Good orcs in the Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Good orcs in the Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
creyzi4zb12
06-18-07, 11:11 AM Okay....I know this is kinda weird but....
Can anybody state in some of the orcs in the Realms that are not CE or LE?
Lord Karsus
06-18-07, 12:13 PM -While I don't doubt that a few exist, there are few. Very few.
The_Wrath_of_Talos
06-18-07, 01:36 PM Eberron has the majority of nonevil orcs I'm afraid. But I do believe their are at least neutral orcs in the area of Phasant, just west of Thay. And I know of at least one other city that was described in the road of the patriarche, some where in the northern central region of faerun.
Gray Richardson
06-18-07, 01:38 PM There is a whole community of good-aligned orcs living in the Moonsea area, if I recall. I am hazy about the details, I think they had converted to the worship of Ilmater.
Mad Mage
06-18-07, 01:40 PM Then, of course, there are the (if I'm not mistaken) Eldath-worshipping Ordonti Orcs, which - sadly - have been all but enslaved. If I'm also not mistaken here, they are slaves of the Red Wizards.

That is, unless the orcs I've mentioned are the ones Gray's talking about.
TomCosta
06-18-07, 05:36 PM I worked up the ondonti in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 1 http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html
Gray Richardson
06-18-07, 08:18 PM Yes, thank you! Those are the ones I was thinking about! I was wracking my brain all day trying to remember.
BadCatMan
06-18-07, 08:22 PM The city of Airspur in Chessenta is inhabited by a mixture of Humans, Orcs, and Half-Orcs.
Borris
06-19-07, 05:06 AM The southern part of the High Forest has a few tribes of neutral (N and CN) mountain orcs who worship Herne Herkgruum (Herne the Huntmaster), an ancient Neutral orc god of who was never really part of the orc pantheon and who, without any allies, was slain by Malar a ling time ago. He's now a Neutral aspect of Malar, though the orcs of the High Forest aren't aware of that.
EytanBernstein
06-19-07, 06:13 AM I believe that half-orcs in the Vaasan frontier town of Palischuk have a decidedely benevolent overall way of life. They're described in detail in RA Salvatores's recent Sellswords trilogy.
The_Shaman
06-19-07, 06:25 AM I think there were some retired Zhent soldiers settling in various places in the North. Some of them might be orcs, and a rare few could have gone beyond neutral alignments in the years after they have been there. Also, I think half-orcs and maybe full orcs were tolerated in Thesk, so some might have been exposed to more benevolent philosophies and religions.

Aside from that, a few hermits and stragglers, maybe, but not too many overall.
Borris
06-19-07, 07:18 AM About Thesk. After the Zhents helped push the great Tuigan Horde back into the Endless Wastes, it decided to leave most of its orc and half-orc troops stationed being in Thesk. Many are still loyal to Zhentil Keep but, with the war long years behind, others have begun to enjoy their life in one of the few parts of Faerūn that doesn't see orcs are dangerous hordes, and may have become more loyal to Thesk than to the Zhents.

Nothing is said about those orcs' alignment, so they're probably still mostly evil, like those still with Zhentil Keep, but they're more likely to be neutral or even good than your average Faerūnian orc.
creyzi4zb12
06-19-07, 08:31 AM I worked up the ondonti in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 1 http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html

Is that a free book that talks about DnD? cool!! :cool:

On topic: So how many orcs are not CE or LE in the realms according to percentage of their total numbers?
Lord Karsus
06-19-07, 10:16 AM On topic: So how many orcs are not CE or LE in the realms according to percentage of their total numbers?

-Considering the sheer amount of orcs, of all subraces, who inhabit the Realms, the ratio of good/neutral Orcs to evil Orcs is going to be quite low.
Lord Dracul
06-22-07, 03:01 PM I thought the only good orc was an enslaved orc?? :cool:
TomCosta
06-22-07, 03:50 PM (Both volumes of Bestiary of the Realms and all the other goodness, Eric, George, and I have posted on Eric's site are unofficial.)
Xaean
06-22-07, 06:50 PM According to Unapproachable East most orcs in Thesk are neutral and more interessted in trading than in war. Likeley they don't miss their former masters from Zhentil Keep...

