it makes you happy... real world is ugly enough for me to start dwelling on it during my recreation. ;) Well, not sure how real world any of that was, unless real world = unhappy setting, present or future. Sure, whatever works for your campaign, I can easily imagine settings where the goblins just can never take over, demographics not being enough. As far as the decline of demihumans and giants, one of the great things about being a DM is that you change things. Maybe in your FR or your world they are not in decline.
MarkusTay63 04-30-07, 02:05 PM	I like to think of Orcs and all goblinoids as an evolutionary dead-end. Like Neanderthals, they had their time and place, but now it is past time for their extinction. Thats the problem with a fantasy setting, unlike the RW they never seem to get rid of any species for good. Multiple dominant species isn't overly realistic, eventually one will enihilate the other.
Mazaron 04-30-07, 02:12 PM	I like to think of Orcs and all goblinoids as an evolutionary dead-end. Like Neanderthals, they had their time and place, but now it is past time for their extinction. Thats the problem with a fantasy setting, unlike the RW they never seem to get rid of any species for good. Multiple dominant species isn't overly realistic, eventually one will enihilate the other. Well, in a fantasy setting the world isn't as old in most cases as our world is, you have pantheons who actively work for their particular race (or help those who do), you have powerful adventurers or NPCs who can tip the scales one way or another, and not everyone sees the goblins as a dead end. Having said THAT, yes, I think most worlds have way too many sentient races. I have no problem with subraces; talking about say Gray, Wood, and Wild Elves is not wholly unlike talking about Celts, Vikings, and Persians - they are still all basically elves, just with different cultures. I think part of the fun is to have more than one race of sentients to be sure, but if you used all the books you would have dozens and dozens of races. Sure, a few are aliens - in the FR, orcs are not native to Toril, they arrived during the Orcgate Wars. But that surely can't apply to all of them. I would make a few races highly local. I had ettercaps for instance, but they were a degenerate isolated relic race, remnants of a much older race that was far more widespread but long extinct.One big PC adventure and the race could be made extinct.
MarkusTay63 04-30-07, 03:08 PM	LOL dozens? There are over twenty in the Sea alone. :D I'm compiling a list, and I've only gone through a couple of books so far, but I'm already way over a hundred. Except in the case of the Drow (who should be considered a different 'species' by now), I'm not even counting seperate sub-races! remember, ANYTHING with an IQ over 3 is capable of understanding human speech, even if they do not have the 'equipment' to produce it themselves. Almost EVERY monster type counts at that point.
The Ubbergeek 04-30-07, 04:42 PM	I doubt orcs and goblinoids are doomed - they may be warlike and such, they have one big advantage above humans and the good-hearted races; they outbreed the others.
Stigger 04-30-07, 05:11 PM	Nothing a little Raid and some ruthlessness couldn't solve...
Mazaron 04-30-07, 08:07 PM	LOL dozens? There are over twenty in the Sea alone. :D I'm compiling a list, and I've only gone through a couple of books so far, but I'm already way over a hundred. Except in the case of the Drow (who should be considered a different 'species' by now), I'm not even counting seperate sub-races! remember, ANYTHING with an IQ over 3 is capable of understanding human speech, even if they do not have the 'equipment' to produce it themselves. Almost EVERY monster type counts at that point. I don't have a problem with subraces and am not sure why you should with your issue here; I view the various sub races of elves much akin to the various nationalities of humans. It doesn't have the same problem really of so many different sentient races, they are just cultural differences in the end. Drow, yes they are a different race. How many races would you want then? Do you limit them in your campaign world? I would give a pass on these categories: 1> Faerie. They pretty much are all found together in troops, are rarely seen, maybe in fact Outsiders, and don't really live in most settings anyway as nations or have regions to themselves. 2> Any Outsider or Elemental sentient race, like fiend, celestial, or genie. They are just visiting really! A hundred is quite excessive, I agree, though I believe the rule books hint that no one has to use all of the monsters present. My campagin had: 1. Dwarves 2. Elves 3. Halfings 4. Orcs 5. Goblins/Hobgoblins/Bugbears (castes of one race) 6. Lizard men 7. The Faerie (really all one group, or two groups, the Seelie and Unseelie Courts) 8. Wood giants 9. various dragon species (which, yes, are different species, I used all five original chromatics and metallics, plus the faerie and psuedodragon) 10. sahuagin 11. Illithid 12. Humans of course, duh 13. Wemics 14. Aquatic elves 15. Sea giants 16. Hurgeon 17. Gnolls Gnomes were never directly used but I never ruled them out, ditto the other giant races. Centaurs were hinted at, never used directly. I considered satyrs/dryads part of the faerie, as much Elemental as Outsider. I never thought that an excessive number. The world was big enoughfor them, they fit my storyline, and the players enjoyed them (or loved to hate them in character).
