| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| ExtinctionBeta09-25-07, 08:40 PM | Ao: Overgod Akadi (Neutral) Goddess of elemental air, movement, speed, flying creatures Teylas (aspect of Akadi): God of sky and storms for the Horde[3] Bane: God of strife, hatred, tyranny, fear Chauntea (also called Bhalla[4] and Jannath[5]): Goddess of agriculture, farmers, gardeners, summer Cyric (possibly also called N'asr[5]): God of murder, lies, intrigue(no longer), deception, illusion Grumbar: God of elemental earth, solidity, changelessness, oaths Etugen (aspect of Grumbar): Goddess of the earth, herds, and pastures for the Horde[3] Istishia: God of elemental water, purification, wetness Kelemvor (possibly also called N'asr[5]): God of death, the dead Kossuth: God of elemental fire, purification through fire Lathander: God of spring, dawn, birth, youth, vitality, athletics Mystra (also called Hidden One[4]): Goddess of magic, spells, the Weave Oghma (also called Curna[6]): God of knowledge, invention, inspiration, bards Shar: Goddess of dark, night, loss, forgetfulness, unrevealed secrets, caverns, dungeons, the Underdark Silvanus: God of wild nature, druids Sune: Goddess of beauty, love, passion Talos (also called Bhaelros and Kozah[5]): God of storms, destruction, rebellion, conflagrations, earthquakes, vortices Tempus: God of war, battle, warriors Tyr: God of justice Ubtao: God of creation, jungles, Chult, the Chultans, dinosaurs Intermediate deities Beshaba ( Goddess of random mischief, misfortune, bad luck, accidents Gond (also called Zionel[6]): God of artifice, craft, construction, smithwork Helm: God of guardians, protectors, protection Ilmater: God of endurance, suffering, martyrdom, perseverance Lolth: Goddess of Drow, Spiders, Darkness, and Assassination Mielikki: Goddess of forests, forest creatures, rangers, dryads, autumn Selūne (also called Bright Nydra,[7] Elah,[5] and Lucha[6]): Goddess of the moon, stars, navigation, prophecy, questers, good and neutral lycanthropes Tymora: Goddess of good fortune, skill, victory, adventurers Umberlee: Goddess of oceans, currents, waves, sea winds Lesser deities Auril: Goddess of cold, winter Azuth: God of wizards, mages, spellcasters in general Deneir: God of glyphs, images, literature, scribes, cartography Eldath: Goddess of quiet places, springs, pools, peace, waterfalls Lliira: Goddess of joy, happiness, dance, festivals, freedom, liberty Loviatar: Goddess of pain, hurt, agony, torment, suffering, torture Malar: God of hunters, stalking, bloodlust, evil lycanthropes Mask: God of thieves, thievery, shadows, regained intrigue Milil: God of poetry, song, eloquence Shaundakul: God of travel, exploration, caravans, portals Talona: Goddess of disease, poison Sss'thasine'ss (aspect of Talona): venomous creatures[8] Tiamat: Goddess of evil dragons, evil reptiles, greed, Chessenta Torm: God of duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins Waukeen: Goddess of trade, money, wealth Demideities Finder Wyvernspur: God of the cycle of life, transformation of art, saurials Garagos (also called Targus[5]): God of war, skill-at-arms, destruction, plunder Gargauth: God of betrayal, cruelty, political corruption, powerbrokers Gwaeron Windstrom: God of tracking, rangers of the North Hoar (also called Assuran): God of revenge, retribution, poetic justice Jergal: God of fatalism, proper burial, guardian of tombs Lurue: Goddess of talking beasts, intelligent nonhumanoid creatures Nobanion: God of royalty, lions and feline beasts, good beasts Red Knight: Goddess of strategy, planning, tactics Savras: God of divination, fate, truth Sharess (also called Bast): Goddess of hedonism, sensual fulfillment, festhalls, cats Shiallia: Goddess of woodland glades, woodland fertility, the High Forest, Neverwinter Wood Siamorphe: Goddess of nobles, rightful rule of nobility, human royalty Ulutiu: God of glaciers, polar environments, arctic dwellers Uthgar: God of the Uthgardt barbarian tribes, physical strength Black Lion (totem of Uthgar) Black Raven (totem of Uthgar) Blue Bear (totem of Uthgar) Elk (totem of Uthgar) Gray Wolf (totem of Uthgar) Great Wyrm (totem of Uthgar) Griffon (totem of Uthgar) Red Tiger (also called Snow Cat) (totem of Uthgar) Sky Pony (totem of Uthgar) Tree Ghost (totem of Uthgar) Thunderbeast (totem of Uthgar) Valkur: God of sailors, ships, favourable winds, naval combat Velsharoon: God of necromancy, necromancers, evil liches, undeath Quasi-deities Tchazzar: Dragon-god of battle, Chessenta, strength, victory[9][10] Kara-Tur pantheon Most people in the far eastern lands of Kara-Tur follow one of the two philosophical religions called "The Path of Enlightenment" and "The Way". In the island Kingdom of Kozakura the worship of a large number of spirits collectively called "The Eight Million Gods" is predominant. The people of the Shou Lung believe in the Celestial Empire headed by the Celestial Emperor[11][12] who is served by the Nine Immortals: Kwan Ying: Goddess of compassion, mercy, joy[11][12] Chan Cheng: God of war, the martial arts, combat, bravery[11] Ch'en Hsiang: God of poetry, music, literature[11] Chih Shih: God of history, lore, tradition[11] Ai Ch'hing: Goddess of love, marriage[11] Fa Kuan: God of justice[11] Hsing Yong: God of fortune, prosperity[11] Shi Chia: God of artificers, the arts[11] They in turn are aided by the Lesser Immortals, namely Jade Ladies, Rice Spirits, Moon Women, Spirit Warriors, Ladies of Compassion, the Lords of Karma and the Sages. Mad Monkey is a demideity of mischief who sometimes helps and sometimes hinders the Celestial Bureaucracy.[13] Maztican pantheon Maztica, across the Trackless Sea from Faerūn, has its own unique set of deities.[14] Azul (also called Calor): God of rain, water, drunkenness[14] Eha: Goddess of the wind, spring[14] Kiltzi: God of health, love, happiness, children[14] Maztica: Goddess of life and the physical world, grants power despite being dead[14] Nula: Goddess of animals[14] Plutoq: God of earth, stone, mountains[14] Qotal: God of goodness, health, protection[14] Tezca: God of the sun, fire, cooking[14] Watil: Goddess of plants[14] Zaltec: God of war, sacrifice[14] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Gods#Human_deities So being a lesser diety means just the fact that you are not as a strong? Or a lesser diety gains power from a great? Example: Mask using shadow and such gains from Sha, as Qutal gains from Lathander? This is probally the dumbest thing I've asked but: What is my avatar a picture of? It just reminded me of somthing evil. |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 09:35 PM | This is probally the dumbest thing I've asked but: What is my avatar a picture of? It just reminded me of somthing evil. Its a Red Sox fan |
| Old Sage09-25-07, 10:18 PM | This is probally the dumbest thing I've asked but: What is my avatar a picture of? It just reminded me of somthing evil.'Tis part of the image for the Sharn from Monsters of Faerūn. |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 10:34 PM | 'Tis part of the image for the Sharn from Monsters of Faerūn. same diff |
| ExtinctionBeta09-26-07, 03:56 PM | Its a Red Sox fan Sorry friend, I'm actually a yankees fan. |
| MerrikCale09-26-07, 10:10 PM | Sorry friend, I'm actually a yankees fan. as am I, hence the joke |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 10:18 AM | Lesser gods hold less important portfolios and/or have less worshippers than greater dieties. |
| ExtinctionBeta09-27-07, 03:38 PM | Lesser gods hold less important portfolios and/or have less worshippers than greater dieties. Doesn't really answer my question friend. I want to know if they were to do battle, the greater deities are naturally more powerful than lesser. |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 04:05 PM | I dont understand, hombre. You can learn more about divine powers (called salient abilities) and the stats of gods in Dieties and Demigods, the 3.0 book on the greyhawk gods. A god has a divine rank from 0 to 20 with the lesser gods and demigods having a divine rank of between 0 and 5 the intermediate gods having 6 to 15 and the greater gods 16 to 20 divine ranks. |
| ExtinctionBeta09-27-07, 04:14 PM | I dont understand, hombre. You can learn more about divine powers (called salient abilities) and the stats of gods in Dieties and Demigods, the 3.0 book on the greyhawk gods. A god has a divine rank from 0 to 20 with the lesser gods and demigods having a divine rank of between 0 and 5 the intermediate gods having 6 to 15 and the greater gods 16 to 20 divine ranks. What does all that mean? You're killing my mind. I told everyone before I don't know this game thing. I just read the novels. Can you recommend me a site to learn or can I just go buy a guide somwhere? |
| Zanan09-27-07, 05:00 PM | Go and buy ... Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons FRCS, Players' Guide to Faerūn Deities & Demigods Manual of the Planes Faiths & Pantheons (& web-enhancement (intersting stuff about killing deities) ... and in that order. Not all is 3,5E or even 3E, but all filled with detail. |