I haven't heard about a significant number of non-evil orcs in any other place, though - and likely nobody outside Thesk would believe in the existince of non-evil orcs.
Mad Mage
06-22-07, 08:56 PM Okay, am I correct, though, on the fact that most - if not all - Ordonti Orcs have been enslaved? I swore I read that in another thread a few years back.
rjfras
06-23-07, 02:32 AM they were enslaved by the zhents, but when zhentil keep was attacked and the northern part was pretty much destroyed, most of the ordonti managed to escape and return to their lands and the tribal casters are now using magic to help hide them. Trying to remember where I read that but it's 1:30 in the morning and don't feel like searching through my stuff now.
Francius
06-23-07, 08:43 AM To me, orcs will always be just that: pawns created by a villain monstrous deity (Grumsh) in order to make them fullfill his desire to conquer all of the human lands and regions he has an eye upon.
runestar
06-23-07, 11:47 PM The only good orc is a dead orc.

Now, if we zoom back to the events at the time of the 1000 orcs trilogy...:D
souldnce9
06-26-07, 04:16 AM The only good bigot is a dead bigot! :P

One of these days a leader is going to appear in Faerun that is going to convince his subjects that all orcs should be eradicated. His charismatic charm is going to convince other nations as well. When that day comes orcs are going to be rounded up put into concentration camps and killed in mass numbers.
Wizardman
06-26-07, 07:40 AM One of these days a leader is going to appear in Faerun that is going to convince his subjects that all orcs should be eradicated. His charismatic charm is going to convince other nations as well. When that day comes orcs are going to be rounded up put into concentration camps and killed in mass numbers.

I really don't see it. One of the things about the Realms is that the mortal races in general cannot pull together on a grand scale for any length of time, despite the attempts of many different groups to make them do so. Something always happens to throw a wrench into the works. The attempted extermination of an entire race is definitely one of those "grand scale" things.

One must also take the gods into consideration. The orc gods would not take this lying down, and they would likely have support from the more far-sighted evil humanoid gods. They would conceivably have some degree of support from other deities. This whole idea is murder on a grand scale, and most non-evil gods would have their followers slapped down for taking part in murder. Clerics would know their deity's displeasure, and many good gods would likely hold their noses and help the orcs, and order their followers to do the same. If 2E fluff holds true, then a cabal of pantheon-spanning fertility goddesses (Chauntea, Sune, Sharess, Sharindlar, Sheela Peryroyl, Shiallia, and Hanali Celanil) is very likely to quietly help Luthic protect orc women and children.
Sullivan
06-26-07, 03:23 PM The dead ones?

The destroyed odonti orcs were good, but are no more. Others are just individual good orcs, not a society of them. The ones in Chessenta and Thesk are social orc, which is not the same as good – they just are barbarians.
Wizardman
06-26-07, 06:04 PM The destroyed odonti orcs were good, but are no more.

The Ondonti haven't been completely annihilated, but they are fairly close to extinction. Eldath is keeping the rest of the free Ondonti hidden, and the Zhents are embarking on a breeding-and-indoctrination program with the remainder.
souldnce9
06-27-07, 02:46 AM I was being sarcastic Wizardman
Wizardman
06-27-07, 03:10 AM I was being sarcastic Wizardman

My apologies.
souldnce9
06-27-07, 03:24 AM No problem! :D
Zsych
06-27-07, 04:11 AM I kinda think of Obould(? the orc leader in the Drizzt books), as good.

He cares for his people. I think he probably respects other people, or would choose to, so as to be looked on well by the more tolerant goodly rulers.

... and under his guidance.. at least those orcs close to him, should be becoming less stupid and less obviously evil(as long as he has maintained some of the charisma of being one with his god).
Wizardman
06-27-07, 07:42 AM I kinda think of Obould(? the orc leader in the Drizzt books), as good.

He cares for his people. I think he probably respects other people, or would choose to, so as to be looked on well by the more tolerant goodly rulers.

... and under his guidance.. at least those orcs close to him, should be becoming less stupid and less obviously evil(as long as he has maintained some of the charisma of being one with his god).

I have to disagree with your conclusion, but I am in full agreement with your general reasoning. My take on what Obould is doing is that he is making the orcs more civilized. Orc hordes are notoriously wild things, and are driven more by instinct than by conscious purpose. This is a part of what makes them dangerous, but also weakens them. Orc hordes are not cohesive units, but are a large group of individually powerful warriors fighting the same enemies but seldom truly working together. Obould is changing this. He's making them work together, and they are reaping the benefits. If he can hold on long enough to make sure that the lesson of cooperation takes hold, then he will have marked the North in a way that few leaders could ever dream of doing. The days of the orc horde will be over. The days of the orc army will have begun.

