| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Eladrinstar03-29-07, 06:01 PM | the High Moor was apparently washed with life by high magic in the events of Blackstaff. Does this mean it is now a lush landscape? I hope it isn't a forest now, because two High Forests would get confusing. Also, I know Blackstaff happens late in the Year of Lightning Storms, so the sharn in Depth's of Madness makes since if it happened early that year. But doesn't Depths happen in the Year of Risen Elfkin? I think it did, but my friend is borrowing that book right now so I can't tell. |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 06:50 PM | the High Moor was apparently washed with life by high magic in the events of Blackstaff. Does this mean it is now a lush landscape? I hope it isn't a forest now, because two High Forests would get confusing. -I believe that it is a lightly forested temperate area, now. Also, I know Blackstaff happens late in the Year of Lightning Storms, so the sharn in Depth's of Madness makes since if it happened early that year. But doesn't Depths happen in the Year of Risen Elfkin? I think it did, but my friend is borrowing that book right now so I can't tell. -Not all Sharn became "normal" again. There are still other Sharn out there, persuing their "individual" goals. I have yet to read that novel, but the events of Blackstaff won't contradict the events in Depths of Madness (unless there was some very poor author-to-author communication). |
| Old Sage03-29-07, 08:04 PM | I have yet to read that novel, but the events of Blackstaff won't contradict the events in Depths of Madness (unless there was some very poor author-to-author communication).That certainly wasn't the case. |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 08:11 PM | -That makes me feel better, then. |
| dragonheart03-30-07, 07:30 PM | -Not all Sharn became "normal" again. There are still other Sharn out there, persuing their "individual" goals. I have yet to read that novel, but the events of Blackstaff won't contradict the events in Depths of Madness (unless there was some very poor author-to-author communication). Quite correct - any sharn that included dark elves retained their sharn status as those elves would become drow if they converted back. While the area more or less immediately aroud the hidden city is now in better condition and the moor is generally somewhat less poisonous the vast majority of the moor is still moor not forest. but now think of it as a decent scottish moor not some near poisonous swamp that is trying to decide whether to freeze solid or not as it was before. |
| Lord Karsus03-30-07, 11:48 PM | Quite correct - any sharn that included dark elves retained their sharn status as those elves would become drow if they converted back. -A notion I dislike greatly, but is still true, none the less. |
| HVulpes03-31-07, 07:57 AM | I believe that Stephen mentioned that the area aound the city is pleasent, but the moor still exists and will exist for years as the magic allows life to return to that area. Perhaps just a couple of feet or inches each year. Try checking out Stephen's replies at Candlekeep on Blackstaff. |
| Calmar03-31-07, 08:50 AM | Have the sharn been elves? |
| Lord Karsus03-31-07, 05:47 PM | Have the sharn been elves? -It was all explained in Blackstaff. In short, many Elves were (and still are) Sharn, but not all Sharn are/were Elves. |
| Old Sage03-31-07, 08:06 PM | I'll let Steven Schend answer this... "Realized I'd never answered this comment/question....my bad. The sharn were made of composite survivors and/or willing entrants who sacrificed their lives and knowledge to join the collective sharn. (Strange that a few years AFTER Ed, Eric, and I had discussed the sharn as one big collective underdark LAKE of sharnstuff that splintered off pieces to make individual sharn, Star Trek DS9 had the same idea for the Founders/shapeshifters.) No, not all the sharn came from the events in Chapter 20, though every living being in that Pentad enclave became sharn. The original sharn were the lorelords and such of Miyeritar--the 3 High Mages and the 80 that entered the storms as noted in a few places in the timelines. They took in a few other survivors who didn't get mentioned in elven histories, like the guards and scouts of Miyeritar--the centaurs. Over time, I figure there's been a few who've been offered salvation from certain death by joining the sharn, and a few folk of Uvaeren, Eaerlann, Ascalhorn, and many many other realms joined the collective. Thus, Rhymanthiin is going to be a hotbed of historical knowledge as there are now living denizens of many lost realms who can correct or compile information on places that have little (or perhaps have even been forgotten) detail. Does this help clarify things, Knight? Or just add more questions, as any good designer does? Steven Who highly recommends the very odd movie LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE to anyone who can attend R-rated movies" And - "It's inherently possible that some of the sharn could have been Netherese, just as they could have been refugees or survivors of any civilization that had a precipitous or sudden fall (i.e. Uvaeren, Ammarindar, villages stomped by the Black Hordes, etc.)." |
| Krash04-01-07, 03:07 AM | -A notion I dislike greatly, but is still true, none the less. Ah, c'mon LK we all KNOW that the Ilythiiri were evil.:) They deserved what they got, every elf-jack of them. Even the ones who weren't 'evil' in the alignment sense of the word let the ones that were do all the nasty things they did. The non-Ilythiiri dark elves (i.e. the few survivors of Miyeritar) didn't hold onto the good ideals that had been instrumental in their society after the Dark Disaster. Trust me.;) -- George Krashos |
| Zireael04-02-07, 07:16 AM | So why not free these drow out of sharn? They'd be the drow, for there are no "dark elves" as in Miyeritar, but they could make some mess in North. |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-02-07, 09:07 AM | well, isn't the High Moor, still the High Moor? There is just an ancient elven magical city hidden somewhere within its boundaries, which holds secrets from the past which could change the face of Faerun forever, and reveal secrets which could (and probably will...ah, editing... heh heh :rolleyes: ) rewrite the histroy books |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 10:46 AM | Ah, c'mon LK we all KNOW that the Ilythiiri were evil.:) They deserved what they got, every elf-jack of them. Even the ones who weren't 'evil' in the alignment sense of the word let the ones that were do all the nasty things they did. The non-Ilythiiri dark elves (i.e. the few survivors of Miyeritar) didn't hold onto the good ideals that had been instrumental in their society after the Dark Disaster. Trust me.;) -- George Krashos -At first I felt the same way, but MarkusTay has let some of his Drow love leech into me. I just don't like the notion that, even after all these years have passed, Corellon cannot and will not accept back his children who were not outright even (the Neutral and Good Ilythiiri)- especially those that were the Sharn, who worked with the deity and his consort themselves, to further Elven goals. But, hey, that's just me. |
| GothicDan04-02-07, 11:06 AM | Corellon has Dark Elven clergy, and there's a High Magic Ritual that can turn a Drow into a surface Elven race. That's good enough redemption for me. :) |
| Karsus the Mad04-02-07, 11:55 AM | Ah, c'mon LK we all KNOW that the Ilythiiri were evil. They deserved what they got, every elf-jack of them. Even the ones who weren't 'evil' in the alignment sense of the word let the ones that were do all the nasty things they did. The non-Ilythiiri dark elves (i.e. the few survivors of Miyeritar) didn't hold onto the good ideals that had been instrumental in their society after the Dark Disaster. Trust me. -- George Krashos Just like all the sun elves that allowed the Vyshan to do what they did, Hmmmm?;) Corellon has Dark Elven clergy, and there's a High Magic Ritual that can turn a Drow into a surface Elven race. That's good enough redemption for me. :) There's two rituals, both of which would prolly need to be cast to completely "revert" a drow. Akh’Faen’Tel’Quess/ “Life of Duty, Form of the People’s Need”: This ritual, the most intensely private of all rituals, alters the form of an elf into any living elf race or subrace. The elf becomes one of another elf race (including the lost avariel) physically, but not mentally. And Suyoll/ “The Revival”: This ritual restores an elf’s life, health, and harmony with the Weave. This is seen as an acceptance back into the community of elves, despite any changes that occur during the elf’s life (or death). This ritual restores an elf’s natural state, neutralizing all ill or unnatural effects upon him. It cancels curses of any nature other than those divinely placed (i.e., personally inflicted by a god) and spell effects such as petrification and polymorph. Suyoll allows the regrowth of full limbs, muscles, and organs (such as eyes, tongue, etc.). It also negates any magical or nonvoluntary alignment changes. The most advanced form of this ritual involves the restoration of undead elves to a living state as they were 100 years before their deaths or transformations. DM’s Note: This ritual is rarely used, for the elves are a stubborn lot and forgiveness is not a virtue they practice often. Thus, any outcast elf or seriously injured elf is often perceived as pitiful or as a fool who learned his lesson for straying away from the path of elvenkind. However, great sacrifices made for sake of a clan or kingdom are looked upon proudly, and the suyoll is invoked to honor heroes who act in such interests. This ritual can even restore a drow to status among the Tel’Quessir, though the ritual erases all powers (but not appearance) of the drow (judge as a moon elf). |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 12:57 PM | Corellon has Dark Elven clergy, and there's a High Magic Ritual that can turn a Drow into a surface Elven race. That's good enough redemption for me. :) -Not really. So, the thousands of years of servitude these Sharn-Dark Elves have done count for nothing? They can either continue to exist as Sharn, or they can try to become "normal" once more, but immediatley be cursed upon transformation. Like I've said somewhere else, Corellon really should try to welcome the Drow back into his arms, not push them away (as he has done, and continues to do so). |
| GothicDan04-02-07, 02:38 PM | Just like all the sun elves that allowed the Vyshan to do what they did, Hmmmm? The main difference was the Aryvandaari by far and large didn't know what the Vyshaanti were doing. The Dark Elves of Ilythiiri were open with their demonic patronage and use of non-Elven methods of warfare (burning down forests and torture). Warfare wasn't un-Elven. The WAYS in which wars were fought were un-Elven, and as soon as they DID find out how the Vyshaanti were gaining secret power, they went against them unanimously. |
| GothicDan04-02-07, 02:39 PM | -Not really. So, the thousands of years of servitude these Sharn-Dark Elves have done count for nothing? They can either continue to exist as Sharn, or they can try to become "normal" once more, but immediatley be cursed upon transformation. Like I've said somewhere else, Corellon really should try to welcome the Drow back into his arms, not push them away (as he has done, and continues to do so). That would make Eilistraee a bit superfluous, wouldn't it? I think he's letting his favorite daughter do her thing. And if the spoilers I've read about the most recent Drow novels are an indicator, she's starting to do her thing with surprising success, lately. Who's to say Eilistraee won't lead hundreds of Drow back into her father's arms? |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 04:07 PM | Warfare wasn't un-Elven. -In fact, Warfare is Elven, as Corellon Larethian is a "martial deity", among other things. That would make Eilistraee a bit superfluous, wouldn't it? I think he's letting his favorite daughter do her thing. And if the spoilers I've read about the most recent Drow novels are an indicator, she's starting to do her thing with surprising success, lately. Who's to say Eilistraee won't lead hundreds of Drow back into her father's arms? -Eilistraee already is a little superfluous. That's okay, thoug, 'cause I like her none the less, to a degree. But, where'd you read that? If you are referring to the Lady Pentient trilogy, it gives no indication (to me, anyway), that Eilistraee has suddenly had a boom in the number of worshippers she has. |
| Prince Indirian04-03-07, 03:05 PM | LK; have you been reading the Book of exalted Deeds or something...I mean you're GOOD (in the alignment sense) :D. I mean sure Karsus had good intentions (concerning his little Folly) but as far as I know he was LN. Jokes aside, it's a little weird that CL has this absent this issue (despite the few dark elven clerics he has). It's a little interesting that a minority (the miyertari dark elves) were responsible for what the majority (Illithyr dark elves) did. As if the Miyertary could actually do anything while at war with the formidable Aryvandaar. Thats like blaming the Russian resistance forces (that fought Hitler) for what the Red Army did or didn't do. Shortly put. That's like blaming the Finns (who were fighting against the Russians, who wanted subjugate them) for what the Germans (who aided the Finns against the Russians, while the rest of the world were looking at the Finland's near demise) did during WW2. Or the other elven nations "silence" (though they Keltormir opened their arms for miyertary refugees) when aryvandaar attacked Miyertar etc. My point is I don't believe one should blame the miyertar for what Illithyr for these reasons (in addition to those mentioned above) 1. They were at war with a vastly superior (in military terms) foe. So what would they do ? It's quite likely that they were busy...fighting the enemy. Also note that Illithyr claimed they came to their aid...when nobody else did. So of course they wouldn't condemn at least in the beginning, if at all. Afterwards might have been another issue, when the Illithyr showed their true face, but ask yourselves would that have made any difference ? Assume also that at this time the Miyertari were fighting a guerilla war, so their goverment would only be able to make limited announcements. Though I agree they were likely not ver pleasant after the Descent, but ask who would be just that. 2. It would be hypocritical to blame them for what Illithyr did. Because with same argumentation one could blame all those that LET Aryvandaar attack and subjugate and LET them use the Dark Disaster spell. Also the same could be said about the Seldarine who LET all this happen in the first place. Just note that I do believe that there is great truth in these words "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke Though in this case it's hard to argue for it...LOL, this reminds me of those infamous "Paladin eat baby threads" back in the days. The main difference was the Aryvandaari by far and large didn't know what the Vyshaanti were doing. The Dark Elves of Ilythiiri were open with their demonic patronage and use of non-Elven methods of warfare (burning down forests and torture). Well they knew, but they didn't care, I mean it was obvious the Vyshaan were killing and occupying a nation-state and clearly the people of that nation-state did not want Vyshaan rule, which a CG population should understand if they are somewhat intelligent...which the Aryvaanday certainly were. Warfare wasn't un-Elven. The WAYS in which wars were fought were un-Elven, and as soon as they DID find out how the Vyshaanti were gaining secret power, they went against them unanimously. Yes (concerning warfare in elven culture), but Wars against elves sure isn't...with VAST amounts of enemies the elves have fighting among themselves sounds...a little to much. I do not think Correllon intended that elves should do that. And the Dark Disaster wasn't directly an elven way of fighting. And that spell has shaped elven history as much the descent. Regardless of that the Vyshaan had some very substantial support among the Aryvandaari, otherwise it would not have taken the combined power of the rest of elven-kind to take down Aryvandaar (which it took). With that said I know there some that didn't agree with Aryvandaar, like the Durothils... Just my 2 cents |
| GothicDan04-03-07, 03:15 PM | I dunno. Both LEoF and Elaine's own words imply/state that the other Sun Elves did NOT know of the depths of the Vyshaan's corruption. That's enough for me. :) And the Dark Disaster wasn't directly an elven way of fighting. And that spell has shaped elven history as much the descent. That's correct. And it was performed by the Vyshaanti High Magi specifically. |
| createvmind04-03-07, 03:31 PM | Goth didn't say she gained more followers during the recent drow-godwar but she definitely has raised her stock with those who either must turn to her or to Lloth. Not much of a choice there particularly for male drow who may have followed the male deities and now must turn to one of these two. It goes without saying she will obviously gain more followers simply being the "lesser evil" in the eyes of male drow. |
| Karsus the Mad04-03-07, 03:50 PM | Well they knew, but they didn't care, I mean it was obvious the Vyshaan were killing and occupying a nation-state and clearly the people of that nation-state did not want Vyshaan rule, which a CG population should understand if they are somewhat intelligent...which the Aryvaanday certainly were. I dunno. Both LEoF and Elaine's own words imply/state that the other Sun Elves did NOT know of the depths of the Vyshaan's corruption. That's enough for me. :) Thus the reason I didn't reply. There's no use in arguing the faults of sun elves with someone who won't see their faults (it's just as bad trying to explain Netherese faults with Zysch...). LEoF neither states nor implies. It blatantly states the fact that the Vyshaantar (the name of Aryvandaar after the Vyshan took power) high mages are responsible for the Dark Disaster. The Vyshaan were waging war and slaughtering other elves long before any outside corruption. The rest of Aryvandaar elves knew this, as they were the ones actually doing it. Knowing the level of corruption (which btw, was not an issue, as the Vyshaan were not "corrupted" while persuing the first war. They did it all of their own greed) doesn't change the facts. They tried to annex Miyeritar at first by peaceful means, but grew tired and begain raiding, then all out war. They then threatened Shantel Othreir to accept occupation or suffer the same fate (which if the first part wasn't obvious to sun elves, then this must have been, otherwise they made a mistake giving sun elves a +2 Int.). Malkizid didn't become the secret patron of the Vyshaan until centuries after the first crown war ended. The Vyshaan were greedy buggers, and the rest of the sun elves allowed it, knowingly, to continue. If the innocent Dark Elves of other nations are guilty for what the Ilythiiri dark elves did (and Correllon seems to think so), one has to wonder why other sun elves aren't guilty for what Aryvandaaran sun elves knowingly did. I don't believe that should be the case, but then neither do I feel non-Ilythiiri dark elves (especially those who were "the good guys") should be punished. The whole thing smells of blind idolization. That's correct. And it was performed by the Vyshaanti High Magi specifically. No, it was Vyshaantar high mages. Vyshaantar was what Aryvandaar came to be known as. |
| Kerym Ammath04-03-07, 04:24 PM | It reflects real life in a way. As long as you were killing in "Gods" or "Corellon's" name it was all cool. The second you decide to jump ship and start worshipping someone else (because obviously the big C was choosing sides) you get cursed for eternity, and are the worst kind of traitor. History is written by the victors, and lets remember that for much of the FR's existence it has been written from the point of view of an individual in the realms. I am not trying to defend the Drow, but lets face it their creation and the obvious lack of any sort of comparable punishment for those who were carrying on similar atrocities really does not hold up under impartial scrutiny. |
| GothicDan04-03-07, 08:58 PM | LEoF says that the Vyshaanti family members fell to levels of such depravity. In contrast, it talks about how multiple Ilythiiri families did the same. That's the contrast I was noting - and the one that Elaine seemed to imply in one of her own responses on these fora. I really don't think the other Sun Elves allowed it, knowingly. If they HAD, they wouldn't have waited until the end to condemn all of the Vyshaanti to death. While your average Aryvandaari might not have been purely 'Good,' I wouldn't consider him 'Evil,' either. Lawful Neutral, perhaps. The fact that Aryvandaar was in no way singled out as being greedy, corrupt, or evil in any way BEFORE the rise of House Vyshaan is a good indicator of the mood of the nation as a whole, rather than that under the rule of a specific House. (And by corrupt, here, I don't necessarily mean corrupted by extraplanar influences - just filled with a typically non-Elven mindset or spirit.) If you want to go on and call me a Sun Elven sympathizer, go right ahead. It doesn't make me think my sentiments are any less logical; it only antagonizes the argument overall, rather than actually tackling the issues at hand. It's a good mudslinging tactic, though. The banishment of the Ilythiiri versus the execution of the Vyshaanti makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I WOULD be curious about is the fact that ALL Drow were affected by the Descent - but LEoF makes it obvious that this wasn't the original intent of the Ritual. And this goes into my theory of Lolth personally messing up the Ritual to affect ALL Dark Elves, to give her a greater potential follower pool (which would tie in with her former role as goddess of fate). |
| Lord Karsus04-03-07, 10:34 PM | And this goes into my theory of Lolth personally messing up the Ritual to affect ALL Dark Elves, to give her a greater potential follower pool (which would tie in with her former role as goddess of fate). -Actually, I was thinking the same way. It would also be a good way for Lolth to "spite" Corellon, as well. |
| Kerym Ammath04-03-07, 11:07 PM | If that was the case why did he do nothing about it. Corellon sat by as millions of innocents were cursed by his judgement. In my mind it is once again an example of making a square peg fit in a round hole. If he did condone such an act how can he even try to represent himself as being "GOOD". |
| boards04-04-07, 08:23 AM | While it would be nice to see the dark elves of Miryertar have the curse lifted by Corellon where is he meant to stop. Does he transform those who follow Ellistrae on the surface, what about those who strive to be good among the drow of Cormanthor, or those who are good in the underdark. By lifting the curse from one lot he then ignores the others which is really no better than not lifting any. Just my :twocents: |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 10:17 AM | Maybe Corellon couldn't do anything about it because Lolth still had some direct sway over the fate of Dark Elves, since they were her 'speciality.' Or maybe she was actually sneaky and intelligent about it. Or maybe Corellon was caught up in funneling the massive power needed for the ritual. Or so on. They're divine events; not easy for any of us to explain. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-04-07, 10:26 AM | The idea of a lawful neutral elf makes me want to vomit. Of course, most goldelves make me throw up just a little. Ah well, they are mortals just like the rest. All are allowed thier own path, as it should be.:D |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 10:27 AM | Your face makes me want to vomit! /Immature Lawful Neutral Gold Elf |
| BrennonGoldeye04-04-07, 11:02 AM | Your face makes me want to vomit! /Immature Lawful Neutral Gold Elf :rofl: :rofl: :heehee :rofl: :rofl: Ah, opinions are just like Gold Elves, everybody hates at least one......ROFL |
| Krash04-04-07, 11:04 AM | Just like all the sun elves that allowed the Vyshan to do what they did, Hmmmm?;) I don't think they allowed or consented to anything. The Vyshaan rulers of Aryvandaar justified their actions in terms of fighting the great evil that was Ilythiir. As the Ilythiiri openly worshipped evil gods and used fire and other assorted nasty attacks to do away with three elven realms or so, it's easy to understand why Vyshaan actions were considered okay in the times and political circumstances that then prevailed. We only have to look at our own world history in the last 60 or so years to see a myriad of similar examples. The worst thing the Vyshaan did was unleash the Dark Disaster. I personally think that a rogue element (within the Vyshaan) was responsible for this. This attack on Miyeritar gained them nothing - they had already annexed and controlled the realm militarily. Why destroy it totally? The Vyshaan were eventually overthrown - as most evil tyrannical ruling entities usually are. It may have taken a while, but they got what they deserved in the end. The people of Aryvandaar were probably blind and weak for not seeing their rulers' true colors, but that's a criticism that could be levelled at many a people and society, not all of them in the Forgotten Realms. -- George Krashos |
| Krash04-04-07, 11:07 AM | It's a little interesting that a minority (the miyertari dark elves) were responsible for what the majority (Illithyr dark elves) did. As if the Miyertary could actually do anything while at war with the formidable Aryvandaar. Thats like blaming the Russian resistance forces (that fought Hitler) for what the Red Army did or didn't do. Shortly put. That's like blaming the Finns (who were fighting against the Russians, who wanted subjugate them) for what the Germans (who aided the Finns against the Russians, while the rest of the world were looking at the Finland's near demise) did during WW2. Or the other elven nations "silence" (though they Keltormir opened their arms for miyertary refugees) when aryvandaar attacked Miyertar etc. My point is I don't believe one should blame the miyertar for what Illithyr for these reasons (in addition to those mentioned above) <SNIP> Some very good points made here. History will respond to some of the points you've made. In a grand fashion at that.:) -- George Krashos |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 11:08 AM | And... I agree with Krashos! :) In older sources, the Dark Disaster wasn't even specifically tagged onto any given side in the Crown Wars at all. I rather wish it had stayed that way in modern lore - more of a mystery. And even Aryvandaar's first openly 'aggressive' actions towards Miyeritar were only made after centuries of peaceful diplomatic negotiations. If the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar had truly been evil and corrupt, there would have been no reason for the Vyshaan to even attempt peaceful overtures at all; they would have attacked immediately. For they proved, in time, that they obviously had the military might to decimate Miyeritar, when they so desired. Man, I wish LEoF had been about three times as long... :( I really love the age of the ancient Elven civilizations. |
| Karsus the Mad04-04-07, 04:41 PM | I'll throw in some speculations here, which may or may not be my own:embarrass I don't think they allowed or consented to anything. Some might say they did, as they were the bulk of the soldiers, mages, and national support that went along with it. They may not have jumped up and said "Sure master, go slaughter our brethren over land." but by following orders and doing the actual slaughtering themselves, they did indeed allow and consent to everything. There's obviously a deeper complexity to take into account, but that's the gist from my view. Note: I'm talking about Aryvandaaran elves specifically, not elves in general. The Vyshaan rulers of Aryvandaar justified their actions in terms of fighting the great evil that was Ilythiir. I'm confused. The Vyshaan had already conquered Miyeritar and were persuing similar goals towards Shantel Othreir, and that action is the one the Ilythiri used to justify their aggression to "revenge our brothers in Miyeritar.". I don't see anything suggesting they used Ilythiir as their justification for their actions. Unless I'm completely blind and not seeing something, which is always possible. As the Ilythiiri openly worshipped evil gods and used fire and other assorted nasty attacks to do away with three elven realms or so, it's easy to understand why Vyshaan actions were considered okay in the times and political circumstances that then prevailed. That would be understandable if what the Vyshaan did happened after Ilythiir aggression. As it is, the Vyshaan went on the offensive before Ilythiir got involved. The Ilythiiri didn't even openly worship evil gods until after the 3rd Crown War and the Dark Disaster. I easily see the Vyshaan using the Ilythiiri as an excuse after the Ilythiiri went on the offensive, but before? This attack on Miyeritar gained them nothing - they had already annexed and controlled the realm militarily. Why destroy it totally? Fear, a show of power, because they were lunatics?:) Who knows the inner workings of madmen:). Why blow up islands with nukes? Or infect populations with disease? To test their effectiveness as a weapon. Just speculation of course, but maybe it was a similar thing: testing of a potential and new power. You don't test a prototype on your enemy's territory, in the event it doesn't work. You test it within the area you control. It might have been a test that got out of hand, which often happens when powerful High Magic is utilized. The worst thing the Vyshaan did was unleash the Dark Disaster. I personally think that a rogue element (within the Vyshaan) was responsible for this. It says Vyshaantar (Aryvandaar), not Vyshaanti (ruling clan). It could easily have been rogue high mages. All that does tho' is make corruption and evil within Aryvandaar not limited to the Vyshaan clan, thus responsibility for Aryvandaar shouldn't be laid soley at the feet of the Vyshaan clan. And if that's the case Ah, c'mon LK we all KNOW that the Ilythiiri were evil. They deserved what they got, every elf-jack of them. Even the ones who weren't 'evil' in the alignment sense of the word let the ones that were do all the nasty things they did. If evil affected some outside of the Vyshaan clan, it can affect all, and all Aryvandaaran elves should have been punished, even the ones who weren't evil, as they let the ones that were do all the nasty things they did:evillaugh: Ok, so I'm not actually being serious, but there is a point there. The Vyshaan were eventually overthrown - as most evil tyrannical ruling entities usually are. It may have taken a while, but they got what they deserved in the end. That they did. The people of Aryvandaar were probably blind and weak for not seeing their rulers' true colors, but that's a criticism that could be levelled at many a people and society, not all of them in the Forgotten Realms. And it is a criticism that should be levelled at any people and society that allows their leaders free run. Just because it isn't doesn't make it ok. But that's getting off-topic. And even Aryvandaar's first openly 'aggressive' actions towards Miyeritar were only made after centuries of peaceful diplomatic negotiations. If the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar had truly been evil and corrupt, there would have been no reason for the Vyshaan to even attempt peaceful overtures at all; they would have attacked immediately. It's easier to use diplomacy to hopefully achieve what you want, while all the while building up forces in case diplomacy doesn't work. It's not evil or corrupt, it's a common tactic. Or perhaps they knew Miyeritar was a formidable opponent, and that while the Vyshaan were willing to dedicate the resources and time into conquering them, they would rather have achieved it with less trouble. It's prudent planning:) For they proved, in time, that they obviously had the military might to decimate Miyeritar, when they so desired. It took them centuries to occupy Miyeritar (which was at the height of it's magical renaissance), and even that didn't accomplish a complete conquering, as resistance remained all the way up to the Dark Disaster. Such a scenario isn't "when they so desired.", but more of "after dumping so many resources into it that it was inevitable.". A RL example of a similar scenario is currently happening. It may very well have been that the Dark Disaster was meant to finally deal with a troublesome Miyeritar, a Miyeritar that increasingly became too much trouble to deal with and a too large drain on resources while simultaneously maintaining numerous other offensives. As they say, it's not wise to fight a two front war. Man, I wish LEoF had been about three times as long... Ditto. I wonder if it's ok to hope for a future LEoF II...III. I want some more on Imaskar, such as what led them to have their views on the divine? Such drastic anti-divine views are rarely caused via the natural progression of society, so I'm curious as to what the divine did (or what the Imaskari presumed the divine did) to warrant such fehement hatred and fear. |
| Dargoth04-04-07, 05:43 PM | As a house rule in my own campaign Dark Elves from Miyeritar who turned back into their mortal form are "Reborn" as that Elven/Planetouched race Eric Boyd recently created in his Volo article in Dragon magazine |
| Prince Indirian04-04-07, 06:16 PM | Some very good points made here. History will respond to some of the points you've made. In a grand fashion at that.:) -- George Krashos Sounds awesome...:) I'll throw in some speculations here, which may or may not be my own:embarrass It took them centuries to occupy Miyeritar (which was at the height of it's magical renaissance), and even that didn't accomplish a complete conquering, as resistance remained all the way up to the Dark Disaster. Such a scenario isn't "when they so desired.", but more of "after dumping so many resources into it that it was inevitable.". A RL example of a similar scenario is currently happening. It may very well have been that the Dark Disaster was meant to finally deal with a troublesome Miyeritar, a Miyeritar that increasingly became too much trouble to deal with and a too large drain on resources while simultaneously maintaining numerous other offensives. As they say, it's not wise to fight a two front war. You had many good points but I'll only respond to one now. I agree with you completely. Miyertar was hotbed for centuries (like a certain country)) and even though Aryvandaar managed to defeat the armies of miyertar , she didn't manage to rule it. The resistance was still there and was likely so fierce and ouright irritating that Aryvandaar just wanted it dealt with. Thus the spell, though actually efficienvy might have been a little more than expected .Or maybe because of the resistance, they felt that if they were not going to have Miyertar so would nobody else. I particular the Miyertary themselves. Thus they destroyed Miyertar... |
| Lord Karsus04-04-07, 06:52 PM | I rather wish it had stayed that way in modern lore - more of a mystery. -Yeah, well, this is 3e. What stone hasn't been controversially turned? As a house rule in my own campaign Dark Elves from Miyeritar who turned back into their mortal form are "Reborn" as that Elven/Planetouched race Eric Boyd recently created in his Volo article in Dragon magazine -I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Celadrin are Elves who almost exclusively worship Henali Celanil, and are born to Elve and Eladrin parents. It's a good idea, what you were saying, but Celadrin don't fit the mold at all. |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 07:30 PM | Again, I'm a little confused as to what people are arguing about with the Vyshaantar/ti, specifically. Warfare among Elves is NOT considered 'evil' or 'corrupt.' It's the METHODS of warfare that are considered good or evil, it seems - or at least, it seems that's how it was thousands of years ago. The Vyshaantari's only real 'sin,' with that in mind, is the Dark Disaster. So, you'll have to excuse me if I'm not very sympathetic towards the idea that the Vyshaantari performed the Dark Disaster, since the main history of the Crown Wars was already written with the 'fact' that the Dark Disaster's actual casters were 'unknown' (as per Cormanthyr). That's one of my main beef's with the 3E lore - you don't change a massive piece of lore like that (unknown to definitely the Vyshantaari High Magi!) and expect the rest of history to have followed suit. SOMETHING'S inconsistent, there, and it's up to us, I think, to decide what we choose to ignore or change to make history 'work' properly again. I'm going with Krash's idea that the Dark Disaster's culprits were NOT specifically pegged down, again. It fits the best with old lore, and it would make the rest of history as written more logical. |
| Prince Indirian04-04-07, 08:15 PM | Again, I'm a little confused as to what people are arguing about with the Vyshaantar/ti, specifically. Warfare among Elves is NOT considered 'evil' or 'corrupt.' It's the METHODS of warfare that are considered good or evil, it seems - or at least, it seems that's how it was thousands of years ago. The Vyshaantari's only real 'sin,' with that in mind, is the Dark Disaster. You forgot the reasons as well. Greed and possible envy. They are even more important. Until then the elves had been pretty much unified. Aryvandaar and Illithyr (war of the leaves) were the first to fight or cause strife among the elves. As a good-alignes race (supposedly) the reasons for fighting are at least as important. So, you'll have to excuse me if I'm not very sympathetic towards the idea that the Vyshaantari performed the Dark Disaster, since the main history of the Crown Wars was already written with the 'fact' that the Dark Disaster's actual casters were 'unknown' (as per Cormanthyr). That's one of my main beef's with the 3E lore - you don't change a massive piece of lore like that (unknown to definitely the Vyshantaari High Magi!) and expect the rest of history to have followed suit. SOMETHING'S inconsistent, there, and it's up to us, I think, to decide what we choose to ignore or change to make history 'work' properly again. I'm going with Krash's idea that the Dark Disaster's culprits were NOT specifically pegged down, again. It fits the best with old lore, and it would make the rest of history as written more logical. Quote from Cormanthyr Empire of the Elves... The Dark Disaster: Miyeritar is engulfed in killing storms, which reduce this entire forest and realm into barren wastelands in three months. While no proof could ever be found, many believe the High Mages of Aryvandaar inflicted the Dark Disaster on Miyeritar. Shock over the Dark Disaster established an uneasy four decades of peace, as nearly every elf of Faerûn shrank back in awe and horror from what havoc the Crown Wars wrought. The LEOF merely confirm what many elves already belivied: Aryvandaar was guilty. The actuall proof was lacking then...at the time of the DD. Nuff said... |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 09:01 PM | Uh? No? Many 'believe' is VERY different than 'this definitely happened.' Super, extremely different. |
| Karsus the Mad04-04-07, 09:14 PM | Again, I'm a little confused as to what people are arguing about with the Vyshaantar/ti, specifically. Warfare among Elves is NOT considered 'evil' or 'corrupt.' It's the METHODS of warfare that are considered good or evil, it seems - or at least, it seems that's how it was thousands of years ago. The Vyshaantari's only real 'sin,' with that in mind, is the Dark Disaster. It's the reasoning and methods. I'm confused as to why people place a sympathetic, greyscale mentality only to one race, while pegging a black/white mentality to any other that perform acts of atrocities. you don't change a massive piece of lore like that (unknown to definitely the Vyshantaari High Magi!) and expect the rest of history to have followed suit. They didn't change it, merely confirmed out-of-game what many believed in-game. I'm going with Krash's idea that the Dark Disaster's culprits were NOT specifically pegged down, again. It fits the best with old lore, and it would make the rest of history as written more logical. That's all good, but old lore fits just as much with the new lore. The only difference being that we know out-of-game that it was Vyshaantar high mages. That doesn't mean it wasn't a rogue faction or an accident. The details are just as obscure as before. Myself, I'm going with a failed experiment that Vyshaantar high mages were performing using Malkizid's teachings. Who knows, maybe Malkizid did it on purpose, in the hopes to cause even more problems. |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 09:22 PM | What many believed in-game, though, doesn't necessarily affect how the deities did or did not act towards the Vyshaanti. That's one of the main points I saw, here - that Corellon seemed to be sympathetic towards Sun Elves. Well, if in old editions, people only *thought* in-character that the Vyshaanti performed the Dark Disaster as a whole, and they actually DIDN'T, then Corellon would have been perfectly 'Good' in his actions in NOT banishing the whole subrace. Now, on the other hand, we DO "know out of character" that they did this. Supposedly. Of course, that makes absolutely no sense unless one assumes Corellon holds a double standard, which it's pretty obvious that he does not, judging from all of his other actions and descriptions in decades of material. In other words... To me, at least, things just dont "add up" with the way lore is currently written. It's the reasoning and methods. I'm confused as to why people place a sympathetic, greyscale mentality only to one race, while pegging a black/white mentality to any other that perform acts of atrocities. My point exactly. Do you really think Elaine Cunningham, who makes it VERY clear that both Sun Elves and Moon Elves are both good and bad, would make a statement about the Aryvandaari versus the Ilythiiri like she has, if things had actually gone exactly as LEoF has written? At the heart of the matter is that the Drow were meant to be a CE subrace, which were pegged onto Faerun long after Sun Elves and Moon Elves were detailed and created. No matter how the past went, the Drow were going to HAVE to become CE, somehow. The very act of trying to work in a lore-based reason for their existence has done almost as much damage to continuity and theme as not, in my opinion. LEoF tried to 'cear things up' but seems, to me, to only have added to the confusion of the entire situation. I really hope, as Krash has hinted, future products or novels actually clear things up in a more cogent manner. |
| Karsus the Mad04-04-07, 09:39 PM | What many believed in-game, though, doesn't necessarily affect how the deities did or did not act towards the Vyshaanti. That's one of the main points I saw, here - that Corellon seemed to be sympathetic towards Sun Elves. He kinda is:P He does hold them as one of his portfolios. I'd think any deity would be sympathetic towards their portfolio. Well, if in old editions, people only *thought* in-character that the Vyshaanti performed the Dark Disaster as a whole, and they actually DIDN'T, then Corellon would have been perfectly 'Good' in his actions in NOT banishing the whole subrace. Point there. He also could have not banished the entire Ilythiiri elves (the nation, not the subrace), but instead only those responsible (those who were vile, corrupt, performed evil deeds, etc). Now, on the other hand, we DO "know out of character" that they did this. Supposedly. Of course, that makes absolutely no sense unless one assumes Corellon holds a double standard, which it's pretty obvious that he does not, judging from all of his other actions and descriptions in decades of material. Knowing the facts doesn't change it. For all we know, the big C knew perfectly well that it was only a small faction of high mages, and thus not hold the rest responsible. It still begs the question as to why he allowed such rituals (Dark Disaster and the Ilythiiri abuse of High Magic in their wars) to work in the first place, but ehhh. I'm sure not all Ilythiiri commoners were as evil and vile as their nobles, and certainly wouldn't have deserved their fate. The ritual however (not including possible interference by other gods) was designed to transform the entire populace of Ilythiir (the nation, not subrace), not just the guilty. The big C could have held the same mentality about them that you propose, but he didn't. That is having a double standard (or at the very least, allowing those who have double standards use High Magic in his name). However, that's not the point, nor is having double standards in regards to your portfolio. I'd certainly agree with Mystra favoring Magic over technology, and ensuring the complete eradication of technology while furthering magic, despite the fact both having done the same thing. |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 11:06 PM | While I like to think that Corellon favors Sun Elves, he really doesn't... Sun Elves worship him most often, above all else, but his ACTUAL portfolios (as in, printed in canon) isn't 'Especially Sun Elves' as a lot of online sources like to claim. :) |
| Karsus the Mad04-04-07, 11:13 PM | While I like to think that Corellon favors Sun Elves, he really doesn't... Sun Elves worship him most often, above all else, but his ACTUAL portfolios (as in, printed in canon) isn't 'Especially Sun Elves' as a lot of online sources like to claim. :) Actually, Faiths and Pantheon does include the "especially sun elves" in his portfolio:) |
| Stigger04-05-07, 07:25 AM | Not to put too fine a point on it, but the 'proceeded unopposed because a Vyshaantar assassination campaign had destroyed many of Miyeritar's high mages in the months before.' line* doesn't exactly favor a small, rogue element being behind it. Presumably those high mages weren't exactly easy kills, and were again presumably considered high value targets by their own side and their enemies, and were unarguably well protected, with some of the best stuff the kingdom had, in people and resources. So someone was sitting out in the middle of the forest training assassins who were capable of slipping past magic and the best elven guards available, and the Vyshaan Emperor knew nothing about it? And his intelligence assets were so inept that they failed to notice and inform the emperor that all of the enemies high mages were dropping like flies? And so this incredibly inept Emperor (well, his historians really, but you get the point) goes on to tell the world that the high mages of Miyeritar did this horrible thing to themselves, and after having seen this disaster, didn't have his own high mages look into the event to see what really happened so that no one would ever be stupid enough to do it again. Sorry, but that sounds like a premeditated military strike to liquidate your opponent in one fell swoop more than a few psychopath high mages with burrs up their robes. I cannot conceive of a Vyshaan ruler being so sheltered and uninformed as to allow something like that to happen by rogue elements among his own high mages without at least knowing something about it, particularly just 400 years after Malkazid became their dynasty's hidden patron. That the crown didn’t know makes even less sense if you read C:EoE’s section the dark disaster. Of course that same section also mentions the 90 dark elf wizards who sacrificed themselves so nobly, who were still screwed over by the Seldarine’s decrees regardless of that sacrifice… And so one house being corrupt doesn't condemn the entirety of the Sun elves to banishment, but one kingdom condemns an entire subrace to banishment? What about the drow who weren't worshipping Llolth and company, and not committing atrocities? Just banish them too, oh well, too bad, sucks to be you? Sure the majority of the Ilythiiri almost certainly deserved it, but not the entirety of the subrace. How is that not a double standard, much less even vaguely good aligned? I mean, on page 52 of the LEoF Crown Wars timeline it explicitly states that the Seldarine were the ones smoting the dark elves... which doesn’t exactly clash with the lore in C:EoE, which is remarkably vague and evasive on the subject. And yes, in F&P it does say “the elven race (especially sun elves)” in his portfolio section. And to me, from what I’ve read, his actions during the Crown Wars certainly justifies that caveat on his portfolio. *emphasis my own addition there And yes, I know that the smote thing is off, but I like that spelling, so deal with it. |
| GothicDan04-05-07, 08:07 AM | Actually, Faiths and Pantheon does include the "especially sun elves" in his portfolio Figures. And people wonder why I tend to exclude 3E lore... BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!! Corellon NEVER favored a specific subrace before, and the very fact that AMLARUIL, a MOON ELF, was chosen as the Chosen of the Seldarine, would suggest that he DOESN'T favor Sun Elves. So angry at 3E right now. I'm going to go take my Latin test and try to ignore all of the travesty. (Yes, Dan actually is angry that it says Corellon favors Sun Elves.) It just doesn't make sense. Krash, can you please do something to make everything line up? I'll give you something expensive and awesome. |
