Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 06:12 PM	Now that Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Kiaransalee have all been killed, and Eilistraae took over for Vhaeraun, how will the percentage of good drow be? It was 21% (or so) before Vhaeraun got killed, what will it be now? Will this happen: http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1691/oots0044km0.gif (http://imageshack.us) As Eilistraae takes Vhaeraunites into the fold, won't that make MORE good drow a 100 years on?
DarkSongKnight 01-16-08, 06:23 PM	As Eilistraae takes Vhaeraunites into the fold, won't that make MORE good drow a 100 years on? Not necessarily. Some believe that since Eilistraee (Chaotic Good) absorbed Vhaeraun (Chaotic Evil), she is now "Chaotic Neutral." Some reasons for this belief are validated in The Lady Penitent series. Warning, spoilers below. For example, Eilistraee accepts more underhanded means of dealing with her enemies, and Eilistraee herself states that "Sacrifices are necessary." There is also a theory that, as Eilistraee continues to battle Lolth, she is slowly falling into her mother's footsteps; possibly even becoming a new Lolth. In the way that Eilistraee's full moon has become a half-moon, this seems ominous. You may also take into account Drizzt's remarks in The Orc King. In the years since the spellplague, he says that Eilistraee and her followers are "gone!" While the elimination of Eilistraee wouldn't keep individual drow from becoming "Chaotic good," it would cut down their numbers drastically, as Eilistraee allows some drow to realize that there is another power they can turn to. Without such divine aid, many may choose to just tough it out under Lolth's tyrannical rule. Many of us here are concerned about Eilistraee, and hope that she remains the same. Cute comic btw. ;)
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 06:27 PM	Not necessarily. Some believe that since Eilistraee (Chaotic Good) absorbed Vhaeraun (Chaotic Evil), she is now "Chaotic Neutral." Some reasons for this belief are validated in The Lady Penitent series. Warning, spoilers below. For example, Eilistraee accepts more underhanded means of dealing with her enemies, and Eilistraee herself states that "Sacrifices are necessary." There is also a theory that, as Eilistraee continues to battle Lolth, she is slowly falling into her mother's footsteps; possibly even becoming a new Lolth. In the way that Eilistraee's full moon has become a half-moon, this seems ominous. You may also take into account Drizzt's remarks in The Orc King. In the years since the spellplague, he says that Eilistraee and her followers are "gone!" Many of us here are concerned about Eilistraee, and hope that she remains the same. Cute comic btw. ;) Even just neutral drow's a disgrace! I don't know how many % of the drow population worshipped Vhaeraun, but approximately 21% worshipped Eilistraae, but a hundred years on, it could destroy much of culture of the surface drow! No more slaving? No more slaughter of darthiiri? C'mon! Eilistraae won't have anything to fight!
DarkSongKnight 01-16-08, 09:07 PM	Eilistraeens aren't generally out to fight things. Here are some quotes from Ed Greenwood, concerning Eilistraeens and Lolthites. Trimmed a little, and bold emphasis added by me. "Now, if some were wondering if I overstated the percentages: Nope. Don’t think that because Lolth-worshipping drow are the “sexiest” to readers, and therefore almost the only sort of drow that feature in WotC fiction and game lore, that they are “the only” drow. They ARE the most aggressive, and ambitious, and successful, yes, and that’s why I think it’s more likely that Lolth will end up as the ‘last drow deity standing,’ not Eilistraee. The percentages of Eilistraee are high because there are so many surface-dwelling, Eilistraee-worshipping drow. And why not? They don’t suffer the heavy daily losses due to constant warfare, the perils of the Underdark, and so on that the Lolth-worshippers do. Just because published Realmslore neglects them, it doesn’t mean they aren’t numerous and flourishing. If Lolth ever issued strict orders that her followers must never kill any fellow Lolth-worshippers, the numbers of Lolth-worshippers would soar, because right now, they slaughter each other so enthusiastically that they must breed like bunnies to have anyone left alive at all in cities like Menzoberranzan except members of just one surviving house. Think about it. Yes, surface-dwelling Eilistraee-worshipping drow face attacks from other woodland creatures, Lolth-worshippers, Vhaeraun-worshipping drow, and humans, just to top the list of their foes - - but as you say, they’re not busily daily wiping out each other! So they are numerous, and rapidly growing more so. However, Kentinal, it’s wrong to think of them as a “powerful force.” Eilistraee-worshiping drow dwell in small, scattered woodland bands all over the temperate Realms and well down into “warm forest” regions, they almost never work together or even communicate with each other all that often, and they have no interest in dominating, growing militarily or politically, and so on. Wargamers tend to think of “like” populations as large, closely-allied or even single-minded conglomerates, but that’s