What really tickles me about this scenario is that so far, neither side really seems to appreciate what is going on*. I'm sure that Obould would be horrified if someone told him that he is civilizing the orcs, and if the leaders of the Silver Marches caught on to what's happening... Alustriel probably wouldn't just take him out even though she could (Khelben or the Simbul definitely would, but not Alustriel), Helm and the dwarves would likely prefer a direct military solution over assassination, and Kayl, Methrammar, and Taern also don't strike me as the types to favour assassination.

In any case, I would be very surprised if R.A. Salvatore's next trilogy doesn't cover the Obould situation in some detail. The set-up is certainly there for it, and the promos definitely hint at it.

(*-- Well, Drizzt Do'Urden grasps some of it, but he doesn't quite seem to grok the difference between "civilization" and "community.")
runestar
06-27-07, 07:55 AM I kinda think of Obould(? the orc leader in the Drizzt books), as good.

He cares for his people. I think he probably respects other people, or would choose to, so as to be looked on well by the more tolerant goodly rulers.

... and under his guidance.. at least those orcs close to him, should be becoming less stupid and less obviously evil(as long as he has maintained some of the charisma of being one with his god).
That would make him a good ruler, but "good" in this sense would be more effective with "effective", rather than in the alignment sense, IMO.:P

We still do not know what his plans are. He wants to set up an orc nation, and perhaps even engage in trade with other countries. The other rulers would probably go along with it, seeing it as a matter of mutual benefit and pragmatism (better to at least get some money out of it, than having the orcs invade your territory and taking what they want). Is he truly content to just build up his nation peacefully? Or will he set his sights on conquering other nations once his armies are powerful enough? Considering the rate at which orcs reproduce, he will surely need more and more territory and resources as time goes by.

That would be a disaster then. In the past, the orcs' inadequacy at strategy and war tactics was offset only by their physical prowess. Now imagine the both combined.:eek:

The idea of a lawful orc nation intrigues me greatly, I must admit, considering how orcs have traditionally been portrayed as undisciplined savages.
Ilithar Starspiral
07-03-07, 08:34 AM If memory doesn't fail me, wasn't there an orc paladin of Helm in War of Tethyr? His name was Shield.

I think anyway. It's early in the morning right now, and I'm not firing on all cylinders.
MarkusTay63
07-03-07, 03:10 PM If you read through the 2e stuff, as well as the Utter east, you can find hundreds of examples of Orcs living in peace with humans. In most other areas, especially the east, Orcs are just like barbarians. You only find the blood-thristy savages in The North. And BTW, the human barbarians above the Spine of the World behave exactly as the Orcs do, and even occassionally raid human villages alongside their Orcish neighbors.

There is a tribe living in the far North of the Moonsea region that are peaceful farmers, and are called the Ondonti. I think the Zantarrim took them over, but they were useless as fighters - they're all pacifists, so they just use them as plantation slaves.
Wizardman
07-03-07, 05:26 PM If memory doesn't fail me, wasn't there an orc paladin of Helm in War of Tethyr? His name was Shield.

I think anyway. It's early in the morning right now, and I'm not firing on all cylinders.

Very close. His full name was Shield of Innocence, and he was a paladin of Torm.
Stigger
07-03-07, 05:58 PM He was an orog though, which aren't really 'typical' orcs... they're the orcs who will one day be able to integrate with the rest of the world, after tossing off the shackles of Grumpywhatshisface.
Wizardman
07-03-07, 06:11 PM He was an orog though, which aren't really 'typical' orcs... they're the orcs who will one day be able to integrate with the rest of the world, after tossing off the shackles of Grumpywhatshisface.

It does seem like Gruumsh is the one holding them back, isn't it? Those orcs that successfully integrate almost always seem to be the ones that throw off his worship. Maybe Obould is finally changing that, though. He worships Gruumsh, and he's civilizing his followers.

I wonder what would happen to the pantheon if he were ever taken out of the picture. He doesn't have a natural successor. Luthic is a woman and because of that only Baghtru would accept her leadership; Baghtru is a) too stupid, and b) all too likely to be seen as Luthic's pawn (which, to be fair, he would be); and Shargaas, Ilneval, and Yurtrus would be at each other's throats.
Stigger
07-04-07, 03:53 PM My own personal theory is that if they ever got rid of Grumpy then the religious strife that would tear apart the pantheon would probably reflect on their mortal followers and that the world would be free of hordes for a while longer while the orcs erupted into a holy war with each other...