| Karsus the Mad04-05-07, 08:58 AM | My point exactly. Do you really think Elaine Cunningham, who makes it VERY clear that both Sun Elves and Moon Elves are both good and bad, would make a statement about the Aryvandaari versus the Ilythiiri like she has, if things had actually gone exactly as LEoF has written? Depends. Are the stories and tomes under ward and guard at Candlekeep 100% fact, or are they merely interpretations of those who scribed the events over the centuries? A novel is an excellent source, but one must keep in mind that everything within a novel takes place in-character, so the views and statements expressed therein likely aren't 100% accurate, but will always be from the character(s) point of view. As for any out-of-character statements made by authors? It all depends on whether what they say is put into canonical fact. Other than that, it's merely their view/interpretation. If Zysch ever became an author and wrote a novel or made statements that glorified Netheril's archwizards as goodly pure souls whom never harmed a fly, would you still take the novel's PoV or his statements as fact, and ignore anything printed in an actual sourcebook;) <shudder> I scared myself thinking of that happening. At the heart of the matter is that the Drow were meant to be a CE subrace, which were pegged onto Faerun long after Sun Elves and Moon Elves were detailed and created. No matter how the past went, the Drow were going to HAVE to become CE, somehow. Most assuredly. The drow had to be the bad guys. One of the problems is that they were incorporated as an absolute. The very act of trying to work in a lore-based reason for their existence has done almost as much damage to continuity and theme as not, in my opinion. It's often the difficulty of incorporating something inherently absolute (drow ARE evil) into a setting that's inherently NOT absolute (nothing is absolute in FR, there's always shades of grey) and not adapting what's added, but instead adapting the setting itself. It prolly would have been more prudent not to detail the origins of the drow, or the cause, to begin with. Afterall, all this stuff is thousands of years old, beyond the lifespan of all but the exceptionally few, and really shouldn't be known (even out of game). That's my opinion on it anyway. And yes, I know that the smote thing is off, but I like that spelling, so deal with it. Did we touch upon a sensitive topic for you?:) |
| Krash04-05-07, 09:02 AM | :D Nope, I can't make everything line up. Because what is lined up for one fan is totally screwed up for another. There's just no pleasing you guys!;) Seriously, my take on the dark elves into drow thing is that the Ilythiiri deserved it. Surviving Miyeritari on the whole deserved it too. Why? Well, it's likely that after the Dark Disaster, renegade Miyeritari dark elves turned to Ilythiir for aid - and likely were corrupted themselves in doing so. My personal belief is that notwithstanding what the sources say, not every dark elf was transformed into drow in -10,000 DR. However, the ones that weren't were so few and scattered to the winds that their bloodlines played out with elven interbreeding over the years. That 50/50 chance for either sub-race rule is a bit like russian roulette when you are trying to maintain your race numbers. -- George Krashos |
| Stigger04-05-07, 02:30 PM | Not sensitive, just a pre-emptive strike against Dan's spelling mania... that and I find the word 'smote' fun and highly amusing. Kinda like 'smock' that way... Interesting take on the dark elf/drow transformation there Krash... a bit too much supposition for my liking, but I can see where someone could come to that conclusion. Though I'd still say that at the very least, Corellon turned a blind eye towards Vyshaantar and its leaders... as did most of the Seldarine if their clerics were going along and supporting these wars of the Vyshaantar with their healing magics. Had the Seldarine transformed the corrupted Vyshaantar along with the Ilythiiri, I'd have no problem, but that didn't happen, despite the Vyshaan being just as bad as the Ilythiiri... if not worse for that whole Dark Disaster thing. Calling it bad historical work on the parts of designers, trying to fit things into a history that were never intended to have them fit into isn't really going to help the matter much though. It's not like this stuff hasn't been hinted at pretty heavily in 2e, with C:EoE in particular... it's not like 3e did anything more than clarify a few relatively minor points really. The bulk of the history is still largely intact really, along with its spirit. If anything, it's the Elves of Evermeet that's out of place with C:EoE and LEoF, at least as far as I can tell. |
| Karsus the Mad04-05-07, 04:57 PM | I had this idea at work from a coworker telling me about how he kicked his lady out of the house, so don't smite me! I started thinking, Corellon and Loth. Given that Corellon is the embodiment of elven ideals, and we all know how elves are very stingy on forgiveness, and are also a rather passionate race in most regards and often respond hastily and overmuch when they feel they have the need. What if the Descent is actually nothing but Corellon reacting to a bruised ego, broken heart, etc? "Getting even" against Lloth by punishing her followers, and in typical bruised ego fashion that passionate males typically adopt, reacted more than what he intended. Now however, after calming down and gathering his wits after a fit of anger, he can't bring himself to correct it, as that'd be admitting to himself he was wrong in the first place. It all made sense in my head while I was at work, but now I'm home and dead tired, so not sure if it still makes sense.:embarrass It was all nothing but a cosmic post breakup argument:eek: |
| Stigger04-05-07, 05:03 PM | That wouldn't actually surprise me much thinking about it... but hey, I'm still sick and in pain, so keep that in mind. :D |
| GothicDan04-05-07, 09:42 PM | It seems kind of silly to me to simply accept everything at face value - especially when things just 'don't add up.' Namely: we've established the fact that Corellon is CG. And his actions, if they are EXACTLY as lore says, are obviously not CG. So - which bit of lore/history do you believe? I prefer to go with the more well-established bits, and then modify (slightly) newer lore to fit with the older. That's where a lot of my opinion comes from: trying to 'fit all the bits together.' C:EotE left JUST enough ambiguity to the history, I think. LEoF cemented a little too much. |
| Stigger04-06-07, 07:02 AM | CG now... but you're talking about a very long time ago really. Could be that he could be better described as Seelie more than goodly at the time... and their concept of fair and right is a bit different than most others. Could also be that he was focussing more on the C part than the G at the time as well... there are tons of reasons why it could work from both a lore and current canon point of view actually. Divine temper tantrum, fit of pique, bad day he never set right, any number of other things. Could even have something to do with 'grand plan in motion' that we see shaping up as the WotSQ or that new series whose name just completely flew out of my head for some reason... |
| Kerym Ammath04-06-07, 07:23 AM | Personally I prefer Lolth dragging them down with her, vis Corellon cursing all of them. I guess you could say I am tired of vengeful Gods, seeing as how real world religions seem to be full of them. |
| Ramenth04-06-07, 01:36 PM | So, I have a question about this. What does it matter if the Sharn-Dark Elves are hit with the curse? What actually happens to them? There are already a large number of good aligned drow on the surface following Elistraee. What's afew more from Miytare (My god, I cannot spell that place.) |
| Karsus the Mad04-06-07, 03:18 PM | So, I have a question about this. What does it matter if the Sharn-Dark Elves are hit with the curse? What actually happens to them? There are already a large number of good aligned drow on the surface following Elistraee. What's afew more from Miytare (My god, I cannot spell that place.) It's primarily a debate about the morality of their curse as to whether or not there is out-of-game favortism towards a specific race (Sun elves in this regard) by the various authors (past and present due to the past) that create the lore in which the Realms Elves is formed from. When one takes a purely neutral view, there is no logical reasoning for ALL dark elves to have been cursed to become drow due to the actions of a single group (however, as stated a few time above, they HAD to be EVIL, so that generic Drow could be included.), or that ALL non-elves (in 2e) were punished due to the magical atrocities of one human nation (or specifically, one human, Karsus), etc, all the while allowing Sun elves not to suffer any punishment despite performing equal atrocities numerous times more than those punished but blaming the actions of a small group of their own (in this regard the Vyshaan Clan that ruled Vyshaantar/ Aryvandaar). Let's not forget the traitorous moon elves that helped the Ilythiiri. They weren't punished! That's not including the thousands of innocents murdered during such acts as...ohhh....the great tidal wave that wiped out Jhaamdath....the high magic rituals that caused the explosion of two Netherese undersea colonies killing everyone, or the complete temporary sundering of the Weave, which caused chaos and havoc accross the planet and through time, all so they could have their own island and everyone else be damned, causing chaos and havoc and death to vast tracks of Faerun, etc. Yet, it's ok...they were Sun elves afterall:) Of course it's all ok from their PoV, as it should be for any nation. They always feel their actions are for the best. Then again, Karsus was perfectly right from his PoV but humanity was still punished. Jhaamdath was perfectly right, from their PoV, but were still wiped out. The Ilythiiri were perfectly right from their PoV, but hey, we have drow now. A pattern is forming....:) I'd rather all bastards that performed atrocities to be treated equally harsh. Burn the dark elves for the acts of Ilythiir, melt the sun elves for the acts of Aryvandaar, incenerate the humans for the acts of Netheril, and so on...but then, there wouldn't be anyone to play with. I'd make a really bad Ao...:D |
| Stigger04-06-07, 03:22 PM | Don't forget the sea elf kingdom that got wiped out in the destruction of Jhaamdath as well... |
| Kerym Ammath04-06-07, 03:23 PM | Of course a pattern is forming... one that gives Sun Elves unlimited get out of jail free cards. Lets not forget that according to the Player's guide they live longer than all other elves, so they are apparently blessed for their transgressions rather than punished. I wish I knew who does their marketing ;) |
| Stigger04-06-07, 03:41 PM | Whoever it is, the Karsii might consider hiring them to build up the case as to why they should have Mystryl's portfolio rather than this upstart Mystra... |
| Karsus the Mad04-06-07, 03:42 PM | Umm...I'm not actually trying to make them (sun elves) look bad. I am actually being neutral. I'll point out specific flaws in so far as I see them, but I also acknowledge the grey areas when I notice they exist. I truly don't feel it's an in-game problem, at least not as much as I believe the majority of the issues are due to early game design attempting to incorporate generic standards, wherein the drow are evil (they were designed to be that from the start) and high elves (sun elves in FR) are detached, haughty, mysterious, and noble beings (they were designed to be that from the start) into a setting where things, especially behavior and actions, are anything but standard (this is not an insult on any authors: they're told to do something and they do it to the best of their abilities, but just because you're told to "reach for the stars" doesn't mean you can litterally wrap your fingers around Alpha Centauri). Everything is grey. I'm sure there's in-game reasons for everything (I like my idea of a failed experiment resulting in the High Moore, as well as a divine fit...somehow fits with FR deities). |
| Karsus the Mad04-06-07, 03:43 PM | Whoever it is, the Karsii might consider hiring them to build up the case as to why they should have Mystryl's portfolio rather than this upstart Mystra... Working on it actually....and the Karsii should have the portfolio. Or at the very least, have all the portfolios of Mystryl that Mystra never gained that other gods usurped. Well, there's still time and energy...they're open game...hmmmm |
| Kerym Ammath04-06-07, 03:46 PM | The Sun Elf/Drow punishment debate really is caused by the shifting priorities for the setting over 20 years and three versions of the game, while incorporating elements from even the first edition. The point of bringing them up in my mind is so that someday we might see these issues fixed. |
| Ramenth04-06-07, 04:20 PM | I think at least some of it is slowly being shifted. I mean, Drow are only just starting to get any serious attention besides "OMG THEY LIVE UNDER GROUND AND ARE EVIL!" |
| Karsus the Mad04-06-07, 04:39 PM | I think at least some of it is slowly being shifted. I mean, Drow are only just starting to get any serious attention besides "OMG THEY LIVE UNDER GROUND AND ARE EVIL!" Look at how many hate that idea:P Almost as many that idolize it:) |
| Kerym Ammath04-06-07, 05:42 PM | Seeing as how Drow have always been a major "monster" for old school players, some have difficulty adapting to the way the game has changed as has the entire RPG industry. I am certainly not a Drizzt/Good Drow fanboy, but the product that has been put out in the last 5 years in relation to the Drow is certainly better than what has come before. There is no harm in making a "monster" more real. My Drow now are certainly more believable than when I first portrayed them for one of my old gaming groups as we played through G1,2,3 soon after those modules were available. It's called progress, and it has been my experience that most gamers hate change. |
| Ramenth04-06-07, 05:42 PM | Clearly the solution to this is to make an entirelly Drow MMORPG and an entirelly Kill Drow MMORPG. |
| Stigger04-06-07, 06:20 PM | Evolve or die I say... nothing wrong with tossing in elements that challenge preconceptions and add in shades of gray. Messes with the Paladins head anyway, so I'm all for that side benefit. But really, a lot of it has to do with interpretation as well. Personally, I see the Book of Vile Darkness/Book of Exalted Deeds adding in a considerable amount of variation of good and evil, and how to interpret and present it that goes outside of the 'classic' views they normally have. Same goes for Champions of Ruin/Champions of Valor. Others, from what I know, see them as defining things too much in terms of black and white, and don't seem to care for them much at all. Neither view, or any other for that matter, is right or wrong, simply a matter of perspective and interpretation of the material presented. |
| Lord Karsus04-06-07, 06:31 PM | Figures. And people wonder why I tend to exclude 3E lore... BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!! Corellon NEVER favored a specific subrace before, and the very fact that AMLARUIL, a MOON ELF, was chosen as the Chosen of the Seldarine, would suggest that he DOESN'T favor Sun Elves. So angry at 3E right now. I'm going to go take my Latin test and try to ignore all of the travesty. (Yes, Dan actually is angry that it says Corellon favors Sun Elves.) It just doesn't make sense. Krash, can you please do something to make everything line up? I'll give you something expensive and awesome. -If it makes you any better, I did replace the 'Sun Elf' portfolio a while ago with the "Elven Race' portfolio, in Elves of Faerûn. |
| Lord Karsus04-06-07, 06:38 PM | Working on it actually....and the Karsii should have the portfolio. Or at the very least, have all the portfolios of Mystryl that Mystra never gained that other gods usurped. Well, there's still time and energy...they're open game...hmmmm -I'm good with Time and Energy. I have a really long list (40 KB) of other portfolios that are availible in the Faerûnian Pantheon as well...Some availible things that really shout out 'Karsus' include: Alcohol Cooking Delirium Hubris Impulsiveness Intoxicants Obsession Pariahs/Stigma Pride Sexuality Unfair Outcomes |
| Stigger04-06-07, 06:43 PM | I think a fair case could be made for Shar having rights to the Obsession portfolio, given her whole fixation on destroying Selune, and the pains hidden but not forgotten (or however thats phrased) thing. Sharess/Sune would probably quibble over Sexuality as well, and honestly, I think you're gonna lose that debate the second the cleavage comes into play... maybe you could get 'Deviant Sexuality' out of them though. Everything else looks good though. :D |
| Lord Karsus04-06-07, 06:52 PM | Sharess/Sune would probably quibble over Sexuality as well, and honestly, I think you're gonna lose that debate the second the cleavage comes into play... -You've never seen The Karsus in action. Ohhh Yeahhh...:cool: ;) |
| Stigger04-06-07, 08:08 PM | Dunno about that one... from the plans for what to do with the Shadow Weave, I'd say you'd be susceptible to that sort of 'divine influence'... ;) |
| GothicDan04-06-07, 09:08 PM | Of course a pattern is forming... one that gives Sun Elves unlimited get out of jail free cards. Lets not forget that according to the Player's guide they live longer than all other elves, so they are apparently blessed for their transgressions rather than punished. I wish I knew who does their marketing Precisely the sort of logic that results from current lore. ;) And ALL Elves, by default, are theoretically immortal. The Sun Elves, due to their massive responsibility and sheer willpower (pride?) simply have a tendency to resist the call of Arvandor a little longer. That's not a blessing; it's something more intrinsic to the neurology/culture. |
| Krash04-06-07, 10:10 PM | I think it may have been simply a religious thing. Corellon could give his blessing to the Descent of the Drow and what happened to the Ilythiiri because likely none of them worshipped him and were outside the bounds of his care and consideration. Also, their worship of Lolth and Ghaunadar likely put them beyond the bounds of "fellow elves" and they were considered to have fallen so far from the ideals of the Tel'Quessir that they were beyond redemption. They were hence dealt with accordingly. Simply, Corellon didn't care what happened to the dark elves. -- George Krashos |
| GothicDan04-06-07, 10:21 PM | Whereas, for the most part, besides the Vyshaanti, the Sun Elves still DID worship Corellon, sincerely, and were NOT as a whole evil. They were still his children - except for the Vyshaanti. Who were slain. |
| Stigger04-07-07, 02:56 AM | My wife raised an interesting point this evening as we discussed this very situation... it could be that the elves of the time were remarkably different from the more modern elves. Look at early human cultures, they value little more than survival, the collective, and their word/oath/honor, simply because they need those things to survive. Eventually, the importance of the collective fades and they move more towards individualistic pursuits and put less emphasis on oaths and honor and such, again, because their importance does not serve such a vital role in the survival of society as a whole. Perhaps they (honor, et al) are taken still taken seriously, but not to the life and death degree of seriousness they used to be viewed with. So back during the Crown Wars, we saw massive elven empires fielding armies and conquering each other back and forth, troops doing questionable things, leaders doing even more questionable things, and life generally being very unpleasant. Why would those Aryvandaaran elves have followed the Vyshaan in the first place, considering their actions were basically going against elven nature as we currently know it in the first place? Why was the empire building tolerated at all, particularly at the cost of elven blood being spilled? Really, there are only two good options that stick with the established history there, one that the whole of Aryvandaar were a bunch of very evil people who didn't take that much prodding by the Vyshaan to act in a way not terribly consistent with modern elven culture, or two, that elven culture during the period was a very different thing than the modern incarnation we see today. While the easy route would be to say that they were evil and just dismiss the matter, I would think that the tendency to group into kingdoms lends itself far more to the theory that elven culture was far more 'human-like' than it is today. That could even go a long way to explaining why the elves are so concerned about humans today, they've been there, done it, and paid the price dearly. It could even be that the experience of the Crown Wars is what drove the elves to moving more towards the more modern ideal of elven culture in the first place... I'd say extremely likely, personally. It could even be that the change was not an entirely conscious one, but something shaped subconsciously over the course of millennia until we arrive at the elves of today. And as the minds and attitudes of those elves changed, so did the Seldarine. I don't think its unfair to say that the Seldarine of the past were far more aggressive and warlike, from what we know of them, compared to their more modern semi-passive selves. So looking at it from that perspective, it could be that the dark elves were punished because of Araushnee, and their continuing loyalty to her, and their breaking of their societal oaths to the Seldarine, and the rest of elvenkind, by siding with a traitor, one of the worst of sins I mentioned above. Certainly the dark elves who remained loyal to the Seldarine suffered, but Blood will out, as they say, was probably a popular idea during the period, so they got blamed anyway. Sure, the Vyshaan sided with Malkazid, but the average elf in the field thought he was still fighting in Correllon's honor, and so never actually broke their oaths to the Seldarine in their hearts. Hence, the dark elves became the drow, and the gold elves stayed themselves, and the Vyshaan were expunged from the world. Monstrous behaviour, or at least questionable behaviour, by modern faerunian elf standards, but probably par for the course at the time. I think its a reasonable explanation really, and not far off from what Krash was suggesting, but more elaborated. |
| Ramenth04-07-07, 03:41 AM | There's not really alot to speculate on there though. What the Seldreline and elves of the time were like is all documented. |
| Stigger04-07-07, 04:34 AM | Documented in the sense that we have historical information of dates and events, but not so much in terms of culture and society beyond names and places, and perhaps very basic demographics. |
| Lord Karsus04-07-07, 05:53 PM | -That's all some very interesting stuff. When I- or someone else, perhaps- begin writing on the Ancient Elven Empires for Elves of Faerûn, I might reference some of that, or in the least, keep that all in mind. |
| GothicDan04-07-07, 10:31 PM | I dunno. Corellon and the Seldarine were always pretty CG as far as I can tell. They always hung out in Arvandor and Ysgard. Of course, I could have seen them as once being more aggressive, perhaps, upon their first creation ("arising from even older gods," from Evermeet - perhaps the Norse? Or the Fey?) |
| Stigger04-08-07, 01:55 AM | Fey if I had to venture an opinion. I don't think I've ever seen the fey described as anything if not capricious, with a very different set of morality than most other creatures. Technically within the bounds of good, but with a radically different interpretation of it than most other creatures. |
| GothicDan04-08-07, 02:42 PM | I just like to link the Seldarine with the Norse pantheons in my mind... Especially given how they DO have links, historically, with Ysgard. (Not to mention Norse Worlds like Svartalfheim (Dark Elf Home) and Ljosalfheim (Light Elf Home).) |
| Stigger04-08-07, 06:12 PM | Well, nothing stopping you from making that link. Those elves weren't exactly 'nice' by any stretch, as I rustily recall, so it works just as well I suppose. |
| Philalexandros04-08-07, 10:12 PM | My personal belief is that notwithstanding what the sources say, not every dark elf was transformed into drow in -10,000 DR. However, the ones that weren't were so few and scattered to the winds that their bloodlines played out with elven interbreeding over the years. That 50/50 chance for either sub-race rule is a bit like russian roulette when you are trying to maintain your race numbers. -- George Krashos (boldened emphasis mine) That definitely works for me. This concept allows for justice and realistically explains how their lines are absent today. Incidentally, regarding Eilistraee's efforts: Drow of the Underdark, a 2E sourcebook that's been around since 1991 (I think) states that as many as 15% of the Drow are non-evil worshippers of Eilistraee. I'd say that proves that, if anything, Eilistraee's success has been understated. |
| Alfryn04-09-07, 06:03 AM | I have spent a great deal of time trying to reconcile the various sources on the history of the Crown Wars with the notion of Corellon as a "good" god. I have read most of the source books in connection with this and the novel Evermeet but not the later ones from the Last Mythal series. The best I have been able to come up with thus far is: Pre-Crown war the dark elves were dusky skinned as they originated from the southern sun drenched regions. Their principle focus of worship was Corellon and their second most popular god was Erevan. They had naturally aggressive natures and favoured "might" over "right". However, they were also culturally advanced and also very skilled craftspeople. All this was in keeping with Corellon's portfolio but as evidenced by their love of Erevan, I would think that generally they were more chaotic neutral in outlook and already regarded trickery as a skill to be encouraged. They also already had a more individualistic approach to life than other elves which meant the majority were not so adept at high magic which requires a great deal of trust and co-operation between participants. A small group of dark elves who were more adept a magic and wished to further their studies left the original homeland of Illythiir and travelled northwards to study with the sun elves of Aryvaandar. Subsequently having become tired of being bossed about by the sun elves, they moved back southwards and established Miyeritar as a joint venture with the Green elves of that area. High magic is under the control of Corellon and it is likely that there was a sort of unwritten code that it should not be used against other elves or for "evil" purposes. Also as already stated above, the Illythiir were on the whole not as adept at using it anyway. As a result, certain ambitious elements in Illythiir started to look around for other means of acquiring power, initially Ghaunadaur and later Lolth, possibly also Talos as there is a group of southern drow who worship him under the name of Balros (I think that is the right spelling). Following the Sundering when many coastal settlements were wiped out by the tidal waves that followed, the majority of which were in Illythiir, they began to be even more concerned about what the Aryvaandar might do and no doubt tried to encourage greater links with their bretheren in Miyeritar. At this point Aryvaandar became concerned because they had seen how far the elves of Miyeritar had come in high magic and knew from their spies that there were elements in the Illythiir who no longer worshiped the Selderine, so they tried to align Miyeritar with themselves, initially by peaceful diplomacy and when that didn't work, by invasion. Whilst the initial assault allowed them to occupy the country, the native population continued to wage a successful guerilla war. Meanwhile down south the Illythiir reacted to the war by attacking the trade allies of Aryvaandar, using increasingly unelven tactics. The Vyshan leaders of Aryvaandar, now somewhat obsessed with the idea of subduing the dark elves and fearing the Miyeritari might resort to similar tactics, started to look around for a way to end the war swiftly and were advised of a way in which they could use high magic for this purpose without being subject to Corellon's veto. The result was the Dark Disaster. During the 50 years "peace" that followed the agents of Lolth were able to make great inroads into the general populace of dark elves by pointing out that only high magic could have caused the Dark Disaster and therefore by implication Corellon had permitted the Aryvaandar to commit this attrocity. Clearly, they would argue, he had no love for the dark elves, which Lolth had always forseen which is why she had challenged him in the past and been banished for her pains. Therefore they should renounced their allegience to Corellon and all other gods who supported him. No doubt either through coercion and by feeding on a genuine fear of the northern elves, most other inhabitants of Illythiir were converted in one way or another to non Selderine gods. Meanwhile, even the surviving refugees from Miyeritar have lost faith in Corellon and the Selderine, some looking to Ellistraae for comfort, others opting for the more natural alternative of Vhauraun (over Erevan). It is likely, therefore, that there were very few dark elves who still worshiped the Selderine and so were no longer under their protection from the effects of the High Magic curse. When the general populace followed their leaders down into the dark, any Ellistraae worshipers were left with the choice remaining on the surface to the "mercy" of the Sun elves or remaining loyal to their families and hoping that in time they might be able to salvage the situation and reconvert them. Many chose the latter course. Thus the fate of the dark elves mirrored that of their gods. Those few dark elves who had not rejected the Selderine retreated into the forests of the south and interbred with the local Green elves, resulting in the savage, reclusive Wild elves of those regions. Please note the majority of these elves do not recognise the authority of the elven court or regard Amlaruil as their queen. Incidentally Corellon did "punish" the Sun elves for their actions. Not only did he condemn the Vyshaan and banish the remainder of the population of Aryvaandar from the High Forest but he also ensured that whilst they might rule their individual kingdoms, no Sun elf would ever have total rule over the elves. When the "moon" swords were created, no sun elf was found worthy to wield one. Many sun elves have never truly accepted this and so they are condemned by their own prejudices. Those that did were the ones who were favoured by their god. One further note: when a drow mates with an elf, the offspring is always drow in appearance. Might it be that Corellon ensured that when non drow dark elves mated with ordinary elves, the offspring always took after the other elf parent. This would also hold true when a drow had undergone Suyoll cleasing rutuil, readmitting them to fellowship. The above doesn't totally absolve Corellon from blame for the fall of the dark elves but does at least seem in keeping with a god who favours freedom of choice. |
| Stigger04-09-07, 08:03 AM | Interesting theory Alfryn, but it doesn't quite take into account Malkazid's influence over and involvement with Aryvaandar or their Vyshaan leaders. Not too sure on the take on High Magic either, never heard that it required Correllon's approval per se, but I'll admit I've never looked at the mechanics of it beyond simple skimming. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 08:19 AM | High Magic does require Corellon's approval. It's a gift from him to the Tel'Quessir. That being said: I personally don't flow with the whole Malkazid and Wendonai thing. I really am not into the thought of overt fiendish influence in the Crown Wars (other than in Ilythiiri WAY into the Wars). |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 08:20 AM | PS: I love Krash and want him to have my metaphorical Elven love-babies. Now, it's off to learn from Livy! |
| Stigger04-09-07, 08:26 AM | Well, as much as it seems to require his approval, the whole good alignment thing seems pretty questionable and tenuous if he let the Killing Storm slip by him... amongst other disastrous events High Magic seems to have caused. As to overt fiendish influence, its never stated that Malkazid was openly the patron of the Vyshaan, quite the contrary actually. |
| Old Sage04-09-07, 08:56 AM | PS: I love Krash and want him to have my metaphorical Elven love-babies.Oh, I see... It's like that is it? And here I was going to chime in with my own thoughts on this. But I know when I'm not wanted. ::Old Sage puts his hands in his pockets and walks away... kicking a pile of metaphorical sand along the way:: ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-09-07, 10:31 AM | ::Old Sage puts his hands in his pockets and walks away... kicking a pile of metaphorical sand along the way:: ;) -I'm here Sage, I'm here. You can let it all out now, it's okay... |
| Kerym Ammath04-09-07, 10:56 AM | Of course we are kind of assuming Gods are all knowing, whereas there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 11:05 AM | Well, as much as it seems to require his approval, the whole good alignment thing seems pretty questionable and tenuous if he let the Killing Storm slip by him... amongst other disastrous events High Magic seems to have caused. As to overt fiendish influence, its never stated that Malkazid was openly the patron of the Vyshaan, quite the contrary actually. It specifically stated that the Vyshaanti were the ones corrupted. Since Malkazid is known for dealing with the Aryvandaari Empire, I think it'd be safe to assume he did the corrupting, no? That being said: destruction isn't evil, just as death isn't. And Corellon is a very liberal deity. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 11:06 AM | Oh, I see... It's like that is it? And here I was going to chime in with my own thoughts on this. But I know when I'm not wanted. ::Old Sage puts his hands in his pockets and walks away... kicking a pile of metaphorical sand along the way:: Old Sage is also a cerebrally sexy beast. |
| Stigger04-09-07, 05:32 PM | Hmmm.. meant that in more of a secretive patron sort of way that the Vyshaan didn't advertise to the general populace sort of way, not that Malkazid didn't do the corrupting. As to destruction not being evil... no, not inherently. But something like the Killing Storm kinda transcends mere destruction if it left a poison in the land that endured for 11,000 years or so. That would count as overt rape and destruction of the earth in my book... I'm gonna stay silent on the metaphorical elven thing... too much opportunity for mischief. :D |
| Lord Karsus04-09-07, 08:48 PM | Of course we are kind of assuming Gods are all knowing, whereas there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. -No deity in any D&D setting is omniscient and/or omnipotent. It just doesn't work in a pantheonic setting. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 08:53 PM | As to destruction not being evil... no, not inherently. But something like the Killing Storm kinda transcends mere destruction if it left a poison in the land that endured for 11,000 years or so. That would count as overt rape and destruction of the earth in my book... Which, while not really Elven, isn't very 'evil' in my book. Not directly, at least. Of course, I'm Neutral, so. |
| Lord Karsus04-09-07, 08:58 PM | -Eh, that's debatable. But, even if it isn't "evil", it sure isn't a very nice thing to do. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-09-07, 09:16 PM | Oh, I see... It's like that is it? And here I was going to chime in with my own thoughts on this. But I know when I'm not wanted. ::Old Sage puts his hands in his pockets and walks away... kicking a pile of metaphorical sand along the way:: ;) I'll have your metaphorical Elven love-babies Sage. My husband even approves.:eek: |
| Old Sage04-09-07, 09:28 PM | Neat! You have my love... as always, Bren. ;) Then, perhaps, we'll be able to engage in debates about which 'metaphorical Elven love-babies' are more superior -- those we've produced or those that were the product of GD and Krash! :D :cool: |
| BrennonGoldeye04-09-07, 09:32 PM | Excellent...The benefits of a LeShay bloodline will come in handy..:elf: |
| Krash04-09-07, 11:33 PM | PS: I love Krash and want him to have my metaphorical Elven love-babies. Now, it's off to learn from Livy! Ah, I'm touched GD. Given that you're reading Livy, I've got a warm feeling in my "Punic" region.;) -- George Krashos |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 12:43 AM | Bwahaha. I love me some bad puns. (Which looks like 'Punic,' too!) Right. Now, I'm really going to bed. Soon. |
| Stigger04-10-07, 01:07 AM | Purposefully inflicting greivous harm on a natural environment to create a toxic wasteland that is intended to wipe out every living thing in the area of effect and poisoning the land for 10,000 years, rendering it nigh uninhabitable for most of that time isn't evil? Maybe it's just the pagan in me talking, but that's about as evil as evil gets in my book... |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 01:19 AM | If you judge good by following the tenants of a druid, I suppose. :) It's not a 'good' action, but even nature deities have historically in real life called down plagues and famines and inflicted terrible losses on the land and the environment to punish those who they felt were worthy of being punished. Well, mythologically, at least. The pagan in you probably wouldn't truly be saying it was evil, so much as it was distasteful unless it came from the agent of a deity. Before Christianity and other monotheistic religions, there was no 'good versus evil' mindset; at least, not in the same universal context. And this is why I'm labeled as "Neutral" on the D&D alignment scale. I am an absolutely amoral person, but an incredibly ethical person (as many scientists are). I believe nothing is innately sacred, good, or evil, but that certain societal customs are best kept in order for us all to live in relative harmony and happiness. Just how that's accomplished can change from one situation to the next. It's much easier to achieve such a state if you don't get as caught up on little snafu's like good and evil. "Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal." (My favorite German philosopher.) |
| Stigger04-10-07, 01:59 AM | Interesting take, but I personally do believe that there is such a thing as innately sacred, good, and evil things in this world. This I base on personal experience and conclusions, that I'll admit I consider unique to my own perspective and certainly not applicable to others in anything but the most general of ways. However, in the case of the Killing Storm, I find it difficult to fathom why Corellon would allow all that life to be just obliterated and destroyed when it served absolutely no purpose to the aims and goals of the elves, and in fact was most certainly harmful to the elven people. Sure, you could argue that he was trying to prove a point and that he thought the elves needed something to shake them up and make them step away from the violence of the Crown Wars, but that doesn't really suit that whole CG thing very well, at least my understanding of it. |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 02:04 AM | How do we know it served no goals on the divine scheme of things? And letting his children learn from their own misteps and mishaps is the epitome of a CG father figure, rather than outright banning them from doing anything harmful to themselves or others. Think of it as different methodologies of parenting on a cosmic scale. |
| Stigger04-10-07, 02:12 AM | That would be a big stretch for me... somehow I have a hard time with an elf being okay with ecological disaster. If elves, and presumably their gods, don't like the idea of humans logging forests, why would they like the idea of they themselves bringing about something like the Killing Storm? It's kinda like handing a kid a thermonuclear weapon and expecting him to use it responsibly. |
| Alfryn04-10-07, 04:51 AM | I agree with Stigger that the Killing Storm is evil and totally unelven. That the elf community as a whole agrees with this view is evidenced by the fact that it is a totally banned form of magic and whenever anyone outside the elven community (such as the mages of Netheril) have come close to discovering how to perform a non-high magic version of it, such a mage has ended up dead and all his notes destroyed. How would anyone other than a god know of their activity unless there is some mortal able to spy on every magic user in Faerun? The closest anyone can get to reproducing this magic is the Storm of Vengence spell, which is a considerably watered down version of it. This is not an evil spell per se because there are "good" gods would include it among their domain spells but then it is effective only over a very limited area and the effects are not long lasting (as in millenia). Normally one would have thought that Shar would be the deity who would know of secret studies but it is unlikely that she would be particularly bothered if someone wanted to use the Killing Storm again. Therefore I would assume that Corellon (as a god of magic) has some sort of radar working to establish if anyone is about to use it. Of course the wild elves over in the Chondalwood managed to slip past this radar in creating the tidal wave that took out Jhaamdath but then that wasn't the Killing Storm that they were using but some other form of natural disaster magic. Also the elves there were reacting to a specific threat to their homeland and it should be remembered that whilst elves have a great respect for the living world, if forced to react violently they will do so with the least risk to themselves. They have no "foolish notions about killing an opponent honourably" which is why they are so effective at killing from a distance whether by bow or magic. Also as their own society utilises the "blood oath" they would understand that only taking out the leaders of an enemy would still leave members of their family to avenge them, so particularly when dealing with other races "not of the People", they would like as not feel no qualms about eradicating a nation if it threatened their homeland. Whilst Corellon favours co-operation between races if at all possible, he is primarily concerned with the protection of the elven people and so where a human nation was threatening an elf homeland and had not responded to peaceful overtures to cease, he would no doubt feel the elf response was justified, or at the very least would not intervene to stop them. Normally it would seem that Corellon is able to influence the use of High Magic to the extent that if it goes beyond what the originators intended - as in the Sundering about to blow the planet apart - he can intervene sufficiently to bring it back under control and end it. He was also said to have had an arrangement with Mystra that would allow High Elf magic beyond the restriction that she had placed on magic generally. The problem that the elves encountered was the "backlash" effect they suffered as a result of the instablity of the Weave immediately after Mystryl's death and rebirth as Mystra, so initially after that event they kept use of High Magic to a minimum. The further in time you get away from that date, the more stable the Weave has become, though the Time of Troubles probably shook things up again. Given all the above, it would seem that the Corellon could have stopped the Killing Storm or at least reduced it's long term effects. Therefore either he didn't want to or he was unable to do so. Novel sources and info I have gleaned from reading posts would suggest the latter. In other words the Vyshan discovered a way of using High Magic without Corellon's knowledge. One idea I have had personally about this is that at Malkazid's suggestion, they made a pact with Shar to block out Corellon's knowledge of what they were doing until it had gone past the point at which he could influence it. Something I am sure she would only have been too happy to oblige with. However, following this Corellon made an appeal to AO who ruled that in future Shar was not to repeat the exercise and as punishment for interferring with his portfolio (Corellon being the god of elf magic) she should always inform him if anyone was working on developing Killing Storm magic so he could prevent it. An additional thought, if they did have a pact with Shar, this would also keep the majority of their populace from divining what they were about either. |
| Krash04-10-07, 07:32 AM | However, in the case of the Killing Storm, I find it difficult to fathom why Corellon would allow all that life to be just obliterated and destroyed when it served absolutely no purpose to the aims and goals of the elves, and in fact was most certainly harmful to the elven people. Gods don't micro-manage. -- George Krashos |
| Stigger04-10-07, 07:41 AM | But if he's granting approval of any given high magic spell out there, that would indicate he was indeed performing something remarkably similar to micro-management. I personally don't recall ever reading that he did need to approve high magic spells, but others have stated that he did, and so going by the assumption that he does indeed do so, what else are we going to presume? |
| Alediran04-10-07, 10:55 AM | In other words the Vyshan discovered a way of using High Magic without Corellon's knowledge. One idea I have had personally about this is that at Malkazid's suggestion, they made a pact with Shar to block out Corellon's knowledge of what they were doing until it had gone past the point at which he could influence it. Something I am sure she would only have been too happy to oblige with. However, following this Corellon made an appeal to AO who ruled that in future Shar was not to repeat the exercise and as punishment for interferring with his portfolio (Corellon being the god of elf magic) she should always inform him if anyone was working on developing Killing Storm magic so he could prevent it. An additional thought, if they did have a pact with Shar, this would also keep the majority of their populace from divining what they were about either. That's a good possibility. Already attached to my brain if the idea is needed in the future. |
| Lord Karsus04-10-07, 11:06 AM | One idea I have had personally about this is that at Malkazid's suggestion, they made a pact with Shar to block out Corellon's knowledge of what they were doing until it had gone past the point at which he could influence it. -Being as that Corellon Larethian is a more powerful deity than Shar, I don't see how that could really play out. |
| MaskedOne04-10-07, 11:35 AM | Shrug, Mystril had more power than you, LK. Didn't stop you from delivering a nasty surprise. Out of curiosity, is it absolutely necessary that the Killing Storm that was used be a product of High Magic. We know the Vyshaan High Magi created it but high powered magic use was more common pre-Karsus and there were a couple ways to use it. Perhaps the Vyshaan used a different method that Corellon does not directly govern. Might require a slight retcon but it counters part of the contraversy around the whole situation. |
| Lord Karsus04-10-07, 11:46 AM | Shrug, Mystril had more power than you, LK. Didn't stop you from delivering a nasty surprise. -In the end, she did get the last laugh, though. Nasty bit**. Might require a slight retcon but it counters part of the contraversy around the whole situation. -There is an article in DRAGON, issue 309 (I believe) that talks about "War Magic"- very destructive spells that work on a very large scale. If there is a retcon, I think War magic might fit the bill. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 03:44 PM | -In the end, she did get the last laugh, though. Nasty bit**. Now, now. Just bring that up at the next Vestige Interplanal Conference. Just 2 more votes and we can make her manifest as a guano beetle.;) -There is an article in DRAGON, issue 309 (I believe) that talks about "War Magic"- very destructive spells that work on a very large scale. If there is a retcon, I think War magic might fit the bill. Hmm, I do believe that the Vyshaan had actual mythals made for war. Sounds fun. Messy, but fun.:cool: |
| Alediran04-10-07, 04:03 PM | Hmm, I do believe that the Vyshaan had actual mythals made for war. Sounds fun. Messy, but fun.:cool: Last Mythal Trilogy refered to the Waymet, the last Mythal created by Aryvaandar's High Mages, the reason behind the great network of portals in Faerûn. I wonder what will happen to many of the natural portals that existed because of this Mythal. |
| Prince Indirian04-10-07, 04:21 PM | What many believed in-game, though, doesn't necessarily affect how the deities did or did not act towards the Vyshaanti. That's one of the main points I saw, here - that Corellon seemed to be sympathetic towards Sun Elves. Well, if in old editions, people only *thought* in-character that the Vyshaanti performed the Dark Disaster as a whole, and they actually DIDN'T, then Corellon would have been perfectly 'Good' in his actions in NOT banishing the whole subrace. Well the fact is Aryvandaar was behind it...besides since when did Correllon do anything ? Now, on the other hand, we DO "know out of character" that they did this. Supposedly. Of course, that makes absolutely no sense unless one assumes Corellon holds a double standard, which it's pretty obvious that he does not, judging from all of his other actions and descriptions in decades of material. No, pretty much any lvl8+ mage knows that Aryvandaar was besides it...you said it yourself on another thread about HM. But the elves don't talk aboyt this, you know its still controversial In other words... To me, at least, things just dont "add up" with the way lore is currently written. As I said before Correlleon might as well be dead, he hasn't done much in ages...The LEOF explained quite clearly how things are and they do add up. The the oddity we have is WHY Correllon don't intervine when S happens. The dude is LAZY... My point exactly. Do you really think Elaine Cunningham, who makes it VERY clear that both Sun Elves and Moon Elves are both good and bad, would make a statement about the Aryvandaari versus the Ilythiiri like she has, if things had actually gone exactly as LEoF has written? W e are talking official stuff here...OFFICIAL as in the sourcebooks... At the heart of the matter is that the Drow were meant to be a CE subrace, which were pegged onto Faerun long after Sun Elves and Moon Elves were detailed and created. No matter how the past went, the Drow were going to HAVE to become CE, somehow. The very act of trying to work in a lore-based reason for their existence has done almost as much damage to continuity and theme as not, in my opinion. Tell that to ED... |
| Eladrinstar04-10-07, 04:48 PM | I always thought it was funny that when the elves caused the Sundering. The Seldarine just go "Oops, you wrecked the world and killed countless innocents, hey, do you want a magic tree?" What the heck did they do anyway? Try to make an island in the middle of a continent? :P |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 04:49 PM | Hmm, very interesting.....:thinks: |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 04:54 PM | Wow.... I start to understand why people have such different conclusions on material. Logic works differently for each person, I guess. |