rarely the case. Try to bear in mind that Lolth-worshipping drow daily do either dangerous drudge-work (males) or scheme and train (females), or go on armed patrols in the Underdark - - and often engage in all-out war. Eilistraee-worshipping drow daily go hunting in the woods, patrol woodlands in a stealthy avoid-the-foe manner, gather nuts and berries and other wild edibles, and - - dance. Now I’ve heard of deaths from heart attacks and falls during dancing, but in general it’s gotta be safer than engaging in pitched battle with either monsters or with other drow who have poisons, hand crossbows, spells, and extensive fighting training! So saith Ed." While yes, Eilistraeens may not slay each other like Lolthites, and the Vhaeraunites may increase their numbers, they also don't have a capricious and cruel goddess driving them to conquer things and obtain power. Its unlikely that there will be more "good" drow in the future than evil drow. However, you are free to do what you like in your own campaign. Perhaps, like so many others are doing, you create your own future for the Realms. If you want Eilistraee to be successful, and most drow to be chaotic good, thats completely up to you. ;)
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 09:39 PM	Hrmmmm if Lolth issued a command for her worshippers not to attack each other wouldn't the Drow be MORE powerful than they already are? Though I guess Lolth is just stupid like that and enjoys her children slaughtering each other and not conquering their surface kin. The more I read about the drow the more I come to understand their greatest flaw. They will never dominate the surface or their kin as long as they mistrust and kill each other off. To quote an old proverb "A house divided against it's self will not stand."
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 11:29 PM	-Hmm...That's an interesting theory about Eilistraee following in Lolth's footsteps, and eventually becoming Lolth herself. Is there a species of spider where the hatchlings consume the mother for sustinence?
Straploknight 01-17-08, 06:17 PM	I dunno about stupid, but it definetly plays into survival of the fittest, you have the be either exceptionally lucky, exceptionally skilled (or both), or favored by Lolth to make it very far (and Lolth isn't known for catering to weak sauce drow), however given the environment (as has been noted exhaustively) in which they dwell, anything less might well doom the drow to extinction. As an example, the drow of Ched Nasad (despite the ignoble end to thier city) regularly tangled with a hive of beholders in addition to the more common perils in the UD.
Kenzuki 01-18-08, 06:47 PM	I dunno about stupid, but it definetly plays into survival of the fittest, you have the be either exceptionally lucky, exceptionally skilled (or both), or favored by Lolth to make it very far (and Lolth isn't known for catering to weak sauce drow), however given the environment (as has been noted exhaustively) in which they dwell, anything less might well doom the drow to extinction. As an example, the drow of Ched Nasad (despite the ignoble end to thier city) regularly tangled with a hive of beholders in addition to the more common perils in the UD. But come on, if Lolth wants them to take over the surface and defeat their cousins they sure as heck an't going to do it when they kill each other all the time. I've read two of the books of the War of the Spider Queen series so far and I've got to say that the drow work soo much better together when they aren't backstabbing and killing each other. When Pharaun left Ryld behind in Dissolution to save his own skin I was like "Omg you dirty rat I hope you die!"
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:18 AM	But come on, if Lolth wants them to take over the surface and defeat their cousins they sure as heck an't going to do it when they kill each other all the time. -Lolth is a good politician. She promises this, but in reality, I don't think she really means it anymore. It's much too profitable for her to keep the status quo, as it ensures her value to the Drow, and the chaos that she thrives on.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:22 AM	-Lolth is a good politician. She promises this, but in reality, I don't think she really means it anymore. It's much too profitable for her to keep the status quo, as it ensures her value to the Drow, and the chaos that she thrives on. You say one thing to keep them under your control, and you manipulate the circumstances so they spend an eternity trying to achieve it (which you make sure never happens). Classical control right there;) Drizzt as Lolthite pawn of the century anyone?
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:24 AM	You say one thing to keep them under your control, and you manipulate the circumstances so they spend an eternity trying to achieve it (which you make sure never happens). Classical control right there;) -'zactly. Drizzt as Lolthite pawn of the century anyone? -To say that Lolth is manipulating Drizzt is wrong, I believe. Sure, he is a Drow, and as that priestess said, causes plenty of chaos. But, there is just too much of his life and circumstances that Lolth can't control and manipulate that I think invalidates this idea.