Though I doubt that Obould is going to be the one who manages to civilize the orcs. The system he's implemented to keep them in line, while good for the short term, doesn't sound like its likely to survive his death. Which is kinda the problem for ocs in general... they can succeed in the short term in terms of success, but their long term success is almost always doomed to fail given their racial tendencies towards violent self-destructive chaos... which while not that different from the drow, they don't have the intelligence by and large to compensate for the inherent flaws in their society.
creyzi4zb12
07-06-07, 11:59 AM I kinda like evil orcs more than good ones. RAS made Obould a bit on the good (even tho he's evil) side because of his so called "honor".
Vrakk on the other hand was as cool as he could get. I think he's an evil orc/good orc/I really don't know his alignment.
But I think he really is evil coz he does consider himself as a "monster."
Here are some cool lines I noted about Vrakk.
=*acts all stupid to save a girl from being arrested*"I don't read Zhentish", "I'm too stupid to be working on bridge."
="If they treat us like monsters, then we be monsters."
=When he betrays the evil citizens of Zhentil keep. "We're monsters. So we fight on the side of monsters."
="I'm a monster. Monsters don't need medals."

BTW: Where can I find the Shield of Innocence fellow? What trilogy is he on? Is his role big?
MarkusTay63
07-06-07, 03:19 PM Maybe we need a new Orcish god, one who is not quite so ugly, and espouses the virtues of peaceful co-existance (Okay, made a half-Orc god).

We could call him OrcishDan, God of Quantum physics and tea parties. ;)
Sullivan
07-07-07, 11:35 AM If you insist on having "good" orcs, then why not do to them what Star Trek Next Gen did to the Klingons; give them a fierce but coherent civilization that could be worked with, even if it was not easy.

This does not turn them inside out, so to speak, it is more of an adjustment to perception.
MarkusTay63
07-07-07, 08:07 PM LOL, thats exactly the ethnic group I'm basing my pre-drow Dark Elf articles on in the Elven Netbook.