| Stigger04-10-07, 05:05 PM | Logic is hardly an absolute... and greatly depends on how one reasons things and the point of view you're coming from. |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 06:06 PM | Indeed. :) |
| Fabius Maximus04-10-07, 07:13 PM | I always thought it was funny that when the elves caused the Sundering. The Seldarine just go "Oops, you wrecked the world and killed countless innocents, hey, do you want a magic tree?" What the heck did they do anyway? Try to make an island in the middle of a continent? :P :rofl: Elven High Magic tends to go out of hand quickly, it seems. I don't think the elves of Nikerymath intended the water to stay when they drowned Jaamdath... |
| Prince Indirian04-10-07, 08:23 PM | Figures. And people wonder why I tend to exclude 3E lore... BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!! Corellon NEVER favored a specific subrace before, and the very fact that AMLARUIL, a MOON ELF, was chosen as the Chosen of the Seldarine, would suggest that he DOESN'T favor Sun Elves. So angry at 3E right now. I'm going to go take my Latin test and try to ignore all of the travesty. (Yes, Dan actually is angry that it says Corellon favors Sun Elves.) It just doesn't make sense. Krash, can you please do something to make everything line up? I'll give you something expensive and awesome. Dan...you are typing something very un-GothicDan, I am getting afraid. Truth be told he has had different portfolios in 2E as well. Some included "gold elves" other included "GOOD Elves" instead. It makes more sense to have good elves or all elves imho, rather than sunelves. Also it explains how he gave the respnisblity of the Dark elves Araushne (sp). If all elves were part of his portfolio he could have given out the portfolio to anybody he wanted... It seems kind of silly to me to simply accept everything at face value - especially when things just 'don't add up.' Namely: we've established the fact that Corellon is CG. And his actions, if they are EXACTLY as lore says, are obviously not CG. . Well his lack of actions are NOT CG (and that's the issue), personally I like your theory about the descent (Lloth involvement) and that Lloth is doing somehting that's stopping CL from reclaiming or transforming his people back again. Which would explain why CL has been "absent" on these issues. Which, while not really Elven, isn't very 'evil' in my book. Not directly, at least. Of course, I'm Neutral, so. Lawful Neutral I suppose as well:P . Either way I always thought it was quite clear that the DD was VERY evil. The Illiythy were condemned for the whole burning down trees and general destruction. The Dark Disaster made sure nothing grew un 10000 years...hmm;) . Go figure... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 09:22 PM | I'm having a little problem understanding exactly what action of Corellon's wasn't CG. Allowing His children their own free will and use of magic, even when they screw-up? Then allowing other children the same right even when it makes things worse? Sheltering the ones that held to Him during the whole fiasco? A bone please? |
| Stigger04-11-07, 01:32 AM | Had he let them play with matches, that would be one thing, but he let them play with a thermonuclear weapon without adult supervision... kinda not too good there. At the least incredibly negligent when they turned the neighbors house into the proverbial nuclear wasteland. |
| Alfryn04-11-07, 09:10 AM | I'm having a little problem understanding exactly what action of Corellon's wasn't CG. Allowing His children their own free will and use of magic, even when they screw-up? Then allowing other children the same right even when it makes things worse? Sheltering the ones that held to Him during the whole fiasco? A bone please? I think the main problem people has is the fact that it has been stated that ALL DARK ELVES, not just the Illythiir were affected by the divine curse. It was after all a spell performed by priests and mages with the aid of the Selderine after centuries of prayer asking for relief. So given that the elves acknowledged that they needed divine aid to solve the problem of the Crown Wars and deal with the actions of the corrupt Illythiir in particular, one assumes that Corellon could have made sure it worked properly. Instead by implication large numbers of dark elves, including those of Meyeritar, who were certainly more sinned against than sinning, were cast out from fellowship with the rest of the elves through no fault of their own. Chaotic Good respects individual freedom which should include giving these elves the CHOICE whether or not they wanted to be lumped in with the corrupt Illythiir. This is why there has to be some addition reason why all dark elves were affected and the best one I have come up with is that whilst not all dark elves were guilty of the attrocities of the Illythiir, the majority had turned away from the Selderine and so if the spell was directed at say, "those who worship gods not of the People", in other words not of the Selderine, it would take in those who worshipped Eilistraae because she was cast out of the Selderine and at that time was residing somewhere other than Arvandor. |
| GothicDan04-11-07, 09:25 AM | And it's stated explicitely that the Ritual cast was NOT meant to include all Dark Elves. It was an accident, spawning from unforeseen effects that aren't even stated in the lore at all. This means... That there's a MYSTERY behind it that we have to actually think about, rather than saying "NOTHING MAKES SENSE!" I tried to do that in my theory about Lolth using her former influence as Araushnee, dark goddess of fate, to somehow affect the 'fate' of the magic while Corellon wasn't looking or the like (perhaps he turned away, tears in his eyes, disgusted and appalled..) It's up to US to explain why the Ritual went wrong, but the fact of the matter is that it DID go wrong. It's like saying that whever goes wrong in a Wild Magic Zone that you had no idea was there is your fault. Maybe Lolth sacrificed tens of thousands of Abyssal spirits to release a sort of Entropy Maelstrom in the the 'Web Pits; and it echoed throughout time and space and sent a wave of chaos and disorder through the Weave at the time of casting, and since it was performed in the Abyss, the Seldarine may have been in large part blind to its coming. |
| Stigger04-11-07, 09:29 AM | Influence she no longer actually had as far as we know... unless you're saying she affected the magic long before it was even cast... which doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be honest. Not that I have a better explanation mind you... ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-11-07, 11:08 AM | Influence she no longer actually had as far as we know... unless you're saying she affected the magic long before it was even cast... which doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be honest. Not that I have a better explanation mind you... ;) -Theoretically, she could have seen what was coming. We don't know how long Araushnee was maintaining her facade while plotting to overthrow Corellon Larethian. As the Dark Elven deity of fate and destiny, she theoretically could have seen the Drow being cast into the Underdark, and set plans in motion that would have caused her to benefit from it. Of course, things might have changed, such as her being cast from the Seldarine and all, but maybe once the pieces began to move, they could not be stopped. |
| Alfryn04-11-07, 12:03 PM | And it's stated explicitely that the Ritual cast was NOT meant to include all Dark Elves. It was an accident, spawning from unforeseen effects that aren't even stated in the lore at all. This means... That there's a MYSTERY behind it that we have to actually think about, rather than saying "NOTHING MAKES SENSE!" .......... .....Maybe Lolth sacrificed tens of thousands of Abyssal spirits to release a sort of Entropy Maelstrom in the the 'Web Pits; and it echoed throughout time and space and sent a wave of chaos and disorder through the Weave at the time of casting, and since it was performed in the Abyss, the Seldarine may have been in large part blind to its coming. I rather like this explanation. By the time of the Ritual Lolth was a goddess again and would have her portfolio of chaos, so perfectly in keeping with it and her hatred of Corellon to "put a spanner in the works" so to speak. As a matter of interest, if she is in some way able to influence the working of magic by an injection of chaos, could she have done something similar to interfere with the workings of the Killing Storm spell so it became far more potent and destructive than they originally intended? |
| GothicDan04-11-07, 01:14 PM | I'd think so, but there's no explicit material that states anything about the Killing Storm was accidental. So, while I don't like the Vyshaanti being definitively associated with it, I wouldn't go that far. (Gasp! I'm using logic even when it doesn't support my argument. ;) ) Of course, as I said, I'd still make the casters of the Killing Storm somewhat ambiguous. Perhaps it was a coalition of Vyshaanti High Magi AND Ilythiiri who, due to the corrupted influence of Lolth, destroyed Miyeritar only to drive the Ilythiiri into further levels of depravity... Hmmmm! |
| GothicDan04-11-07, 01:15 PM | Influence she no longer actually had as far as we know... unless you're saying she affected the magic long before it was even cast... which doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be honest. Not that I have a better explanation mind you... Deific events exist outside the time of Prime Material Events. And as a former goddess of fate and complex, arachnoid schemes, I think it'd be well within her area of experience to predict and affect things before they actually happened. Perhaps, when she was still Araushnee, she started a self-generating web of disastrous effects that would give power to her former Abyssal self, allowing her to later defile the ritual... |
| Ramenth04-11-07, 04:40 PM | Prince, I hate to point this out to you, but the novels are considered to be official cannon unless they directly contradict the source books. |
| Stigger04-11-07, 07:22 PM | Right, so Labolas didn't see the temporal ripples and react to them... gotcha. :P As to deific events occurring outside of the 'time stream', I have a difficult time swallowing that one, though I know it's official policy. Just one that makes absolutely no sense to me in a lot of respects, beyond being a safety net to cover some slipups on chronology. Though really, it's kinda pointless to try to divine the intentions and actions of deities considering the amount of information we have on the matter. Though the speculation is kinda fun. :D |
| Prince Indirian04-11-07, 08:35 PM | Prince, I hate to point this out to you, but the novels are considered to be official cannon unless they directly contradict the source books. Yeah, I have so before, but due to the fact that quite a few novels simply put contradict sourcebooks in some instances (for various reasons) I yake some things with the proverbial pinch of salt. But thanks for it anyway, it's always good informing others. no hard feelings there from me at least. |
| Prince Indirian04-11-07, 08:39 PM | Right, so Labolas didn't see the temporal ripples and react to them... gotcha. :P As to deific events occurring outside of the 'time stream', I have a difficult time swallowing that one, though I know it's official policy. Just one that makes absolutely no sense to me in a lot of respects, beyond being a safety net to cover some slipups on chronology. Though really, it's kinda pointless to try to divine the intentions and actions of deities considering the amount of information we have on the matter. Though the speculation is kinda fun. :D Actually, deities (generally speaking) can forsee actions several days before it actually happens as long as it tied to their domains/portfolio. So from a 3E point of view, Correllon shoild have known it would happen. |
| GothicDan04-11-07, 08:58 PM | Let's not bring up 3E mechanics about deities... It'll only end in tears. :) |
| Old Sage04-11-07, 09:21 PM | And the last thing I want is to see GD cry about 3e stats for deities... because it'll only reduce me to tears as well. :P |
| Prince Indirian04-11-07, 10:02 PM | Let's not bring up 3E mechanics about deities... It'll only end in tears. :) Heehe, well the point still stands, but alas what Prince would I be if I reduced a man to tears ? ;) By the way did you enjoy 300 ? |
| GothicDan04-11-07, 11:03 PM | Enjoyed? Sure. It was a good action flick. (And nothing more.) I'm not very emotionally charged by such things, though (and I had to keep my history mouth shut as much as possible). Also, eye candy. Also, <3 for the Aussie Sage! |
| Old Sage04-11-07, 11:32 PM | GD, aside from the Lady K, you're the only other individual whom I would ever allow to address me as "Aussie"... as much as I dislike the term itself. ;) You're that cool! :cool: |
| Prince Indirian04-11-07, 11:34 PM | Enjoyed? Sure. It was a good action flick. (And nothing more.) I'm not very emotionally charged by such things, though (and I had to keep my history mouth shut as much as possible). Well that something I have learned to live with. Especially those god-awful thongs....:mad: Also, eye candy. Hehe, I knew you would like the so called "eye candy":D...that's why asked |
| Stigger04-12-07, 09:09 AM | And yet unfortunately, those 3e mechanics for deities still persist as the law of the land until WotC says otherwise... poor Dan... :P |
| Lord Karsus04-12-07, 09:11 AM | -Just as a question, has anyone ever actually used those deific stats? |
| Stigger04-12-07, 09:12 AM | Not even once on my part... never even read them all that carefully because they don't exist in principle for me. Mortal vs. God = dead mortal in my book. :D |
| Karsus the Mad04-12-07, 09:23 AM | -Just as a question, has anyone ever actually used those deific stats? Only when it suits my purpose of bringing chaos and displeasure to people by being able to point to specific passages to crush their fanaticism to a deity's ability to do X or Y :evillaugh In my home game however, not a :censored: chance. |
| Lord Karsus04-12-07, 09:24 AM | -I agree. The "Deities should not have stats" argument is one of those..."controversial" (not really the best word, but...) things, that fragment us D&D players. Mind you, I don't know too much about how other people play D&D, but no one ever seems to actually use those stats, even those who support deities having them. ::shrug:: |
| Old Sage04-12-07, 11:25 AM | I simply don't include the gods long enough in my campaigns to warrant the use of their stats. In my FR, the gods usually do not involve themselves in mortal affairs, except for those extremely rare events that few people are even aware of, or remember for that matter. Rather, the gods exist as 'unknowable agents of fate' who pull the strings 'behind the curtain' -- they are simply part of the way of things, not existing as interference from without. |
| zerodeviere04-15-07, 08:47 PM | About the dark elves.... corellon is like the other gods that dont interfere with free will to much. he gave the elves the spell to cast to change the dark elves but they also used elven High magic to cast it and if you know their history anytime they use it on something major something bad happens as well. and having it affect ALL the dark elves is one of those things. IMO they didnt care about which ones to affect just to get it done. like someone said all the dark elves werent bad .. but also Lloth didnt have anything to do with it. she was a demon not a diety anymore. she only got major power as a diety again when she saw that her son was using the dark elves as followers and then she decided to start with that as well. Its all in the Elves of Evermeet book. just gotta read what it says exactly and not try to imagine things in between the lines. |
| zerodeviere04-15-07, 08:56 PM | As far as the gods go they do get involved especially the ones with chosen like Mystra and Bane but another god Mask is always active in the lives of his followers. Ticks me off to that with all the powers the chosen of Mystra have she still swoops in to save them from time to time. |
| Stigger04-16-07, 01:52 AM | Think of it as protecting an investment. ;) |
| ZCalibur04-17-07, 09:02 PM | So, the ancient Sharns were elves who were given a massive boost in power via a "Borg" like template or something similar to that? Interesting. Here I always thought the Sharns were a massively powerful reptilian race that predated the sarrukh and were one of the five creator races. If the elves were the Sharns of myth and legend then who were the other four creator races? I'm assuming they were the Dragons, the Giants, the Sarrukh, and the Fey. |
| ZCalibur04-17-07, 09:13 PM | It ticks me off to that with all the powers the chosen of Mystra have she still swoops in to save them from time to time. Think of it as protecting an investment. Darn tootin! The gods have to be more careful and watchful of their followers now. Otherwise Ao will get massively peeved again and banish the lot of them to Faerun as mortal beings again. We all saw how well that worked out for Bhaal, Gilgeam, Ibrandul, Leira, Myrkul, and Ramman no? Sadly I think the gods are heading for an even greater punishment than before. Lathander being the typical naive moron that he is is working on a new version of the spell that caused the Dawn Cataclysm and Bane and Cyric are in conflict as well as Mystra and Shar. This means two greater gods are going to eventually get sucked up into two other greater gods and Lathander in a desperate attempt to end the damage will cause a new Dawn Cataclysm. Ao is going to get righteously ****** this time around believe you me. I for one shudder at the thought of getting an Overpower ****** off. |
| Karsus the Mad04-17-07, 11:20 PM | So, the ancient Sharns were elves who were given a massive boost in power via a "Borg" like template or something similar to that? Interesting. Here I always thought the Sharns were a massively powerful reptilian race that predated the sarrukh and were one of the five creator races. If the elves were the Sharns of myth and legend then who were the other four creator races? I'm assuming they were the Dragons, the Giants, the Sarrukh, and the Fey. The sarrukh, batrachi, aearee, fey, and humans are the 5 creator races. Some sages leave out the aearee and include dragons. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 11:21 PM | I would personally not include Dragons. They seem something above and beyond creator races, something separate from them altogether. I found myself starting to make a sort of Creator Race-like setup of races for my own homebrew worlds, based on alternate possible forms of intelligent evolution, according to species: reptile, some sort of aquatic (was thinking cephalopods or dolphin), avian, insect, and mammal of some sort. I'm completely eschewing all normal fantasy races (and humans), so I figured that starting with a Pangaea-like continent millions of years ago was a good start on the path of evolution. ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 11:27 PM | (was thinking cephalopods or dolphin) -What movie was that? It's a very foggy memory, but I vaguely recall seeing a movie where dolphins were actually intelligent sentients all along. From what I can extrapolate from the haze that is my mind, we Humans angered them so much that they simply left the Earth. Don't ask... |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 11:29 PM | It's from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is also one of the best book series in existence, you steenking eediot. |
| Karsus the Mad04-17-07, 11:59 PM | I would personally not include Dragons. They seem something above and beyond creator races, something separate from them altogether. Neither do I. For one, I don't think they're native to Toril (as in evolved there), which is one of the aspects that make a progenitor race...well, a progenitor race. Each have naturally evolved on Toril, and have created numerous other races. I found myself starting to make a sort of Creator Race-like setup of races for my own homebrew worlds, based on alternate possible forms of intelligent evolution, according to species: reptile, some sort of aquatic (was thinking cephalopods or dolphin), avian, insect, and mammal of some sort. I'm completely eschewing all normal fantasy races (and humans), so I figured that starting with a Pangaea-like continent millions of years ago was a good start on the path of evolution. I've tried that. Pretty bloody difficult really. I have a "First Ones", which I suppose could roughly equate to a Creator Race. They were the first sentient creatures to appear, way way back in the mists of creations. At that time in the past, the world was young, and (metaphorically/maybe litterally, haven't decided) was still trying to figure things out as it were. So the first creatures to come about were inherently immortal. It wasn't until eons later that the world recognized that in order to value something, there has to be a risk of losing it (a concept it came to when one of it's mini-moons was shattered by an astroid). It was only then that it recognized how much it cared for that lil' rock. So, it passed this risk of loss onto all new creations and created disease and death. The old immortals eventually died off (through disease, lonliness, etc), save for a few. The very first creature to ever be given sentience is still around. Myth simply referrs to "it" as the mage-emperor (kind of a "when all is everlasting and immortal, there's no need for procreation, without procreation, there's no need for gender" type of thing). However, after the introduction of all the above concepts, evolution was an unforseen consequence, and as such affected all things. Thus while the few immortals left are everlasting (within limits of course), they do evolve like every other species. I haven't yet decided as to whether or not it's evolved past corporeality yet or not. I'm intrigued by the concept, but not particularly secure in my understanding of it. Anyway, I'm rambling again. It's from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is also one of the best book series in existence, you steenking eediot. I like the rats myself. World building...hmmmm...is that music I hear?:D So long and thanks for all the fish So sad that it should come to this We tried to warn you all but oh dear? You may not share our intellect Which might explain your disrespect For all the natural wonders that grow around you So long, so long and thanks for all the fish The world's about to be destroyed There's no point getting all annoyed Lie back and let the planet dissolve Despite those nets of tuna fleets We thought that most of you were sweet Especially tiny tots and your pregnant women So long, so long, so long, so long, so long So long, so long, so long, so long, so long So long, so long and thanks for all the fish (yeah) So long and thanks for all the fish So sad that it should come to this We tried to warn you all but oh dear? (oh dear) Despite those nets of tuna fleets We thought that most of you were sweet Especially tiny tots and your pregnant women So long, so long, so long, so long, so long So long, so long, so long, so long, so long So long, so long and thanks for all the fish |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:02 AM | I've tried that. Pretty bloody difficult really. I have a "First Ones", which I suppose could roughly equate to a Creator Race. They were the first sentient creatures to appear, way way back in the mists of creations. At that time in the past, the world was young, and (metaphorically/maybe litterally, haven't decided) was still trying to figure things out as it were. So the first creatures to come about were inherently immortal. It wasn't until eons later that the world recognized that in order to value something, there has to be a risk of losing it (a concept it came to when one of it's mini-moons was shattered by an astroid). It was only then that it recognized how much it cared for that lil' rock. So, it passed this risk of loss onto all new creations and created disease and death. The old immortals eventually died off (through disease, lonliness, etc), save for a few. The very first creature to ever be given sentience is still around. Myth simply referrs to "it" as the mage-emperor (kind of a "when all is everlasting and immortal, there's no need for procreation, without procreation, there's no need for gender" type of thing). However, after the introduction of all the above concepts, evolution was an unforseen consequence, and as such affected all things. Thus while the few immortals left are everlasting (within limits of course), they do evolve like every other species. I haven't yet decided as to whether or not it's evolved past corporeality yet or not. I'm intrigued by the concept, but not particularly secure in my understanding of it. Anyway, I'm rambling again. Yes, but it was good rambling. I like that idea - of the First Ones and the genderless Mage-Emperor... I'm not sure if I want to go down the uber-fantastical route (like Perdido Street Station, Planescape, etc.) or the historical fiction fantasy (like A Song of Ice and Fire). So, without having made that decision yet, it severely limits my attempts to flesh out races, creation, etc. |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 12:10 AM | It's from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is also one of the best book series in existence, you steenking eediot. -Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever...:whatsthis |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 12:11 AM | The sarrukh, batrachi, aearee, fey, and humans are the 5 creator races. Some sages leave out the aearee and include dragons.I usually include the aearee, since we've plenty of sources to make this connection -- Serpent Kingdoms, The Savage Frontier, Dragons of Faerûn and references in [i]Lords of Darkness [1e] and Powers & Pantheons as well. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:18 AM | -Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever... Read it or I'll slash my/your wrists! |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 12:23 AM | Read it or I'll slash my/your wrists! -First, tell me why you didn't quote my witty use of the ':whatsthis' emoticon!? |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:23 AM | I hate emoticons! |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 12:27 AM | -Yes, indeed, you do. Well, i'm going to be going to sleep soon, and I'm going to put the internet to a slightly better use before I do. Goodnight all... |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:28 AM | You just don't want to talk to me any more. </3 I want a divorce. |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 12:30 AM | I'd like to see those court proceedings... :D |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:31 AM | Amaunator would make a good judge. EDIT: Has anyone else noted how vaguely Egyptian mao looks? Amun's/Amon's in there, Atun's in there, Ra's in there... In fact, you can construct both Atun and Ra out of it, with Amo left over.. Almost Amon. |
| Karsus the Mad04-18-07, 01:10 AM | I usually include the aearee, since we've plenty of sources to make this connection -- Serpent Kingdoms, The Savage Frontier, Dragons of Faerûn and references in [i]Lords of Darkness [1e] and Powers & Pantheons as well. Something that's nagging at me. Did the fey evolve on Toril? I had thought they were otherworldly in origin, however I've read that they were native to Toril, but overtime withdrew. I can't remember where I read that either... Yes, but it was good rambling. I like that idea - of the First Ones and the genderless Mage-Emperor... Note that "Mage-Emperor" is purposely misleading in several regards. It's neither a mage (in the standard sense) nor an emperor or ruler of any kind. It was originally a symbolic reference of respect to it's age, wisdom, and experience given to it by other races in the past, both native and otherworldly. It's also a nod of acknowledgement that it's in some way a 'perversion' of nature's will, being the unintended accident it is. Over the several millenia of myths younger races have come to the misconception that if it does exist, it must be vastly powerful (with everything that entails to a mortal mind), and has become a focus for entire nations to rally campaigns in search of it every few generations or so. |
| MarkusTay6304-18-07, 01:30 AM | ...And even Aryvandaar's first openly 'aggressive' actions towards Miyeritar were only made after centuries of peaceful diplomatic negotiations. If the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar had truly been evil and corrupt, there would have been no reason for the Vyshaan to even attempt peaceful overtures at all; they would have attacked immediately. For they proved, in time, that they obviously had the military might to decimate Miyeritar, when they so desired. Hmmm... century one - "Hey, you guys wanna join us?" century two -"Are you sure you don't want to join us?" century three - "You really SHOULD join us..." century four - "You had BETTER join us!" century five - invasion..... They PESTERED them to join them, and when they didn't they attacked. I think we have VERY different ideas about 'negotiations', Dan. The greatest crimes that were comitted by the Illythiir was the burning of the forests. The wars started by the Arvyandaar against everyone else had far more casualties, they decimated entire populations. I think its a little weird that the Sun Elves killed hundreds of thousands of sentient being with the Sundering (an incredibly SELFISH act) and not only did the Seldarine approve but HELPED THEM! The Illythiir burn some woods and the ENTIRE race, including the Miyeritar and any other groups of Dark Elves living ANYWHERE in the entire universe were cursed FOREVER. Considering that Corellon always treated the Dark Elves like 'red-headed step-children', its no small wonder that the Dark Elves went off the deep end. Corellon is the patron for all other land-bound Elven sub-races, but he gave the Dark Elves to Auranshee. After he cast her out of Arvandar and cursed her as Ta'nari, he SHOULD HAVE taken back the Dark Elves, but NEVER did. Is it any small wonder that they went elsewhere seeking devine favor after that insensitive cosmic slap-in-the-face?! The Dark Elves needed therapy, not derision and cursing. They had extreme Abandonment issues! I hear that when they went to other Elf cities, they had to ride in the back of the coaches and had to drink from their own fountains. :P ;) Something that's nagging at me. Did the fey evolve on Toril? I had thought they were otherworldly in origin, however I've read that they were native to Toril, but overtime withdrew. I can't remember where I read that either...I never liked that they evolved on Toril, since they are present on nearly every single world. Races like Elves and Dwarves came from 'elsewhere', but making the Fey a creator race forces them to have come from Toril. So this is what I am thinking - they are actually MUCH older then the others, probably the ORIGINAL sentient race. The other three probably thought they came later because they were SO good at hiding themselves. Illusion (Glamours) is second nature to the fey - one could have been best friends with a Sarruhk or Batrachi and the other race would never have known it. So, here is my latest concept... instead of the Fey coming FROM Fäerie, they actually created Fäerie as an extra-dimensional hide-away, like what the Star Elves did when they created Sildeyuir. In fact, recently I've been doing some work on the Kara-Tur region and I find the Maraloi full of possibilities. They were ancient Elf-like race that dissapeared. Maybe they were some sort of 'missing-link' between the ancient creator Fey and the modern Elves? Who knows, but it sure is fun thinking about. :D |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 03:17 AM | Something that's nagging at me. Did the fey evolve on Toril? I had thought they were otherworldly in origin, however I've read that they were native to Toril, but overtime withdrew. I can't remember where I read that either...Fey are native to Toril. :smirk: |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 07:34 AM | While at the same time predating the creation of the FRCS itself. Hows that for "faerie majik":D |
| Karsus the Mad04-18-07, 11:10 AM | Fey are native to Toril. :smirk: Did they evolve there...did they even evolve:confused: Or had they always been there, or came from elsewhere but existed on Toril for so long that they simply became native? |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 11:36 AM | century one - "Hey, you guys wanna join us?" century two -"Are you sure you don't want to join us?" century three - "You really SHOULD join us..." century four - "You had BETTER join us!" century five - invasion..... They PESTERED them to join them, and when they didn't they attacked. I think we have VERY different ideas about 'negotiations', Dan. When did I say none of the above happened? The greatest crimes that were comitted by the Illythiir was the burning of the forests. The wars started by the Arvyandaar against everyone else had far more casualties, they decimated entire populations. I think its a little weird that the Sun Elves killed hundreds of thousands of sentient being with the Sundering (an incredibly SELFISH act) and not only did the Seldarine approve but HELPED THEM! You're obviously misreading some things. First of all, the Ilythiiri did worse than burned down trees. I specifically quoted them above. And secondly, the Sundering was done by ALL Elves at the time, and the Seldarine are the ones that PUNISHED them by making the High Magic Ritual go wrong. It wasn't SUPPOSED to destroy the land; it was only supposed to make them a home. The Illythiir burn some woods and the ENTIRE race, including the Miyeritar and any other groups of Dark Elves living ANYWHERE in the entire universe were cursed FOREVER. And WHY do you think the ritual went wrong, Mark? It's specifically stated that the Elves only tried to cursed the Ilythiiri, but SOMETHING went *wrong* with the ritual. Considering that Corellon always treated the Dark Elves like 'red-headed step-children', its no small wonder that the Dark Elves went off the deep end. Sources, please. LEoF's first mention of the Ilythiiri's deific tendencies were the ones I stated above. The only other entry given before was Lolth's attack against Corellon; and then, the Ilythiiri started to worship evil deities, mirroring their patroness's fall. After he cast her out of Arvandar and cursed her as Ta'nari, he SHOULD HAVE taken back the Dark Elves, but NEVER did. What do you mean 'take back'? He never put them out - only Lolth. Again, please give references. Is it any small wonder that they went elsewhere seeking devine favor after that insensitive cosmic slap-in-the-face?! Still waiting to see that slap in the face. I'm really starting to think you're working yourself into a self-righteous frenzy for the Drow and forgetting to use actual facts... I mean, it's good that you're getting into character and all, but I'm trying to have an OOC discussion with you. ;) I hear that when they went to other Elf cities, they had to ride in the back of the coaches and had to drink from their own fountains. Yeah, and the Ilythiiri kept slaves of the surface elves before Aryvandaar was even formed, according to the Evermeet novel! |
| MarkusTay6304-18-07, 12:05 PM | Did they evolve there...did they even evolve:confused: Or had they always been there, or came from elsewhere but existed on Toril for so long that they simply became native? For what it's worth - I have it now IMG that the Fey originated on Toril (the Original Creator Race, not all of the current native fey beings). They had become masters of magic, mostly do to their deep connection with it. Faerie magic uses 'pure' magic, not the stuff diluted by the weave, and have become permeated with it through the eons. They became especially good at transport magic (teleport, portals, speed) and Illusions (Glamours). Because of their affinity for portals, they created hundreds, perhaps thousands, of portals to other realms and planes. Some would leave Toril for hundreds years at a time, but they would always return eventually to their home world (This was during the days of Thunder). This was for two reasons - 1) The grew homesick for the beautiful lush place they came from, and 2) the land itself had become in a way a source of their power; when away from it for too long they would begin to lose their magical nature. When the Saruhk, Batrachi, and Aerie arose they infiltrated these races (having become masters of deception while exploring other worlds) and decided that their home had become 'polluted', as it were. Their Queen Danu (whom had become so powerful that she had attained demi-godhood) used a magic ritual (the first high magic?) to tear their part of the world away from Toril and create their own demi-plane (Fäerie). The region left behind was a dryed-out husk of a wasteland, now the Osse Outback, which still to this day has many huge magical dead zones. A great many members of the Fey races that had been created decided to stay, but the only way to retain their intrinsicly magical nature were to form bounds with the land again. Dryads are just one example of that, but most Fey have ties to a certain place or thing. Those that do not, like centaurs, have lost their magical nature. Some have invented more elaborate means, like the many creatures of the Moonshaes, who have used the ancient Fey portals to periodically travel to Fäerie to 'replenish' their magic. Fäerie Rings are still located throughout Abeir-Toril, marking these ancient portals. Many of these portals have layed dormant for untold millenia, and the worlds that they lead to have Forgotten the Realms on the other side...... ;) P.S. The surviving Creator Fey are now called Le'Shay, and many still dwell in Fäerie. Danu gave birth to two daughters, Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness (whose real name has been lost to time), and then ascended into the heavens. Most Fey today venerate Titania and Oberon (her cosort), but they still hold a special reverance for Danu which is unusal for this oft-flightly people. The Unseelie Fey (the Dark Fey) even feel this way about Danu, even though they venerate her evil daughter and not Titania. For the DM - Danu may have had connections with Jannath, which would explain the worship of the 'Earth Mother' (The Goddess, Danu) of the Moonshaes getting mixed together with Chauntee. These two goddesses either have a combined aspect in this region (like the Elven godess Angarradh) or one has been absorbed by the other, in which case it is most likely that Chauntee absorbed Danu given the current situation. |
| MarkusTay6304-18-07, 12:37 PM | Sorry for the DP, just noticed Dan's post. I read everything, and I get a feel for what happened (mostly from The Elves of Evermeet novel). You read the same material and see something different. That happens... thats why we have wars. I know I'm gonna take slack for this, but have you ever really even 'listened' to the Gold (and some Silver) Elves refer to the other Elven subraces? By 'listen', I mean reading the conversations in novels and some source. Going further afield, since until 3e all the worlds were connected, have you read ANYTHING concerning the Elves on Krynn? I would have to assume that they too were immigrants from Fäerie (and hinted at that in my Dark Elven article). The 'Gold' Elves treated the Wood and Wild Elves like animals - at least slaves are usually considered human (or demi-human). The arrogance of the Elven leaders on that world I think goes even further then it does on Toril, and since they didn't have Dark Elves to kick around they picked on the poor primitive Wood Elves. I never read any of the Dragonlance novels for that reason, because I have several of the sourcebooks and don't like what I see. Even on Greyhawk the High Elves were aloof and stand-offish from other cultures. Up until the second Crown war (note - the Ilythiir Elves were not even in the first one so they were not their fault) the Illythiir had not done anything that made them worse then Aryvandaar. The War of Three Leaves was just a brilliant piece of espionage of one nation against its neighbores, weakening their positions so as to to retain their position of strength. That is not evil, that is just the way the world works and it happens ALL the time. Only the northern city-states showed their evil nature by taking slaves, and that is why those Illythiir Elves moved north away from the prying eyes of their fellow dark Elves. Today, the Drow take 'battle-captives' during a war or raid, which they consider fair and just. Many primitive Earth cultures did much the same thing; Vikings had thralls as I mentioned earlier, but many meso-American and Mediterranean cultures did the same. If you read the Wheel of Time series, the Aiel are not evil, yet they take battle-captives (who must serve them for a year and a day). Slavery may be evil to us in todays modern world, but it is a way of life for many post-modern cultures (including early America). No, I would have to say the ONLY truly evil act they committed was burning the forests... but we did much the same thing in Vietnam with Napalm. It is a way of ferreting out one's enemies. I'm sorry Daniel, but you seem to be persecuting an entire race for the actions of its leaders, and I cannot abide that. Most of the Illythiir were just warriors, fighting a cause in which they believed. It was their leadership that trafficked with Demons and dark Gods. Should ALL Germans be tortured because of the insanity of the Nazis? From what I read, most hated the Nazis but were afraid of them. Does that sound like a people who deserved to be punished, just do to inaction out of fear? It's amazing what strong leaders can convince entire populations of... just look at those poor simpletons living in Aryvandaar. ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 12:47 PM | KtM and Markus , lets just say that Fey are "Native" on several different planes. That's part of what makes us so darn nifty.:D I don't think you would get much arguement from Sage on that. :ayyyy!: Markus. I think Dan makes very very good points #180 as to the truth of the acts, not the legend left over. Through some spies I happen to know that Wendonai participated in both rituals.:P OK, maybe not.;) The point is that things, especially manifestation of intent, go wrong. All the time. I call the wrong "evil", "tyranny", and "Planters removing CheeseBalls". Some call it "choas" , "undeath", or "fanaticism". I know one sweet soul who names wrong as "Debbie".;) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 12:50 PM | As to post #182. Aye Markus, now give those folk the want to live for 500 years instead of 70. Makes one even quieter. Or sneakier.:) |
| MarkusTay6304-18-07, 04:20 PM | I'm not saying that Drow are not evil bastiches, but that just doesn't necessarily mean that all the Illythiir were. Look at our own country, people follow their leaders, right or wrong. I would not even have argued for Dark Elves back in my old Greyhawk days, each and every one of them deserved to die. But authors have changed that. Now we see them as a frightened race of bullys, all of whom fear everyone above them and cow everyone below them so as to keep from get a knife in the back. Would you want to live that way? Would any sane person? Even matron Baenre lives in fear... of Lolth! Sometimes it might just be better to be a nobody in Drow society, because when you have any power you have enemies. A nobody might get stabbed by a rival, but just think about all the badness that happens to a matron Mother when she pisses off Lolth. It seems that nearly every single drow that has had a chance to be free of the matron mothers (aside from the priestesses, and even they have their renegades) has taken it! Even most of the Vhaerun worshippers in Cormanthor just want to be left alone. Think about it, the thing a Drow must cherish the most is a few moments of quiet solitude, with no worries about dying in the next few minutes. That is why Drizzt likes to go off on his own and reflect - because HE CAN! That desire for 'inner peace' is something all drow yearn for but most can never have. That is why Elistrae's worshippers are willing to sacrifice themselves so readily for their godesses cause - they have known that peace, and a few moments of that are worth more then a lifetime under the cruel yoke of a Drow city. Lolth controls her people through fear, not love. Remember that - they are, for the most part, unwilling servants of evil. Pity them... pity them all.... :weep: |
| Karsus the Mad04-18-07, 04:56 PM | Pity them... pity them all....:weep: I shall pity them with sword and spell! :mage::duel: :fight!: |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 05:40 PM | You just don't want to talk to me any more. </3 I want a divorce. -Now, that's not true! You see, I was downloading the new version of Internet Explorer, so I couldn't stay and chat anymore. But, this new version of IE will allow me to spend more time in the future with you. So, in fact, by leaving a little earlier last night, I'll get to spend more time with you in the future. See? It all works out. Just look at the broad picture! :D -Now, hopefully, I don't die tomorrow. That's be just my luck. :rolleyes: And secondly, the Sundering was done by ALL Elves at the time, and the Seldarine are the ones that PUNISHED them by making the High Magic Ritual go wrong. It wasn't SUPPOSED to destroy the land; it was only supposed to make them a home. -Eh, I don't think so. It is specifically stated that the Magi of Illythir were not invited to help in the ritual, because of their agressive, "less-than-nice" ways. Ilythiir was, really, the major center of Dark Elves. So, that guarantees that if there were very few Dark Elven High Magi involved, if any. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 06:40 PM | Up until the second Crown war (note - the Ilythiir Elves were not even in the first one so they were not their fault) the Illythiir had not done anything that made them worse then Aryvandaar. Right there, we differ. LEoF makes it EXPLICIT that they were evil BEFORE the Crown Wars. It's written there in black and white. I don't understand how you can argue otherwise - seriously. I am completely and utterly dumbfounded. |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 08:21 PM | Going further afield, since until 3e all the worlds were connected, have you read ANYTHING concerning the Elves on Krynn? I would have to assume that they too were immigrants from Fäerie (and hinted at that in my Dark Elven article).The elves of Krynn are native to that particular world. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 08:29 PM | Indeed. In that world, Paladine created them. Takhisis created the Irda. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 10:43 PM | Ah, 2 aspects playing alchemist. Fun all around.:) |
| Stigger04-19-07, 11:48 AM | Sure they were beginning their slide into evil before the Crown Wars, but they hadn't done anything specifically worse than Aryvandaar, at least that we know of. And they never did anything on the sheer scale of the Dark Disaster that I'm aware of... which I suspect was Markus' point. |
| Prince Indirian04-19-07, 12:39 PM | Notice that Aryvandaar murdered high priests and High Mages to prevent these from banishing them in the same manner as the dark elves...maybe that's why they didn't get as much of a punishment...besides being overthrown etc... |
| Stigger04-19-07, 02:19 PM | True, but that little snippet of history seems to have been glossed over by a few of the more pro sun-elf types around here... of course they'd have us believe that the Sun Elves didn't actually have much to do with it in the first place... ;) :D |
| MarkusTay6304-19-07, 06:02 PM | Why does Corellon need to do anything? The magic of the curse should have broken down and weakened over time, as all such magic does. I think that if the authors wanted to bring them back, they could just come back an nothing at all would happen. As far as turning back the others... why? Are you saying they should be ashamed of the way they look? AFAIK no Elistraae worshipper has EVER desired to be lighter in skin (unlike Michael Jackson). I think offering to "turn them back" would be just as much as an affront as Corellon's turning his back on them in the first place. What Corellon needs to do is let it be known, probably by appearing to every single Elf (or at least the Drow) WITH Elistraae, that the Dark Elves are now welcome in Arvandor, and there is a place for them among the Seldarine through his daughter's church. He can do this by appearing to them with her over all of the drow cities; the clergy will try to tell everyone it's a hoax, but seeds of rebellion will have been planted. By making Elistraae a Seldarine, you fix EVERYTHING in one fell swoop. The only physical 'change' I might consider un-insulting would be a blessing of Elistraae, performed by her clergy, that would take away the drows light-sensitivity (make it like the Dwarves, so they wouldn't lose their darkvision). If you go by 2e, or my netbook article, you could say they merely lost their infravision (no more glowing red eyes). There, it's a done deal - someone in charge put that in a book somewhere and you'll make me do a jig all the way to my grave. |
| Stigger04-19-07, 06:49 PM | Now that's not a bad idea there Markus... might borrow that one for a storyline I have running at the moment. :) |
| Kerym Ammath04-19-07, 07:15 PM | Somewhat tangentially, I have a question regarding the reformation of Cormanthyr. I was wondering whether anyone else was offended that the "crusade" and cleansing of Myth Drannor was carried out by Sun Elves? For me it was essentially a statement to throw out the last twenty years of Realmslore and just roll with. The Sun Elves started the Crown Wars, they essentially used the equivalent of an H-bomb in the dark disaster, they once again had a good old time mating with demons, brought about the fall of Eaerlann, assassinated the only heir to the Coronal of Cormanthyr, contributed heavily to the fall of Myth Drannor, kicked off the retreat, and now they get to come back and be the heroes? Sorry fine for the story of redemption, but much better the story of the Moon Elves ascendant. The Moon Elves deserved that piece of glory, afterall they have spent essentially the last 8000 years guarding against the excesses of the Sun Elves and kept the dream alive while the rest of elvenkind fled to Evermeet, and once again they get shown up. :( |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 07:21 PM | ::Shakes Fist:: -Damn those Moon Elves and their un-Elven ways! |