Straploknight 01-19-08, 01:25 AM	-Lolth is a good politician. She promises this, but in reality, I don't think she really means it anymore. It's much too profitable for her to keep the status quo, as it ensures her value to the Drow, and the chaos that she thrives on. Yeah, was gonna say pretty much the same. "Lets take back the what is rightfully ours and kill all those namby pamby surface elves in the process", is pretty much just rhetoric used to divert her worshippers from the obvious.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:28 AM	- -To say that Lolth is manipulating Drizzt is wrong, I believe. Sure, he is a Drow, and as that priestess said, causes plenty of chaos. But, there is just too much of his life and circumstances that Lolth can't control and manipulate that I think invalidates this idea. Lolth can't control Drizzt any more than she can control any drow, its the amount of chaos they cause in maintaining the drow status quo that counts:) For a chaotic deity, that's good enough.
Zanan 01-19-08, 03:53 AM	Well ... this has been done to death already, so I won't comment. Yet, I think it would be a great idea to include a spoiler warning in the first article, since there might be people still willing to read the Lady Penitent series.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 04:01 AM	Lolth can't control Drizzt any more than she can control any drow, its the amount of chaos they cause in maintaining the drow status quo that counts:) For a chaotic deity, that's good enough. -Drizzt doesn't really have very much of an impact on the status quo of Drow society, let alone even specifically Menzoberranzan. Well ... this has been done to death already, so I won't comment. Yet, I think it would be a great idea to include a spoiler warning in the first article, since there might be people still willing to read the Lady Penitent series. -At this point, I don't think we need to continue hiding the events of the first novel, as it was published pretty much a year ago, now. I know, my policy for being extra careful with things like that, which I learned from those who posted before me, is about six months or so. The Kiaransalee bit, though, sure.
Khaelieth 01-19-08, 06:12 AM	While yes, Eilistraeens may not slay each other like Lolthites, and the Vhaeraunites may increase their numbers, they also don't have a capricious and cruel goddess driving them to conquer things and obtain power. Its unlikely that there will be more "good" drow in the future than evil drow. Ed doesn't say that there'll be more Lolthites, quite the contrary, after reading that carefully. Yes, none of the factions will be monolithic, but still, with Vhaeraun's bunch joining, I believe they're growing at a far faster rate than the Lolthites.
Warning 01-19-08, 06:17 AM	Watch, Shades are next. Just like Drizzt was the "unique drow" that was good. Cale will do the same. It's so lame and unoriginal.
Zanan 01-19-08, 07:06 AM	Ed doesn't say that there'll be more Lolthites, quite the contrary, after reading that carefully. Yes, none of the factions will be monolithic, but still, with Vhaeraun's bunch joining, I believe they're growing at a far faster rate than the Lolthites. Unless I am mistaken, Ed's comments were made pre-Lady Penitent. Furthermore, Vhaeraun's bunch "does not simply join". Some of his priest might be, but do you really expect all Vhaeraun followers (excluding the clerics) will simply switch over to the faith they have fought against and hated for as long as they can remember? Wouldn't it be not much more like the drow we know if they dispose off the new "traitor-priests" as soon as possible, taking their positions. Jezz, one of the main figures of the Jaelre clan, was strictly opposed to the plans by the Vhaeraun priests and now that they have gone awry, he will not simply tolerate the "traitors to his god", even if they start telling glib-tongued lies about who actually defeated whom. As for "growing", I doubt that somesuch is relevant, both physically or socially. There have been tens of thousands of more Lolthites before and there will be tens of thousands more nowadays. Whether there will be an actual influx to the drow on the surface remains to be seen. If the designers have any sense here, they do not start with "good drow" on the surface, maybe some neutral one here and there - as Eilistraee's faiths has always been - be recent novel description - far more CN than CG. Anyway, we will all have a nice wakeup come summer. It remains to be seen whether the night afterwards will have some lovely nightmares for some, given the gloom and doom aspects they are about to include in the New Realms.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 07:22 AM	Furthermore, Vhaeraun's bunch "does not simply join". Some of his priest might be, but do you really expect all Vhaeraun followers (excluding the clerics) will simply switch over to the faith they have fought against and hated for as long as they can remember? -Hey, most of them are only interested in one thing- power. By refusing to pay homage to the 'Masked Lady', they don't get Clerical spells, and thus, lose power. I'm sure that the majority of them begrudgingly serve (that's the impression I got), because the 'Masked Lady' is the conduit to their power. Watch, Shades are next. Just like Drizzt was the "unique drow" that was good. Cale will do the same. It's so lame and unoriginal. -There's always a 'naysayer' in a group, who does whatever they can/need to do to be different. That's why, to use an example, we have 'rockers', 'gangstas', and various other subfactions.
