Hell and Demonic Evolution [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hell and Demonic Evolution [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tmmp
05-01-07, 01:58 AM Hello all. I was thinking about running a Nine layers of Hell game for some of my friends. My question is on the evolution of demons. What book and how much experience or however it is done.

I just recently acquired the Fiendish codex Hordes of the Abyss, so i haven't read it completely But it is more about the ninety-nine layers of the abyss, which are interesting to say the least but I'm looking for something smaller to contain my devilish players. Fearun is almost as in depth as the layers of the abyss if not more so.

They are in fact going to be some sort of devils or other being of evil alignment that are in service to one of the various lords/organizations in hell.

I was thinking of Cania because I've always thought a constant weather effect adds to the games depth in some way. I may only allow low hit dice demons to be allowed as races however, i havent decided yet.

I'd like to start my characters off as Manes. page 45 of the codex. I find evolution into more powerful demons to reward the characts awsome. I want to make my game tough also, so i'm thinking of gestult to allow my players to have some glass features. but i'm not so sure just yet.

I was hoping to find a fan made evolution table. I think it would be cool to be able to calculate points/experience in volved in becomeing more powerful. for instance. Jacob a 1st level fighter mane Charges into the room full of human guards. Not caring for his own life, only wishing to deal out death and torment. For this evil and ferosious action he is given 3 "evil" points that go toward his evolution in transformation into a more powerful being.

I supose gold or items in trade to some creature or "evolution trainer" somewhere in the hells, to make this happen even faster could work. I expect some characters to progress further and in different directions than the others. ( strength means power, and there will be identifyable chains of command in the group)

If anyone knows of a thread where this is being descussed please link it.
ShadezofDis
05-01-07, 10:57 AM Just one note, Hell has Devils, the Abyss has Demons and they are embroiled in an eternal (so far anyhow) war.

So having Manes in Hell would mean having dead Manes in Hell, if you're going to run a Hell campaign then it'd be best to make them Devils :)
Mirtek
05-01-07, 05:33 PM The evolution of devils is strictly ordered and each station (aka specific species of devil) is there to teach a certain lesson. Promotion to the next higher form can only be archived by learning this lesson to the satisfaction of your superior in the hellish bureaucracy.

Some stages of the hierarchy also require a minimum amount of time (meassured in centuries) to be spend in the current form (in addition to having learned the lesson) before promotion is granted.

You can find which form of devil is ranked as which step of the hierarchy and which lesson has to be mastered before the next form becomes possible in: Faces of Evil: The Fiends.

And, like ShadezofDis said your players would start als lemures (which are devils) and not as manes (which are demons and would be killed on sight (or worse) if found in Hell)
tmmp
05-01-07, 06:49 PM Is the title you mentioned a actual book or pdf i can purchase? I'd like to have a system to guide me. Unless any of you have ideas.

And yes i will be starting them as devils since its the nine hells not the chaotic realm of the abyss. I find devils more interesting because of the lawful aspect and the desire to corrupt mortal souls.

It will allow for a more roleplay related adventure in the begining of my game, instead of my usual hack and slash.

I also think it will not be taking centurys to complete the verious missions that may lead to their evolutions.

I will try to find that book mentioned, but for now my question is what is the actual prosses by which a demon is transformed into a new high ranking one? Is it simply at the behest of a demon with a higher cr than it? Or is it a desition made by the planes of hell themselvs, and the current lord or being on concequence is somehow informed?

Though i suppose time can pass differently in the various planes.

Which brings me to another question. Is there a set time frame in the nine hells. Is it based on the time system of the nearest or most well known to the players material plane world?
If it is simply dm desretion i'll stick with the toril calendar.

My concern about time is that if centurys go by, the toril in the books i use for reference will be out dated if time on toril is the same as the nine hells.
Fingoldfin
05-02-07, 01:20 AM Faces of Evil is a great planescape book done by Colin McComb in 2e. It has flow charts that show the stations of Demons and devils, but it is mostly a flavor book. It is one of my favoite 2e books. It is being sold at trollandtoad.com for $70.00. It is a rare book that alot of people want. I don't think there is a free down load for it.
Mirtek
05-02-07, 02:43 AM Faces of Evil is a great planescape book done by Colin McComb in 2e. It has flow charts that show the stations of Demons and devils, but it is mostly a flavor book. It is one of my favoite 2e books. It is being sold at trollandtoad.com for $70.00. It is a rare book that alot of people want. I don't think there is a free down load for it.
You can also get it for just $5 at DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=17295) as PDF download.
Mirtek
05-02-07, 02:46 AM I will try to find that book mentioned, but for now my question is what is the actual prosses by which a demon is transformed into a new high ranking one? Is it simply at the behest of a demon with a higher cr than it? Or is it a desition made by the planes of hell themselvs, and the current lord or being on concequence is somehow informed?
For the chaotic demons it can be any of the three:

a) strong enough will of the lower demon to evolve on his own
b) being promoted by a more powerfull demon
c) simply growing stronger because the plane seems to want it

There are no rules and no standard way in the primal chaos of the abyss.

