Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drizztrocks 05-23-07, 09:39 PM	I was wondering the origin of goblins and orcs. I know in lord of the rings orcs are corrupted elves, but what about in the forrgotten realms? And what's the difference between goblins and orcs. :confused:
Poison_Dusk 05-24-07, 12:09 AM	In the beginning all the gods met and drew lots for the parts of the world in which their representative races would dwell. The human gods drew the lot that allowed humans to dwell where they pleased, in any environment. The elven gods drew the green forests, the dwarven deities drew the high mountains, the gnomish gods the rocky, sunlit hills, and the halfling gods picked the lot that gave them the fields and meadows. Then the assembled gods turned to the orcish gods and laughed loud and long. "All the lots are taken!" they said tauntingly. "Where will your people dwell, One-Eye? There is no place left!" There was silence upon the world then, as Gruumsh One-Eye lifted his great iron spear and stretched it over the world. The shaft blotted the sun over a great part of the lands as he spoke: "No! You Lie! You have rigged the drawing of the lots, hoping to cheat me and my followers. But One-Eye never sleeps. One-Eye sees all. There is a place for orcs to dwell…here!," he bellowed, and his spear pierced the mountains, opening a mighty rift and chasms. "And here!," and the spearhead split the hills and made them shake and covered them in dust. "And here!," and the black spear gouged the meadows and made them bare. "There!" roared He-Who-Watches triumphantly, and his voice carried to the ends of the world. "There is where the orcs shall dwell! There they will survive, and multiply, and grow stronger, and a day will come when they cover the world, and they will slay all of your collective peoples! Orcs shall inherit the world you sought to cheat me of!"
Lord_Steve 05-24-07, 02:05 PM	Go Gruumsh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Drizztrocks 05-24-07, 03:44 PM	In the beginning all the gods met and drew lots for the parts of the world in which their representative races would dwell. The human gods drew the lot that allowed humans to dwell where they pleased, in any environment. The elven gods drew the green forests, the dwarven deities drew the high mountains, the gnomish gods the rocky, sunlit hills, and the halfling gods picked the lot that gave them the fields and meadows. Then the assembled gods turned to the orcish gods and laughed loud and long. "All the lots are taken!" they said tauntingly. "Where will your people dwell, One-Eye? There is no place left!" There was silence upon the world then, as Gruumsh One-Eye lifted his great iron spear and stretched it over the world. The shaft blotted the sun over a great part of the lands as he spoke: "No! You Lie! You have rigged the drawing of the lots, hoping to cheat me and my followers. But One-Eye never sleeps. One-Eye sees all. There is a place for orcs to dwell…here!," he bellowed, and his spear pierced the mountains, opening a mighty rift and chasms. "And here!," and the spearhead split the hills and made them shake and covered them in dust. "And here!," and the black spear gouged the meadows and made them bare. "There!" roared He-Who-Watches triumphantly, and his voice carried to the ends of the world. "There is where the orcs shall dwell! There they will survive, and multiply, and grow stronger, and a day will come when they cover the world, and they will slay all of your collective peoples! Orcs shall inherit the world you sought to cheat me of!" Thank you, that answers some of my questions, and i love the rip steve irwin! I feel the same way.:)
Drizztrocks 05-24-07, 03:45 PM	Thanks! that answers some of my questions. And i love the r.i.p. steve irwin! i feel the same way.:)
GothicDan 05-24-07, 03:49 PM	As to Orcs vs. Goblins... They're completely different. Not related in any way, just like Elves vs. Halflings.
Lord_Steve 05-24-07, 06:53 PM	Here, I just found this......I'm loving it, lol.... http://www.orcs.ca/orcsmain/resourceantho.html
ShadezofDis 05-25-07, 11:36 AM	Check races of Faerun for some details about Orcs. They are an interloper race, so all that "The gods chose their followers lands" thing is pure orcish propaganda. :) Don't know about Goblin's origins, I'm guessing they are an interloper race (well, races if you include hobgoblins, bugbears and those Dekanter ones) though they could be decended from a creator race (pretty unlikely) or the results of magical experimentation (not too unlikely really)
Poison_Dusk 05-25-07, 01:52 PM	How dare you question the word of Gruumsh! Actually I think that was not even a FR thing, but I love the story.
ShadezofDis 05-25-07, 02:19 PM	How dare you question the word of Gruumsh! Actually I think that was not even a FR thing, but I love the story. Well, it's because I prefer Dukagsh actually. :) Scro > Orcs But yeah, I think that's a generic orc creation myth, it might be GH specific but I'm not really solid on my GH lore.
Stigger 05-25-07, 03:03 PM	Well, its not like using creation myths to justify all sorts of atrocities is anything new...
Zevox 05-25-07, 11:56 PM	Aye, I recall that myth being mentioned once before. Its definitely not a Realms one - probably a Greyhawk one. I don't know about Goblins, but I do recall that Orcs are interloper race, just like Elves. I think most of the races other than the Creator Races are interlopers from some point or another, actually. Zevox
captaincarot 05-26-07, 06:06 AM	orcs definitely came to faerun through portals, goblins as far as i know there's noting mentioned about where they came from. except the dekanter ones which i think but not totally sure, they were the results of magical experimentation in the mines of dekanter by some mad mage. oh and ni to every one from the new guy!
souldnce9 05-26-07, 07:53 AM	Who really cares where they came from! All I know is I don't see why we just can't let them have a place to live! Like the that little Northern area above that Troll infested swamp! Maybe if we started treating them nicely and as one of our allies they would become more civilized. Geeze why is it a human has to think of these things when Elves and Dwarves live so much longer. :rolleyes:
ShadezofDis 05-26-07, 12:48 PM	Who really cares where they came from! All I know is I don't see why we just can't let them have a place to live! Like the that little Northern area above that Troll infested swamp! Maybe if we started treating them nicely and as one of our allies they would become more civilized. Geeze why is it a human has to think of these things when Elves and Dwarves live so much longer. :rolleyes: Because orcs; Do not have a unified enough "kingdom" in order to prevent orcish raids, thus they are in no positition to offer a treaty. Orcs do not wait to listen to envoys, they kill the envoy and more than likely eat them. All orcs send is either a raiding party or a horde, never is it a trade group or a diplomat or whatever. In short, it's because the orcs want nothing to do with an alliance.
Poison_Dusk 05-26-07, 05:45 PM	That is because when the glorious King Obauld tried,twice mind you, to have a kingdom he was opposed. If the orcs where not always treated like vermin and allowed they same things everyone else has, i.e. land, safe borders, and a kingdom of their own instead of being pushed to all the inhospitable places where they can not make a living other than raiding you humans would see that they can be just as civilized as the rest of you. Though I use that word loosely when dealing with elves and humans.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 05:58 PM	There's been no evidence of Orcs having been driven out of their territory.
souldnce9 05-26-07, 09:50 PM	I have personally been traveling through Obaulds territory for weeks now. Unmolested! All I needed was a badge with Obaulds crest on it and the Orcs leave you alone (Yes I had to kill a few to get them, but hey, such is life). While traveling I've seen much civilization. Give Obauld credit!
sillaric_culdanin 05-26-07, 10:17 PM	A couple of quick notes... Obould didn't try to settle a land, clear trees and plant farms. He attacked and slaughtered the dwarven inhabitants of a dwarven-built citadel. Now, in and of itself this is life, the strong take from the weak... in this case the Felbarran dwarves were weak so they lost. Now some years later the Felbarran dwarves used trickery to take their Citadel back and Obould's forces, drained as they were by battle against a rival orc horde were too weakened to take it back... awww shucks! Obould later on came roaring out of the mountains with a new horde, supported by drow trickery and giant strength and managed a stellar success. The orcs took huge tracts of land and as of the end of the trilogy still held them... hooray for orcs! Now, with regard to orcs being interlopers as far as I know only Grey Orcs were brought to Faerun by the Imaskari. Mountain Orcs (the ones in the MM) were always a part of Faerun... much as dragons and sarrukh are/were. With regard to the "gods drawing lots" myth, the way I heard it Gruumsh was sleeping (or more likely pulling the wings off a bird or skinning a cat) when the other gods drew... thus there was nothing left. Magluyiet created the goblinoid races as far as I know and in the older lore he was eternally at wars on the planes with Gruumsh and his ilk... but we have no lore regarding creation myths for his children in the Realms.
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 12:02 AM	-I think I might be suffering from a temporary penalty to my INT...:yuck:
Zevox 05-27-07, 12:06 AM	That is because when the glorious King Obauld tried,twice mind you, to have a kingdom he was opposed. Might that have something to do with his method? Slaughtering innocent humans and seizing their lands then attacking Dwarven Citadels tends to make you lots of enemies. Not that idiot Orcs would understand that, but ignorance is no excuse. Zevox
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 12:26 AM	-What's with the unabashed Orc apologeticism around here lately, anyway?
GothicDan 05-27-07, 12:29 AM	Evil is the new cool.
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 12:33 AM	-Figures...We defend Elves with canon to back up our points, and we're considered "groglords", or whatever the word is. You defend Orcs, Goblins, and what have you, with nothing but a whistle in the wind, and you're in. I don't get it.
Stigger 05-27-07, 12:43 PM	Just makes ones brain hurt...
Poison_Dusk 05-27-07, 12:52 PM	Might that have something to do with his method? Slaughtering innocent humans and seizing their lands then attacking Dwarven Citadels tends to make you lots of enemies. Not that idiot Orcs would understand that, but ignorance is no excuse. Zevox I always thought that was standard practice for building a kingdom. After all, it worked, at least for a time, for Brittan, Rome, Spain, The United States, and many smaller scale instances. If the only cost of building his kingdom is a few thousand dwarves and some humans then it is a small price. Besides, elves have done far worse things in the past.
Stigger 05-27-07, 12:58 PM	Yes, and you just tend to upset the neighbors and show yourself as a threat to everyone around you... and eventually they all just get sick of it, mobilize, and stomp on your country until you're either crushed or begin behaving...
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 02:18 PM	-What's with the unabashed Orc apologeticism around here lately, anyway?Sorry, I have that effect on people. ;) I once convinced an entire room of people that Jeffrey Dahmer was just misunderstood..... :rolleyes: Not to mention hungry. :eek: It helped that most of them were drunk and stupid, though; its much harder with an intelligent audience. :D To be honest, every time I think about a High magic Rirtual I can't help thinking how 'cool' it is. And I thought "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" was only an American saying. :dancin:
XHereticX 05-27-07, 03:15 PM	The orcs are like cockroaches. You can kill as many as you like but you will never be able to wipe out the filthy things.
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 03:18 PM	Thats sounds an awful like a Gold Elf speaking... but they say the same about Drow, humans, most other sentients creatures, etc... ;)
XHereticX 05-27-07, 03:21 PM	Thats sounds an awful like a Gold Elf speaking... but they say the same about Drow, humans, most other sentients creatures, etc... ;) Ahh, the Gold elves are so lovingly arrogant.
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 03:38 PM	True, thats the same reason why I love super villains. :D They want to rule the world not because they are evil, but because they KNOW they can do a better job.
Lord_Steve 05-27-07, 03:52 PM	Truth be told at the end of the triology the people all around King Oboulds new kingdom decided to let the orcs have what they won, but noooooooo, stupid dwarves and that Drizzt Do' Urden wont let them have what the rightfully earned through the means of war just like every other damnable nation in history.:mad: :mad: Acting like complete racists, just because they are orcs doesnt mean they cant have a land of their own, by the bloddy hells!!!! Even when they are minding their own bussiness in the montains and under the rocks, warring between their OWN CLANS, some group of adventurers have to come around and murder them for no other reason than the color of their skin and the tusks that pop out from under their lips.......UGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad:
souldnce9 05-27-07, 04:36 PM	Why don't the elves of Evermeet marry off their princess to King Obauld and then we can all just get along? :thinks: After all humans are willing to get along with anyone. :D Just an idea no need for spells! :hides:
GothicDan 05-27-07, 05:09 PM	They want to rule the world not because they are evil, but because they KNOW they can do a better job. That's almost exactly how I feel. *Whips up another Elven High Magic Curse for Soul.*
Poison_Dusk 05-27-07, 05:41 PM	Why would the mighty King Obauld want some pasty, stickish elf? But then again, they do taste wonderful.
souldnce9 05-27-07, 05:54 PM	:weep: Why am I getting attacked I'm just trying to be helpful. However if it is really that big a deal then send me some gold and I'll take care of Obauld for you! :plotting:
GothicDan 05-27-07, 06:07 PM	It's not like Obould couldn't be taken care of by any single Elven wizard. Last time I checked, he had no particular resistance to magic of any kind.
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 06:12 PM	Sorry, I have that effect on people. ;) It helped that most of them were drunk and stupid, though; its much harder with an intelligent audience. :D -Yeah, that might have helped just a bit. They want to rule the world not because they are evil, but because they KNOW they can do a better job. -Well, it is true. Sun Elves would do a better job. Why don't the elves of Evermeet marry off their princess to King Obauld and then we can all just get along? :thinks: After all humans are willing to get along with anyone. :D -Elves have diginity, and would never sink that low, no matter what circumstances. *Whips up another Elven High Magic Curse for Soul.* -I'll let you be Center, this time. It's not like Obould couldn't be taken care of by any single Elven wizard. Last time I checked, he had no particular resistance to magic of any kind. -Power Word, Kill is a wonderful thing.
souldnce9 05-27-07, 06:14 PM	:pbbbtt: I didn't want your gold anyway! I'll just loot Many Arrow Keep when I'm there.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 06:56 PM	-I'll let you be Center, this time. Hm. If you prove yourself my intellectual and psychological equal, I wouldn't mind sharing control of our Circle with you from time to time. *Cordial Sun Elf!* -Power Word, Kill is a wonderful thing. That has a HP limit. I'd rather go with something along the lines of a Twinned Heightened Dominate Person.
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 07:25 PM	Ohhhh Goody! Another High magic Ritual! :clap: But don't the centers always die? Not much of an honor, if you ask me... All would-be world conquerors think they can do a better job, even super villains like Magneto and Dr. Doom. They don't consider themselves evil either. Then again, Latveria does have a 0% Crime Rate, so Doom might actually be right. :devil:
Poison_Dusk 05-27-07, 08:51 PM	Cast you pathetic magic! If he was that easy to take out, someone would have done it by now. If you have seen my other thread on the topic you would see that his stats as printed are flawed, and in no way reflect the true glory of King Obould. Please, the list him in a breastplate. Neither the pictures I have seen nor the description of his armor in the books sound much like a breastplate. More like fullplate.
ShadezofDis 05-27-07, 08:58 PM	Then again, Latveria does have a 0% Crime Rate, so Doom might actually be right. :devil: Doom is always right (except for when Reed Richards is involved, he's the good Dr.'s kryptonite as far as I'm concerned) Anyhow, I'm amused by how noble some folks are trying to make orc's out to be. They're filthy, murderous swine. Plain and simple. Even if a leader arose who tried to pull the orcs out of their mess he'd be opposed by the orc priests and then by Gruumsh. Point in fact, the orcs should rebel against Gruumsh if they ever want a better lot in life, that's one awful diety to be under. Mountain Orcs (the ones in the MM) were always a part of Faerun... much as dragons and sarrukh are/were. Not quite, they are far "older" than the Grey but sages theorize that they are interlopers. Either they're interlopers, they're some kind of mutation from a "creator race" or they were created by the "creator races". Any way you slice it though, they weren't part of the very begining (as far as canon goes)
ShadezofDis 05-27-07, 09:00 PM	Cast you pathetic magic! If he was that easy to take out, someone would have done it by now. If you have seen my other thread on the topic you would see that his stats as printed are flawed, and in no way reflect the true glory of King Obould. Please, the list him in a breastplate. Neither the pictures I have seen nor the description of his armor in the books sound much like a breastplate. More like fullplate. Sorry Poison, the reason no one has killed him is because he isn't worth hunting down. It's VERY difficult to hunt down particular orcs when they're in the Spine and even should he be killed some other orc will take his place. The ONLY thing special about him is he's a bit smarter than your average orc and he's got some magical enhancements. That's it, and there's nothing to say that the enhancements protect him from magic at all. The "true glory" of Obould is that he isn't a complete animal, which is a lot for an orc.
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 09:12 PM	They were a product of the race that spawned the creator races - the Deepspawn! I guess that makes them the Pro-creeator. ;)
Poison_Dusk 05-27-07, 09:23 PM	I think a lot of people would disagree with you there, Shade. Namely Drizzt, Wulfgar, the rest of that group, a few thousand dwarves, A certain Giantess, some elves, and the lady Alustriel, a chosen of Mystra. They all think he is "worth hunting down" as he is not in the spine at the end of the last book, but in his kingdom of ihs own making. They want him dead, but do not have the forces needed. And to further the point that his stats are horribley off how he is portrayed I give you this; Gerti Orelsdotter and Drizzt Do'Urden are both listed as CR 18, King Obould a measly CR 9, yet he easily beats them both in single combat. I will not say orcs are not savage, bloodthirsty and evil. I just say that does not make them any less deserving of thier own lands than the elves or dwarves. Though I do agree they need to give up on Gruumsh. Obould would make a better leader, nay a better GOD, than that chaotic fool.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 09:24 PM	They all think he is "worth hunting down" According to a single novelist's opinion. ALL novels should be taken with a grain of salt. None of them are completely truthful.
Poison_Dusk 05-27-07, 09:30 PM	Bah... more elven dribble.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 09:31 PM	How the heck is it Elven dribble when I said ALL novels should be taken with a grain of salt? This is INCLUDING Elven novels like Evermeet. We've been warned by several authors several times to note that novels do not depict the whole truth, but rather the truth as perceived by certain -characters- in the novels.
ShadezofDis 05-27-07, 09:32 PM	I think a lot of people would disagree with you there, Shade. Namely Drizzt, Wulfgar, the rest of that group, a few thousand dwarves, A certain Giantess, some elves, and the lady Alustriel, a chosen of Mystra. They all think he is "worth hunting down" as he is not in the spine at the end of the last book, but in his kingdom of ihs own making. They want him dead, but do not have the forces needed. And to further the point that his stats are horribley off how he is portrayed I give you this; Gerti Orelsdotter and Drizzt Do'Urden are both listed as CR 18, King Obould a measly CR 9, yet he easily beats them both in single combat. I will not say orcs are not savage, bloodthirsty and evil. I just say that does not make them any less deserving of thier own lands than the elves or dwarves. Though I do agree they need to give up on Gruumsh. Obould would make a better leader, nay a better GOD, than that chaotic fool. My personal take is that any "favor of Gruumsh" he recieved was taken away when he failed. Gruumsh wouldn't forgive failure, ever. The only explination that would be satisfactory for him retaining his "powers" would be; -it's RA and you just get to go "Ok, I guess that's canon then" -it was a different God who blessed Obould and Gruumsh just hasn't noticed because he's just plain stupid. And if Alustriel REALLY wanted to hunt down Obould she'd do just that. She's much more concerned with solidifying the Silver Marches, which is FAR more important than Obould (in her eyes, and pretty much in reality).
ShadezofDis 05-27-07, 09:35 PM	How the heck is it Elven dribble when I said ALL novels should be taken with a grain of salt? This is INCLUDING Elven novels like Evermeet. We've been warned by several authors several times to note that novels do not depict the whole truth, but rather the truth as perceived by certain -characters- in the novels. Calm down Dan, calm down. Think of Lathander and Corellon. :)
GothicDan 05-27-07, 09:43 PM	I actually wasn't angry or anything. :) Lathander and Corellon, mmmm.
The Ubbergeek 05-27-07, 09:44 PM	The hobgoblins have a better case, then - they are stronger AND Lawfull Evil - they have at least more organisation and strategy and all. :P ;)
ShadezofDis 05-27-07, 09:46 PM	The hobgoblins have a better case, then - they are stronger AND Lawfull Evil - they have at least more organisation and strategy and all. :P ;) I agree. Unfortunately they aren't any more inclined to work with others, they're more inclined to put you in chains. :) That's why the Zhents work well with goblinoid tribes, goblinoids are generally LE, much better to work with than CE. (not that the Zhents mind working with CE, it's just nicer when it's LE)
ShadezofDis 05-27-07, 09:47 PM	I actually wasn't angry or anything. :) I was thinking more exasperated. :)
GothicDan 05-27-07, 10:05 PM	When am I NOT exasperated? ;)
Zevox 05-27-07, 10:18 PM	How the heck is it Elven dribble when I said ALL novels should be taken with a grain of salt? This is INCLUDING Elven novels like Evermeet. We've been warned by several authors several times to note that novels do not depict the whole truth, but rather the truth as perceived by certain -characters- in the novels. Because it contradicts him and makes sense - he has to discredit it some way, so he pretends it doesn't make sense, and hopes no one sees through the charade. Haven't you noticed thats his whole method for winning arguments yet? Zevox
Lord_Steve 05-27-07, 10:36 PM	I think a lot of people would disagree with you there, Shade. Namely Drizzt, Wulfgar, the rest of that group, a few thousand dwarves, A certain Giantess, some elves, and the lady Alustriel, a chosen of Mystra. They all think he is "worth hunting down" as he is not in the spine at the end of the last book, but in his kingdom of ihs own making. They want him dead, but do not have the forces needed. And to further the point that his stats are horribley off how he is portrayed I give you this; Gerti Orelsdotter and Drizzt Do'Urden are both listed as CR 18, King Obould a measly CR 9, yet he easily beats them both in single combat. I will not say orcs are not savage, bloodthirsty and evil. I just say that does not make them any less deserving of thier own lands than the elves or dwarves. Though I do agree they need to give up on Gruumsh. Obould would make a better leader, nay a better GOD, than that chaotic fool. I agree with you there!!!! Accept for that last part about Obould taking Gruumsh's place....Not likely, Not even worthy.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 10:41 PM	Because it contradicts him and makes sense - he has to discredit it some way, so he pretends it doesn't make sense, and hopes no one sees through the charade. Haven't you noticed thats his whole method for winning arguments yet? Zevox I was trying hard to disbelieve the illusion...
souldnce9 05-28-07, 02:18 AM	In the campaign that I am in now, Obauld has crushed Silverymoon and is currently working on Mithral Hall. What is funny is that we started this campaign before the publication of those books. However, the dm recently read them and now I sense a hint of flavor from them. Though I have been defending Obauld, my party is pretty set on killing him. Honestly I don't really care what happens as long as I get something out of it. The dwarves seem to pay better so as it stands. Go King Bruenor Battlehammer! :bow: Sorry Poison, but Obauld is losing the war, and you are losing the argument. Time to switch sides.