Stigger 05-01-07, 01:39 AM	It's been implied in 3e that the Fae are a native race to Faerun actually... one of the originals funnily enough. Though that may or may not be true, depending on what source you look at. As to subraces, I think Markus was more getting at not counting them on his tally of races, though as I recall, he's not a big fan of subraces to begin with... could be wrong about that though.
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 06:08 PM	Thats the problem with a fantasy setting, unlike the RW they never seem to get rid of any species for good. Multiple dominant species isn't overly realistic, eventually one will enihilate the other. -Well, going by the "standard" list of the Iqua'Tel'Quessir, the majority of them are gone and extinct. That's a start...
Mazaron 05-01-07, 08:41 PM	It's been implied in 3e that the Fae are a native race to Faerun actually... one of the originals funnily enough. Though that may or may not be true, depending on what source you look at. As to subraces, I think Markus was more getting at not counting them on his tally of races, though as I recall, he's not a big fan of subraces to begin with... could be wrong about that though. I didn't know that but that woulnd't surprise me. Not only did the gods of the faerie races live in Elysium and the Beastlands, but they rank and file fey, if there is such a thing, abounded there too. I would probably place them as Outsiders in that sense, but I used fey quite a bit and also took them to be a part of the land too. Well, there ARE quite a few dwarven and elven subraces, maybe too many, but I would still treat them as if were talking about Chinese, French, or American humans (which would probably emphasize culture, language, dress etc than any real gaming ability differences, though there are settings, such as Birthright, which have some minor racial abilities among various human subraces). DM's call definitely. I never found there to be any real differenced between high (or sun) and gray (or moon) elves. Wood elves it was more of cultural, political thing, but is that really a different race? To steer it back to giants, I think some giant races are quite distinct and there is quite a bit of precedent for them TO be distinct, notably the frost and fire giants (Norse mythology!), and stone giants are quite distinct. Storm, cloud, and hill giants look depending upon the artist to look largely alike physically. Sure, the hill giants look stupid and are shown wearing cave bear skins or what have you and the storm giants have big flowing beards and a "thou shall not look" about them, but are they really that different? To me they could be relegated to subraces (the storm giant weather abilites could merely be the result of spellcaster individuals, not a racial trait, and as far as cloud islands, just living them hardly makes one a differrent race in gaming terms).
BrennonGoldeye 05-01-07, 09:27 PM	So we all grasp how complicated our RW is right? There are neighbors in a town in Africa who are more genetically seperated from one another than I(a mostly Italo/Greek Euromutt) am from the Japanese Crown Prince. There is just as much physical difference between an Sherpa and a Zulu as there is between a Wild and a Drow. Now add Magic. Everyday magic. Flintstones Vitamin magic. Rain summoning, crop growing, childbirth easing magic. Just wanted to make the point. :)
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 10:58 PM	Well, there ARE quite a few dwarven and elven subraces, maybe too many, but I would still treat them as if were talking about Chinese, French, or American humans (which would probably emphasize culture, language, dress etc than any real gaming ability differences, though there are settings, such as Birthright, which have some minor racial abilities among various human subraces). -There are many differences between the actual subraces. The things you cited (Language, dress, and so on) do vary from culture to cultue. For example, if you pair one of the Vil Adonrath (Lythari from the Eastern Wastes) with an Aquatic Elf, I'm sure you'd get an interesting and productive conversation (Sarcasm). I never found there to be any real differenced between high (or sun) and gray (or moon) elves. Wood elves it was more of cultural, political thing, but is that really a different race? -Sun Elves and Moon Elves have been living side by side (for the most part) for untold eons. The two cultures are very similar, and usually go hand in hand. The only major differences are genetic things, each subraces' outlook on Faerūn, and religion. And yes, Wood Elves are a different subrace.