Devils advance only like I described: By following the strict rules of the hellish hierarchy and with a nod from their superior.
Fingoldfin
05-02-07, 02:58 AM The hierarchy of Baatezu(devils) is divided into three ranks; Least, Lesser,
and Greater. Each rank is further divided into a number of stations. The first
rank of Baatezu is Least which is composed of Nupperibo, Lemure, and
Spinagon.

When Lawful Evil natives of the prime material plain die thier souls
spawn on the first layer of the Nine Hells as Nupperibo. As soon as possible
the Greater Baatezu change the Nupperibo into Lemures. Lemures are the
mindless rank-and-file fodder of Baartor(Hell). They die by the millions in the
Blood War against the Demons. Some Lemure survive long enough to get
a promotion to the station of Spinagon.

I would start the PC's as Spinagon because Nupperibo and Lemure are
mindless and are treated like cattle (herded and branded) by higher ranking
Baatezu. Spinagon are the messengers and information-gatherers of Hell.
Spinagon is the first station in which Baatezu learn a lesson: "It's best to
succeed early."

Most Spinagon get promoted to the next station, Abishai, but if he is
cunning and serves well a Spinagon can skip an entire rank and become a
Greater Baatezu. This is very rare. Spinagon can be promoted to the station
of Abishai(any color), Barbazu, Osyluth, Hamatula, or even Amnizu.
Fingoldfin
05-02-07, 03:12 AM If you would like me to do a posting for Lesser and Greater Baatezu it will take alot more time. Those ranks are more complicated, new devils were added in 3e that are not in the flow chart, and the names and stations of some devils were changed from 2e to 3e.
Fingoldfin
05-02-07, 03:19 AM You can also get it for just $5 at DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=17295) as PDF download.

Thanks for the link.
Shemeska the Marauder
05-02-07, 03:39 AM http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baatezu%20Promotion.JPG

That's the original promotion scheme for Baatezu (devils). I strongly suggest buying a copy of Faces of Evil if you're going to be working heavily with the fiends. The download is like $5 as folks have suggested, and it's one of the IMO best books written for D&D in any edition of the game.

The most recent book on the topic, Fiendish Codex II, contains a derivative of that map that expands it to include some new devils (but inexplicable omits a number of devils at the same time, and it does some funky stuff with Erinyes, but it's a decent book, so I'll leave you to judge the sources for yourself and use which you feel is more appropriate).
tmmp
05-02-07, 10:11 PM thank you i will look into purchasing the pdf tommarow. Thanks for the help all i really appreciate it.