| Karsus the Mad04-19-07, 07:52 PM | The sun elves are the best of all elves unlike the artistically tone deaf elves of ilythiir... or something:P |
| MarkusTay6304-19-07, 08:23 PM | I think you forgot to take your pills there, KtM, I have no clue what you said :confused: Somewhat tangentially, I have a question regarding the reformation of Cormanthyr. I was wondering whether anyone else was offended that the "crusade" and cleansing of Myth Drannor was carried out by Sun Elves? For me it was essentially a statement to throw out the last twenty years of Realmslore and just roll with. The Sun Elves started the Crown Wars, they essentially used the equivalent of an H-bomb in the dark disaster, they once again had a good old time mating with demons, brought about the fall of Eaerlann, assassinated the only heir to the Coronal of Cormanthyr, contributed heavily to the fall of Myth Drannor, kicked off the retreat, and now they get to come back and be the heroes? Sorry fine for the story of redemption, but much better the story of the Moon Elves ascendant. The Moon Elves deserved that piece of glory, afterall they have spent essentially the last 8000 years guarding against the excesses of the Sun Elves and kept the dream alive while the rest of elvenkind fled to Evermeet, and once again they get shown up. :( :clap: :dancin: :cheer: :dancin: :cheer: :dancin: :clap: :plotting: Goot.... goot.... -Eh, I don't think so. It is specifically stated that the Magi of Illythir were not invited to help in the ritual, because of their agressive, "less-than-nice" ways. Ilythiir was, really, the major center of Dark Elves. So, that guarantees that if there were very few Dark Elven High Magi involved, if any.Yes, excellent point. Did you know that ALL of the northern cities, THE EVIL ONES, were destroyed during the sundering (E:IotE pg.173-174)? Those Elves that died in those cities were never avenged by the Illythiir, even though it was thousands of Illythiiri who died? Why? Because the Illythiir further south at that time had not begun to traffic with evil beings, and they probably thought that the northern slave-taking, sacrificing, all-around-evil northerners had it coming. You destroy a bunch of Gold Elf cities, for whatever reason, and there will be a reckoning (Jamdath, and we're only talking trees here, not cities). The Gold Elves feel it is THEIR right to punish those who they feel are in the wrong, but heaven forbid someone should call them to task. Who died and left them boss? The rest of the Elven nations stood by, with their backs turned, while the evil Aryvandaar Elves started slaughtering and taking-over (enslaving?) their brethren! They were like scared little rabbits, hiding from the big, bad wolf. But low, they earned the wrath of the Illythiir, who wanted nothing more then to avenge the Elves of Miyeritar. All of a sudden, most of the other Elves side with Aryvandaar, out of FEAR that they would be next. Of course they destroyed the other three southern Elvish nations, they posed a threat, and were trading partners with the Arvyandaar Elves. You want to beat an enemy, you destroy his supply lines. Its called warfare, and sometimes when you want to make an omelet you gotta break a few eggs. Civilians die in war, in the good guys do it, it's part of the package. Get over it. The only Elves I respect coming out of that war were the Keltormir, who had the good sense to stay out of it and move aside, so the two juggernaughts could destroy each other (not to mention that they protected and hid Elves fleeing Miyeritar, including Dark ones). Take evil and dark gods out of the equation, because in the long run good and evil are only a matter of perspective anyway - The Arvyandaar Elves STARTED the Crown wars, they tried taking over everyone else, one kingdom at a time. The Illythiir were responding to a threat as they saw it, to themselves and their way of life. If they had waited until Aryvandaar had finished swallowing up all of the smaller Elf nations it might have been too late. With the added resources the Arvyandaar would have been unstoppable! Think of what kind of place the world would be now, if the Illythiir had waited and the Aryvandaar took over everything. The Realms would be a much different place, with probably most of the human population enslaved or dead. The Dark Elves should be hailed as heroes, they saved the world. instead they were cursed, and for what? For stooping to tactics as brutal as their enemies? And once again, the Gold Elves came out smelling like roses, even thoughthey started the whole thing. It stinks... it stinks BIG TIME! |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 08:53 PM | I think you forgot to take your pills there, KtM, I have no clue what you said :confused: -S-U-N-E-L-V-E-S-A-R-E-E-V-I-L ;) -Though it may be loopy at times, his mind is a part of my own mind, of course. |
| MarkusTay6304-19-07, 08:58 PM | Good, another convert for the one true church - the holy tabernacle of our lady Elistraee. ;) :D |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 09:04 PM | Good, another convert for the one true church - the holy tabernacle of our lady Elistraee. -Them's fightin' words! :) |
| Prince Indirian04-19-07, 10:18 PM | -Eh, I don't think so. It is specifically stated that the Magi of Illythir were not invited to help in the ritual, because of their agressive, "less-than-nice" ways. Ilythiir was, really, the major center of Dark Elves. So, that guarantees that if there were very few Dark Elven High Magi involved, if any. Well according to CEoE, MIYERTAR was Quote from CEoE from timeline Miyeritar becomes the center of elven Art and´High Magic on Faerûn. Notice that...:P |
| Kerym Ammath04-19-07, 10:23 PM | In truth I would have no problem with the Sun Elves suffering equivalent punishment to the Drow, as presented they really deserved to get burned. Instead they say it is all the fault of the Vyshaanti, and here they are heads on a pike. Now can we forget about it? Great. Lets not forget the rivers of Moon and Wood Elf blood which undoubtedly flow to cleanse the remaining Sun Elves of their sin of association. Skip forward several years and we have House Dlardrageth who decides that they need demon blood in their family line, to you know improve themselves. Also references to some Vyshaanti still running around with similar bloodlines, and lets call them demonspawn. Lets call them demonspawn instead of just the latest instance of Sun Elf pride, and their uncontrollable desire for power. It is more palatable to the rest of the Sun Elves that way, because after all they are the best elves, the most elven of all elves, and anything that suggests otherwise needs to be ruthlessly excised from... I mean carefully and sensitively written so as not to offend the greater mass of those paragons of the elven way the Sun Elves. Anyway these "demonspawn" are imprisoned again at the usual price of Moon and Wood Elf blood. I think there is a pattern in this I could go on and on. Sure once in a while a good Sun Elf pops up and gets offed by bad Sun Elves, and then the usual price gets paid again. To put it simply the Drow just come off as the amateurs who commit acts of treachery and get caught. The Sun Elves well they seem very adept at wagging the dog. So of late I am tired of them taking center stage when in truth it is just another case of wagging the dog. So another question how long will Cormanthyr last this time. How long before some greedy Sun Elf noble offs the Coronal. It really is a matter of when, not if. |
| Prince Indirian04-19-07, 10:26 PM | LOL, GD will most defintely charge his wands and wade into the battle... |
| Kerym Ammath04-19-07, 10:38 PM | I am sure he will ;), but the history of the elves in the realms, not just the Crown Wars bear it out. In the end the Sun Elves bring ruin to themselves, and those around them with their desire for power in all its forms. It is as sure as the rising and setting of the Sun. They distrust everyone not like them, because they cannot even trust themselves. In the end they must all resist the siren call of power, and entirely too many succumb. In fact that would have been a great solution. Kick the drow underground, and doom them to a life of constant killing, and strip the Sun Elves of the ability to use magic, since they have such a penchant for abusing it. That might have been appropriate punishment. |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 11:11 PM | Well according to CEoE, MIYERTAR was Quote from CEoE from timeline Notice that...:P -Miyeritar didn't exist at the time of the Sundering. Come to think of it, neither did Ilythiir... -Ilythiir was founded circa -23,200 DR, Miyeritar was founded circa -18,800 DR, and the Sundering was cast circa -24,000 DR. -Houston, we have a problem... |
| Stigger04-20-07, 03:15 AM | You can almost hear the veins in GD's head popping out and his blood pressure rising as he reads this... |
| Karsus the Mad04-20-07, 04:55 AM | -Miyeritar didn't exist at the time of the Sundering. Come to think of it, neither did Ilythiir... -Ilythiir was founded circa -23,200 DR, Miyeritar was founded circa -18,800 DR, and the Sundering was cast circa -24,000 DR. -Houston, we have a problem... LEoF -18,000DR: Some Illythiiri houses discover Ghaunadaur.... -17,600DR: The Sundering occurs, and Evermeet is created with elven high magic. The spell reaches both back and forward in the mists of time. |
| Karsus the Mad04-20-07, 04:58 AM | -S-U-N-E-L-V-E-S-A-R-E-E-V-I-L ;) -Though it may be loopy at times, his mind is a part of my own mind, of course. I tried getting "Aryvandaar elves" in order to be more specific, but I was in the state of limbo between waking up and not having the morning pot of coffee and smoke. So I opted for sun elves, despite not being my opinion. |
| Kerym Ammath04-20-07, 07:38 AM | I am not saying Sun Elves are all evil, just that those who are seem to have a tendency for dragging everything down around them. Of course the argument that all Drow deserve to suffer in the Underdark for an eternity because of their ancestors mistakes does not sit too well with me, especially considering that the Sun Elves walked away essentially free of real consequences for their actions. In fact Siluvanede is a prime example of just how much the Sun Elves could get away with. No priests allowed, no temples, we don't want to wind up like the Vyshaanti (afterall we only narrowly avoided that bullet). The Sun Elves of Siluvanede essentially banished the Seldarine and yet no wrathful judgement. They did this of their own will because they feared the gods. Why fear them if you did nothing wrong? Well pretty obviously the Sun Elves were not quite so innocent as some would have us believe. The argument that the Vyshaanti were the bad guys and everyone else was ignorant of what was really going on holds no water. That others were just swept up in the Vyshaanti madness holds no water. We are talking about elves with lifespans 10 times longer than a humans. Saying they would go along with obvious madness for a human lifetime, sure no problem. That they blindly followed for THOUSANDS of years of war, that is where I start choking on the stench of hypocrisy. The Drow were actively corrupted by the gods, where as every devastating action of the Sun Elves was self motivated unless we use that silly Malkizid bit of info, in which case it becomes rapidly evident just how easy to corrupt Sun Elves are. It took several gods to corrupt the Drow, but the Sun Elves (of Aryvandaar in this case) only took one lonesome fallen solar. |
| Lord Karsus04-20-07, 10:23 AM | I tried getting "Aryvandaar elves" in order to be more specific, but I was in the state of limbo between waking up and not having the morning pot of coffee and smoke. So I opted for sun elves, despite not being my opinion. -I'm fully awake, and I'm having trouble thinking up of something that can make some sense, and hide Aryvandaar Elves. ;) |
| MarkusTay6304-20-07, 06:44 PM | I have decided to leave all future pro-dark Elf arguments to Kerym Ammath, my work here is done. :D |
| Stigger04-20-07, 08:17 PM | Probably not a bad idea, but I'm too stubborn to do anything quite like that... :D |
| Prince Indirian04-20-07, 08:21 PM | I have decided to leave all future pro-dark Elf arguments to Kerym Ammath, my work here is done. :D I'm feeling you , he is making some of us look like amateurs. He is now the official "dark-elf propaganda" minister...:D |
| BrennonGoldeye04-20-07, 08:42 PM | I'm feeling you , he is making some of us look like amateurs. He is now the official "dark-elf propaganda" minister...:D P'shaw, I doubt he would except the job offer. Smart cookie this one. :tiphat: |
| Kerym Ammath04-20-07, 08:56 PM | I am not pro dark elf (maybe that should have been all caps), I am pro equality. You know what is good for the goose should be good for the gander. All I am trying to say is that there are good and evil drow, just as there are good and evil Sun Elves. Why then does one deserve Old Testament style justice, and the other gets a revolving door? Just a question. I just want an answer that makes sense. (Outside of the editorial Drow were meant to evil because they were imported from Greyhawk. I know that.) My real question is before the Drow were stuck in the Mirror, Mirror episode were the Sun Elves supposed to fill that role? I see little difference between them except the color of the skin...and that I have a problem with. (Thanks for all the Teen Fiction R.A. :D ) |
| Prince Indirian04-20-07, 09:05 PM | P'shaw, I doubt he would except the job offer. Smart cookie this one. :tiphat: Wait did you just type "for sure". I also I thought the slang version was "fa shaw" (also known as "fo shizzle", yes we know who Snoop is in Europe, we have MTV as well)... |
| Kerym Ammath04-20-07, 09:07 PM | Anyone with secret compartments in their limo for Chiba... well you know. |
| Lord Karsus04-20-07, 09:36 PM | Wait did you just type "for sure". I also I thought the slang version was "fa shaw" (also known as "fo shizzle", yes we know who Snoop is in Europe, we have MTV as well)... -Doesn't he get arrested on every other trip to [Insert Western European State Here]? |
| BrennonGoldeye04-20-07, 10:07 PM | Wait did you just type "for sure". I also I thought the slang version was "fa shaw" (also known as "fo shizzle", yes we know who Snoop is in Europe, we have MTV as well)... No no no. No offence intended to Calvin, talented guy him. Different word. Just go Puh, and then say shaw. Sorry, old regional version of saying 'I doubt it' or possibly 'As if'.:) |
| Stigger04-21-07, 01:49 AM | The Snoop thing never would have occurred to me... must be an age thing. |
| Karsus the Mad04-21-07, 06:42 AM | The Snoop thing never would have occurred to me... must be an age thing. We're geezered:blink: |
| Prince Indirian04-21-07, 07:30 AM | -Doesn't he get arrested on every other trip to [Insert Western European State Here]? Yes he does, I think the Cops rountinely take him in (when he si there) cause he's always high on something. I think somebody needs to tell him that AMSTERDAM is merely a city in the SMALL EUROPEAN NATION known as the Netherlands...the rest of us are little more conservative, minus the Danish. Oh and for all danish and netherlandish folks no hate intended we love ya, though we just don't get all the hyper liberalness concerning "shrubs" of various kinds (americans correct me here on the use of "shrubs") No no no. No offence intended to Calvin, talented guy him. Different word. Just go Puh, and then say shaw. Sorry, old regional version of saying 'I doubt it' or possibly 'As if'.:) All right, was just a little perplexed there for minute. Calvin is Snoops (real) name right (I think I might have heard him refered a also the way you sentence is "compiled" implies that it snoop you are talking wgen you say Calvin) ? American (I will not call it English) is much more complex than people think...and MTV seriously doesn't help in that matter. The Snoop thing never would have occurred to me... must be an age thing. You know, I used the expression "knocking boots" concerning Correllons relationship with Araushnee...I was apperently showing my age. The proper expression was "hittin' that"..;) We're geezered:blink: Times are changing quickly, you parents must have feelt similiar when you using various expressions...but I know how you feel, even though I'm quite young. |
| Stigger04-21-07, 08:48 AM | I've kinda been looking forward to being geezered... then I can start using phrases like: "Back in my day..." "You damned kids these days..." "Bunch of spoiled punks, when we used to do it..." etcetera and so forth... So been looking forward to this... :D And I do recall that 'knocking boots' expression... hit when I was in high school as I remember it. Hated it then, I see time hasn't improved it much... then again, I've never been much into hip hop culture, preferring the Gothic/Industrial subculture over anything else. :tongue: |
| GothicDan04-21-07, 05:37 PM | I really don't care any more (for now). Suffice it to say: sometimes I can be quite apathetic, aggressive, and even openly hostile when people do not interpret things which (I feel) are plainly spelled out. Maybe it's too much math and science? I don't know. If people want to continue ignoring the blatant, spelled-out text where it states that the ritual that cast down ALL DARK ELVES WAS AN ACCIDENT, then go right ahead. It does NOT state that ANY of the Seldarine did this on purpose, or "allowed" it to happen. Think what you guys want... I'll disagree and try not to send Astral projections to slice your minds apart at night. ;) |
| MarkusTay6304-21-07, 05:46 PM | It does have it's moments. I'm particularly fond of shaking my fist at the kids who cut-across my corner property - "You kids get off my gawdamn lawn!" I also like to tell my kids I had to walk 37 miles to school in a blizzard, even though the school was actually at the end of my street (about 12 houses) and I STILL took a bus because of my Asthma. :D Geezerhood is fun because you get to bore everyone with your stories of the 'olde days'. "tell us what record-players were like daddy". :cool: |
| Kerym Ammath04-21-07, 06:03 PM | You are quite correct GD when you say that it had unintended effects, and no one knows exactly why all dark elves were affected. This is what it says essentially on p.55-56 of LEoF. On the other hand the chronology on p.54 specifically states with no ambiguity that the Seldarine responded to the magic of the elves by smiting the Illithyrii. Either way you look at it the Seldarine did have a hand, though I am sure an outside force made it more far reaching than intended. This does not however answer why the Sun Elves were not punished in any way, and were essentially allowed after the Fifth Crown War to essentially go right back to starting the whole cycle all over again. |
| GothicDan04-21-07, 06:28 PM | They responded by GRANTING the magic. The use of all Elven High Magic must be approved by the gods (Corellon, specifically), but they do not then automatically control/grant how each Ritual is used, much like Mystra does not monitor the spells of every wizard on Faerun. She only cares about the integrity of the Weave overall. Why weren't they punished? Because, despite whatever opinions various posters have here, it's a canon fact, currently, that the vast majority of Sun Elves are Good and Neutral, and that they as a whole did not fall into inequity. The Vyshaanti were punished - by the other Elves. Just like the other Elves punished the Ilythiiri. The Seldarine granted them the power to do as they would. Why would the Sun Elves punish themselves? The majority of Elven High Magi have always been Sun Elves as far as we know. (EDIT: But they did not do so EXCLUSIVELY, wihch means that the other major Elven nations at the time obviously agreed and aided in the casting.) It wasn't the Seldarine that did the punishing, so much as they gave them the power necessary - perhaps as a transcendental metaphor of Corellon banishing Araushnee/Lolth. |
| Kerym Ammath04-21-07, 06:42 PM | Essentially it comes down to "It's good to be the king!". |
| GothicDan04-21-07, 06:46 PM | Was it anything ever more, really? I said, on multiple occasions, that the Crown Wars came down to Elven culture, not necessarily alignment. While I stand by my assertion that the majority of Sun Elves are and were Good and Neutral (backed by current facts, statistics, and opinions of certain authors), and that the Ilythiiiri were as a whole an Evil society - that's not what started or stopped the Crown Wars, or regulated what High Magic was used by whom. It was Elven culture - deviating from it and suffering the consequences. I mean, come on. I'm Lawful Neutral. Does it really look like I care whether ANYONE is particularly 'Good' or not? I just don't like the Evil ones. That's how the real world works too, as far as military affairs go. Evil and Good are completely subjective from one civilization to the next, from one era to the next; they're linked to the culture as if changes or stays the same. |
| Lord Karsus04-21-07, 08:06 PM | I've kinda been looking forward to being geezered... then I can start using phrases like: "Back in my day..." "You damned kids these days..." "Bunch of spoiled punks, when we used to do it..." etcetera and so forth... So been looking forward to this... :D -I'm only...20? (I forget sometimes! ;) ), and I use said phrases all the time! :D |
| Karsus the Mad04-21-07, 08:19 PM | -I'm only...20? (I forget sometimes! ;) ), and I use said phrases all the time! :D You're only...20?!?!?! You've been stealing my vitality!:mad: You forget your age to?:P Heh...good to know I'm not the only one with memory problems... |
| Prince Indirian04-21-07, 08:19 PM | This does not however answer why the Sun Elves were not punished in any way, and were essentially allowed after the Fifth Crown War to essentially go right back to starting the whole cycle all over again. The assasinated a large amoung of High MAges and Clerics, to prevent being "smitten" just as the Illithyr. If there are no elves to conduct the Ritual how are they to be punished "Descent" style... Why would the Sun Elves punish themselves? The majority of Elven High Magi have always been Sun Elves as far as we know. (EDIT: But they did not do so EXCLUSIVELY, wihch means that the other major Elven nations at the time obviously agreed and aided in the casting.) It wasn't the Seldarine that did the punishing, so much as they gave them the power necessary - perhaps as a transcendental metaphor of Corellon banishing Araushnee/Lolth. Well, I don't agree whether or not Majority of elves HM have been Sun Elves (actually I don't agree at all, but the burden of proof is on you), but notice that as far as we know Aryvandaar was not part of the Ritual that punished the Dark Elves. Also that there were Sun elves in other nations and they helped "punish" the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar in the end. Which is also proof that not all sun elves were evil, though those of Aryvandaar were darn close...you can't "support" a royalty so evil and still be remotely good...or even neutral. |
| Lord Karsus04-21-07, 08:43 PM | You're only...20?!?!?! You've been stealing my vitality!:mad: -Well, the mortal entity that this aspect is currently inhabiting is twenty, anyway. You forget your age to?:P Heh...good to know I'm not the only one with memory problems... -Odd thing is, I have a very good memory. I think I can attribute it all to some deep-rooted psychological issues that I like to call "Holden Caulfield Syndrome", where I do grow up and everything, but I refuse to acknowledge it (for the most part), and like to consider myself still a kid. I don't know... |
| GothicDan04-21-07, 08:45 PM | you can't "support" a royalty so evil and still be remotely good...or even neutral. Well, that's not how Elaine saw it, and not how I saw it, either, especially if the Vyshaanti played their cards right. I'll just throw out a few names like Stalin, Hitler, Yamomoto, and Mussolini for fun, though. And in this case, WWII isn't a bad (if touchy) analogy, since it was largely started with the Nazi party claiming a form of ownership over part of Poland (as the Vyshaanti did with Miyeritar), and eventually, used aggressive force to try to take it (as Aryvandaar did), and then due to entangling alliances, things just sort of went nuts (as the Crown Wars did). Also, remember that this is a fantasy world. No only that, it's also the ANCIENT PAST of a fantasy world. Rome was largely founded mythologically on the rape of a foreign group of innocent women, and they deified their founder, who also murdered his brother. |
| Kerym Ammath04-21-07, 08:57 PM | GD that argument ventures entirely too close to the "We were just following orders" excuse or "We were afraid for our own lives" neither excuses willful compliance with acts of terror. Neither does willfully ignoring what was happening absolve any of them of being responsible. Finally the actions of the few who did what was right do not absolve those who stood by, or followed. Once again in the instance of Aryvandaar it was a responsibility for acts of terror stretching over THOUSANDS of years, the people knew and followed, and obeyed, even though it was clearly wrong. In my book that makes them at the very least not good, and neutral at best. |
| MarkusTay6304-21-07, 11:56 PM | Also, remember that this is a fantasy world. No only that, it's also the ANCIENT PAST of a fantasy world. Rome was largely founded mythologically on the rape of a foreign group of innocent women, and they deified their founder, who also murdered his brother.The rape of the Sabine women. :D And yes, it is easy to see how a race that practically deified a backstabbing muderer (fratricide!) as their founder has given birth to both organized crime and the Roman Catholic Church. :P This is waaay off topic GD, but have you ever noticed some of the similarities between early Hebrew myths and Roman folklore? As a theologian as well as an amateur historian, I find the parallels facinating. I always wanted to write a book on the subject, but then something really good comes on the TV... :rolleyes: |
| GothicDan04-22-07, 03:13 AM | GD that argument ventures entirely too close to the "We were just following orders" excuse or "We were afraid for our own lives" neither excuses willful compliance with acts of terror. Neither does willfully ignoring what was happening absolve any of them of being responsible. Finally the actions of the few who did what was right do not absolve those who stood by, or followed. Once again in the instance of Aryvandaar it was a responsibility for acts of terror stretching over THOUSANDS of years, the people knew and followed, and obeyed, even though it was clearly wrong. In my book that makes them at the very least not good, and neutral at best. Well, it's unfortunate that you considered generations of the entire populaces of Japan, Germany, Italy, and Russia all Evil, or Neutral at best. |
| GothicDan04-22-07, 03:14 AM | but the burden of proof is on you) Races of Faerun states as much. |
| Kerym Ammath04-22-07, 07:01 AM | GD for the most part I am referring to Germany and Japan. There is a reason that the post war guilt lasted for 50+ years. That is roughly 5x the length of the period in question. I have seen no evidence of anything similar from the Sun Elves. Lastly I am referring to evil as it applies to the alignment system. By that system yes their actions are undoubtedly evil, their inaction is evil. In the really real world I restrict my opinions to ethics and leave morality to those who believe. |
| Stigger04-22-07, 08:46 AM | The WW2 arguement is rather disingenuous in the first place since it completely ignores the factors that led up to the war. The Treaty of Versailles started that war before Hitler ever even saw a smidgen of power. It was inevitable once that treaty was forced down Germany's throat. Not even going to go into the whole issue of Japan... but they didn't lack causus belli for their attacks on the US. The whole China thing was pretty damned evil though... personally I have no problem calling segments of entire generations evil though. I'd say the same thing in regards to more modern conflcts as well, but that's neither here nor there. However, my point is that we have a vast amount of facts surrounding WW2 and its circumstance, miles of documentation and other forms of concrete evidence. We have what exactly on the Crown Wars? A handful of paragraphs over probably not more than a half-dozen written works, if that much? So while it doesn't exactly give us concrete proof of anything, it does pretty strongly point to Gold Elf villainy and attempts to avoid strong punishment with yet more evil... we can say that the rest of the written material on them points towards that not being true given their current state, but that only tells us about their present, not how they were 18,000 years or more ago. A whole lot can happen in that time, considering you can have complete societal change in just 5 generations (at least where humans are concerned, though extending that to elves makes sense to me), and 18,000 years is a lot of generations, even for an elf. Unless one subscribes to the idea that elves are essentially static creatures on a culture/society level, which doesn't quite fit with what I know of them. Add in to that the 'banality of evil' factor that tends to set in after long periods of warfare and strife... and the Crown Wars start making more sense, and kinda supports the idea of Gold Elf evil and villainy. |
| GothicDan04-22-07, 11:21 AM | GD for the most part I am referring to Germany and Japan. There is a reason that the post war guilt lasted for 50+ years. That is roughly 5x the length of the period in question. I have seen no evidence of anything similar from the Sun Elves. That's because of a few reasons. A) The Crown Wars ended, what, 15,000 years ago? There are no Sun Elves alive who have lived through the Crown Wars, where 50+ years is still time for at least one generation of WW II to have lived. B) Gold Elves aren't the type to wear their emotions on their arms, regardless of what they are. They're not Emo-Elves. ;) C) Where exactly WOULD we see their guilt? There's been no products or novels in which it would make a lick of topicality or sense to go into the Sun Elves' guilt over the whole thing. D) Again, Aryvandaar was not the only Sun Elven Realm by far. Your assertion would make it seem like I should feel guilty for what my great grandfather did in fighting on Germany's side in WW II. I don't feel guilty, and I'm sure as heck not going to apologize for him. Lastly I am referring to evil as it applies to the alignment system. By that system yes their actions are undoubtedly evil, their inaction is evil. In the really real world I restrict my opinions to ethics and leave morality to those who believe. I do not think their actions are evil according to the alignment system. Simple as that, really. |
| GothicDan04-22-07, 11:24 AM | You know what this whole discussion has really gotten me wanting? A novel series called "The Crown Wars," written by one or more of the following: Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and Steven Schend. A guy can dream, can't he? |
| Stigger04-22-07, 11:25 AM | Would be nice... not holding my breath for it, but it would make for a fascinating read. |
| Kerym Ammath04-22-07, 12:01 PM | That would be incredibly cool, though I second the doubt it could happen. |
| Prince Indirian04-22-07, 01:06 PM | Races of Faerun states as much. It'also says today...not in the past. That's a huge difference...as you might know HM was far more powerful in the past then in the present, just an example of who things have greatly changed Quote from RoF, that supposeddly claims this... "The art of High macig is still practied on Evermeet by the Sun Elves, who in this age and time compromise almost all elven High Mages." Sorry, GD but RoF doesn't support you there... |
| Prince Indirian04-22-07, 01:09 PM | You know what this whole discussion has really gotten me wanting? A novel series called "The Crown Wars," written by one or more of the following: Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and Steven Schend. A guy can dream, can't he? A petition my brother...:D |
| MarkusTay6304-22-07, 02:57 PM | That has to be the single bestest (;) ) idea you ever had, Dan! That would be like the ULTIMATE trilogy, with each of them doing one book. I'm like, getting all hot and bothered just imagining it! :drool: Of course, they'd probably hand the whole project over to R.A.S., and Driizt would go back in time and take on the entire Vyshanti Empire, and then chase the Ilythiiri underground just as an afterthought. He's like... Chuck Norris or something. :P |
| Stigger04-22-07, 04:00 PM | Somehow I doubt a simple Trilogy could capture the Crown Wars... better of a pentalogy (I think that's the word anyway, not sure, just woke up), one book for each War, at the least. |
| theartistformerlyknownas04-22-07, 04:02 PM | Chances are the trilogy would be written by Richard Baker, in which case Dan would die of grief. Which is why Dan and George should write the series. It could be their metaphorical love-baby! |
| MarkusTay6304-22-07, 05:54 PM | Chances are the trilogy would be written by Richard Baker, in which case Dan would die of grief. Which is why Dan and George should write the series. It could be their metaphorical love-baby!Arrrgh! No... We need 'neutral' parties, not people with pre-convictions! Either that, or let Dan write one version of the Crown wars, and ME the other. We will stick to facts as presented in the source material, but each will be from a different veiwpoint. I don't think WotC/TSR has EVER tried something like that before, it would probably prove rather 'interesting'. :P You know, like those TV shows that have different people's flashbacks of the same event, and they all remember it differently? I love those! :D |
| Lord Karsus04-22-07, 06:59 PM | -No, no, and no. -Although I find the Crown Wars facinating, no series. Not even by Schend, Elaine and Ed. The Crown Wars, as was stated many times by numerous people, happened extremely long ago. I, for one, would rather the idea that we (DMs, PCs, afficionados, and so on) don't know too many concrete facts. I would rather that we don't know the full scoope. It's ancient history that only the most learned of Elves know somewhat about- not all about. I'd rather that we know what said learned Elves know- a decent picture, but with blurry details. |
| Stigger04-23-07, 01:50 AM | That would be good too... maybe from the perspective of a learned sage instructing the little elflings about their racial histories, set in the modern day, or perhaps setting it at the height of Myth Drannor or something. You could even incorporate Markus' idea and have it told from the perspective of each of the various subraces... |
| Zireael04-23-07, 07:03 AM | I agree with LK, I think it should remain a history cloaked in mysteries and myths. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-23-07, 08:22 PM | You know what this whole discussion has really gotten me wanting? A novel series called "The Crown Wars," written by one or more of the following: Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and Steven Schend. A guy can dream, can't he? I recently aquired some very high quality vellum. Because of it's clo:shifty: ....pre-owned status it won't age nearly as quickly and holds ink better, yeah pre-owned. Anyway, I would donate it willingly as to see anything close to such a series by said writers.:) I just read Children of Hurin, so I have kind of a history jones going full speed.:D |
| GothicDan04-24-07, 03:39 AM | I am not looking for a series to basically go "HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE CROWN WARS!" but rather just a single, possibly flawed aspect of it, a single storyline carried out. But, meh. As to Sun Elven High Magi... The majority of the most powerful and legendary High Magi of the past in the sourcebooks have been Sun Elves: Durothil, Runemaster, that uber-innovative Sun Elf that LK likes, the Srinshee originally, Ulair the Silent, and so on. The fact that RoF states that Sun Elves have entire libraries of magical spells dating back thousands of years, coupled with their blatant arcane culture, also adds to the fact that they've always sought to establish a powerful presence among the arcane-elite of the Tel'Quessir (the High Magi). In any event, my point remains poignant: a great number of Sun Elves (whether the majority or otherwise) made up the number of High Magi during the Crown Wars, and specifically, aided in casting the ritual that banished the Drow. Without their power (or that of the Drow), that of the Moon Elven High Magi, and the scant few of other subraces, would not have been enough to perform another such powerful ritual of High Magic. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 04:15 AM | Though you could also interpret that as if the Gold Elves shared that knowledge with the rest of their elven brethern, the rest of the Elven subraces would be better represented, but instead they hoard their knowledge and keep the power for themselves to remain unchallenged in matters arcane, and with that power, they shape Elven magic and its effects on the Tel'Quessir to suit their preferences and agenda. My point there is that there's always two ways to look at anything, at least... |
| GothicDan04-24-07, 08:21 AM | What point of mine are you replying to exactly, Stigger? I wasn't lauding the Sun Elves, merely stating their culture in regards to arcane tradition. They had the magic to begin with as long ago as we have references to the Tel'Quessir on Faerun (Durothil being the first great mage to rise that we know of specifically), and we have countless examples of Sun Elven High Mage NPCs in novels and sourcebooks spanning thousands of years. I'm not saying whether or not that's a good or a bad thing, or how it happened, merely that it's a fact, and thus would reflect such massive High Magic Rituals being cast that requires dozens or hundreds of potent casters. |
| Philalexandros04-24-07, 08:53 AM | I am not pro dark elf (maybe that should have been all caps), I am pro equality. ... All I am trying to say is that there are good and evil drow, just as there are good and evil Sun Elves. Why then does one deserve Old Testament style justice, and the other gets a revolving door? Just a question. I just want an answer that makes sense. How about this? It's a stated fact that only 15% or so of the Drow are non-evil (Drow of the Underdark, 2E). By contrast, evil Sun Elves are routinely described as the exception--the antagonists whose evil comes as a shock to others precisely because the majority of them impart a legacy of nobility and decency to their lineage. Sun Elves get a bad rap because Elfshadow, Evermeet, and the Myth Drannor sagas leant on that concept. Open the Last Mythal Trilogy, though, and Sun Elf stalwart champions of good heart are present once more. Using the WWII example, I wanted to also address the culpability of Aryvandaar's people. Nazi Germany had experienced Krystalnacht (sp?), the disenfranchisement of Jews, homosexuals, political dissidents (or enemies), Gypsies, etc. The outright kidnapping of unwanted individuals for "labor camps" was little secret. By contrast, the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar believed that their leaders were taking them on a lawful war to take what was rightfully theirs. I'll leave it up to the sages of humanity on these boards to determine if, in an age without informational capabilities such as our own, it is possible for otherwise decent people to cheerfully fall in line and go fight their fellow man for a "good" cause. Where the Dark Disaster is concerned, I repeat the obvious: the average Aryvandaari neither knew of its true origin. And why should they suspect their own people of commiting such an act? No elf of Aryvandaar had any reason to suspect his own rulers were trafficking with infernal powers. On the other hand, he would have known that, long before the Dark Disaster, the use of demon-magic and undead minions was prevalent among his enemies--who, by the way, had razed no less than two entire nations from the face of the earth already. Given this track record, is there any reason to seriously wonder how a sun elf could accept his rulers' propaganda--that dark elf magic had actually been responsible? |
| Lord Karsus04-24-07, 08:59 AM | I am not looking for a series to basically go "HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE CROWN WARS!" but rather just a single, possibly flawed aspect of it, a single storyline carried out. But, meh. -I think a better idea might be a Realms of the Crown Wars Anthology, or something to that effect. |
| Prince Indirian04-24-07, 04:00 PM | As to Sun Elven High Magi... The majority of the most powerful and legendary High Magi of the past in the sourcebooks have been Sun Elves: Durothil, Runemaster, that uber-innovative Sun Elf that LK likes, the Srinshee originally, Ulair the Silent, and so on. The fact that RoF states that Sun Elves have entire libraries of magical spells dating back thousands of years, coupled with their blatant arcane culture, also adds to the fact that they've always sought to establish a powerful presence among the arcane-elite of the Tel'Quessir (the High Magi). The Quote I gave says it all...it didn't support you even though you tried twinsting it:P . Fact is just because we haven't heard about others don't mean they don't exist. I agree though on the exellence of sun elves mages, they are historically and mechanically awesome (in my opinion Sun Elves and humans make the best Mages), bordering on pure munchkinism. Also I doubt sun elves are the only ones with a arcane culture and lots of history. ... Also note that the Center of HM and art during it's pinnacle was a green/dark elven nation..not the almost pure Sun Elven nation that was Aryvandaar or Illithyr with it's vile magic. Quote from RoF, that supposeddly claims this... "The art of High magic is still practied on Evermeet by the Sun Elves, who in this age and time compromise almost all elven High Mages." It says "who in this age" not in all ages or in the past. Which is what this is about, eh. In any event, my point remains poignant: a great number of Sun Elves (whether the majority or otherwise) made up the number of High Magi during the Crown Wars, and specifically, aided in casting the ritual that banished the Drow. Without their power (or that of the Drow), that of the Moon Elven High Magi, and the scant few of other subraces, would not have been enough to perform another such powerful ritual of High Magic. Isn't this sherr speculation at best ? There are no sourcebooks that claim this. I don't remember ever reading anything close to it |
| MarkusTay6304-24-07, 04:19 PM | -I think a better idea might be a Realms of the Crown Wars Anthology, or something to that effect.My thoughts EXACTLY, and I was going to suggest such when I read your post. If it's a success (which I'm sure it would be), then it could have a couple of sequels as well. I'm sure there are 10,000 stories dating from this era, all waiting to be told. And no, Dan, I'm not talking from a skewed perspective THIS time, but rather seperate stories about INDIVIDUALS. In some Dark Elves would be monsters, but in others the Gold Elves could be portrayed thusly. All the races would have their heroes and villains, and it would be a VERY fair way to portray this period. The actual wars could still be left just as vague, since this volume would be about the people effected. Considering some of the loose ends that could use some explaining at the end of Blackstaff, I would certainly LOVE to see a piece by Mr. Schend detailing the 'other end' of that story. Imagine a story of a mother trying to save her children during the 'Dark Disaster', or another doing the same in the burning forests of Syòrpiir. The story of two mothers... and how chance threw them together. A volume like this has TONS of potential, and if some of the stories could be linked, like the two I mentioned above, all the better. Given the long-lives of the Elves, a young character in one story could appear as an elderly mentor in another. I would also GREATLY enjoy getting some sort of info about the Battle of God's Theatre. I hinted in my Dark Elf piece (for the netbook) that the Illythiiri 'may' have somehow maneuvered the Orcs onto the field that day. See Dan? 70.000 Elves died that day, and I'm trying to pin it on the Dark Elves. Sometimes I can play for both teams.... Don't take that the wrong way... and stop lookin' at me funny.... :P |
| Stigger04-24-07, 04:41 PM | What point of mine are you replying to exactly, Stigger? I wasn't lauding the Sun Elves, merely stating their culture in regards to arcane tradition. They had the magic to begin with as long ago as we have references to the Tel'Quessir on Faerun (Durothil being the first great mage to rise that we know of specifically), and we have countless examples of Sun Elven High Mage NPCs in novels and sourcebooks spanning thousands of years. I'm not saying whether or not that's a good or a bad thing, or how it happened, merely that it's a fact, and thus would reflect such massive High Magic Rituals being cast that requires dozens or hundreds of potent casters. C'mon Dan, surely you've figured out by now that sometimes I just like poking you with a stick, just for fun. ;) And that I won't hesitate to put a negative spin on gold elves whenever the opportunity presents itself... :tongue: |
| BrennonGoldeye04-24-07, 04:57 PM | -I think a better idea might be a Realms of the Crown Wars Anthology, or something to that effect. My thoughts EXACTLY, and I was going to suggest such when I read your post. If it's a success (which I'm sure it would be), then it could have a couple of sequels as well. I'm sure there are 10,000 stories dating from this era, all waiting to be told. And no, Dan, I'm not talking from a skewed perspective THIS time, but rather seperate stories about INDIVIDUALS. In some Dark Elves would be monsters, but in others the Gold Elves could be portrayed thusly. All the races would have their heroes and villains, and it would be a VERY fair way to portray this period. The actual wars could still be left just as vague, since this volume would be about the people effected. Considering some of the loose ends that could use some explaing at the end of Blackstaff, I would certainly LOVE to see a piece by Mr. Schend detailing the 'other end' of that story. Imagine a story of a mother trying to save her children during the 'Dark Disaster', or another doing the same in the burning forests of Syòrpiir. The story of two mothers... and how chance threw them together. A volume like this has TONS of potential, and if some of the stories could be linked, like the two I mentioned above, all the better. Given the long-lives of the Elves, a young character in one story could appear as an elderly mentor in another. I would also GREATLY enjoy getting some sort of info about the Battle of God's Theatre. I hinted in my Dark Elf piece (for the netbook) that the Illythiiri 'may' have somehow maneuvered the Orcs onto the field that day. See Dan? 70.000 Elves died that day, and I'm trying to pin it on the Dark Elves. Sometimes I can play for both teams.... Don't take that the wrong way... and stop lookin' at me funny.... :P Hey, both excellent ideas and we can still use LLKN's ..:shifty:.. the vellum. IMO the reason the relatively low number of evil or even just overly lawful among them get so much attention is because of how much they contrast with the sub-race as a whole. Oh, and Markus, ;) . C'mon Dan, surely you've figured out by now that sometimes I just like poking you with a stick, just for fun. ;) And that won't hesitate to put a negative spin on gold elves whenever the opportunity presents itself... :tongue: Same here. You can't blame us, if you poke Dan just right he will make that "whoo-whoo" sound and giggle, it's sooo cute. :ayyyy!: |
| MarkusTay6304-24-07, 05:08 PM | That, and especially in light of my final comment above, is a very DISTURBING picture. :uh-huh: |