| ExtinctionBeta09-27-07, 05:55 PM | Go and buy ... Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons FRCS, Players' Guide to Faerūn Deities & Demigods Manual of the Planes Faiths & Pantheons (& web-enhancement (intersting stuff about killing deities) ... and in that order. Not all is 3,5E or even 3E, but all filled with detail. Why the attitude with the "...."? Was I suppose to know this? Not everyone who reads knows the game. Just like not everyone who watches a sport knows all the players. I had asked a suggestion as of what to do, thank you for the answer to as of what I should do, but no thank for you for the attitude that was presented. |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 06:08 PM | What does all that mean? You're killing my mind. I told everyone before I don't know this game thing.? You did not tell me. I can't read minds, sorry. |
| Lord Karsus09-27-07, 06:32 PM | Its a Red Sox fan -Close enough. Sorry friend, I'm actually a yankees fan. -Strike two. Just like not everyone who watches a sport knows all the players. -That just shows that they are not real fans of the game. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-27-07, 07:45 PM | Why the attitude with the "...."? Was I suppose to know this? Not everyone who reads knows the game. Just like not everyone who watches a sport knows all the players. I had asked a suggestion as of what to do, thank you for the answer to as of what I should do, but no thank for you for the attitude that was presented. I didn't see any attitude there. |
| ExtinctionBeta09-27-07, 07:49 PM | Not knowing all the players shows you are not a true fan? So I guess seeing that you like forgotten realms you've read every book? Oh, you haven't? No fan of FR you are. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-27-07, 07:53 PM | Not knowing all the players shows you are not a true fan? You said that, not me.:P |
| Droakor09-27-07, 08:00 PM | Its a Red Sox fan Okay, Yankees fan here too and that made me LOL. Thanks man. ---Yankees in the playoffs for a 13th straight year-- |
| ExtinctionBeta09-27-07, 08:06 PM | You said that, not me.:P It was not directed towards you? I don't understand your response. No offence friend, but what do you have to do with this statment? Yes I did say that? In response to Lord. |
| ExtinctionBeta09-27-07, 08:26 PM | You did not tell me. I can't read minds, sorry. No, I am sorry. Once again I assume too much. I had thought that you saw my farewell topic. I will not make that mistake again. |
| Lord Karsus09-28-07, 12:06 AM | Not knowing all the players shows you are not a true fan? So I guess seeing that you like forgotten realms you've read every book? Oh, you haven't? No fan of FR you are. -Actually, I only have a few more. Close enough. Thats akin to not knowing the relievers on the Devil Rays. |
| Zandilar09-28-07, 12:26 AM | Heya, So being a lesser diety means just the fact that you are not as a strong? Or a lesser diety gains power from a great? Example: Mask using shadow and such gains from Sha, as Qutal gains from Lathander? In order of magnitude... Overgod > Greater Deity > Intermediate Deity > Lesser Deity > Demideity. Ao is more powerful than Tyr who is more powerful than Tymora who is more powerful than Lliira who is more powerful than Sharess. A demideity would handily be defeated by a Lesser deity... If they were to do battle. As far as I know, no deity gains power directly from any other deity, unless that deity chooses to share their power (which is not unheard of, just very rare)... Though I suppose there may be a fuzzy grey area when it comes to their portfolios. |
| Zanan09-28-07, 04:20 AM | Why the attitude with the "...."? Was I suppose to know this? Not everyone who reads knows the game. Just like not everyone who watches a sport knows all the players. I had asked a suggestion as of what to do, thank you for the answer to as of what I should do, but no thank for you for the attitude that was presented. All I gave you was a suggestion of what to read and in which order. As I had no time to add a but of fluff and flair to the reply, it was simply pragmatic. If that "attitude" offends, you are probably somewhat easily offended. On a sidenote, I have by now understood that you gathered your knowledge "only" via novels. Hence I would indeed recommend to read the lorebooks on the setting - some of which are actually free downloads at the Wizards' main site. You may find a few on here willing to share facts and figures, but there is a limit to this, as most of the stuff is indeed copyrighted. With regard to the topic at hand, there is very little you can gain from such a question, as each and every deity has his or her limits, special powers and somesuch. Pitch battles of deities will hardly if ever occur. Such stuff is reserved for Abyssal Lords and Archfiends. And with regard to them, have a look at the Fiendish Codex I (Demon) and II (Devils). |
| ExtinctionBeta09-28-07, 04:48 PM | All I gave you was a suggestion of what to read and in which order. As I had no time to add a but of fluff and flair to the reply, it was simply pragmatic. If that "attitude" offends, you are probably somewhat easily offended. On a sidenote, I have by now understood that you gathered your knowledge "only" via novels. Hence I would indeed recommend to read the lorebooks on the setting - some of which are actually free downloads at the Wizards' main site. You may find a few on here willing to share facts and figures, but there is a limit to this, as most of the stuff is indeed copyrighted. With regard to the topic at hand, there is very little you can gain from such a question, as each and every deity has his or her limits, special powers and somesuch. Pitch battles of deities will hardly if ever occur. Such stuff is reserved for Abyssal Lords and Archfiends. And with regard to them, have a look at the Fiendish Codex I (Demon) and II (Devils). What is the MindMage's father considered from ShadowStorm? He doesn't have any followers that I know of but seems pleanty powerful. |
| Xamo'das09-28-07, 05:08 PM | What is the MindMage's father considered from ShadowStorm? He doesn't have any followers that I know of but seems pleanty powerful. He is an arch-devil. They (arch-devils, that is) are lords of the outer planes (The eight circle of the Nine Hells in the case of Mephistopheles), and - while they aren't bona fide deities under current DnD rules - they are possessed of great personal power, and can grant spells to people who worship them (depending on one's personal interpretation, they might also be able to rival real deities in other respects). EDIT. And he (Meph) does have cults worshipping his name. (Though devil worship does indeed seem to be scarce in official realmslore). |
| rikkiwalker09-30-07, 02:34 PM | Ao: Overgod Akadi (Neutral) Goddess of elemental air, movement, speed, flying creatures Teylas (aspect of Akadi): God of sky and storms for the Horde[3] Bane: God of strife, hatred, tyranny, fear Chauntea (also called Bhalla[4] and Jannath[5]): Goddess of agriculture, farmers, gardeners, summer Cyric (possibly also called N'asr[5]): God of murder, lies, intrigue(no longer), deception, illusion Grumbar: God of elemental earth, solidity, changelessness, oaths Etugen (aspect of Grumbar): Goddess of the earth, herds, and pastures for the Horde[3] Istishia: God of elemental water, purification, wetness Kelemvor (possibly also called N'asr[5]): God of death, the dead Kossuth: God of elemental fire, purification through fire Lathander: God of spring, dawn, birth, youth, vitality, athletics Mystra (also called Hidden One[4]): Goddess of magic, spells, the Weave Oghma (also called Curna[6]): God of knowledge, invention, inspiration, bards Shar: Goddess of dark, night, loss, forgetfulness, unrevealed secrets, caverns, dungeons, the Underdark Silvanus: God of wild nature, druids Sune: Goddess of beauty, love, passion Talos (also called Bhaelros and Kozah[5]): God of storms, destruction, rebellion, conflagrations, earthquakes, vortices Tempus: God of war, battle, warriors Tyr: God of justice Ubtao: God of creation, jungles, Chult, the Chultans, dinosaurs Intermediate deities Beshaba ( Goddess of random mischief, misfortune, bad luck, accidents Gond (also called Zionel[6]): God of artifice, craft, construction, smithwork Helm: God of guardians, protectors, protection Ilmater: God of endurance, suffering, martyrdom, perseverance Lolth: Goddess of Drow, Spiders, Darkness, and Assassination Mielikki: Goddess of forests, forest creatures, rangers, dryads, autumn Selūne (also called Bright Nydra,[7] Elah,[5] and Lucha[6]): Goddess of the moon, stars, navigation, prophecy, questers, good and neutral lycanthropes Tymora: Goddess of good fortune, skill, victory, adventurers Umberlee: Goddess of oceans, currents, waves, sea winds Lesser deities Auril: Goddess of cold, winter Azuth: God of wizards, mages, spellcasters in general Deneir: God of glyphs, images, literature, scribes, cartography Eldath: Goddess of quiet places, springs, pools, peace, waterfalls Lliira: Goddess of joy, happiness, dance, festivals, freedom, liberty