Poison_Dusk 05-28-07, 02:45 AM	Because it contradicts him and makes sense - he has to discredit it some way, so he pretends it doesn't make sense, and hopes no one sees through the charade. Haven't you noticed thats his whole method for winning arguments yet? Zevox First of all, there is no need to get personal. We are all having a bit of fun here and playing up the argument. Personally I don't care any more for orcs than any others. The elven dribble comment was a joke. Nothing more. I was merely arguing from the point of view of the Orcs. As for my method of winning arguments, you seem to know a lot about how I do this, when this is the fist one I have taken part in. Now, back to topic. I understand that all novels must be taken with a grain of salt, but I still think Obould is being cheated, stat-wise. I also realize that the orcs will never be successful in maintaining what little they have won, let alone getting more. All you warmblooded folk are the same. You come and go. But I still maintain that the orcs have done nothing worse than what many other races have done.
ShadezofDis 05-28-07, 10:11 AM	I also realize that the orcs will never be successful in maintaining what little they have won, let alone getting more. All you warmblooded folk are the same. You come and go. But I still maintain that the orcs have done nothing worse than what many other races have done. Nothing worse maybe but they haven't ever done anything of real worth. And, if the orcs did start to produce goods and then trade the goods with other local peoples then they'd stand a much better chance of keeping what they took. I actually ran a Half-orc for years who was studying "the human way of life" so that he could bring the knowledge back to the orcs (ie. agriculture, hygene, engineering, etc) and that was a TON of fun (except for trying to figure out what to do with all the damned books I'd copied). Basically, the orcs have land they could cultivate and survive MUCH better on. They could produce tradeable goods from what they have cultivated and establish relations with local kingdoms. Instead, they send out hordes and kill and pillage. When am I NOT exasperated? Fair enough. :) Well . . . maybe when you're thinking about physics?
XHereticX 05-28-07, 10:28 AM	I think a lot of people would disagree with you there, Shade. Namely Drizzt, Wulfgar, the rest of that group, a few thousand dwarves, A certain Giantess, some elves, and the lady Alustriel, a chosen of Mystra. They all think he is "worth hunting down" as he is not in the spine at the end of the last book, but in his kingdom of ihs own making. They want him dead, but do not have the forces needed. And to further the point that his stats are horribley off how he is portrayed I give you this; Gerti Orelsdotter and Drizzt Do'Urden are both listed as CR 18, King Obould a measly CR 9, yet he easily beats them both in single combat. I will not say orcs are not savage, bloodthirsty and evil. I just say that does not make them any less deserving of thier own lands than the elves or dwarves. Though I do agree they need to give up on Gruumsh. Obould would make a better leader, nay a better GOD, than that chaotic fool. Maybe Obould is going to ascend. Judging by the fact that he can take down characters twice his CR easily and his near godlike luck and charisma, he shows great signs for the future.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:10 PM	That has a HP limit. I'd rather go with something along the lines of a Twinned Heightened Dominate Person. -Does it? I don't know...I don't actually play D&D anymore, now...:( Then again, Latveria does have a 0% Crime Rate, so Doom might actually be right. :devil: -Must be all of those Doom-Bots... -And, don't get me started on Obould's current stats...:nonono:
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:51 PM	-Does it? I don't know...I don't actually play D&D anymore, now... I think it's like 120. In 2E, it was 60 (things had a lot less hit points in general).
alamut 05-28-07, 09:33 PM	You guys are missing an important fact about the Orc. They breed like bunnies. That's why a few hundred camped out under the Spine O' the World can become an immense army in less than a dozen years. They don't live long, but who cares is 45 is considered venerable when you baby is ready to swing an axe by the time he's eight. Which gets me around to asking... How old is Obauld? If the Elves (or anybody else for that matter) were really concerned about him, why not try to "contain" him for a while. He'll probably be dead of natural causes (a sad death for an Orc king) in a decade or less. Then who ever takes his place will be just as stupid, disorganized, and generally orcish as the rest of his kith & kin.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:54 PM	That's why a few hundred camped out under the Spine O' the World can become an immense army in less than a dozen years. Mere fodder for a great Elven High Magic ritual cast from Evermeet to turn them all into bunnies. Legion Baleful Polymorph. Or: "The Glorious Transformation of Orc to Toad."
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:09 PM	-Why bother using a High Magic ritual on such swine? Chain Lightning works well enough.
souldnce9 05-28-07, 10:45 PM	Because Chain Lightning is boring! Especially when you can increase the bunny population of the North! Bunnies are cute! I think Alamut makes a wonderful point.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:48 PM	And Chain Lightning doesn't have a long enough range, and doesn't affect as many Orcs at once.
Zevox 05-28-07, 11:22 PM	Besides, why would want thousands of barbecued Orcs when you can have thousands of bunny rabbits? The swine probably taste pretty horrible, but the rabbits can at least make good pets for children... or food for wolves, whoever catches them first. ;) Zevox
souldnce9 05-28-07, 11:35 PM	I personally think rabbits taste fairly good. Besides its nice not having that Elven high magic directed at me. Go GothicDan! :bow:
GothicDan 05-28-07, 11:38 PM	TYVM. I'll be accepting praise from approximately 6 pm to 4 am every day, same place.
souldnce9 05-28-07, 11:49 PM	Hey a woman has got to do what a woman has got to do. I'm a survivalist! :gift:
MerrikCale 05-28-07, 11:51 PM	TYVM. I'll be accepting praise from approximately 6 pm to 4 am every day, same place. you are the cat's meow. Time 11:51PM eastern
GothicDan 05-29-07, 12:01 AM	*Bows.* I like cats. Lions, snow leopards, tigers, and cheetahs are my favorites. And pumas! Well, any kind of big cat, I guess. The little ones bore me. Also, wolves.
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 01:48 AM	first of all the orcs were brought to FR as a slave race i believe. Second of all even Oboulds plan for a kingdom is just so he has a surface place to raid from and eventually take more he stated that plain enough in the hunters blade trilogies. Lastly the only reason orcs will never be com[pletely defeated is because you never hear about their children. there must be a place somewhere where they breed and have nannies watch over the young or something. or they all start off full grown. Can you imagine the Moral question of a Paladin coming across a Cave of den mother orcs and thousands of baby orcs and slaughtering the baby orcs? is it an evil act or justified cause they are all evil?
souldnce9 05-29-07, 02:04 AM	:eek: :weep: By all the Gods!!! I know I said I was changing sides and I am by far no saint, but how could you even ask that? They aren't born evil! They are reared evil. Any Paladin would know this! Read the Book of Exalted Deeds (Two of my other characters are grounded in this book) it will explain anything you need to know about such an atrocity. They are children! I don't care how ugly they are. :weep:
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:09 AM	.... Good thing I'm a Lawful NEUTRAL Sun Elf. Someone's gotta' do the dirty work for the good of The People. *Pulls up robe sleeves, grim look.* ... Or we could turn them into Elves and let Corellon decide their fate. Hm...
souldnce9 05-29-07, 02:19 AM	Bunnies! :D
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:57 AM	I wouldn't mind changing the children into bunnies... It's not evil! They're all cute and fuzzy! (Ignore the wolf packs!) I can retain my LN (Good tendencies) alignment and still eliminate all Orcs! Hot darn, it's my birthday!
souldnce9 05-29-07, 03:25 AM	Hey the occasional bunny gettin eatin by a wolf can't be near as bad as being raised by orcs. Although I heard of a priestess of Eilistraee that is starting an orphanage in the Dalelands. Supposedly it is for children who lost their parents in drow raids, but I have a feeling she would probably take in orcs. Nah!!!! Nevermind Bunnies are a way better idea. :D
GothicDan 05-29-07, 03:29 AM	Agreed.
souldnce9 05-29-07, 03:33 AM	:plotting: Hehe we could sell them to children, then they won't get eaten by wolves. :$$:
Stigger 05-29-07, 04:27 AM	Why not sell them to Sembian and Calishite chefs and snicker, after having stuck an enchantment on them to turn the flesh back to orc as soon as it enters a human mouth, and cackle all the way to the vault with the money the brought in?
souldnce9 05-29-07, 04:51 AM	You're evil :( . I just wanted money not to have baby orcs eaten.
Stigger 05-29-07, 05:35 AM	your point being? :evillaugh
creyzi4zb12 05-29-07, 08:54 AM	This kinda reminds me of that orc orc orc orc orc thread I made. BTW: For those of u who think that Obould being not resistant to magic take note that he has been hit by a huge fireball once and didn't take any scratch from it.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 10:09 AM	This kinda reminds me of that orc orc orc orc orc thread I made. BTW: For those of u who think that Obould being not resistant to magic take note that he has been hit by a huge fireball once and didn't take any scratch from it. Which could easily be explained by a lot of hit points and making the save. Alternatively he could have some energy resists going on. My take on the passage was that it amounted to being slapped for him, sure it hurt but Obould isn't phased by pain. Basically, there's a billion ways to explain why he wouldn't be overtly effected by a fireball and only a couple of those are "He's magic resistant".
Poison_Dusk 05-29-07, 10:11 AM	YOu have given me an idea! I say we DO turn them all to bunnies, but then we take them all into Thay. We say it is for a big festival where we will all eat rabbit stew. Then you place them somewhere stratigic and dissmiss the polymorph. Cue instant horde of orcs. The looks on the red wizards faces when they see that they where infiltraited by a horde of screaming savages!
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 10:20 AM	:eek: :weep: By all the Gods!!! I know I said I was changing sides and I am by far no saint, but how could you even ask that? They aren't born evil! They are reared evil. Any Paladin would know this! Read the Book of Exalted Deeds (Two of my other characters are grounded in this book) it will explain anything you need to know about such an atrocity. They are children! I don't care how ugly they are. :weep: Depends on the DM. An example; Sir Terrance Callahan (second character ever, so yes, it's a dumb name, sue me :p) comes upon a cave full of orcish mothers and orcish children. He casts Detect Evil. Depending on the results of the Detect Evil he will pray to Tyr to make sure he's doing the right thing. Then he'll kill the vermin because his job is to make sure civilization can happen. (note: The end result is assuming the detect evil shows evil and the prayers to Tyr don't offer a sign to say "spare the vermin and try to teach them a better way) Anyhow, I wouldn't say that's an evil act really. It's certainly not nice, it's even cruel but it will also ensure that the humans near the place of the infanticide won't have to deal with those particular orcs destroying their homes. Much like how there were likely good elven high mages involved in the destruction of Jhaamdath.
creyzi4zb12 05-29-07, 11:55 AM	Which could easily be explained by a lot of hit points and making the save. Alternatively he could have some energy resists going on. My take on the passage was that it amounted to being slapped for him, sure it hurt but Obould isn't phased by pain. Basically, there's a billion ways to explain why he wouldn't be overtly effected by a fireball and only a couple of those are "He's magic resistant". Actually lots of spellcasters are afraid of Obould. The orc kings' been killing some of them in the past trilogy. One of them was the drow traitors in Obould's army that was a major spellcaster, one was Shandra Stargleem, and even Gerrti who IS A FROST GIANT CASTER is afraid of him. I wouldn't be surprised if Alustriel is afraid of him. And Obould kicked Drizzt's ass. And there are always the scro. The weapons of those guys killed some spellcasters in Waterdeep in the "Gondrunner" episode. And Vrakk was definitely one of the greates General I've known in FR. Orcs and goblins are definitely one of the best races ever placed in DnD. Their fame has spread up to Warhammer40K, Ariosto's Orlando Furioso, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, MMORPG Final Fantasy XI, The Elder Scrolls series, Lineage II, Hârn, Earthdawn and Shadowrun, Sovereign Stone Series, The Killing Spirit (my favorite book), The Three Towns, Utopia, Arcanum, Orkworld, Magic: The Gathering, Disciples, Siege of Avalon, Fallout, Palladium Fantasy, Flintloque, Ciredaun any many more fads in the world deserving of universal glory. Plus I don't think retaking Mithril Hall was a bad thing done by the orcs. After all, All is fair in love and war. You can never really call the victor of a war evil for the sole purpose of you capitol being taken. Plus Mithril Hall belonged to Obould's ancestors in the first, then the dwarves came and then Obould's ancestors retook it, then the revolt came, then Bruenor's clan came.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 12:18 PM	Actually lots of spellcasters are afraid of Obould. The orc kings' been killing some of them in the past trilogy. One of them was the drow traitors in Obould's army that was a major spellcaster, one was Shandra Stargleem, and even Gerrti who IS A FROST GIANT CASTER is afraid of him. I wouldn't be surprised if Alustriel is afraid of him. And Obould kicked Drizzt's ass. Obould was beating Drizzt due to his enhancements, he wasn't a better swordsman by any measure. (if he was even compairable to Drizzt he would have killed Drizzt, but he still couldn't really hit him) And there are always the scro. The weapons of those guys killed some spellcasters in Waterdeep in the "Gondrunner" episode. This makes no real sense man, sure scro are bad mothers but what does that have to do with Obould? And Vrakk was definitely one of the greates General I've known in FR. Eh, generals don't get much time in FR, it's all about the wizards. That said, can't really say what I think about Vrakk's skills, haven't read the books with him in them in forever and I don't have access to Cloak and Dagger (not sure how much info there is on him in there but that's what kuje's npc file points too) Oh, and kuje's file says he's a half-orc, which could just be a typo from Cloak and Dagger but it may be true, I can't remember. Orcs and goblins are definitely one of the best races ever placed in DnD. Their fame has spread up to Warhammer40K, Ummm. . . they're two different races. And they are cool and all but I wouldn't say "best". But then again, I have no opinions on the "best" race.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 12:19 PM	Plus I don't think retaking Mithril Hall was a bad thing done by the orcs. After all, All is fair in love and war. You can never really call the victor of a war evil for the sole purpose of you capitol being taken. Plus Mithril Hall belonged to Obould's ancestors in the first, then the dwarves came and then Obould's ancestors retook it, then the revolt came, then Bruenor's clan came. Do you have a source for this history? Because as far as I was aware Mithril Hall was built by the dwarves, not by orcs.
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:14 PM	Creyzi... They're novels. That means they are automatically flawed at portraying the truth of the situation. Do NOT take them to be 100% accurate in any way. Unless you see stats in a sourcebook, don't assume that powerful spellcasters have anything to personally fear from mid-level Orcs like Obould, Chosen or not. She's a Chosen of Mystra herself, and Mystra is vastly more powerful than Gruumsh in Realmspace.
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 02:16 PM	Mithral hall didn't belong to the orcs. that was another dwarven strong hold. And Oboulds scarf that was also crafted by his Shamans was what gives him resistances to cold and fire attacks.It was given to him at the same time as his uber armor.
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 02:27 PM	Just so you have a source for the Orcs in FR they were brought in by renegade Mulhorandi wizards thru Imaskari portal magic as it reads in Lost Empires of Faerun page 61, but apparently those were just a tougher variety of orcs that were already here.
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 02:30 PM	Races of faerun States that Orcs were not on FR originally but came thru portals created by the creator races to here. page 64
Zevox 05-29-07, 02:58 PM	And Obould kicked Drizzt's ass. Do we really need to go through this again? Just re-read the darn fight already. They fought evenly initially because Obould's armor was impenetrable - thats not him "kicking Drizzt's ass", its him not being able to be hurt by Drizzt and so being free to attack with abandon. Then when his armor came off we have all of one line describing the fight, which is Drizzt saying he felt like he was fighting Entreri again - thats not Obould "kicking Drizzt's ass" either, its them fighting more or less evenly. Orcs and goblins are definitely one of the best races ever placed in DnD. Excuse me while I laugh. The planes alone contain hundreds of more interesting creatures. In any event, neither Orcs nor Goblins are D&D original creatures. The latter are old mythical creatures, and Orcs are a Tolkien creation (initially Elves, corrupted an twisted by the greatest evil God of his world). Their fame has spread up to ... The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Those are Moblins, not Orcs or Goblins. Different world, difference creatures, just similar name. Don't recognize most of the others, and those I do I've never played, so I'll not say on them. Plus Mithril Hall belonged to Obould's ancestors in the first It most certainly did not. Mithril Hall has belonged to all of two groups over the ages - the Dwarves (initially and now) and Shimmergloom and his Duergar (between those times). Orcs never held it. They held Citadel Adbar, but were not its original owners either - those were again Dwarves. Zevox
souldnce9 05-29-07, 03:30 PM	I wish I were the one to catch Crey's Mithral Hall comment. I was going to lay into him. Humans occupied Citidel Felbarr (yes Zevox you are wrong too) when the Dwarves deserted it. Orcs took the citidel from the humans, Obauld came along and took it from the orcs occupying the citidel, and then the Dwarves returned under the banner of King Emerus Warcrown. Just cause I'm a rogue doesn't mean I didn't get an education. :P
MarkusTay63 05-29-07, 03:30 PM	Please don't argue with Creyzi... his love for the hairy brutes is almost noble, although his facts are sometimes off. ;) Anyhow, IF they were brought in by a Creator race, then once again my Fäerie myths and FR mesh beautifully. After the Fey moved their realm off of Toril (creating a Demi-plane from their original lands), there was a certain amount of drama surrounding the Queen of Air and Darkness and Titania, splitting the Fäerie into two distict groups - the Seelie and the Unseelie (that part is canon as per Monster Mythology). The Unseelie Court included all of the 'uglier' Fey, like Goblinoids, Orcs, Trolls, etc... (A Fey creature's outward appearance reflects what's in their hearts). So the Orcs (originally being the Unseelie opposite of the Seelie Elves) were cast out of Fäerie by Titania for being followers of her evil sister. Gates then would have been opened by either Titania or the Queen of Air and Darkness (or both) allowing the dark Fey to leave and populate other worlds. Many of these gates are still operational, and are used by Fey to travel to and from Fäerie, and most often take the form of Faerie Rings. That works perfectly, for in a sense they were created by the Fey*, who in turn were one of the original creator races. *Fey, BTW, did not create other species as did the other known Creator Races (by experimentation), but rather through their natural shape-changing magic. The Batrachi used a similar method, but their shapeshifting was more biologically-based, rather then magical. In this way, both the Batrachi and Fey 'evolved' into the races they created, rather then use material from other species (although they weren't above copying abilities from other creatures).
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 04:58 PM	-Creyzi is just so crazy! :)
Stigger 05-29-07, 07:51 PM	I was wondering where Creyzi had gotten off to... think hes a she as well, at least I recall the mentioning of it.
Lord_Steve 05-29-07, 08:05 PM	Killing the baby orcs or even turning them into rabbits is the cruelist thing possible! For one thing the lil bastards can't fight back! Secondly, They are innocent! Not guilty of any crime other than being born an orc! They can be raised to be good yes? It's the enviroment they are raised in that counts, not their race. And humans can be just as much as evil and twisted as orcs and goblins, same thing goes with dwarves, elves, halflings and every single creature with at least some measure of intelligence and capable of making choices.