Mazaron 05-01-07, 11:37 PM	-There are many differences between the actual subraces. The things you cited (Language, dress, and so on) do vary from culture to cultue. For example, if you pair one of the Vil Adonrath (Lythari from the Eastern Wastes) with an Aquatic Elf, I'm sure you'd get an interesting and productive conversation (Sarcasm). **Differences officially but not major ones in most cases I think, and if a DM wants to smooth them out it would be a rather easy thing to do. -Sun Elves and Moon Elves have been living side by side (for the most part) for untold eons. The two cultures are very similar, and usually go hand in hand. The only major differences are genetic things, each subraces' outlook on Faerūn, and religion. And yes, Wood Elves are a different subrace. ***They are a distinct subrace in the books, but the way I played them how they acted and where the lived were what made them distinct from mainstream gold/moon elves. I cannot remember off the top of my head without looking at a book how they were different in terms of abilities, hair color, or what have you.
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 01:41 PM	-Sun Elves and Moon Elves have been living side by side (for the most part) for untold eons. The two cultures are very similar, and usually go hand in hand. The only major differences are genetic things, each subraces' outlook on Faerūn, and religion. And yes, Wood Elves are a different subrace.You forgot the most IMPORTANT difference... Gold Elves tend to drown on rainy days... :smirk: Sorry... couldn't resist. ;)
Derren S. 05-05-07, 02:24 PM	-Sun Elves and Moon Elves have been living side by side (for the most part) for untold eons. The two cultures are very similar, and usually go hand in hand. The only major differences are genetic things, each subraces' outlook on Faerūn, and religion. And yes, Wood Elves are a different subrace. Which is actually completly idiotic. Sun elves are lawful while moon elves are chaotic. Their cultures would be very different.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 03:57 PM	Sun Elves have a tendency to be more Chaotic than Moon Elves, does not mean that as a whole they are Chaotic. And who said that two subcultures couldn't coexist together?
Derren S. 05-05-07, 04:15 PM	Sun elves more chaotic than moon elves? Aren't those the guys with all the noble houses etc? Thats not really a chaotic concept. Of course a lawful and a chaotic subculture can coexist, especially when they are also good but the wouldn't look very similiar. Law and chaos are as opposed as good and evil are.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 04:33 PM	Sorry, I meant to write Lawful. That being said, I'd have to disagree with LK and say that Sun Elven culture is pretty significantly different than Moon Elven... At least, almost as much as Conservative vs. Liberal in the US.
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 06:58 PM	Sorry, I meant to write Lawful. That being said, I'd have to disagree with LK and say that Sun Elven culture is pretty significantly different than Moon Elven... At least, almost as much as Conservative vs. Liberal in the US. -Their personal views/preferences/whathaveyou are different in many cases (Law vs. Chaos), but when you look at the two groups, the basic premises behind their different societies are similar. That is what I meant. Moon Elf society, on it's own, isn't savage and insular. Sun Elves, on their own, don't capture slaves and sacrifice them to the Seldarine. Without looking at the differing viewpoints on chaos and law, the core concepts behind the two subraces are very similar. -The two different outlooks on things really compliment each other, really, what, with the law and chaos. As you mentioned, Dan, there are liberals and conservatives. But, it takes both sides to create the "moderate area", which is, generally, the ideal situation to live in.