Loviatar: Goddess of pain, hurt, agony, torment, suffering, torture Malar: God of hunters, stalking, bloodlust, evil lycanthropes Mask: God of thieves, thievery, shadows, regained intrigue Milil: God of poetry, song, eloquence Shaundakul: God of travel, exploration, caravans, portals Talona: Goddess of disease, poison Sss'thasine'ss (aspect of Talona): venomous creatures[8] Tiamat: Goddess of evil dragons, evil reptiles, greed, Chessenta Torm: God of duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins Waukeen: Goddess of trade, money, wealth Demideities Finder Wyvernspur: God of the cycle of life, transformation of art, saurials Garagos (also called Targus[5]): God of war, skill-at-arms, destruction, plunder Gargauth: God of betrayal, cruelty, political corruption, powerbrokers Gwaeron Windstrom: God of tracking, rangers of the North Hoar (also called Assuran): God of revenge, retribution, poetic justice Jergal: God of fatalism, proper burial, guardian of tombs Lurue: Goddess of talking beasts, intelligent nonhumanoid creatures Nobanion: God of royalty, lions and feline beasts, good beasts Red Knight: Goddess of strategy, planning, tactics Savras: God of divination, fate, truth Sharess (also called Bast): Goddess of hedonism, sensual fulfillment, festhalls, cats Shiallia: Goddess of woodland glades, woodland fertility, the High Forest, Neverwinter Wood Siamorphe: Goddess of nobles, rightful rule of nobility, human royalty Ulutiu: God of glaciers, polar environments, arctic dwellers Uthgar: God of the Uthgardt barbarian tribes, physical strength Black Lion (totem of Uthgar) Black Raven (totem of Uthgar) Blue Bear (totem of Uthgar) Elk (totem of Uthgar) Gray Wolf (totem of Uthgar) Great Wyrm (totem of Uthgar) Griffon (totem of Uthgar) Red Tiger (also called Snow Cat) (totem of Uthgar) Sky Pony (totem of Uthgar) Tree Ghost (totem of Uthgar) Thunderbeast (totem of Uthgar) Valkur: God of sailors, ships, favourable winds, naval combat Velsharoon: God of necromancy, necromancers, evil liches, undeath Quasi-deities Tchazzar: Dragon-god of battle, Chessenta, strength, victory[9][10] Kara-Tur pantheon Most people in the far eastern lands of Kara-Tur follow one of the two philosophical religions called "The Path of Enlightenment" and "The Way". In the island Kingdom of Kozakura the worship of a large number of spirits collectively called "The Eight Million Gods" is predominant. The people of the Shou Lung believe in the Celestial Empire headed by the Celestial Emperor[11][12] who is served by the Nine Immortals: Kwan Ying: Goddess of compassion, mercy, joy[11][12] Chan Cheng: God of war, the martial arts, combat, bravery[11] Ch'en Hsiang: God of poetry, music, literature[11] Chih Shih: God of history, lore, tradition[11] Ai Ch'hing: Goddess of love, marriage[11] Fa Kuan: God of justice[11] Hsing Yong: God of fortune, prosperity[11] Shi Chia: God of artificers, the arts[11] They in turn are aided by the Lesser Immortals, namely Jade Ladies, Rice Spirits, Moon Women, Spirit Warriors, Ladies of Compassion, the Lords of Karma and the Sages. Mad Monkey is a demideity of mischief who sometimes helps and sometimes hinders the Celestial Bureaucracy.[13] Maztican pantheon Maztica, across the Trackless Sea from Faerūn, has its own unique set of deities.[14] Azul (also called Calor): God of rain, water, drunkenness[14] Eha: Goddess of the wind, spring[14] Kiltzi: God of health, love, happiness, children[14] Maztica: Goddess of life and the physical world, grants power despite being dead[14] Nula: Goddess of animals[14] Plutoq: God of earth, stone, mountains[14] Qotal: God of goodness, health, protection[14] Tezca: God of the sun, fire, cooking[14] Watil: Goddess of plants[14] Zaltec: God of war, sacrifice[14] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Gods#Human_deities So being a lesser diety means just the fact that you are not as a strong? Or a lesser diety gains power from a great? Example: Mask using shadow and such gains from Sha, as Qutal gains from Lathander? This is probally the dumbest thing I've asked but: What is my avatar a picture of? It just reminded me of somthing evil. There are too many gods in the Forgotten REalms setting and they need to get rid of a bunch of them. |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 02:49 PM | You are wrong, sir. |
| Zanan09-30-07, 04:04 PM | There are too many gods in the Forgotten REalms setting and they need to get rid of a bunch of them. The Romans* alone had some 240 in their hayday, the Celts venerated close to 400. Not all at once, not each and every day. Same with the Realms. I wonder if you have the same problem with Sor/Wiz** spells which are printed in each and every book too? If you want less deities, don't mention them to your players. If cannot stand them still, chose another setting. *i.e., the city state which became one of the dominant powers in Ancient Europe, a "realm" lasting some 1,100 years+. And in those days, there were hardly any wars fought over religion. See what e.g. monotheism brought in that respect during the last 500 years ... ** Just in case, there are only 372 in the PHB alone. Now take a look into the SC, the Complete books et al. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 06:33 PM | Some people have trouble counting that high..... :rolleyes: ;) :P |
| DarkSongKnight09-30-07, 07:03 PM | There are too many gods in the Forgotten REalms setting and they need to get rid of a bunch of them. The variety the Forgotten Realms offers with deities is a plus IMO. Saying that there are too many gods is like saying there is too many colors, or smells, or emotions. Each deity's portfolio covers something different, from evil to good, law to chaos, beauty to death, joy to sorrow, etc, etc, the list goes on. I for one like having multiple options and concepts for an entire world. Yay for variety! As for deities battling each other... If we go solely on their stat blocks (yuck = deity stat blocks), greater deities would trump intermediate ones, intermediate ones would trump lesser ones, and lesser ones would trump demigods. The gods may share power, but I can only see this happening if they have decided to work together on something specific that benefits both deities. Even benign deities compete for mortal worshipers, and sharing their divine power would be sacrificing an awful lot. Sune and Hanali share an enchanted fountain, but thats different than sharing power... Perhaps a deity's power is part of their homeplane? If so, it might be possible that all other deities that inhabit the plane somehow "owe" the (usually) Greater deity that created/rules over the plane. Thus, the intermediate and lesser powers sometimes serve the greater ones in exchange for protection and shelter. (spellplague, anyone? Mystra dies and bam, Dweomerheart [sp?] is gone...) |
| Dimensional_Drifter09-30-07, 07:38 PM | There are too many gods in the Forgotten REalms setting and they need to get rid of a bunch of them. I would wager that most people here will disagree with you. Get rid of them? No. They are part of what makes the setting unique. |
| Zandilar09-30-07, 08:27 PM | Heya, Sune and Hanali share an enchanted fountain, but thats different than sharing power... I believe it's an interplanar spring. As well as sharing it with at least one more Realms deity (Sharess), in the old Great Wheel cosmology, they shared the Evergold with Aphrodite as well. ObOT: I also agree that variety is the spice of life. I like the large list of deities, and would really prefer they kept it intact. But it seems this is not going to be the case. Oh well, I can always just split from canon (or not follow canon at all - it still remains to be seen if I'll buy FR 4e style, and one of the major reasons I might not is because they're messing with some of my favorite deities (Tymora, Mystra, Eilistraee)). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 01:17 PM | Agreed. I'm reading Storm of the Dead right now. There's no way I'll ever except Eilistraee (and her followers) as they are in this series--and therefore, the setting. Even if she survives (and I have the feeling she won't), it's cold comfort if she's totally changed from what I liked about her. |
| Faraer10-05-07, 02:50 PM | There are too many gods in the Forgotten REalms setting and they need to get rid of a bunch of them.The problem with this phrasing is that it isn't even a claim. Too many for what? Need for what purpose? It can't even be disagreed with because it isn't a coherent thought. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-10-07, 02:17 PM | If what all of you say is true, then how is it mask is trying to fend off Shar? I mean it's not offical announced, but I don't think hes going to let his followers just die off without help. If shar is in the mortal realm now...and so is mask, and they don't agree with each others terms....I just don't like the idea of saying since somone has more power means they can't die to somone of less. If I gave a mentally challenged person a gun...I'm sure they could kill a Mike Tyson. So in a sence...could mask possibly find a way to kill shar without help of other deitys? Or is once again the FR world very scripted and linear? |