Stigger 05-29-07, 08:06 PM	Yeah, well, just hit them with a fireball or ten and let Kelemvor sort them out. :evillaugh
Lord_Steve 05-29-07, 08:14 PM	Yeah, well, just hit them with a fireball or ten and let Kelemvor sort them out. :evillaugh Ok, We'll go with that....but let's say it is YOU that is on the recieving side, and it is YOU that hurt and die from the experience, and let kelemvor decide where to put YOU???????
souldnce9 05-29-07, 08:38 PM	What is wrong with turning them into bunnies then selling them to little kids as pets. They have a better chance at survival with little kids then growing up as orcs and then dying by the blade of a Dwarven Axe. Bunnies have a much better existence than orcs. As was mentioned before: Orcs get the short end of the stick. Well bunnies don't. Besides what is wrong with making a little gold, while trying to be a humanitarian at the same time? :$$:
creyzi4zb12 05-29-07, 09:30 PM	Orcs are a must in any fantasy setting. You don't see beholders or tarrasques in Tolkien's novels, or in Warcraft 3 or Warhammer or any other of the orc thingys I mentioned. Of course they would never outmatch the elves, dwarves dragons and humans when it comes to popularity and such. But orcs are definitely one of the best races ever created thru fiction, weird creatures in the realms do not really go up high in the advertisement business. So the humans dwelt in Mithril Hall after the dwarves abandoned it. Then the orcs got there. But the dwarves did abandon it, in other words they no longer have any right to just claim it for their own. If they want rights then they should make the right thru battle. Okay Obould didn't beat Drizzt coz he had uber armor and weapons. But so did Drizzt, he had those bracers on his feet making him move fast and Khazidea that disables the armor of Obould, plus he used a crossbow. Don't think that the fight was one sided on Obould. It was a tie on their second match, that's a sure.
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 11:45 PM	Yeah, well, just hit them with a fireball or ten and let Kelemvor sort them out. :evillaugh -I don't believe that Kelemvor would be sorting them out. Either Yurtrus or Gruumsh would be doing that. So the humans dwelt in Mithril Hall after the dwarves abandoned it. Then the orcs got there. But the dwarves did abandon it, in other words they no longer have any right to just claim it for their own. If they want rights then they should make the right thru battle. -If you don't mind me asking, cite your sources. As far as I can recall, Mithral Hall was "abandoned" by the Dwarves of Clan Battlehammer after Shimmergloom, a powerful Shadow Dragon (Or was it Deep Dragon?) and his enslaved Duergar Clan chased them out. Then, it was inhabited by that latter group, until the former group chased them out.
Stigger 05-30-07, 03:29 AM	Eh, whatever... whoever does the sorting doesn't make a whit of difference to me. And if it was me on the receiving end of those fireballs, fair play to the person who crisped me. Wouldn't really bother me actually, especially if there was a deity sorting me out and sending me off to wherever I was supposed to go... just another turn on the cosmic merry-go-round of existance. As to bunnies not getting the short end of the stick as opposed to orcs... you do realize that bunnies are pretty much the prey food of choice, right? They're food... for a whole lot more than orcs ever were. Cute perhaps, cuddly even, but still ultimately prey. LK, do keep in mind this is Creyzi we're talking about... ;)
souldnce9 05-30-07, 03:38 AM	Maybe Craz is getting that information second hand. Because the history of those places are quite clear on page 171-17something in the FRCS. MITHRAL HALL was never infested with filthy Orcs, nor was its halls graced by us Humans (unless you count King Bruenor's adopted children;) ).
Stigger 05-30-07, 03:43 AM	Suspect she might be referring to Settlestone... possibly... hard to tell sometimes.
Slayergnome 05-30-07, 03:48 AM	Because orcs; Do not have a unified enough "kingdom" in order to prevent orcish raids, thus they are in no positition to offer a treaty. Orcs do not wait to listen to envoys, they kill the envoy and more than likely eat them. All orcs send is either a raiding party or a horde, never is it a trade group or a diplomat or whatever. In short, it's because the orcs want nothing to do with an alliance. Obould Many arrows did want a alliance.
souldnce9 05-30-07, 03:49 AM	Nope the description fits Citadel Felbarr like the final piece in a jigsaw puzzle.
souldnce9 05-30-07, 03:52 AM	Obould Many arrows did want a alliance. Obauld is the exception, but how long do you think the rest of the orcs would of put up with said alliance?
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 08:24 AM	The argument about orcs getting their own land, and why they have to live in mountains and stuff--that's pretty humorous. If you thought about it for like thee and a half seconds, you'd figure it out. Because we need evil humanoids for PCs to kill. Really, the lore is to fill the game. That's what makes the money. And so they write lore that makes no sense so that you can send your PCs off to the nearest mountain region, to fight a small band of orcs, when in reality, if orcs really were the race they are (without an INT or WIS penalty), they'd be smart enough to get together and farm some carrots to sell. I mean, half the Realms make no sense. They're created the way they were to further the game of D&D so rabid fanboys buy the material and play the game. I'm guilty as charged, although I do wish they made more of an effort to craft a believable world. (Why exactly is Waterdeep so rich? Oh, it makes money on trade. I see. What exactly does it trade? It's in the fricken northwest corner of the world. The opposite of strategic. Why would anybody trade anything through it besides whalebone carvers from Icewind Dale and some random stuff from the Silver Marches? Why isn't Cormyr the trade capital of Faerun, seeing as how it's got an extremely strategic chokepoint between all of the North and the rest of the continent?)
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 09:47 AM	Eh, whatever... whoever does the sorting doesn't make a whit of difference to me. -I agree. They're only Orcs, after all. LK, do keep in mind this is Creyzi we're talking about... ;) -Good point.
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 10:14 AM	Obould Many arrows did want a alliance. Funny way to propose your alliance. . . rock bombardments from Giants is diplomatically viable when dealing with other orc clans (or did you think they got together to have tea and decided "hey, let's follow this Obould guy!") but when dealing with other races (baring the "evil races") you should generally start with a messenger. Maybe that's just me though, I'm funny like that. The argument about orcs getting their own land, and why they have to live in mountains and stuff--that's pretty humorous. If you thought about it for like thee and a half seconds, you'd figure it out. Yeah, it is really easy. Orc's have NO UNITY besides the strongest rules and that isn't sustainable, ever. From family units to clans to "orcish nations" it's the same, the bigger orcs boss around the smaller orcs and the smaller orcs are almost always looking for a way to knock the "boss" down. Sometimes an orc comes along who's so much more powerful than the other orcs that he can unite a large number of them (with the help of the shamans, because a bit orc with a sword can do only so much) And again, no matter what other races have done to orcs it's still the orcs who have caused orcish kind the most damage. Really, the lore is to fill the game. That's what makes the money. And so they write lore that makes no sense so that you can send your PCs off to the nearest mountain region, to fight a small band of orcs, when in reality, if orcs really were the race they are (without an INT or WIS penalty), they'd be smart enough to get together and farm some carrots to sell. Yeah, because orcs really like eating vegetables and farming and treating others as equal. I mean damn, does Gruumsh talk about anything as much as he talks about a nice vegi-kabab? He just goes on and on and on about how he needs carrots to make sure his one good eye stays good. (Why exactly is Waterdeep so rich? Oh, it makes money on trade. I see. What exactly does it trade? It's in the fricken northwest corner of the world. The opposite of strategic. Why would anybody trade anything through it besides whalebone carvers from Icewind Dale and some random stuff from the Silver Marches? Why isn't Cormyr the trade capital of Faerun, seeing as how it's got an extremely strategic chokepoint between all of the North and the rest of the continent?) Because trade by sea is easier and faster than overland trade. Thus goods from ALL OVER the North flow through Waterdeep for points to the south and the points to the south demand a lot of goods. Waterdeep is also the embarking point for many of the goods coming up from the south, they go to Waterdeep (mostly) and then overland to the Silvermarches or where ever else. Cormyr does have tons of trade going on but it's got some VERY big rivals in Sembia and Westgate. Overland trade to and from Cormyr is a lot more dangerous than taking a boat over the Sea of Fallen Stars and it's just as easy to go to Sembia or Westgate as it is to go to Cormyr. I mean, half the Realms make no sense. Examples? Further, a lot of the real world doesn't make sense, there are more factors than logic when looking at the works of man. In fact, I'd say logic ranks real low on the list.
Faraer 05-30-07, 10:26 AM	Because we need evil humanoids for PCs to kill . . . Really, the lore is to fill the game. That's what makes the money. . . They're created the way they were to further the game of D&D so rabid fanboys buy the material and play the game.Not true, since the Realms was created years before D&D or PCs, and the setting is now explored as much through novels as through the game -- the novels being the more profitable.I'm guilty as charged, although I do wish they made more of an effort to craft a believable world.You can be sure that Ed has considered the factors you mention at far greater length than you or anyone else.
MarkusTay63 05-30-07, 10:26 AM	We've been over this before - Obould lived his entire life as a GOOD neighbor to the people of the North. His great, great, grandaddy took the hall from humans, who had moved into it after the Dwarves abandoned it, but after that his decendents leaved in peace with everyone else. There is absolutely no instance of the Orcs of Citadel many Arrows attacking or 'messing with' humans or demi-humans at any time, and on at least one occasion even prevented an Orc Horde from overunning human settlements in the North. While the peaceful, forward-thinking Obould was out battling the cruel vicious mountain Orcs (and thereby saving human realms), the sneaky, little, underhanded Dwarves snuck into HIS Citadel and took it over. If you want to blame anyone for the current problems with Obould, blame the Dwarves of Citadel Felbarr. Had the Dwarves shown up and HELPED Obould against the Orc Horde, instead of locking him out of HIS Citadel (a weak and cowardly act, by almost anyone's standards), the history of the North over the last couple of years would be VERY different. No-one ever bothers to try and get along with Orcs, and then you wonder why they have an attitude problem? Read Unapproachable East. The Orcs over there were originally sent by Zhentil Keep to establish a foothold in that region, but the Orcs have been treated so well that they no longer hold any allegiance to the Zhents, and are now used by the local cities to patrol the roads against bandits. After having saved an entire human town from bandits recently, they are even hailed as heroes (once again actually, because they were heroes ot the Crusade as well). The humans treat them with respect, and the Orcs are behaving themselves VERY well. There are several instances of this same thing thougout other parts of Faerûn, but not in the North. In EVERY case where Orcs have been treated FAIRLY by humans, the Orcs have responded in kind. You reap what you sow. Read the line in Prince of Lies where Vraak answers the age-old question of why Orcs are orcs. "They treat us like monsters... then we BE monsters" Unlike the Dark Elf argument, this one is backed-up by 100% canon sources. Also, the thought of kiling Orc children is SO disgusting that I can't even believe it would be considered, even in jest. An intelligent creature will respond to the stimulus of its nurturing - if you want to do the 'paladin thing', then you take all of the Orc children and raise them to be civilized citizens and teach them the ways of Helm, or Heironious, or whatever God your selling. If you want a different perspective on Orcs, and what happens when one is raised by humans, then read lord of the Clans. Its not an FR book, or even D&D, but it is a very fresh take on good and evil.
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 10:54 AM	We've been over this before - Obould lived his entire life as a GOOD neighbor to the people of the North. Well I must have missed it, please back up this statement with a source, there's no implication of this in what I've looked at in the FRCS or Silver Marches books. His great, great, grandaddy took the hall from humans, who had moved into it after the Dwarves abandoned it, but after that his decendents leaved in peace with everyone else. There is absolutely no instance of the Orcs of Citadel many Arrows attacking or 'messing with' humans or demi-humans at any time, and on at least one occasion even prevented an Orc Horde from overunning human settlements in the North. Ummm. . . again, it'd be great if you gave a source, from what I've read the orc horde was going to pass on by but then decided they should gather up the orcs in the Citadel and the orcs in the Citadel disagreed. And, as history has shown, most orc disagreements are hella bloody. While the peaceful, forward-thinking Obould was out battling the cruel vicious mountain Orcs (and thereby saving human realms), the sneaky, little, underhanded Dwarves snuck into HIS Citadel and took it over. If you want to blame anyone for the current problems with Obould, blame the Dwarves of Citadel Felbarr. Bwahahahahahahahahaha, haha, hehe, hoho. Peaceful? Sure, patricide is amazingly peaceful. Yep, sure is. Further, the orc horde laid siege to the Citadel, there is no indication (in what I've read) Obould would have gone out of his way to do anything about the orc horde. Had the Dwarves shown up and HELPED Obould against the Orc Horde, instead of locking him out of HIS Citadel (a weak and cowardly act, by almost anyone's standards), the history of the North over the last couple of years would be VERY different. No-one ever bothers to try and get along with Orcs, and then you wonder why they have an attitude problem? Tough to get along with people who kill you if you approach their land and only come to your land to kill you and steal your stuff. Just sayin. Read Unapproachable East. The Orcs over there were originally sent by Zhentil Keep to establish a foothold in that region, but the Orcs have been treated so well that they no longer hold any allegiance to the Zhents, and are now used by the local cities to patrol the roads against bandits. After having saved an entire human town from bandits recently, they are even hailed as heroes (once again actually, because they were heroes ot the Crusade as well). The humans treat them with respect, and the Orcs are behaving themselves VERY well. There are several instances of this same thing thougout other parts of Faerûn, but not in the North. And by almost everything I've ever seen they are some of the biggest exceptions to orcish society in the Realms. They're Drizzt, just a whole company of Drizzts. In EVERY case where Orcs have been treated FAIRLY by humans, the Orcs have responded in kind. You reap what you sow. Read the line in Prince of Lies where Vraak answers the age-old question of why Orcs are orcs. "They treat us like monsters... then we BE monsters" Because General Vraak speaks for all orcs everywhere. In fact he's the most noted orc scholar in the Realms. Unlike the Dark Elf argument, this one is backed-up by 100% canon sources. So orcs don't worship a god who tells them to kill everyone else? And orcs don't enslave goblins, orcs of other tribes, humans, kobolds or anyone else they can get their hands on? Huh, I must have been looking at a different world. . . Also, the thought of kiling Orc children is SO disgusting that I can't even believe it would be considered, even in jest. An intelligent creature will respond to the stimulus of its nurturing - if you want to do the 'paladin thing', then you take all of the Orc children and raise them to be civilized citizens and teach them the ways of Helm, or Heironious, or whatever God your selling. If you want a different perspective on Orcs, and what happens when one is raised by humans, then read lord of the Clans. Its not an FR book, or even D&D, but it is a very fresh take on good and evil. Oh, I certainly agree that it isn't a very "good" act. However, while there may be rare occurrences of orcs who aren't evil to their core the majority still are evil and nature vs nurture goes more on the side of nature in the Realms (for the most part). Elves are generally good, goblins are generally evil. Even different groups, who's society grew in different regions without interaction, tend towards similar alignments. It could be a gods thing, perhaps if the "evil humanoids" could throw off their gods they would have an easier time being "good" but that's not happened and it's VERY unlikely to happen anytime soon.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 12:12 PM	Yeah, it is really easy. Orc's have NO UNITY besides the strongest rules and that isn't sustainable, ever. From family units to clans to "orcish nations" it's the same, the bigger orcs boss around the smaller orcs and the smaller orcs are almost always looking for a way to knock the "boss" down. Sometimes an orc comes along who's so much more powerful than the other orcs that he can unite a large number of them (with the help of the shamans, because a bit orc with a sword can do only so much) And again, no matter what other races have done to orcs it's still the orcs who have caused orcish kind the most damage.This is a silly RP-fanboy-answer that doesn't make any sense. Sociologically, creatures that have the same intelligence as real-world humans would not act as stupidly as FR orcs act. See below. Yeah, because orcs really like eating vegetables and farming and treating others as equal. I mean damn, does Gruumsh talk about anything as much as he talks about a nice vegi-kabab? He just goes on and on and on about how he needs carrots to make sure his one good eye stays good.Whatever they want to do, live in an equitable society, kill stuff, or simply get enough to eat, a group of orcs of human intelligence would not run around killing each other on mountain slopes. It's inane. It doesn't further any of their goals. It's fiction. So stop trying to pretend it makes sense. It's meant to sell books; just accept it. Because trade by sea is easier and faster than overland trade. Thus goods from ALL OVER the North flow through Waterdeep for points to the south and the points to the south demand a lot of goods. Waterdeep is also the embarking point for many of the goods coming up from the south, they go to Waterdeep (mostly) and then overland to the Silvermarches or where ever else. Cormyr does have tons of trade going on but it's got some VERY big rivals in Sembia and Westgate. Overland trade to and from Cormyr is a lot more dangerous than taking a boat over the Sea of Fallen Stars and it's just as easy to go to Sembia or Westgate as it is to go to Cormyr.This is what happens when people without any background in economics, sociology, anthropology, or pretty much any macro-social science try to defend a fantasy world. Trade by sea is cheaper, yes. That's why Waterdeep would send goods to Calimshan by boat. Before we even talk about that, the whole concept of a market society in FR is silly. With magic the way it is, why would anything be hard? There'd just be armies of Clerics to cast Create Food and Water, a few high level ones to Control Weather (one casting gets you rain for 24 hours, enough water for crops for a week), teleporting around faerun to recast it in different places every day, Wizards Minor/Major Creation'ing anything needed (including "vegetable matter"--food), etc., etc. Trade would be unnecessary for the vast majority of goods--teleport lets you bring along one M creature and its heavy load every 3 CLs. So that's a minimum of 3 mules carrying 300 pounds for every Wizard11. The next level, he could buy an elephant and transport 1600 pounds per casting, twice a day. He'd just get paid to cast this spell, and then roll in dough. I mean, a Wizard 15 has ten teleports available per day, with an elephant and a mule. That's 1900 pounds, plus his own heavy load, round to 2000 pounds, times ten, that's ten tons he can "trade" per day. Granted, Wizard15s are rare, but that's just an idea. Anyway, Waterdeep is not in a strategic position. There's nothing special about it except that it is the closest port for anything north of, say, the Troll Hills. That's barbaric lands, we all know. They don't produce jack. Baldur's Gate, Athkatla, Calimport, all are better. The best port cities would be Sudolphor/Theymarsh (if they can somehow exact a toll for passing through that strait), definitely Innarlith (allows all the goods from the Sword Coast to reach the Inner Sea through a short land trip), Arrabar, and then the various ports that dot the Inner Sea, particularly Westgate for its access to the Western Heartlands. Further, a lot of the real world doesn't make sense, there are more factors than logic when looking at the works of man. In fact, I'd say logic ranks real low on the list.I don't even know what to say to that.
Poison_Dusk 05-30-07, 12:30 PM	I don't think I can bring myself to debate with anyone with Jar-Jar Binks as an avatar.
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 12:34 PM	This is a silly RP-fanboy-answer that doesn't make any sense. Sociologically, creatures that have the same intelligence as real-world humans would not act as stupidly as FR orcs act. See below. Whatever they want to do, live in an equitable society, kill stuff, or simply get enough to eat, a group of orcs of human intelligence would not run around killing each other on mountain slopes. It's inane. It doesn't further any of their goals. It's fiction. So stop trying to pretend it makes sense. It's meant to sell books; just accept it. Goals? Define orcish goals and present evidence that orcs try to engage in activities to accomplish those goals. From what I've seen and read the first step is control over other orcs, that usually involves "running around killing each other on mountain slopes" This is what happens when people without any background in economics, sociology, anthropology, or pretty much any macro-social science try to defend a fantasy world. Trade by sea is cheaper, yes. That's why Waterdeep would send goods to Calimshan by boat. So you're my stalker now? You know what kind of schooling I've had? You know what I read and pay attention to in the news? That's kinda freaky dude. Before we even talk about that, the whole concept of a market society in FR is silly. With magic the way it is, why would anything be hard? There'd just be armies of Clerics to cast Create Food and Water, a few high level ones to Control Weather (one casting gets you rain for 24 hours, enough water for crops for a week), teleporting around faerun to recast it in different places every day, Wizards Minor/Major Creation'ing anything needed (including "vegetable matter"--food), etc., etc. We weren't talking about the concept of a market society. Personally I still haven't wrapped my head around how and why the market isn't dominated by wizards, the best I've been able to come up with so far is that for the most part they don't care to control the trade of FR, they're working on their Art and when they need some cash they go, cast a few spells and then go home with that cash they just made. I don't even know what to say to that. So you are saying that the majority of human history makes absolute logical sense? I'll go a bit further than that in fact. If we were given human history in the same way we are given Realms lore (snippets here and there, not much in the way of detail what so ever) then you would still say it'd make logical sense?