Kenzuki 01-19-08, 08:23 AM	I still think Lolth is a freaken retard for letting her troops decimate each other instead of letting them do some real damage to her REAL enemies. Ironic she was so obessed with Chaos considering she only became the Goddess of Chaos during the Time of Troubles when she killed Zinzerina and stole her portfolios. If she were smart she'd issue a command telling her people not to kill another Lolth worshipper. Couple that with how fast drow breed compared to other elves, then you've got a real fighting force on your hands that will strike fear into the hearts of her enemies! But of course she's got to be stupid so the good guys can beat her.:rolleyes: It's like the superman syndrome, he could zooom in at light speed and crush Lex Luthor's head in. But no, he has to talk to him and blah blah until Luthor pulls out Kryptonite and pwns him. I swear no one writes people like they SHOULD be.
Khaelieth 01-19-08, 12:49 PM	-Hey, most of them are only interested in one thing- power. By refusing to pay homage to the 'Masked Lady', they don't get Clerical spells, and thus, lose power. I'm sure that the majority of them begrudgingly serve (that's the impression I got), because the 'Masked Lady' is the conduit to their power. I didn't mean that the Vhaeraunites switches overnight, like when Xvim got done away with, thinking it more as in 4ed, as 100 years on. They're not gonna go "Right, lads, let's head over to the Eilistraeeans." It'll be a gradual thing. They'll most probably be drifting toward CN, but they'll still not be able to enslave or kill surface elves. Which is what they should be doing! Their priests will either do a "faith of the fallen" or switch, for reasons LK posted. Their followers - do you think they'll go back to Lolth? Not likely, IMO. They're chosing between the lesser of two evils sto them, and I think it'll be Eilistraee they chose, 'cause I hope they don't do a Drizzt and pick a human godess. That WOULD be below them. As for influx of drow on the surface, I meant the Vhaeraunites on the surface, because that's where the majority is (Pretty sure of that). They're the major raiders on human settlements, I believe, especially the Dalelands, according to FRCS. Eilistraee won't sanction slaving parties, CN or CG. So that'll be the end to such things in 4ed, unless the Lolthites decide to have a go again. As for Lolth being retarded; it's her job to be chaotic, much like Cyric to be mad. And it's been working fairly well so far.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:00 PM	I didn't mean that the Vhaeraunites switches overnight...They're not gonna go "Right, lads, let's head over to the Eilistraeeans." -That's almost exactly what happens in the Lady Penitent trilogy. Quite a few Vhaeraunites switch to the worship of the Masked Lady within a few months of her transformation.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 02:23 PM	-Drizzt doesn't really have very much of an impact on the status quo of Drow society, let alone even specifically Menzoberranzan. . He was a force (if not a very important one) that kept the drow in line under Lolth and reminded them of how humble they truely are. He just gets extra credit just because he ended up as FR's poster boy in the process:D
Warning 01-19-08, 02:34 PM	-There's always a 'naysayer' in a group, who does whatever they can/need to do to be different. That's why, to use an example, we have 'rockers', 'gangstas', and various other subfactions. Does that mean that in a group of surface elves. There is some super evil elf just to be different? There is an arch devil in the nine hells that believes in helping others? Or is it just that FR authors are unoriginal?
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:46 PM	There is some super evil elf just to be different? -Of course. The Eldreth Veluuthra is an Elven supremacist organization that is so radical and so evil that the Seldarine refuses to answer the prayers of the Clerics who are members of it. There is an arch devil in the nine hells that believes in helping others? -Yup. Just like Malkizid is a fallen angel, there are ascended devils. I believe that one of the animal paragon things that serve Tyr (Torm?) is an example of this.
Warning 01-19-08, 02:49 PM	-Of course. The Eldreth Veluuthra is an Elven supremacist organization that is so radical and so evil that the Seldarine refuses to answer the prayers of the Clerics who are members of it. -Yup. Just like Malkizid is a fallen angel, there are ascended devils. I believe that one of the animal paragon things that serve Tyr (Torm?) is an example of this. Wow LK....I just....got put in my place. I can barely type...like...honestly what do I say to that? It's like saying....EB: what if 2+2=4? LK: It does equal 4.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:57 PM	-When someone asks a question, it is only polite to answer. You asked questions, so I answered.