| Lord Karsus10-10-07, 02:25 PM | -Come again? -What I've extrapolated is that you are wondering if it's possible for Mask to kill Shar. Am I correct? You answered your own question with your analogy. -It all depends on the details of the situation. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-10-07, 02:32 PM | -Come again? -What I've extrapolated is that you are wondering if it's possible for Mask to kill Shar. Am I correct? You answered your own question with your analogy. -It all depends on the details of the situation. "Overgod > Greater Deity > Intermediate Deity > Lesser Deity > Demideity" So I did not answer my own question, merely gave a hypothesis to this statment. Because according to this, mask would lose no matter what. |
| Lord Karsus10-10-07, 02:38 PM | "Overgod > Greater Deity > Intermediate Deity > Lesser Deity > Demideity" So I did not answer my own question, merely gave a hypothesis to this statment. Because according to this, mask would lose no matter what. -If you look closely, I said that the context of the situation is what matters; the details of the situation. -So, Shar is walking around, when suddenly Mask contronts her in an ally. She begins to chuckle, and rebuke Mask when a whole bunch of Mask's allies appear. These fifteen other deities beat the divine crap out of Shar. As she's laying these, dying, Mask administers the final blow, subsuming her. -In this situation, Mask has just killed Shar. When push comes to shove, and pure DR is being measured, Shar is stronger than Mask. But, you can give Mask 'handicaps' and whatever else, until effectivley, he's just as strong as Shar. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-10-07, 02:42 PM | -If you look closely, I said that the context of the situation is what matters; the details of the situation. -So, Shar is walking around, when suddenly Mask contronts her in an ally. She begins to chuckle, and rebuke Mask when a whole bunch of Mask's allies appear. These fifteen other deities beat the divine crap out of Shar. As she's laying these, dying, Mask administers the final blow, subsuming her. -In this situation, Mask has just killed Shar. So with allies he can win? Have you ever seen the movie hostile? Children with stones no older than 6 years of age can beat full grown men with guns if they are in numbers. I don't understand what it is you are trying to tell me? In theory anything is possible? |
| Lord Karsus10-10-07, 02:53 PM | So with allies he can win? Have you ever seen the movie hostile? Children with stones no older than 6 years of age can beat full grown men with guns if they are in numbers. I don't understand what it is you are trying to tell me? In theory anything is possible? -No, I've never seen that movie, but that's the general idea of what I'm saying. Yes, Shar is a greater deity, while Mask is not. Yes, Shar has a higher Divine Ranking than Mask. But, no kind of conflict is always on a fully neutral battleground. If Mask is taking the fight to Shar, there is no way in hell that he is going to initiate any kind of combat without having some kind of trick up his sleeves. Using whatever circumstances that can give Mask the largest advantage, Mask can theoretically win, like a bunch of kids can theoretically kill a larger man. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-10-07, 02:56 PM | -No, I've never seen that movie, but that's the general idea of what I'm saying. Yes, Shar is a greater deity, while Mask is not. Yes, Shar has a higher Divine Ranking than Mask. But, no kind of conflict is always on a fully neutral battleground. If Mask is taking the fight to Shar, there is no way in hell that he is going to initiate any kind of combat without having some kind of trick up his sleeves. Using whatever circumstances that can give Mask the largest advantage, Mask can theoretically win, like a bunch of kids can theoretically kill a larger man. Plus Shar's a women. (Jokes, jokes, chill) |
| Red_Wizard10-10-07, 02:57 PM | Agreed. I'm reading Storm of the Dead right now. There's no way I'll ever except Eilistraee (and her followers) as they are in this series--and therefore, the setting. I'm a little curious as to why? |
| ExtinctionBeta10-10-07, 02:59 PM | Has there ever been a case where a Lesser diety became a Great deity? |
| Lord Karsus10-10-07, 03:07 PM | Has there ever been a case where a Lesser diety became a Great deity? -Yes, Lolth. Lolth used to be an Intermediate Deity, and now she is a Greater Deity. Or, she used to be a Lesser Deity, and now is an Intermediate Deity. Either way, she moved up one 'rank'. -Theoretically, any deity can do it. By increasing their own portfolios (duties they are incharge of), a deity can make himself so important that he/she is able to move up a rank. Alternativley, a deity can (somehow) get him/herself a whole lot more worshippers. -Basically, the rough formula for the power of a deity is this: P=P1+(AWxAF) -P is 'Power' -AW is 'Amount of Worshippers' -AF is 'Fervor of Worshippers' |
| ExtinctionBeta10-10-07, 03:11 PM | -Yes, Lolth. Lolth used to be an Intermediate Deity, and now she is a Greater Deity. Or, she used to be a Lesser Deity, and now is an Intermediate Deity. Either way, she moved up one 'rank'. -Theoretically, any deity can do it. By increasing their own portfolios (duties they are incharge of), a deity can make himself so important that he/she is able to move up a rank. Alternativley, a deity can (somehow) get him/herself a whole lot more worshippers. -Basically, the rough formula for the power of a deity is this: P=P1+(AWxAF) -P is 'Power' -AW is 'Amount of Worshippers' -AF is 'Fervor of Worshippers' So how is shar a Greater deity? She just kills off her followers here and there. And why..all of the dietys...Lolth..she doesn't even pay attention to the surface. The Undercity might as well be another world. Does she hope the Drow Race will expand to a population as big as the surface? That's like saying, a warlord is supreame but has no idea of the other side of the world. |
| Lord Karsus10-10-07, 03:21 PM | So how is shar a Greater deity? She just kills off her followers here and there. -Shar does have few followers, but they are almost always fanatics. Using that equation I made up above, what's worth more: ten worshippers who really only pay you lip service (AF=1 each), or five worshippers who are fully devoted to you (AF=10 each)? This is why, logically, deities who don't have many worshippers can still be powerful. -Also, Shar has many portfolios that are associated with everyday life in Faerūn- dark, forgetfullness, loss, night, secrets. Everytime someone forgets something, or someone loses something, Shar gets that much more powerful. And why..all of the dietys...Lolth..she doesn't even pay attention to the surface. -No, but she pays attention to her followers in the Underdark (the millions of them), and is very involved. She likes to micromanage, I would say. The Undercity might as well be another world. Does she hope the Drow Race will expand to a population as big as the surface? That's like saying, a warlord is supreame but has no idea of the other side of the world. -The population of the Underdark is unknown, but Drow are one of the most numerous and powerful races down there. Again, remember, the number of worshippers is only part of the equation. The other part is the fervor of said worshippers. Now, think about Drow society, and how much everything is modeled on how and what Lolth wants. |
| Red_Wizard10-10-07, 03:27 PM | EB, if we follow history, many of our own cultures claimed dominance of the world, even having never set foot on the soil of the Americas (Not America, The America's). That being said, your analogy has nothing to do with Lolth gaining power. In fact it shoots a good deal in the wrong direction from the point. Now before you say more, I know, as I'm sure everyone else knows, you hate, despise, loathe, detest, and every other variation of the worst form of dislike, the drow. However, Lolth has manipulated and murdered her way back from the bottom of the barrel, as can be seen in a number of novels and canon sources. You may not like it, but she has. How she does it has a good deal to do with the lack of divine interference in the underdark, vs. strong arm tactics on a grand scale. Ignoring the surface, has granted her a reprieve in return from the surface noticing her. Perhaps in time she'll lash out for dominance, but until that day, she will continue sitting and plotting in her pit, and expanding her dominion through the world below. As for Shar, she hardly kills her followers at a whim, and according to the story of creation, she is/was one of the two original gods, from which Mystra was spawned in conjunction with Selune. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 03:28 PM | There are gods with little or no worshippers - they get the majority of their power from their 'natural aspects', rather then their human (mortal) ones. Like LK said, most of Shar's joy-juice comes from darkness, night, shadow - all that ebil kinda stuff. Gods without as many nature-attachments need to build up large churchs to augment their power. -like a bunch of kids can theoretically kill a larger man.Nah-uh. Anakin killed ALL of the Younglings. :P |