Faraer 05-30-07, 12:46 PM	If one doesn't, with partial information, understand how something works, it's possible that the thing doesn't make sense. But the more sensible, logical conclusion is 'I don't understand'. Many people have tried to argue from the rules as to how a society with D&D magic 'should' work, coming to highly disparate conclusions. It can't be done, as it depends on any number of social, cultural, and indeed magical factors the rules don't address. Orc society is inspired by any number of human societies who have indeed 'run around' (hunter-gatherers) and 'killed each other' (tribal conflicts and feuds). As for logic, it deals with formal systems, not things as complex and unpredictable as human interactions at any scale. Having said that, it is of course broadly true that the Realms, like almost every other secondary world, is built above all for dramatic and storytelling purposes -- albeit long-term ones -- and other factors are often bent to fit.
zerodeviere 05-30-07, 01:13 PM	Not sure how to quote people yet but man there are some people really lacking. First off Ocrs no matter how int. they are are EVIL. saying they don't kill eachother is like saying that the drow don't kill eachother either. they do.. THEY ARE EVIL. like the orcs it is about the position they hold within their society that drives them. in order to climb that latter they have to open a position above them to advance. Secondly there is not just 1 dwarven stronghold in the north... there are quite a few of them. Mithral Hall the current ruler being King Bruenor Battlehammer was NEVER held by orcs. Only Shimmergloom the shadow dragon and his Drueger allies. The one Oboud took was Citadel Felbarr leader is King Eramus Warcrown. When obould had this place he named it The Citadel of Many Arrows. The one that humans and dwarves live in is Mirabar With human and dwarven council as rulers. Citadel Adbar has been run by dwarves for centuries repelling orc attacks. Sundabar is ran by Helm Dwarf-friend and they trade alot and repel orc attacks every couple of years. all this is stated in the FR campign setting book pages about 172 - 176 ish. Also Markus tell me the name of one orc god that is not EVIL..... and that book was called the Prince of Lies. guess you don't pay alot of attention to the titles... Obould want and Obould takes.. where was he showing kindness or even leaving alone others when he attacked Shallows? he killed everyone in his path to Mithral Hall. He didnt ask if they wanted to parley... and do you think Half-orcs are here because orcs and humans fell in love and made babies? or maybe humans raped their orc prisoners? Orcs areEVIL. and one for Shadez... acording to DM's guide ocean travel is not quicker .. they have the fastest ships listed at 4 M.P.H. which is no where near right to me so if you have a list or something that shows the actual ship speeds i would appreciate a heads up. we avoid the water/ship adventures mostly because we don't know that answer. but the internet has them moving closer to 30 something miles an hour which seems closer to the truth. =-)
zerodeviere 05-30-07, 01:15 PM	Also like to add that Orcs are considered Barbarians in the social structure and even good Barbarian tribes will kill you on site if you enter their lands.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 01:39 PM	I don't think I can bring myself to debate with anyone with Jar-Jar Binks as an avatar.It's there for shock value, and to help me quickly figure out who the dumb people who judge books by their covers are.
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 01:46 PM	-I got your back, Shadez. This is a silly RP-fanboy-answer that doesn't make any sense. Sociologically, creatures that have the same intelligence as real-world humans would not act as stupidly as FR orcs act. See below. -Which is why FR Orcs do not act as "intelligently" as Humans, since they are not as smart. Orcs have an innate -2 INT, which means they are not as smart. -Furthermore, your statement "Sociologically, creatures that have the same intelligence as real-world humans would not act as stupidly as FR orcs act" makes no sense. But, this is what happens when people without any background in psychology, sociology, anthropology, or pretty much any macro-social science try to attack a fantasy world. Applying D&D terms to the actual world, all Humans have the same INT (+0) bonus. No penalties, and no bonuses. Intelligence is something dependant on the individual. How is it that some groups of Humans become more advanced as some of their contemporaries? Why is it that when the Chinese were creating gunpowder, the Germanic barbarians were bashing things with clubs? Why is it that when the Brittish Empire was colonizing the world, tribal communities in Africa and the Pacific islands were still living in a primitive fashion? If we have Humans displaying such features, how is it such a longshot for Orcs, creatures with diminshed mental capacities as compared to Humans, doing the same? Whatever they want to do, live in an equitable society, kill stuff, or simply get enough to eat, a group of orcs of human intelligence would not run around killing each other on mountain slopes. -Again, Orcs are not as intelligent as Humans. Furthermore, their society and religion encourages bloodshed, mayhem, and destruction. With magic the way it is, why would anything be hard? -Because magic is not infinite. There is a limit to what any given magician can do, including the likes of Elminster and Khelben. There'd just be armies of Clerics to cast Create Food and Water... -But there aren't armies of random Clerics doing this. ...a few high level ones to Control Weather (one casting gets you rain for 24 hours, enough water for crops for a week)... -Again, see above. ...teleporting around faerun to recast it in different places every day... -This sort of argument is discussed in Gossamer Plain. Though a wizard can teleport, he chooses not to, because you never know when you might need to teleport in the future. Furthermore, to many magicians and cultures (Elves), magic is not a tool to be used when convienient. Trade would be unnecessary for the vast majority of goods--teleport lets you bring along one M creature and its heavy load every 3 CLs. So that's a minimum of 3 mules carrying 300 pounds for every Wizard11. The next level, he could buy an elephant and transport 1600 pounds per casting, twice a day. He'd just get paid to cast this spell, and then roll in dough. I mean, a Wizard 15 has ten teleports available per day, with an elephant and a mule. That's 1900 pounds, plus his own heavy load, round to 2000 pounds, times ten, that's ten tons he can "trade" per day. Granted, Wizard15s are rare, but that's just an idea. -You answered your own problem. Fifteenth level wizards don't grow on trees, and I am sure that the ones who do exist aren't as altruistic as to single-handedly take on and control all trading on the planet. First off Ocrs no matter how int. they are are EVIL. saying they don't kill eachother is like saying that the drow don't kill eachother either. they do.. THEY ARE EVIL. like the orcs it is about the position they hold within their society that drives them. in order to climb that latter they have to open a position above them to advance. -Orcs, as demonstrated by the Orcs in Thesk, are not inherently evil. Society makes them evil. Thus, nurture has more of a hold on them than nature. do you think Half-orcs are here because orcs and humans fell in love and made babies? or maybe humans raped their orc prisoners? Orcs areEVIL. -Either case is possible, though the latter is more likely. ...acording to DM's guide ocean travel is not quicker .. -The DMG is obviously wrong then. That doesn't make much sense. 4 MPH for ocean-going sailing ships?
Poison_Dusk 05-30-07, 01:47 PM	You softskiins have no sense of humor.
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 01:48 PM	and one for Shadez... acording to DM's guide ocean travel is not quicker .. they have the fastest ships listed at 4 M.P.H. which is no where near right to me so if you have a list or something that shows the actual ship speeds i would appreciate a heads up. we avoid the water/ship adventures mostly because we don't know that answer. but the internet has them moving closer to 30 something miles an hour which seems closer to the truth. =-) I found a few things using my google-fu http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/trireme.htm and http://www.geocities.com/dragar.geo/WSP/ships.html Might not be great sources but it's what I've found in 5 mins.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 01:57 PM	Goals? Define orcish goals and present evidence that orcs try to engage in activities to accomplish those goals. From what I've seen and read the first step is control over other orcs, that usually involves "running around killing each other on mountain slopes"This is rather frustrating. Not discussing this with you per se, but discussing this with someone who thinks of the world as a child does. Let me try to make it clear to you: 1. Orcs, like all living creatures, do things that make them happy. This is a fundamental driving force of life. You do what you want to do, and you want to do it because you think you prefer the consequences to the alternatives. 2. Whatever it is that makes them happy, running around killing each other on mountain slopes is definitely not the best way to go about it, and if they had human intelligence like they're supposed to, they'd realize it. 2a. Unless running around killing each other is precisely what makes them happy, you say. Which is extremely unlikely. The more likely situation would be running around exerting dominance over other creatures, or even the thrill of combat, or something correlated with killing each other, but not actually the act itself. 3. If they really wanted to do anything, they would have organized themselves, or formed allies, or did any of a trillion different things that intelligent human societies have come up with over the past five thousand years. Instead, they do idiotic things like band together for one campaign, then revert to barbarism again (conveniently for the next plot line), ally themselves with some evil power, and then forget about it, etc. So you're my stalker now? You know what kind of schooling I've had? You know what I read and pay attention to in the news? That's kinda freaky dude.I don't need to stalk you to tell from your posts that you have no idea how complex economic and anthropological systems like international trade works. Your posts echo things that are force-fed to 14 year olds who like reading about tales of faraway lands. You said: "Cormyr does have tons of trade going on but it's got some VERY big rivals in Sembia and Westgate," which is a pretty funny statement, if you think about it. We weren't talking about the concept of a market society.International trade presupposes the existence of a market society. Still think it's "freaky, dude"? Personally I still haven't wrapped my head around how and why the market isn't dominated by wizards, the best I've been able to come up with so far is that for the most part they don't care to control the trade of FR, they're working on their Art and when they need some cash they go, cast a few spells and then go home with that cash they just made.Red Wizards are supposed to have a heavy hand in that, but only in such a way that mimics Renaissance human history, not what Renaissance human history would have been like if we'd had teleport and create food and water and whatnot. This is because people like reading about certain things, and when you factor in teleport/create food and water, the society changes, and you can no longer write books about those certain things anymore. So you are saying that the majority of human history makes absolute logical sense? I'll go a bit further than that in fact. If we were given human history in the same way we are given Realms lore (snippets here and there, not much in the way of detail what so ever) then you would still say it'd make logical sense?Rather than try to explain to you the definition of "logic," let me just leave you with this short phrase that may help you understand: The more you understand about the world, the more things in the world make sense. Logical sense, that is.
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 01:57 PM	You softskiins have no sense of humor. -What is your avatar? It looks like some kind of skeleton robot, with a brain. 2. Whatever it is that makes them happy, running around killing each other on mountain slopes is definitely not the best way to go about it, and if they had human intelligence like they're supposed to, they'd realize it. -Again, they do not, and are not supposed to display Human intelligence. They are Orcs, and possess and display Orcish intelligence.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 02:22 PM	-Which is why FR Orcs do not act as "intelligently" as Humans, since they are not as smart. Orcs have an innate -2 INT, which means they are not as smart.Talking about WIS in game terms, not INT. Moot point because INT/WIS is a game mechanic back-engineered to fit the lore. -Furthermore, your statement "Sociologically, creatures that have the same intelligence as real-world humans would not act as stupidly as FR orcs act" makes no sense. But, this is what happens when people without any background in psychology, sociology, anthropology, or pretty much any macro-social science try to attack a fantasy world.So here you go out on a limb, to say I don't make sense. Your support comes along in the following: Applying D&D terms to the actual world, all Humans have the same INT (+0) bonus. No penalties, and no bonuses.Do you even play D&D? You're telling me every single human NPC in all of your games had an INT or 10 or 11? Think, man. Intelligence is something dependant on the individual. How is it that some groups of Humans become more advanced as some of their contemporaries? Why is it that when the Chinese were creating gunpowder, the Germanic barbarians were bashing things with clubs? Why is it that when the Brittish Empire was colonizing the world, tribal communities in Africa and the Pacific islands were still living in a primitive fashion? If we have Humans displaying such features, how is it such a longshot for Orcs, creatures with diminshed mental capacities as compared to Humans, doing the same?I don't have the resources or the ability to explain to you these things in detail. Historians still debate them. However, here's an exercise to run through your head: Africa, North America, Micronesia, etc., were all primitive compared to other civilizations because they had never really been in contact with them. They were remote. Like Chult. (Look, pa, it makes sense!) Orcs are not remote. They hang around in all the dozens of mountain ranges that liberally pepper the landscape (for no real seismological reason--again, for storytelling) just waiting for adventurers to go kill them. And yet they never figured out not to be complete morons, even after countless times of getting their asses handed to them. Go figure! View Post With magic the way it is, why would anything be hard?Because magic is not infinite. There is a limit to what any given magician can do, including the likes of Elminster and Khelben.How is that a response to what I said? Magic doesn't need to be INFINITE to effect real, significant change in society. But there aren't armies of random Clerics doing this.And this is where you fail your Economics check. The supply of clerics is not exogenous. People can choose to be clerics. If it there was an incentive (create food and water, yadda yadda), more people would choose to be clerics. And the fact that the majority of people who have the ability to become clerics choose to be mouth-breathers shows that the world is not realistic. You would know this if you had, you know, a background in Economics. Just sayin'. Again, see above.Again, see above. This sort of argument is discussed in Gossamer Plain. Though a wizard can teleport, he chooses not to, because you never know when you might need to teleport in the future. Furthermore, to many magicians and cultures (Elves), magic is not a tool to be used when convienient.That is idiotic. You never know when you might need to in cast that spell in the future? Well hell, I'm not casting my burning hands right now! You never know, I might need it in the next eight hours. I mean seriously, doesn't that reek of making excuses? You answered your own problem. Fifteenth level wizards don't grow on trees, and I am sure that the ones who do exist aren't as altruistic as to single-handedly take on and control all trading on the planet.Oh, jesus, you need to pray to the gods of Economics extra hard tonight. Altruistic? Do you even understand how trade works? It would be unfair to do this to you, so I'll leave you to figure this one out on your own. Orcs, as demonstrated by the Orcs in Thesk, are not inherently evil. Society makes them evil. Thus, nurture has more of a hold on them than nature.Yes, which is the final nail in the coffin. A bunch of orcs sitting in some mountain caves, no matter how many--a hundred, three hundred, five thousand, whatever--will always be evil. Isn't that something. Don't you think that different orcish clans, who never met each other, been living separately for hundreds of years, would develop different social constructs? No. They all act the same way, because they're a victim of society. What society, let me ask you? That piece of information--to humanize orcs in glaring contradiction to all of what the history shows--is almost comical. The real tragedy is that portraying orcs without an inherent bent towards evil ought to be a plausible goal of the campaign setting. Unfortunately, because of all the silliness, it's not. But that's okay, I still have fun whacking them in my weekly games. That's what it's all about anyway. Don't get too caught up in the lore, guys. It's not that sensical.
souldnce9 05-30-07, 02:29 PM	Anca, How Dare you insult the City of Splendors. Not only is it in a good location, it is a comfortable place to live! The North is being over run with Settlers! Are you suggesting they take boat to Baldurs Gate to trade? You are assuming that trade only goes south! Sure, I suppose precious metals, gems, furs, and high quality Dwarven weapons and armor aren't worth sending south, but good foods, wines and southern items are definately wanted North. You best watch your back if you are ever visiting Waterdeep! :pbbbtt: We are very patriotic. Explane to me why Phoenix Arizona is one of the fastest growing cities in the U.S. Have you ever been there? It is hot. It is in the middle of nowhere. Yet there is some kind of strange attraction.
Poison_Dusk 05-30-07, 02:31 PM	-What is your avatar? It looks like some kind of skeleton robot, with a brain. My avatar is the the ugliest person I could find. As this site shows no support to my scaly brethren I just chose one that looked strange. Again, you soft skinned people have no humor.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 02:38 PM	Anca, How Dare you insult the City of Splendors. Not only is it in a good location, it is a comfortable place to live! The North is being over run with Settlers! Are you suggesting they take boat to Baldurs Gate to trade? You are assuming that trade only goes south! Sure, I suppose precious metals, gems, furs, and high quality Dwarven weapons and armor aren't worth sending south, but good foods, wines and southern items are definately wanted North. You best watch your back if you are ever visiting Waterdeep! :pbbbtt: We are very patriotic.I would respond in kind, with a playful, mock-in-character schtick, but I don't have the energy right now. Pretend I did. In any case, the North is a small fraction of the size of the rest of Faerun, and a barbaric small fraction without developed industries, I might add. One city, even if it dominates all of the North, ought not be among the top 5 cities on the entire continent. But of course it's much cooler if it were. So it is. Voila. Explane to me why Phoenix Arizona is one of the fastest growing cities in the U.S. Have you ever been there? It is hot. It is in the middle of nowhere. Yet there is some kind of strange attraction.The United States is not a medieval/Renaissance society. Phoenix is not a city-state founded on merchant trade. Phoenix depends on manufacturing, (especially of electronic parts), tourism, and other modern industries.
Faraer 05-30-07, 02:38 PM	Don't get too caught up in the lore, guys. It's not that sensical.If you don't understand it and other people do, it's not you who should be advising them. If you legitimately want to understand it, Ed is accessible at Candlekeep.com to explain.
creyzi4zb12 05-30-07, 02:38 PM	-I get my source on none other than you guys. Like souldncer and Markus posted. The humans dwelt after the dwarves abandon their caves, then orcs come. Well I was just quoting it back, so I don't think it is quite right. Not sure how to quote people yet but man there are some people really lacking. First off Ocrs no matter how int. they are are EVIL. saying they don't kill eachother is like saying that the drow don't kill eachother either. they do.. THEY ARE EVIL. like the orcs it is about the position they hold within their society that drives them. in order to climb that latter they have to open a position above them to advance. Also Markus tell me the name of one orc god that is not EVIL..... and that book was called the Prince of Lies. guess you don't pay alot of attention to the titles... Obould want and Obould takes.. where was he showing kindness or even leaving alone others when he attacked Shallows? he killed everyone in his path to Mithral Hall. He didnt ask if they wanted to parley... and do you think Half-orcs are here because orcs and humans fell in love and made babies? or maybe humans raped their orc prisoners? Orcs areEVIL. -Of course he knows all orc gods are EVIL. He's MILF. That's like asking a question like, tell me the name of one woman that has a P**S! ... Guess you create quoted posts on your own to give your debating statement some fruity backup. Because as far as I know Markus never posted a word about NON EVIL ORC gods. -If you say that all drows are evil, Drizzt is a drow. Is he EVIL? -Also is Vrakk considered EVIL? -Obould DID want to parlay. That was the time when he used a dwarven hostage to settle a diplomatic agreement with Bruenor on the latter part of the Two Swords. And that was the time where Drizzt came in to stop his diplomatic plot because Drizzt wanted to kill Obould because he didn't trust Obould. Obould tried to avoid a second confrontation against Drizzt, but it was Drizzt's taunt that blew him up. -And you ask for a time where Obould showed kindness. 1.At the pegasus 2.At his hostage. (Well he did let the dwarf live) 3.To Drizzt in the second match he tried to avoid a fight. It sounds very ironic because it was Obould who had been deceived lots of times in the trilogy, namely: 1.Drizzt running off on the first fight and not his word to Obould 2.Gerrti selling him off to die by Drizzt's hands 3.The giants revolting against him 4.His drow spies bearing treachery in his back 5.The drow caster betraying him by placing the spider on his back -Ass for Drizzt. Well, I couldn't note any facts in the trilogy that he was betrayed. -Try to look at it under Obould's shoes instead of Drizzt to get a better view of it.
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 02:42 PM	This is rather frustrating. Not discussing this with you per se, but discussing this with someone who thinks of the world as a child does. Thanks for the insult. Back your statement up if your going to devolve into personal attacks. How, oh great master, do I look at the world like a child? I don't need to stalk you to tell from your posts that you have no idea how complex economic and anthropological systems like international trade works. Your posts echo things that are force-fed to 14 year olds who like reading about tales of faraway lands. You said: "Cormyr does have tons of trade going on but it's got some VERY big rivals in Sembia and Westgate," which is a pretty funny statement, if you think about it. And you have no idea who I am, what I do, how old I am, etc and if you continue to insult me I will have to report you. If we were in the same room I'd probably do something different but that's the internet for you. Anyhow, FR doesn't have a very complex economic system (relative to the real world), the big complexities in FR trade is; Security, balancing the cost of security vs the risks of lesser security. Tariffs, should be clear cut for someone as knowledgeable as yourself. This is, in fact, a very simple economic model. The complexities of the real world have no bearing on FR. International trade presupposes the existence of a market society. Still think it's "freaky, dude"? That's not the freaky part, the freaky part is that you feel like you can judge people based on a couple of paragraphs. Oh, and that you are so superior that you can insult people from word one. Rather than try to explain to you the definition of "logic," let me just leave you with this short phrase that may help you understand: The more you understand about the world, the more things in the world make sense. Logical sense, that is. Yes, reading history, thorough historical accounts that is, makes human progression very logical. That doesn't mean that the decisions made by the people at the time were logical. Though, perhaps, logical isn't the correct word here. People have worked counter to the goals they were seeking to achieve countless times in history.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 02:44 PM	If you don't understand it and other people do, it's not you who should be advising them. If you legitimately want to understand it, Ed is accessible at Candlekeep.com to explain.Nobody is "advising" (??) anybody. I'm simply offering an explanation of why I don't think it's important to dwell on the exact nature of why orcs stay in mountains and whatnot. The reason, like the reason for many other things in the Realms including city properties, is "because it makes a good story and thus, makes WotC money." I certainly don't need to ask Ed why he wants to make a good story and bring home the bacon to Mama Greenwood.