Suin Bahhar 01-19-08, 06:01 PM	Sanctify the Wicked spells are a ritual to redeem even the foulest creatures. The Redeemers of Dawn are a subsect of Lathanders clergy in the Realms that is led by a redeemed drow Erinyes, a Nesrhou and a Balor.
Zanan 01-19-08, 06:03 PM	-Hey, most of them are only interested in one thing- power. By refusing to pay homage to the 'Masked Lady', they don't get Clerical spells, and thus, lose power. I'm sure that the majority of them begrudgingly serve (that's the impression I got), because the 'Masked Lady' is the conduit to their power. Lose power? Any non-divine caster does not lose any power. Apart from the power to heal him-/herself ... something which any decent rogue can do by himself. There are ways to get healing outside religion, and there are more religions than that of the drow which might provide it. Those turning away from Eilistraee may well receive their spells from the true Shadowlord, or some other "evil" power such as Talos. He was venerated by the drow of the Forest of Mir long before the use of Vhaeraun here, there, and everywhere by the authors. Just MHO, of course. Kenzuki I still think Lolth is a freaken retard for letting her troops decimate each other instead of letting them do some real damage to her REAL enemies. Ironic she was so obessed with Chaos considering she only became the Goddess of Chaos during the Time of Troubles when she killed Zinzerina and stole her portfolios. First, Lolth may very well have realized that the drow alone will not give her a greater deific status, so she used a better source, for the time being ... and succeeded. Second, I'd doubt that she became a "goddess of chaos" only after barring (it is not clear whether Zinzerena was slain (DD knowledge in AD&D times, BTW) ... and 3RE DotUD even claims that she was not a deity at all :rolleyes: ) Zinzerena entrance to the Realms, for the latter was hardly a pinnacle of Chaos herself. If anything, the demons and demon lords Lolth defeated on her way back to divinity and her time in the Abyss brought her closer to the chaos she epitomizes these days. Keep in mind that she did not need a Zinzerena to wreak the chaos needed to overthrow the Seldarine. Just as food for thought.
Khaelieth 01-19-08, 08:07 PM	-That's almost exactly what happens in the Lady Penitent trilogy. Quite a few Vhaeraunites switch to the worship of the Masked Lady within a few months of her transformation. I meant the majority of the lay-worshippers as well. Don't see Jezz switching too fast. And the idea of the Masked Lady is repulsive IMO. Don't see why the ever had to start the whole slaughter of drow gods. Why try fixing something that's blatantly not broken!?
Kenzuki 01-19-08, 08:24 PM	Lose power? Any non-divine caster does not lose any power. Apart from the power to heal him-/herself ... something which any decent rogue can do by himself. There are ways to get healing outside religion, and there are more religions than that of the drow which might provide it. Those turning away from Eilistraee may well receive their spells from the true Shadowlord, or some other "evil" power such as Talos. He was venerated by the drow of the Forest of Mir long before the use of Vhaeraun here, there, and everywhere by the authors. Just MHO, of course. Kenzuki First, Lolth may very well have realized that the drow alone will not give her a greater deific status, so she used a better source, for the time being ... and succeeded. Second, I'd doubt that she became a "goddess of chaos" only after barring (it is not clear whether Zinzerena was slain (DD knowledge in AD&D times, BTW) ... and 3RE DotUD even claims that she was not a deity at all :rolleyes: ) Zinzerena entrance to the Realms, for the latter was hardly a pinnacle of Chaos herself. If anything, the demons and demon lords Lolth defeated on her way back to divinity and her time in the Abyss brought her closer to the chaos she epitomizes these days. Keep in mind that she did not need a Zinzerena to wreak the chaos needed to overthrow the Seldarine. Just as food for thought. I do believe the Zinzerena in the Drow of the Underdark is the Core version. Because she is killed by Lolth priestesses and web golems as opposed to Lolth herself during the Time of Troubles. Also being that Lolth was a demon yeah she's a being of chaos but she was not THE Goddess of Chaos until she absorbed Zin's portfolio I assumed. That's also when she got the assassins portfolio too.
The_Shaman 01-19-08, 08:37 PM	-Of course. The Eldreth Veluuthra is an Elven supremacist organization that is so radical and so evil that the Seldarine refuses to answer the prayers of the Clerics who are members of it. I've always thought that was a little weird. Ok, I can understand Corellon or Sehanine giving them the cold shoulder, but Shevarash or Fenmarel?