| Stigger04-24-07, 05:14 PM | How about this? It's a stated fact that only 15% or so of the Drow are non-evil (Drow of the Underdark, 2E). By contrast, evil Sun Elves are routinely described as the exception--the antagonists whose evil comes as a shock to others precisely because the majority of them impart a legacy of nobility and decency to their lineage. Sun Elves get a bad rap because Elfshadow, Evermeet, and the Myth Drannor sagas leant on that concept. Open the Last Mythal Trilogy, though, and Sun Elf stalwart champions of good heart are present once more. 15% is a fairly significant number really... but that's neither here nor there. As to the exceptional qualities of Sun Elves, those qualities also include a sense of racial, and even subracial supremacy and a firm belief that they are the guardians of the 'true ways' of elvenkind. If that's not an open door to corruption, I'm not sure what is. When they go bad, they go bad all the way, none of this minor little petty evil for them... Though I'd also raise the notion that one of the reasons so many of their Big High Magic Rituals go so very awry is that their hearts and intentions aren't as pure as they'd like to believe. Makes sense to me anyway... Using the WWII example, I wanted to also address the culpability of Aryvandaar's people. Nazi Germany had experienced Krystalnacht (sp?), the disenfranchisement of Jews, homosexuals, political dissidents (or enemies), Gypsies, etc. The outright kidnapping of unwanted individuals for "labor camps" was little secret. By contrast, the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar believed that their leaders were taking them on a lawful war to take what was rightfully theirs. I'll leave it up to the sages of humanity on these boards to determine if, in an age without informational capabilities such as our own, it is possible for otherwise decent people to cheerfully fall in line and go fight their fellow man for a "good" cause. Where the Dark Disaster is concerned, I repeat the obvious: the average Aryvandaari neither knew of its true origin. And why should they suspect their own people of commiting such an act? No elf of Aryvandaar had any reason to suspect his own rulers were trafficking with infernal powers. On the other hand, he would have known that, long before the Dark Disaster, the use of demon-magic and undead minions was prevalent among his enemies--who, by the way, had razed no less than two entire nations from the face of the earth already. Given this track record, is there any reason to seriously wonder how a sun elf could accept his rulers' propaganda--that dark elf magic had actually been responsible? I find the arguement a little hard to swallow there... first off, the preconditions in Germany at the time were ones of utter economic disaster, with many people living a subsistance lifestyle at best. They were demoralized, disenfranchised from the rest of the world, and forced to accept blame for something they really had little to do with. Morality and decency are luxuries, luxuries a person scraping to survive has little time for. Hitler came along and pulled them out of an economic tailspin and was essentially their savior. Had he not engaged in the whole war of conquest and attempted genocide thing, he'd probably be remembered as one of the greatest leaders of modern history. Unfortunately for Germany, he also happened to be a psychotic little midget, so that epithet goes out the window. As to semi-modern mass communications having an impact... of course it did, though not really in the way I think you're suggesting. With a fellow like Himmler about, spinning the information that society as a whole received, while taking out bits that didn't conform to the Reichs needs and wants, the society could moulded in a way that was beneficial to the Nazi parties needs. They controlled the flow of information in a very direct way, in a way the Vyshaans could only dream of. Add into that mixture the small detail that the fellow who essentially brought his nation salvation was telling them that those undesireables were the root cause of all their problems, and what possible reason would they have not to believe him? He (Hitler) managed to fix their economy, rebuilt their military, and brought them prestige once more... of course he could see what was really behind their problems, as he was the one who fixed those problems. Why wouldn't they believe him would be a better question. The Vyshaan however were operating from a period of (relatively) rapid success and expansion. Life was good for Aryvandaar, they were at the height of their civilization and no one could resist their might. That's an extraordinarily different set of circumstances compared to Nazi Germany, so the comparison just does not work. I don't dispute that they would never have questioned the 'fact' that they had nothing to do with the Dark Disaster however. Though I doubt that they would have blamed the Illythirii for it either, since the Vyshaans went out of their way, as I recall, to pin that on the High Mages of Miyeritar, who they spent the months running up to the Dark Disaster assassinating. The big problem I have with the Aryvandaarans in terms of culpability of their populace happened in -9900 DR, when they start persecuting other High Mages and powerful clerics... it apparently takes the people some 700 to 900 years to figure out that maybe their rulers are up to no good at that point... sorry, but I don't think even elves work that slowly. |
| Fabius Maximus04-24-07, 07:40 PM | Just a sidenote: Hitler didn't fix anything. The only reason for his initial success after gaining power was the war industry and massive indebtment. Without that, he would have vanished rather rapidly. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-24-07, 07:59 PM | Just a sidenote: Hitler didn't fix anything. The only reason for his initial success after gaining power was the war industry and massive indebtment. Without that, he would have vanished rather rapidly. True, true and true. Wise words people. That, and especially in light of my final comment above, is a very DISTURBING picture. :uh-huh: As to Dan, I swear I meant in a "poke in the ribs" sort of way. :) |
| Lord Karsus04-25-07, 12:07 AM | It says "who in this age" not in all ages or in the past. Which is what this is about, eh. -Historically, Sun Elves, due to their greater fascination with magic, and their inherent prowess at it (+2 INT), have always been among the most numerous of the Selu'Taar. Imagine a story of a mother trying to save her children during the 'Dark Disaster', or another doing the same in the burning forests of Syòrpiir. The story of two mothers... and how chance threw them together. -That is some good stuff right there... Hey, both excellent ideas and we can still use LLKN's ..:shifty:.. the vellum. -Bren, what ever became of LLKN? I haven't seen him around for a while. Did you have anything to do with that? ;) Just a sidenote: Hitler didn't fix anything. The only reason for his initial success after gaining power was the war industry and massive indebtment. Without that, he would have vanished rather rapidly. -There were a lot of factors that contributed to Hitler's rise to power, and his dictatorship. |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 12:27 AM | 15% is a fairly significant number really... but that's neither here nor there. As to the exceptional qualities of Sun Elves, those qualities also include a sense of racial, and even subracial supremacy and a firm belief that they are the guardians of the 'true ways' of elvenkind. If that's not an open door to corruption, I'm not sure what is. When they go bad, they go bad all the way, none of this minor little petty evil for them... I'd argue that the record doesn't agree with you, though. It's quite obvious that, very often, Sun Elf villains don't even *know* they are the villains. Case in point? All the Sun Elf nobles who tried to draw Moonblades. Another case? Kymil Nimesin, imprisoned by the Harpers, and STUNNED when Ghaunadaur and Lolth's appearance before him provided indisputable evidence that he was, in fact, both wrong and evil. Sun Elves, for the most part, seem to do wrong with good intentions. Drow seem to revel in their cruelty, and base their laws accordingly. I find the arguement a little hard to swallow there... first off, the preconditions in Germany at the time were ones of utter economic disaster, with many people living a subsistance lifestyle at best. ... None of which addresses the differences I outlined. In no way did the Vyshaan demonstrate any of the "warning signs" Hitler did. There was no persecution of minorities or effort to enslave individuals. Centuries passed by with the governments doing nothing but talking. When war broke out, there were no atrocities or anything of the sort to tip off the citizenry. As to semi-modern mass communications having an impact... of course it did, though not really in the way I think you're suggesting. You misunderstood my point. I was alluding to you using a mindset shaping by today's instant communications. The Vyshaan however were operating from a period of (relatively) rapid success and expansion. Life was good for Aryvandaar, they were at the height of their civilization and no one could resist their might. That's an extraordinarily different set of circumstances compared to Nazi Germany, so the comparison just does not work. I know... I'm disputing the comparison altogether. See above. Aggressive warfare is by no means the province of the aggrandized and impoverished. Wealth and success do not prohibit one from engaging in more conquest. The big problem I have with the Aryvandaarans in terms of culpability of their populace happened in -9900 DR, when they start persecuting other High Mages and powerful clerics... it apparently takes the people some 700 to 900 years to figure out that maybe their rulers are up to no good at that point... sorry, but I don't think even elves work that slowly. Can you elaborate? I don't want to assume about your point. |
| MaskedOne04-25-07, 01:10 AM | Slightly off topic but most of sun elven nobles who tried to draw moonblades probably weren't villains but good aligned courageous servants of their people. Moonblades are a touch more complex and exacting than death spell contingent on non-good alignment. Being unsuited to bear one is not a mark against one's character. Being unwise enough to try when a high ranking priest and seer has advised that an attempt will probably be fatal might be a sign of poor judgement but not poor character, necessarily. |
| Stigger04-25-07, 02:50 AM | Hate to say it Phil, but that Gold elf example of being surprised about being evil just says that Gold Elves are more adept at self-deception, which isn't exactly a racial trait to be proud of. I'd say that was much worse honestly. ;) And what the Vyshaan did or didn't do is largely unknown in a lot of respects. We do know that they marched into neighboring kingdoms and took them over (Miyeritar, Shantal Othreier, Illefarn). And apparently built fortresses to help suppress rebellions in conquered territory (the Occupational Forts). You don't have something referred to as a Crown War if all your doing is talking... nor do you need to build fortresses to hold territory if it was peaceful. Nor do you unleash things like the Dark Disaster... Nor do you threaten your neighbors with invasion if all you're interested in is talking, as they did in Shantel Othreier's case. As to the communications issue, I'm perfectly well aware of just how crap communications were historically. But then they didn't have magical ability to help that along, so it seems a bit silly to apply assumptions over communication capability and the mindset it produces when we have no idea what those capabilities were. The only real basis we have to go off of is modern elves, and honestly I don't think they were even remotely similar if they were organizing into kingdoms and marching into each others holdings with armies... Not entirely sure, but I think we're both in agreement that WW2 does not make for a good comparison point... the two conflicts are just too fundamentally different for much other than contrast. My point was that 700 years before the end of the Wars, the Vyshaan start persecuting high ranking clerics and high mages, presumably just the ones not loyal to them personally. And it took their people all that time, the 700 years, of seeing their clerics of the Seldarine and more neutrally aligned high mages to figure out that something bad may have been going on. I could see maybe a century, possibly two, given the possibly bad communications, but 7 centuries of seeing priests of their own gods getting persecuted? That sounds more like willful ignorance, or an overwhelming case of the banality of evil setting in... either way, I'd say it made them culpable for the Vyshaans crimes on at least some level. If you read the section of the timeline at -9200, it says the Vyshaantar Empire rebels against the proclmations of the Elven Court, which directs the elves of Aryvandaar to repudiate their Vyshaan rulesrs. It does not say that the Vyshaan family rebelled, nor any other qualifiers as to whom it might have been. Its says the Empire, which presumably means as a whole. The written out section elaborating on the 5th Crown War does nothing to dispel that interpretation. It does mention disloyal High Mages and Wizards, but nothing of the commoners... though it does mention the considerable loyalty on the part of their troops and supporters. Doesn't sound to me like an Empire who was willing to listen to the Seldarine's decrees and renounce the Vyshaan. Hence, culpable with the Vyshaans for the actions during the wars. |
| Lord Karsus04-25-07, 08:28 AM | Hate to say it Phil, but that Gold elf example of being surprised about being evil just says that Gold Elves are more adept at self-deception, which isn't exactly a racial trait to be proud of. I'd say that was much worse honestly. ;) -Let's use Kymil Nimesin as an example, before he began trafficking with dark powers, however. Was he really evil? In his mind, he was doing the right thing of all of Elvenkind. In his mind, and those of his followers, he was saving the Elven race from stagnation and whatnot under the rule of Queen Amlauril. Sure, his methods weren't right (allowing Red Wizards to try to loot Evermeet), but is organizing a coup really evil? Not that I believe what I'm saying 100%, but just to play both sides of the fence... |
| Kerym Ammath04-25-07, 08:40 AM | It has a common thread of blinding pride. They always think that they can do a better job, than whoever is doing it now. The best reasons in the world, which they don't have would not justify their actions. It is not just pride though, what really drives them is the desire for power. Power to make the Sun Elves rule, put the other subraces in their appropriate place, and remove any who spout un elven beliefs (anyone who disagrees with you). You could believe you are the nicest guy in the world, but it would not change the fact, that your motivations and goals are in fact based on a purely selfish world view, which gives total disregard to anyone else, to the point of allowing them to be casually butchered if it promotes your desires. That in my book is damn evil, more so because it is damn cold. |
| Stigger04-25-07, 08:46 AM | Umm... from a purely metagaming point of view, absolutely his actions were evil. Even from an in-game point of view, you'd think that the EV would have figured out by now, all these centuries later, that if the various clerics of the Seldarine weren't joining their cause that maybe something was wrong with their agenda. So their either actively stupid in that respect, deluding themselves to an unreasonable degree, full of manure, or insane (One of the definitions of insanity is repeating the same behaviour and expecting different results from the last time... simplified, but it works well enough for my purposes here), take your pick. Now as to organizing a coup being evil, no, in and of itself its not. However the reasons behind that coup, and the extremes one is willing to go to define whether or not that coup is evil or not. At least within the context of the alignment system. And from what I know of it, that coup attempt qualified pretty nicely as evil. |
| Lord Karsus04-25-07, 09:02 AM | You could believe you are the nicest guy in the world, but it would not change the fact, that your motivations and goals are in fact based on a purely selfish world view, which gives total disregard to anyone else, to the point of allowing them to be casually butchered if it promotes your desires. That in my book is damn evil, more so because it is damn cold. -Now, what happens if, in your making decisions purely based on your own view of things, you do the most amount of good for the most amount of people? A benevolent dictator, if you will. Are you still that same kind of evil? :P Even from an in-game point of view, you'd think that the EV would have figured out by now, all these centuries later, that if the various clerics of the Seldarine weren't joining their cause that maybe something was wrong with their agenda. -I'm sure they have some kind of explanations as to why that occurs. You know, I might have to add something like that in my EV article, so make it more "complete". Hmm...Perhaps the Seldarine is putting them through a test, denying them the power of Clerical magic and whatnot, to see if they are truly strong enough to usher in a new age of Elvendom. Sounds good. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-25-07, 09:06 AM | Pride more often than not leads to a fall. Not always, just more often. Bringing thing around full circle, despite what some might say, I think Blackstaff was an excellent example of someone who had pride, but a humble and appropriate pride.:) |
| Stigger04-25-07, 09:06 AM | Erm, last I checked they were waiting for the Seldarine to wise up and acknowledge the justness of their cause... so far, no takers. Not sure how that doesn't qualify them as delusional... particularly since they've seen fit to try to go with the nature-granted druid route. Obviously they're beginning to lose some hope of getting the Seldarine behind them and looking for alternatives... which pretty much undermines their entire bloody point. |
| Lord Karsus04-25-07, 09:12 AM | Erm, last I checked they were waiting for the Seldarine to wise up and acknowledge the justness of their cause... so far, no takers. -I don't know right now- it's early, I had a pretty bad night, and my plans for today aren't looking that much better. ;) -But, do you think that something like that is going to be mentioned by the EV's PR? |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 09:17 AM | Hate to say it Phil, but that Gold elf example of being surprised about being evil just says that Gold Elves are more adept at self-deception, which isn't exactly a racial trait to be proud of. I'd say that was much worse honestly. ;) I'll have to respectfully disagree. There is a very stark difference between the self-shattering fatalism that Nimesin embarks on his campaign against Evermeet with--having realized he is, in fact, evil--and the delicious malice that drow engage in their deeds with. I you can't see the difference between the two... I'm scared of you. ;) You don't have something referred to as a Crown War if all your doing is talking... I didn't say that was the case. I stated that the Vyshaan argued they had legal claims to neighboring kingdoms, much like the English and French monarchs of the Hundred Years' War era each claimed they were rightful sovereigns over the others' territories/realms. I also stated that they negotiated over this for centuries prior to hostilities breaking out. This surely shows that the leaders of the Aryvandaari were pragmatic, but it also demonstrates that they felt that legality was on their side. This would have influenced their populace. As to the communications issue, I'm perfectly well aware of just how crap communications were historically. But then they didn't have magical ability to help that along, so it seems a bit silly to apply assumptions over communication capability and the mindset it produces when we have no idea what those capabilities were. Again, you confuse my point. I'm saying that you thanks to a lifetime of instant communications in a relatively free society that is allowed to question and criticize its leadership, have a viewpoint that doesn't really accomodate for the reality of -12000 DR Sun Elves. That group lived in a sort of authoritarian government where the magic-using populace had no specific responsibility to the public to provide news, objective or not. My point was that 700 years before the end of the Wars, the Vyshaan start persecuting high ranking clerics and high mages, presumably just the ones not loyal to them personally. And it took their people all that time, the 700 years, of seeing their clerics of the Seldarine and more neutrally aligned high mages to figure out that something bad may have been going on. The problem here is that you don't really know what the people knew or what they did about it. That's the problem with the whole Ilythiir vs. Aryvandaar debate. With the former, the evidence has finally been specifically outlined by the objective developers. With the latter, you have to rely on conjecture to make the Aryvandaari as bad as the dark elves. If you read the section of the timeline at -9200, it says the Vyshaantar Empire rebels against the proclmations of the Elven Court, which directs the elves of Aryvandaar to repudiate their Vyshaan rulesrs. It does not say that the Vyshaan family rebelled, nor any other qualifiers as to whom it might have been. Its says the Empire, which presumably means as a whole. Well, that's incorrect. The elaborating text under the Fifth Crown War shows Gylthas carrying out a pogrom against non-loyal high magi to the point where only his sons and brothers remain alive within his empire with that art. The text also interestingly qualifies the rebels as "troops and supporters of the Vyshaan," as opposed to the whole of the army and its populace. The written out section elaborating on the 5th Crown War does nothing to dispel that interpretation. It does mention disloyal High Mages and Wizards, but nothing of the commoners... Exactly. The conclusions you arrive at are largely driven by association. That's simply not enough to level on them the same sort of damning guilt that goes with the Ilythiir. |
| MarkusTay6304-25-07, 04:54 PM | Can we start a Gold Elf vs. Dark Elf thread, or something similar. The cross-pollination of this argument is now ruining several threads, and I'm afraid they may get shut-down for going so far off-topic. :( Back on topic - As has been mentioned already, an anthology showing us some of what REALLY went on, the events leading up to the dark Disaster, would go a long way in making me feel better about the let-down at the end of Blackstaff (at least for me). The Miyeritar had a vibrant and magical culture, and Aryvandaar was jealous, plain and simple. It was a culture of green and Dark Elves, not Gold and Silver, and best epitomizes the Elven potential. The Keltormir(?) Elves helped some escape Aryvandaar persecution, and I for one would LOVE to know what happened to them. Perhaps there is still a secret group of them (now Drow) living in peace and harmony inside the forest of Tethir; perhaps that is one of the many reasons humans are not allowed into that forest? Also, Illythiir was located far to the south, but it's armies marched north. They certainly didn't abandon their homeland en mass, so what happened to all of their families... the ones who 'stayed home'? And is it possible for some tribes NOT to have followed the rest in their 'crusade' against the LiosAlfar (Light Elves)? As I mentioned in the other thread, the Illythiiri were warlike but did not make a practice out of making war on other Elves. This would mean that their society was fractured, and had much inter-tribal warfare. What happened to those 'other tribes' of dark Elves? To say that they all followed the army is rediculous and unrealistic; there should have been pockets of them spread throughout the south who did not believe in the 'useless war to the north'. In other words, we need more info then what was given at the end of Blackstaff, and something official covering the events that lead up to that book would be greatly appreciated. -Let's use Kymil Nimesin as an example, before he began trafficking with dark powers, however. Was he really evil? In his mind, he was doing the right thing of all of Elvenkind. In his mind, and those of his followers, he was saving the Elven race from stagnation and whatnot under the rule of Queen Amlauril. Sure, his methods weren't right (allowing Red Wizards to try to loot Evermeet), but is organizing a coup really evil? Not that I believe what I'm saying 100%, but just to play both sides of the fence...Not to pick a fight with one of my best cyber-buds, But a certain German fellow truly thought he was doing what was right and good for HIS people. He didn't consider himself evil either. Self-delusion is a scarey thing; even more so in the hands of an eloquent madman. ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-25-07, 05:08 PM | <..Summons a quintet of Thorciasids and sicks them upon the local MILF chapter..>;) |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 05:17 PM | The Keltormir(?) Elves helped some escape Aryvandaar persecution, and I for one would LOVE to know what happened to them. The Ilythiir attacked them for about 1000-1200 years during the Second Crown War. :D |
| Prince Indirian04-25-07, 05:18 PM | -Historically, Sun Elves, due to their greater fascination with magic, and their inherent prowess at it (+2 INT), have always been among the most numerous of the Selu'Taar. You do know exactly what GD was saying ? . According to him they have always been the majority, which is true today, but note neccessarily in the past, (very inlikely, actually) since races of faerun clearly says that in this time and age they make up the majority. If that was case in the past they would have said that wouldn't they ? The entire elven race has a fascination with magic. The moon mix their magic with martial, wood elves have another streak etc. And for example wood elves in the past were likely more magical inclined than today since their realm Miyertar was possobly the MOST magical realm during the most magical age in elven history. The star elves have a +2 Cha and a bardic tradition does that mean they have the majority of all epic elven bards or sorcery (while we are it). To make such an assumption when ones primary claim says otherwise is a bit to much for me. Much has changed since the Crown Wars, as I said before magic was different and the view on it was different as well. Also note that according to him they were also essential in banishment, something I find odd, due to the fact the Aryvandaar (the greatest sun elven realm) was not as far as we know part of that spell, and possible neither was Shantel Ortheir (sp), which was partial sun elven realm, due to the fact that it was a part of the Vyshaan Realm. Not to mention they were never included as part of it, though correct me please if I was wrong. With that said, I can say it's not unlikely (actually I agree completely that after CW such was the case) at all in my opinion that Sun elves make up the majority (after the whole Crown Wars era) of HMs. Darn I could argue for it as well. But prior to that the view that many other elves had on magic was different. And that's the relevant parts (the culture), stats are unimportant here. So I am not saying that tey didnt make up the majority in past as well, thoough to make such a claim one better bring some proof. You are also saying "among the most numerous", that's different from saying that they are most numerous (like GD), though I agree more with you here then. There were less subraces then and of those with an unsual inclination (from an elven point of view) towards magic were certainly the sun elves. GD, brought up some very good points that are completely plausible TODAY, less so in the past. -Let's use Kymil Nimesin as an example, before he began trafficking with dark powers, however. Was he really evil? In his mind, he was doing the right thing of all of Elvenkind. In his mind, and those of his followers, he was saving the Elven race from stagnation and whatnot under the rule of Queen Amlauril. Sure, his methods weren't right (allowing Red Wizards to try to loot Evermeet), but is organizing a coup really evil? Not that I believe what I'm saying 100%, but just to play both sides of the fence... "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Well, that's incorrect. The elaborating text under the Fifth Crown War shows Gylthas carrying out a pogrom against non-loyal high magi to the point where only his sons and brothers remain alive within his empire with that art. The text also interestingly qualifies the rebels as "troops and supporters of the Vyshaan," as opposed to the whole of the army and its populace. Hmm, somewhat correct, I would say. He began assasniating High Magi that stood against him, counting on his kin to protect him. But it doesn't say he killed those that didn't stand against and whom weren't his kin. And that my friend is a difference. I don't get what you mean by calling his loyal troops and supporters for rebels... But the thing is clear from an LEOF perspective and GD said it before, the Vyshaan were mostly responsible for the Aryvandaars corruption, though the population undoubtly had some responsibility and should have gotten a token punishment at least. |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 05:25 PM | Hmm, somewhat correct, I would say. He began assasniating High Magi that stood against him, counting on his kin to protect him. But it doesn't say he killed those that didn't stand against and whom weren't his kin. And that my friend is a difference. Huh? Sorry, but you lost me there. The text is very clear on the above matter. All wizards and high mages who stood against Gilthas were assassignated. I'm really not sure what distinction you're trying to make. I don't get what you mean by calling his loyal troops and supporters for rebels... Simple. The text qualifies that not all Aryvandaar stood by the Vyshaan. It specifically mentions that the Fifth Crown War was waged against the Vyshaan Clan and those who remained loyal to it--not against Aryvandaar. This makes sense, given that the Aryvandaari by now would have known of the verdict laid down by the Elven Court brought together by Corellon himself. ... the Vyshaan were mostly responsible for the Aryvandaars corruption, though the population undoubtly had some responsibility and should have gotten a token punishment at least. I don't see why. The Elven Court convened for a thousand years with the blessing of Corellon and without any interference. Given that the majority of the representatives came from members of nations and subraces that had suffered under the oppression and war of the Vyshaan, and who had infinitely more information/experience re: the Crown Wars, I'm not sure how you can question their call. |
| Stigger04-25-07, 05:58 PM | I'll have to respectfully disagree. There is a very stark difference between the self-shattering fatalism that Nimesin embarks on his campaign against Evermeet with--having realized he is, in fact, evil--and the delicious malice that drow engage in their deeds with. I you can't see the difference between the two... I'm scared of you. ;) Of course I can see the difference, I just put the Sun Elves tendency towards not understanding their own evil due to self delusion as a greater sin than active cruel evil. I'd class a person who had the courage to admit their own evil as better as a person, as oppossed to a person who committed atrocity and was delusional enough to not admit the evil of it. You can come up with any justifications you like for your actions, it doesn't change the fact that you're still a monster. I didn't say that was the case. I stated that the Vyshaan argued they had legal claims to neighboring kingdoms, much like the English and French monarchs of the Hundred Years' War era each claimed they were rightful sovereigns over the others' territories/realms. I also stated that they negotiated over this for centuries prior to hostilities breaking out. This surely shows that the leaders of the Aryvandaari were pragmatic, but it also demonstrates that they felt that legality was on their side. This would have influenced their populace. And the Hundred Years War was somehow less horrific with a legal justification? The legalities of war of that particular part of Earths history were influenced largely by the fact that it was the only way to gain land. You could not buy land from anyone, you could only seize it or inherit it. Of course the various nations had to come up with legal means to do so, otherwise they faced church sanctions and possible excommunication if they aggravated the See badly enough. I don't see much evidence of a system that forced that sort of behaviour on the Elven thrones... beyond intrigue purposes and avoiding giving your neighbors a causus belli. Sure they pressed their case for several centuries, but instead of being reasonable and simply marrying off another daughter/sister/whatever and taking the long view, they got impatient and decided to get aggressive and invade. That seems awfully... human of them. Actually, the whole premise behind the Crown Wars sounds awfully human to begin with. Beyond that, there's nothing in the text that suggests their claims were legitimate in the first place. Again, you confuse my point. I'm saying that you thanks to a lifetime of instant communications in a relatively free society that is allowed to question and criticize its leadership, have a viewpoint that doesn't really accomodate for the reality of -12000 DR Sun Elves. That group lived in a sort of authoritarian government where the magic-using populace had no specific responsibility to the public to provide news, objective or not. Well, we don't really know that per se. Most of this is supposition based on a relatively small number of paragraphs, and most of it is open to interpretation. We have that, and our knowledge of current elven life to go off of. Kinda hard to imagine those flitty little chaotic elves putting up with an authoritarian regime for several millennia... unless you're agreeing that we're dealing with my previous point that we have no bloody clue what the elves of this era are really like, in which case the whole arguement is supposition on both are parts. I understand your point about growing up in a communications culture, but we're both guilty of that one ultimately. But at least that gives us an equal impediement, culturally speaking. ;) The problem here is that you don't really know what the people knew or what they did about it. That's the problem with the whole Ilythiir vs. Aryvandaar debate. With the former, the evidence has finally been specifically outlined by the objective developers. With the latter, you have to rely on conjecture to make the Aryvandaari as bad as the dark elves. That's also the problem with the conclusion that all of the Dark Elves were culpable for the actions of the Illythiiri. We have to rely on conjecture for all of it, its all we really have to go on, since the wording of those passages are ambiguous enough to be open to quite a bit of interpretation. There is very little in the way of absolutes in them to rely on. Well, that's incorrect. The elaborating text under the Fifth Crown War shows Gylthas carrying out a pogrom against non-loyal high magi to the point where only his sons and brothers remain alive within his empire with that art. The text also interestingly qualifies the rebels as "troops and supporters of the Vyshaan," as opposed to the whole of the army and its populace. And troops and supporters of the Vyshaan can be seen as most, if not all, of their armed forces in the context of the Vyshaantar Empire. It depends largely on how you interpret those paragraphs. The words can support both points of view without much trouble. Exactly. The conclusions you arrive at are largely driven by association. That's simply not enough to level on them the same sort of damning guilt that goes with the Ilythiir. Well, what do we really know about the Ilythiiri? We know that they entered a defacto state of war against Orishaar, an ally of Aryvandaar. We also know that a century later Thearnytaar and Eiellur declare war on them, after they burned a elven realm to the ground. At this point Llolth starts to get more involved with them... so that tells us that her influence among them was not that widespread after some 8,000 years of trying to get in there. In fact, the passage for -11,500 would suggest she doesn't control any of the major clans prior to that date. After this we see Eiellur taken out of the war after being razed by dark elves and some wild elf traitors, soon followed by Thearnytaar being attacked and conquered using undead and dominated monsters. So the Ilythiiri took out the two nations who declared war upon them at this point, an ally of Aryvandaar was eliminated, and a third who got in the way. Given their justificiation of coming to Miyeritars aid, taking out an ally of Aryvandaar is certainly a reasonable tactic. The Syorpiir incident was unfortunate, and probably not the best thing they could have done, but perhaps they were giving succor to the Orishaarans, and so got themselves involved indirectly. And the other two were defensive campaigns that went poorly for the aggressors. So they've got their blood pumping at this point and start seeing enemies everywhere, the banality and fog of war both at work there I think. So they attack Keltormir, probably thinking they're in league with the Aryvandaarans, since everyone else sure seemed to be, and Keltormir does the smart thing and gets out of the way... so what happens next? They Illythiiri promptly see them withdrawing and begin their campaign against the Aryvandaarans. Soon after Shantal Othreier is destroyed by the Illythiiri, though as one will recall that was part of Aryvandaar at that point. Soon after, we have the descent and the drow are born... What we know of Aryvandaar... they try to politically annex Miyeritar, but that fails and they begin a low scale guerrilla action against them on their borders to disrupt their trade, and by extension, their economy, keeping up this state of low-scale warfare for over a millennia it would seem. Eventually, they get sick of Miyeritar resisting their terror tactics and drop all pretense and just simply invade, all the while attempting to intimidate Shantel Othreier into accepting annexation or suffering the same fate. The Aryvandaars spend the next several centuries trying to subdue the Miyeritarans. At this point, Malkazid enters the picture and becomes the Vyshaans secret patron. Only 400 years after Lolth enters the picture and starts seducing major Illythiiri clans. To celebrate, the Aryvandaarans invade Shantel Othreier... which gets interrupted by an orc horde that costs 70,000 elven lives. A century later the Aryvandaarans complete their conquest of Shantel Othreier, though at this point serious resistance movements start popping up over Shantel Othreier and Miyeritar. A century after those resistances show up, the Vyshaan unleash the Dark Disaster upon the world... pretty impatient to say the least. Soon after the Aryvandaarans and Illythiiri meet each other, and the Aryvandaarans lose Shantel Othreier to the Illythiiri. At this point the Elven Court is called, and the drow are born as a result, and Corellon tells his kids to play nice, the bad seed is gone, all hearts should rejoice. A century later, Aryvandaar annexes Illefarn, and starts persecuting priests and high mages not loyal to them. And the next century sees them occupying all the remaining elven nations on Faerun. Now I don't know about anyone else, but the word occupation usually implies 'with troops', so they pretty much ignored the Elven Court thing and decided that it was going to be peace through their superior firepower. Its around this point that the Drow make themselves known and start attacking their old friends the Aryvandaarans. A few centuries later, the other elves decide their sick of the Aryvandaarans and tell them to repudiate the Vyshaan... so starts the fifth and last Crown War, Malkazid abandons them, and two centuries later the war ends. My read of both of those is that the Illythiiri were engaging in a relatively straightforward military campaign that got a little savage at times. They got carried away, went too far, and in that haze of bloodshed fell into Lolths arms. As oppossed to the Aryvandaarans and their Vyshaan masters, who went about everything in a precise and calculated manner, all in the name of power and greed. If one looks at the timelines, the Vyshaan were under Malkazids influence some 400 years longer than the Illythiiri were under Lolths... and are somehow better than those Illythiiri. Which tells us what exactly? That all depends on how we choose to interpret it all. A case could be made for the Illythiiri being tragic figures who simply fell too far into their desire for revenge... a case could be made for the Aryvandaarans being tragic figures who didn't realize the evil of their Vyshaan masters... a case could be made that the Aryvandaarans were complicit with their Vyshaan masters and due to being Corellons favored children were excused while Araushnee's bastards were punished for being her children... a case could be made that everyone got exactly what they deserved. It all depends on how you choose to interpret the relavent sections. Which ultimately the point, that all of this stuff is subject to interpretation, and that there isn't one concrete interpretation to any of it, beyond names, dates, and happenings. We know the whos, the whats, the whens, but the hows are a little ambiguous, and the whys are pure speculation at this point... we assign motive and intent to fit our interpretation, but we don't really have a clue when it comes down to it. |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 06:45 PM | Of course I can see the difference, I just put the Sun Elves tendency towards not understanding their own evil due to self delusion as a greater sin than active cruel evil. I'd class a person who had the courage to admit their own evil as better as a person, as oppossed to a person who committed atrocity and was delusional enough to not admit the evil of it. You can come up with any justifications you like for your actions, it doesn't change the fact that you're still a monster. Well, your comparison hinges on some extremes. Kymil Nimesin and his friends, for example, killed those they felt they *had* to kill. They weren't killing for the pleasure of it. Is it evil? Absolutely. Is it even near the same ballpark as killing for pleasure--as a way of life? No way. And the Hundred Years War was somehow less horrific with a legal justification? I didn't say it was; the point I was making, and the question that has yet to be answered, is whether the people of France and England can be held culpable for the actions of their rulers and nobles during that war. The Aryvandaari Sun Elves, so far as they knew, were fighting to enforce the rightful rule of their nation over another nation that had "stubbornly refused" to do the right thing depsite centuries of mediation. Fact is, wars happen all the time without a population being held culpable. Evn if you assume the worse for the intents behind the US government, would you call all Americans evil because of the War Against Terrorism? Would you call even 50% of Iraqis evil because of Saddam Hussein? Of course you wouldn't. Actually, the whole premise behind the Crown Wars sounds awfully human to begin with. Agreed. I think a better plot could have been concocted. Beyond that, there's nothing in the text that suggests their claims were legitimate in the first place. The text says nothing about the claims being illegitimate, and it qualifies instances elsewhere when someone's lying. The claims were likely nothing much more than what we would have seen in Europe: "my grand-grandather married your grand-grand-aunt; you owe me your throne!!!" Well, we don't really know that per se. Most of this is supposition based on a relatively small number of paragraphs, and most of it is open to interpretation. We have that, and our knowledge of current elven life to go off of. Kinda hard to imagine those flitty little chaotic elves putting up with an authoritarian regime for several millennia... unless you're agreeing that we're dealing with my previous point that we have no bloody clue what the elves of this era are really like, in which case the whole arguement is supposition on both are parts. There's no source that states Sun Elves are chaotic in alignment--to my knowledge, at least. Similarly, no source, again, to my knowledge, paints a picture wherein the magical authorities/powers of the realm serve as a sort of news service for the greater population. I understand your point about growing up in a communications culture, but we're both guilty of that one ultimately. But at least that gives us an equal impediement, culturally speaking. ;) Does not! ;) That's also the problem with the conclusion that all of the Dark Elves were culpable for the actions of the Illythiiri. We have to rely on conjecture for all of it, its all we really have to go on, since the wording of those passages are ambiguous enough to be open to quite a bit of interpretation. There is very little in the way of absolutes in them to rely on. But I never blamed all the dark elves for the actions of the Ilythiiri. My entire argument is directed at the Ilythiiri--not at any other dark elves. :) And troops and supporters of the Vyshaan can be seen as most, if not all, of their armed forces in the context of the Vyshaantar Empire. It depends largely on how you interpret those paragraphs. The words can support both points of view without much trouble. Perhaps, but the language choice and the cited instance of an internal pogrom shows that this was not the case. Unless Gilthas had an amazing amount of sons and brothers, he did away with the vast majority of his wizards and high magi. Given this example, it's a but contrived to assume that most, if not at all, of the foot soldiers somehow maintained lock-step loyalty. Well, what do we really know about the Ilythiiri? We know that they entered a defacto state of war against Orishaar, an ally of Aryvandaar. A premise qualified as weak, against a trading ally and nothing more. My read of both of those is that the Illythiiri were engaging in a relatively straightforward military campaign that got a little savage at times. They got carried away, went too far, and in that haze of bloodshed fell into Lolths arms. As oppossed to the Aryvandaarans and their Vyshaan masters, who went about everything in a precise and calculated manner, all in the name of power and greed. The accompanying text implies that the Ilythiiri were every but as calculating as the Vyshaan. The Vyshaan never destroyed an ENTIRE REALM pre-Malkizid. If one looks at the timelines, the Vyshaan were under Malkazids influence some 400 years longer than the Illythiiri were under Lolths... and are somehow better than those Illythiiri. Uh, no it doesn't? -18,000: several (number unknown) Ilythiiri Houses worship Ghaunadaur and Lolth. -11,500: Wendonai shows up; Lolth's church in prominence (but has been in place for some time now) -10,900: Malkizid shows up. So, in fact, the Ilythiir had had one level of involvement or another with Lolth for 7,100 years--and 6 centuries of open Lolthite supremacy within their nation--before Malkizid ever contacted the Vyshaan. ... a case could be made that the Aryvandaarans were complicit with their Vyshaan masters and due to being Corellons favored children were excused ... Not at all true. Corellon called the conclave that was given rein to determine the punishment of the Vyshaan. Had all of Aryvandaar been complicit, the coalition of Elven nations would have had the power to deal with them all regardless--as shown by their ability to banish the dark elves. We know the whos, the whats, the whens, but the hows are a little ambiguous, and the whys are pure speculation at this point... we assign motive and intent to fit our interpretation, but we don't really have a clue when it comes down to it. Not really; the motive's there, and the means are likewise outlines. The only vagueness, if you ask me, revolves around the failure of the High Magic used to banish the dark elves. Good words, though! |
| Lord Karsus04-25-07, 07:14 PM | Not to pick a fight with one of my best cyber-buds, But a certain German fellow truly thought he was doing what was right and good for HIS people. He didn't consider himself evil either. Self-delusion is a scarey thing; even more so in the hands of an eloquent madman. ;) -There's a difference between fighting and having a good debate. ;) -Anyway, that really isn't the best comparison, since that certain German fellow also carried out undeniably LE actions. Kymil, on the other hand, never really did anything (before he began trafficking with Lolth) that was undeniably LE. As someone (I believe it was you, actually), said in the other thread, and I am paraphrasing, war, death and politics go hand and hand. See what I'm getting at? "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." -Do you happen to know who that quote can be attributed to? |