Fierce, blood-thirsty, competetative... yet strangely honorable. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
creyzi4zb12 06-18-07, 11:11 AM	Okay....I know this is kinda weird but.... Can anybody state in some of the orcs in the Realms that are not CE or LE?
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 12:13 PM	-While I don't doubt that a few exist, there are few. Very few.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-18-07, 01:36 PM	Eberron has the majority of nonevil orcs I'm afraid. But I do believe their are at least neutral orcs in the area of Phasant, just west of Thay. And I know of at least one other city that was described in the road of the patriarche, some where in the northern central region of faerun.
Gray Richardson 06-18-07, 01:38 PM	There is a whole community of good-aligned orcs living in the Moonsea area, if I recall. I am hazy about the details, I think they had converted to the worship of Ilmater.
Mad Mage 06-18-07, 01:40 PM	Then, of course, there are the (if I'm not mistaken) Eldath-worshipping Ordonti Orcs, which - sadly - have been all but enslaved. If I'm also not mistaken here, they are slaves of the Red Wizards. That is, unless the orcs I've mentioned are the ones Gray's talking about.
TomCosta 06-18-07, 05:36 PM	I worked up the ondonti in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 1 http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html
Gray Richardson 06-18-07, 08:18 PM	Yes, thank you! Those are the ones I was thinking about! I was wracking my brain all day trying to remember.
BadCatMan 06-18-07, 08:22 PM	The city of Airspur in Chessenta is inhabited by a mixture of Humans, Orcs, and Half-Orcs.
Borris 06-19-07, 05:06 AM	The southern part of the High Forest has a few tribes of neutral (N and CN) mountain orcs who worship Herne Herkgruum (Herne the Huntmaster), an ancient Neutral orc god of who was never really part of the orc pantheon and who, without any allies, was slain by Malar a ling time ago. He's now a Neutral aspect of Malar, though the orcs of the High Forest aren't aware of that.
EytanBernstein 06-19-07, 06:13 AM	I believe that half-orcs in the Vaasan frontier town of Palischuk have a decidedely benevolent overall way of life. They're described in detail in RA Salvatores's recent Sellswords trilogy.
The_Shaman 06-19-07, 06:25 AM	I think there were some retired Zhent soldiers settling in various places in the North. Some of them might be orcs, and a rare few could have gone beyond neutral alignments in the years after they have been there. Also, I think half-orcs and maybe full orcs were tolerated in Thesk, so some might have been exposed to more benevolent philosophies and religions. Aside from that, a few hermits and stragglers, maybe, but not too many overall.
Borris 06-19-07, 07:18 AM	About Thesk. After the Zhents helped push the great Tuigan Horde back into the Endless Wastes, it decided to leave most of its orc and half-orc troops stationed being in Thesk. Many are still loyal to Zhentil Keep but, with the war long years behind, others have begun to enjoy their life in one of the few parts of Faerūn that doesn't see orcs are dangerous hordes, and may have become more loyal to Thesk than to the Zhents. Nothing is said about those orcs' alignment, so they're probably still mostly evil, like those still with Zhentil Keep, but they're more likely to be neutral or even good than your average Faerūnian orc.
creyzi4zb12 06-19-07, 08:31 AM	I worked up the ondonti in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 1 http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html Is that a free book that talks about DnD? cool!! :cool: On topic: So how many orcs are not CE or LE in the realms according to percentage of their total numbers?
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 10:16 AM	On topic: So how many orcs are not CE or LE in the realms according to percentage of their total numbers? -Considering the sheer amount of orcs, of all subraces, who inhabit the Realms, the ratio of good/neutral Orcs to evil Orcs is going to be quite low.
Lord Dracul 06-22-07, 03:01 PM	I thought the only good orc was an enslaved orc?? :cool:
TomCosta 06-22-07, 03:50 PM	(Both volumes of Bestiary of the Realms and all the other goodness, Eric, George, and I have posted on Eric's site are unofficial.)
Xaean 06-22-07, 06:50 PM	According to Unapproachable East most orcs in Thesk are neutral and more interessted in trading than in war. Likeley they don't miss their former masters from Zhentil Keep... I haven't heard about a significant number of non-evil orcs in any other place, though - and likely nobody outside Thesk would believe in the existince of non-evil orcs.
Mad Mage 06-22-07, 08:56 PM	Okay, am I correct, though, on the fact that most - if not all - Ordonti Orcs have been enslaved? I swore I read that in another thread a few years back.
rjfras 06-23-07, 02:32 AM	they were enslaved by the zhents, but when zhentil keep was attacked and the northern part was pretty much destroyed, most of the ordonti managed to escape and return to their lands and the tribal casters are now using magic to help hide them. Trying to remember where I read that but it's 1:30 in the morning and don't feel like searching through my stuff now.
Francius 06-23-07, 08:43 AM	To me, orcs will always be just that: pawns created by a villain monstrous deity (Grumsh) in order to make them fullfill his desire to conquer all of the human lands and regions he has an eye upon.
runestar 06-23-07, 11:47 PM	The only good orc is a dead orc. Now, if we zoom back to the events at the time of the 1000 orcs trilogy...:D