boards 05-05-07, 08:24 PM	-Their personal views/preferences/whathaveyou are different in many cases (Law vs. Chaos), but when you look at the two groups, the basic premises behind their different societies are similar. That is what I meant. Moon Elf society, on it's own, savage and insular. Sun Elves, on their own, don't capture slaves and sacrifice them to the Seldarine. Without looking at the differing viewpoints on chaos and law, the core concepts behind the two subraces are very similar. -The two different outlooks on things really compliment each other, really, what, with the law and chaos. As you mentioned, Dan, there are liberals and conservatives. But, it takes both sides to create the "moderate area", which is, generally, the ideal situation to live in. Moon Elves are savage and insular:eek: I thought Moon Elves were the least insular elves in Faerun, Wild Elves I could see.
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 09:22 PM	This is starting to confuse the heck out of me. Elves.... Just when you think you know them :nonono: Now, lets get back to giants. When I read the title of this thread, I alway think - "Giants, the OTHER white meat" :D In Jack Vance's Dying Earth (you know, the novel Gary Gygax based his entire magic system on) there is a tribe of bedouin-like people who use giants the same way RW nomads use camels - including as food! I thought it was kinda gross when I read that (and so did the hero), but it did make sense in a fantastical sort of way. They were kept penned up, and did all the lifting and carrying. They even had sadles mounted on their backs... weird. The other thing I think of is that locale called the 'Giant's run'... ya know... 'the forgotten race' had to take place somewhere. ;) Okay, okay, that was REALLY bad, but I just had to say it. :P
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 09:42 PM	Moon Elves are savage and insular:eek: I thought Moon Elves were the least insular elves in Faerun, Wild Elves I could see. -D'oh! Thanks for pointing that out. I did some editing in that sentence, and it seems that I edited the 'isn't' out...:embarrass -I'll fix that now...
GothicDan 05-05-07, 09:51 PM	How is Dying Earth, Markus? Good or bad?
MarkusTay63 05-06-07, 01:01 AM	How is Dying Earth, Markus? Good or bad?Excellent, but you have to like old-school (50's) Sci-fi. Jack is all about atmosphere, and that book is dripping with it. Its actually a collection of short stories all taking place on the same planet, and because he occasionally uses characters from another story, or mentions the same location, it is all entirely believable, despite the fact that it is incredibly imaginative. I think you would like it from what you tell of your own world designs; everything is new and fresh, and no stereotypes. Its odd, but with all of that wonderous creativity, it almost feels 'familiar'. You'll have to read it to know what I mean, but you can cleary see where Gary Gygax got his ideas, from spell names to the character 'arch-types' (who are both new and yet familiar - most peculiar). And best of all, you can read it in one night. It left me wanting more (I only read it finally two months ago), and I understand he wrote a few other books set on this world. It is technically sci-fi, because it is set waaaay in the future, when the sun is just a giant red orb ready to 'go-out'. But it's so far into the future that it reads like pure fantasy, with wizards and warriors. Your are gonna SO love 'Chun the Unavoidable'; I don't know if that character cracks me up, or gives me nightmares.
GothicDan 05-06-07, 01:31 AM	It's totally at the top of my list now! Thanks!
shades of eternity 05-06-07, 01:45 PM	To be honest, the best example of a kingdom of giants actually comes from a non-wizard's suppliment (Mont Nimro). They stressed that the giants were banding together mainly to avoid extinction. They are in a warzone and have to swat away a rival race and are winning, but have some serious population issues that could cause great problems as they expand. They rely on huge sheep ranches to produce enough food for the kingdom. The different groups are separated not just by subrace, but by clan and juristiction. They are led by a king who actually really seems to have his act together. and even though the giant kingdom is predominantly evil, it is a truely fascinating study on species organization. also in a game with fabricate and create food/water, it's hard to blame resource issues.
MerrikCale 05-06-07, 10:23 PM	It's totally at the top of my list now! Thanks! same here