Stigger 05-30-07, 02:53 PM	That went faster than I thought it would... the orc bit was in reference to post 133. And they use orcish psychological perspectives, not human ones... a bit difficult to extrapolate what those are, but if one makes inferences based upon their religions, I'd say they were a far cry from most humans in the realms from a psychological perspective. And considerably more bloodthirsty and primitive. Considering the general dearth of sources on orcish society and culture in FR lore, its a bit hard to make all that many assumptions about them... and the ones we do have are making assumptions that we don't really care about what makes them tick. Do they make sense as presented? Not terribly, but there are just as many reasons why they could make sense as to why they don't make sense, and with something more than superficial effort, it isn't that hard to come up with reasons why the orcs as presented do make sense, particularly when taking the details of their religions into account. Add in that wisdom and intelligence penalty, and it makes even more sense, since they likely have a reduced learning curve (intelligence penalty) and ability to reason cause-and-effect and consequences of their actions (wisdom penalty). As to the whole shipping speed issue, 30 kts is a more modern ship speed... case in point, according to Jane's, Arleigh Burke class DDGs have speeds around 32 kts, and somehow I doubt that most medieval/rennaissance era ships are using the sorts of modern engines those destroyers are... most of their speed would be determined by wind speed and hull efficiency more than anything else. As to Waterdeeps primacy for a trade location, take a look at the map again. Its major advantage is a natural deepwater harbor with good shelter, a location near a major river network that covers most of the interior North, and hence a ready access to resources pulled from elsewhere. That river - sea combination is what makes it powerful economically, like most other cities that benefitted from that combination. Add in peripheral things like good city walls and a stable government and it only improves the odds of a major power being situated there. One day that will probably be true of Luskan, when the upriver areas are more settled and resource extraction becomes feasible on a large scale. Same goes for Baldur's Gate... or most other major cities on Rivers. Seriously, take a look at the great cities of both the Realms and Earth, a rather large majority of them will be on or very near a navigable river...
souldnce9 05-30-07, 02:57 PM	-Yes it seems you are waisting all your energy on debunking the realms, when you are missing a great point. The Realms are bloody fun place to play!!!!! Why are we having an argument on how orcs should act in real life any way? -By all that is Holy, you're right; there are fundamental flaws in fantasy society. Of course the ignorance of Orcs is used to sell books and gaming material. We are arguing based off the fantasy terms of FR, and Orcs are “usually” evil, and usually stupid, and yes most of them don’t learn from their past mistakes. -I agree that they can be raised differently, but they definately need guidence. The orcs would not be able to do it by themselves. - <- Sorry Lord Karsus, stealing, it is what I do. :smirk:
Faraer 05-30-07, 03:02 PM	Nobody is "advising" (??) anybody.'Don't get too caught up in the lore' wasn't advice?I'm simply offering an explanation of why I don't think it's important to dwell on the exact nature of why orcs stay in mountains and whatnot.One one level, taking the 'why' too far is, I agree, missing the point. However, these dynamics are worth considering enough to allow one to DM orcs consistently and generate new plot hooks, a job they're comfortably consistent and understandable enough to fulfil.The reason, like the reason for many other things in the Realms including city properties, is "because it makes a good story and thus, makes WotC money."This stuff was worked out long before TSR bought rights to the Realms. Yes, it's to make a good story, or rather to make many good stories, and to do that it had to be done in a lot more depth than you seem aware of, and a lot less arbitrariness than you claim.I certainly don't need to ask Ed why he wants to make a good story and bring home the bacon to Mama Greenwood.Now you suggest primarily mercenary motive on Ed's part, which is farcical given the amount he sold the Realms for and the time he spends providing lore answers at Candlekeep running in hundreds of thousands of words, for free.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 03:11 PM	-Yes it seems you are waisting all your energy on debunking the realms, when you are missing a great point. The Realms are bloody fun place to play!!!!! Why are we having an argument on how orcs should act in real life any way? -By all that is Holy, you're right; there are fundamental flaws in fantasy society. Of course the ignorance of Orcs is used to sell books and gaming material. We are arguing based off the fantasy terms of FR, and Orcs are “usually” evil, and usually stupid, and yes most of them don’t learn from their past mistakes. -I agree that they can be raised differently, but they definately need guidence. The orcs would not be able to do it by themselves. - <- Sorry Lord Karsus, stealing, it is what I do. :smirk: See: But that's okay, I still have fun whacking them in my weekly games. That's what it's all about anyway. They're created the way they were to further the game of D&D so rabid fanboys buy the material and play the game. I'm guilty as charged, although I do wish they made more of an effort to craft a believable world.
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 03:14 PM	-Talk to you all later. I'm going to a baseball game tonight. I'll boo Barry Bonds for each and every one of you. :) Talking about WIS in game terms, not INT. -Orcs also suffer a –2 to WIS, as well, if I am not mistaken. Moot point because INT/WIS is a game mechanic back-engineered to fit the lore. -You’re not helping your own argument. So, you’re saying that their INT/WIS penalties don’t matter, since they just reflect the lore that says that they are not as mentally capable as Humans. Game mechanic, or lore, again, Orcs are not as intelligent as Humans. They are less intelligent, as a race as a whole. Why should we expect them to exhibit Human intelligence and achieve Human feats, when they are not Humans, and are on average, not as smart? So here you go out on a limb, to say I don't make sense. Your support comes along in the following: Do you even play D&D? You're telling me every single human NPC in all of your games had an INT or 10 or 11? Think, man. -10 and 11 are the average scores. Average, being the majority. Think, man. I don't have the resources or the ability to explain to you these things in detail. Historians still debate them. However, here's an exercise to run through your head: Africa, North America, Micronesia, etc., were all primitive compared to other civilizations because they had never really been in contact with them. They were remote. Like Chult. (Look, pa, it makes sense!) -Numerous North African tribes had plenty of contact with Europe, as well as the Middle East. Numerous tribes on the western coasts of Africa had plenty of contact with the Middle East. They hang around in all the dozens of mountain ranges that liberally pepper the landscape (for no real seismological reason--again, for storytelling) just waiting for adventurers to go kill them. -Please, share with us the reasons why specific mountains and mountain ranges in Faerûn exist. You seem to know so much about them. …And yet they never figured out not to be complete morons, even after countless times of getting their asses handed to them. Go figure! -That’s the drawbacks that come with being a race that is not only intellectually inferior, but also self-destructive. How is that a response to what I said? Magic doesn't need to be INFINITE to effect real, significant change in society. -A Cleric can create X amount of food in a day, should their deity acquiesce, and grant them the spell. In a city such as, say, Waterdeep, that boasts a huge population, is this rather small amount of food going to make a large impact? No, not really. A Wizard can teleport a few crates a limited distance once or twice. Is this really going to make a profound impact on the world? No, not really. And this is where you fail your Economics check. The supply of clerics is not exogenous. People can choose to be clerics. If it there was an incentive (create food and water, yadda yadda), more people would choose to be clerics. And the fact that the majority of people who have the ability to become clerics choose to be mouth-breathers shows that the world is not realistic. You would know this if you had, you know, a background in Economics. Just sayin'. -The majority of Clerics in the Realms are indeed the ones who sit back and do “menial tasks” in churches, temples, monasteries, and the like. Most do not become adventurers, as I believe you are implying. You would know that if you had, you know, common sense. Just sayin’. -Also, the ability to choose something, and the ability to actually accomplish it are two separate things. Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #6 isn’t so bright. Somewhere along the way, he decides to become a Wizard, so he can magically enhance his crops. Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #6 tries to get into the local Wizard’s guild, but alas, he is too poor to pay his membership fees, and too stupid to actually be able to cast magic, were he able to make his dues. That is idiotic. You never know when you might need to in cast that spell in the future? Well hell, I'm not casting my burning hands right now! You never know, I might need it in the next eight hours. I mean seriously, doesn't that reek of making excuses? -No, it makes plenty of sense to me. Teleportation and Burning Hands are two different spells, with two very different purposes. When I play Wizards, and are at the appropriate level, I always make sure to have some kind of translocational spell ready and prepared, just in case. When you are in a life-or-death situation, wouldn’t you feel silly knowing that you wasted your last translocational spell teleporting from the 5th floor of your abode to the 1st floor, to greet a guest? When that guest happens to be an assassin, and you are stuck in the entrance chamber of your own tower, with all of the door still shut, and possibly locked, now what? Oh, jesus, you need to pray to the gods of Economics extra hard tonight. Altruistic? Do you even understand how trade works? It would be unfair to do this to you, so I'll leave you to figure this one out on your own. -Why would a Cormyrian War Wizard be interested in trade? Why would an Elven High Mage be interested in trade? Why would any given Incantrix be interested in trade? The typical wizard tends to mind his/her own affairs. Why would any given Wizard want to become so involved in the magical trading industry, assuming it didn’t benefit him or her somehow? There is no reason, so your example, again, is lacking. Don't you think that different orcish clans, who never met each other, been living separately for hundreds of years, would develop different social constructs? No. They all act the same way, because they're a victim of society. What society, let me ask you? -Orcish society, which is governed by Shaman and Clerics dedicated to Gruumsh, whose dogma includes, “Seek unceasing war against your enemies and kill or enslave those that oppose you”, and “Be strong and be prepared to show your strength at any moment. Showing weakness is the key to an early death. Those that are too weak to fight for your tribe should be put to death.”. Don't get too caught up in the lore, guys. It's not that sensical. -That just got nominated for ‘Quote of the Month’. My avatar is the the ugliest person I could find. As this site shows no support to my scaly brethren I just chose one that looked strange. Again, you soft skinned people have no humor. -Ah, so you don’t know what it is either. ;)
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 03:20 PM	One one level, taking the 'why' too far is, I agree, missing the point. However, these dynamics are worth considering enough to allow one to DM orcs consistently and generate new plot hooks, a job they're comfortably consistent and understandable enough to fulfil.That's not why I joined this discussion. This is why: Who really cares where they came from! All I know is I don't see why we just can't let them have a place to live! Like the that little Northern area above that Troll infested swamp! Maybe if we started treating them nicely and as one of our allies they would become more civilized. Geeze why is it a human has to think of these things when Elves and Dwarves live so much longer. :rolleyes:and this: That is because when the glorious King Obauld tried,twice mind you, to have a kingdom he was opposed. If the orcs where not always treated like vermin and allowed they same things everyone else has, i.e. land, safe borders, and a kingdom of their own instead of being pushed to all the inhospitable places where they can not make a living other than raiding you humans would see that they can be just as civilized as the rest of you. Though I use that word loosely when dealing with elves and humans. Reply With Quoteand A couple of quick notes... Obould didn't try to settle a land, clear trees and plant farms. He attacked and slaughtered the dwarven inhabitants of a dwarven-built citadel. Now, in and of itself this is life, the strong take from the weak... in this case the Felbarran dwarves were weak so they lost. Now some years later the Felbarran dwarves used trickery to take their Citadel back and Obould's forces, drained as they were by battle against a rival orc horde were too weakened to take it back... awww shucks! Obould later on came roaring out of the mountains with a new horde, supported by drow trickery and giant strength and managed a stellar success. The orcs took huge tracts of land and as of the end of the trilogy still held them... hooray for orcs!and (emphasis mine): Might that have something to do with his method? Slaughtering innocent humans and seizing their lands then attacking Dwarven Citadels tends to make you lots of enemies. Not that idiot Orcs would understand that, but ignorance is no excuse.and definitely: What's with the unabashed Orc apologeticism around here lately, anyway?and The orcs are like cockroaches. You can kill as many as you like but you will never be able to wipe out the filthy things.and definitely Truth be told at the end of the triology the people all around King Oboulds new kingdom decided to let the orcs have what they won, but noooooooo, stupid dwarves and that Drizzt Do' Urden wont let them have what the rightfully earned through the means of war just like every other damnable nation in history.:mad: :mad: Acting like complete racists, just because they are orcs doesnt mean they cant have a land of their own, by the bloddy hells!!!! Even when they are minding their own bussiness in the montains and under the rocks, warring between their OWN CLANS, some group of adventurers have to come around and murder them for no other reason than the color of their skin and the tusks that pop out from under their lips.......UGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: Doesn't seem like a "Quick, DM needs new plot material!" sort of situation on this thread at all, to me. I certainly don't need to ask Ed why he wants to make a good story and bring home the bacon to Mama Greenwood.Now you suggest primarily mercenary motive on Ed's part, which is farcical given the amount he sold the Realms for and the time he spends providing lore answers at Candlekeep running in hundreds of thousands of words, for free.Change "wants" to "wanted."
Poison_Dusk 05-30-07, 03:24 PM	Course I do, LK. It's Range Viper, from G.I. Joe. Or to be correct, from C.O.B.R.A.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 03:48 PM	Orcs also suffer a –2 to WIS, as well, if I am not mistaken.Mountain orcs. Gray orcs in fact are wiser than humans. +2 WIS. -You’re not helping your own argument. So, you’re saying that their INT/WIS penalties don’t matter, since they just reflect the lore that says that they are not as mentally capable as Humans.Not what I'm saying. See below.Game mechanic, or lore, again, Orcs are not as intelligent as Humans. They are less intelligent, as a race as a whole. Why should we expect them to exhibit Human intelligence and achieve Human feats, when they are not Humans, and are on average, not as smart?Some are wiser, half-orcs are no less wise, and mountain orcs are less wise. But there are roughly equal numbers of 12 WIS humans as 8 WIS humans. Fitting it to a bell curve, the orcs are really not that much dumber. Why are the wiser gray orcs idiots? -10 and 11 are the average scores. Average, being the majority. Think, man.This is what you said: Applying D&D terms to the actual world, all Humans have the same INT (+0) bonus. No penalties, and no bonuses.On second thought, maybe you should stop thinking, and focus on typing. Please, share with us the reasons why specific mountains and mountain ranges in Faerûn exist. You seem to know so much about them.Actually, I don't. That's the problem. Can you explain to me the seismological reason why the Sunset Mts. and the Stormhorns exist in such a peculiar manner? On the other hand, I can explain why the Himalayas exist, why the Rockies exist, why the Andes exist. I mean, are you SERIOUSLY arguing that the geography of the Realms is realistic? Don't try to win an argument here. Be honest. Do you think a professor in Geosciences would find it believable? That’s the drawbacks that come with being a race that is not only intellectually inferior, but also self-destructive.Is that how you view poor black people in the United States too? They're just self-destructive, man! -A Cleric can create X amount of food in a day, should their deity acquiesce, and grant them the spell. In a city such as, say, Waterdeep, that boasts a huge population, is this rather small amount of food going to make a large impact? No, not really. A Wizard can teleport a few crates a limited distance once or twice. Is this really going to make a profound impact on the world? No, not really.A few crates? Look at my calculations. -The majority of Clerics in the Realms are indeed the ones who sit back and do “menial tasks” in churches, temples, monasteries, and the like. Most do not become adventurers, as I believe you are implying. You would know that if you had, you know, common sense. Just sayin’.This has nothing to do with what I said. I don't even know what you're trying to convey here. Think, man. -Also, the ability to choose something, and the ability to actually accomplish it are two separate things. Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #6 isn’t so bright. Somewhere along the way, he decides to become a Wizard, so he can magically enhance his crops. Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #6 tries to get into the local Wizard’s guild, but alas, he is too poor to pay his membership fees, and too stupid to actually be able to cast magic, were he able to make his dues.Please read what I write before you quote it and ignore it:And the fact that the majority of people who have the ability to become clerics There are plenty in the realms who have the wisdom necessary to become clerics who don't. They ought to, because it would make them money, because create food/water is in high demand. This is how a market economy works. But they don't want to, you're saying. They'd rather be monks! Well, it doesn't pay to be a monk, and that's why there are few monks in the U.S.--because it pays to be a consultant. -No, it makes plenty of sense to me. Teleportation and Burning Hands are two different spells, with two very different purposes. When I play Wizards, and are at the appropriate level, I always make sure to have some kind of translocational spell ready and prepared, just in case. When you are in a life-or-death situation, wouldn’t you feel silly knowing that you wasted your last translocational spell teleporting from the 5th floor of your abode to the 1st floor, to greet a guest? When that guest happens to be an assassin, and you are stuck in the entrance chamber of your own tower, with all of the door still shut, and possibly locked, now what?Yes, because a level 15 wizard who has 10 spell slots of 5th and above, and who figured out he can make bank by just ferrying crap between Silverymoon and Halruaa is going to 1) use up all 10 of them instead of keeping one, and 2) really comes across a lot of rakshasas he's got to avoid on a daily basis. Please. People don't carry guns around with them when they go to work in San Francisco and Denver. That's what these wizards would be doing. Why would a Cormyrian War Wizard be interested in trade? Why would an Elven High Mage be interested in trade? Why would any given Incantrix be interested in trade? The typical wizard tends to mind his/her own affairs. Why would any given Wizard want to become so involved in the magical trading industry, assuming it didn’t benefit him or her somehow? There is no reason, so your example, again, is lacking.I apologize. You are not getting this, and it's rather unfair for me to expect you to without explaining myself. The FR societies portrayed have a great demand for traders. These societies value the transportation of goods from one place to another greatly. People value food, shelter, pleasure--lots more things, and they all require money. So to buy these things, people need to provide something to society that is worth money. With this money, they can buy their goodies. This is how a market economy works. So why would an Incantatrix not benefit from making fat wads of cash? After all, she wants that +30 competence to spellcraft item so she can actually twin/maximize those spells with her class abilities! Everybody wants more money. This is why we all have jobs in the real world. And apparently nobody except worthless commoners have jobs in the FR. Realistic? I don't think so. -Orcish society, which is governed by Shaman and Clerics dedicated to Gruumsh, whose dogma includes, “Seek unceasing war against your enemies and kill or enslave those that oppose you”, and “Be strong and be prepared to show your strength at any moment. Showing weakness is the key to an early death. Those that are too weak to fight for your tribe should be put to death.”.Why? Who told them to worship Gruumsh? It's a stupid dogma, and they should know this. If they're not inherently predisposed to this stuff, why are they taking to it? Why are you defending literature? It doesn't have to make sense. You understand this, right? It's fun. It creates fun books and fun games. It's not realistic. The mountains aren't realistic. The economy sure as hell isn't realistic. Even the social constructs aren't realistic. But they're realistic enough, just enough, for people to have fun.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 03:56 PM	1. Orcs, like all living creatures, do things that make them happy. This is a fundamental driving force of life. You do what you want to do, and you want to do it because you think you prefer the consequences to the alternatives. That, I agree with. 2. Whatever it is that makes them happy, running around killing each other on mountain slopes is definitely not the best way to go about it, and if they had human intelligence like they're supposed to, they'd realize it. Where do you get the idea that Orcs have human intelligence? (Mechanics aside.) 2a. Unless running around killing each other is precisely what makes them happy, you say. Which is extremely unlikely. The more likely situation would be running around exerting dominance over other creatures, or even the thrill of combat, or something correlated with killing each other, but not actually the act itself. You feel that this is extremely unlikely based on what, precisely? These are creatures that, like the other humanoids/demihumans, have no evidence of evolution, so they would not have developed the same genetic 'Pack mentality' disposition that humans did (our primate ancestors travelled in groups). They were created by a CE God who revels in war and destruction and raiding. A DvR 17 Greater Deity created them in his image. Why would they not largely match him (as far as how they're neurologically programmed, as a basis)? 3. If they really wanted to do anything, they would have organized themselves, or formed allies, or did any of a trillion different things that intelligent human societies have come up with over the past five thousand years. Instead, they do idiotic things like band together for one campaign, then revert to barbarism again (conveniently for the next plot line), ally themselves with some evil power, and then forget about it, etc. Again, there's no evidence that they have human-level Intelligence. Do you have anything to back this assertion up? Mechanically OR from lore/fluff? I don't need to stalk you to tell from your posts that you have no idea how complex economic and anthropological systems like international trade works. Your posts echo things that are force-fed to 14 year olds who like reading about tales of faraway lands. You said: "Cormyr does have tons of trade going on but it's got some VERY big rivals in Sembia and Westgate," which is a pretty funny statement, if you think about it. Oddly enough, I think anthropology in itself is largely childish and bogus. I default to neurology and more hard science branches of psychology (ev-psych is one of my favorites). So just the fact that you're referencing economy and anthropology as if they were something that a 14 year old couldn't understand makes me sort of go Lawlz. Your assertion would make sense IF Orcs had evolved (and had formed similar neurological patterns and psychological schemas as humans) and IF they were as mentally competent as humans (either in lore or mechanics) - but both of these do not apply to them. Red Wizards are supposed to have a heavy hand in that, but only in such a way that mimics Renaissance human history, not what Renaissance human history would have been like if we'd had teleport and create food and water and whatnot. This is because people like reading about certain things, and when you factor in teleport/create food and water, the society changes, and you can no longer write books about those certain things anymore. Remember that the Realms were designed largely without D&D mechanics in mind, and even the novel depictions of spellcasters don't mirror (and never have) the mechanical representations of them in the rules. The Realms are perfectly consistent and logical, internally. It's the fact that a lot of things were messily pasted on top of them in the form of D&D rules that makes them seem illogical. And even the bits of the Realms that were detailed in 1E and 2E will hardly match up perfectly with what is readily available under the 3.X mechanical outline. Rather than try to explain to you the definition of "logic," let me just leave you with this short phrase that may help you understand: The more you understand about the world, the more things in the world make sense. Logical sense, that is. I actually largely agree with this. Unlike Shadez, I think that everything makes sense - we're just not aware of how to perceive and track it all, properly. But that's why I'm studying to be a particle physicist. Everything has a REASON for being how it is. The question is whether one decides to accept those reasons or not - such as the reasoning being Orcish behavior and them being created in Gruumsh's image. That, to me, is a perfectly reasonable explanation for their behavior, alignment, mental faculties, and society. As this is an example of purely magical/fantastic lore, it's also nigh impossible to judge it as 'logical or illogical' (except within internal consistency, in which case it's illogical) without projecting personal biases onto the topic.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 04:00 PM	One major point of contention... I vehemently disagree with basing a creature's capability for civilization upon Wisdom. I could see using both Intelligence AND Wisdom, but I feel that the burden of social evolution relies on Intelligence more. It is Intelligence that allows creatures to logically process, assimilate, apply, and recall data. It's Wisdom that tells them what they "should" do with it (more ethical than cognitive). If Orcs can't mentally process data, they're not going to be able to choose widely the possible avenues open to them. This really does make me start thinking about analogies related to Asperger's, Autism, mental retardation, and various genetic disabilities in the good 'ol DSM.