| Lord Karsus10-10-07, 03:36 PM | Nah-uh. Anakin killed ALL of the Younglings. :P -Actually, they killed themselves. Upon seeing how wholesome and innocent they were, Anakin decided to sheath his sabre, and began talking about his problems- with Obi-Wan, with Padme, with Palpatine. By the time his schpiel was over, the younglings decided to kill themselves. |
| Suin_Bahhar10-10-07, 05:05 PM | There are gods with little or no worshippers - they get the majority of their power from their 'natural aspects', rather then their human (mortal) ones. Like LK said, most of Shar's joy-juice comes from darkness, night, shadow - all that ebil kinda stuff. Gods without as many nature-attachments need to build up large churchs to augment their power. I agree. This could acount for Silvanus power as he grows stronger from ancient trees or vast swaths of forrest. Chauntea and all these nature dieties could theoritcally keep existing if intelligent life stops existing on Toril. Or maybe the worship of intelligent aspects of nature are behind the vast powers of greater nature dieties. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-10-07, 06:23 PM | I'm a little curious as to why? I don't know if this is the best place to go into my feelings, so I'll keep it short. I prefered Eilistraee as she was before. It's really that simple. I don't care much for Eilistraee as the "Masked Lady"--just as I liked the old Eilistraee, I also prefer the old Vhaeraun. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-11-07, 06:27 PM | Now before you say more, I know, as I'm sure everyone else knows, you hate, despise, loathe, detest, and every other variation of the worst form of dislike, the drow. However, Lolth has manipulated and murdered her way back from the bottom of the barrel, as can be seen in a number of novels and canon sources. If I ever play the game that the site intends for...I will kill off every last drow..my mercy won't even go as far as slaves. Before they fall...they will watch thier women godess on her knees before me. Filthy sewer rats. They will be killed on the surface too while the sun shine upon them. Anyone who so much mentions the name of these cockroaches will be punished by death. Personally.... Then I will go and destroy Shar and with her last dying breath she will seek forgivness and I will let her know her bitterness is sweet. And last, my most hated character...Drizzt...I would hunt down each of his harry potter group of friends and let him see them die too. Then have his own pet cat destroy him. A glorious site to behold! |
| Eli_the_Tanner10-11-07, 08:57 PM | If I ever play the game that the site intends for...I will kill off every last drow..my mercy won't even go as far as slaves. I say go for it. If you can find a capable DM you may soon learn a grudging respect for the Drow. I would be very interested in your first experience with playing Dungeons & Dragons.:) |
| Suin Bahhar10-11-07, 09:19 PM | Seconded. *looks behind him* |
| Lord Karsus10-12-07, 12:04 AM | I say go for it. If you can find a capable DM you may soon learn a grudging respect for the Drow. I would be very interested in your first experience with playing Dungeons & Dragons.:) -Interested would be one way of putting it. |
| SteelGeneral10-12-07, 10:29 AM | P=P1+(AWxAF) <sarcasm> And here I thought that was the secret formula for Pepsi Cola :D </sarcasm> |
| Lord Karsus10-12-07, 10:55 AM | <sarcasm> And here I thought that was the secret formula for Pepsi Cola :D </sarcasm> -Now, why would I type that on a public message board? -I need to amend my formula, though. Here is the new one: P=(P1+P2+...)+(AWxAF) P=Power P1= Portfolio 1 P2= Portfolio 2 ...=Additional Portfolios AW= Amount of Worshippers AF= Fervor of Worshippers |
| Red_Wizard10-12-07, 11:11 AM | I don't know if this is the best place to go into my feelings, so I'll keep it short. I prefered Eilistraee as she was before. It's really that simple. I don't care much for Eilistraee as the "Masked Lady"--just as I liked the old Eilistraee, I also prefer the old Vhaeraun. Fair enough, though it doesn't make me any less curious as to why. ;) Personally I like the story potential the "Masked Lady" has going now. I liked Vhaeruan and Eilistraee, but together I get to lump all my enjoyment for them in a single spot. As for you EB, I don't really know where you have derived this blind hatred of the Drow from, but having never played the game, and I'm beginning to think hardly read a novel, I think you should sit back and re-evaluate, or at least tone down your opinion on them. They are a fictional race, that has done nothing to you, so to react in such a way speaks of an immaturity one would expect from a prepubescent, only child, whining because they can't have their favourite new toy the day it arrives on shelves. Perhaps if you tried explaining what about them is so displeasing to you, you might receive some insight from the community at large, that at the very least doesn't see you tearing around like a retarded monkey who just discovered that the brown stuff in his backside isn't actually supposed to be eaten. |
| dethmetal10-12-07, 11:13 AM | If I ever play the game that the site intends for...I will kill off every last drow..my mercy won't even go as far as slaves. Before they fall...they will watch thier women godess on her knees before me. Filthy sewer rats. They will be killed on the surface too while the sun shine upon them. Anyone who so much mentions the name of these cockroaches will be punished by death. Personally.... Then I will go and destroy Shar and with her last dying breath she will seek forgivness and I will let her know her bitterness is sweet. And last, my most hated character...Drizzt...I would hunt down each of his harry potter group of friends and let him see them die too. Then have his own pet cat destroy him. A glorious site to behold! I have never seen someone have so much hate over a fictional race. I'm just curious, do you hate all drow or just the spider kissers? I don't quite understand the harry potter reference either, but then again i've never read the potter books. back on topic though, I see a large protion of the FR gods not makeing it into 4e they've allready started the proccess with the little bits of info in Grand History of the Realms, by the time the switch to 4e comes next year i have a feeling the whole of the FR patheon with be about half of what it is now. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-12-07, 02:06 PM | You want to know why I hate Drow? If anything, my disliking for the Drow has been only a understatment thus far...Where to start..? One of the reasons I hate the author of the Drow is because he has this "hands off" policy. Kinda hard to match up to the Drow race with surface dwellers when you can't interact with them. That's like Salvantore saying: "Drizzt is the strongest character ever, and you can't prove me wrong because you are not allowed in my characters area" He always talks about in his books how even by the lowest standards of the worst Drow fighters, they are a match for some of the more experienced surface warriors. Why not test that claim in another authors area? The shadovar would hand the Drows ass to them. Then you have thier mentality of society. "Don't touch the spider, it's holy!" They have this stupid housing system where you fight another familys house of a Matron Mother. Ok? So you move higher in ranks in terms of reputation. You get what when you reach rank#1? The praise of a Godess that would enjoy you much more in a chatoic death? The evny of other Drow wanting you dead every moment? You can only gain so much by staying in one area (undercity). And Lolth is just one Diety..she can only give you so much power...think a Drow will ever obtain Elimensters level of power? It is the same as a bunch of thugs raiding other alleys and slowly being #1 in ally wars...does anyone not invloved with the allyes care? I can imagine 20k years passing by, and the drow are doing the same thing because the lock themselves away from the rest of society. While the rest of the world is having some hardcore technology. This next point will have alot of conterversey around it. You can agree or disagree with it by it does not conceed the fact of truth. Women are weaker than men..cry all you like and call me an idiot..but for what ever reason or purpose of who or what ever created us made 2 genders of the same spices body structures differnt. I am not saying women are stupid or unintelligent, but they are considerably weaker. That doesn't mean a women can't train her self and become a worthy adversiary, but the strongest man vs the strongest women..the man will have the final outcome. So to my next point, you have these matron mothers saying they are better than any males that server a female Godess. I am sure if Lolth were a man it would be the other way around. If I was a God and favored ants persay, what could anyone say about it other than just agree with it? Look at Drizzt and Jarlaxell, they have acomplished much. Then you have thier cocky arrogance. "Never send a human to do a Drows job." "Many arrows is smart..but not that of a drow" "The worst of the drow match the best of the surface dwellers". Wow bob, how about you make your race go to a differnt area and see how long other authors let you hold these claims. I'm sure if I was in a school and beat up everyone there and said I was the strongest ever....it would seem silly that I haven't visited the other 50,000 schools in the country. |