| Stigger04-25-07, 07:40 PM | Well, your comparison hinges on some extremes. Kymil Nimesin and his friends, for example, killed those they felt they *had* to kill. They weren't killing for the pleasure of it. Is it evil? Absolutely. Is it even near the same ballpark as killing for pleasure--as a way of life? No way. Think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that point. I'd put a fellow who deluded himself into thinking that he was a good guy when his gods pretty clearly disagree with him as a lot worse than a fellow who killed for pleasure as a way of life. A matter of perspective and opinion I doubt we'll resolve. Of course I say this with an outside perspective, but that's the only way I'd choose to look at the matter. :) I didn't say it was; the point I was making, and the question that has yet to be answered, is whether the people of France and England can be held culpable for the actions of their rulers and nobles during that war. The Aryvandaari Sun Elves, so far as they knew, were fighting to enforce the rightful rule of their nation over another nation that had "stubbornly refused" to do the right thing depsite centuries of mediation. Fact is, wars happen all the time without a population being held culpable. Evn if you assume the worse for the intents behind the US government, would you call all Americans evil because of the War Against Terrorism? Would you call even 50% of Iraqis evil because of Saddam Hussein? Of course you wouldn't. No, I wouldn't say the people of France or England were culpable. They were getting just as screwed by their own soldiers as they were by the enemy. Nor would I make those claims against Americans or Iraqis... but the same courtesy should probably be extended to the Ilythiiri is my point. Presuming the analogy of the nobility leading the way in all respects holds true for the elves of the time, why would we hold the average Ilythiiri responsible for what gods they were told to worship. Lets presume for a moment that the nobles told the commoners that the Seldarine had abandoned them in favor of the Aryvandaarans, and that Araushnee had returned to grace them once more... you're racial matron has basically returned from the dead after that evil Corellon banished her, what's not to rejoice about? Depending on how the matter was spun by the nobility, the average Illythiiri could very well have been duped into worshipping Lolth in a lot of respects. The text says nothing about the claims being illegitimate, and it qualifies instances elsewhere when someone's lying. The claims were likely nothing much more than what we would have seen in Europe: "my grand-grandather married your grand-grand-aunt; you owe me your throne!!!" That line rang hollow in most cases of European history, I don't see much reason for it to not ring hollow in most cases of Faerunian history. There's no source that states Sun Elves are chaotic in alignment--to my knowledge, at least. Which adds to my disgust with them. They claim to be the paragons and upholders of elven ideals and tradition... the great champions of the Seldarine. And they don't even share the same basic core alignment... sounds like hypocrisy to me, more than anything else. And yet more evidence of that ability to delude themselves as a culture. Similarly, no source, again, to my knowledge, paints a picture wherein the magical authorities/powers of the realm serve as a sort of news service for the greater population. True, I'll grant you that much. But it doesn't say they don't either. ;) But I never blamed all the dark elves for the actions of the Ilythiiri. My entire argument is directed at the Ilythiiri--not at any other dark elves. :) Perhaps, but the language choice and the cited instance of an internal pogrom shows that this was not the case. Unless Gilthas had an amazing amount of sons and brothers, he did away with the vast majority of his wizards and high magi. Given this example, it's a but contrived to assume that most, if not at all, of the foot soldiers somehow maintained lock-step loyalty. Yes, the language could support that point of view. It could also support other points of view. Which was kinda my point. You interpret one way, I interpret it another. But really, neither of us can really say one way or another until the fellows who wrote it comment on it one way or another. A premise qualified as weak, against a trading ally and nothing more. So you're suggesting that a strike against the Aryvandaaran's logistical capabilities wasn't a good idea? A trading partner is still supplying logistical aid for the real targets war effort, so its a valid target in the context of the era, I'd say. Given the geography as I'm understanding it, there wasn't much possibility of an effective blockade or interdiction, so invasion is the only real option to stopping that flow of resources. The accompanying text implies that the Ilythiiri were every but as calculating as the Vyshaan. The Vyshaan never destroyed an ENTIRE REALM pre-Malkizid. No, they just conquered them, and had the manpower to hold them... whereas the Illythiiri didn't, by my understanding of it. Scorched Earth Total War... makes sense from a strategic point of view, even if it is a tad bit harsh by modern sensibilities. Uh, no it doesn't? -18,000: several (number unknown) Ilythiiri Houses worship Ghaunadaur and Lolth. -11,500: Wendonai shows up; Lolth's church in prominence (but has been in place for some time now) -10,900: Malkizid shows up. So, in fact, the Ilythiir had had one level of involvement or another with Lolth for 7,100 years--and 6 centuries of open Lolthite supremacy within their nation--before Malkizid ever contacted the Vyshaan. Nope, she sent Wendonai to seduce over a major clan... that says to me she didn't have that firm of a grasp on the society at all up to that point. Influence among minor clans isn't quite the same thing as influencing the major ones, not by any stretch. Not at all true. Corellon called the conclave that was given rein to determine the punishment of the Vyshaan. Had all of Aryvandaar been complicit, the coalition of Elven nations would have had the power to deal with them all regardless--as shown by their ability to banish the dark elves. Well, not sure I agree with that reasoning behind the Court being called. It was called to determine the cause of all the strife and violence... and eventually it came to the conclusion that it was the Vyshaan, some 800 years later. And during all this time they haven't figured out that the Vyshaan were the cause behind the Dark Disaster, and that the Ilythiiri's magics weren't nearly as bad by comparison. Sure, more destructive by description, but apparently Shantel Othreier hadn't remained the same wasteland that Miyeritar has... so not nearly as bad by my way of thinking. Up to that point, the Illythiiri hadn't turned their high magic fully towards warfare, whereas the Aryvandaarans had... What was probably simply a counter attack ended up as banishing event, while the attack that prompted it essentially went unpunished for some time to come. And the oh so clever and magical elves couldn't quite come up with a way to figure out who was behind the Dark Disaster in the first place... It seems remarkably unlikely that their diviners were that poorly skilled, and in any event, it is presumably true that Corellon knew one way or another... if he cared enough to banish the Illythiiri, why not caring enough to equally punish the Vyshaans? Not really; the motive's there, and the means are likewise outlines. The only vagueness, if you ask me, revolves around the failure of the High Magic used to banish the dark elves. Good words, though! I see the motive as considerably more fluid than you do apparently. But that's a matter of interpretation mostly, more than anything else anyway. :) |
| MarkusTay6304-25-07, 07:50 PM | The best conclusion I can draw from all of the above is that Drow are at least honest about being evil. So that would mean that Drow are really LE, and Gold Elves are CE. :eek: Drow: "Let me stab you with this knife, because I will enjoy it". Goldie: "Let me stab you with this knife, because I want to save you the pain and suffering of growing old". In the end, it kinda all just works out the same, don't it? ;) -Anyway, that really isn't the best comparison, since that certain German fellow also carried out undeniably LE actions. Kymil, on the other hand, never really did anything (before he began trafficking with Lolth) that was undeniably LE. As someone (I believe it was you, actually), said in the other thread, and I am paraphrasing, war, death and politics go hand and hand. See what I'm getting at? Arrgh! Using me own words against me! How cruel, how evil, how truly... Gold Elvish. ;) -Do you happen to know who that quote can be attributed to?No, but it sounds to me like it should be the underlying description of every Gold Elf ever born. :P |
| Stigger04-25-07, 07:52 PM | Sounds kinda like Milton, but I'm not sure about it in the slightest... |
| Lord Karsus04-25-07, 08:06 PM | Drow: "Let me stab you with this knife, because I will enjoy it". Goldie: "Let me stab you with this knife, because I want to save you the pain and suffering of growing old". In the end, it kinda all just works out the same, don't it? ;) -The Drow might reanimate your corpse, and use it to kill your loved ones (especially in the case of Kiaransalee), whereas the Sun Elves would never stoop to something so demeaning, to both the dead person and themselves. :) Arrgh! Using me own words against me! How cruel, how evil, how truly... Gold Elvish. ;) -Sorry 'bout that. All's fair in love, war and the FR message boards, though. :P -And anyway, as of late, I am doing that too, too often, using people's exact words to disprove what they have already said. Sounds kinda like Milton, but I'm not sure about it in the slightest... -Could be. At least now I have a possible lead. I shall go and investigate now... |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 08:07 PM | Think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that point. I'd put a fellow who deluded himself into thinking that he was a good guy when his gods pretty clearly disagree with him as a lot worse than a fellow who killed for pleasure as a way of life. A matter of perspective and opinion I doubt we'll resolve. Of course I say this with an outside perspective, but that's the only way I'd choose to look at the matter. :) Fair enough, but I still can't see how you can stack Matron Malice and Kymil Nimesin on the same ballpark to begin with. Nimesin, at least, felt some level of remorse for his actions. No, I wouldn't say the people of France or England were culpable. They were getting just as screwed by their own soldiers as they were by the enemy. Nor would I make those claims against Americans or Iraqis... but the same courtesy should probably be extended to the Ilythiiri is my point. The Ilythiiri were invested in demonic powers, though. That's a huge difference. Presuming the analogy of the nobility leading the way in all respects holds true for the elves of the time, why would we hold the average Ilythiiri responsible for what gods they were told to worship. Because opposing the Vyshaan and staying away from demons and evil deities should not be mutually exclusive. The Ilythiir's decision to take this route is their damning moment. Lets presume for a moment that the nobles told the commoners that the Seldarine had abandoned them in favor of the Aryvandaarans, and that Araushnee had returned to grace them once more... you're racial matron has basically returned from the dead after that evil Corellon banished her, what's not to rejoice about? Depending on how the matter was spun by the nobility, the average Illythiiri could very well have been duped into worshipping Lolth in a lot of respects. The problem with the above premise is exactly the fact that it's based on presumption. It's also a rash generalization. Religions have historically had problems subverting other religions by trying to play on the "holier and better" angle. Trying to do so on the basis of "I worship demons; why not believe me" is kind of unrealistic. Beyond that, the process of corruption was far longer in terms of time-span. It went back thousands of years. That line rang hollow in most cases of European history, I don't see much reason for it to not ring hollow in most cases of Faerunian history. I didn't say it didn't ring hollow. I said it was similar to those. Quite obviously European populaces rallied behind such tripe, though. Which adds to my disgust with them. They claim to be the paragons and upholders of elven ideals and tradition... the great champions of the Seldarine. And they don't even share the same basic core alignment... sounds like hypocrisy to me, more than anything else. And yet more evidence of that ability to delude themselves as a culture. What are the tenets of the Seldarine, and how does an LN or LG alignment conflict with them? True, I'll grant you that much. But it doesn't say they don't either. ;) You're asking me to disprove a negative. That's not how it works, though. If you're going to make a statement--"mages provided services in some ways comparable to today's information facilities" for example--you have to provide evidence to back it up. You can't say "prove that it didn't happen!" ;) Yes, the language could support that point of view. It could also support other points of view. How so? You can't use the cited example (pogrom) to corelate to an opposite where the rest are concerned. Coming off of the verdict of the Elven Court, it's somewhat unrealistic to assume that only the wizards and high magi were overwhelmingly opposed to the Vyshaan (given that only Gilthas' sons and brothers were trusted/spared). So you're suggesting that a strike against the Aryvandaaran's logistical capabilities wasn't a good idea? There's a difference between trading partners and logistical capabilities. To begin with, nothing says that the trade in any way had anything to do with Aryvandaar's war-fighting ability. The accompanying text would hardly have qualified the premise as "weak" had that ally been meaningful to the war. No, they just conquered them, and had the manpower to hold them... whereas the Illythiiri didn't, by my understanding of it. Source? Scorched Earth Total War... makes sense from a strategic point of view, even if it is a tad bit harsh by modern sensibilities. Actually, it's more than a tad bit harsh. It's anathema by Seldarine consideration--something reinforced by the fact that the remainder of the surface nations were collectively horrified/disgusted by the Ilythiiri's actions but not by the Aryvandaari's actions. It wasn't a matter of racia bias, either, given that they also banded to defeat the latter. Nope, she sent Wendonai to seduce over a major clan... that says to me she didn't have that firm of a grasp on the society at all up to that point. Influence among minor clans isn't quite the same thing as influencing the major ones, not by any stretch. Prominence is the key word here, and nothing above disputes the cited canon material. The accompanying text only paints a grimmer picture for the Ilythiiri, I'm afraid. Well, not sure I agree with that reasoning behind the Court being called. It was called to determine the cause of all the strife and violence... Is that not what I stated? Is that not what was in LEoF? ... and eventually it came to the conclusion that it was the Vyshaan, some 800 years later. And during all this time they haven't figured out that the Vyshaan were the cause behind the Dark Disaster, ... But they nonetheless determined that they were the ultimate villains, which is what matters. ... and that the Ilythiiri's magics weren't nearly as bad by comparison. The canon source disagrees with you, though. Your offering an outside perspective. The decision, though, was made by eyewitnesses and survivors of such attacks. What was probably simply a counter attack ended up as banishing event, ... It was intended as a banishing effect. The reasoning was that the Ilythiiri had turned their back on the Seldarine--which they had, in fact. ... while the attack that prompted it essentially went unpunished for some time to come. Only as long as it took to defeat and kill those responsible. You're kind of schewing things here, I'm afraid. ... if he cared enough to banish the Illythiiri, why not caring enough to equally punish the Vyshaans? Because death is worse. The banishing, along with Eilistraee, afforded the possibility of redemption and return. Many have done so. More will continue to do so, assuming Eilistraee doesn't bite it. Cheers! :) |
| Prince Indirian04-25-07, 08:08 PM | Huh? Sorry, but you lost me there. The text is very clear on the above matter. All wizards and high mages who stood against Gilthas were assassignated. I'm really not sure what distinction you're trying to make. Well you made it sound like the killed all those that didn't stand against them and whom were not Vyshanti. I mean there were likely those that were not Vyshanti but still supported them. Simple. The text qualifies that not all Aryvandaar stood by the Vyshaan. It specifically mentions that the Fifth Crown War was waged against the Vyshaan Clan and those who remained loyal to it--not against Aryvandaar. This makes sense, given that the Aryvandaari by now would have known of the verdict laid down by the Elven Court brought together by Corellon himself. Well it's quite clear that the majority did, until things begain going downwards for the Vyshann. But even then it took 200 YEARS for their supporters to figure this out despite the mandate. Are you trying to tell me they didn't have much support ? I don't see why. The Elven Court convened for a thousand years with the blessing of Corellon and without any interference. Given that the majority of the representatives came from members of nations and subraces that had suffered under the oppression and war of the Vyshaan, and who had infinitely more information/experience re: the Crown Wars, I'm not sure how you can question their call. Not the dark elves and they suffered the most. I can question their call since they supported an evil regime for many, many years, as a matter of facts for 200 years after verdict, people began figuring out they (the Vyshanti) were crazy. And that's when people begain leaving them en mass. Notice that uptil then the EVIL regime had the support of Aryvandaar. Though I am aware that those Aryvandaari who oppossed the Vyshaan, such as the Durothil family existed. Sure the Illithyr was more evil, but they got theirs didn't they. And while we are at it, the Council did little to fix the error that was inflicted on Miyertars dark elves...also noyice that the Vyshannti had spies among the represenatives at the council. It was corrupt as it could be and maybe that's probably why it took a millenia to figure who the culprits were. Also notice that creatin of it occured at the "apperant insistence" from CL...doesn't necessarily mean he was behind it...¨ However I can also see that elves decided that more punishement en masse was dangerous (as the dark elves became aware of) and therefore only targetted the core (the Vyshaan) of the evil rather then followers, whom were mostly sheep with LE alignment at worst. |
| Philalexandros04-25-07, 08:28 PM | Well you made it sound like the killed all those that didn't stand against them and whom were not Vyshanti. I mean there were likely those that were not Vyshanti but still supported them. Nope, the text is pretty clear, I think: "Giilvas Vyshaan ordered the murder of all the wizards and high magi who stood against him, counting only on his ... sons and brothers to protect the clan." Well it's quite clear that the majority did, until things begain going downwards for the Vyshann. But even then it took 200 YEARS for their supporters to figure this out despite the mandate. Are you trying to tell me they didn't have much support ? I'm trying to tell you that the Crown Wars did not feature continuing, recurring battle throughout every year of their duration. Not the dark elves and they suffered the most. The vast majority of the survivors were evil allies of demons and worshippers of the Dark Seldarine. That just doesn't fly. I can question their call since they supported an evil regime for many, many years, ... Wrong. The representatives of Aryvandaar did not even constitute a sizeable minority. Each subrace brought an equal representation, remember? That's Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Green Elves, etc. Being Sun Elf was not tantamount to being Aryvandaari. as a matter of facts for 200 years after verdict, people began figuring out they (the Vyshanti) were crazy. And that's when people begain leaving them en mass. Notice that uptil then the EVIL regime had the support of Aryvandaar. No. After the Elven Court reached its verdict, Gillvas began executing non-Vyshaan high magi and wizards within Aryvandaar. Doesn't sound like Aryvandaar was behind him to me. And while we are at it, the Council did little to fix the error that was inflicted on Miyertars dark elves... What could they do? To begin with, there was only a slim minority of dark elves who hadn't been corrupted. Most of them were Miyeritari. We know now that many of them had already changed their form. also noyice that the Vyshannti had spies among the represenatives at the council. It was corrupt as it could be and maybe that's probably why it took a millenia to figure who the culprits were. .... Yeah, and that's why the book doesn't mention anything of the sort, but does qualify treason, deceit, and corruption in every other instance. :rolleyes: Beyond that, here is what is really silly about this whole debate. LEoF pulls no punches. It outlines the facts. It does away with conjecture. According to the introduction of the Crown Wars Chapter, one elf subrace became so twisted by evil that its members were divorced from the light of day. That subrace is the drow. And no matter how much people might search for excuses, the reasons for this are clearly outlined. Had the Aryvandaari people been nearly as bad, LEoF would have specifically qualified it. It didn't, though, and that's why the Sun Elves are still around; and it's why the rest of the surface Elves, who apparently were powerful enough to banish one subrace, chose to punish only their leaders. |
| Prince Indirian04-25-07, 11:12 PM | - -Do you happen to know who that quote can be attributed to? No sorry, several people (wrongly) have had that quote attributed to them, such as Samuel Johnsson. The Ilythiiri were invested in demonic powers, though. That's a huge difference. And you are sure France and England didn't do that as well...;) No, honestly, knowing the middle ages, the french probably told the peasant that Englishmen worshipped Satan etc. Such accusations were common, look what happened to the Templars...Bahomet or whatever Because opposing the Vyshaan and staying away from demons and evil deities should not be mutually exclusive. The Ilythiir's decision to take this route is their damning moment. Yep, Miyertar didn't go that far and they certainly had the option... What are the tenets of the Seldarine, and how does an LN or LG alignment conflict with them? LAWFUL...besides the Aryvandaar/Vyshaan surely did some evil acts..so um. What people seem to forget is that every elf is answerable for his or her actions. Especially considering the fact that elves as whole are Chaotic (sun elves are complex in that maner, since they are more lawful than chaotic imho). For example a Seldarine Cleric that commits evil acts will LOSE his POWERS (due to loss of appropriate alignment). Doing the biddings of evil rulers are enough, thus making Illithyr at least somewhat responsible. How so? You can't use the cited example (pogrom) to corelate to an opposite where the rest are concerned. Coming off of the verdict of the Elven Court, it's somewhat unrealistic to assume that only the wizards and high magi were overwhelmingly opposed to the Vyshaan (given that only Gilthas' sons and brothers were trusted/spared). As I said before you are saying something that clearly wasn't there. High mages whom were not his family yet still loyal could very well be spared. As a matter of facts it's says only those that stood against him and that he counted on his kid to protect them. THAT does not imply that all were killed regardless of whether or not they supported him. There's a difference between trading partners and logistical capabilities. To begin with, nothing says that the trade in any way had anything to do with Aryvandaar's war-fighting ability. The accompanying text would hardly have qualified the premise as "weak" had that ally been meaningful to the war. Sure, but a nation at war needs all the resources she can get. For example lets say the food was exported, guess were that food went ? Even if all of it went to the civilians of Aryvandaar that would mean Aryvandaars self-produced food could go directly to army. Either way attacking it would likely do some harm to Aryvandaar, which is reason enough. the question at hand is though if it did more to harm Illithyr, which I think it did. Actually, it's more than a tad bit harsh. It's anathema by Seldarine consideration--something reinforced by the fact that the remainder of the surface nations were collectively horrified/disgusted by the Ilythiiri's actions but not by the Aryvandaari's actions. It wasn't a matter of racia bias, either, given that they also banded to defeat the latter. True but they didn't know Aryvandaar was behind DD... Prominence is the key word here, and nothing above disputes the cited canon material. The accompanying text only paints a grimmer picture for the Ilythiiri, I'm afraid. But until 11,500 she lacked a loyal high clan to support her... Is that not what I stated? Is that not what was in LEoF? Because death is worse. The banishing, along with Eilistraee, afforded the possibility of redemption and return. Many have done so. More will continue to do so, assuming Eilistraee doesn't bite it. Hm...this sounds as quite a poor excuse, considering the fact that innocents were punished. |
| Prince Indirian04-26-07, 12:05 AM | Nope, the text is pretty clear, I think: "Giilvas Vyshaan ordered the murder of all the wizards and high magi who stood against him, counting only on his ... sons and brothers to protect the clan." Sorry, but I am not finding the ONLY part in my copy, could look again. By the way my source is LEOF, Lost Empire of Faerun, under the the Fifth Crown War: Aryvandaars fall. As I said before it doesn't say he killed those that were loyal but not of the Vyshannti clan. He might as well kill all the Battle Mages in his (loyal) army then...:rolleyes: I hope you get my point. Example you are HM and you are loyal to Vyshaan. Yet you are not Vyshaan (meaning you are not related by blood). The passage doesn't say he would have you killed since you were not against him, even though you are not his kin. Are you getting my paoint now ? I'm trying to tell you that the Crown Wars did not feature continuing, recurring battle throughout every year of their duration. First I don't remember saying that. Second of all, not even during WW1 or 2 had continous war, that still didn't stop people from supporting and fighting. Yet 200 years before people got the picture, please:rolleyes: and this is spite of the mandate. The vast majority of the survivors were evil allies of demons and worshippers of the Dark Seldarine. That just doesn't fly. Sorry , that doesn't fly. Although many of Miyertar orginal inhabitanst had fled long before the killing storm hit, inumerable innocents died horribly. Ehem, not to mention those that lived in Keltormir, etc But if you can give a me a source that says the VAST Majority of Miyertari were dead or evil I will give you that. However I get the feeling that you are talking about the Illithyr while I'm talking about Miyertari Wrong. The representatives of Aryvandaar did not even constitute a sizeable minority. Each subrace brought an equal representation, remember? That's Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Green Elves, etc. Being Sun Elf was not tantamount to being Aryvandaari. Considreing the fact that MAIN REALM of sun elves was Aryvandaar. As a matter of facts the only realm that otherwise included large numbers of Sun Elves was Shantel Otherier and guess was, that realm was part of Aryvandaar/Vyshaan Empire... Besides there is nothing in that statment which contradicts the canon, possibly the support of Aryvandaar, though. No. After the Elven Court reached its verdict, Gillvas began executing non-Vyshaan high magi and wizards within Aryvandaar. Doesn't sound like Aryvandaar was behind him to me. Look up that quote plase. Both LEOF and CEoE says he killed opposing HM and priest as well wizards... Though you have one point. As I said before (I mentioned Durothil) there were houses and clans that were Aryvandaari but opposed him. As a matter of facts that's mentioned in Cormanthyr. Though it also says Aryvandaar and Vyshaan as if both were the same...that implies something. We don't hear anything about dissent until the Mandate, besides Durothil. What could they do? To begin with, there was only a slim minority of dark elves who hadn't been corrupted. Most of them were Miyeritari. We know now that many of them had already changed their form. 1. TWO WRONGS don't do ONE RIGHT. 2 We don't know the numbers concerning dark elves, all we have is an implication that Illithyr made up the majority. Which can be anything between 51%-49% to 99%-1%. And we don't know that many changed their forms, what we do no is some did (the city in Blackstaff. It also says it altered the form of all who had not already, which could include an Illithyr demon-mage that turned himself into a demon as well as a miyertari High Mage turning himself into a dragon etc... Yeah, and that's why the book doesn't mention anything of the sort, but does qualify treason, deceit, and corruption in every other instance. :rolleyes: The book, does actually negclect a few things. Though I really like it anyways. Beyond that, here is what is really silly about this whole debate. LEoF pulls no punches. It outlines the facts. It does away with conjecture. According to the introduction of the Crown Wars Chapter, one elf subrace became so twisted by evil that its members were divorced from the light of day. That subrace is the drow. And no matter how much people might search for excuses, the reasons for this are clearly outlined. But LEOF is not the only source, all things are not as clear as you might belivie. Have you ever discussed religioun ? Had the Aryvandaari people been nearly as bad, LEoF would have specifically qualified it. It didn't, though, and that's why the Sun Elves are still around; and it's why the rest of the surface Elves, who apparently were powerful enough to banish one subrace, chose to punish only their leaders. Maybe we should include the fact that priest and High Mages of other nations were murdered by the Vyshaan for this very fact. Read the timeline in Cormanthyr Empire of the Elves, yuear 9900. As a matter of facts Illefarn whom were behind banishment in first place, SPECIFICALLY got their High Mages and Priests killed...hmm. Also put into contect that Miyertar lost their High mages, just before the Dark Disaster. Do you see an Aryvandaari pattern ? But essentially you are right, the Sun elves were not at all as corrupt as the dark elves. But also realise that the elves may vey well have lacked the power or will to banish the sun elves, especially after seeing how wrong it went. Also consider that said elves were not half as free as we might have belvied, all lands but Keltormir had been annexed occupied...that says something. Actually the most stupid that could have been done would have been to banish the Sun Elves en masse. Since that would simply drive them into the hands of the Vyshaans even more. And since the Vyshaan pretty much controlled all the realms, the others would have been doomed. The smartest thing would have been to tell them to abandon the leaders. Especially because they belived that only leaders were really rotten. |
| GothicDan04-26-07, 03:29 AM | LAWFUL...besides the Aryvandaar/Vyshaan surely did some evil acts..so um. What people seem to forget is that every elf is answerable for his or her actions. Especially considering the fact that elves as whole are Chaotic (sun elves are complex in that maner, since they are more lawful than chaotic imho). For example a Seldarine Cleric that commits evil acts will LOSE his POWERS (due to loss of appropriate alignment). Doing the biddings of evil rulers are enough, thus making Illithyr at least somewhat responsible. Can you specifically point to a quote in LEoF or Cormanthyr or the like which states or insinuates that only the Ilythiiri nobles (and not references to just 'Ilythiir' or 'Ilythiiri') were evil/worshipped evil deities? If not, then the only logical assumption would be that 'Ilythiiri' refers to Ilythiiri society as a whole. |
| GothicDan04-26-07, 04:15 AM | A few random things I notice in reading LEoF again. Meanwhile, supposedly in retaliation for Aryvandaar’s aggression against the Miyeritari, the dark elves of Ilythiir rose up and attacked their nearest enemies in the smaller kingdom of Orishaar. It's interesting that Ilythiir is the only Elven nation known as having actual enemies among other Elves before the Crown Wars. Not even Aryvandaar has any 'enemies' named. The stated premise for the conflict was weak, considering that the moon elves of Orishaar had no connection with Aryvandaar beyond a trade alliance and the Ilythiiri had little to do with the beleaguered elves of Miyeritar. Though it was initially seen as a thinly veiled excuse for the Ilythiiri to seize some land from the moon elves, this offensive continued to gain momentum and eventually escalated to become the Second Crown War. They're spelling it out in black and white that the Ilythiiri's aggresions were basically disconnected from Aryvandaar's attack on Miyeritar, and focused only on their own greed. Also interesting to note is that Orishaar was made up of MOON ELVES, who both had supported Aryvandaar up until that time (or at least not put sanctions on it) and would later have had massive reasons to be angry with the dark elves. Purportedly, the Second Campaign was an attempt by the Ilythiiri to avenge their wronged cousins in Miyeritar, which boasted the only other major enclave of dark elves on Faerûn. So, this pretty much decides the factor as to the alignments of Dark Elves during and right after the Crown Wars. Most Miyetari were killed before the Descent (they would have been the ones more likely to have been non-Evil), while many of their magically powerful survivors became Sharn (a la the Blackstaff novel). So it would be safe to conclude that the majority of Dark Elves banished were evil anyway. Ilythiir’s savage attack wiped out Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, Syòrpiir, and Orishaar, and the dark elves continued to conduct brutal raids against the elves of Keltormir for the next twelve hundred years. So, on the tally of Arvandaari and Ilythiiri military affairs: - Aryvandaar: Annexed and occupied Miyeritar via apparently standard military methods (no mention of corruption or cruelty). - Ilythiir: Wiped out 4 realms that were not stated as having any military or noble ties to Aryvandaar at all, with no stated reason other than personal greed; and made attacks against an 'allied' realm for over a millennium. One by one, the great Ilythiiri houses sought to gain the power to conquer their enemies from demonic patrons. Seeing an opportunity to subvert an entire subrace to evil, Lolth sent the balor Wendonai to Ilythiir. Wendonai successfully led House Sethomiir, the ruling house of the Ilythiiri, into darkness by favoring Geirildin, its coronal, with gifts of dark power. Other high Ilythiiri nobles sought similar patronage, some because they envied the coronal’s newfound power, others because they were determined to carve out their own kingdoms from the wreckage of the neighboring elven states. - Aryvandaar: Their ruling House is specifically said to be corrupt. - Ilythiir: Their ruling House, Sethomiir, and noble houses both great and small fall to the service of dark deities and demons. This makes up not just a ruling caste, but at the very least an entire strata of society (and the lower castes probably just didn't have access to as many resources and magical power as they did to attain such 'gifts' of depravity themselves). Guided by their demonic patrons, the Ilythiiri came to relish warfare and torture and despise elven ideals. - Aryvandaar: Doesn't have any fiendish patron yet; still no mention of malicious tactics. - Ilythiiri: They had MULTIPLE demonic patrons, relished torture (almost singularly an evil act), and wholly rejected Elven ideals. And note that it says 'the Ilythiiri,' NOT 'Ilythiiri nobles' or the like. In about –10,900 DR, the fallen solar Malkizid became the secret patron of the Vyshaantar high mages and taught them many terrible secrets of high magic. While the Second Crown War continued to rage in the south, Aryvandaar (now known as the Vyshaantar Empire) attempted to annex the sun elf and moon elf kingdom of Shantel Othreier, thus beginning the Third Crown War. Note how it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that Malkazid ONLY became the patron of the Vyshaantar high mages (those of a single House). He taught them terrible secrets of high magic - but not ones that were demonic in nature. What the Vyshaanti High Magi were taught by Malkazid was still High Magic (and thus, Elven in ideal), but most likely of just a more combative sort than usual. Also, note how they sought to annex Shantel Othreier (Sun Elven AND Moon Elven), which meant they wanted to rule it rather than completely wipe it and its inhabitants from the land (contrasting with Ilythiir's tactics). The elves of Shantel Othreier resisted Aryvandaar’s attacks for three centuries, but with the sudden, mysterious death of Ynloeth, their coronal, they finally surrendered and diplomatically joined the Vyshaantar Empire, thus ending the Third Crown War. Shantel Othreier surrendered in the end.... And diplomatically joined the Vyshaantar Empire. They were not dominated, abused, subjugated, or made vassals, but rather accepted diplomatically into the empire. In truth, the fell magic that produced it was called forth by Vyshaantar high mages and proceeded unopposed because a Vyshaantar assassination campaign had destroyed many of Miyeritar’s high mages in the months before. The Dark Disaster hung over Miyeritar like a funeral shroud for months, and when its cloying mists and bloody rains finally dissipated, the once-proud forest had been reduced to a blasted, poisonous wasteland. Although many of Miyeritar’s original inhabitants had fled long before the killing storm hit, innumerable innocents died horribly. Aha! Aryvandaari finally doing something else blatantly evil! The Dark Disaster was both evil and un-Elven, as was the assassination of Miyeritar's high mages. However, the use of Vyshaantar high mages IS up to debate, as it has been stated that Vyshaantar could refer to those of House Vyshaan or the Vyshaantar Empire as a whole. In the wake of the killing storm, the Ilythiiri turned their high magic fully to the pursuits of war, and the result was devastation on an unparalleled scale. Within four decades after the Dark Disaster, the Ilythiiri utterly destroyed the realm of Shantel Othreier—the closest outpost of Vyshaantar power. The Ilythiiri's use of destructive high magic is specifically stated to have been equal to none before it. Also, the Ilythiiri destroying 'an outpost of Vyshaantar power' - a nation that had resisted Aryvandaari occupation for three centuries, and could have been potential allies if the Ilythiiri had actually been out to battle Aryvandaar rather than gain personal power. Also note that it's yet another entire nation that Ilythiir destroyed. Refugees from the doomed kingdom of Shantel Othreier told tales of Ilythiiri atrocities that made the actions of the Aryvandaar for the past several centuries seem tame by comparison. Considering that Shantel Othereier battled both Aryvandaar AND Ilythiir, I don't see why they'd have much reason to exaggerate as to how much more despicable Ilythiir's magical atrocities were than Aryvandaar's. It is the only Elven nation that had encountered both Aryvandaar and Ilythiiri, so is the one that would perhaps be in the best position to compare the two. In the face of this savage assault, the remaining elven kingdoms gathered in a great conclave and made a decision that would haunt elvenkind forever—the Ilythiiri, or “dhaerow,” would be cast out of Corellon’s favor and divorced for all time from their brethren. The most powerful high mages and clerics of the Seldarine joined together to perform a ritual that altered the Ilythiiri’s bodies to match the corruption of their souls. Note where it says 'the remaining elven kingdoms'; these would include Aryvandaar and any other Sun Elven outposts. Since Clerics of the Seldarine must be by far and large Good in alignment, and Sun Elves tend to be the most prominent Tel'Quess Clerics, one must assume that the Sun Elves that attended were still primarily Good in alignment, or Neutral at best. There is no statement of any significant dissent among ALL of the other Elven kingdoms as to the decision: they ALL, for the most part, agreed that Ilythiir was depraved and wicked and needed to be dealt with. Also, pay attention to where it says that they were meant to specifically alter ONLY the bodies of the Ilythiiri, and NOT ALL Dark Elves. Although the conclave had intended to punish only the Ilythiiri, the ritual altered all the dark elves of Faerûn except those who had already altered their own forms. Again, only the Ilythiiri were meant to be punished, but it affected the rest, too (with the exception of those like the Sharn). Why all dark elves, and not just the Ilythiiri, were transformed into drow remains one of the enduring mysteries of the Descent. Some of the more humble elf theologians believe it was an unintended consequence of the sort that always seems to occur when the Fair Folk overreach themselves in the application of high magic. In their eyes, the disastrous sundering of Evermeet from Faerûn, the Dark Disaster, and the destruction of Jhaamdath fall into that same category. As has been stated, the ritual's affecting ALL Dark Elves was an accident that happened for unknown reasons. Much to their surprise, Evermeet had already been an elven homeland for quite some time. Not even the wild elves native to the island could say how long they had been here. Ultimately, the elves decided that the highest houses of Aryvandaar would settle the isle and do their best to “civilize” it until a coronal could arrive to claim governance over it. So, the Elves, 100 drawn from each subrace other than the Drow, at Elven Court, decided this at a meeting that was called directly by Corellon himself. And they - sun elves, moon elves, wild elves, avariels all - chose the highest houses of Aryvandaar to settle their sacred haven-isle. Elaine's Evermeet novel depicts one of the main Sun Elven leaders who goes to settle Evermeet as being haughty and arrogant, but hardly evil, and soon enough, with the council of his moon elven high mage consort, grows more good-hearted. Also, looking through the Evermeet sourcebook, I bet you'll be hard pressed to find any resident Sun Elven Houses that have any significant number of Evil members in it. Elven Houses just don't 'disappear,' especially not in Evermeet, where they retire to remain as long as possible in utter peace. So, these facts coupled together pretty much solidify the fact that the Aryvandaari, even the highest noble houses, were NOT evil. |
| GothicDan04-26-07, 04:27 AM | Considreing the fact that MAIN REALM of sun elves was Aryvandaar. As a matter of facts the only realm that otherwise included large numbers of Sun Elves was Shantel Otherier and guess was, that realm was part of Aryvandaar/Vyshaan Empire... From LEoF: About –1100 DR, the moon elf and sun elf citizens of Illefarn abandoned their kingdom and traveled west to Evermeet. Also, there's a question as to the inhabitants of the named cities that Ilythiiri destroyed utterly. |
| GothicDan04-26-07, 04:27 AM | EDIT: Somehow double posted. |
| Stigger04-26-07, 04:56 PM | With that interpretation of the facts, sure... but there are other interpretations of those facts as well. From LEoF as well: -11,500 Thearnytaar and Eiellur declare war on Ilythiir and attempt to prevent the Ilythiiri from advancing north. Lolth sends the balor lord Wendonai to seduce a high Ilythiiri clan into her service. The church of Lolth rises to prominence That pretty much says that prior to that date, the church of Lolth did not control a major clan and were peripheral to that point. Also note who were the aggressors mentioned there... presumably due to the order of the mentions the declaration of war came before the arrival of Wendonai, possibly a call for aid against two aggressive nations seeking to invade them at what could very well be Aryvandaars request, a mere 200 years after they launched their strikes on Orishaar. In reference to the Evermeet sourcebook... probably not, but I seem to recall a significant majority of them being mentioned in C:EotE under the nobility, which is a more recent source, and closer to the time period we're discussing. Though really, my point ultimately is that the material in LEoF is open to some serious interpretation and isn't quite as cut and dried as some of you seem to think. It can of course be interpreted with a pro-gold elf view, as Dan seems to espouse, unsurprisingly, it can be interpreted with a pro-dark elf view, as I'm currently defending, or you can come at it from some other perspective... now we all know that the Descent is a foregone conclusion and that the Gold elves weren't punished for what the Vyshaan did, and that today the Gold elves are considered paragons of elveness... in their own eyes at least, with some measure of evidence to back up that claim. But that's now, the Crown Wars were then, to paraphrase a bit. None of us really has any clue what any of the subraces were really like during the period leading up to and during the Crown Wars, and have only a small amount of information and modern references to go off of. That gives any perspective a great deal of leeway to go off of... which I suspect is intentional on the developers part to give DMs more freedom to interpret history the way they want the world to have. ;) |
| Prince Indirian04-26-07, 05:55 PM | Can you specifically point to a quote in LEoF or Cormanthyr or the like which states or insinuates that only the Ilythiiri nobles (and not references to just 'Ilythiir' or 'Ilythiiri') were evil/worshipped evil deities? If not, then the only logical assumption would be that 'Ilythiiri' refers to Ilythiiri society as a whole. How did you from that quote come the conclusion that I said anything likr that ? I was talking about clerics (and others) being answerable for the actions, which BOED also agrees on. No, to your point. Actually there are in fact most quotes are about houses and high clans converting to other patrons, we get little knowledge about the non-nobles. SAmt thing with Aryvandaar somtimes we read Aryvandaar otherwise we read Vyshann. I advise you to read the Second Crown war in LEOF. It's all about various houses and clans etc...sure it says Illithyr in at least on case. But we have several cases where they mention Aryvandaar and not Vyshaan, and that's after the Vyshans came to power. Also note that I have never denied the evil that Illithyr did, what I am saying is that the Aryvandaari do have some guilt... |
| Philalexandros04-26-07, 06:05 PM | That pretty much says that prior to that date, the church of Lolth did not control a major clan and were peripheral to that point. Actually... you injected the words "major" and "peripheral" there. ;) We know that several Ilythiiri houses worshipped Ghaunadur and Lolth for about 6,500 years prior. We also know is that, comes -11,500, Lolth's church comes into prominence. The idea that it was merely peripheral prior to this is somewhat unrealistic; there had to be a solid base for it to suddenly become the official religion. As it turns out, there was such a base. Preceding the statement about House Sethomiir (the ruling House's conversion by Wendonai), we see that: "One by one, the great Ilythiiri houses sought to gain the power to conquer their enemies from demonic patrons." Sounds like a pretty solid to me. :) Also note who were the aggressors mentioned there... presumably due to the order of the mentions the declaration of war came before the arrival of Wendonai, possibly a call for aid against two aggressive nations seeking to invade them at what could very well be Aryvandaars request, a mere 200 years after they launched their strikes on Orishaar. Unfortunately, the text disagrees with you here. The text states that Ilythiir attacked. The declaration for war came after Syorpiir was destroyed wholesale, when Ilythiir had made itself a clear and present danger. Neither Syorpiir nor the other three nations Ilythiir fights in the Second Crown War have ANY stated affilition with Aryvandaar. Given that LEoF qualifies even a weak premise for war, I can't see how you can surmise that any sort of alliance existed between the nations Ilythiir attacked and Aryvandaar. Ack! This was meant for Dan, wasn't it, Stigger? Apologies if so. |
| Prince Indirian04-26-07, 06:18 PM | From LEoF: Prince Indirian Considreing the fact that MAIN REALM of sun elves was Aryvandaar. As a matter of facts the only realm that otherwise included large numbers of Sun Elves was Shantel Otherier and guess was, that realm was part of Aryvandaar/Vyshaan Empire... From LEoF: About –1100 DR, the moon elf and sun elf citizens of Illefarn abandoned their kingdom and traveled west to Evermeet. Also, there's a question as to the inhabitants of the named cities that Ilythiiri destroyed utterly. This is where you a made a mistake, I was concerning the Council that judged the Vyshanti as evil. At THAT TIME AND PLACE, the VAST majority of sun elves came from these two kingdoms (Aryvandaar and Shantel). Between the Fifth Crown War (when council came to the conclusion that the Vyshaan clan är were corrupted) and the -1100 DR is 8100 years. So yes Illefarn can very well have gained a immigration of sun elves, to the point that green elves became a minority, AFTER the Crown Wars. When Illefarn was founded it was a GREEN elven kingdom. Sure it likely had member of other subraces, but the majority were green elves, during the Crown War. Also note that at some point during the last Crown War Illefarn was conquered by the Vyshaan Empire Also note that accprding to the timeline in LEOF, year 9800 Vyshann Empire colonised Evermeet, not Aryvandaar, unless you consider them to be the same. Though in Evermeet and Durothil entry in Cormanthy we hear that said family fled from Aryvandaar during the Crown War. Durothil were undoubtly among the higher houses of Aryvandaar/Vyshaan Empire. |
| Stigger04-26-07, 08:08 PM | Actually... you injected the words "major" and "peripheral" there. ;) We know that several Ilythiiri houses worshipped Ghaunadur and Lolth for about 6,500 years prior. We also know is that, comes -11,500, Lolth's church comes into prominence. The idea that it was merely peripheral prior to this is somewhat unrealistic; there had to be a solid base for it to suddenly become the official religion. As it turns out, there was such a base. Preceding the statement about House Sethomiir (the ruling House's conversion by Wendonai), we see that: "One by one, the great Ilythiiri houses sought to gain the power to conquer their enemies from demonic patrons." Sounds like a pretty solid to me. :) True, I did inject the word 'major' in there. I should have used the word 'high', but I don't quite see how that makes much of a difference to the point... page 52 of the timeline by the way on that one, first column, -11,500 entry. If they hadn't managed to corrupt a 'high' clan to their service yet, that sounds like a good justification for the word peripheral. Unless you're saying that if one minor noble family of Waterdeep worships Bane, its a predominant faith in the City... And she sent Wendonai in to Ilythiir precisely for the point of getting them into her grip. It makes a point of that in the timeline, and reading the material on page 54 only reinforces that prior to his arrival, they didn't practice tainted magic or worhip the anti-Seldarine (I hate that phrase... really wish they had come up with something a lot less cheesy for it) prior to his arrival. Up to then they were ferocious and savage, and he helped tip them over the edge. And it said 'Some Ilythiiri houses...', not 'several', as you injected up there. That could mean as few as two of them... ;) Unfortunately, the text disagrees with you here. The text states that Ilythiir attacked. The declaration for war came after Syorpiir was destroyed wholesale, when Ilythiir had made itself a clear and present danger. Neither Syorpiir nor the other three nations Ilythiir fights in the Second Crown War have ANY stated affilition with Aryvandaar. Given that LEoF qualifies even a weak premise for war, I can't see how you can surmise that any sort of alliance existed between the nations Ilythiir attacked and Aryvandaar. Ack! This was meant for Dan, wasn't it, Stigger? Apologies if so. Problem there is its never stated one way or another how Syorpiir was destroyed. It could very well have been accidental, a forest fire that got out of control. We do not know the facts surrounding it, beyond that it happened, and that in some manner the Ilythiiri were responsible, but not much more. Open to a lot of interpretation there. LEoF also point blank says that the claiming of Miyeritars throne was an excuse on the part of the Vyshaan. We know that Ilythiir declared war on Orishaar. We also know that Syorpiir got destroyed in the process somehow, but not how. At that point the other two declare war on Ilythiir. We have no idea if they were acting as proxies for Aryvandaar or simply because Ilythiir showed itself to be a clear and present danger. Nothing is said on that point, so all we know is that Thearnytaar and Eiellur were the aggressors and that they lost after attempting to invade Ilythiir. Though as a note, its getting a little confusing with this dual thread arguement. Might be wise to move it to one thread or the other... probably better on the pre-descent thread really. |