Faraer 05-30-07, 04:03 PM	Unlike Shadez, I think that everything makes sense - we're just not aware of how to perceive and track it all, properly.Maybe, though I think probably in the same sense as anything can be eaten, painted, or hit with a hammer -- nonrational ways of understanding work better for some things. Be careful of 'to a particle physicist, everything looks like a particle'. And even if something can be rationally perceived and tracked in theory, the human mind may not be powerful enough to do it. And what about Gödel's incompleteness theorems?
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 04:06 PM	I actually largely agree with this. Unlike Shadez, I think that everything makes sense - we're just not aware of how to perceive and track it all, properly. I wasn't entirely accurate in my earlier statement, it should read more like; Human history is rife with examples of people doing things that, while logical in the sense that the various opposing (or assisting) forces influencing their decisions, run counter to the improvement of their lives. Much like the battle for dominance in orc tribes tends to weaken the tribe as a whole (as opposed to those orcs working together).
Boda 05-30-07, 04:11 PM	Isnt the Intelligence stat more related with the memory functions? The mind capabilities related to per example politics, finance, strategies arent exactly the same as to the research. In the Realms, most human leaders dont have high intelligence, and yet they can ''outsmart'' many wizards around. Example: Mirt is no brain powerhouse but he can trick many higher intelligence mages around. Goodly races - always loved that term. Obould kind? Sure, in a Genghis Khan kind of way.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 04:14 PM	Maybe, though I think probably in the same sense as anything can be eaten, painted, or hit with a hammer -- nonrational ways of understanding work better for some things. Be careful of 'to a particle physicist, everything looks like a particle'. And what about Gödel's incompleteness theorems? Oddly enough, an alternative name for particle physics is high energy physics. Which sort of paints almost the opposite metaphorical image. As to Godel's, I'll admit I'm not very aware of it. It's been mentioned in Quantum Mechanics before, but only in passing. While I could Wiki it and pretend to have known about it, I won't. I'll Wiki it and admit my ignorance. The main difference here is that this is purely mathematical theory. Mathematics and physics kind of hate each other at times. Differential Equations, a purely mathematical field in theory, is nigh useless without physical limitations placed on it. It's reminiscient of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in some ways, and reminds me of the Copenhagen Interpretation - there's no higher force guiding determinancy, so it's literally impossible (philosophically) to determine exact numbers for physical values, rather than probabilities. Particle physics, oddly enough, has surprisingly little to do with particles. It's more like swirling masses of probability that we assign estimated limits on and call 'particles' for ease of calculation. That's largely how I view society, too, and pretty much everything in general. With sufficient knowledge, everything present in reality is more or less a probable result of the events that led up to it. It's perfectly logical in its lack of absoluteness.
ancalimohtar 05-30-07, 04:17 PM	Where do you get the idea that Orcs have human intelligence? (Mechanics aside.)Their leaders are always quite intelligent/cunning/whatever. They're rarely led by retards, at the very least. And -2 INT +2 WIS seems like a small drop in cognitive abilities, if even. I'll give you that mountain orcs are cretins. You feel that this is extremely unlikely based on what, precisely? These are creatures that, like the other humanoids/demihumans, have no evidence of evolution, so they would not have developed the same genetic 'Pack mentality' disposition that humans did (our primate ancestors travelled in groups). They were created by a CE God who revels in war and destruction and raiding. A DvR 17 Greater Deity created them in his image. Why would they not largely match him (as far as how they're neurologically programmed, as a basis)?I see what you're saying, but then what about Elves? Dwarves? The only progenitor race you can play is a human. I don't think the concept of evolution is required to exist in FR for humanoid creatures to behave in the most fundamental ways like real humans. Oddly enough, I think anthropology in itself is largely childish and bogus. I default to neurology and more hard science branches of psychology (ev-psych is one of my favorites). So just the fact that you're referencing economy and anthropology as if they were something that a 14 year old couldn't understand makes me sort of go Lawlz.I started out in Mathematics, but found Economics much more applicable and interesting. Anthropology is actually a very useful, though undisciplined, discipline, if you will. The fact that you're contemptuous of the study of human society reflects poorly on you; as we were talking about the formation of cities and other social constructs in FR, anthropology was very relevant. Neurology, not so much. Remember that the Realms were designed largely without D&D mechanics in mind, and even the novel depictions of spellcasters don't mirror (and never have) the mechanical representations of them in the rules.Alright, so in the novels, a level 15 wizard can't teleport 10 times a day. I'll grant you that. Maybe create food and water isn't even a level 3 spell. But it's certainly not level 9. I merely used two examples to show why the presence of magic changes everything. You can't build societies the same way the Turks and Goths did. With magic, it simply wouldn't have happened that way. The Realms are perfectly consistent and logical, internally.I really, really doubt this. But whatever. I actually largely agree with this. Unlike Shadez, I think that everything makes sense - we're just not aware of how to perceive and track it all, properly.No surprise there. You're the gay atheist, right? We probably believe in many of the same things.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 04:18 PM	Isnt the Intelligence stat more related with the memory functions? The mind capabilities related to per example politics, finance, strategies arent exactly the same as to the research. SRD - Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. Learning something and applying reason to what you've learned are pretty much the cornerstones for ANY human (or human like) society. In the Realms, most human leaders dont have high intelligence, and yet they can ''outsmart'' many wizards around. Example: Mirt is no brain powerhouse but he can trick many higher intelligence mages around. I've not read many cases of what you're referring to, but I'd imagine much of it would have to deal with Charisma rather than Intelligence. A pretty face and voice can seduce more intelligent people. (I would insert anecdotal experiences, but I would just seem emo.)
Faraer 05-30-07, 04:25 PM	Yes, I know particle physics isn't just about Newtonian particles. I just think scientism is terribly seductive for scientists: the faith that, because science is effective in certain areas, it will some day give all the answers everywhere else. Maybe! But it's unscientific to assume so. I don't know exactly what interpretation of quantum mechanics is scientifically prevalent right now, but my money isn't on the ones that treat those equations as mere imaginary numbers providing probabilities for 'real' macroscopic events.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 04:42 PM	Their leaders are always quite intelligent/cunning/whatever. I haven't read any novels featuring Orcs. So, from my point of view, without actual citations, the truth is "None of their leaders have been depicted as particularly cunning/brilliant." And even so, I would imagine it would be more of a feral cunning, more like that of a predator. (Predators being more intelligent in general than hervibores.) They're rarely led by retards, at the very least. And -2 INT +2 WIS seems like a small drop in cognitive abilities, if even. I'll give you that mountain orcs are cretins. Wisdom DOESN'T allow a race to develop linguistics, mathematics, technology, or the like. Intelligence, however, does (provided other various criteria are met, such as resources, economic capability, and a lack of religious/cultural antagonism towards the people and ideas supporting them). Wisdom tends to observe the behavior of the world around them, and thus gives one a certain level of knowledge in how to react to it. However, learning to control that environment is more a hallmark of Intelligence, which is largely linked to ideas like imagination, innovation, invention, dreams, and the like. In a way, almost all animals could be said to be wise. They typically have more instinctive knowledge as to how to react to their environments and others than humans do. But would you call them all intelligent? I see what you're saying, but then what about Elves? Dwarves? The same. I am a super hardcore advocate in the lore as stated concerning the creation of the demihumans. I hate people applying the idea of evolution to them (the true biological term), despite the fact that I'm an overwhelming advocate for the hypothesis in person. In other words: when there's magic involved, one must look very closely at logical consistency. It may not seem 'right' to one's mindset, but as long as it's internally consistent, calling it 'wrong' is merely incorrect. It would be like saying "Casting a Fireball is illogical" because we don't do it in the real world (utilizing standard fantasy methodology). This is why I'm such a huge, outspoken fan when lore is changed/contradicted in printed material. The only progenitor race you can play is a human. I don't think the concept of evolution is required to exist in FR for humanoid creatures to behave in the most fundamental ways like real humans. You mean Creator Race? Also note that there's no evidence of humanity being created by a specific deity; this doesn't mean that they are biologically built the same as Earth humans, though. At best they are largely superficially similar. I started out in Mathematics, but found Economics much more applicable and interesting. Anthropology is actually a very useful, though undisciplined, discipline, if you will. I agree with that. The fact that you're contemptuous of the study of human society reflects poorly on you; as we were talking about the formation of cities and other social constructs in FR, anthropology was very relevant. Neurology, not so much. It certainly is. One's neurological pattern forms one's persona. Anthropology is many personas interacting. I actually don't dislike Anthropology itself, so much as the apparent lack of hard science applied to it - when I think it could be integrated with much success. That's largely why I enjoy Ev-Psych so much: it's bringing together multiple relevant fields of science to try to understand a bigger picture. Alright, so in the novels, a level 15 wizard can't teleport 10 times a day. I'll grant you that. Maybe create food and water isn't even a level 3 spell. But it's certainly not level 9. I merely used two examples to show why the presence of magic changes everything. You're right. But we've had numerous examples of Faerunian society working differently due to magic. Examples include Netheril, Halruaa, Thay, the Elven Mythals, and the Chauntean magical mega-farm, Greenfields, which provides a huge amount of food for Waterdeep's population. Sadly, the RPG-Gods (WotC more than TSR) have not thought such information relevant to actual gameplay. And maybe it isn't. But it's sure relevant when one judges a game world based on its logic, to see if they're going to play there in the first place. This is largely why so many of us DO enjoy Ed's personal flavor of Realms lore - he makes it a little clearer of how Faerun works in HIS world, which seems a heck of a lot more logical than the way it's been presented in print, sometimes. For instance, I adored his bit on lighthouses. They were still heavily used in civilized Earth cultures up until fairly recently. Ed's made it clear that the Elves have developed magical light houses that emit telepathic beacons, keyed to certain Elven individuals if necessary. Magic DOES play a large role in the social, economic, and technological advancement in Faerun. We just don't get to see it in the published books, because apparently such information "doesn't sell well." You can't build societies the same way the Turks and Goths did. With magic, it simply wouldn't have happened that way. Not exactly, no, and that's why so many of us hate it when people call Cormyr "England" or "France" (I hope you note the irony in some people saying, with equally frequency, it's "blatantly" one - and another person says it's "blatantly" the other, as if they were identical nations and cultures). I really, really doubt this. But whatever. I may exaggerate in my choice of the adverb "perfectly." But, as you pointed out yourself, the more one understands something, the more logical it seems. How can one understand anything sufficiently, for it to be logical, when it's clear that we only have a fraction of Faerunian data as it's been compiled by Ed? In physics, if we were presented with such data, we'd basically store it away without making a judgment, since it's obviously not a large enough sample to draw any remotely probable conclusions. But since we observe these things happening in reality (or we see them happening in Faerunian books), they have to be logical. We just don't know how probable they are. That's largely how I see Faerun (and any other D&D setting), personally. No surprise there. You're the gay atheist, right? We probably believe in many of the same things. Probably. Note, also, that I've never played in an FR game, have read very, very few novels, and would trust Ed's opinion on all things FR just as I would Margaret Weis's on Dragonlance or Keith Baker's on Eberron. When you make the world, you're more likely to know all the facets that go into it, and why they're there. That's just, well, logical to me, unless you've set up a computer program to string together random bits of information. But even then, you could then logically explain how it happens (by pointing out the code).
GothicDan 05-30-07, 04:47 PM	I just think scientism is terribly seductive for scientists: the faith that, because science is effective in certain areas, it will some day give all the answers everywhere else. Maybe! But it's unscientific to assume so. Agreed. Humans have evolved with emotions. While those have scientific roots, we cannot scientifically predict them. I like to consider sentience a sort of constant Quantum system. Based on previous knowledge of individuals we've known intimately over an extended period of time, we can predict with probably some accuracy how they'll react in a certain situation. ... But never for sure. I don't know exactly what interpretation of quantum mechanics is scientifically prevalent right now, but my money isn't on the ones that treat those equations as mere imaginary numbers providing probabilities for 'real' macroscopic events. That's the one I referenced above, actually. The other two major schools of thought (Orthodox [Einstein - it's all deterministic, we just don't know it yet] and the name of the third evades me [but it's basically says it's just impossible to know anything, and there's no actual tendencies or laws - complete chaos]) have been largely rejected, because neither of them can explain with as much accuracy and precision the physical events we observe. Physics has become less philosophy and more 'predicting the future' (which is the way my first physics prof. in college defined it - I loved him; he had an Associates in Religion and a Doctorate in Astrophysics from Princeton, and played D&D). And that's the best way I can try to sum it up to other people (without waxing on about Natural Philosophers and such). If it predicts the future, we use it. We consider it valid, if not right.
Faraer 05-30-07, 05:02 PM	I like to consider sentience a sort of constant Quantum system.Look into the work of people like Henry Stapp.. . . have been largely rejected, because neither of them can explain with as much accuracy and precision the physical events we observe.As I understand it, multiple ontological interpretations of quantum mechanics are equally explanatory and predictive, and are not yet falsifiable. Of those I've read, I like David Bohm's. I'll stop now.
Stigger 05-30-07, 05:25 PM	The problem with the 'why wouldn't everyone who could become a cleric if they could' suggestion is that being a cleric requires not only wisdom, but also a level of religious devotion to a diety, who presumably would know if a potential cleric was praying out of piety, or some motivatin for economic gain... short of Waukeen, I can't see many taking a particularly favorable view of it. Same with being a paladin or ranger... they all require faith and devotion in the Realms. That's the real prohibition, more than wisdom scores or anything else. As to the geography of the Realms and whether it makes sense siesmologically... without knowing much about the tectonic structures of Faerun, who can really say if its logical or illogical? We do know that physics operates in at least a somewhat different way however, so a lot of the scientific arguements go right out of the window. It works, not the same way it does on Earth, but there are plenty of well thought out disclaimers and reasonings as to why that isn't the case.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 05:55 PM	Look into the work of people like Henry Stapp. *Writes down.* As I understand it, multiple ontological interpretations of quantum mechanics are equally explanatory and predictive, and are not yet falsifiable. Of those I've read, I like David Bohm's. They aren't falsifiable, that's for sure. There's still the 3 major interpretations floating around (and countless less popular ones), but there's been a slow drive towards the Copenhagen Interpretation recently. This is because its assertion best directly mirrors what we observe (probabilities, but no certainties). The other two theories, while not proven false, do not quite match 'reality' as far as we've seen as well as this one. The Orthodox approach postulates univeral determinism, yet we've found no solid suggestions to any such pattern; the last one postulates the 'we can never know' opinion, but in some cases we do know outcomes well enough such that we can affect quantum systems. The Copenhagen was says, pretty much, exactly what Quantum Mechanics has measured in reality: there's a possibility for everything, and QM deals largely with finding those probabilities (with varying, but encouraging, levels of success). It's more a matter of application than philosophy. The Copenhagen one has the most suggestive evidence, but none have been proven or disproven. It was largely made to take into evidence both of the other two popular interpretations - a 'middle road' that would hopefully avoid any overly dogmatic or seemingly ethical stances. .... I'll stop now, too. ;) I'll stop now.
Boda 05-30-07, 08:50 PM	SRD - I've not read many cases of what you're referring to, but I'd imagine much of it would have to deal with Charisma rather than Intelligence. A pretty face and voice can seduce more intelligent people. (I would insert anecdotal experiences, but I would just seem emo.) I was refering to ''outsmarting'' as in outmaneuvering, deceiving, gainning tactical advantage.Example - Entreri has outsmarted wizards before. Note that intelligence score grants more spell slots, and higher skill score in mostly knowledge based skills. So intelligence basiclly relates memory capabilities, not all mental faculties. Scientists are considerate more intelligent than average, but in a series of situations that doesnt mean anything. So assuming that just because a npc has a higher int core, that doesnt mean that it is capable of the best plans or tatics. Even geniuses can do really stupid things. Just to state the point that the lack of int isnt the sole responsible for orcs attitude. Maybe a sum of factors(low int, low wis, cultural mindset, religious influence, etc).
GothicDan 05-30-07, 09:02 PM	I was refering to ''outsmarting'' as in outmaneuvering, deceiving, gainning tactical advantage. That is just as much Cha and Wis as it is Int. Example - Entreri has outsmarted wizards before. Of course he would. RAS likes writing him, and fans like reading about him, and RAS stays away from any form of powerful spellcaster as a meaningful protagonist (even an 'evil' protagonist) Note that intelligence score grants more spell slots, and higher skill score in mostly knowledge based skills. So intelligence basiclly relates memory capabilities, not all mental faculties. I never said it related to all mental faculties. I specifically copied and pasted the SRD definition to you. And Skill points are based on Int for all classes. So all Skills thus depend, at least somewhat, potentially on Intelligence. Scientists are considerate more intelligent than average, but in a series of situations that doesnt mean anything. It depends on the situation. So assuming that just because a npc has a higher int core, that doesnt mean that it is capable of the best plans or tatics. That's actually how Int is used. That's not Wisdom or Cha. Even geniuses can do really stupid things. Typically, geniuses do "unwise" things. They lack "common sense" and "people skills." They very rarely do "dumb" things, unless you mean "dumb" as in "not socially acceptable," in which case that'd be based on Wis and Cha.
souldnce9 05-30-07, 09:02 PM	So.................... um................... What about those Goblins?
GothicDan 05-30-07, 09:05 PM	I've actually always seen Goblins as more civilized than Orcs. Hobgoblins, too.
Lord_Steve 05-30-07, 09:17 PM	I've actually always seen Goblins as more civilized than Orcs. Hobgoblins, too. Well, they are for the most part Lawful eh?
souldnce9 05-30-07, 09:35 PM	Well I think they definately get the short end of the stick. :) :D :heehee :rofl:
Poison_Dusk 05-30-07, 10:03 PM	Hobgoblins are Awesome, and should not have A +1 LA. I like them as much as orcs. Goblins and Bugbears slightly less.
zerodeviere 05-31-07, 02:17 AM	If you look on a Character sheet Wisdom is used for so few things where as intelligence is used in alot of things. and it gives you skill points to put in any skill even those that use wisdom as a modifier so i would say that Intelligence is the main factor in learning and retaining the knowledge where Wisdom is more about learning from your mistakes. But since most orcs fall to their knees and follow someone elses ideas and only see them as weak if they fail in an endevor instead of it just being a bad plan, they can't learn from someone elses mistakes and aare to used to being in numbers they dont have the self confidence to go it alone. Would be interesting to take an orc in without changing it's alignment and teach it to read and give it a manuel to raise its int. +5 and teach it to cast spells til it is about a 10th - 15th lvl wizard then send it home to lead its people. but this is just my opinion on those things. i call them it because I have an elf character and Orcs and elves don't mix well. Elves typically kill them on sight especially if they seem to be massing and orcs kill elves on sight when they out number us or when they see elven children they can easily slaughter for the fun of it. Like having them for roleplaying but as an elf would slaughter every last one of them. goblins and giants too.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 03:45 AM	I really don't know that much about Hobgoblins in the Realms.
alamut 05-31-07, 08:45 AM	I never really got an answer to my question. How old do we reckon Obauld is? He's been at this for a while. He seems strong now, and I know that no author (or DM except me) would copnsider having him die of old age at the venerable age of 35. However, shouldn't it be a consideration?:confused:
Khaelieth 05-31-07, 08:51 AM	He. Just realised, scro is orcs backwards!
Stigger 05-31-07, 10:08 AM	Don't think anyone but RAS actually knows how old Obould is really.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 10:46 AM	He. Just realised, scro is orcs backwards! -Congratulations. :clap: ;) -Now, I’ll just make a few points. Actually, I don't. That's the problem. Can you explain to me the seismological reason why the Sunset Mts. and the Stormhorns exist in such a peculiar manner? On the other hand, I can explain why the Himalayas exist, why the Rockies exist, why the Andes exist. I mean, are you SERIOUSLY arguing that the geography of the Realms is realistic? Don't try to win an argument here. Be honest. Do you think a professor in Geosciences would find it believable? -So, you admit that you don’t know the specifics, but yet, you’ll claim that they are mired with non-realistic notions. Only Ed Greenwood knows the specifics, in all likelihood, as these kinds of details seem like some of those things that don’t have had a place to be printed, nor does it look like it ever will. Anyway, without having any of that information in front of you, how can you say that the placement of said mountains and mountain rages already makes little sense? You don’t know the first thing about the subject. That’s like claiming the jury in any given court case made the wrong decision, without actually having the transcript, or any of the other information in front of you to reference. -As for the geography of the Realms as a whole, which was not what we were talking about, but are talking about now, yes, I think it makes sense, for a world where magic is applied liberally. What a professor of geosciences says of not matters little, because Abeir-Toril is not the Earth, and the Earth is not Abeir-Toril. The thoughts of professor at geosciences would matter, in this situation, as much as a professor of geosciences from Krypton, Coruscant, and Krynn. Abeir-Toril is it’s own unique world, with it’s own unique phenomena. Is that how you view poor black people in the United States too? They're just self-destructive, man! -I don’t know why you brought that up, or how you came to link the two separate subjects, but that’s not saying much about you. Why? Who told them to worship Gruumsh? It's a stupid dogma, and they should know this. If they're not inherently predisposed to this stuff, why are they taking to it? -They worship Gruumsh because their fathers worshipper Gruumsh, and their fathers before them worshipped Gruumsh. Furthermore, Gruumsh created the Orcish race, and as I said before, Orcish society is governed by Orc Shaman and Clerics dedicated to Gruumsh. If someone grows up in a hippie commune, you expect them to be money-loving capitalists when they leave? Why are you defending literature? It doesn't have to make sense. You understand this, right? It's fun. It creates fun books and fun games. It's not realistic. The mountains aren't realistic. The economy sure as hell isn't realistic. Even the social constructs aren't realistic. But they're realistic enough, just enough, for people to have fun. -Because it irks me when random people, such as you, write off any general or specific details of the setting as incorrect, and/or unrealistic when: A) Not all of the information about said subject is even available to us. B) You simply don’t understand it, and in turn, believe that it makes “no sense”. C) People have a vendetta against the setting, for whatever the reason, and look for every little opportunity to bash it, and try to rip it apart.