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 03:31 AM	I've always thought that was a little weird. Ok, I can understand Corellon or Sehanine giving them the cold shoulder, but Shevarash or Fenmarel? -When they get the memo from Corellon that says, "We don't like how these guys roll", what are they going to do? ;)
The_Shaman 01-20-08, 11:05 AM	Go around as if they haven't, imo. I mean it is one helluva disfunctional family ;) Seriously, they already accept as clerics CE types Corellon wouldn't touch with the divine analogue of a 10-foot pole, and he doesn't mind. Yet if a CN devoted cleric joins a political organization or anotehr, not matter how extremist, s/he's defrocked on the spot? Doesn't really sound right.
Khaelieth 01-20-08, 11:17 AM	Well, there's CE and CE... CE might mean they just don't show mercy to drow, as in Shevarash's case.
The_Shaman 01-20-08, 06:22 PM	Nah, I'd say it takes a lot more than being merciless to drow to get that CE alignment, really. I know it's not the best example, but Keldorn from BG II also hated drow (or at least evil drow), but he was a paladin - and I'd say one of the best-portrayer paladins I've ever seen.
Khaelieth 01-20-08, 06:28 PM	Nah, I'd say it takes a lot more than being merciless to drow to get that CE alignment, really. I know it's not the best example, but Keldorn from BG II also hated drow (or at least evil drow), but he was a paladin - and I'd say one of the best-portrayer paladins I've ever seen. If somebody begs for mercy, beheading them is evil (unless it's a blatant lie). Though, admittedly, a drow won't be for mercy too often.
The_Shaman 01-21-08, 04:28 AM	Yeah, I guess. I mean, drow are survivors and they won't mind a little embarassment if they live to get revenge another day, but I doubt they'd even consider begging for mercy. From their point of view, it never works ;)
Khaelieth 01-21-08, 07:31 AM	Elves - We surrender! Drow, still slaughtering the elves - Where do they get this stuff!? Surrender! Hahahahaha!
Straploknight 01-21-08, 10:36 AM	Lol, I doubt give the reputation of the thier evil kin, elves would surrender. Being captured or surrendering to the drow would be about the worst fate they could imagine I suppose (maybe being devoured by the elf-eater is a worse fate???). Anyways, if I were an elf, I'd die fighting rather than getting captured. Then again I'd also have a nice fireball on contingency so when I reach 0/- HP ... BOOM ... (might not do much with SR, but you never know)
The_Shaman 01-21-08, 01:38 PM	On the other hand, I'm sure the drow wouldn't mind taking a few elves alive when they can spare the time. I'm sure Lloth appreciates the difference when they are screeching at the altar. BTW, when a being is sacrificed to some deity or demon, does its soul go to its patron god or to whomever he/she/it is sacrificed to?
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 01:40 PM	BTW, when a being is sacrificed to some deity or demon, does its soul go to its patron god or to whomever he/she/it is sacrificed to? -I would say it goes to their patron. Sacrifices are symbolic, I think, to fervor and zealousness of those doing the sacrificing. That's where that entity gets empowered.
Suin Bahhar 01-21-08, 03:12 PM	A willing sacrifice goes to the diety the ritual is dedicated to. The unwilling sacrifices create strong emotional energy that can empower evil processes. Innocsence (sp.) powers evil and injustice powers chaos. Or something like that. :) :devil: Lolth has had the chaos portfolio for a long time (I doubt however Aurushnee the weaver had it), certainly before Zinzerana came visiting Fearun. She only got assassins from Zinzerana. That a drow wont expect any quarter from surface elves or otherwise is a very succesfull result of Lolths grip on the drow. She has managed to make them believe the surfacers expect them to be terribly wicked and the result is the drow actually do the foul things to fill that expectation three fold.
The_Shaman 01-21-08, 03:50 PM	Not just surfacers, though - I think most drow expect all races to be as vicious as they are. IIRC in the course of the first RA Salvatore trilogy, when Drizzt was captured by the svirfneblin, he fully expected to be tortured.
Suin Bahhar 01-21-08, 03:59 PM	Drizzt is a fool. (:mrt:) A mere soldier. A preistess of lolth knows better.