| Suin Bahhar10-12-07, 03:32 PM | oO So many holes in that...I'll let someone else shoot. *ducks* |
| Lord Karsus10-12-07, 05:07 PM | oO So many holes in that...I'll let someone else shoot. *ducks* -Yes, indeed. I'll start off by shooting a BB gun. think a Drow will ever obtain Elimensters level of power? -Ka'Narlist, the penultimate Drow/Dark Elf, far surpassed the relative power level of Elminster. |
| MarkusTay6310-12-07, 05:21 PM | Playing devil's advocate here - You took that out of context, LK. He said that they would NOT attain those levels of power under Lolth's rule. Ka'Narlist worshipped Vhaerun. :P Also, although I agree that you are probably right, there are no official stats for the big 'K' man so we will never know. Unless they dig him up somehow... * *Which they just might, considering what killed him... |
| Lord Karsus10-12-07, 05:45 PM | Playing devil's advocate here - You took that out of context, LK. He said that they would NOT attain those levels of power under Lolth's rule. Ka'Narlist worshipped Vhaerun. :P Also, although I agree that you are probably right, there are no official stats for the big 'K' man so we will never know. Unless they dig him up somehow... * *Which they just might, considering what killed him... -Actually, he worshipped Ghaunadaur. And, after Lolth introduced herself to him, he abandoned Ghaunadaur for her. Effectivley, he was the first Lolthite on Abeir-Toril. |
| ExtinctionBeta10-12-07, 07:47 PM | -Actually, he worshipped Ghaunadaur. And, after Lolth introduced herself to him, he abandoned Ghaunadaur for her. Effectivley, he was the first Lolthite on Abeir-Toril. At 1st he was with Lolth..But when did he gain his utmost potential? With Lolth? Or with another deity? GG |
| Lord Karsus10-13-07, 12:46 PM | At 1st he was with Lolth..But when did he gain his utmost potential? With Lolth? Or with another deity? GG -Neither, and both. He was a wizard, so his 'potential', or whatever you want to call it never really derived from his patron deity. |
| Red_Wizard10-14-07, 11:43 AM | You want to know why I hate Drow? If anything, my disliking for the Drow has been only a understatment thus far...Where to start..? I had to laugh at this post EB, because it was exactly what I was expecting your response to be on the matter. You are not only ignorant of reality, but also basing a hatred of a fictional race off of a few scant points that are not facts, but opinions derived only from partial information. But stating this alone won't help you, so I suppose I'll have to explain step by step for you, and see if you can take a hint in the right direction. One of the reasons I hate the author of the Drow I'd like to take a moment to interject here and point out that Salvatore did not create the Drow, he merely used one in his initial novel. Gary Gygax is their true DnD creator. is because he has this "hands off" policy. Sorry, there is no hands off policy concerning the Drow. Other authors are allowed to write --and perhaps at times even encouraged to-- about the Drow, however wizards does not want to dedicate their entire written lineup to the dark elves. R.A.S. is known for Drizzt, and for this reason repeatedly contracted to continue writing about that character. This is largely due to the unprecedented love fans have shown for the character and his friends. However It is the story as much as the characters they love, and that is what dictates continued sales of Drizzt, not Salvators monopoly on the race. When he wrote "The Crystal Shard" in 1988, they had no idea how fast the story would catch on. It wasn't planned to run as long as it has, that was simply good fortune. However, for you I submit the Following. Lisa Smedman, Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, Paul S. Kemp, Phillip Athens, Richard Baker, Thomas M. Ried, Richard Lee Byers, and Mark Anthony to name a few. All of these authors have written more than a passing sentence on the Drow, and therefore it disproves your theory that only Salvatore can write about them. Kinda hard to match up to the Drow race with surface dwellers when you can't interact with them. Well, given that the novels are again based off of the game, your response is flawed, as you absolutely CAN interact with the Drow, if you and your DM see fit to do so. Just because one author, has one Dark Elf character in a desolate part of the world, does not mean that Drow are nowhere else, nor that they can't be encountered outside of Ten Towns. That's like Salvantore saying: "Drizzt is the strongest character ever, and you can't prove me wrong because you are not allowed in my characters area" But he doesn't say that. His character, like a million other protagonists, are the focus of the story. Sometimes the unbelievable happens to help them remain alive. This can be viewed as favouritism, however I offer up the alternative. Death Threats from fans when a character dies. Wulfgar is possibly the least liked of the Drizzt group, however when he died, there was an uproar from the fan community. You are one insignificant hater, and the Author, and the company have to please the majority to make money. He always talks about in his books how even by the lowest standards of the worst Drow fighters, they are a match for some of the more experienced surface warriors. And he is correct by both story, and game standards. The Drow are a war loving race. By the time you've realized that your boys dangle for a reason, the Drow have already begun mastering weapons, and studying tactics with the house weapon master. Fiends fear their weapons, mages fear their spell resistance, and the fact they attack from the shadows, and almost never offer a fair fight, is reason for the masses to fear them in general. If anything, I dislike the air of mystery that has been peeled away from the race, taking with it much of the trepidation PC's felt in earlier editions. Why not test that claim in another authors area? Because every author is going to have their main character --the champion-- be the victor. When asked who would win, Elminster or Drizzt, the answer novel wise was simple. "It depends on who was writing the book". Drizzt would pull some amazing maneuver and rid the realms of the Old Mage, should Salvatore write the story. However, with Ed behind the wheel, the famous Dark Elf would become the Famous Dark Stain. That is why main characters don't bridge stories and authors to often. And, when they do, they are secondary and kept to a minimum of interaction with the main plot line. The shadovar would hand the Drows ass to them. Perhaps if you took two seconds to read the rules of the GAME, something that I think would shed a good deal of light on your narrow views, you'd see that this assumption would be incorrect. Are the Shadovar powerful? Yes, to a degree. Are they invincible? Not even close to being. Are there many of them? Not by a long shot. The Shadovar as a people, living in the city of shade are for the most part simple regular humans. Very few have been gifted with the Shade Template, making it highly unlikely the Shadovar could do anything about the Drow, even if they wished to. Let me roll out some numbers for you, just in case you choose to ignore me. The city of Shade has approximately 25000 inhabitants. Of those inhabitants, roughly 500 are actually Shades. Now according to the same source as the first reference, the Drow have 15000 bodies on the surface, and unknown tens of thousands yet in the Underdark. This information is taken from pages 82 and 28 respectfully, from the source book "Lords of Darkness". Additionally according to the source book "Underdark" on page 161, Menzoberranzan alone has 11439 bodies within the city. Granted 2% of that number is not Drow, However that still leaves 11210 bodies being Drow alone. Now doing the quick math for you here, 11210 Drow from Menzoberranzan --one Drow city--, plus an additional 15000 Drow on the surface, leaves you with a grand total of 26210 drow, VS 25000 Shadovar, of which the Shades are only 500. So, Taking then the number of 26210, and dividing that by the 500 of which I assume you speak, you are left with a ratio of roughly 52/ 1. So, this in turn leads into my next point, again referring to "Lords of Darkness" page 82 here, to which I can peruse the written stats of each of the Shade princes. Given their stats, vs the stats of the Matron mothers of Menzoberranzan, and the house wizards to which are well known throughout