ShadezofDis 05-31-07, 10:53 AM	He. Just realised, scro is orcs backwards! Which is why scro are so much better than orcs, they're just backwards orcs. ;)
ShadezofDis 05-31-07, 10:56 AM	-They worship Gruumsh because their fathers worshipper Gruumsh, and their fathers before them worshipped Gruumsh. Furthermore, Gruumsh created the Orcish race, and as I said before, Orcish society is governed by Orc Shaman and Clerics dedicated to Gruumsh. If someone grows up in a hippie commune, you expect them to be money-loving capitalists when they leave? And there could be additional physiological reasons why the Orcs do what they do. Further, applying "human sense" to Orcs is a fallacy to begin with. Just as it is when applying to elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, dragons, lizardmen, goblins, giants, etc etc -Because it irks me when random people, such as you, write off any general or specific details of the setting as incorrect, and/or unrealistic when: A) Not all of the information about said subject is even available to us. B) You simply don’t understand it, and in turn, believe that it makes “no sense”. C) People have a vendetta against the setting, for whatever the reason, and look for every little opportunity to bash it, and try to rip it apart. Well said.
creyzi4zb12 05-31-07, 01:53 PM	Most orcs worship Gruumsh because they love Gruumsh. They love to slaughter their enemies as the dogma had said. -There are lots of difficult things to explain about behavior in the realms. One of these is the orcs' love for bullying the weak, in comparison/similar to dwarves love for fighting while being drunk with a bottle of ale in their noses, in comparison/ similar to humans masturbating on their toilets while they picture Sune in their minds, in comparison/similar to elves wanting to live in the forest instead of the city, in comparison/similar to drow poking each others back with a dagger, in comparison/similar to dragons always sleeping on those glittering caves filled century stinked riches, in comparison/similar to most wizards never thinking about working out etc. etc. etc.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 01:56 PM	in comparison/similar to dwarves love for fighting while being drunk with a bottle of ale in their noses Try too hard not to base your opinions primarily on the writings of RAS on difference races of the Realms. :)
creyzi4zb12 05-31-07, 02:03 PM	-What are you talking about? Dwarves love to drink and fight. I've been playing NWN 2 and the first time I met a dwarf he was having a fist-fight in a bar. -Dwarves in Wc3 similar to FR love to drink and fight. I thought it was always mentioned on the dwarven lore. -Maybe you're talking about gold dwarves? But take note that majority of the dwarves in the realms are not gold dwarves.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 03:14 PM	No I agree with that! Dwarves love to drink and fight. That is why I love hanging out with them. :D
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:04 PM	-What are you talking about? Dwarves love to drink and fight. I've been playing NWN 2 and the first time I met a dwarf he was having a fist-fight in a bar. -Dwarves in Wc3 similar to FR love to drink and fight. I thought it was always mentioned on the dwarven lore. -Maybe you're talking about gold dwarves? But take note that majority of the dwarves in the realms are not gold dwarves. There is more explicit and well-detailed information regarding general Dwarven culture in Faerun, than RAS's novels and a non-canon video game. That's all I'm saying. :) Dwarves Deep and Races of Faerun, for instance. Dwarves who like to get overly drunk are the exception. In general, they're a more sever, stern lot. The Dwarves of FR seem more based on a more Germanic mindset, whereas most of the Dwarves seem to be a little more Scottish and/or Irish in Warcraft. Two very different cultures.
Tyberian 05-31-07, 05:30 PM	Dwarves are best wrestling women in a roped ring.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 06:36 PM	Dwarves are best wrestling women in a roped ring. I don't think I would try that! :P I would rather just get them drunk! Quickest way to their heart.
Tyberian 05-31-07, 06:39 PM	I don't think I would try that! :P I would rather just get them drunk! Quickest way to their heart. Sorry, I was thinking of midgets not dwarves.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 06:42 PM	I'm not quite sure how to take that. Are you suggesting that women are incapable of wrestling anything bigger then a midget? :confused: If so I'll take you on buddy!:fight!:
Tyberian 05-31-07, 06:46 PM	Oh quite the contrary. I was making a remark about the spectacle and that some strange people really do get into that stuff. Not me thought, the getting into that stuff that is, but I could probably be called strange. lol.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 06:50 PM	Are you a halfling?
Tyberian 05-31-07, 06:51 PM	not unless having a strange sense of humor is all that is required.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 07:09 PM	Two Orcs boarded a ship out of Lantan for Waterdeep. Just before they left port a short, little Elf got on and stood next to the Orcs. He kicked off his shoes, wiggled his toes and was settling in when the Orc furthest from him said, "I think I'll go and get a beer." "No problem," said the Elf. "I'll get it for you." While he was gone, the Orc picked up the Elf's shoe and spit in it. When the Elf returned with the beer, the other Orc said, "That looks good. I think I'll have one too." Again, the Elf obligingly went to fetch it, and while he was gone the other Orc picked up the other shoe and spat in it. The Elf returned with the beer, and they all settled in and enjoyed the trip to Waterdeep. As the boat was pulling into Waterdeep the Elf slipped his feet into his shoes and knew immediately what had happened. "How long must this go on?" he asked. "This enmity between our peoples..... this hatred... this animosity... this spitting in shoes and peeing in beers?"
Tyberian 05-31-07, 07:31 PM	Outstandiing! Outstanding! Outstanding! And I am even partial to the orc plight!
souldnce9 05-31-07, 07:34 PM	That is what we do in the Shadow guild when we aren't cunducting business. We sit around and tell jokes.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 08:20 PM	-Ah, good stuff. :)
zerodeviere 06-01-07, 12:25 PM	Orc plight? you mean them being Evil and Stupid? yep that is a shame, poor them.
GothicDan 06-01-07, 01:38 PM	Blame Gruumsh. He made them like that. We all know that's really why Corellon hates him.
creyzi4zb12 06-01-07, 08:34 PM	There is more explicit and well-detailed information regarding general Dwarven culture in Faerun, than RAS's novels and a non-canon video game. That's all I'm saying. :) Dwarves Deep and Races of Faerun, for instance. Dwarves who like to get overly drunk are the exception. In general, they're a more sever, stern lot. The Dwarves of FR seem more based on a more Germanic mindset, whereas most of the Dwarves seem to be a little more Scottish and/or Irish in Warcraft. Two very different cultures. Nope never read those things before. I merely base it on General lore and Common sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarves like wiki for example. It says that idea of dwarves in DnD were gathered from Norse Mythology. Those guys in norway love to drink, have you ever heard of the infamous "trøndere", before? If not drinking, what about mining. Okay, change the drinking to mining and smithing. I'm sure that's always a general dwarven culture.
GothicDan 06-01-07, 09:54 PM	I'm actually pretty well-learned in Germanic and Scandinavian myth and culture. And Tolkien's Dwarves are equal parts Hebrew and Scandinavian - their language is largely based on Hebrew. That being said - don't use the FR Wiki. It's bad.
ancalimohtar 06-02-07, 01:49 AM	GothicDan, I don't see much disagreement between us at this point. I would continue the discussion, except Karsus down here is demanding my attention with absurd arguments. Begging your forgiveness. Actually, I don't. That's the problem. Can you explain to me the seismological reason why the Sunset Mts. and the Stormhorns exist in such a peculiar manner? On the other hand, I can explain why the Himalayas exist, why the Rockies exist, why the Andes exist. I mean, are you SERIOUSLY arguing that the geography of the Realms is realistic? Don't try to win an argument here. Be honest. Do you think a professor in Geosciences would find it believable?-So, you admit that you don’t know the specifics, but yet, you’ll claim that they are mired with non-realistic notions. Only Ed Greenwood knows the specifics, in all likelihood, as these kinds of details seem like some of those things that don’t have had a place to be printed, nor does it look like it ever will. Anyway, without having any of that information in front of you, how can you say that the placement of said mountains and mountain rages already makes little sense? You don’t know the first thing about the subject. That’s like claiming the jury in any given court case made the wrong decision, without actually having the transcript, or any of the other information in front of you to reference.I cannot believe you ignored the rest of the text I quoted and responded to a MISINTERPRETED first line. Unbelievable. You took the time to type out all that crap--to attack a straw man. Learn a little about mountains and plate tectonics. And then look at the map of Faerun. There is almost no situation that could have created those mountain ranges. Almost zero. Of course, magical causes are always present, but that's comical. Here, maybe this will help you understand the way I see it. You know about World of Warcraft, right? It has its own lore, of course. Here's the map of the playable planet, so far: http://mapwow.com/ Look at the mountain ranges. Look how they're constructed specifically to keep lower level players in lower level zones, and prevent high-level characters from easily crossing over into lower level zones. FR's mountains are similarly ridiculous, just to a less egregious degree, and not toward the same purpose. -As for the geography of the Realms as a whole, which was not what we were talking about, but are talking about now, yes, I think it makes sense, for a world where magic is applied liberally. What a professor of geosciences says of not matters little, because Abeir-Toril is not the Earth, and the Earth is not Abeir-Toril. The thoughts of professor at geosciences would matter, in this situation, as much as a professor of geosciences from Krypton, Coruscant, and Krynn. Abeir-Toril is it’s own unique world, with it’s own unique phenomena.You're actually just rationalizing this. You're rationalizing that because Abeir-Toril is not Earth and does not exist within our laws of physics, the two have no obligation to share any common properties. This is true. But this is also stupid. Abeir-Toril is modeled after Earth--there's gravity, there's an atmosphere, the same minerals in similar proportions in the soil, there are the same types of animals, the same types of plants (look ma, deciduous and evergreen forests, separated just like in real life!), humans, and then a bunch of additional creatures and magic. We are never told, but we can assume that Abeir-Toril, while larger, also has plate tectonics, and thus, mountains. Or, you know, you could argue that it's all horse poo and Aberi-Toril's mountains were the cause of gibberlings pooing in mass quantities. -They worship Gruumsh because their fathers worshipper Gruumsh, and their fathers before them worshipped Gruumsh. Furthermore, Gruumsh created the Orcish race, and as I said before, Orcish society is governed by Orc Shaman and Clerics dedicated to Gruumsh. If someone grows up in a hippie commune, you expect them to be money-loving capitalists when they leave?Alright, so orcs are caught in a perpetual cycle of violence and hatred, and in their millennia of fractured civilization, no tribe ever turned from Gruumsh and survived. Not one single leader has evolved his tribe socially. Not one tribe has evolved socially, period. That is the definition of unrealistic. -Because it irks me when random people, such as you, write off any general or specific details of the setting as incorrect, and/or unrealistic when: A) Not all of the information about said subject is even available to us. B) You simply don’t understand it, and in turn, believe that it makes “no sense”. C) People have a vendetta against the setting, for whatever the reason, and look for every little opportunity to bash it, and try to rip it apart.B is a silly, childish sort of argument. I'll ignore it for both our sakes. A is unnecessary. We are not doing a mathematical proof. I understand it is not logically inconsistent that certain things are the way they are; this is because there could be physical laws in the FR universe that haven't been mentioned that make everything work, mathematically. But do you really think that's the case? Ed has these screwy physics all planned out, and all of those laws perfectly shaped Faerun into what it is now? None of that could be because he's just a frickin human being, who isn't perfect, and drew the map in some pretty unrealistic ways for dramatic expediency? C is really dumb. I actually love the FR, and don't play any other setting. That you are knee-jerk responding with antagonistic arguments because you have incorrectly prejudged my beliefs is indicative of what I've found so far on this board. I come from the CO board, and am quite appalled at people's knee-jerk bristling against random people who have differing opinions. As shown on the "The Chosen are hillbillies" thread, whatever the title is.
souldnce9 06-02-07, 05:23 AM	Those mountains are there because the Gods deemed it so! Science has no place in a world that was actually created by Gods (unlike our own!! :smirk: )! The God's drew the map, and liked it! And so made it reality! That makes perfect sense to me! Do not bring your science and logic to try and explain my world! :P
creyzi4zb12 06-02-07, 10:43 AM	Actually orcs have improved quite a bit. Many of their greatX*grandsons have made it through history for being great warlords. Like Vraak, Obould etc. -Honestly, I don't get it why you guys don't like orcs and goblins. Their cute and famous. If you'd ask me, I think orcs are now racing up against the dwarves in the fame business nowadays. You don't see orc races in WC3, you don't see dwarves in warhammer, you don't get to see websites such as www.orkworld.com. I wouldn't be surprised if chewbaca's idea was gathered from them.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:29 AM	-Honestly, I don't get it why you guys don't like orcs and goblins. Why I don't like orcs: they're ugly, stupid, smelly, potentially disease-carrying, overly violent, brutal, cruel, have no tradition of arcane magic, and are chaotic and evil. I actually like goblins slightly more. And hobgoblins.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:31 AM	GothicDan, I don't see much disagreement between us at this point. I would continue the discussion, except Karsus down here is demanding my attention with absurd arguments. Begging your forgiveness. Of course. I'll let you and LK go at it. :)
Stigger 06-02-07, 12:10 PM	Those mountains are there because the Gods deemed it so! Science has no place in a world that was actually created by Gods (unlike our own!! :smirk: )! The God's drew the map, and liked it! And so made it reality! That makes perfect sense to me! Do not bring your science and logic to try and explain my world! :P That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 12:56 PM	I'll let you and LK go at it. :) hey now
Zevox 06-02-07, 01:07 PM	Why I don't like orcs: they're ugly, stupid, smelly, potentially disease-carrying, overly violent, brutal, cruel, have no tradition of arcane magic, and are chaotic and evil. I actually like goblins slightly more. And hobgoblins. Take ugly out of the equation (don't care about how they look myself), and that accounts for my opinion too. Ditto on the latter. Goblins, Hobgobs, even Kobolds are better than Orcs from where I'm sitting. Zevox
The Ubbergeek 06-02-07, 01:41 PM	I prefer orcs - the Warcraft and all legacy. The greenskins are archetypal vilains/bad boys... *shrugs*
GothicDan 06-02-07, 06:08 PM	Nevermind the fact that Warcraft Orcs are nearly nothing like Faerunian Orcs, of course. I prefer Warcraft Orcs vastly to the ones as portrayed in D&D. A native shamanistic culture overtaken by demonic worship is MUCH cooler than the Orcish Pantheon. hey now Bow chicka bow bow.
ancalimohtar 06-02-07, 10:46 PM	That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.And that's how everybody should feel about the matter. Lord Karsus, on the other hand, feels the need to scientifically justify the geography of the Realms. If you try to, it falls apart. But that's not its purpose!
GothicDan 06-02-07, 10:50 PM	Scientifically, I'd definitely say, no. I don't think Ed ever wanted it to be 'perfect' from a scientific point of view. Magic makes pretty much anything possible. Like deserts in the northern hemisphere and upside floating mountains. ;)
ancalimohtar 06-02-07, 11:03 PM	Nevermind the fact that Warcraft Orcs are nearly nothing like Faerunian Orcs, of course. I prefer Warcraft Orcs vastly to the ones as portrayed in D&D. A native shamanistic culture overtaken by demonic worship is MUCH cooler than the Orcish Pantheon.Blizzard is the master of taking concepts pioneered by other people and refining them to be amazingly successful consumer products. The Warcraft universe is completely derivative. Utterly. But it's great. It's fun, people think it's awesome, it sells. The WOW mechanics were completely derivative. But they took the classic MMO formula, took out the undesirable parts based on popular consensus (rather than by the gaming elite), made everything exactly a business ought to make it--simplified down to the common denominator. And that's why so many people pay for it. Brilliant. Diablo's lore is derivative to the point of almost being farcical. But it's great. It resonates with casual fantasy fans. Their games are also super polished and very responsive. Starcraft, Diablo II, I mean if you think about it, almost every one of their games were blockbuster hits, and the ones that weren't had sequels that were.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:28 PM	Oddly enough, the only things I really enjoyed were WC 1-3... But I'm not a big fan of any video game, realy. Well, Planescape: Torment blew my mind, but so far everything else has been a disappointment.
Lord Karsus 06-02-07, 11:56 PM	-Dan, I’ll continue our conversation later. Ancalimohtar down here is demanding my attention with absurd arguments. And that's how everybody should feel about the matter. Lord Karsus, on the other hand, feels the need to scientifically justify the geography of the Realms. If you try to, it falls apart. But that's not its purpose! -It’s quite the contrary, actually. You are the one who feels that the geography needs to be scientifically justified in the first place. I was the one who said that, based on the world that Abeir-Toril is, I see no major faults with the geography that makes up Faerûn. I cannot believe you ignored the rest of the text I quoted and responded to a MISINTERPRETED first line. Unbelievable. You took the time to type out all that crap--to attack a straw man. Learn a little about mountains and plate tectonics. And then look at the map of Faerun. There is almost no situation that could have created those mountain ranges. Almost zero. Of course, magical causes are always present, but that's comical. Here, maybe this will help you understand the way I see it. You know about World of Warcraft, right? It has its own lore, of course. Here's the map of the playable planet, so far: http://mapwow.com/ Look at the mountain ranges. Look how they're constructed specifically to keep lower level players in lower level zones, and prevent high-level characters from easily crossing over into lower level zones. FR's mountains are similarly ridiculous, just to a less egregious degree, and not toward the same purpose. -Like I said earlier, you mentioned that the mountains that “liberally pepper the landscape for no real seismological reason”. I sarcastically said, “You seem to know so much about them”, them being the mountain ranges in Faerûn that don’t belong. “Share with us the reasons why specific mountains and mountain ranges in Faerûn exist”. You then said that you couldn’t. My point is that since you don’t have all of the information about this issue- and none of us do, for that matter- how can you be so certain that the mountains don’t conform to the notion of realistic explanation? Please, explain to me how the tectonic plates on Abeir-Toril are lined up? Was there ever an ice age, or perhaps a great flood that helped shape said mountains? -I don’t know exactly what World of Warcraft is…I believe it’s a computer game, but either way, I’ve never played it. All I know is that I recall something about Goblins that fly around in balloons, throwing bombs. With that in mind, I don’t necessarily know that World of Warcraft goes into the same kind of…detail and internal consistency as the Forgotten Realms. You're actually just rationalizing this. You're rationalizing that because Abeir-Toril is not Earth and does not exist within our laws of physics, the two have no obligation to share any common properties. This is true. But this is also stupid. Abeir-Toril is modeled after Earth--there's gravity, there's an atmosphere, the same minerals in similar proportions in the soil, there are the same types of animals, the same types of plants (look ma, deciduous and evergreen forests, separated just like in real life!), humans, and then a bunch of additional creatures and magic. We are never told, but we can assume that Abeir-Toril, while larger, also has plate tectonics, and thus, mountains. Or, you know, you could argue that it's all horse poo and Aberi-Toril's mountains were the cause of gibberlings pooing in mass quantities. -Sure, why not? Again, Abeir-Toril is not Earth. We are talking about a place where magic is quite real, and it is quite prevalent, in many ways. Alright, so orcs are caught in a perpetual cycle of violence and hatred, and in their millennia of fractured civilization, no tribe ever turned from Gruumsh and survived. Not one single leader has evolved his tribe socially. Not one tribe has evolved socially, period. That is the definition of unrealistic. -There have been Orc tribes that “escaped” the vicious cycle of death, destruction, killing and what not. The Ondonti (Sp?) Orcs are one such example. But, just as Drizzt Do’Urden does not represent the Drow race, as a whole, these Orcs do not represent the Orcish race, as a whole. The Clergy of Gruumsh have a strangle hold on Orcish society, just like the Catholic Church used to have a strangle hold on European society. How many years did it take for social Enlightenment? And, even then, the Church’s grip on Europe was only weakened, and not completely removed. The Catholic Church is still a…”force” in the world, albeit a lot weaker than in the past. B is a silly, childish sort of argument. I'll ignore it for both our sakes. -It might be childish and silly, but that does not lessen the truth of the statement. Like Faraer said before, “If one doesn't, with partial information, understand how something works, it's possible that the thing doesn't make sense. But the more sensible, logical conclusion is 'I don't understand'.” A is unnecessary. We are not doing a mathematical proof. I understand it is not logically inconsistent that certain things are the way they are; this is because there could be physical laws in the FR universe that haven't been mentioned that make everything work, mathematically. But do you really think that's the case? Ed has these screwy physics all planned out, and all of those laws perfectly shaped Faerun into what it is now? None of that could be because he's just a frickin human being, who isn't perfect, and drew the map in some pretty unrealistic ways for dramatic expediency? -Not only is it necessary, but it is the most logical conclusion. As I said earlier about the question of mountain ranges and their placement, perhaps there was some kind of great flood that shaped many of the mountains that dot the landscape. Because there are no records, this is something only Ed might know. Perhaps there was an ice age that, again, could have inflected the placement of mountains. Again, something only Ed might know. I’m not saying that this is the case- I’m pretty sure he’s not a master of geophysics. But, until you, me, and the rest of us know the “entire picture”, you can’t just write something off as unrealistic, incorrect, or whatever other word that can be used to convey the idea. C is really dumb. I actually love the FR, and don't play any other setting. That you are knee-jerk responding with antagonistic arguments because you have incorrectly prejudged my beliefs is indicative of what I've found so far on this board. I come from the CO board, and am quite appalled at people's knee-jerk bristling against random people who have differing opinions. As shown on the "The Chosen are hillbillies" thread, whatever the title is. -Many people seem to get a deranged sense of pride and satisfaction when they attack and bash others’ campaign settings. Many people who play in Eberron get this strange sense of satisfaction when attacking the Forgotten Realms. From what I’ve seen, a smaller, but still large amount of people who play in the Forgotten Realms get this sense of satisfaction attacking Eberron. Adding Planescape, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, and all of the others into the mix makes things even more chaotic. -Also, note that I am, at times, quite caustic and sarcastic in my responses towards you because of your use of causticity and sarcasm in your responses towards me, and others. -Anyway, on these boards, we value logical opinions that are based on some degree of fact. For example, if someone said that Elminster is some kind of characterization of Ed Greenwood, and then provided factual examples of similarities between the two, they would have a valid point. Then, someone would mention how Ed Greenwood denied this, when asked about it. Then, a third person mentions that Ed could have been lying, and we are back to square one. But, since the OP provided actual, factual examples to support his line of reasoning, the argument is valid, and it is up to the individual to decide. Hence, this was the problem in the “The Chosen are Inbred Hillbillies” thread- these kinds of actual, factual examples were far in-between. -This is neither here nor there, but your argument that many features of the Realms are unrealistic are mostly valid. You’ve provided evidence to support what you’ve been saying, overall. The problem, as I mentioned, is that there may or may not be information that discredits a lot of what you are saying, that just isn’t available to us. -And, ironically enough, if you go to Candlekeep, someone recently asked Ed a question about a few different mountains and mountain ranges on Faerûn.
creyzi4zb12 06-03-07, 08:57 AM	Take ugly out of the equation (don't care about how they look myself), and that accounts for my opinion too. Ditto on the latter. Goblins, Hobgobs, even Kobolds are better than Orcs from where I'm sitting. Zevox Yes, orcs aren't ugly. They're cute. -I have to disagree however. Orcs are bigger and stronger than them little critters, they'd squash all of those creeps to a pulp. I heard that orcs are allied with them because they bully them.