Kenzuki 01-21-08, 04:34 PM	A willing sacrifice goes to the diety the ritual is dedicated to. The unwilling sacrifices create strong emotional energy that can empower evil processes. Innocsence (sp.) powers evil and injustice powers chaos. Or something like that. :) :devil: Lolth has had the chaos portfolio for a long time (I doubt however Aurushnee the weaver had it), certainly before Zinzerana came visiting Fearun. She only got assassins from Zinzerana. That a drow wont expect any quarter from surface elves or otherwise is a very succesfull result of Lolths grip on the drow. She has managed to make them believe the surfacers expect them to be terribly wicked and the result is the drow actually do the foul things to fill that expectation three fold. That's not what I've read. I heard she got Chaos and Assassins from Zinzerena during the Time of Troubles. This is why the Lolth in the Realms has two more portfolios than the Greyhawk Lolth does. She also poses as Zinzerena apparantly to lure more people to her side.
Khaelieth 01-21-08, 06:22 PM	I'd say souls go to whoever the ceremony's dedicated to. But do people see the surface drow turning away from slaving and such then?
Zanan 01-22-08, 08:07 AM	That's not what I've read. I heard she got Chaos and Assassins from Zinzerena during the Time of Troubles. This is why the Lolth in the Realms has two more portfolios than the Greyhawk Lolth does. She also poses as Zinzerena apparantly to lure more people to her side. AFAIK, Lolth barred Zinzerena only roundabout the Time of Troubles ... and the Dark Mother was about and known as a utterly Chaotic deity long before that (say, some 13,000 years). Though hardly provable these days, it would be somewhat odd that Mrs. "Chaos personified" got it from a heroine-come-demigoddess known for her skills as an assassin and illusionist rather than being chaotic.
Chapien 01-23-08, 11:51 AM	Now that Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Kiaransalee have all been killed, and Eilistraae took over for Vhaeraun, how will the percentage of good drow be? It was 21% (or so) before Vhaeraun got killed, what will it be now? Will this happen: http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1691/oots0044km0.gif (http://imageshack.us) As Eilistraae takes Vhaeraunites into the fold, won't that make MORE good drow a 100 years on? Wait a minute... all those drow deities are dead? Im sorry, but all I have is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and it doesn't say that they are dead, plus I have read the book about the panthenons of Faerun, and it doesn't say they are dead either...
Kenzuki 01-23-08, 11:55 AM	AFAIK, Lolth barred Zinzerena only roundabout the Time of Troubles ... and the Dark Mother was about and known as a utterly Chaotic deity long before that (say, some 13,000 years). Though hardly provable these days, it would be somewhat odd that Mrs. "Chaos personified" got it from a heroine-come-demigoddess known for her skills as an assassin and illusionist rather than being chaotic. She wouldn't need the Chaos portfolio to be "chaos personified". She's a demon and demons ARE chaos personified. I'm just saying that she seems to have two more portfolios in the Realms than she does in Greyhawk and those two happen to be Chaos and Assassins which were Zinzerena's if I'm not mistaken. Sounds all too convenient to me.
The_Shaman 01-23-08, 12:20 PM	Wait a minute... all those drow deities are dead? Im sorry, but all I have is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and it doesn't say that they are dead, plus I have read the book about the panthenons of Faerun, and it doesn't say they are dead either... It happened in this novel or that - iirc FRCS is set in 1373, PGtF (the 3.5 update) is set in 1374, so this must have happened a few years afterwards. Novels are generally considered canon in the Realms, sometimes to my displeasure. Actually I know about Selvetarm and Vhaeraun, but not Kiaransalee... when did she get bumped, anyway?
Chapien 01-23-08, 12:25 PM	It happened in this novel or that. Novels are generally considered canon in the Realms, sometimes to my displeasure. Actually I know about Selvetarm and Vhaeraun, but not Kiaransalee... when did she get bumped, anyway? OK, thanks for the info. But this doesn't mean that a DM HAS to use that infromation, after all it is HIS world to run, even if he didn't create it.
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 12:44 PM	Actually I know about Selvetarm and Vhaeraun, but not Kiaransalee... when did she get bumped, anyway? -The very next book in the series, Storm of the Dead.
Zanan 01-24-08, 08:55 AM	She wouldn't need the Chaos portfolio to be "chaos personified". She's a demon and demons ARE chaos personified. I'm just saying that she seems to have two more portfolios in the Realms than she does in Greyhawk and those two happen to be Chaos and Assassins which were Zinzerena's if I'm not mistaken. Sounds all too convenient to me. Please, neither Lolth nor Zinzerena is a demon. Especially FR lore (and that's what we discuss here) is pretty clear that she was a goddess (Araushnee), turned into a tanar'ri by her loving husband Corellon, but reclaimed her divinity and has ever since been a goddess. No-one would run about here and speak of Cyric, Kelemvor, Bane et al as humans, would you? And they would actually warrant that title much more than Lolth. And it is very unlikely that she only became chaotic during her few years as a tanar'ri either.