And so will my devilish players.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tmmp 05-01-07, 01:58 AM	Hello all. I was thinking about running a Nine layers of Hell game for some of my friends. My question is on the evolution of demons. What book and how much experience or however it is done. I just recently acquired the Fiendish codex Hordes of the Abyss, so i haven't read it completely But it is more about the ninety-nine layers of the abyss, which are interesting to say the least but I'm looking for something smaller to contain my devilish players. Fearun is almost as in depth as the layers of the abyss if not more so. They are in fact going to be some sort of devils or other being of evil alignment that are in service to one of the various lords/organizations in hell. I was thinking of Cania because I've always thought a constant weather effect adds to the games depth in some way. I may only allow low hit dice demons to be allowed as races however, i havent decided yet. I'd like to start my characters off as Manes. page 45 of the codex. I find evolution into more powerful demons to reward the characts awsome. I want to make my game tough also, so i'm thinking of gestult to allow my players to have some glass features. but i'm not so sure just yet. I was hoping to find a fan made evolution table. I think it would be cool to be able to calculate points/experience in volved in becomeing more powerful. for instance. Jacob a 1st level fighter mane Charges into the room full of human guards. Not caring for his own life, only wishing to deal out death and torment. For this evil and ferosious action he is given 3 "evil" points that go toward his evolution in transformation into a more powerful being. I supose gold or items in trade to some creature or "evolution trainer" somewhere in the hells, to make this happen even faster could work. I expect some characters to progress further and in different directions than the others. ( strength means power, and there will be identifyable chains of command in the group) If anyone knows of a thread where this is being descussed please link it.
ShadezofDis 05-01-07, 10:57 AM	Just one note, Hell has Devils, the Abyss has Demons and they are embroiled in an eternal (so far anyhow) war. So having Manes in Hell would mean having dead Manes in Hell, if you're going to run a Hell campaign then it'd be best to make them Devils :)
Mirtek 05-01-07, 05:33 PM	The evolution of devils is strictly ordered and each station (aka specific species of devil) is there to teach a certain lesson. Promotion to the next higher form can only be archived by learning this lesson to the satisfaction of your superior in the hellish bureaucracy. Some stages of the hierarchy also require a minimum amount of time (meassured in centuries) to be spend in the current form (in addition to having learned the lesson) before promotion is granted. You can find which form of devil is ranked as which step of the hierarchy and which lesson has to be mastered before the next form becomes possible in: Faces of Evil: The Fiends. And, like ShadezofDis said your players would start als lemures (which are devils) and not as manes (which are demons and would be killed on sight (or worse) if found in Hell)
tmmp 05-01-07, 06:49 PM	Is the title you mentioned a actual book or pdf i can purchase? I'd like to have a system to guide me. Unless any of you have ideas. And yes i will be starting them as devils since its the nine hells not the chaotic realm of the abyss. I find devils more interesting because of the lawful aspect and the desire to corrupt mortal souls. It will allow for a more roleplay related adventure in the begining of my game, instead of my usual hack and slash. I also think it will not be taking centurys to complete the verious missions that may lead to their evolutions. I will try to find that book mentioned, but for now my question is what is the actual prosses by which a demon is transformed into a new high ranking one? Is it simply at the behest of a demon with a higher cr than it? Or is it a desition made by the planes of hell themselvs, and the current lord or being on concequence is somehow informed? Though i suppose time can pass differently in the various planes. Which brings me to another question. Is there a set time frame in the nine hells. Is it based on the time system of the nearest or most well known to the players material plane world? If it is simply dm desretion i'll stick with the toril calendar. My concern about time is that if centurys go by, the toril in the books i use for reference will be out dated if time on toril is the same as the nine hells.
Fingoldfin 05-02-07, 01:20 AM	Faces of Evil is a great planescape book done by Colin McComb in 2e. It has flow charts that show the stations of Demons and devils, but it is mostly a flavor book. It is one of my favoite 2e books. It is being sold at trollandtoad.com for $70.00. It is a rare book that alot of people want. I don't think there is a free down load for it.
Mirtek 05-02-07, 02:43 AM	Faces of Evil is a great planescape book done by Colin McComb in 2e. It has flow charts that show the stations of Demons and devils, but it is mostly a flavor book. It is one of my favoite 2e books. It is being sold at trollandtoad.com for $70.00. It is a rare book that alot of people want. I don't think there is a free down load for it. You can also get it for just $5 at DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=17295) as PDF download.
Mirtek 05-02-07, 02:46 AM	I will try to find that book mentioned, but for now my question is what is the actual prosses by which a demon is transformed into a new high ranking one? Is it simply at the behest of a demon with a higher cr than it? Or is it a desition made by the planes of hell themselvs, and the current lord or being on concequence is somehow informed? For the chaotic demons it can be any of the three: a) strong enough will of the lower demon to evolve on his own b) being promoted by a more powerfull demon c) simply growing stronger because the plane seems to want it There are no rules and no standard way in the primal chaos of the abyss. Devils advance only like I described: By following the strict rules of the hellish hierarchy and with a nod from their superior.
Fingoldfin 05-02-07, 02:58 AM	The hierarchy of Baatezu(devils) is divided into three ranks; Least, Lesser, and Greater. Each rank is further divided into a number of stations. The first rank of Baatezu is Least which is composed of Nupperibo, Lemure, and Spinagon. When Lawful Evil natives of the prime material plain die thier souls spawn on the first layer of the Nine Hells as Nupperibo. As soon as possible the Greater Baatezu change the Nupperibo into Lemures. Lemures are the mindless rank-and-file fodder of Baartor(Hell). They die by the millions in the Blood War against the Demons. Some Lemure survive long enough to get a promotion to the station of Spinagon. I would start the PC's as Spinagon because Nupperibo and Lemure are mindless and are treated like cattle (herded and branded) by higher ranking Baatezu. Spinagon are the messengers and information-gatherers of Hell. Spinagon is the first station in which Baatezu learn a lesson: "It's best to succeed early." Most Spinagon get promoted to the next station, Abishai, but if he is cunning and serves well a Spinagon can skip an entire rank and become a Greater Baatezu. This is very rare. Spinagon can be promoted to the station of Abishai(any color), Barbazu, Osyluth, Hamatula, or even Amnizu.
Fingoldfin 05-02-07, 03:12 AM	If you would like me to do a posting for Lesser and Greater Baatezu it will take alot more time. Those ranks are more complicated, new devils were added in 3e that are not in the flow chart, and the names and stations of some devils were changed from 2e to 3e.
Fingoldfin 05-02-07, 03:19 AM	You can also get it for just $5 at DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=17295) as PDF download. Thanks for the link.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-02-07, 03:39 AM	http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baatezu%20Promotion.JPG That's the original promotion scheme for Baatezu (devils). I strongly suggest buying a copy of Faces of Evil if you're going to be working heavily with the fiends. The download is like $5 as folks have suggested, and it's one of the IMO best books written for D&D in any edition of the game. The most recent book on the topic, Fiendish Codex II, contains a derivative of that map that expands it to include some new devils (but inexplicable omits a number of devils at the same time, and it does some funky stuff with Erinyes, but it's a decent book, so I'll leave you to judge the sources for yourself and use which you feel is more appropriate).
tmmp 05-02-07, 10:11 PM	thank you i will look into purchasing the pdf tommarow. Thanks for the help all i really appreciate it. And so will my devilish players.