Zevox 06-03-07, 12:59 PM	Yes, orcs aren't ugly. They're cute. :uh-huh: ...in no world that I've ever seen - not FR, not Greyhawk, not Eberron, not Arda - would that statement be true. -I have to disagree however. Orcs are bigger and stronger than them little critters, they'd squash all of those creeps to a pulp. Aye, because brute force is all they have, and all they know. That was one of the reasons I don't like them, remember? I heard that orcs are allied with them because they bully them. ...allied with them? Orcs are rarely even allied with fellow Orc tribes, much less with other races. And in any event, an alliance by bullying wouldn't be an alliance, it would be slavery. Zevox
Lord_Steve 06-03-07, 03:24 PM	:uh-huh: ...in no world that I've ever seen - not FR, not Greyhawk, not Eberron, not Arda - would that statement be true. Zevox Obviously you havent met Beastess yet...*wink wink*
Lord_Steve 06-03-07, 03:27 PM	- -I don’t know exactly what World of Warcraft is…I believe it’s a computer game, but either way, I’ve never played it. All I know is that I recall something about Goblins that fly around in balloons, throwing bombs. With that in mind, I don’t necessarily know that World of Warcraft goes into the same kind of…detail and internal consistency as the Forgotten Realms. Yes it's a computer game, yup goblins flying around in Zepplins and dropping bombs, and yes, it's lore isnt nearly as detailed and beautifully crafted as the Forgotten Realms but it's a good game anyways.
Faraer 06-03-07, 04:28 PM	Ancalimohtar, You're wrong to assume the Realms works the way our world does, that it's an alternate Earth with a particular kind of magic added. For instance, things fall down there not because of gravity as we understand it, but because (in the published setting) of the physics of Spelljammer. It would be anomalous ('comical', 'ridiculous'?) if plate tectonics did directly apply, given that this is sword and sorcery, not hard science fiction. And the reason it's foolish to assume that Ed hasn't worked out the underlying processes (though obviously not mathematically!) is that it would be against precedent. As we've progressively found out more about the Realms and how it works -- excepting patches made for ill-considered decisions -- it becomes a more comprehensible, more beautiful self-entangled whole.
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 06:33 PM	Ancalimohtar, You're wrong to assume the Realms works the way our world does, that it's an alternate Earth with a particular kind of magic added. For instance, things fall down there not because of gravity as we understand it, but because (in the published setting) of the physics of Spelljammer. It would be anomalous ('comical', 'ridiculous'?) if plate tectonics did directly apply, given that this is sword and sorcery, not hard science fiction. And the reason it's foolish to assume that Ed hasn't worked out the underlying processes (though obviously not mathematically!) is that it would be against precedent. As we've progressively found out more about the Realms and how it works -- excepting patches made for ill-considered decisions -- it becomes a more comprehensible, more beautiful self-entangled whole. -You summed that up so eloquently. Yes it's a computer game, yup goblins flying around in Zepplins and dropping bombs, and yes, it's lore isnt nearly as detailed and beautifully crafted as the Forgotten Realms but it's a good game anyways. -I have a slow modem, so I'm not priivy to any online games. :uh-huh: ...in no world that I've ever seen - not FR, not Greyhawk, not Eberron, not Arda - would that statement be true. -Zevox, this is Crayzi we're talking about here...;)
Faraer 06-03-07, 07:38 PM	Equally, the Realms was emphatically not designed all at once, from the top down. It accreted, from its start as juvenilia, and many times -- both before and after the TSR purchase -- unexplained and apparently disparate ideas have been retroactively linked and explained. Much of what we've learned about the Realms in the last 20 years was written on the spot, much had been worked out long before, we often don't know which. The piecemeal accumulation is the source of much of its charm, replicating the oddities and exceptions which make it a believably real, explorable idea and not an overrationalized, diagrammatic theory. I think its powerful though certainly imperfect coherence is quite remarkable given the amassed weight.
ancalimohtar 06-04-07, 04:51 AM	-Dan, I’ll continue our conversation later. Ancalimohtar down here is demanding my attention with absurd arguments.It doesn't help your argument to rely on a very tired, very juvenile framework of mockery by mimicry. If facts are so important, why resort to childish "nanny nanny boo boo"s? It’s quite the contrary, actually. You are the one who feels that the geography needs to be scientifically justified in the first place. I was the one who said that, based on the world that Abeir-Toril is, I see no major faults with the geography that makes up Faerûn.Except I have made, since the very beginning, these points: 1) that Faerun is unrealistic, 2) that this does not matter, because it's purpose is not to be scientifically realistic, but rather to be charming and fun. You, on the other hand, disagreed and your main point has been, all along, 1) "believable" must be redefined in the context of a magical land of fairies and elves. 2) Scientifically, the Realms is just as believable, or would be, were we given knowledge of its basic physics and underlying laws. That, is revisionist silliness. Saying "Harry Potter is completely realistic... we just can't justify all the silliness because JK Rowling hasn't given us all the explanations yet!" Come on. It's unrealistic because it's unrealistic. Period. -Like I said earlier, you mentioned that the mountains that “liberally pepper the landscape for no real seismological reason”. I sarcastically said, “You seem to know so much about them”, them being the mountain ranges in Faerûn that don’t belong. “Share with us the reasons why specific mountains and mountain ranges in Faerûn exist”. You then said that you couldn’t. My point is that since you don’t have all of the information about this issue- and none of us do, for that matter- how can you be so certain that the mountains don’t conform to the notion of realistic explanation?This is exactly my point. There is no information given for the mountains' origins, so you automatically assume that they'd be great reasons. Were they given. But... they're not. Please, explain to me how the tectonic plates on Abeir-Toril are lined up? Was there ever an ice age, or perhaps a great flood that helped shape said mountains?Floods and ice ages have very little to do with tectonic activity. -I don’t know exactly what World of Warcraft is…I believe it’s a computer game, but either way, I’ve never played it. All I know is that I recall something about Goblins that fly around in balloons, throwing bombs. With that in mind, I don’t necessarily know that World of Warcraft goes into the same kind of…detail and internal consistency as the Forgotten Realms.Look at the link. Look at it. Look at the mountains. Don't dismiss my points because of you don't like the idea of goblins on airships throwing grenades (am I mistaken, or do goblins exist in the Realms, along with airships, firearms, and explosives?) In any case, your dismissal of Warcraft is worse than any dismissal I could have given the Realms. How do you know World of Warcraft's lore has no internal consistency? In fact, it has MORE consistency, because it was created by fewer people within a shorter time frame for the express purpose of making sense in one product. They have retconned a few things to make sense with Warcraft I and II, but it's much more consistent than the Realms, trust me. -Sure, why not? Again, Abeir-Toril is not Earth. We are talking about a place where magic is quite real, and it is quite prevalent, in many ways.Just to refresh your memory, you "sure, why not"ed to this: "Aberi-Toril's mountains were the cause of gibberlings pooing in mass quantities." That makes the Realms very believable and consistent. -There have been Orc tribes that “escaped” the vicious cycle of death, destruction, killing and what not. The Ondonti (Sp?) Orcs are one such example. But, just as Drizzt Do’Urden does not represent the Drow race, as a whole, these Orcs do not represent the Orcish race, as a whole. The Clergy of Gruumsh have a strangle hold on Orcish society, just like the Catholic Church used to have a strangle hold on European society. How many years did it take for social Enlightenment? And, even then, the Church’s grip on Europe was only weakened, and not completely removed. The Catholic Church is still a…”force” in the world, albeit a lot weaker than in the past.Except the Catholic church has been around for less than two thousand years, and it's much weaker today than it used to be. Gruumsh and his orc worshippers have been around for easily ten times that. And they act the same, still. -It might be childish and silly, but that does not lessen the truth of the statement. Like Faraer said before, “If one doesn't, with partial information, understand how something works, it's possible that the thing doesn't make sense. But the more sensible, logical conclusion is 'I don't understand'.”No. You are making a disingenuous argument. You are turning this discussion into "You don't know what you're talking about" instead of making actual arguments. I could say the same. You don't know what you're talking about. See how silly and childish that is? That's an ad hominem. -Many people seem to get a deranged sense of pride and satisfaction when they attack and bash others’ campaign settings. Many people who play in Eberron get this strange sense of satisfaction when attacking the Forgotten Realms. From what I’ve seen, a smaller, but still large amount of people who play in the Forgotten Realms get this sense of satisfaction attacking Eberron. Adding Planescape, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, and all of the others into the mix makes things even more chaotic.That is not me, and has nothing to do with me. Presuming such and starting an argument because of such is disrespectful. -Not only is it necessary, but it is the most logical conclusion. As I said earlier about the question of mountain ranges and their placement, perhaps there was some kind of great flood that shaped many of the mountains that dot the landscape. Because there are no records, this is something only Ed might know. Perhaps there was an ice age that, again, could have inflected the placement of mountains. Again, something only Ed might know. I’m not saying that this is the case- I’m pretty sure he’s not a master of geophysics. But, until you, me, and the rest of us know the “entire picture”, you can’t just write something off as unrealistic, incorrect, or whatever other word that can be used to convey the idea.The burden of proof is on YOU to provide explanations as to why these mountains formed. Lacking these, the mountains are unrealistic. Look, forget all I said above. Forget it. Don't quote it, it doesn't matter. Just respond to this: It is conceivable that Ed could (or has already) come up with a reason for exactly why the mountains and geography is the way it is. Perfectly possible, in the realm of logic. Therefore, I am not saying that I have a hard-lock on a mathematical proof of "Realms are unrealistic." Instead, I am appealing to your understanding of how the real world works, and your understanding of the term "unrealistic." Do you seriously, seriously believe that Ed has everything mapped out, and gave believable, realistic reasons for why the mountains are placed the way they are? I mean, imagine you're meeting with a respected geoscientist who is also a fan of the Realms, and knows more than you about the setting. If you had to guess, with a LOT of money on the line, would you say he thinks the geography is realistic, or not?
Soltares 06-04-07, 05:13 AM	Wait, the argument here is that the World of Warcraft maps are more realistic than the Realms ones? The same World of Warcraft where you can be walking along in a blistering lifeless desert and go down a little path and be in the middle of a vast swamp? The one with floating islands? The one with a blasted superheated volcanic region abutting an arctic forest? 'Cause that's just terribly funny. I don't think Ed Greenwood is a geologist, and I don't believe in the logic that everything he's ever said or thought is automatically deep, profound and perfect in every way, but I do believe that if one were to present him with some sort of geographical inconsistency, he'd have an answer for it tout suite. He's pretty damn smart, and it's not like the Realms aren't *crawling* with magical events that reshaped the geography in the distant past. It's actually his strongest point, being able to take one teensy little irrelevant seeming detail and building upon it until it not only makes sense, but is interesting and thematic and tied into the setting. I'd need more evidence of the Realms geography 'not making sense' than a poster on a message board telling me that he doesn't like it. 'Cause I don't like lots of things in the real world, and not a few people, but apparently they 'make sense' enough to exist anyway. The burden of proof is on YOU to provide explanations as to why these mountains formed. Lacking these, the mountains are unrealistic. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that Jar-Jar Binks didn't invent Snapple. 'Cause I said so, and I don't need to prove anything outrageous I say. Nyah-nyah!
Faraer 06-04-07, 12:39 PM	Do you seriously, seriously believe that Ed has everything mapped out, and gave believable, realistic reasons for why the mountains are placed the way they are?Believable yes, realistic no. You're the only one conflating the two, talking about this red herring of 'realism', and thinking that Torilian mountains should work according to Earth geology. And as I said before, you can find out the answer to your question any time you want.
The Ubbergeek 06-04-07, 01:08 PM	Thr problem with those geological (as any other scientifical) debates is that they tend to ignorate the factor of the 'Magic Force' and the gods and all.... The Weave/Mana is like a 5th universal force, throwing a wrench in the lot.
MarkusTay63 06-04-07, 01:51 PM	The mountain ranges are a minor point to me - a good deal of the rivers also run incorrectly, and don't even get me started on all of the magically created deserts (are there ANY real ones?) :uh-huh: As much as I hate to disagree with a friend of mine, the Realms are pure fantasy, which is exactly what Ed intended. I've been addicted to maps since I was about 5 or 6, and I remember asking for an Atlas when I was thirteen for my Birthday. I have always loved maps, and have been scribbling my own, for as long as I can remember, and after awhile you get the feel of how things 'should be'. I'm no geologist, by any stretch of the imagination, but there are certain conventions that must be followed for a naturally developing planet. However, in a magical world anything is possible, so there need not be any realistic reason why a certain piece of geography is the way it is. Oh, and BTW, Orcs and Goblins ARE cute. :P But then again, I also enjoy surgery videos. ;)
The Ubbergeek 06-04-07, 04:15 PM	Well, it's not D&D, but you can find actually cute orc girls arts for the Warcraft univers, ehehehehhe...
Stigger 06-04-07, 04:54 PM	Wasn't one of those signs of archmage activity noted specifically as rivers being diverted and mountain ranges being altered... which could go a long way to explain a few things within the context of Faerun.
Tyberian 06-04-07, 05:19 PM	About all the map discussion and such, it reminds me of one of the earlier MST 3000 episodes I watched. In it, when all the arguing about the movies got too heated and involved, one of the cast said- relax, it's only a movie. I believe, I've heard a couple similar quotes earlier on in the thread though. But that's ok, whatever floats your boat. But I have a question about orcs. Unless I am mistaken, in the geography section to FRCS, it mentions that all the numerous orc and humanoid tribes are too many to count and are notincluded in the populations listed. But in the savage frontier, orcs are listed as 20% of the population. Does that mean in all those settlements, villages, and small farms, one out of every five people is an orc? This does not include the half-orc population of 8%. Since the books are canon, how come no book has ever portrayed it this way? Finally,in the FRPG Vaasa orcs and half-orcs are listed as worshipping the orc pantheon. What are the prevalent deities among Palischuk (spelling?) half-orcs who the FRCS explicitly states has befriended local humans and orcs?
Tyberian 06-04-07, 06:28 PM	Just a bump. Those previous questions have been bugging me for a while now. Just looking for some info.
Stigger 06-04-07, 07:54 PM	Hmmm... never noticed that in the SF entry. Gotta go look that one up. Not a clue about the worship stuff though.
souldnce9 06-04-07, 08:02 PM	I am not a geologist, but I love geology and have taken a few classes. I can agree, if we are using earth as an example, the mountain ranges in Toril do not make a lick of sense and would not form in such a way. However as I have said before, and it seems ancalimohtar and LK seem to be arguing the same point, Toril is magical (and yes fantasy) and so within that realm they make perfect, beautiful, magical sense. So please can we move on? 'Cause even though you two say that you love the realms you are tearing it apart! and that makes me very sad. :weep: As for orcs, I believe their popularity has been moving up thanks to World of War Craft. I think that is why we see more and more support for orc civilization in the realms. As for the orcs changing from the stupid mountain creatures. I think that is where RAS is headed with that whole war thing. We'll just have to wait for the next books to find out though won't we? :D If king Obauld does start a civilized orc kingdom, that doesn't mean that there won't be plenty of orcs to kill outside his kingdom.
DorianGraildark 06-04-07, 08:06 PM	All this talk of hard science in a fantasy setting is just encouraging me to continue my attempts to give a physicist friend of mine an apoplexy with my homebrew campaign worlds astrophysics. ''Yes Simon Thurans sun and moon rotate around the vast floating disc of rock that is Thuran more or less exactly opposite each other at a totally unchanging rate. No that doesnt affect the worlds gravity in any way shape or form....'' *Cackle*
GothicDan 06-04-07, 10:40 PM	Speaking as a physicist, I have to say that doesn't bother me in the least... But I don't care much for applying total realistic physics to alternate fantasy settings. To me, physics in a fantasy setting SHOULD deviate.
Stigger 06-05-07, 02:18 AM	True... brings up too many nightmares from an abortive attempt at trying to figure out that old game Phoenix Command's combat and damage system. That proved to me a long time ago that there was such a thing as trying to make something too realistic... yay for unrealistic but reasonable abstractions!
creyzi4zb12 06-07-07, 05:25 AM	But I have a question about orcs. Unless I am mistaken, in the geography section to FRCS, it mentions that all the numerous orc and humanoid tribes are too many to count and are notincluded in the populations listed. But in the savage frontier, orcs are listed as 20% of the population. Does that mean in all those settlements, villages, and small farms, one out of every five people is an orc? This does not include the half-orc population of 8%. Since the books are canon, how come no book has ever portrayed it this way? Maybe that's what makes the orcs so powerful. They're everywhere. No matter how many fireballs you'd cast to burn them to oblivion they won't be stopped in attacking. You'd run out of casting points before you even kill 0.0000000001/9999999999999 of them. (now the numbers are exaggerated, but yeah, it still sums up to my point)
captaincarot 06-07-07, 06:33 AM	the mountains may not be in a convenient place techtonically speaking, but they're in a damned fine place as far as where the orcs and dwarves want to live. so maybe they had them moved there in the past.
Stigger 06-07-07, 06:46 AM	Maybe that's what makes the orcs so powerful. They're everywhere. No matter how many fireballs you'd cast to burn them to oblivion they won't be stopped in attacking. You'd run out of casting points before you even kill 0.0000000001/9999999999999 of them. (now the numbers are exaggerated, but yeah, it still sums up to my point) Nah, get a couple of epic casters together and it wouldn't take all that long if they were really determined to wipe the little buggers out. Just envision a few Compel seed spells aimed at big Chromatic dragons telling them to eat any orcs they could find, extend the duration to something absurd, and the population would be thinned out in a hurry, for the trouble of only a couple of spell slots. ;)
Khaelieth 06-07-07, 07:25 PM	Faerûn orcs over Warcraft orcs any day. Orcs and cunning, honourless creatures, not "misunderstood" creatures that shout with a Japanse dialect just because they've got a samurai class. I've played Warcraft from Warcraft I, where they were EVIL. Much cooler orcs. Anyway, I don't play Warcraft as it's just too unrealistic. Orc biceps are as broad as their abdomens. They wield weapons bigger than friggin' catapults. They've got aliens with pokémon heraldry. You cannot loot your enemies. Pooh.