Kenzuki 01-25-08, 07:53 AM	Did Lolth have the Chaos portfolio in 1st edition FR?
Zanan 01-25-08, 08:31 AM	Did Lolth have the Chaos portfolio in 1st edition FR? No idea (Monster Mythology does not have "portfolios"), but did she ever behave any different than she does today?
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 08:34 AM	No idea, but did she ever behave any different than she does today? -I think his point is that a deity doesn't have to have something in his/her/its portfolios to behave a specific way (ie, Lolth and Chaos, Bane and Evil, whatever...)
Kenzuki 01-25-08, 05:48 PM	-I think his point is that a deity doesn't have to have something in his/her/its portfolios to behave a specific way (ie, Lolth and Chaos, Bane and Evil, whatever...) Exactly. I just think it makes alot of sense the way I look at it. Lolth in the Realms has all the portfolios of Core Lolth plus two which are Chaos and Assassins. Those were Zinzerena's portfolios and it says that Lolth killed her and took her powers. So it makes sense to me why in the Realms she has those two extra.
Vulpes 01-26-08, 01:45 AM	Didn't Ed or one of the other designers say that most drow that were good-inclined aren't Eilisteraee-worshipers, but just hide their distaste for drow evil better than Drizzt could and grin and bear it in the Underdark cities? Or am I just making that up?
Zanan 01-26-08, 08:23 AM	-I think his point is that a deity doesn't have to have something in his/her/its portfolios to behave a specific way (ie, Lolth and Chaos, Bane and Evil, whatever...) Matter of factly, even though s/he said otherwise above, I was under the impression that Kenzuki was pressing the point that Lolth does not have Chaos in her portfolio without a special reason ... and that being her assumption of Zinzerena (as is intimated in DD). I don't think that deities need to have all their attributes, likings, alignment traits and whatever amongst their portfolios either. I stated my opinion about Lolth being Chaotic and having Chaos as an portfolio without the need of subsuming/fending off Zinzerena above.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 06:08 PM	I just think it odd that the Realms Lolth has all the portfolios of the Greyhawk Lolth except for Assassins and Chaos, and it just so happens that those were Zinzerana's portfolios and she killed her during the ToT and consumed those portfolios. Just me now.
Zanan 01-28-08, 03:51 AM	That's not odd, that's because the Realms' Lolth always had more substance to her than the Core one. Same goes for 3E domains et al.
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 02:25 PM	That's not odd, that's because the Realms' Lolth always had more substance to her than the Core one. Same goes for 3E domains et al. So you don't consider that to be a little too convinient? That the two extra portfolios she has are the EXACT same ones Zinzerena is supposed to have had? And that Lolth killed her and took her powers? 2+2=?
Suin Bahhar 01-28-08, 02:29 PM	Stop this heresy!
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 03:08 PM	-Kenzuki has the Heretic feat.
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 05:28 PM	One person's heretic is another person's prophet.:D
Zanan 01-28-08, 05:46 PM	So you don't consider that to be a little too convinient? That the two extra portfolios she has are the EXACT same ones Zinzerena is supposed to have had? And that Lolth killed her and took her powers? 2+2=? Rest assured, I see your point. She also gained Moander's portfolios and they are not listed, neither now and then. We could start creating hypothesises (sp?) about that too. For this is as much flair text as are the lines about Zinzerena (who, as I told you, was not necessarily killed).
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 05:50 PM	From what I've read she was killed during the Time of Troubles.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 12:37 AM	Rest assured, I see your point. She also gained Moander's portfolios and they are not listed, neither now and then. -No she didn't. Finder Wyvernspur gained Moander's portfolios. Lolth has begun masquerading as Moander, by answering the prayers of Moander's cultists, but that in no way makes her steward over anything Moander represented.
Zanan 01-29-08, 04:30 AM	-No she didn't. Finder Wyvernspur gained Moander's portfolios. Lolth has begun masquerading as Moander, by answering the prayers of Moander's cultists, but that in no way makes her steward over anything Moander represented. Have a look at Demihuman Deities*. *And this includes taking it off the shelf and reading the Lolth entry. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 10:09 AM	Have a look at Demihuman Deities*. *And this includes taking it off the shelf and reading the Lolth entry. ;) -Moander's portfolios included 'Decay', 'Corruption' and 'Rot'. -Lolth's current portfolios include 'Assassins', 'Chaos', 'Darkness', 'Drow', 'Evil', and 'Spiders'.