lore, their combined power trumps that of the princes by a good deal, especially with the ratio I gave of 52 to 1. To conclude this segment of disproving you, I would like you to note, that as you have never read anything in regards to the DnD game, you are basing you opinion of the Shadovar entirely off of their depiction in the "Return of the Archwizards" trilogy. This means, that you are doing what you complain Bob does with the Drow, saying they are better fighters than most human mortals. Perhaps you should think long and hard in the future before countering yourself again. Then you have thier mentality of society. "Don't touch the spider, it's holy!" Then you have the mentality of modern religion, in which some dictate that Bovine are holy. Your point is irrelevant, as despite a certain silliness about it, it does not go beyond the realm of possibility. Additionally, when you look at the traits of certain spiders, you can see a good deal of qualities that are enviable in them. From efficiency with web production, to venomous secretions used to liquefy preys internal organ structure. They have this stupid housing system where you fight another familys house of a Matron Mother. Ok? So you move higher in ranks in terms of reputation. You get what when you reach rank#1? The praise of a Godess that would enjoy you much more in a chatoic death? The evny of other Drow wanting you dead every moment? You can only gain so much by staying in one area (undercity). And Lolth is just one Diety..she can only give you so much power...think a Drow will ever obtain Elimensters level of power? It is the same as a bunch of thugs raiding other alleys and slowly being #1 in ally wars...does anyone not invloved with the allyes care? Or, you could compare it to Boxing, or Polotics, or any major ruling power in the history of Earth. Everyone wants to be number one, but number one often means a big bullseye on your back. But does that stop you from pursuing the dream of power? Not likely. People who want power, lust after ever more. For the Drow, Lolth is this gateway to power. Through her they can dominate, and destroy those who oppose them. Being the first house, simply means that you had to fight your way from the bottom, up to attain the top. There is an order that is to be followed, even in Drow society. Killing is only allowed if you do so without getting caught. And you can only move for a position you have the power to attain and keep. The council dictates the rights and wrongs of the city, and their judgment can make a victory a defeat in the end. This is not unlike MMA, via the UFC in that you fight to attain the Belt, yet that by no means suggests you will never have to fight again. By your argument, why then do they try for the belt at all? They'll only have hundreds of other fighters looking to take it from them. Also, why then run for president, if you'll only have to concede the position to someone else. Saying why do something, because it could end badly, is not how we has humans reach the position we are now in. The United States would not exist now if people all shared such a defeatist mentality as you apparently do. I can imagine 20k years passing by, and the drow are doing the same thing because the lock themselves away from the rest of society. While the rest of the world is having some hardcore technology. You'd imagine incorrectly then. The Drow along side other war mongering cultures, such as Thay, are the main developers of new and ever more deadly siege weapons, and spells of war. They will advance and survive as they always have, and given where they dwell you have to give them their fair due for doing so in such an inhospitable environment. This next point will have alot of conterversey around it. You can agree or disagree with it by it does not conceed the fact of truth. I found this the most amusing part of your post, as what you call truth is in fact incorrect should you look beyond the narrow focus of the human race. Women are weaker than men..cry all you like and call me an idiot..but for what ever reason or purpose of who or what ever created us made 2 genders of the same spices body structures differnt. I am not saying women are stupid or unintelligent, but they are considerably weaker. That doesn't mean a women can't train her self and become a worthy adversiary, but the strongest man vs the strongest women..the man will have the final outcome. The Black Widow spider is larger, and more dangerous than the male. After mating, the female is liable to consume the male, with nary a care in the world. This one example alone, shows a species in which the males are the smaller, less powerful of the two, and are dominated by the stronger female. Given that Elves on their own, are in fact a different species from us to begin with, coupled with the divine ability the gods of the realms possess to manipulate the genetics of single being --Something we as mortal beings can do to a degree now without magic--, it is entirely likely that the Females could, and would be the larger, and more powerful of the two. They worship a spider queen, and the spider kingdom has proved you wrong. Perhaps you'd like me to call you an idiot now, or should I wait until the end of this post to do so? So to my next point, you have these matron mothers saying they are better than any males I think that someone is just a little embittered thinking that a female might be better than him. Based on arguments you have made in the past, and this last stretch here, it would seem more than likely that this is the case. I have no qualms with a female run society, so what is yours now that I have enlightened you? that server a female Godess. I am sure if Lolth were a man it would be the other way around. Perhaps, but you don't know this for sure. Vhaeruan, Lolths son, was male and favoured male clerics over female ones. However this was in a large part due to the fact that he had both a mother and a sister who chose to gift their females with all the benefits of power, while ignoring the weaker gender. If I was a God Perish the thought. You'd be lucky to have your own mother pay you lip service at gun point. and favored ants persay, what could anyone say about it other than just agree with it? Look at Drizzt and Jarlaxell, they have acomplished much. What does this have to do with anything? How does favouring ants make any sense to what you were saying about a male god favouring males? Perhaps you should elaborate, and try and pull the tucked tail out from between your legs, in the hopes of salvaging some dignity here. Then you have thier cocky arrogance. "Never send a human to do a Drows job." "Many arrows is smart..but not that of a drow" "The worst of the drow match the best of the surface dwellers". Wow bob, how about you make your race go to a differnt area and see how long other authors let you hold these claims. I'm sure if I was in a school and beat up everyone there and said I was the strongest ever....it would seem silly that I haven't visited the other 50,000 schools in the country. Perhaps you should consider that power breeds arrogance, and the Drow are powerful in their own right. I could list a dozen nations or organizations in the Realms alone that assume they are the best and most powerful race or society. I could then open up any monster manual, and find you an additional dozen creatures, who would lay claim to the same thing. The half quotes you have coined here could easily be attributed to any number of beings in DnD. The fact remains that they were put across was via the personal opinions of the characters, to which I ask do you really think there are no arrogant humans who might think the same way? What were the Nazi's if you say no? I'd be willing to wager you yourself are an arrogant little punk, so perhaps you should pretend you have something that moves faster than a dead snail crawling up a tree between those big ole ears of yours, and come back with something viable to say on the matter. I happily await the bile you'll try and spew back at me. -RW |
| ExtinctionBeta10-14-07, 03:29 PM | Wow you are dumb. Half the assesments made of your response only shows me you do not read any of my post fully and skim through them: Once again for the last god damn time: I DO NOT PLAY THIS DND GAME AND ONLY READ THE NOVELS You say a female spider is stronger? I was speaking of humans..(in real life buddy) You match the strongest women agaisn't the strongest man the outcome will be made very clear. You say there is no hands off policy? So if ED Greenwood wished it, he could just stroll his beloved character Elimenster into the underdark of the drow city and start causing some serious chaos? What is this "your DM"? When you play this game, everyone has thier own little world to play in just as in comparsion to the authors not interacting with one another? So it would seem your DND games are behind the times. Try a MMORPG somtime. |
| Lord Karsus10-14-07, 03:34 PM | -Now, Red Wiz, if you can do things like that, why can't you take over Rasheman? |