souldnce9 06-26-07, 04:16 AM	The only good bigot is a dead bigot! :P One of these days a leader is going to appear in Faerun that is going to convince his subjects that all orcs should be eradicated. His charismatic charm is going to convince other nations as well. When that day comes orcs are going to be rounded up put into concentration camps and killed in mass numbers.
Wizardman 06-26-07, 07:40 AM	One of these days a leader is going to appear in Faerun that is going to convince his subjects that all orcs should be eradicated. His charismatic charm is going to convince other nations as well. When that day comes orcs are going to be rounded up put into concentration camps and killed in mass numbers. I really don't see it. One of the things about the Realms is that the mortal races in general cannot pull together on a grand scale for any length of time, despite the attempts of many different groups to make them do so. Something always happens to throw a wrench into the works. The attempted extermination of an entire race is definitely one of those "grand scale" things. One must also take the gods into consideration. The orc gods would not take this lying down, and they would likely have support from the more far-sighted evil humanoid gods. They would conceivably have some degree of support from other deities. This whole idea is murder on a grand scale, and most non-evil gods would have their followers slapped down for taking part in murder. Clerics would know their deity's displeasure, and many good gods would likely hold their noses and help the orcs, and order their followers to do the same. If 2E fluff holds true, then a cabal of pantheon-spanning fertility goddesses (Chauntea, Sune, Sharess, Sharindlar, Sheela Peryroyl, Shiallia, and Hanali Celanil) is very likely to quietly help Luthic protect orc women and children.
Sullivan 06-26-07, 03:23 PM	The dead ones? The destroyed odonti orcs were good, but are no more. Others are just individual good orcs, not a society of them. The ones in Chessenta and Thesk are social orc, which is not the same as good – they just are barbarians.
Wizardman 06-26-07, 06:04 PM	The destroyed odonti orcs were good, but are no more. The Ondonti haven't been completely annihilated, but they are fairly close to extinction. Eldath is keeping the rest of the free Ondonti hidden, and the Zhents are embarking on a breeding-and-indoctrination program with the remainder.
souldnce9 06-27-07, 02:46 AM	I was being sarcastic Wizardman
Wizardman 06-27-07, 03:10 AM	I was being sarcastic Wizardman My apologies.
souldnce9 06-27-07, 03:24 AM	No problem! :D
Zsych 06-27-07, 04:11 AM	I kinda think of Obould(? the orc leader in the Drizzt books), as good. He cares for his people. I think he probably respects other people, or would choose to, so as to be looked on well by the more tolerant goodly rulers. ... and under his guidance.. at least those orcs close to him, should be becoming less stupid and less obviously evil(as long as he has maintained some of the charisma of being one with his god).
Wizardman 06-27-07, 07:42 AM	I kinda think of Obould(? the orc leader in the Drizzt books), as good. He cares for his people. I think he probably respects other people, or would choose to, so as to be looked on well by the more tolerant goodly rulers. ... and under his guidance.. at least those orcs close to him, should be becoming less stupid and less obviously evil(as long as he has maintained some of the charisma of being one with his god). I have to disagree with your conclusion, but I am in full agreement with your general reasoning. My take on what Obould is doing is that he is making the orcs more civilized. Orc hordes are notoriously wild things, and are driven more by instinct than by conscious purpose. This is a part of what makes them dangerous, but also weakens them. Orc hordes are not cohesive units, but are a large group of individually powerful warriors fighting the same enemies but seldom truly working together. Obould is changing this. He's making them work together, and they are reaping the benefits. If he can hold on long enough to make sure that the lesson of cooperation takes hold, then he will have marked the North in a way that few leaders could ever dream of doing. The days of the orc horde will be over. The days of the orc army will have begun. What really tickles me about this scenario is that so far, neither side really seems to appreciate what is going on. I'm sure that Obould would be horrified if someone told him that he is civilizing the orcs, and if the leaders of the Silver Marches caught on to what's happening... Alustriel probably wouldn't just take him out even though she could (Khelben or the Simbul definitely would, but not Alustriel), Helm and the dwarves would likely prefer a direct military solution over assassination, and Kayl, Methrammar, and Taern also don't strike me as the types to favour assassination. In any case, I would be very surprised if R.A. Salvatore's next trilogy doesn't cover the Obould situation in some detail. The set-up is certainly there for it, and the promos definitely hint at it. (-- Well, Drizzt Do'Urden grasps some of it, but he doesn't quite seem to grok the difference between "civilization" and "community.")