| Philalexandros04-26-07, 09:08 PM | LAWFUL...besides the Aryvandaar/Vyshaan surely did some evil acts..so um. No, really, what about the Seldarine makes them incompatible with someone of Lawful alignment? The Vyshaan committed evil, but the populace as a whole is never defined as such by the canon. What people seem to forget is that every elf is answerable for his or her actions. Especially considering the fact that elves as whole are Chaotic (sun elves are complex in that maner, since they are more lawful than chaotic imho). According to?... The fact of the matter is that Faerunian elves have been different from standard D&D (CG) elves for some time. They differ biologically (Faerunian elves are much taller), they differ culturally, and they differ in terms of alignment as well. As I said before you are saying something that clearly wasn't there. High mages whom were not his family yet still loyal could very well be spared. The text points out that only his children and brothers could be trusted. It also qualifies him as insane and as standing against the Seldarine themselves. Given those two tidbits, I'd say that any vagueness in the text can reasonably be pointed toward the totality of the pogrom, and not just a partial carrying-out. As a matter of facts it's says only those that stood against him and that he counted on his kid to protect them. Kids and brethren, thank you. ;) THAT does not imply that all were killed regardless of whether or not they supported him. So what did he do? Fire them? "I'm sorry, Aenuur Sunstride... You're not kin, I'm insane, and Corellon's given me a death sentence. I'm going to have to let you go. Please don't stand against me like all these other high magi and wizards I'm assasinating." What's the alternative? That he couldn't trust them to not kill him but he somehow COULD trust them to fight his war for him? Sure, but a nation at war needs all the resources she can get. For example lets say the food was exported, guess were that food went ? Even if all of it went to the civilians of Aryvandaar that would mean Aryvandaars self-produced food could go directly to army. Either way attacking it would likely do some harm to Aryvandaar, which is reason enough. the question at hand is though if it did more to harm Illithyr, which I think it did. All of this would be valid if the canon text did not already qualify the Orishaar as enemies of the Ilythiiri and the entire expedition as a thinly veiled attempt to pull a land-grab. But until 11,500 she lacked a loyal high clan to support her... Is that not what I stated? Is that not what was in LEoF? No, it states that she didn't have the royal clan specifically. It does state that she had several houses over thousands of years, and that in the centuries prior to Wendonai, house after house took up demonic practices. And yes, innocents were punished. It was a mistake though, and this is stated implicitly. |
| Philalexandros04-26-07, 09:21 PM | If they hadn't managed to corrupt a 'high' clan to their service yet, that sounds like a good justification for the word peripheral. Unless you're saying that if one minor noble family of Waterdeep worships Bane, its a predominant faith in the City... First of all, we're talking about much more than one house. We know that several houses had been worshipping Ghaunadaur and Lolth for thousands of years. You can try to assume that this level of worship remained flat and static for 6,500 years until the Second Crown War began, but that just creates the unrealistic premise of the Dark Elves inexplicably converting to demonic alliances at just that time, having never been corrupted before. And she sent Wendonai in to Ilythiir precisely for the point of getting them into her grip. It makes a point of that in the timeline, and reading the material on page 54 only reinforces that prior to his arrival, they didn't practice tainted magic or worhip the anti-Seldarine (I hate that phrase... really wish they had come up with something a lot less cheesy for it) prior to his arrival. Up to then they were ferocious and savage, and he helped tip them over the edge. No, that's incorrect. In that very same paragraph, it specifically states that "one by one, the great Ilythiiri houses" sought demonic patronage. The period covered is the Second Crown Wars period... 200 years by the time Wendonai showed up. "Some" was used for Ghaunadaur. "Others" was used for Lolth in the same line. At a minimum, we're talking 4, and I really doubt they were taking about pairs at time. ;) [quote]Problem there is its never stated one way or another how Syorpiir was destroyed. It could very well have been accidental, a forest fire that got out of control. We do not know the facts surrounding it, beyond that it happened, and that in some manner the Ilythiiri were responsible, but not much more. Open to a lot of interpretation there. Please don't go there, Stigger. This is too much. The date line of "The Ilythiiri burn Syorpiir to the ground" is followed by expanding text that cites a "savage attack." The Ilythiiri didn't "savagely" let their campfires unattended for Smokey the Bear to cry about later. We also know that Syorpiir got destroyed in the process somehow, but not how. Yes we do. See above. At that point the other two declare war on Ilythiir. We have no idea if they were acting as proxies for Aryvandaar or simply because Ilythiir showed itself to be a clear and present danger. Again, this is poor conjecture. LEoF specifically cites corruption, deception, weak premises, and alliances. You think they'd mention Orishaar as nothing but a trading partner but neglect to mention that two other nations were acting as proxy for Aryvandaar? The Keltormir were even referred to as "erstwhile brethren" of the Ilythiir, for cripes sake! :D Nothing is said on that point, so all we know is that Thearnytaar and Eiellur were the aggressors and that they lost after attempting to invade Ilythiir. Until that conflict, Ilythiir and Aryvandaar had been the only aggressor states. Thearnytaar and Eieluur had just watched Syorpiir get destroyed. Yeah, Ilythiir was a danger. Though as a note, its getting a little confusing with this dual thread arguement. Might be wise to move it to one thread or the other... probably better on the pre-descent thread really. Sounds good. Ready, ready, break! :D |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 12:42 AM | Yes, we really need to get back to the topic in THIS thread, which is the novel Blackstaff You know, the one where a decendent of surface Elves leads a high-magic ritual, attended by only 'light' Elves and other races, to bring back a small piece of the wonderful DARK Elven kingdom of Miyeritar, "The center of Elven Art and High magic on Faerûn". However, the sneaky Gold Elves sabotaged the ritual in the end, and only some skinny gnomes and horse-people were brought back from that great and mighty kingdom. Oh... and some more dirty, filthy Gold and Silver Elves, who according to canon, NEVER EVER LIVED THERE!!! If I know the Gold Elves and that elf-lover Khelben <spit>, they probably just brought a bunch of Vyshaan DemonFey forward in time to wreak more havok amongst the poor deluded 'other races'. I wonder who they're gonna pin it on this time, the Halflings? :waits: See... so let's stop all this senseless arguiing and discuss this book, shall we? ;) |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 01:16 AM | It can of course be interpreted with a pro-gold elf view, as Dan seems to espouse, unsurprisingly, How is me going quote by quote through LEoF and comparing Ilythiir and Aryvandaar, and comparing information with other canon sources, pro-Gold Elf? |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 01:18 AM | Oh... and some more dirty, filthy Gold and Silver Elves, who according to canon, NEVER EVER LIVED THERE!!! Uh. Miyeritar was a Dark ElvenWood Elven realm, which meant that the Dark Elves/Wood Elves were the royalty and the majority (at least) of the nobility. That doesn't mean Elves of other subraces didn't live there. In fact, considering it bordered Aryvandaar, it would make sense for them to be some cross-pollinization along the borders. Oh... and some more dirty, filthy Gold and Silver Elves, who according to canon, NEVER EVER LIVED THERE!!! And, technically, that's still banned. ;) |
| Prince Indirian04-27-07, 03:05 AM | No, really, what about the Seldarine makes them incompatible with someone of Lawful alignment? The Vyshaan committed evil, but the populace as a whole is never defined as such by the canon. The Seldarine are chaotic...as cleric you have to be 2 steps within...I am not sure if that's still the case for worshippers, it used o be at least. I tried explaining why I said why some evil have been done. If you follow the evil orders of the evil matron mother, well then you are evil. But this is MY opinion. No that I differ from canon in this case if canon thinks otherwise... According to?... The fact of the matter is that Faerunian elves have been different from standard D&D (CG) elves for some time. They differ biologically (Faerunian elves are much taller), they differ culturally, and they differ in terms of alignment as well. Yes but unless it's actually specified they are the same. For instance it is mentioned in the FRCS that FR elves ARE taller. Same thing goes for their chaotic bent. Also note that the Deities mirror the people in alignment, hence drow are mostly evil... Also if you read the PHB and BOED, the alignments tells us how evil/good are defined and what actions are evil/good. So from a game point it would be evil. The text points out that only his children and brothers could be trusted. It also qualifies him as insane and as standing against the Seldarine themselves. Given those two tidbits, I'd say that any vagueness in the text can reasonably be pointed toward the totality of the pogrom, and not just a partial carrying-out. If so why not state it ? It says he killed those who stood against him. Not those that didn't stand against him. Sure he only trusted his family so what ? Maybe he didn't trust his soldiers either (even though they were described as loyal), should we then ASSume (:P ) that he killed soldiers as well (wizards are quite often soldiers as well) ? Also in the Cormanthyr timeline tells us he persecuted High Mages and Clerics of Illefarn after conquering Illefarn as well others. Here let me quote Aryvandaar’s covert persecution of High Mages and priests begins, as they attempt to destroy or control any who might somehow force their descent as they did the drow. While not destroyed utterly, Illefarn & its colony in the Llewyrrwood is annexed by Aryvandaar as its nobility of priests and High Mages died under the persecution of the increasingly-crazed Coronal Giilvas Vyshaan. Many elves of both lands flee to the remnants of Shantel Othreier. Notice that they say Aryvandaar and not Vyshaan...hmm Kids and brethren, thank you. ;) Sure a typo...:embarrass So what did he do? Fire them? "I'm sorry, Aenuur Sunstride... You're not kin, I'm insane, and Corellon's given me a death sentence. I'm going to have to let you go. Please don't stand against me like all these other high magi and wizards I'm assasinating." You still didn't get the example did you (by the way I see you play Warcraft:D ) ? He killed the High Mages that were opposing him not those that didn't, as you are trying to claim without actual prove of it. If Aenuur was enemy, Aenuur would have been killed. If Aenuur was not an enemy, Aenuur would not be dead, because the Coronal killed those that stood in his way. Or as Cormanthyr said, "destroy or control" Now, if all the High Mages and Wizards whom were non-Vyshaan (by blood) were opposing him, yes then, he would have had them killed. Why ? Because it says all those that stood against him were killed. What's the alternative? That he couldn't trust them to not kill him but he somehow COULD trust them to fight his war for him? Sadam Insane did trust anybody (the dude had his son-in-laws executed), yet he still had them fight his war...:rolleyes: Hitler didn't trust (assuming he had any trust for anybody, which I think he had) much of his staff, officers etc (he had a few attempts on his life) but he still had them fight his war. Some people just follow orders. They might not like the leader, as a matter of facts they might hate him, but still follow him. This is especially common among evil people (in DnD , FR, Eberron etc). And frankly put the High Mages that followed him probably were quite evil as was. Second of all, how could he then trust his officers to wage his wars ? A little quote here from Cormanthyr While the Vyshaan compelled great loyalty among their troops and supporters, they could not hope to stand against the combined power of all the other elves, backed as they were by Corellon’s mandate. The Fifth Crown War lasted only 200 years before the madness of the Vyshaan compelled even their most fervent followers to abandon them before all the elves lay dead at their hands. They had some support from the the people didn't they ? After all it took 200 years after the supposed divine mandate to figure out the were evil and mad ? Hm...:rolleyes: Most evil leaders don't trust the people in their mindst, but as long as they are useful, they are usually allowed to live... All of this would be valid if the canon text did not already qualify the Orishaar as enemies of the Ilythiiri and the entire expedition as a thinly veiled attempt to pull a land-grab. Actually it says it was seen as such. That doesn't mean it was. Also the timeline (in LEoF) lists Orishaar as an ally. Cormanthyr lists it as a major trade ally. Also observe that he had not fallen into corruption yet. Regardless of the reasons for attacking they were not worse than that of Aryvandaar. Maybe even less, since Orishaar had a trade alliance and from war point of view that's enough. IMHO No, it states that she didn't have the royal clan specifically. It does state that she had several houses over thousands of years, and that in the centuries prior to Wendonai, house after house took up demonic practices. 1.Some houses, some 2. It says High Illithyr clan. At least the timline does. Now if you read entry under the Second Crown war, you find the ruling clan, however it also notes somthing interesting. That other "high Illithyr nobles sought similiar patronage". These others are likely the High clans spoken of. But Wendonay with his INT score figured why not take the ruling clan while I am it. Note that entry doesn't say royal clan, it says high clan. Just like there high houses/clans in Aryvandaar that were not Vyshann. But the best is here : Seeing an opportunity to subvert an entire subrace to evil, Lloth sent the balor Wendonai to Illithyr So wait, she didn't see this opportunity untill the second crown war ?:cool: hmm... Though you are right about one thing, during the SECOND crown war one by one the GREAT houses sought demonic patrons...until then it must have been quite rare. Why would it otherwise fall under the Second Crown war entry ? And yes, innocents were punished. It was a mistake though, and this is stated implicitly. Yep, but one that could have been fixed, if there's a will there as way. At least that how Good folks usually think. Especially considering the fact the is a spell to reverse this in Cormanthyr Empire of the elves...:rolleyes: |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 03:27 AM | Notice that they say Aryvandaar and not Vyshaan...hmm Yes, but the rest of that paragraph makes it clear that it was the agents of Gilvas Vyshaan, who were indeed Aryvandaari, that did the persecuting. The Seldarine are chaotic...as cleric you have to be 2 steps within...I am not sure if that's still the case for worshippers, it used o be at least. This is a new ruling. In previous editions, Feywardens could be ANY Good, which would make sense since there has been both a tradition of Sun Elves tending towards Law and also being recognized as the foremost clerics of Corellon. There's been no explicit description of the alignments of various races in FR in 3E. However, in 2E, the Ar'Tel'Quessir were referred to as roughly analogous to the Silvanesti of Krynn, who have been stated in the DLCS to tend to be Lawful Good. Anyway, the point is, regardless of the 1-step rule, Corellon has no problem with Lawful Priests, since it's pretty obvious that not much attention was given in F&P to individualizing the characters of non-human deities. Thus, the default 1-step rule was applied, without looking at the actual lore of previous editions (ANY good priests); but this wouldn't fit with the other lore stated in both editions about Sun Elves. Actually it says it was seen as such. That doesn't mean it was. Also the timeline (in LEoF) lists Orishaar as an ally. Cormanthyr lists it as a major trade ally. Also observe that he had not fallen into corruption yet. Regardless of the reasons for attacking they were not worse than that of Aryvandaar. Maybe even less, since Orishaar had a trade alliance and from war point of view that's enough. IMHO As has been stated, multiple times, the Orishaar were already enemies of Ilythiir before Aryvandaar ever made aggressive motions towards Miyeritar. NOT rivals, but outright enemies, which implies a level of aggression. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 03:37 AM | Another thing to note is that Lolth personally approached one of the powerful rulers of Ilythiir - the wizard Ka'Narlist - in the Evermeet novel and took him under her wing before the whole Vyshaanti business. Also note that this city was depicted as being rather blatantly corrupted and evil even before the founding of Aryvandaar. |
| Krash04-27-07, 03:53 AM | The difference can be encapsulated in a single observation: "sentient sacrifice as part of religious observance". The Ilythiiri deserved what they got. -- George Krashos |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 04:49 AM | Nasty Dark Elfses! |
| Stigger04-27-07, 09:03 AM | Nevermind, thought better of that last post of mine. Suffice to say, I'm not agreeing too much with Krash there, but I've no real wish to get into that arguement. |
| Karsus the Mad04-27-07, 11:50 AM | Note how it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that Malkazid ONLY became the patron of the Vyshaantar high mages (those of a single House). He taught them terrible secrets of high magic - but not ones that were demonic in nature. What the Vyshaanti High Magi were taught by Malkazid was still High Magic (and thus, Elven in ideal), but most likely of just a more combative sort than usual. As I've pointed out before, Vyshaantar was the name given to Aryvandaar after their rise to empire. Vyshaanti is the denotation for the Vyshaan clan specifically. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 12:01 PM | Hence my point that all of this is open to interpretation... you can look at it pro-gold elf, as in the best possible light to make the average gold elf look less evil, or in a pro-dark elf view, with much the same intent, or you can look at it 'objectively' (I have problems with that word, since I don't think its particularly applicable, since with the foregone conclusion that the Ilythiiri fall, much of the mitigating circumstances they might have as tragic figures gets lost since their modern actions color the view of events up to their fall) and try to see both sides as messed up and just quibble over the degree of that. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 03:48 PM | As I've pointed out before, Vyshaantar was the name given to Aryvandaar after their rise to empire. Vyshaanti is the denotation for the Vyshaan clan specifically. I don't know. I didn't see anything but references to 'Vyshaantar' in the timeline, even before Aryvandaar became known as the Vyshaantar Empire. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 03:51 PM | or you can look at it 'objectively' (I have problems with that word, since I don't think its particularly applicable, since with the foregone conclusion that the Ilythiiri fall, much of the mitigating circumstances they might have as tragic figures gets lost since their modern actions color the view of events up to their fall) and try to see both sides as messed up and just quibble over the degree of that. That's what I thought me and Phil were trying to do. I may like the Sun Elves, sure, but I'll be the first one to admit their 'faults.' I'm Lawful Neutral, so I'm not terribly interested in the fact that they must be presented as 'Good' all of the time. I pride myself on my ability to step back and be objective concerning such discussions (and have been prided on it both personally and academically). While that hardly ensures my objectivity, it certainly makes me less likely to believe others who are clearly being subjective when they try to say I'm the one being subjective. |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 04:39 PM | You guys? Objective? :rofl: Why did the Illythiir consider the Orishar their enemies? It never explains that, does it? Since the Dark Elves were natives (along with their allies, the Sylvan), and the other Elves ALL interlopers, I could understand this sentiment on their part. The American Indians didn't like US either, and in the end they stooped to brutal tactics and killed women and children. We didn't make them move underground, just herded them into 'reservations'. A proud but primitive people, fighting desperately to retain their lands and their honor. Thats ALL I see. ;) |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 04:50 PM | Ilythiir didn't 'stoop to brutal tactics in the end.' It's clearly spelled out in LEoF. They started to fall to corruption BEFORE the Crown Wars, and then Wendonai corrupted the royal family, and out of ENVY other High Houses started to seek demonic patronage as well. At this point, this is no longer a discussion, so much as as it's a non-comedic parody of a debate. I'm sorry, Markus, but personally I'm going to have to stop replying to you on this topic. At this point, it's less about differing opinions and more like we were reading the same thing and trying to interpret them into two entirely different languages. It's getting us nowhere. PS: Emoticons still make me irrationally angry. |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 04:55 PM | I'm sorry, Markus, but personally I'm going to have to stop replying to you on this topic. At this point, it's less about differing opinions and more like we were reading the same thing and trying to interpret them into two entirely different languages. It's getting us nowhere.Exactly what I've been trying to say for the last five pages in that other thread; no two people are going to come away from that and see the same thing. PS: Emoticons still make me irrationally angry.:rofl: |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 05:16 PM | Exactly what I've been trying to say for the last five pages in that other thread; no two people are going to come away from that and see the same thing. No, this is a unique case. In all of my years of online debating, as well as doing some real life debating on the varsity debate team, I've never seen any two people interpretting the single thing so vastly differently that was written in fairly concise English. This doesn't include things like the Bible or other religious, spiritual, or philosophical texts. Seriously, this has frustrated me in a way that nothing on these boards ever has before. It feels less to me like others are reading the same text and more like they're missing chunks out of a book that paraphrased the original text. Actually, I personally thought that LEoF originally made the Sun Elves seem MORE corrupt overall. It was Phil himself, acting as an impartial party, who pointed out specific passages to me that made me seem otherwise. So I really can't see how I can be pro-Gold Elf (which implies it's a state of being more than a opinion derived from any facts), since my original opinion was almost the opposite of what it is now. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 05:27 PM | Sorry you're getting frustrated Dan, really, but I still see a lot of gray left open in LEoF concerning the Ilythiiri. Which is precisely how it should be really... which has been my point pretty much throughout this whole thing. I would disagree with the concise part of its writing obviously, since I, obviously, can find a lot of room to maneuver with it. It depends on how one chooses to interpret things, simple as that. If you're going with a conservative interpretation, it is pretty black and white, I'll grant you that much. If you're going with a liberal interpretation, it's very gray. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 05:32 PM | Stigger, I was having much less of a 'problem' with you than I was Markus. You were doing exactly what you said - a liberal interpretation. Phil and I were doing more conservative ones, which I feel is best if trying to only discuss what is specifically canon. Markus, however, was basically saying that we were Pro-Gold Elf regardless of actual written facts - which is very different than talking about possible interpretations. His ignoring, or perhaps simply answering in ways that were so disconnected from, our original points, his flippancy, and his seemingly blatant lack of objectivity (perhaps as a direct result of the previous two), were much (and I expect will always be) more irritating, to me. That's just not how formal debate in Western society goes (for good reason). Mind you, I still think that LEoF was written in a much more 'this is the way things are' manner than previous histories on the subject, which is WotC's style. I much preferred Cormanthyr's take on things, overall, which seemed a little more enigmatic, with no dates given. If that had been the case, I could have argued more from an opinion point of view, rather than a purely 'canon says this happened at this point' way. But, sadly, that's not how LEoF seems to have been written, so to me it seems disingenuous to try to interpret it in such a matter. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 05:57 PM | Well, you are a pro-gold elf type... you've said as much on several occassions... :tongue: Seriously though, I don't have the same view on LEoF. I see tons of ambiguity in there... actually, it left me with more questions that C:EotE did. Sure it says what happened when, but the whys of it are even more puzzling to me than the whens. By broaching some of those whys in a few limited instances, it raised the problem of other things not having much definition. We have a description of Ilythiir as savage... but why were they savage? What did they do to deserve that reputation? From who's perspective? What led them to that point? Sorry, but the language there is vague enough for me to find a lot of reasons to question some of the things you and Phil are taking for granted. The fact that we were quibbling over the definition of the word 'Some' should make that painfully obvious. It could mean just two... Phil disagrees, as you probably do... but neither one of us really knows what some actually means there, or how extensive a relationship it implies to Ilythiiri society as a whole. My read is that Wendonai was sent in to widen what wasn't a major presence, since it hadn't reached the highest echelons in society. The timeline seems to round things to the nearest 50 year period, and when it says he corrupted them one by one, we have no real idea how long that effort took. 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? Who knows... its never stated one way or another. Knowing would provide us with some idea how corrupted they Ilythiiri were up to that point, but all we have is a blanket statement that they were eventually corrupted with no sense of scale. We can make inferences about that scale, but the fact of the matter is that none of us really know precisely how long it took, beyond a very general timeframe that doesn't tell us all that much. That's just one of the questions I see raised by LEoF, among many... |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 06:25 PM | But Cormanthyr didn't explain any more "why's" than LEoF did, and it left out or summarized many of the events which LEoF specifically talked about, on both sides of the argument. So how is LEoF more ambiguous? Is it, perhaps, simply your blinding hatred for older products? ;) As to being Pro-Gold Elf... I like them. It doesn't mean that I skew facts to in some way represent them otherwise. I know nobody believes that, but science has taught me terrible things can happen if you twist the truth of things. |
| Lord Karsus04-27-07, 06:40 PM | As to being Pro-Gold Elf... I like them. It doesn't mean that I skew facts to in some way represent them otherwise. I know nobody believes that, but science has taught me terrible things can happen if you twist the truth of things. -Nationalistic Japanese and Germans have pride in their respective countries, but don't (usually) agree with, or make excuses for what those two states did during the Second World War. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 06:45 PM | The older 2e stuff presented it as here it is, no discussion really, just plop the basic events right into the lap. The 3e stuff gives you some insights into the actual events beyond a simple timeline. And I'm sure you can appreciate the idea of how having a question answered often leads to more questions. That's particularly true of history, which is never a simple enough matter to be summarized that easily, with a simple timeline and a few dozen paragraphs. That any my blind seething hatred for all things 1 & 2e... which is good to find out about, by the way, it'll clear up a lot of space on the bookshelfs now that I can throw all that old crap out. :tongue: Though to be honest, I'm not being serious about the gold elf thing. :) |
| Lord Karsus04-27-07, 06:50 PM | That any my blind seething hatred for all things 1 & 2e... which is good to find out about, by the way, it'll clear up a lot of space on the bookshelfs now that I can throw all that old crap out. :tongue: -I'll gladly take anything off your hands that you don't want, concerning 2e FR. ;) |
| Stigger04-27-07, 07:01 PM | Dunno... I have most of it, so... kinda bummed to find out I blindly, seethingly, uncontrollably hate it really, it could come in handy for reference at times. :( |
| BrennonGoldeye04-27-07, 09:04 PM | That's just one of the questions I see raised by LEoF, among many... Maybe I'm just a raving loony,:shifty:, but this is what makes LEoF such a great book for a DM. Inconsistencies breed a need to explore and clarify. Does that make sense, I've been gazing at one screen or another for 26 hours now... |
| Karsus the Mad04-27-07, 09:15 PM | I don't know. I didn't see anything but references to 'Vyshaantar' in the timeline, even before Aryvandaar became known as the Vyshaantar Empire. They use Vyshaani before and after the name-change. -14,700: Vyshaanti begin attempting to annex Miyeritar. -10,900: Aryvandaar becomes known as the Vyshaantar Empire. The term Vyshaantar wasn't used until -10,900. Before that, it uses Vyshaanti everytime it's always referencing House Vyshaan specifically. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 09:15 PM | That's the reason I liked it too... doesn't change that you are a raving loony, just a raving loony I happen to agree with. Not sure what that says about me though. :D |
| Lord Karsus04-27-07, 10:23 PM | -It takes one to know one? -Anyway, if this thread (and it's sister thread) have acconplished one thing, no one had better spell "Ilythiir" and "Aryvandaar" incorrectly every again. ;) |
| MaskedOne04-28-07, 01:09 AM | -Nationalistic Japanese and Germans have pride in their respective countries, but don't (usually) agree with, or make excuses for what those two states did during the Second World War. Will I overly irritate people if I ask that we table the World War 2 references? Sorry, I'm normally among the last to complain about real world discussion, arguing is more fun and more effective for venting but I don't think anyone wants me to go into a rant about the 2 legged vermin that made up a decent portion of the Nazi regime or to hear that in some ways the Japanese were worse and I'm not particularly in the mood to start into the subject of prominent US citizens who were rather supportive of Hitler so can we table that time period, please? I know it's a popular and easy comparison but there are downsides to having an old soldier that studies history, particularly the Holocaust, as a father. NO ONE will appreciate me coming within 10 leagues of a vague reference to a variety of events from that conflict. |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 01:13 AM | Well, MaskedOne, I think I'm starting to get in the same mood/mindset about the Crown Wars, myself. ;) |
| Stigger04-28-07, 07:22 AM | Doesn't bother me much Masked One... too many misconceptions about that war as it is. And it takes way too much to explain things in their proper context... and far too easy to sound like an apologist when its the last thing on your mind. |
| Lord Karsus04-28-07, 07:51 PM | Will I overly irritate people if I ask that we table the World War 2 references? -That really wasn't a reference to WWII. It was a mention, but I was actually referencing today! And, if it counts, I was saying that they were the bad guys... |
| MarkusTay6304-28-07, 08:04 PM | Markus, however, was basically saying that we were Pro-Gold Elf regardless of actual written facts - which is very different than talking about possible interpretations. His ignoring, or perhaps simply answering in ways that were so disconnected from, our original points, his flippancy, and his seemingly blatant lack of objectivity (perhaps as a direct result of the previous two), were much (and I expect will always be) more irritating, to me. That's just not how formal debate in Western society goes (for good reason).Dan, I'm very VERY sorry you feel this way. :( I just posted in the other thread that I am no longer going to bother with that topic (just like I stopped defending the Orcs awhile back). It's just plain silly to get worked-up over races that don't really exist. In my own defense, in the 15 years I owned my own construction I was asked to be a 'professional witness' TEN times! Why so many times you ask? Because I so handily won the first case for that lawyer that I got a 'reputation' of being able to chew people up in a court room. Not that it was very hard, mind you, few construction workings are as brilliant as me. :D 'Brilliant', as in "I can twist your words around you until you are red in the face". I also gained a bit of reputation with other companies as a 'traitor', but when someone does shoddy work they really deserve what they get. I am so good at misdirection that one guy went to physically attack me in the courtroom - needless to say I won right there. Perhaps I missed my true calling, but Law School seemed to be too much of a bother for my free spirit. :P Anyhow, there is very fine line between 'prevarication' and 'spin-doctor'. So don't get your panties in a bunch... and maybe I'll even introduce you to my gay Brother-in-Law... the one that's 6'2" with blond hair and blue eyes. ;) |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 08:32 PM | Heh. I can twist peoples' emotions pretty well. I had to write a testimony for a case my mother had, and her lawyer was absolutely stunned and 'moved' by what I wrote as of 15-16 years old. I just think it's low, illogical, regressive, dirty, and plain-old slimy to do so. Anyone who uses loaded language or is 'charismatic' in their manner of speaking I immediately dislike, for using emotions rather than logical analysis to try to make people come to decisions. So, suffice it to say, your methodology of 'debate' doesn't work so well on me. ;) Unless you offer me hot guys. And I think your brother in law is probably too old for me... |
| MarkusTay6304-28-07, 08:55 PM | Heh. I can twist peoples' emotions pretty well. I had to write a testimony for a case my mother had, and her lawyer was absolutely stunned and 'moved' by what I wrote as of 15-16 years old. I just think it's low, illogical, regressive, dirty, and plain-old slimy to do so. Anyone who uses loaded language or is 'charismatic' in their manner of speaking I immediately dislike, for using emotions rather than logical analysis to try to make people come to decisions. So, suffice it to say, your methodology of 'debate' doesn't work so well on me. ;) Unless you offer me hot guys. And I think your brother in law is probably too old for me... I still think of him as a kid... he's 29. And trust me, I AM that good. The English language is such a wonderful tool, and so easily twisted to one's own ends. A flippant comment here, an adjective there, a few innuendoes... I made a living for 15 years talking people into work they didn't need just by pushing the right buttons. Of course, they always received the highest quality work for the best price, but it was always the 'sell' that reeled 'em in. And I'm not slimey at all, my skin is actually rather dry. Perhaps it is my moisturizer... |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 09:05 PM | Oh, I'm sure you're that good. It's just that when it comes to manipulating my emotions in any way, I immediately get 'turned off.' So I'm just saying why what you're doing, when trying to discuss things with me, seems low and dirty. I argue only with logic, and dismiss everything else. ;) 29? Booo! Old! |
| MarkusTay6304-28-07, 09:13 PM | Oh, I'm sure you're that good. It's just that when it comes to manipulating my emotions in any way, I immediately get 'turned off.' So I'm just saying why what you're doing, when trying to discuss things with me, seems low and dirty. I argue only with logic, and dismiss everything else. ;) 29? Booo! Old!29's a little boy to me. ;) Anyway, sorry if I upset you. When I first came on these boards it seemed like there were maybe 4-5 pro-drow types, and everyone else hated them. The Gold Elves, on the other hand, farted roses. So I found myself a mission... :plotting: By the end of that thread, I think only two of you were anti-drow. Now I'm bored. My intentions were never really to prove the Illythiir were good, but rather to show people there are two sides to every story. I could have just as easily sided with the Gold Elves... I truly have no emotional connections either way. Did you guys really think I liked foul-smelling Orcs in that other thread? :cool: |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 09:17 PM | And... That's the reason why arguing with emotional language is not very conducive to trying to analyze canon. Because it can go either way! That's NOT what I was trying to do. I fully admitted the Vyshaanti's evil and corruption, but in no where in canon did it speak of Aryvandaari society as a whole, or even parts of it other than the Vyshaanti, specifically falling to evil. So, as far as I'm concerned, when trying to logically follow canon as written and not extrapolate any further, that's the truth. That's the end of it. Period. I wasn't trying to tell people how they should fill in the blanks, only to discuss what was printed. And this, in large part, is one of the reasons why I either want 3E to tell us MORE or LESS about certain topics. PS: I'm 22. I feel so old. :( |
| Lord Karsus04-28-07, 09:22 PM | -Well, it looks like my job is done...:) |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 09:24 PM | You had a job? |
| MaskedOne04-28-07, 09:26 PM | -That really wasn't a reference to WWII. It was a mention, but I was actually referencing today! And, if it counts, I was saying that they were the bad guys... Wasn't objecting to your statement in general just to the reference. Even your's, though, my first instinct is to question just how much they know of that period to disapprove of because Germany at least tried hard (one of the things that severely irritates me) and I don't know just how much they've abandoned the idea of doctoring history. |
| Lord Karsus04-28-07, 09:26 PM | -I was behind the scenes, manipulating everyone, so that we'd all become a happy family again. |
| MarkusTay6304-28-07, 09:27 PM | And... That's the reason why arguing with emotional language is not very conducive to trying to analyze canon. Because it can go either way! That's NOT what I was trying to do. I fully admitted the Vyshaanti's evil and corruption, but in no where in canon did it speak of Aryvandaari society as a whole, or even parts of it other than the Vyshaanti, specifically falling to evil. So, as far as I'm concerned, when trying to logically follow canon as written and not extrapolate any further, that's the truth. That's the end of it. Period. I wasn't trying to tell people how they should fill in the blanks, only to discuss what was printed. And this, in large part, is one of the reasons why I either want 3E to tell us MORE or LESS about certain topics. PS: I'm 22. I feel so old. :(I wasn't even married yet at 22, and was renting a beach house with two of my best buds (one of them gay, BTW). Oh what fun... to be 22 again... :cloud9: I never got upset with YOU at all in that thread, and even mentioned you made valid points. It was someone' else constant insistance that there simply was NO OTHER WAY to see things. Obviously there was... But thats neither here nor there, I prefer the 'holes' in the history because it allows every DM to see the races the way he wants, and everyone's idea of the Realms is a little different. That's what I love about these boards, I've had my own concepts turned upside down and replaced several times since coming here. No matter how clever I think I am, some else always comes up with a different angle. I LOVE that. |
| Lord Karsus04-28-07, 09:29 PM | Wasn't objecting to your statement in general just to the reference. Even your's, though, my first instinct is to question just how much they know of that period to disapprove of because Germany at least tried hard (one of the things that severely irritates me) and I don't know just how much they've abandoned the idea of doctoring history. -Don't know, but both the German and Japanese governments have since formally apologized to those whom they wronged during the war. Yeah, not that a formal apology really brings people back to life, families back together, and so on, but... |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 09:30 PM | I guess I've never had that. I tend to accept information like this: I look at information, analyze it, decide what is 'true.' If someone presents me with additional information, I analyze it again, and decide again. I really don't pay any attention to how the information's said, only the viability of it and the source. That's why this entire argument was really being so frustrating, I think. You were highlighting what WASN'T said in canon, and we were highlighting more what WAS. |
| MaskedOne04-28-07, 09:54 PM | -Don't know, but both the German and Japanese governments have since formally apologized to those whom they wronged during the war. Yeah, not that a formal apology really brings people back to life, families back together, and so on, but... They've probably abandoned the doctoring of history for the most part. That instinct was restrained originally as much because it's a mostly out of date reference as being the beginning of an off topic rant. The subject just reminds me of things about history that while I value the knowledge, I really don't want to think about and none of you want to watch me rant about. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 10:14 PM | Problem I had with it was that the things that were said left too many unanswered questions, so it rather forced the things that weren't said to be considered. Kinda a variation on the blind men and the elephant thing for me really. |
| GothicDan04-29-07, 12:13 PM | I guess that's one way of getting around what the designers were actually trying to say. ;) |
| Stigger04-29-07, 12:33 PM | Unfortunately, that word trying is the sticking point. You think they were trying to say one thing in very definite terms, I see them saying that there is room for interpretation to suit individual campaign ideas... |
| GothicDan04-29-07, 01:37 PM | There you go again. ;) |
| Stigger04-29-07, 07:25 PM | Indeed true... Mr. Obstinate :tongue: |
| GothicDan04-29-07, 11:21 PM | Quit being so argumentative! Geeez! Why can't we just all live in peace?! |
| Stigger04-30-07, 01:10 AM | I'm sure the Ilythiiri and Aryvandaaran commoners were asking the same question... :tongue: |
| Lord Karsus04-30-07, 08:26 AM | I'm sure the Ilythiiri and Aryvandaaran commoners were asking the same question... :tongue: -Before or after they all adopted demonic patrons, if indeed, they all adopted demonic patrons? |
| Karsus the Mad04-30-07, 09:28 AM | Quit being so argumentative! Geeez! Why can't we just all live in peace?! Chaos through warfare. Evolution through bloodshed. Perfection through victory. Oh wait, wrong setting:embarrass |
| MarkusTay6304-30-07, 10:09 AM | That's why this entire argument was really being so frustrating, I think. You were highlighting what WASN'T said in canon, and we were highlighting more what WAS.It's called "Reasonable Doubt", Dan. And since the Dark ELves have retained me as their attorney (:P ) I have to establish that. It's how the system works - as long as we can find ANY reason why they wouldn't be guilty, then you cannot punish them. As a famous Chultan Lawyer once said - "If the Crown of Thorns don't fit, you have to equit" :D ;) |
| MaskedOne04-30-07, 10:51 AM | It's called "Reasonable Doubt", Dan. And since the Dark ELves have retained me as their attorney (:P ) I have to establish that. It's how the system works - as long as we can find ANY reason why they wouldn't be guilty, then you cannot punish them. As a famous Chultan Lawyer once said - "If the Crown of Thorns don't fit, you have to equit" :D ;) We're into modifying the justice system? Before you start handing out auto-aquittals, you need to make certain that the reason is plausible to at least one juror and that's just to get a mistrial. You need 12 jurors for a full aquittal. A locked jury and mistrial means the DA gets to try again. Unless of course your clients are forfeiting their right to a trial by jury, they wouldn't be that polite would they? |
| GothicDan04-30-07, 11:39 AM | Mmm, law. *Goes back to quantum mechanics homework.* |
| MarkusTay6304-30-07, 04:36 PM | I was, of course, being fecetious... and I probably spelled that word wrong... :rolleyes: |
| Stigger04-30-07, 05:06 PM | -Before or after they all adopted demonic patrons, if indeed, they all adopted demonic patrons? Who adopted them? The nobles, whom we already know about, or the commoners, whom we haven't a clue about? Or is it safe to assume that the nobility and leadership is the true reflection of any given nation now? ;) Though on the whole law thing, I'm not sure its quite that complicated in Faerun... Besides, why not have it tried in Waterdeep where we aren't allowed lawyers, but where we are allowed professional witnesses? :tongue: |
| Philalexandros04-30-07, 06:41 PM | For you, Stigger: Pg 11, Cormanthyr * These are dark elves from before the Crown Wars; once the Crown Wars begin, the dark elves degenerate swiftly and solely into the worship of Lolth and other dark powers such as Vhaerun and Ghaunadar. Not "nobles." Not "some dark elves." *The* dark elves. We very much do have a clue about them. Once more, there's a big difference between "room for doubt" and shoving your own concepts in. ;) PS: I also like the use of the word "solely" there. Of course, I'm also waiting for Stigger to argue that, since they're not specifically disqualified by the canon text, that the greater majority of the Ilythiiri commoners must have been atheists, and thus technically not evil. :D |
| Stigger04-30-07, 07:14 PM | Nope, no such arguement from me... and I have read that particular passage by the way. My problem is that if Lolth is sending her little minions in to corrupt the nobles, by what process did the commoners come under her sway... that seems a big, glaring, unanswered question. That they did eventually isn't really open to debate, since that's well established fact. My question is if the commoners fell into line with the nobility and those dark powers before or after the Descent. Since the texts in general only refer to the Ilythiiri in a remarkably vague way, I see that as being a valid question. That the nobles began worshipping those dark powers and demonic entities is explained. Even the whys of it, which are certainly logical reasons. But why would the commoners do it, since they certainly don't receive much benefit from it? Was the culture set up so that you worshipped the same deity as your local lord, without much choice in the matter? Did they go willingly into that darkness, or did they do it because their nobles held their lives over their heads if they didn't? You seem willing to accept it at face value that they were all evil and corrupt to begin with, and just needed a nudge to finally plunge into the abyss. Having studied history, and the methods used by the Church and secular rulers to 'convert' the locals (the Reconquista of Moorish Spain in particular coming to mind, and pretty much the Inquisition in general, though not the pop-culture version of it, the actual one that was more concerned with heresy rather than the witchcraft (interestingly, believing in witchcraft was itself a heresy for a substantial period) craze Kramer and Sprenger started with the Malleus Maleficarum, which was mostly secular in nature), I have a hard time accepting that at face value. Hence my question as to if the Descent was actually a deserved fate for the commoners, at the time. |