| Red_Wizard10-14-07, 04:12 PM | Wow you are dumb. Half the assesments made of your response only shows me you do not read any of my post fully and skim through them: Actually I was one of the unfortunate many I am more than certain have read your posts. Honestly, can you tell me how I managed to reply to every last damn detail by skimming, or ignoring it entirely? Perhaps you should take the time to read what I wrote again, and reply in earnest. Simply calling me dumb by no means makes any of what I said less valid. Once again for the last god damn time: I DO NOT PLAY THIS DND GAME AND ONLY READ THE NOVELS And that is YOUR problem. You are basing a faulty opinion off of novels, when the novels are written to reflect the stories of characters from a game. It is hardly my problem that you are ignorant, and don't wish to educate yourself, but it is my problem when you come on here posting pointless dribble, and calling others idiots for knowing more than you. You say a female spider is stronger? I do, and it is pertinent as a spider is of a different species, as are elves in fantasy. Just because elves are bipedal, and can breed with humans in the game, by no means make them human. I was speaking of humans..(in real life buddy) And I was talking of Elves in fantasy. Did I refute your point that human males were genetically made more physically powerful on average? No, I was refuting your statement that female drow couldn't be stronger than there male counterpart. You match the strongest women agaisn't the strongest man the outcome will be made very clear. Drow females are not Human females. Get used to this simple revelation. You say there is no hands off policy? So if ED Greenwood wished it, he could just stroll his beloved character Elimenster into the underdark of the drow city and start causing some serious chaos? Absolutely. If you notice I gave you a list of authors who have written material that affects the Drow, and on top of that I'll even add for you --*gasp* this is a DnD source hold your breath-- James Wyatt who composed the "City of the Spider Queen" game module. What is this "your DM"? Dungeon Master, since I have to spell it out for you. Need I also remind you what these boards you are on for? The game, in case you haven't yet clued in. When you play this game, everyone has thier own little world to play in just as in comparsion to the authors not interacting with one another? No, people play in either a homebrew world --one created by the group-- or in a canon setting such as the Forgotten Realms. They create characters to run together in a party, that is watched over and influenced by the DM. The DM controls all the NPC's -- Non-Player Characters-- and creates an in depth storyline for the PC's -- Players Characters. So it would seem your DND games are behind the times. Try a MMORPG somtime. Actually, I have played several MMO's, and they are all inferior to what a live gaming group can accomplish, to make them fun for overly long. Also, if it were not for things such as DnD, you'd not have your precious MMO's. You're Welcome. -RW |
| Lord Karsus10-14-07, 04:30 PM | -Red, why do you bother? Why not come down to the Rec-Room, and involve yourself in some actual intelligent debates. We have one on the nature of Ba'al that I find particularly interesting. |
| The Ubbergeek10-14-07, 05:33 PM | Someone who hate, who really HATE a finctional thing, to degree like genocidal words... In my book, if you really go to the degree of furious hatred displayed at times toward elves/drows/furries/etc - as if they where real things... It's for me an eerie signal that someone may have psychological issues and needs councelling. Flame me for that, but I would NOT play with such a person - and not feel well if I would have to. Because well, try mentaly to replace in their diatribe the word furries/elves/drows/etcs by, say... blacks... jews... arabs... |
| Zanan10-14-07, 06:15 PM | Red ... once Unther is yours, or/and Mulhorand ... how about serving me as a diplomate or advisor ... say every other day? ;) |
| Red_Wizard10-15-07, 08:47 AM | -Red, why do you bother? Why not come down to the Rec-Room, and involve yourself in some actual intelligent debates. We have one on the nature of Ba'al that I find particularly interesting. I appreciate the offer LK. I'll take a peak later perhaps when more time permits. Unfortunately I don't want to commit to anything right off the bat, as I'm wrapping up a project here at work, and don't want to shoot myself in the foot on either front. Red ... once Unther is yours, or/and Mulhorand ... how about serving me as a diplomate or advisor ... say every other day? ;) What makes you think serving someone sits well with a Red Wizard? ;) Perhaps if the monetary gain were significant I might be persuaded otherwise of course. ;) :D |
| Rauric10-15-07, 09:32 AM | -If you look closely, I said that the context of the situation is what matters; the details of the situation. -So, Shar is walking around, when suddenly Mask contronts her in an ally. She begins to chuckle, and rebuke Mask when a whole bunch of Mask's allies appear. These fifteen other deities beat the divine crap out of Shar. As she's laying these, dying, Mask administers the final blow, subsuming her. -In this situation, Mask has just killed Shar. When push comes to shove, and pure DR is being measured, Shar is stronger than Mask. But, you can give Mask 'handicaps' and whatever else, until effectivley, he's just as strong as Shar. I like this idea Karsus. Mask taking Shars stuff.... bwahahaha! I am a Mask junkie and am not a big fan of Shar though, I am not a Mystra fan either. Maybe Mystra's next version will be more to my liking. Plus I do not want to see the gods in novels after Kemps stuff. Leave the gods shenanigans to the Dms. IMO. Plus, please don't resort to namecalling when you respond to someones post. People get banned for that type of thing eventually. Most people on these boards read the books AND play the game. When they give you info that is related to the game it is just 2nd nature to them. I do not think they mean to make you look ignorant. Anyway, when someone writes a book they usually always make their protaganist win and make their badguys...well bad. When I read those RAS drow novels years ago I hated those ladies so much. Not the drow in general, but the priestessess. Very sexist. I think RAS did a good job at writing about a group of sexist, rascist beings. I thoroughly hated them all. I wanted them all to bite it. I was about 15 or 16 then though. I had the same feelings as you now do I think Beta. I got over it though through the years. You may or may not, lot's of people seem to hate the drow and Drizzt for some reason. Anyway I believe they are going to make Mask a greater deity after the Kemp books. SO he can not be offed by Shar so easily. In the current novels he has only recently started to make moves against Shar's Shadover. By the time she starts making moves against him he could already be a Greater god by then. I hate using game mechanics when using the gods though, so when I run a game I ditch that crap. Stating gods was for gamers who got so powerful that they needed something more powerful to kill, at least IMO. Let's breath everyone. |
| Lord Karsus10-15-07, 12:01 PM | I appreciate the offer LK. I'll take a peak later perhaps when more time permits. Unfortunately I don't want to commit to anything right off the bat, as I'm wrapping up a project here at work, and don't want to shoot myself in the foot on either front. -I really just meant that instead of wasting your time, apply your mind to interesting things. :) I like this idea Karsus. Mask taking Shars stuff.... bwahahaha! I am a Mask junkie and am not a big fan of Shar though, I am not a Mystra fan either. Maybe Mystra's next version will be more to my liking. -Oh, I was just typing that off the top of my head. Were something like that to happen, it'd need a lot more detail and thought than what I typed. ;) |
| WizO_Crosis10-15-07, 01:36 PM | Just as a general reminder, while you're welcome to share your opinions on the forums, please remember to keep all posts courteous and respectful. Thanks. :) :w: |
| Rauric10-15-07, 06:45 PM | -I really just meant that instead of wasting your time, apply your mind to interesting things. :) -Oh, I was just typing that off the top of my head. Were something like that to happen, it'd need a lot more detail and thought than what I typed. ;) Of course, but I like the concept. I see Mask taking a bunch of Cyrics power though, like intrigue and Illusion. Shar probably is staying the same though. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-16-07, 07:22 PM | Fair enough, though it doesn't make me any less curious as to why. ;) Personally I like the story potential the "Masked Lady" has going now. I liked Vhaeruan and Eilistraee, but together I get to lump all my enjoyment for them in a single spot. Yes, I can see that having these two deities lumped together has story potential, it's just that that's not how I prefer them. *shrug*:) I'm a pretty big fan of Eilistraee as she was before, and I don't like to see her nature change. |