runestar 06-27-07, 07:55 AM	I kinda think of Obould(? the orc leader in the Drizzt books), as good. He cares for his people. I think he probably respects other people, or would choose to, so as to be looked on well by the more tolerant goodly rulers. ... and under his guidance.. at least those orcs close to him, should be becoming less stupid and less obviously evil(as long as he has maintained some of the charisma of being one with his god). That would make him a good ruler, but "good" in this sense would be more effective with "effective", rather than in the alignment sense, IMO.:P We still do not know what his plans are. He wants to set up an orc nation, and perhaps even engage in trade with other countries. The other rulers would probably go along with it, seeing it as a matter of mutual benefit and pragmatism (better to at least get some money out of it, than having the orcs invade your territory and taking what they want). Is he truly content to just build up his nation peacefully? Or will he set his sights on conquering other nations once his armies are powerful enough? Considering the rate at which orcs reproduce, he will surely need more and more territory and resources as time goes by. That would be a disaster then. In the past, the orcs' inadequacy at strategy and war tactics was offset only by their physical prowess. Now imagine the both combined.:eek: The idea of a lawful orc nation intrigues me greatly, I must admit, considering how orcs have traditionally been portrayed as undisciplined savages.
Ilithar Starspiral 07-03-07, 08:34 AM	If memory doesn't fail me, wasn't there an orc paladin of Helm in War of Tethyr? His name was Shield. I think anyway. It's early in the morning right now, and I'm not firing on all cylinders.
MarkusTay63 07-03-07, 03:10 PM	If you read through the 2e stuff, as well as the Utter east, you can find hundreds of examples of Orcs living in peace with humans. In most other areas, especially the east, Orcs are just like barbarians. You only find the blood-thristy savages in The North. And BTW, the human barbarians above the Spine of the World behave exactly as the Orcs do, and even occassionally raid human villages alongside their Orcish neighbors. There is a tribe living in the far North of the Moonsea region that are peaceful farmers, and are called the Ondonti. I think the Zantarrim took them over, but they were useless as fighters - they're all pacifists, so they just use them as plantation slaves.
Wizardman 07-03-07, 05:26 PM	If memory doesn't fail me, wasn't there an orc paladin of Helm in War of Tethyr? His name was Shield. I think anyway. It's early in the morning right now, and I'm not firing on all cylinders. Very close. His full name was Shield of Innocence, and he was a paladin of Torm.
Stigger 07-03-07, 05:58 PM	He was an orog though, which aren't really 'typical' orcs... they're the orcs who will one day be able to integrate with the rest of the world, after tossing off the shackles of Grumpywhatshisface.
Wizardman 07-03-07, 06:11 PM	He was an orog though, which aren't really 'typical' orcs... they're the orcs who will one day be able to integrate with the rest of the world, after tossing off the shackles of Grumpywhatshisface. It does seem like Gruumsh is the one holding them back, isn't it? Those orcs that successfully integrate almost always seem to be the ones that throw off his worship. Maybe Obould is finally changing that, though. He worships Gruumsh, and he's civilizing his followers. I wonder what would happen to the pantheon if he were ever taken out of the picture. He doesn't have a natural successor. Luthic is a woman and because of that only Baghtru would accept her leadership; Baghtru is a) too stupid, and b) all too likely to be seen as Luthic's pawn (which, to be fair, he would be); and Shargaas, Ilneval, and Yurtrus would be at each other's throats.
Stigger 07-04-07, 03:53 PM	My own personal theory is that if they ever got rid of Grumpy then the religious strife that would tear apart the pantheon would probably reflect on their mortal followers and that the world would be free of hordes for a while longer while the orcs erupted into a holy war with each other... Though I doubt that Obould is going to be the one who manages to civilize the orcs. The system he's implemented to keep them in line, while good for the short term, doesn't sound like its likely to survive his death. Which is kinda the problem for ocs in general... they can succeed in the short term in terms of success, but their long term success is almost always doomed to fail given their racial tendencies towards violent self-destructive chaos... which while not that different from the drow, they don't have the intelligence by and large to compensate for the inherent flaws in their society.
creyzi4zb12 07-06-07, 11:59 AM	I kinda like evil orcs more than good ones. RAS made Obould a bit on the good (even tho he's evil) side because of his so called "honor". Vrakk on the other hand was as cool as he could get. I think he's an evil orc/good orc/I really don't know his alignment. But I think he really is evil coz he does consider himself as a "monster." Here are some cool lines I noted about Vrakk. =acts all stupid to save a girl from being arrested"I don't read Zhentish", "I'm too stupid to be working on bridge." ="If they treat us like monsters, then we be monsters." =When he betrays the evil citizens of Zhentil keep. "We're monsters. So we fight on the side of monsters." ="I'm a monster. Monsters don't need medals." BTW: Where can I find the Shield of Innocence fellow? What trilogy is he on? Is his role big?
MarkusTay63 07-06-07, 03:19 PM	Maybe we need a new Orcish god, one who is not quite so ugly, and espouses the virtues of peaceful co-existance (Okay, made a half-Orc god). We could call him OrcishDan, God of Quantum physics and tea parties. ;)
Sullivan 07-07-07, 11:35 AM	If you insist on having "good" orcs, then why not do to them what Star Trek Next Gen did to the Klingons; give them a fierce but coherent civilization that could be worked with, even if it was not easy. This does not turn them inside out, so to speak, it is more of an adjustment to perception.
MarkusTay63 07-07-07, 08:07 PM	LOL, thats exactly the ethnic group I'm basing my pre-drow Dark Elf articles on in the Elven Netbook. Fierce, blood-thirsty, competetative... yet strangely honorable. :)