| MaskedOne04-30-07, 07:34 PM | I was, of course, being fecetious... and I probably spelled that word wrong... :rolleyes: Shrug, and the question at the end of my response was the closest thing I've come to humor on this thread in recent history. I'm still waiting to know if your clients have decided to abdicate their right to trial by jury.:) Stigger: Markus didn't specify a court, so I'm pulling my limited understanding of modern U.S. court in. It's almost fair to him. If I were being vindictive, then I'd take his failure to specify a court as an excuse for me to do so. In which case, I invoke Spanish Inquisition rules of evidence. I gather accusations from anyone who chooses to tender them. I am not obligated or even expected to inform Markus of who accuses his clients of stated crimes. The drow get a chance to list the names (I mean names here, they may not simply write "the rest of the world") of those who might lie about them. If I do not have two witnessesses that are not on the drow list then I probably drop the case. If I do have two untainted witnesses then the presumption is guilty until proven innocent and creative measures may be applied to aquire confessions. Please note, being a paranoid annoyance of an inquisitor, the defendents will be incarcerated until the matter is resolved and I will not be permitting summoned allies, access to gov.'t records, modern tech and/or other contraband yet to be determined. Therefore if the drow intend to try and name the majority of the population of Toril then they will be under my care and supervision for a very long time.:) |
| Stigger04-30-07, 07:38 PM | Wouldn't that require a change of venue from Realmspace to Earthspace? And who do we petition for that? And are we getting Court TV to televise it so we can watch from the comfort of our own homes? :tongue: |
| MaskedOne04-30-07, 08:15 PM | I have dispensation from AO to run the court as I see fit unless a specific venue is pushed for. A more important requirement is a prosecutor because unless the drow wish Inquisition rules, the judge may not normally operate as prosecutor and I vastly prefer judge to prosecuting attorney. So who is prosecuting? I refuse unless someone is dense enough to ask for the Inquisition. There will be no cameras in my court room by the way. |
| Philalexandros04-30-07, 10:01 PM | Nope, no such arguement from me... and I have read that particular passage by the way. My problem is that if Lolth is sending her little minions in to corrupt the nobles, by what process did the commoners come under her sway... Good question. Undoubtedly, the amount of time in question and the environment the demonically-invested houses created were the prime factors in driving this change. My question is if the commoners fell into line with the nobility and those dark powers before or after the Descent. Since the texts in general only refer to the Ilythiiri in a remarkably vague way, I see that as being a valid question. Well, the timeline specifically cites this as happening prior to the Descent. That much is clear. When it says "the dark elves did X", I think that too is rather clear. Obviously the process was gradual, though, otherwise there would be no need to qualify a time period and the "one by one" process of corruption. But why would the commoners do it, since they certainly don't receive much benefit from it? See above. I think the environment set up the leaders was a driving factor for the conversion of their followers. As for benefit, Drow aren't necessarily born evil. It's obvious that cultural indoctrination drives their moral choices. Is there any tangible benefit in participating in a sexist theocracy where death is the most likely penalty for any affront? No... but hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Drow participate in such a society all the same. Where the Ilythiiri are concerned, their conversion was not an overnight matter... and thus not as contrived as one might think. You seem willing to accept it at face value that they were all evil and corrupt to begin with, and just needed a nudge to finally plunge into the abyss. By no means, no! What I assert is that the Ilythiiri, a warlike and aggressive culture, ultimately had to deal with the fact that their progenitor deity had succumbed to evil. Over a period of thousands of years, this factor broke into the fiber of their society, as a number of Houses turned to the worship of fell powers. Come the Crown Wars, the stated envy of the Ilythiiri (probably just along the lines of power) led to more and more of their kind to turn to an alternate source of power (demons). This culminated with the arrival of Wendonai and the total (as stated) fall of their society to Lolth & co--a process that took approximately about 5 centuries or so. Did I just make up a sentence? Yes. All of the above specifically refer to stated happenings in the timeline, though, and I didn't need to add anything in it to make it sound plausible (I think?). |
| Stigger05-01-07, 02:01 AM | Depending on how you define an elven generation, it either makes a lot of sense or no sense... going by a 100 years per generation estimate, it makes complete sense, and is a very good theory really. I'd tend towards a 150-200 year generational cycle, which would make the timeline make very little sense in most respects, and far too fast a transition. Got a feeling the devs are going by the 100 year generational cycle though... so overall its a pretty good theory really. Though I'm still not all that comfortable with the commoners transition aspect, as it makes several shaky assumptions on their willingness to 'go evil' and abandon the Seldarine, or at the least seeming complacency in being corrupted. The impression I usually got from the descriptions of the Ilythiiri nobility wasn't exactly one of Machiavellian manipulators, but rather brute force near savages, so the slow corruption thing seems an odd tactic for them, though not necessarily for Wendonai, but a lot of that depends on how much power he actually exercised over the day to day life of the citizens. Too many unanswered questions for my liking still, but at least its a better framework to operate from. :) |
| GothicDan05-02-07, 01:25 PM | Remember that Araushnee was their patron goddess, and she was evil before she was cast out of the Seldarine and before the Crown Wars. And she was also a goddess of fate. I would hardly discount whatever influence she may have, at one time or another, in one form or another, had over the moral path of Dark Elves as a whole (not just the nobles). Given that the Dark Elves of Ilythiir were also heavily into slavery (as shown in the Evermeet novel), this would have given their own subrace in large part a limited form of 'nobility,' and thus at least some ability to engage in decadence and prosperity through service to more powerful, dark forces (be it fiends directly or demon-worshipping nobles to which they were loyal). As has been pointed out in another thread, it might be a set up similar to Thay (where all Mulan, not just the Red Wizards, tend to not be good), only worse due to direct demonic/divine interest and centuries (millennia) of indoctrination. |
| Stigger05-02-07, 04:09 PM | Never read Evermeet... just can't ever quite bring myself to read most novels, with a couple of exceptions here and there. Though I don't think Araushnee was evil, just misunderstood and angry... it was totally Corellons fault, as he's really the closet evil one who drove her to it. ;) |
| GothicDan05-02-07, 04:34 PM | I don't know. Trying to get your CHILDREN to assassinate your husband, their father, when he had done nothing to harm you, is pretty evil. As is bringing an army of foreign evil deities in an invasion of your home (Arborea) and trying to conquer your former friends and family. I typically only read novels written by Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham. I've considered reading Kemp's, but from what I've heard, they diverge a little too far from canon for my taste (a D&D novel both has to be continuous with former lore as well as at least adequately written for me to read it, and even then, it's a little iffy). |
| BrennonGoldeye05-02-07, 08:20 PM | I don't know. Trying to get your CHILDREN to assassinate your husband, their father, when he had done nothing to harm you, is pretty evil. As is bringing an army of foreign evil deities in an invasion of your home (Arborea) and trying to conquer your former friends and family. Stigger, you really should pick up the novel. It's a great read. I promise.:D I typically only read novels written by Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham. I've considered reading Kemp's, but from what I've heard, they diverge a little too far from canon for my taste (a D&D novel both has to be continuous with former lore as well as at least adequately written for me to read it, and even then, it's a little iffy). :rolleyes: |
| Stigger05-03-07, 02:19 AM | You know, for some bizarre and unfathomable reason, I associate Elaine Cunningham with a very bad period of my life... no idea why, as I've never read a snippet of her work. Strange those associations we can make... might have to read it simply to conquer a strange quirk of mine. To Dan, why wouldn't she get her kids to help stand up to an abusive and evil dad like the Big C? She was obviously trying to help them break the pattern of abuse he had ingrained into them. And of course she got outside help from those other dieities, even they could see that Corellon was being abusive and simply staged an intervention that he turned into huge deal of you're either with me or against me and making everyone choose sides and get all aggro... I can't believe you're siding with that abusive pointy-eared misogynistic bastard... :( |
| GothicDan05-03-07, 02:34 AM | Blah blah blah, whine whine whine! |
| Stigger05-03-07, 02:39 AM | Misogynistic Dan, the Heartless will be my new name for you... :tongue: |
| GothicDan05-03-07, 02:45 AM | Well, I do hate the wimmins, that's true! Gross, I tell you! |
| Stigger05-03-07, 02:47 AM | See... evil, evil, evil Dan... just like Corellon. :tongue: |
| Krash05-03-07, 07:17 AM | I've considered reading Kemp's, but from what I've heard, they diverge a little too far from canon for my taste (a D&D novel both has to be continuous with former lore as well as at least adequately written for me to read it, and even then, it's a little iffy). Paul Kemp does his research as well as anyone writing in the FR line today. I can't think of any aspects of his novels that I've considered to be "un-canonical". He has a deep respect for the setting - check out his latest blog post as evidence. -- George Krashos |
| Lord Karsus05-03-07, 09:29 AM | Paul Kemp does his research as well as anyone writing in the FR line today. I can't think of any aspects of his novels that I've considered to be "un-canonical". He has a deep respect for the setting - check out his latest blog post as evidence. -- George Krashos -I'm going to have to agree there. |
| GothicDan05-03-07, 01:19 PM | Paul Kemp does his research as well as anyone writing in the FR line today. I can't think of any aspects of his novels that I've considered to be "un-canonical". He has a deep respect for the setting - check out his latest blog post as evidence. -- George Krashos Perhaps. I really did not like what I saw of some of his perceptions of canon, and how to represent certain aspects of the Realms (sexuality, gender roles, and bisexuality/homosexuality), over at a Candlekeep discussion. That initially gave me a very poor taste in my mouth. But instead of going on and on about him, I mostly remain silent and avoid his work so that I don't feel the urge to critisize it... Mostly because I DO believe he truly is a talented writer, so I don't want to be offensive in any way. As to "anyone writing in the Realms today".... I'm not sure that's a particularly poignant comparison, unless you're including people like Ed, Elaine, and Steven here. But, of course, this is bordering dangerously close on novel discussion. So I'll leave this up to PMs if anyone wants to continue. |
| Krash05-03-07, 07:22 PM | As to "anyone writing in the Realms today".... I'm not sure that's a particularly poignant comparison, unless you're including people like Ed, Elaine, and Steven here. Well, I can expand that to state, IMO, "and as well as if not better than those who have gone before him". -- George Krashos |
| GothicDan05-04-07, 08:04 AM | Well, I can expand that to state, IMO, "and as well as if not better than those who have gone before him". Well, I certainly do trust your knowledge of canon lore. I just saw a lot of personal projection of ethics/morals into how he Mr. Kemp felt the general culture of FR functioned regarding the topics of the aforementioned thread at Candlekeep. It struck a very bad nerve, on a purely personal level. |
| MarkusTay6305-04-07, 03:58 PM | More 'writer's personal views being reflected in their writing'? C'mon Dan, we both know that doesn't happen... :P I have even found a city in the Realms ruled by a pair of Lesbians, I believe in the Vilhon Reach (don't have my sources handy). I figure that little Tidbit should keep you happy for awhile. :D I even hear that Jarlaxle's been giving Artemis 'funny looks' lately.... :eek: You know those Drow... always 'pushing' the envelope. ;) |
| Zandilar05-04-07, 09:02 PM | Heya, I have even found a city in the Realms ruled by a pair of Lesbians, I believe in the Vilhon Reach (don't have my sources handy). I figure that little Tidbit should keep you happy for awhile. :D :P Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklin of Elversult (note, Yanseldara doesn't have a surname, so I'm not listing them like a married couple). Vaerana is described as Yanseldara's "consort" in FRCS. When FRCS first came out and people noticed that on the REALMS_L, there was a huge discussion with some people saying that "consort" meant "spouse of the ruler" and others maintaining that "consort" shared the same/similar meaning as "cohort" (which it can, see here (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consort), see definitions 4, 6, and 7)... In the end Sean K Reynolds said something along the lines of "it means what you want it to mean". No one ever confirmed that the word "consort" in that context meant lover/spouse. Yanseldara and Vaerana have appeared in ONE (1) novel, the Veiled Dragon (one of the Ruha novels - Ruha rocks!) - through out the novel, Yanseldara was unconscious, and Vaerana was beside herself trying to get her back - though it very much could just be interpreted as Vaerana's concern for her best friend. There's really only subtext if you read the novel in the context of FRCS, and even then I'm uncertian if I'm just making it up due to wishful thinking. On the other hand, ask Ed about homosexual and bisexual characters in the Realms, and they seem far more aparent. From the "true bisexual" Myrmeen Lhal (who in novels and short stories and in the context of the source material, we've only ever seen her involved with men, with no hints, subtextual or otherwise, that she is also attracted to women), through the Seven Sisters and the rest of the Chosen (who, lets face it, have lived long enough to have experimented extenisively with everything from bisexuality through to gender bending), to a variety of hints and mentions in source material (of a mostly subtextual "guess it yourself" or "blink and you'll miss it" variety). There are, aparently, no real taboos regarding homosexuality (or any expressions of sexuality) in the Realms, except for where lineage matters, it seems. Yet we don't ever see it. No true, completely certian reflections of homosexual, bisexual, or gender queer people in the Realms exist within the context of canon source material. All we have to go by is what Ed says, and while it might be enough for some, I'd sincerely like to see things change. (And NO please - NO MORE EVIL LESBIAN DROW!! I know I have a thing for female drow, but I'd love to see, just for once, a good aligned female lesbian drow who doesn't get killed or corrupted!) Ooh boy, it seems that's been boiling up again... :embarrass Sorry. Anyway, I'm certian depictions of lesbians and/or bisexual women wouldn't be enough for Dan, and I don't mean that in any negative way at all. I know that if I were him, they wouldn't be, either. It's kind of hard to explain... At least, not without going into a fully fledged rant about the tunnel vision of most heterosexuals, and how heteronormative our society is. I even hear that Jarlaxle's been giving Artemis 'funny looks' lately.... :eek: You know those Drow... always 'pushing' the envelope. ;) I always say, "just because so and so has only ever had relationships with the opposite gender, doesn't mean they aren't attracted to or are willing to have relationships with the same gender." Even in cases, like this, where the overwhelming evidence shows Artemis straight straight straight. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-04-07, 09:30 PM | Lets just lay it out. In the Realms there doesn't seem to be as much fear of sexuality as there is in our corner of the RW. I think it comes from having a Greater Goddess who protects love. If the homophobes had to deal with Sune, they wouldn't be quite as loud. Wish I could have opened a gate for Her to step through at quite a few military funerals lately. Wow, I think I could get Tempus and Sune to agree on something. :plotting: Tehehe....Hicks scrambling for cover shielding themselves with the signs that brought their doom. :evillaugh |
| MarkusTay6305-04-07, 10:51 PM | I don't want this thread to get shut down, buuuuut.... Without the Catholic church, or ANY other all-powerful oppressive Monotheistic religion permeating every aspect of society, the Realms evolved along very different lines culturally. You can't commit a 'sin', if there aren't any to commit, dig? Without one set of 'commandments', how do we base morality from one god to the next? People in the realms aren't immoral, they're Amoral. They do what they want with whom they want simply because there really isn'y any single unifying belief telling them that it's wrong. And please don't infer that I wouldn't understand. You have no idea who I am or who I hang with. I have probably had more gay male friends in my life then straight ones, not by any design mind you, it's simply the way it's worked out. To tell the truth, most of my friends have always been female, because I DO NOT enjoy the company of other guys most of the time. Strangely, Gay men don't tend to rub me the wrong way (no pun intended). Up until the time of my seperation a year ago my wife and I spent nearly every Tuesday night doing Karaoke at a gay bar... it's hard to find good Karaoke at a straight place. ;) I know that Lesbians and Gay men are two different things, and that unfortunately in our society one is considered more exceptable in general then the other. Personally, if I were in the Realms, I'd be hangin' out at Loviatar's gettin' my butt whipped... but to each his own. :D |
| Philalexandros05-04-07, 11:01 PM | Heck, they're not even amoral. Being that the majority of people on Faerun seem to subscribe to some deity or another, they simply have many moral compasses to choose from. We might consider some of their compasses to be amoral, but I doubt they would. I imagine that fervent worshippers of Tempus would reserve such labels for battlefield cowards or for strict non-participants. I imagine Sunite priests would view those who cannot appreciate beauty or love their fellow person amoral. And so on. :) |
| Zandilar05-05-07, 06:05 AM | Heya, And please don't infer that I wouldn't understand. You have no idea who I am or who I hang with. I have probably had more gay male friends in my life then straight ones, not by any design mind you, it's simply the way it's worked out. To tell the truth, most of my friends have always been female, because I DO NOT enjoy the company of other guys most of the time. Strangely, Gay men don't tend to rub me the wrong way (no pun intended). I'm not assuming anything... There is a fundamental level of understanding that we all lack of each other. We can only see what others are like from the outside looking in. None of us know what other people are thinking and feeling, or why they're thinking and feeling it. We can make guesses, but that's as far as it goes. *Zandilar is frustrated that words are starting to fail her* I don't really see what this has to do with the visibility of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered, or intersexed characters in the Forgotten Realms. The religions of the Realms, and their impact or not on the morality of the humans (and other races) of Abeir-Toril notwithstanding - the Realms can be as accepting as all heck, but if the publishers and authors and developers don't want to represent LGBTI people in the Realms, we won't see them... Except where some few people have fought tooth and nail to have them included, and even then... they're 2d stereotypes, or they're killed off or corrupted and then killed off, or their sexuality is only hinted at in a way that is easily ignored or dismissed, or they're names in a source book with nothing else to back them up, here today, gone tomorrow characters that you'll miss because someone higher up thinks that there would be some kind of backlash against their product, that might effect their sales. (Not like this hasn't happened before, but on the witchcraft/magic/pagan front - see B.A.D.D.) Myrmeen Lhal, someone Ed Greenwood himself said was bisexual, will never ever ever ever end up with a female partner in the canon. It... just... won't... happen. These are strong words, I know. I know I'm probably coming across as a militant feminist lesbian... But I don't know how else to put my feelings into words... It hurts, you know? You might think I'm being silly or something, but it does. Many gay people live their lives in fear, but it's not always a fear of being beaten up (though that is still a very real possibility everywhere even in this day and age)... it's a fear of not being treated as a human being. I'd say more about this, but I'm afraid it really is outside the topic of this forum. Personally, if I were in the Realms, I'd be hangin' out at Loviatar's gettin' my butt whipped... but to each his own. :D Loviatar is one of my favorites too, but I think she might be a little too extreme for my tastes. ;) I suspect I'd much rather live in Brightwater to be closer to Realms incarnation of my goddess (Tymora ;)), and Sharess who I'm very fond of too (I like Sune and Lliira and Waukeen too, so that's just icing on the cake)... Though I think I'd have to find a portal to Dweomerheart and I think Arvandor too (to hang out with other goddesses I'm fond of!). |
| Stigger05-05-07, 09:28 AM | As much as I'd love to disagree with you Zandilar... I can't quite bring myself to do so. It isn't going to change until the more reactionary conservative elements out there stop trying to poke their nose into everyone elses sexuality... which I'm not holding my breath for. I understand where you're coming from, and it sounds more like frustration to me, rather than militancy. I think it might actually be worse having some degree of social acceptability, but still not being generally accepted. It seemed easier back when there was more stigma and polarization attached to things, since it pulled the community much tighter together it seemed, so you had more people to rely on who could really understand. Kinda miss those days really... Not that I'm homosexual, but us freaks were generally assumed to be, so we got stuck in the same boat more often than not, and usually subjected to the same hatred and violence. |
| MarkusTay6305-05-07, 09:48 AM | Not that I'm homosexual, but us freaks were generally assumed to be, so we got stuck in the same boat more often than not, and usually subjected to the same hatred and violence.So true, Stig, so true. In HS I took Home Economics rather then shop, and got labbeled a fa__ot. So let me get this straight... I would rather be in a class room with THIRTY GIRLS then be in one with thirty guys and I'm the one they thought was gay? :uh-huh: I understand they call both of those classes something else these days, and males and females must take both. I guess, for once, the Gov't and I were in agreement about something. I guess my world veiw has never fit the 'norm', but I like it that way. I even dated 'outside my race' back in 70's, waaaay before it became fashionable. I'm not a rebel or anything, I have always just done what I like with whom I like and never really cared about other people's opinions. Kinda like those Miyeritar Dark Elves, who went against custom and built a peaceful advanced civilization despite their cultural tendencies toward agression and savagery. (Sorry, I know that last part was a stretch, but I needed to keep it on-topic some how). ;) |
| GothicDan05-05-07, 04:21 PM | the Realms can be as accepting as all heck, but if the publishers and authors and developers don't want to represent LGBTI people in the Realms, we won't see them That was my main issue in discussion tangent topics of certain novels. If the creator of the Realms says, "No, there's no bias against homosexuality/bisexuality in the Realms except in lineage ascensions," how exactly can one say otherwise? I'd rather just not read novels that would remind me of such sentiments, than read them and be made bitter. The representation of non-standard sexual characters in novels, or lack there of, really only bothers me when the novels otherwise show a tendency to specifically point out the sexual tendencies, in one way or another, of OTHER, straight characters. Otherwise, if we never know the orientation of anyone, who's to say who likes who? |
| Lord Karsus05-05-07, 07:06 PM | So true, Stig, so true. In HS I took Home Economics rather then shop, and got labbeled a fa__ot. So let me get this straight... I would rather be in a class room with THIRTY GIRLS then be in one with thirty guys and I'm the one they thought was gay? :uh-huh: -I hear you. I, for instance, played, among other things, the flute in JR HS and HS. Kinda like those Miyeritar Dark Elves, who went against custom and built a peaceful advanced civilization despite their cultural tendencies toward agression and savagery. (Sorry, I know that last part was a stretch, but I needed to keep it on-topic some how). ;) -Nice save. :) |
| Krash05-05-07, 09:33 PM | Kinda like those Miyeritar Dark Elves, who went against custom and built a peaceful advanced civilization despite their cultural tendencies toward agression and savagery. :D Hmm, interesting point re cultural tendencies. Very interesting indeed ... ;) -- George Krashos |
| MarkusTay6305-05-07, 09:52 PM | Yeah, sometimes I can play for both teams. ;) Don't get no ideas, Dan... :eek: |
| GothicDan05-05-07, 09:56 PM | You're old and fat, now! Even if you being a geek IS a plus, no way, man! ;) |
| Lord Karsus05-05-07, 10:05 PM | -Zing! :) |
| MarkusTay6305-06-07, 12:46 AM | You're old and fat, now! Even if you being a geek IS a plus, no way, man! ;)Plus, I got hemmoroids older then you. ;) |
| GothicDan05-06-07, 01:34 AM | Ewww! Grroosss! |
| Stigger05-06-07, 02:48 AM | Definite overshare... :blink: |
| Old Sage05-06-07, 05:01 AM | I definitely picked the wrong moment to return to this thread. :P |
| MarkusTay6305-06-07, 02:51 PM | Amazing how quickly these devolve into lockeroom banter; small wonder female gamers are an endangered species. ;) But in my own defense, and to get back on topic, I have never felt otherwise about the original dark Elves. Their savagery and competetiveness is what drove them out of Fäerie in the first place. At least, thats how I'm writing it. Like I keep saying, think 'Klingon' when you think pre-descent dark Elf - a proud and violent culture often driven to war because of 'slights' by others. Better to die then be captured and dishonored, brutal rights of passage, a strict 'warrior code'. In many people's eyes that might have made them seem evil, but not to themselves. They thought they were the most honorable of all the Elvish peoples; it's all a matter of cultural perspective. Thats why the Wilder Green Elves almost always sided with them - they were even more extreme then the greens and had similar beliefs! That's my take. I don't officially make them out to be saints, just misunderstood. When you think of Drizzt, think of Worf from Star Trek - agressive and perhaps a bit savage to humans, but they were both thought to be 'sissies' by their own cultural standards. Forever trapped between two worlds, their own primitive inner urges and their enlightened intelligence. I can come up with at least a hundred different earth cultures that did savage and ruthless things, and sometimes shocking and immoral, but none of those cultures considered themselves evil. But lets not get confused, Drow are a whole 'nother story, and 99.99% of THEM are irredeemable. |
| Philalexandros05-06-07, 03:22 PM | I don't know about that last line; 15% of them apparently are, according to Drow of the Underdark. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-06-07, 05:05 PM | Plus, I got hemmoroids older then you. ;) Ewww! Grroosss! Definite overshare... :blink: I definitely picked the wrong moment to return to this thread. :P This thread has morphed into 'Tay's sore no more?' |
| Zandilar05-06-07, 07:17 PM | Heya, I don't know about that last line; 15% of them apparently are, according to Drow of the Underdark. That jibes with Ed Greenwood's contention that Eilistraee's following is about 22% of all Drow in Faerun. (Mind you, that figure includes non-good worshippers, but excludes non-evil drow of deities other than the drow pantheon.) So it's not 99.99% are irredeemable, it's more like - no drow is irredeemable, given the right circumstances. |
| Philalexandros05-06-07, 07:53 PM | I would then go with Ed's estimate, of course. :) What that means, of course, is that in the years since DotU (1991), 7% of the Drow have converted to Eilistraee. The Dark Maiden's been busy! |
| Lord Karsus05-06-07, 08:00 PM | I would then go with Ed's estimate, of course. :) What that means, of course, is that in the years since DotU (1991), 7% of the Drow have converted to Eilistraee. The Dark Maiden's been busy! -Perhaps she had some foresight into the future, what, with Lolth going silent, and the events of the Lady Pentient Trilogy...I guess Eilistraee isn't as naive as everyone plays her off to be... |
| MarkusTay6305-07-07, 12:55 AM | If they are redeemable, then they are no longer "Dhaeroaw". The ones who are coming back into the light are simply finding their inner 'Dark Elf'. And of the redeemable ones, many of them are Vhaerun worshippers who are not neccessarily 'good', but rather just want to be left alone. Even the Eilistraee worshippers are very violent, from what I have read of them. They may be violent for the right reasons now, but they are still acting well within character of a dark Elf. And if you guys don't dig my 'agressively competitive' take on them, then what was that Siva game all about? ;) I haven't read those books at all, but they sound exactly like how I pictured them to be. And what the heck happened to the Albino drow mentioned in 2e DotU? Did they fall into the same blackhole as the Miyeritar Dark Elves? Maybe they're Sharn too... :bored: |
| Lord Karsus05-07-07, 08:36 AM | And what the heck happened to the Albino drow mentioned in 2e DotU? Did they fall into the same blackhole as the Miyeritar Dark Elves? Maybe they're Sharn too... :bored: -Lots of things seem to disappear every now and then. Maybe you can fashion some interesting excuse...They've established their own realm in the Underdark, to avoid persecution. |
| Philalexandros05-07-07, 09:24 AM | And of the redeemable ones, many of them are Vhaerun worshippers who are not neccessarily 'good', but rather just want to be left alone. Nope. Both the figures I and Zandilar cited are Eilistraee-worshippers exclusively. I imagine there might be a few that are also non-evil worshippers of surface deities (a-la Drizzt). Vheraunians are a separate group on their own. Of course, I could have misunderstood you, and you may have meant that, of the 78% remaining Drow, quite a few were non-Lolthite Vheraunian worshippers looking to be left alone. Even the Eilistraee worshippers are very violent, from what I have read of them. They may be violent for the right reasons now, but they are still acting well within character of a dark Elf. Which source are you looking at? The write-ups of the clergy and worshippers in Drow of the Underdark, Faiths and Pantheons, etc., point to a church that might be martial in outlook, but is big on redemptive morals and reconciliation. |
| Zandilar05-07-07, 11:17 PM | Heya, Which source are you looking at? The write-ups of the clergy and worshippers in Drow of the Underdark, Faiths and Pantheons, etc., point to a church that might be martial in outlook, but is big on redemptive morals and reconciliation. There's a reason why, in another thread, I said Eilistraee reminded me very much of the goddess Artemis. There have been at least two stories (Silverfall, and a short story I forget the title of), where a ritual of Eilistraee has been interrupted by Dove (Silverfall)/a human male mage (story I can't remember), and the priestesses (naked and angry) attacked the interloper quite viciously - only stopping in the former case because Qilue herself stepped in to defend her sister - I can't remember, for the life of me, what happened in the story I can't remember the title of. I think the extreme reactions may just be because it was private and sacred doings that got interrupted, though. But I can see why someone might get the impression that Eilistraee's followers are a touch on the violent side. |
| msatran05-07-07, 11:47 PM | Okay...as far as >I< know... four of the five creator races are Thaaluud (Tomb Tappers) Sarrukh Aarakocra (In their original, mightier state) (I have a LOT of trouble swallowing this one, but it is what it is, I don't make the world) Phaerimm BUT I DO KNOW THAT HUMANS ARE NOT ON THE LIST! Second, anyone want a magic tree again? (Just kidding) Third, regarding the whole elves/drow thing. I really hate to ask this. Because it's almost a ridiculous and stupid question. But can't you guys leave anything up to the GM, ever? This is one of those cases where you should leave people like Krash, Steven, and Ed alone, say stuff like "I'm the DM! I made it up!" Weird and mysterious stuff that happened in the past should be left alone for players to figure out if they want. Things unknown to the wisest of sages can be the subject of entire campaigns. By asking for everything to be known, you're taking the adventure out of the game. And isn't this a game about adventure? Yes, there are some things that don't make sense. But making sense of them is for the tabletop and the rolling of dice, that storytelling moment, that critical hit. I made Greater Doppelgangers a Phaerimm mistake gone rogue in my game. It was great. When the players had to choose between hunting Phaerimm and fighting their enemies, because their enemies believed that the best way to fight the Phaerimm was to breed powerful adventurers and then eat their brains, they had some SERIOUS thinking to do. The more mystery you take away, the less fun the realms becomes for those of us who are Dungeon Masters. So please, I beg of you, don't ask for every little answer anymore. Please...(whimper) Please... |
| Philalexandros05-08-07, 12:24 AM | Wait, I'm pretty sure you just asked, on behalf of your own freedom to choose, for us to not do as we choose for our own Realms. ;) |
| MarkusTay6305-08-07, 02:01 AM | Huh? :confused: Anyway, all of my experience with Eilistraee worshipers stem from novels, not sourcebooks. They tend to go around well armed and itchin' for a fight with just about anything that they deem as 'evil'. Except of course for female Drow, whom they don't even bother to watch very closely. So Phil, I'm not sure what your point was. Only the Eilistraee worshippers (and a few errant ones that worship human gods) are redeemable? There are no numbers for the Vhaeruanites at all? I can think of at least three very large groups of them that not only don't act evil, they even invite surface Elves and humans to join them as friends and allies. Even amongst the Lolthites, outside of the clergy I'm sure at least 1/3 of them would love to follow ANY other God (not that that would make them good in any way, but it would be a step in the right direction). |
| Krash05-08-07, 07:51 AM | The more mystery you take away, the less fun the realms becomes for those of us who are Dungeon Masters. We were conscious of just this fact as we wrote for "Grand History of the Realms". Some of the content reveals new lore; some expands upon old lore; some addresses old lore 'grey areas' (but I don't think we out and out provided any set in stone answers on most of them); some previous content we just simply left alone. As to the details - well, grab a copy in September and have a read. Even the most graying, old FR warhorse will find something new (and hopefully inspiring) inside its covers. -- George Krashos |
| Philalexandros05-08-07, 09:09 AM | Markus, I was kind of agreeing you regarding the percentages. I was stating that 22% of the Drow are Eilistraeean, and that of the remaining 78% there were obviously many that were Vhaeraunian (never mind worshippers of Kiaransalee, Ghaunadaur, etc.). Having read yours and Zandilar's posts, I retract my statement. It's obvious that there is new, more detailed data of the Eilistraeean priestesses that sheds new light on their attitudes and practices. :) |
| boards05-08-07, 09:22 AM | Heya, There's a reason why, in another thread, I said Eilistraee reminded me very much of the goddess Artemis. There have been at least two stories (Silverfall, and a short story I forget the title of), where a ritual of Eilistraee has been interrupted by Dove (Silverfall)/a human male mage (story I can't remember), and the priestesses (naked and angry) attacked the interloper quite viciously - only stopping in the former case because Qilue herself stepped in to defend her sister - I can't remember, for the life of me, what happened in the story I can't remember the title of. I think the extreme reactions may just be because it was private and sacred doings that got interrupted, though. But I can see why someone might get the impression that Eilistraee's followers are a touch on the violent side. Are you thinking of the story in Qilue's entry of the Seven Sisters book, where a mage from Waterdeep sees the priestesses and goes to attack them, with little success. |
| Stigger05-08-07, 09:41 AM | Okay...as far as >I< know... four of the five creator races are Thaaluud (Tomb Tappers) Sarrukh Aarakocra (In their original, mightier state) (I have a LOT of trouble swallowing this one, but it is what it is, I don't make the world) Phaerimm BUT I DO KNOW THAT HUMANS ARE NOT ON THE LIST! According to page 55 or Serpent Kingdoms, the Creator Races are listed as: * Sarrukh (progenitors of serpenfolk and scalykind) * Batrachi (progenitors of ampibious and piscine races, as well as dopplegangers) * Aearee (progentitors of avian races) * Fey (progenitors of the sylvan races) and... * Humans As to the rest of that... its a discussion on what the written lore says and means, and has absolutely no bearing on what anyone does at home. If you don't like something that shows up in canon, ignore it at home, I know I surely do with a number of things I find stupid, illogical, or just distasteful. |
| Karsus the Mad05-08-07, 10:23 AM | Okay...as far as >I< know... four of the five creator races are Thaaluud (Tomb Tappers) Sarrukh Aarakocra (In their original, mightier state) (I have a LOT of trouble swallowing this one, but it is what it is, I don't make the world) Phaerimm BUT I DO KNOW THAT HUMANS ARE NOT ON THE LIST! Where did you get that list? I really hate to ask this. Because it's almost a ridiculous and stupid question. But can't you guys leave anything up to the GM, ever? This is one of those cases where you should leave people like Krash, Steven, and Ed alone, say stuff like "I'm the DM! I made it up!" Meh. I haven't DM'd for over a year. I'm interested in the Realms purely for it's historical depth. As a DM, sure, I can make it all up on my own (and have in many cases). Then again, what's the point in gaming in an established setting with such a rich history when you're going to simply make up that which gives the setting it's history? Mystery is good for a campaign, but frankly, I feel the mystery should be created by the DM, not by others that have nothing to do with the campaign. As you say, make it up. It's far easier to make up mystery than it is history. I'd love for every year of FR to be detailed to the nth degree. That doesn't mean that I have to abide by it when I DM again. Neither does it mean it's impossible for me to make up a mystery. Neither does it take any mystery away. Now instead of asking the bland question of "What happened?", I can now ask a much more interesting question of "Why?";) Which basically boils down to me poking Krash with a pointy stick until he divulges everything his cortex contains:smirk: then silently moving onto the other designers:incog: |
| Lord Karsus05-08-07, 12:24 PM | According to page 55 or Serpent Kingdoms, the Creator Races are listed as: * Sarrukh (progenitors of serpenfolk and scalykind) * Batrachi (progenitors of ampibious and piscine races, as well as dopplegangers) * Aearee (progentitors of avian races) * Fey (progenitors of the sylvan races) and... * Humans -Grand History of the Realms and the various Candlekeep Compendiums are chock full of information about the Creator Races. |
| MarkusTay6305-08-07, 12:42 PM | We were conscious of just this fact as we wrote for "Grand History of the Realms". Some of the content reveals new lore; some expands upon old lore; some addresses old lore 'grey areas' (but I don't think we out and out provided any set in stone answers on most of them); some previous content we just simply left alone. As to the details - well, grab a copy in September and have a read. Even the most graying, old FR warhorse will find something new (and hopefully inspiring) inside its covers.Sounds perfect and I'm eagerly anticipating it. You may have noticed that I'm a history-vulture; I like to pick it's bones clean. :D I think you guys may have come up with a perfect blend. Most people seem to be in agreement that it's nice to have 'open-ends' left for developing our own plot-hooks, but if every 5-10 years of 'real time' those loose-ends are tied up in such a way as to leave 2 or 3 new mysteries in their place then that is perfect. This is how I have always seen the Realms, and they have yet to dissappoint. For every 'ancient secret' a band of adventurers discover, they unwittingly uncover information that leads to half-dozen brand new enigmas. Wheels within wheels, puzzles within puzzles... thats the Realms I know and love. :cool: @Phil - Sorry, wasn't being belligerant or anything, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say; thanks for clearing it up. And yes, the Eilistraee of source seem to be quite a different breed from those in the novels. At the end of WotSQ it demonstrates how the group has an 'at-war' mentality. They experience something akin to 'the rapture' when they except Eilistraee in their hearts, and once they do so they are EAGERLY willing to die for their godess to further her cause. The fact that they 'may' attack a Paladin on sight, but treat EVERY female Drow as a sister is a strange yet very realistic take on them, and I like it very much. Therein lies their weakness, and every well-portrayed 'hero' has one (even if said hero is actually a group). |
| msatran05-08-07, 01:12 PM | Well, I got the list off one of the Candlekeep compendiums, I believe, I think it's volume VII. I have no posting privelages, but I can still DOWNLOAD things and read them. Oh, and George, just because I don't like a lot of the stuff doesn't mean I won't buy it. Games need to be supported after all, and buying about 20 copies of that one is actually on my list. That's a "Everybody gets one" as far as my game is concerned. Will people write better backgrounds in my game? Hopefully, once they have it. |
| Lord Karsus05-08-07, 01:17 PM | Will people write better backgrounds in my game? Hopefully, once they have it. -Good luck with that one. Don't know about you, but I can't tell you how many three-sentence backgrounds I've gotten...:mad: |
| msatran05-08-07, 01:21 PM | Do they start with "I was born in the heart of a sun?" or "All my life, I yearned to seek the head of Vecna?" I've never personally gotten either of those, but I'm sure out there there's some DM who has. |
| Lord Karsus05-08-07, 01:29 PM | Do they start with "I was born in the heart of a sun?" or "All my life, I yearned to seek the head of Vecna?" I've never personally gotten either of those, but I'm sure out there there's some DM who has. -No, luckily they were never that bad! |
| Stigger05-09-07, 04:14 AM | Kinda have mixed feelings on the Candlekeep Compendiums really... but regardless, published lore tends to kinda trump them just a wee bit. :) Anyone ever gotten the 'Well, there was this drunken hin and a lonely half orc who went out drinking one night...' opening to histories? That one made me shudder... |
| Fabius Maximus05-09-07, 07:15 AM | Well, I got the list off one of the Candlekeep compendiums, I believe, I think it's volume VII. I have no posting privelages, but I can still DOWNLOAD things and read them. The Compendium VII only speaks of Aearee, Batrachi, Sarrukh and Fey. No Thaalud or Phaerimm. |
| Lord Karsus05-09-07, 09:01 AM | Kinda have mixed feelings on the Candlekeep Compendiums really... but regardless, published lore tends to kinda trump them just a wee bit. :) -Agreed. Anyone ever gotten the 'Well, there was this drunken hin and a lonely half orc who went out drinking one night...' opening to histories? That one made me shudder... -Sort of, and man did I have fun with that one. My players (this was a while ago) didn't really have backstories, but they were busying drinking at a tavern (The town they all came from was known for it's fine brews). One character off-handedly mentioned that they were all drinking to excess. So, I stated that they suddenly found themselves in a cart, with a stranger driving it. Apparently, while they were drunk, they swore to aid a small village with it's Dragon problem (or something like that). |
| Stigger05-09-07, 09:25 AM | Hmmm... that ones never occurred to me to do to my little victims... er, players. Gotta give that one a whirl just to see their faces. :evillaugh |
| Lord Karsus05-09-07, 09:35 AM | Hmmm... that ones never occurred to me to do to my little victims... er, players. Gotta give that one a whirl just to see their faces. :evillaugh -It certainly illicited some interesting responses, and made them a lot more careful about what they off-handedly said. |
| Iakhovas05-09-07, 09:47 AM | Regarding the creator races: In the coming months you may find that particular tidbits of lore which first appeared in a Candlekeep Compendium see print in an official product. I strongly encourage all fans of the Realms to read the Compendium or even better... contribute to it. |
| Old Sage05-09-07, 11:06 AM | Agreed. Kinda have mixed feelings on the Candlekeep Compendiums really... but regardless, published lore tends to kinda trump them just a wee bit. :)What exactly are your problems with the Compendium? We're always seeking constructive feedback -- whether positive or negative -- from readers... so if you have particular concerns about the Volumes themselves or the material contained within, head on over to Candlekeep and let us know. |
| Fabius Maximus05-09-07, 11:34 AM | Agreed. What exactly are your problems with the Compendium? We're always seeking constructive feedback -- whether positive or negative -- from readers... so if you have particular concerns about the Volumes themselves or the material contained within, head on over to Candlekeep and let us know. Well, apart from the really bad editing of the first edition, it's fine. ;) |
| Stigger05-09-07, 06:17 PM | Partially its the PDF format... I kinda have a love/hate relationship with PDFs, so that does tend to color things from the start. ;) Otherwise, a lot of it I can't fault in a lot of respects, its just that most of it doesn't suit my own perceptions of the Realms in a lot of respects. For example, the Lords of Waterdeep articles, while fairly well written and generally good, but I thought of as kind of superfluous since those should be thought up by DM's for their own purposes, at least in my opinion. Maybe some people found it really useful, which is great for them, it just didn't suit me. Which kinda tends to be the case for me with most of the articles, a lot of it just doesn't quite mesh with what I would find useful, if that makes any sense. :) But hey, I'm an admitted and avowed freak with some odd ideas, so... :D |
| Prince Indirian05-09-07, 06:25 PM | Concerning the numbers of Eilistareens 12% of those 22 exclusivly worshipped "Eili", the rest worshipeed a whole bunch. Ed explained tha in the realms this sort of worship was common. |
| MarkusTay6305-09-07, 07:42 PM | I take everything written as 'one man's opinion', as per the old 2e method of presenting lore. even if it's source, novel, compendium, or even (good) fan-fiction, I figure everything has a place. Its like the game telephone (or even RW history) - its 'tainted' by each retelling. Therefore everything and anything is possible. :D I read EVERYTHING and just sift out the stuff I want. It doesn't mean I don't like the rest. Even some of the crazier ideas in the 'what if' threads inspire me. What if you took one of those 'dark' future scenarios, and sent your CURRENT heroes there? After seeing what the world will be like, they get sent back to make sure it DOESN'T HAPPEN that way. That means every single crazy bizarro concept can be used to scare your players into fixing things. It could be the entire basis for a campaign. ;) "Must... stop... Shar....." :crazy: |
| Old Sage05-09-07, 08:44 PM | Partially its the PDF format... I kinda have a love/hate relationship with PDFs, so that does tend to color things from the start. ;) Otherwise, a lot of it I can't fault in a lot of respects, its just that most of it doesn't suit my own perceptions of the Realms in a lot of respects. For example, the Lords of Waterdeep articles, while fairly well written and generally good, but I thought of as kind of superfluous since those should be thought up by DM's for their own purposes, at least in my opinion. Maybe some people found it really useful, which is great for them, it just didn't suit me. Which kinda tends to be the case for me with most of the articles, a lot of it just doesn't quite mesh with what I would find useful, if that makes any sense. :) But hey, I'm an admitted and avowed freak with some odd ideas, so... :DStig, do you mind if I take your concerns to the Compendium discussion forum over at Candlekeep? There's some points here that likely need to be addressed by the authors themselves... |
| Stigger05-10-07, 01:15 AM | Nah, don't mind at all... though I'm not sure how helpful it would be really. I kinda avoid CK in general actually... the color scheme makes my eyes hurt for some reason. :) |